Alex Iantaffi: ello and welcome to another episode of gender stories as ever, I am delighted and excited because I always have. I have the coolest guests that can't help it. And today I'm so delighted to be here with Bbook who is an author priestex, blogger, teacher, performer, singers, songwriter and comedian we only like guest to keep very busy and on They wrote the Gold
COVR award-winning Queer Qabala: Nonbinary, Genderfluid, Omnisexual Mysticism & Magick(Llewellyn, June 2022); and it's a wonderful book if you haven't checked it out, please do.
COVR award-winning Queer Qabala: They've also co-authored (with Ivo Dominguez, Jr.) Sagittarius Witch that came out this year and wrote the forthcoming and wrote the forthcoming Queer Rites: A Magickal Grimoire to Honor Your Milestones with Pride which will come out in early 2025 I believe right? So excited about this book too. They are also a founding member of the"funny, filthy, feminist, fandom folk" band The Misbehavin' Maidens, the creator of a website on queer magick called majorarqueerna.com, and the host of a podcast called "4 Quick Q's: Book Talk with Enfys," where they interview pagan authors using questions determined by a roll of the dice. They have taught many classes on tarot, Hermetic Qabala, magickal rites of passage, and queering one’s magical practice at conferences and events around the world. By day, Enfys is a technical account manager at a tech company, specializing in content migration and onboarding new customers. As a nonbinary, bisexual pagan and performer, Enfys employs a queer lens to break down limiting binaries in magickal practice, and advocates for bi, trans, non-binary/genderqueer, queer-, and asexual visibility and inclusion through their writing and music. Welcome and happy Beltane actually, it's Beltane on the day we have our interview!
Enfys J Book: Happy Beltane to you! And it's I'm so excited to be here. As we talked about before we started recording, I'm such a fan of your work, I think that the How to Understand Your Gender and How to Understand your Sexuality should be required reading for all humans.
Alex Iantaffi: So yeah, thank you. I'm excited to see why you think about how to understand your relationships coming out in January.
Enfys J Book: Exciting. I know we can do a book swap. I mean, itwould be great. Yeah. Alright, so coming out the same month, so we could have like, we could do cross promotion.
Alex Iantaffi: That's true. We totally could see, I love this kind of mutual admiration that goes on with all my guests, and I get to meet such cool people.
Alex Iantaffi: This is why I keep doing the podcasts. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being on gender stories. I know we connected a little bit online and it maybe one day we'll get to meet in person, at Paganicon or somewhere. But for today, I would love for you to just tell the listeners more about the upcoming book. I mean, the title alone, I am like there like Queer Rites: A Magickal Grimoire to Honor Your Milestones with Pride. I was like, Yes, I want this book. Just tell me what is the Book about what inspired you to write it? Go for it.
Enfys J Book: I'm so excited for this book to get released. It is a book I wish I'd had many years ago. And it's one that I hope will help a lot of different people who are approaching milestones related to their queerness their gender, their sexuality, and find ways to not only honor those milestones, but honor them in a magical way. So one thing that happened to me that sort of spurred the creation of this book is like many trans and non binary people, I decided to change my name during COVID pandemic, like in late 2020, I kind of hit that moment of okay, like, I need a name that better matches my gender identity that better matches who I am inside. And I ended up changing my first middle and last name all at once. Because it was just it was time for all three. So going through that process and all of the bureaucratic steps that take forever was an interesting and sort of fraught and emotional process. But there was never one moment where I felt like my name is changed or there was no step in that process that like told my soul that this is my new name, right. So I knew I needed some kind of magical ritual to do that. And I reached out to one of the elders in my pagan tradition, which is the assembly of the sacred wheel based in the mid Atlantic region. And our My elder Robin Fennelly, who's an amazing human and extremely smart. I said, I don't know where to begin, like, I've been writing rituals for several years, but I had no idea where to start writing a name change ritual, there was no prior art I could use on this. And so I was like, what do what do I do? And she came through like she understood the assignment and over delivered. If anything, she came up with not only a completely written out ritual start to finish, she gave me astrological timing that would work based on my birth chart and transits. And she created a sigil with my new name that I could use and empower in the ritual. And it was incredible.
