The Levantini Podcast
The Levantini Podcast is a show about the ancient Near East with a focus on biblical archaeology, Judaism and Islam.
The Levantini Podcast
Hebrew with Teacher Mike
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In this episode of the podcast, we spoke with the founder of the Hebrew language learning website and Youtube Channel Hebrew with Teacher Mike. We had a great conversation about his journey mastering Hebrew, the methods he’s adapted for his own students, and the importance of learning and using non-violent communication in Hebrew
Welcome to the Forincy Podcast. I'm your host, Alex Sorin. Forency is a podcast about Near Eastern history, language, and culture and is brought to you by forency.us, the premier language learning website for intermediate to advanced learners of Arabic, Hebrew, and Russian. In this episode of the podcast, I spoke with Mike Corman, who's the founder of the Hebrew language learning website and YouTube channel, Hebrew with Teacher Mike. We had a great conversation about his journey mastering Hebrew, the methods he's adapted for his own students, and the importance of learning and using nonviolent communication in Hebrew. Had a great time speaking with him, and I hope you enjoy the show. Okay, I'm here today with Mike from Hebrew with Teacher Mike, who's in Israel. How are you doing? Hey, I'm doing well. Good to be here. What's going on over there?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, what a crazy time. I think probably similar to most places in the world. We're in lockdown and have been for about 10 days or so. So I'm spending a lot of time at home with my wife and my daughter. What's like the general atmosphere among people there? I think before many other countries in the world, Israelis, uh, we kind of knew that it was coming, that there'd be quite locked down early on. So there's been an element of I guess at getting used to it, which these days, the last few days, it feels kind of like normal. Whereas uh a week ago I was feeling a bit more anxious. It's kind of yeah, become the norm over here in a weird way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, weird norm. Yeah. Well, I'm glad you're doing all right. So people who may not be familiar with your YouTube channel or your website, um, teachermike.co.io, it'd be great if you can tell everybody what you do and and the lessons that you create.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So I don't know, Alice, I don't know how how much of the story you'd like me to tell, but you guys, I'll be guided by you. Essentially, I credit a Hebrew, a Hebrew business because I learned the language when I moved over here. I was and I'm born in Australia, and I moved over to Israel, and I learned the language, taught myself. And my Hebrew business is kind of a culmination of all the things I learned, some gently and some not so gently, as I taught myself and wanted to pass those learnings on to others in a way which can create a smoothest learning experience for them as possible.
SPEAKER_02And it's a focus on conversational Hebrew and as it's spoken in in Israel. It's not you don't cover you know literature or high-level stuff like that. It's mostly everyday speaking, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It's a big focus on conversational Hebrew. That's right. Main skills of understanding conversational Hebrew and being able to express yourself in a conversational way. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So when you moved to Israel from Australia, what year was that?
SPEAKER_01Uh now you're testing me. I think I moved to 2012. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01And had you studied Hebrew before then?
SPEAKER_02In any capacity?
SPEAKER_01Yes, I'm Jewish and I went to a Jewish school with very, very poor Hebrew instruction. Over eight years, I learned how to read. My vocabulary was about 30 words. But I did I was familiar with the sounds of the language and yeah, I could read it. Just I wouldn't understand what I was reading.
SPEAKER_02Right. And so what when you first moved, if you remember, like what were some of the things that that initially stood out to you, like what the the initial gaps in in your Hebrew knowledge?
SPEAKER_01The main gaps was were just a conversational vocabulary. I didn't have any idea how Hebrew was used today. So yeah, it was just being able to use it conversationally, but was just I had no real background or ability to do that.
SPEAKER_02Right. And as an immigrant in Israel, how crucial is it for you to be able to speak Hebrew like an Israeli, as as you put it a lot of times in your lessons, both from a social and just a general quality of life standpoint?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think it's crucial. It's I mean, and moving country, I don't know your listeners, how many of them are interested in learning the language because of interest to them or whether some of them are moving and living in in Israel. The whole kind of overhaul that it does to, and I'll speak about myself, but individually, to move myself across from Australia to Israel, it was a huge decision and a huge emotional roller coaster. And to then have to face the social isolation, which comes from not knowing the language and the loneliness that anyway you kind of feel moving to a new country and having to rebuild your life, but to not be able to connect with people through the language is really substantial. And it's important for me to say that because that's a big part of my teaching, is also to we maybe we'll get to this a bit later, but also the psychology of learning a language and the emotional challenges that we face when learning language, whether it's fear of making mistakes or or whatnot. For me, being able to learn conversational Hebrew was a a gateway to be able to make social connections here and to feel more a part of the place. So it really was crucial. I use that word, it really was crucial to my well-being here and to my ability to build a life here.
