326: Why People-First Cultures Win in 2026 with Kat Ortiz

In this episode, John is joined by industrial-organizational psychologist Kat Ortiz to break down how evidence-based practices can transform workplace culture, leadership effectiveness, and employee experience in ways that genuinely support performance and growth.

Kat’s unconventional career journey sets the stage. From earning her GED and starting college in her thirties to choosing IO psychology over the therapy path, she shares how she learned to change systems at scale rather than support individuals one at a time. Her insights reveal why psychological safety, emotionally intelligent leadership, and inclusive design are not optional if organizations want to thrive in 2026 and beyond.

We look closely at what IO psychologists do and how their work shows up in real workplaces. Kat explains how better hiring practices, leadership development programs that actually work, and people-first culture strategies lead to measurable improvements in collaboration and retention. She also highlights how AI can support stronger teamwork by reducing friction, not replacing human connection.

If you are feeling stuck or overlooked, Kat’s message is especially powerful. She reframes career clarity through the idea of agency. “This is where I am now” is the starting point for building momentum, whether you are job-hugging for security or actively planning your next move. You will learn how to leverage sponsors, make small bets that showcase your strengths, and use self-knowledge as your internal career GPS.

For leaders, you will hear practical steps to build psychologically safe environments, create better feedback loops, and design culture rituals that promote accountability and respect. These insights will help you support your teams and advance your own leadership brand.

In This Episode, You Will Learn

• What IO psychology is and how it improves workplace culture
 • Why Kat transitioned from therapy to IO psychology and how that shift expanded her impact
 • How 2026 workplace trends are affecting mid-career professionals
 • How to partner with IO psychologists inside your organization
 • How to build agency when you feel stuck, unheard, or undervalued

Con

Chapters

• 0:00 Opening And Guest Introduction
• 1:12 Newsletter And Mid-Career Focus
• 1:47 Kat’s Mission And Work
• 3:15 From Childhood Trauma To Psychology
• 6:40 Pivot To IO Psychology
• 9:52 What IO Psychologists Actually Do
• 12:35 2026 Trend: Humans Over Checkboxes
• 15:05 A Personal IO Story And Access
• 18:03 How To Work With IO Psychologists
• 21:10 Agency For Stuck Mid-Career Pros
• 24:10 Job Hugging And Finding Impact
• 26:10 Self-Knowledge As A Career GPS
• 29:00 Where To Find Kat And Closing
• 31:40 Host Takeaways And Final CTA

Transcript

John Neral: 0:00

In a year full of change, and just like Mr. Rogers said, look for the helpers. You will always find people helping. As you look at your network and inside of your organization, who are the helpers you gravitate toward? Today's guest is one of those helpers. In a few moments, you will meet Kat Ortiz, an industrial organizational psychologist, and someone whom I've had the privilege of knowing and working with over the last six years. In this episode, Kat and I discussed her career path and why at 13 she knew she wanted to be a psychologist to help people. We also discussed what an IO psychologist does and their role inside of an organization. And Kat shares the biggest trend she sees that will impact how we work in 2026. Let's get started. I help mid-career professionals like you find a job or career they love or love the one they have using my proven four-step formula. Before we dive into the episode, I want to share that aside from this podcast, I have a free newsletter. Now, my twice-weekly newsletter is where you'll get more information and insights about how you work and lead as a mid-career professional. To subscribe to my free email newsletter, all you have to do is visit my website, https://johnneral.com/resources or check the show notes to sign up today. Today's guest is my friend and colleague, Kat Ortiz. Kat is an industrial organizational psychologist, leader in learning and organizational development in a nonprofit, and the owner of Core Consulting. She is dedicated to transforming workplace environments using learning techniques rooted in science. Kat's work focuses on creating high-performing teams by promoting emotionally intelligent leadership and addressing the human needs of workers. Kat's personal experiences inspired her to pursue a career in psychology with a focused interest in systemic change. In her work, Kat creates and facilitates leadership development programs that empower individuals to create safer and more equitable workplaces. She emphasizes the importance of science-backed strategies for meaningful organizational change and advocates for psychologically safe workplaces and inclusive initiatives as essential for both human and fiscal success. I know you're going to enjoy this conversation, and it is my pleasure to introduce you to Kat Ortiz. Kat Ortiz, my friend, welcome to the podcast.

Kat Ortiz: 3:04

Thank you, John. Thank you so much for having me.