Enfys J Book: And I took what she wrote, I ended up making just a few changes based on what was really part of my spiritual practice at the time, I wanted to weave it in with that. But I largely kept it pretty much the same, and did the ritual the day after my 41st birthday. And there happened to be like, an eclipse. So there was like, lots of really interesting and good astrological stuff going on, in addition to, you know, this is the anniversary of when I got the name. And the day after, I think, is sort of significant, like, okay, we're honoring that, and then we're stepping forward with something new. So in the process of doing that, and in the ritual, where I told my soul, all my parts of self, all of the spiritual beings that I work with, this is my new name.
Enfys J Book: Absolutely, clearly, this is the moment when everything changes.
Enfys J Book: I found so much benefit from doing that not only did it help me settle in better to my non binary identity, but also I think it smooth the path for actually changing that name. I shortly the best example I can give here is I found shortly after doing that ritual, I found an organization called Trans Maryland where all they do is help trans people change their names, and the legal hoops are pretty intense. And I think if I had not found them, I would still be trying to change my name four years later, because there was just so much, especially with how government services changed in 2020, there were just a lot of gotchas that were not easy to find. And so they were a big help. My transition at work was super smooth. My coworkers took to the new name very quickly. And all the logistical stuff at work changed really easily. So it was really beneficial for me, not just from a logistical standpoint, but from a spiritual standpoint. And I thought, I've had so many queer milestones in my life. You know, when I came out to myself as bisexual, when it came out to myself as non binary, when it came out to others, as bisexual and non binary, those were about 10 years apart. And actually more like 20. But each of these milestones, I sort of did them, but there was no like, tada, you know, like, there was no, this, this is a thing that oops, I bumped my microphone. Hopefully that didn't cause the noise. No, there was no moment of like, this is real, you know. And I thought about how we treat rites of passage in our culture, and not just on a magical level, but on a mundane level. And I thought, boy, what are some of the biggest ones that we do celebrate? And how have those kind of gotten twisted in interesting ways, like, weddings are kind of a prime example. So over commercialized like capitalism has wrecked so much of like the concept of a wedding for so many people. Another example is when people get to an older age, what do we do we have all these joki over the hill kind of things. And like there's almost a shame in with this rite of passage. And even you know, graduations are a big thing. But there's so much pomp and circumstance meant to please so many people, that it kind of loses the individual impact. So the more I thought about this, the more I'm like, where is the playbook for how to honor these things within ourselves, and especially as queer people who have to write our own scripts for so much of our lives, because we don't see ourselves in pop culture. Thankfully, that's getting better. But, you know, I grew up in the 90s. And the only bisexual person I remember seeing was the character on my so called life who didn't immediately resonate with me. But I was just like, that's there was no representation. So finding ways that we can honor those big events in our lives, whether it's taking your first dose of HRT whether it's, you know, coming out whether it's going to your first queer, political action, all of these are kind of big deals. And how do we use magic to not only honor that moment, and give it the reverence and impact that it deserves? But how can we also use magic to give us more courage to go through it? How can we use magic to solidify our, our chosen family for example, like there's things that magic can really help with in our queer lives? So the reason I wrote this book is I had seen many rituals sort of scattered through a bunch of books for a few different queer rites of passage, but I hadn't seen one book that's like, here you go, this is your queer Grimoire This is everything you need for all your rites of passage. And so that's, that's what I put together.
Alex Iantaffi: It's so great, because rituals are so important, even outside of a pagan framework. You know, as a therapist, I often talk to people about the importance of rituals, like, even if it's everyday rituals, right? When I work with couples or poly kills, okay, how if you live together?
Alex Iantaffi: How do you create each other in the morning? How do you come back together? You know, how do you manage those transitions?
Alex Iantaffi: Right? And I don't know if it's because I'm neurodivergent or because I was brought up Catholic and then became pagan that I think that you know, and there's some good literature as well, why we need ritual as humans, but we need like, those intentional moments, right?
Alex Iantaffi: Because otherwise, we just go through life and, and that intentionality does bring like a sacredness with it. Right?
Alex Iantaffi: Especially, you know, when we do kind of pagan Rachel. And so when I saw that this was your next book, I was like, Yes, we absolutely need this. This is a great idea. And I know, it's something that people have really grappled with, right.