SPEAKER_02And what do you hear from your students? I mean, the kind of things that they say when they when they come to you.
SPEAKER_01My students asked me, how did you do it? So, how did you do it? It's such a hard language to learn. And I usually empathize with them because it is a very difficult language to learn if you're a native English speaker. And a lot of my students were not native English speakers, but they, you know, Latin languages, they they weren't Arabic speakers, or Arabic's the the main language that comes to mind when I think of what language might help you actually understand Hebrew. So no matter where they came from, I had students that have learned that know five languages and they still struggle with Hebrew. So a lot of them it was an expression of difficulty and on how to kind of learn this language and learn it in Israel. So how you do it was a question, how did you do it was a question I got a lot. And mainly I I got kind of a affirmation that really all people want is conversational Hebrew. At least the people that came to me. They wanted to know how to connect with other human beings. They wanted to know how to express themselves and not just speak simply. They wanted to know how to speak with somewhat of a rich vocabulary as much as possible in order to establish a human connection and feel a part of things. I don't know if I've answered your question specifically, but that's that's what came next.
SPEAKER_02No, yeah. I mean, and in that same vein, I mean, when it comes to the traditional, whether it's in university or the Ulpan programs, you know, what are the shortcomings that you've seen as a Hebrew teacher in those programs and in those methods?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think they're awfully structured. And when I say structured, I mean grammatically structured. I feel I went to Upan for a month. Um, that was all I could stand. I didn't find it beneficial for my learning at all or efficient. So I find that one of the shortcomings in the traditional life teaching Hebrew is it's awfully structured. And by that I mean it relies on grammar to be like the skeleton. Now I have no issue with grammar. I think it's important. I teach grammar, but it's not the centerpiece of what I do and how I approach the language. It supports the centerpiece. My centerpiece is always this conversation, this spoken and understanding spoken Hebrew. And as we begin to converse in my lessons, we will come to grammar inevitably, and we'll touch on it, but only to the point that it fulfills the purpose of conversing and connecting. So that to me is a major shortcoming, is kind of an over-reliance on grammar. By the way, I can understand it because in Israel, the ulpanim, often have 40 people in a classroom, and I think you almost have to have a structure. And grammar provides a really clear structure in order to just organize the studying, the learning. Right. So I don't I understand why it's the case, but it is a massive shortcoming.
SPEAKER_02Right. Yeah. Well, it's a big problem here in the US too. You know, Hebrew enrollment in universities are falling every year, programs are closing, and I think a lot of it is because of the traditional ways of teaching the language, where it's a very heavy grammar focus. A lot of the teachers are pretty old. You know, they're older individuals who I found the most frustrating thing was that they don't treat you like an adult when you're learning the language in college. Okay. So like you'll be singing children's songs instead of learning, you know, modern Israeli music. On that note, I mean, how important is that to approach teaching the language to adults as adults?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that's a really important point. I I just the word that rang out to me as he spoke was relevance. Going to make the language relevant. One from a memory point of view, enough studies that I've been exposed to and read have said that our memory is enhanced if what we're learning is relevant to our lives and not just generic, or as you say, you know, completely disconnected from myself as an adult. It's a children's songs. I'm not I've learned them, thank you, I've moved on. So the relevance from the point of view of also my stage in life, but also just what I'm doing in my life. So making it relevant and focusing the vocabulary and even the grammar, focusing it all on my life or the life of the student is crucial to me.
SPEAKER_02When you first moved to Israel, what did you do for work?
SPEAKER_01Uh I was finishing a law degree actually, and I in Jerusalem, and I was closing up a few businesses that I had in Australia that I wasn't going to continue over here. So I was doing that and then and then I started volunteering to try and put myself in an environment where I'd be surrounded by Hebrew. Volunteering doing volunteering on an organic vegetable garden on Jerusalem Hills.