John Neral: 3:06

You and I are going to have such a wonderful conversation today. I have been waiting to talk to you. Your story is amazing. Kat, share with us what you would say is a defining or pivotal pivotal moment at mid-career for you that brought you to this moment right now behind the mic.

Kat Ortiz: 3:29

Pivotal moment. You know, John, it's like there's a whole lifetime of pivotal moments that added up, that got to a certain place. Pivotal moment early on was when I was 13. I decided that I was going to be a psychologist when I got older. And that that became a dream for me. Um, I was going through a lot of abuse at my in my home, and um I decided that it wasn't gonna destroy me. It was gonna turn, it was gonna turn into something bigger than me, and I was gonna do something good about it. So at 13, I decided that I was gonna be a psychologist, and life went on. And I continued to exist in in that home. And finally, when you know, old enough, I was able to get out and get away and um started working in restaurants, um, did gig work, and uh, you know, always had that dream inside of me that there was there was a psychologist in here and and that that was gonna happen. Uh worked all through my 20s in restaurants and then a call center. And then um at 30, I had my my son. Uh that was uh a huge point for me. So a giant career moment for me was when I was 30 and had him. I decided many, many things needed to change right then. So a lot of my GPS was set when my son was born. Um I broke off and excommunicated from a family that was um still dragging me down and still painfully abusive. Um, and I decided then that uh I was gonna get my degrees. I was gonna be that psychologist. So at 30 with the baby and and my uh husband of at that time we were married seven years, um, started school. And this was uh after I got a GED um because I had no education growing up. I was a strange um situation of isolation and uh not not being around people. I wasn't allowed to go to school or anything when I was younger. So um I got my GED when I got away from my family and got out and got free. But that dream of being a psychologist seemed so far away because it was like here was this person that had never taken an algebra class, knew nothing about chemistry, doesn't know anything about world history. I've never took the classes. Um I don't know how to diagram a sentence, and I don't know the linguistics uh that anyone in an English major would know. I I knew none of it. And I was like, that's it's probably unreal that I would ever get a degree. Um, but then that baby was born, and uh it became a huge pivotal moment that I was like, you know, it's gonna be worth it for him. And as it became became more worth it doing work for him, um, it became a huge thing for me. Um, and and became my own GPS. Uh it turned out it wasn't just for that baby anymore. I started nurturing and helping uh a small person that was still living in me that needed help and needed curing and healing and all that. So I started at square one uh with one class at a time, started adding it up. I got an associate's degree, I got my bachelor of science, and then I went on to my master's degree. Uh through that, I had another baby. Um I went and got a lot of therapy too during it. And um the another pivotal moment that happened for me was when um I was I finished my bachelor's degree and I was getting into my master's and still had that dream I was gonna be a psychologist. And part of what was important and why I was getting those degrees is so that I could get my family in out of poverty. We don't have much, and and so I was like, I I've got to get these degrees so I get a good job. And then I looked at the income of a therapist, and it was not something that was gonna help further our family, and so everything kind of came crashing down. I was like, I've been doing all this work and I was gonna be a psychologist, but now I have to pivot, I have to do something that that I don't want to do so that I can provide better for my family. And uh my my guidance person at the school was talking to me about IO psychology, and I was scared of it because it's a very statistics-heavy degree, it's a lot of math, and I'm like, but I'm just this uneducated GED holder, I don't have these classes, I'll never be able to get a degree that's so heavy in statistics. And then I was like, Buck up, buttercup. Let's strap in, let's let's do this. Because I as I started thinking about um the IO psychology, I thought, you know, maybe the psychology that I want to do and the impact that I wanted to make wasn't on an individual basis healing from traumas, maybe it was at a grander scale. And when I started looking into IO psychology and understanding what the degree is, I started seeing this ability to start changing systems and go for more of a macro level of using the psychology degree. And it became extremely inspiring and extremely exciting for me. So it was a huge pivot for me to switch over to industrial organizational psychology, but um, one that is massively important for me. I think I am a better person because of that IO degree. And I don't know that I would even make that good of a therapist.

John Neral: 8:37

I don't know. I mean in that capacity, but I mean, like, yeah.

Kat Ortiz: 8:41

I get kind of judgy.