Alex Iantaffi: I've worked with a lot of young people where maybe they in their family and their faith community decided to do some sort of naming ritual when the transition, and it's so it has so many layers, right? It's not just for the young person, it's also for the family, the community, right? Because some ritual might be by ourselves.
Alex Iantaffi: But some rituals might be with other people, right, like, and enter just I think what I love about pagan rituals is that it's not about all this kind of things that capitalism puts on rites of passage and celebrations, but it's really like, what is our intention?
Alex Iantaffi: What is our focus, right? How do we do this? That is so exciting.
Alex Iantaffi: And like you said, there isn't anything like that. Because also, I don't know about you, but when I first came into paganism, how long ago is this?
Alex Iantaffi: over 25 years ago, at this point, I feel so old sometimes.
Alex Iantaffi: Maybe close to 30 years at this point, when I came into paganism. Gender was very binary there wasn't a lot of queerness in pagan spaces, at least in my experience, you know, first started exploring paganism in the UK and then I moved to the so called us over here but the just I mean, I think there's still not enough course spaces but definitely 25 For two years ago, even less so it was very much more than lady and Wicca you know, very binary. I don't know if that was your experience too. And if that was part of kind of your desire to produce some of the work the beautiful work you have done both in terms of teaching and books
Enfys J Book: Absolutely, it was part of my not only my spiritual journey, but my my own gender journey as well was having that moment of you know, I kind of came to sort of came to paganism late I had my first girlfriend in college introduced me to Wicca and we did like a couple little ritual things sort of, at our Catholic College. Very, very naughty. But then I didn't really start to explore and practice deeply apart from those couple of silver Raven wolf books that I got early on in their lives started to get into it. Yep, oh, we've all been there. And, you know, respect this. This was what we had. And it was great for the time and I know, silver is still producing some great stuff. But for me, I came into my tradition is a syncretic Wiccan tradition. And so I read a lot of stuff about Wicca. And as you say, there's a lot of Lord and Lady, there's a lot of like, myths for fertility cycles in the mythology, and very much heteronormative coupling, and all of that, and I sort of took it as wrote it first, which is sort of weird, considering, you know, I was a women's studies minor, you know, I am a queer person, I didn't quite know the non binary thing at the time when I started exploring, but it sort of hit me one day, I was like, you know, especially when we started learning about masculine and feminine energy. And this idea that, I call it sort of the IKEA theory of magic, you have this masculine form of energy, which is very active and projective and positive and this feminine energy, which is receptive, and negative and passive, and Insert Tab A into slot B, you get magic, right? And the more I thought about it, the more I'm like, okay, I can see, this is sort of training wheels, right?
Enfys J Book: This is the idea of, you know, there are so many different kinds of energy that it's overwhelming. So if we limit to two that sort of interact in a very simple way. That makes sense, but why do we have to call them masculine and feminine energy? Why can't we just call it projective and receptive?
Enfys J Book: Because when you look at how they are described, you know, masculine is active and positive and projective and feminine is receptive, and you know, all of that. It just sounds like gender roles under patriarchy. And we're basically just perpetuating that in our traditions. So to me, it's like, let's just sand off the gender labels, we don't need them, you can still use these types of energy, I think they exist. But why do we call them that? And why do we reinforce patriarchy with our teachings, I think is a big issue because it's still happening. It's not like it went away 10 years ago, you know, it's still a thing. And so one of the classes I teach is queering, your magical practice, and I have people think about that, and they're like, Are there only two types of energy, even if you are a dyed in the wool Wiccan, we still have things like the four elements, we still have the pentacle, like there's all these multifaceted energy interactions that transcend this binary gender metaphor. So just reminding people that the and the power of the liminal I think, is something a lot of us are familiar with, as well, the things that are both and neither. So thinking about that and thinking about, you know, if I'm calling to the divine masculine to the divine feminine, what about the divine both and neither? So that certainly exists and to ignore, it actually erases our history and our folklore, because we have so many gender fluid deities throughout pantheons.
Enfys J Book: And, you know, ones who change and who, you know, will disguise themselves as the other gender and you know, things like that.
Enfys J Book: So, it's, it's so important to widen our lens, like, I'm not trying to tell people, the goddess doesn't exist, you know, I certainly wouldn't do that.
Enfys J Book: But But widening our lens, and seeing there's more than just masculine and feminine, I think, is, is a really crucial message to get across to a lot of data.