SPEAKER_02So talk about that. I mean, because those are the most valuable things, I think, of when you put yourself in those situations and you start being surrounded by everyday conversations and words that you never learned that, you know, or things that people should learn. I mean, like if you could talk about that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that was probably that was probably one of the main reasons I was able to pick out the language fairly quickly was I was ruthlessly, I was quite ruthless with myself to put myself in an immersive environment where I'd be surrounded by the language. So I'd look for opportunities to be surrounded by Hebrew and to be forced to speak it. So I yeah, I I I, for example, went to work in this garden and I just had me and this gardener who was telling me what to do, and the whole day we were just like talking Hebrew to one another, and I had no option. You know, he wasn't there to tell me translate things. I put myself in situations where I didn't have any kind of options to do anything but speak Hebrew. But even in the situations where I did have options to speak English, because in Israel, one of the huge problems in learning languages, everyone here speaks a very, really, really high level of English. My wife's friends who I got to meet, I kind of made an internal decision and I said, I am not speaking English to them. And I almost forced myself to stay in Hebrew and speak only Hebrew to them from day one. If you ask me, would I recommend that to other students? I'm not sure because it has an emotional toll. Often I was just silent, which I don't know if that's what I would have done if I had my time over. But I internally decided that I'm only going to be speaking Hebrew now and I'm going to search for those environments where I'll be surrounded and forced to speak it. And it was really, really beneficial for the development of Hebrew, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_02So I kind of want to get into your the process of learning the language that you develop for yourself. And I'm talking about your daily routine of studying Hebrew. I'd like if you could start by saying the things you did in the beginning, the processes you developed for yourself that that didn't end up working out, and then how you molded those to something that that was much more sustainable and effective.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, cool. So I think in addition to what we've just spoken about, which is really trying to make an internal commitment to speaking and immersing yourself in the language as much as possible and as as much as is correct for you. What I focused on was vocabulary acquisition. And that's where I played around most. I knew that when people would tell me words or when I'd learn words, I noticed that I'd forget them if I didn't do something with them, like write them down. So I started off, I think in a notebook. I just have a small like notebook in my pocket and I write down words and I write down the English word next to it. And then I noticed that my notebook got filled really quickly. And I'd also noticed that I'd remember some of the words there and some of the words I'd forget. So I started going over the notebook, but I realized it was an inefficient use of time because there are many words that I already knew. So I was wasting time kind of going over words I already knew. I moved from a notebook to Quizlet, which is a flashcard. I'm sure you listeners probably know about it. I used Quizlet to do the same thing. I'd write English and Hebrew flashcards, and I'd just go over them until I go over them every day until I would be going over my flashcards for about an hour a day. And again, I realized the inefficiency of it because a lot of the words I'd remembered and quiz that didn't have this feature where you could kind of it was a bit fiddly, wasn't super user-friendly. And then I read the book by Gabriel Weiner, I think is his name, Fluent Forever, who talked about space repetition learning and flashcard creation with Anki. Anki, I don't wonder if it's still in business today, but Anki is a flashcard's software which is completely customizable.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01And they used to use completely unusable. Yeah, right. It's complete it's completely unusable. And he spoke about it in such technical detail, I was thinking to myself, well, if you're not a technical person, this would just be awfully overwhelming and inaccessible. I spent hours working with Anki and and despite its lack of aesthetic nature, I was very successful in using it to retain words. So I'd I'd go over, I'd create every week, I'd write down new words, I think, and then at the end of the week, I'd put new words into Anki, usually with a sentence. So I kept it all in Hebrew. And Anki would test me daily, and I'd just use it on my phone to retain those words daily. And then that was around the point of time where I started also checking my vocabulary against a frequency word list, making sure that my vocabulary that I knew was also vocabulary that was really used. I mean I wasn't didn't have any holes, wasn't missing any particular words. Where did you find that frequency word list? Oh god, I translated Gabriel's English one into Hebrew, and I've I've since built that up to a thousand words. So I have a thousand-word, I use this with my students and in my online courses. I it's a thousand-word frequency list in Hebrew based on a list like Gabriel's that I translated, and also based on other websites, statistical data on what's most used. So that's a crucial was a crucial part of my learning, and it's a crucial part of my teaching is making sure I'm actually learning vocabulary that is useful.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01And what about my process?