John Neral: 8:46

You have a really big heart, and that's what I love about you. Yeah. Oh, thank you. No, so Kat, what I love about your story here in particular is that you you talk about getting your family out of poverty and making a better life for all of you. And and this decision to go to school. I mean, aside from the the childhood abuse and the trauma that you had to endure, and you get your GED, and now you find yourself fast forwarding very quickly, right? So you you get your your master's in Iopsychology, and you find yourself in this space where you get to actively be a part of change. And one of the things I've known about you and truly appreciate about you is that in that change, there is this opportunity to inspire hope. 2025 has been a year. It has, right? We have seen so much happen on the world stage, politically, or organizationally. We've seen AI come in and dramatically transform the way we live and we work. And we're seeing organizations handle change very differently. Kat, for the person who's listening to our conversation right now, they may not have ever interacted with an IO psychologist or may not even fully know what an IOpsychologist truly does. Can you talk to us a little bit about where at that macro level an iopsychologist is being a part of that potential change?

Kat Ortiz: 10:41

Yes, for sure. So um, if you break down the words industrial organizational, there's kind of two different branches um that we're trained to do uh or to work in. So the industrial side is is looking at really, really high level, um governmental, um, very, very high up and and looking at people's behaviors and how they behave. So the industrial park can be very useful for our government to use or any government, um, and anyone who's over large, large groups of people, and they're trying to come up with laws that are equal and fair for all people. Um, and and it's like the Iopsychology um whole practice is all based on science. So it's not picking out things based on political beliefs or anything like that, but it's actually saying we know the framework of human. We we look at the science, we look at the research that's coming out. There's always more research coming out that's giving us insights on people. And so when we look at people and what people need, this is what the industrial level um needs to do, the macro needs to do to be able to guide the people. And then when you go into organizational, it gets a little bit smaller. Then we're looking at these pockets that make up the industrial part. So um, and uh an iPhone just can work at any of those spaces, but I find myself very much in the organizational space. Um, and it's still a macro work, but looking at groups of people and saying, okay, this is what how we need the groups of people to behave, and this is what they need from us, and always just tying it back into science. What does science say will help people? What will help these organizations? And organizations always want the ROI for something, but if you don't have a solid human workforce, the the ROI will never come through. Um, it's it it's the building in the bricks of those buildings are only good as as good as the humans inside of it running it. So um that's that's that. Yeah.

John Neral: 12:38

And and that's very encouraging to hear. And of course, everything we're seeing in 2025 and of course heading into 2026, it's understandable that some people may feel like that's being missed or that's being lost, especially when we're looking at some of our really large companies going through huge layoffs and huge changes and things. So when you look at the science, when you look at the data, what are some, would you say, particular trends or challenges that are facing the workplace coming into 2026?

Kat Ortiz: 13:18

That nobody's looking at the humans. Yeah. It's when when something needs to be done and and um it's it's checking boxes when it comes to humans. Like, oh, we've heard that that people want um equity or inclusion. They want to feel like they belong. Um we've we hear that people want development, and it's just checking boxes rather than creating um these cultures that allow people to bloom and thrive and and become something. So I would say the the challenge of 2026 is the same challenge as always, is that um organizations care about products more than they do about people. Okay. And machines, right? When you bring in AI, it's still becoming more of that, and still people are the second thought.

John Neral: 14:11

So I don't think you know this story, but I'm gonna I'm gonna share it with you real quick because it's it's my it's my favorite IO psychology story, and I can't believe you don't know this. I don't think you know, I don't think you know this, right? Okay. So so before I launched my coaching practice full-time, I had worked for an educational nonprofit. And I worked in Georgetown, and um, for whatever reason, and it was just a horrible way to start the day, the coffee machine was not working on my floor. Awful, awful, the travesty of it all, right? So so I have to trek down to the third floor, which was like where our lunchroom was and everything like that. And so I go and I get my coffee, and as I'm leaving, I hold the door open and two women walk through and I say good morning, and I go back to my office. And about five minutes later, my email pings. Dear Mr. Narrell, I don't know if you remember me or not. My name is Sarah, and you taught me sixth grade math at Valley Middle School in Oakland, New Jersey. Did I just see you on the third floor? And if so, what are you doing here? And so I went, Sarah, I'm in office, blah, blah, blah. Come up and say hi.

Kat Ortiz: 15:26

Oh my gosh.