SPEAKER_02What about when it comes to to when it came to your speaking practice or to to listening to YouTube videos? I mean, how did it's not just one thing, it's several components. How did you how did you incorporate those?
SPEAKER_01With my um, yeah, it's funny, I didn't really think about do you ask me that question in the email correspondence before this, I I didn't really think about it, but I always would try and imitate how Israelis spoke. So I knew from day one that if I'm going to speak with a really strong accent, chances are that Israelis will change to English and speak to me in English. And I don't want that. I want them to speak Hebrew in me, also for my self-esteem, it's almost a compliment. And it's and it can be very frustrating and also deflating for students who are learning a language for hours and hours and years, weeks, years, to have a native speaker just switch to English. So the accent to me was was crucial, and I just tried to copy people. So I noticed that Israelis instead of saying um let's say uh and so I just I noticed that and then I'd use it. Instead of saying um makree. So I paid a lot of attention to how Israelis spoke and the tempo and and tried to imitate that. I paid I actually did a lot of work on my on my accent.
SPEAKER_02Well, that part of language learning is key is learning to imitate people and acting and playing a role. And I think that gets overlooked a lot. It's not just about memorizing words and being able to communicate with words, it's also being able to use body language and facial expressions and hand expressions. I mean, just like in Arabic, I mean, Hebrew is very expressive. So, you know, you use your hands a lot and your face and things like that. But it goes a long way in in terms of kind of, you know, you're you're kind of hypnotizing your your speaker, the person you're speaking with, into communicating with you and not making that because like like you said, that switch that happens when if they can pick up on if Israelis pick up that you're not a native Hebrew speaker, if they hear an accent or if you slip up somehow, the switch that happens where they go right to English is is pretty quick. And it is like really deflating when that happens. But you know, I found all those tools that you're describing do make a big difference in maintaining that tempo.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's crucial. It is, and it's difficult. And I'm reminded of a story like you almost have to be make a fool of yourself. I think that's a crucial element to being able to learn a language. If you're not willing to make a fool of yourself, then I think you're restricting your ability to learn a language quickly. I remember being on a bus in Jerusalem, right at the beginning of me learning a language, learning Hebrew. I'm standing at the back of the bus near the doors, the middle of the bus, and I noticed that when the bus stopped at a bus station, people that were standing next to the door next to me would yell something down the bus. I never clue what they were saying. It sounded like a something like that. To me, it just sounded like weird, aggressive Israeli sounds. And I thought, all right, I have no idea what that word is, but I'm just gonna imitate that sound because they'd say it and the doors would open straight away. It was like, what are they saying? And how cool that the doors open when they said so. I came to my stop and I yelled out, ah, and the doors opened. I thought, you've got to be kidding me. I just mumbled something, and that's apparently enough, close enough to a word. The door opened, I get out of the bus, and there's an Israeli who also got out at that stop. And he turned to me with a smile on his face, he said, He's giggling, he said, Yeah, just so you know, the word is nahag.
SPEAKER_02Right. That's the famous mega nah on the bus where the old lady screams for the Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. So so but that's you know, that's how I learned it's fun, it's a bit embarrassing, but yeah, it's so it's so crucial, really, to to be able to, I think that's the mindset that I tried to approach learning the language with is just to jump in and be willing to not know, which is difficult sometimes, and be willing to make a fool of myself and know that that's the best way to learn and also get some funny stories along the way. And I still make funny mistakes today.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and you know, on that point, one one thing that I found when I was living in Israel from 2008 to 2010. And I remember when I studied in university, I I was kind of shy and I had a lot of trouble, you know, being willing to make a fool of myself in class. And then I found that kind of dissipated when I moved to Israel because nobody knew me there, you know. So I wasn't as afraid of making a fool of myself if I said something stupid or if somebody laughed at me. I didn't really care because it wasn't like I was surrounded by, you know, kids from university that I'd have to see every day and things like that. And that's pretty liberating.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. That sounds like, yeah, you're talking about a new page, like a fresh start. Right. You know, the burden of yeah, with people that know you and what they expect from you, and yeah, the consequences of any type of new behaviors that yeah, that's a cool point. And for those that are moving and living in Israel, it could be a nice way to look at things. Okay, you know, no one knows me. Let's play around.