John Neral: 15:27

So she was one of our IO psychologists. Very nice. So, right. So one of like one of my favorite students. Um, we're still connected on social media, right? And and so, you know, we had we had this conversation, and it was not teacher student, it was colleague to colleague, but admittedly very different. Because it's not that you're like, you don't expect to work with one of your teachers later on in life. It just doesn't work. Oh, you don't. Okay. So so I had some fun in the sense that like I I had a standing meeting in a conference room immediately after Sarah did. And I'd be like, hi, Sarah. She would never call me John, she just couldn't do it, right? She'd be like, hi. And I'm like, don't call me Mr. Narrell.

Kat Ortiz: 16:10

It's not like that anymore.

John Neral: 16:12

But but we were, we were dealing with an issue on our team. And and I I reached out to her and I said, okay, first of all, I've got a problem and I need your help. Secondly, this might be awkward or odd for you, but I'm coming to you as a respected colleague and I need your insight on something. Can I come talk to you? And I remember I went down to her office and I sat in her office and we closed the door and we had this very intentional and powerful conversation about essentially taking care of the humans. Right. And I so appreciated where she was able to come from that conversation rooted in science and with evidence, and based on what research she could share. And and we got done, and I said, this might have been awkward. This is going to be one of the most memorable conversations I'll have in my career.

Kat Ortiz: 17:16

Oh, wow. Oh, wow. That's awesome.

John Neral: 17:20

So I got to learn about Iopsychology from a very specific and personal lens. I was also at a level where I could do that. For the people who are listening, Kat, like how much interaction in an organization might they specifically have with an IOpsychologist or an IOpsychology team that they might be able to have those kind of conversations, be it around workplace efficiency or culture or DEI or leadership, that they might have access to do. And if so, how do they have that conversation with them?

Kat Ortiz: 18:03

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's important to always remember that an IO psychologist is not clinically trained. So um, but we come with all the psychological principles and frameworks of understanding human behavior. So while I will never be able to give any advice on um how to uh, you know, recover from PTSC or even workplace trauma or something like that, um, I can I can guide people toward a therapist if they need it. But understanding first what an IO psychologist is, I think is is really important. And always remember that it's that we're not clinically trained and we cannot give therapy. Because people think psychologists and they immediately think of the couch.

John Neral: 18:40

Because absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Kat Ortiz: 18:43

So um, if you have the the opportunity to work with an iodologist, usually there's not a team of them. Um they they're usually a lone uh worker in that um they're they're sought out for that expertise. And hopefully in the organization that they find themselves in, that it's it's a a place of respect because it is very much like partnering with a therapist when you think about going on that journey of healing. Um, any organization that partners with a niopsychologist or has one on their team has to give them a high level of trust and needs to consistently keep entering this contract of mutual agreement for what it is that they're going for. Um, just like if you were in therapy and you were like, I'm, you know, I'm I'm not feeling like my therapist was hearing our understanding or that we're getting to the goal that we want to get to, it's the same way for any organization working with an IO psychologist. So um that contract or that that mutual agreement needs to be constantly touched in on. So if the leader says, we want a better culture, we want a more inclusive culture, we want something that's very people forward and that we are serving our people's needs. Um, as the IO psychologist does work, they they'll set up um their their discovery, they'll look into what what's glitching in in the workplace and what needs fixed, and and they'll come up with a list of things that is the plan. We're gonna try these initiatives to to start moving things forward and changing whatever it is that the leader brought to them as a problem. At any point in time, if the leader feels like this isn't working or you weren't listening to me, they need to re-enter that that agreement again. And that if that leader is not able to consistently give feedback to the other psychologist and allow the psychologist to give feedback to them, generally the initiatives won't work. But so that's first things first. At a high level, those leaders need to be in on it and be need very aware of it. They need to understand what it is, the goals they're going for, and to keep this open, trusting agreement with the psychologist that they're going for. The psychologists will continue to bring research and evidence-based things and strategies on how to change and answer whatever problem they're answering. Um, for the people um individually in a workplace, if there's an IO psychologist, it I say go and talk with them at any opportunity that you can. Um, this is an important uh feed of information that the IO psychologist can use for what is guiding this workplace. Um, every individual comes with their own case study as they come up to um a researcher. And so a researcher is going to look at those case studies and and it starts painting a more clear picture of the things the psychologist has probably already um observed in the organization. Um, but yeah, go and talk with them because at the end of the day, we're all human too. Um, yes, I'm a psychologist, but yeah, I want to talk with people because people is truly where my passion is, and I believe it to be true for most of my colleagues um in the field is that we're we're here for people. So conversations with people are things that are just delightful for us, even as introverts. Yes.

John Neral: 21:49

The introverts and and and us as ambiverts and extroverts and everything. We got to acknowledge everybody, right? Exactly. Um so Kat, here's here's the thing I'm really curious about with how everything has moved so quickly this year. And for a lot of people whom I I work with and I help, just like you, like we we understand and we get the importance of human interaction and how humans need to be respected and valued and honored in in every aspect of our lives and our work. With as fast as everything is moving is what what is the opportunity here for people to truly embrace change in a people and heart-centric way that impact culture the way you see best in the workplace?

Kat Ortiz: 23:04

Reframe the question.

John Neral: 23:12

Um for a mid-career professional who is feeling frustrated, undervalued, and underutilized in their organization, but they still care about it. They still care about the people, they care about the work, they care about the clients. Their focus every day is to go in and do the highest quality work they possibly can. But they are they feel like they've been pushed down, they feel like they've been suppressed or they're not heard, they don't get the seat at the table, but they still care about that organization. When they think about is change possible, what should be the things they should be paying attention to to guide them as to whether or not it actually is.

Kat Ortiz: 24:09

It is their own internal locus. So um, if someone is feeling like they're not her and they don't have a seat at the table and all of those things, um, it's true. And that happens. There have been many times um in life, um, my life, and I'm sure everyone that's listening to this can say, yes, there's there's times that I just I I either didn't fit in or I just I'm not at a place that I want to be right now. Um, I can certainly say that to be true throughout my life. Um endure what you must. Um it's it's okay to actually say to if you if you rather than sitting in oppression, like I'm I'm stuck in this spot, and you there's this idea that everything is happening to you. I'm stuck here, they're sticking me here, and I can't get out of this. Well, where's the agency in that? So reframe it a little bit like, well, what if, what if I'm here right now, but I have the freedom of movement and open your hands and your eye, your thoughts to the this is where I am now. Not that I'm stuck here, but this is where I am now. And with my own agency, then how do I bloom and grow? Where am I gonna go from here? And and the opportunity lies within you. It is not the opportunities that people give to you, it's the opportunities you're gonna make for yourself. So, and of course, oppression still comes in on that. And we still have a lot of things. Like I work at a nonprofit to make sure that that women and and minorities and underserved people can grow and get a seat at the table. There are certainly unique barriers that happen to all of us as we're going through our workplaces as we try to get ahead. Um, but it does not stop your own agency and what you're able and capable of taking on. So, yes, I want to make sure that I give a nod to the fact that there is systemic oppression that will hold people back. But that if we sit in a place of I'm stuck here and they've they've they have me, they have me cornered, um, it doesn't give you the hope to start dreaming about where you're gonna go with that. So for anyone who's stuck, say, okay, yeah, I'm stuck. All right, what do I do now? What do I do from here? Have that conversation with a leader. Um, change your jobs if they if they really are um not making space for you. What other opportunities are there? Maybe there's um a sponsor or a mentor that's over in another department that if you dabble a little bit in that project over there, they'll sponsor you and they'll put you in front of the people that you need to be in front of. There's so many different opportunities, and it's not always about what you can and do for yourself, because I don't want to say that everybody can be something and pull themselves up at the bootstraps, because that's not what I want to get at there. But understanding one's own agency and what they're capable of accomplishing does a lot for how we're going to navigate and where we see ourselves going.

John Neral: 26:58

That's extremely well said. And I know that's gonna resonate with a lot of people today because when you talk about having agency and understanding that I'm here in this moment, this year we heard the term job hugging, right? People are hugging onto their jobs because they're too scared to make a move or the market isn't that good, or they're just gonna ride out wherever they are in their organization to see what's gonna be next. That's a choice. That choice is based on agency, and there is nothing wrong in that.

Kat Ortiz: 27:29

Right. Right. There's nothing. So find joy in that then. Yeah, hugging right now. I've been there, I've hugged a job before. You have to do it. We're all here for a paycheck, and we know what we need to accomplish in our lives. But why allow yourself to feel so stuck in that moment when you can still make changes and make massive um impact wherever you're at, even if you're hugging that job.

John Neral: 27:50

Yeah. Yeah, that's okay. It's all good. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, so so good. Um, well, we've talked about some trends and some challenges, and we've talked about what IO psychologists do. And as we start wrapping up here, for anybody who's listening and they're thinking about what they could do to build their mid-career GPS to whatever is next. Kat, I'm gonna I'm gonna change this question a little bit for you. Okay.