SPEAKER_02So on the topic of different ways to communicate with your whether it's body language or hand expressions, you're working on something now in your Hebrew lessons called you do nonverbal communication in in Hebrew. And I'd like if you could nonviolent, sorry, non-verbal, yeah, that'd be a problem. Nonviolent communication in Hebrew. I'd like if you could talk about why you decided to start doing that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's kind of new, but essentially, in addition to my Hebrew teaching, I've been studying to be a coach here in Israel, like a wellness coach. Um I studied psychology in university. It's always been a passion of mine to understand human well-being. So I studied um nonviolent communication, which is it's not a great name, I admit, but it's a technique for communicating which promotes real deep connection and intimacy in our relationships. For those that get in arguments, and actually now at the moment, everyone's locked in their house with their partner, it's it's difficult. There can be a lot of conflict which is created. And the way we communicate with one another is a big passion of mine and with my wife, we've seen the benefits of learning how to communicate in a more intimate way. So, what I decided to do was simply combine those two kind of passions, and I thought to myself, simply, well, if you're learning a language anyway, like Hebrew, why don't you combine that with learning a way to speak, like nonviolent communication, and then kind of kill two birds with one stone? I don't like that expression, but I can't think of another one. Um why would you want to kill a bird? But do you have another one for me?
SPEAKER_02No, that's uh that's all I got. But it doesn't really go well with uh nonviolent.
SPEAKER_00That's right.
SPEAKER_01But so yeah, I'm offering kind of courses for Hebrew learners, like at a medium level, not beginners. And we're learning in Hebrew, everything's in Hebrew, but we're learning a technique for communicating with one another, which I believe can be a real can really contribute to to our well-being and to good relationships. And so I'll be teaching that online. It's uh this yeah, there's some information on that on my website. If you link it, that'd be great. I guess we'll put a link there for it. So that's my yeah, that's kind of one of my newer, newer projects.
SPEAKER_02So how I mean, do you have what are the challenges in doing that in Hebrew, which is, you know, Israelis are very direct in their in their in their speak and in their communication with one another. I mean, what are what are some of the challenges in doing that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think it's important to say that actually nonviolent communication is very assertive communication. Um often the way we communicate is we often don't say what we really think or feel for whatever reason. Israelis will say more, I think, what they they think or feel, but they'll often say it in an aggressive way without really expressing what's under the surface. So there's nothing passive about nonviolent communication. Um it actually I think links well with Israeli culture, which as you say is can be more expressive and more open, maybe less rules of what's polite and what's right to say and what's wrong to say. So I actually find it fits really well. And actually, nonviolent communication is quite big in Israel um compared to other countries around the world. But yeah, you you're right that in nonviolent communication we often speak about what we're feeling and what we're needing. I'm feeling frustrated because I'm needing you to listen to me. I'm feeling that you're not really listening to me. It's there is a flavor to oh, that's weak, or that's yeah, it's a new way of communicating and a new way of kind of thinking about communication, but nothing passive about it. It can help people that have moved to this country become more assertive and ask for what they need and not fly away from home.
SPEAKER_02So on so on that point, I mean, it seems like you're filling some pretty important vocabulary gaps of everyday feelings and expressions that people probably wouldn't learn in traditional programs.
SPEAKER_01The vocabulary, it's a really good point. It's huge and it's deeply rich. And even in English, I don't know sometimes a lot of the words for emotions and for needs and for well-being that I've learned in Hebrew. So the vocabulary list that we're able to cover is not just rich, but it enables, it will enable students to to almost express themselves in Hebrew more accurately than maybe they can in English. And to me, that's amazing. Like if you can find in the language you're learning an actual an ability or the gift of deeper self-expression and more rich communication, then to me, wow, what more could you ask for for your target language from the title?
SPEAKER_02Right. Well, thanks for taking the time to speak with me today. For people who want to visit your website, it's teachermic.co.il. And then on YouTube, your channel, I think if you search Hebrew with teacher mic, a lot of really helpful videos are posted where you're whether you're in shuk mail or you're ordering food or juices or whatever, those are all really helpful. So it'd be great if I mean I'd love if you can continue doing that and um keep up the good work.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, Alex. It's a pleasure. Pleasure chatting with you today.
SPEAKER_02Take care.