Kat Ortiz: 28:22

Okay.

John Neral: 28:24

Given your story, given your life and your professional experiences, you are one of the most um inspiring and motivating people I know.

Kat Ortiz: 28:37

Thanks, John. It takes one to know one.

John Neral: 28:39

Well, thank you. Thank you. So, what it what could you share with someone today who might be feeling a little stuck or undervalued or underutilized to help them figure out what's next as they build their mid-career GPS?

Kat Ortiz: 28:53

Um, it's it that goes straight into my psychology roots. And and I'm trying not to answer a question with a question. I know you're a coach and I'm a psychologist, and we'll be like, well, what how do you feel about that? Um know you, understand you, dig in deeper on you. You're worth it, and you are the only person who will invest in you the way that you will. Your job won't, your partner won't, your best friend won't, you invest on you. So the more you can understand about yourself and who you are and what it is that you're doing is the foundation on which everything good can grow. So dig into yourself, know why you feel stuck, explore hard feelings, go to places that don't feel so comfortable, um, and and know uh know you because then you can start saying, okay, this is why I feel stuck there. Is it do I feel stuck there because I am stuck there? Or am I stuck there because um circumstances and prior experiences say that I probably have been stuck like this before? So just knowing you allows you to look at the world through a lens of. Um, almost a clinician, like step back from yourself and say, Well, if I were to rate this person and see what they're doing, um, you could find the things where they're kind of glitching or they're stuck in their their own. So get out of your own way. And I think getting out of our own way is only when we actually know where we're in our way. And you can learn that by learning yourself. Um, don't be afraid of opening Pandora's box. Get in there because uh there's the the person that you are is a gem and a jewel. You are rare and a one-of-a-kind thing. And so more a person can understand themselves, the more they can bring all of the beautiful facets that they offer the world out to um expose the people. Yeah.

John Neral: 30:37

Well said. Thank you for that. Um, I think we all needed to hear that today. So thank you. All right. My friend, if people want to find you, connect with you, learn more about you, all the great things, cat or tease. I'm gonna turn the mic over to you. Please share us all the good stuff.

Kat Ortiz: 30:54

Thank you. Um, you can find me on LinkedIn. Um, I'm thinking about starting a TikTok account. I have a TikTok account. I haven't really made any TikToks, but I'm thinking about possibly doing a um uh psychology and dinner. Just talk psychology facts while I make dinner and see if we want to do that. Um, and I am also uh endeavoring to write a book in 2026. So hopefully by the this time next year, I will have something going to an editor and we'll finally be able to get that out there. But you can find me on LinkedIn, Cat or Tease, and uh I I look forward to connecting with as many people as possible. Love my network.

John Neral: 31:28

Great. And I I am honored to be a part of it. I will make sure all of that is in the show notes, Kat, when the book is out there or ready to come out. We got to get you back on the podcast. I'd love to love to hear more about that as well. And so thank you so very much. My friend, thank you for being such a wonderful guest on the podcast today.

Kat Ortiz: 31:46

John, thank you for having me. It was so much fun.

John Neral: 31:49

It was. Thank you. All right, my friends. Um I asked Kat to be on the podcast for one very simple reason. And that's not just because she's an amazing colleague and friend, and I appreciate the work that she does. It's about this conversation she brings about never losing sight of the humans. So much that is going on in our world and how we work and what we're feeling right now may make us feel like we're a little bit small or we're a little diminished, or we're not as important in our jobs as what we think we are or what we were once told we were. When we root the conversation back to humans are what get things done, especially in an age of AI, the relationships we build, the connections we make, even if it's a something as simple as saying hello to two people that walk into a room and then you end up finding out they happen to be one of your students from years ago, whatever it might be, um, the connections we make and how we show up matters. And I thank Kat for bringing that conversation to us today. So, my friends, until next time, remember this you will build your mid-career GPS one mile or one step at a time, and how you show up matters. Make it a great rest of your day. Thank you for listening to the Mid Career GPS Podcast. Make sure to follow on your favorite listening platform. And if you have a moment, I'd love to hear your comments on Apple Podcasts. Visit johnnarrell.com for more information about how I can help you build your Mid-Career GPS, or how I can help you and your organization with your next workshop or public speaking event. Don't forget to connect with me on LinkedIn and follow me on social at Johnnarrell Coaching. I look forward to being back with you next week. Until then, take care and remember, how we show up matters.