Alex Iantaffi: And it's so reductive when we think about it, and just the small way, right? It's reductive of nature, there's a lot of queer reproduction in nature, right?
Alex Iantaffi: So it's also reductive of the just the magic that's inherent in the world. It feels like and yeah, I remember, I was now out as trans, not even to myself, when I first came into paganism, I was queer. And somehow even like, you know, I knew that, for example, Dianic traditions were not for me, there was just something that didn't work there, right? Even though I was reading a lot from some of the authors of the time, and then a lot of second wave feminist switches, right. And somehow the, that was just not resonating. Right, that didn't feel like quite fitting with my experience. And over the, you know, this last two or three decades, I've seen some attempts, you know, sometimes people are like, well, we have the LORD than lady, but it doesn't matter which gender the people are. And I was like, that's great. But you're still repeat, like you said, we're still reproducing the same messages. And we need to ask ourselves, where did some of those things came from? You know, because some of the things did come from like the 40s and the 50s, where gender roles were in a certain way. And when we take the much broader, you know, not just white supremacist, not just colonial perspective, actually so much more. Magic is so much more expensive, right?
Alex Iantaffi: And mysterious ones are so much more expensive and but sometimes it upsets people I remember saying to somebody was like, well, not all DD even apart from the gender bending DVDs, right?
Alex Iantaffi: Not all DVDs are kind of have to be sis and they're like, What do you mean, I was like, well, well, if prayer is more what we would call a trans woman that would make sense to me in terms of Amazon's and, like, I call it the animals like, the way we think about gender doesn't have to be biological, that something is kept pretty well. When you say things on what's been your experience of like really clearing pagans pieces when you teach her present? Like do you get any pushback? Do you get any kind of other no discomfort from folks or? Yeah.
Enfys J Book: I find that I'm usually teaching a workshop that is one of many at a conference and people tend to self select for what messages they want to hear. So I have not had a ton of pushback. But I do want to be careful when I teach especially I'm teaching at an event in in Glastonbury this summer. That's the goddess conference and a lot of is very goddess focused and I one thing I really respect about this event is they want to be extremely gender inclusive, and they made a point to invite lots of trans and non binary speakers including yours truly. So I love that they are pushing that especially given the location.
Enfys J Book: But I want to be very conscious of the fact that for a lot of people, finding goddess worship was revolutionary. for them having been brought up in a patriarchal religion with one masculine God, finding something that better reflects who they are inside or forces that they want to honor. Even if they don't personally identify with them, they want to honor this other side of things. I want to respect that, and I don't want to be like, you know, just throw it all out. And we're all, you know, it's all queer Gods now.
Enfys J Book: And that's it. So I want to be careful, because I want to respect where people are coming from. But I do want to gently pry open the viewpoint just a little bit where I can. And sometimes I do feel a little nervous, because I will be speaking to my own tradition, where a lot of people are just like, masculine, feminine, you know, that's what it is. And I'm like, Okay, but what about more?
Enfys J Book: Like, how can we take it to the next level? And that's the framework I try to go from, rather than, like, everything we've done before is wrong. How do we take it to the next level?
Enfys J Book: How do we expand on that and make it more all encompassing, because as you say, it's, it's not only erasing a lot of our folklore, and you know, our deities, but also human existence, like, we have trans people, we have intersex people, we have all kinds of things that you want your magic to encompass kind of the totality of human existence, human animal and everything else. So because queer people exist, queer, magical things exist and should be honored and recognized.
Alex Iantaffi: Yeah, and I totally agree with you. And I know, I mean, even for me, like, you know, I'm, I was born in 71, you know, like, just kind of the divine feminine, you know, second way I was brought up a second wave feminists, you know, that when I have a degree, a PhD in women's studies, it was called women's studies of the time, you know, and it's no use to teach Women's Studies. And so it is really powerful. And I want to be respectful of legacy and at the same time, knowing that there is so much more, right, because I think it's, it's easy to just kind of think, that Kedah know, 30 years or 40 years or 50 years, right, rather than this much bigger picture of how did we come to be under Christian supremacy? What does it mean to reclaim some of our traditions? And some of our histories, you know, depending of where, where our ancestors are, right? And it's such a both end work for me if that makes sense, right? That there was something that I was grasping, I in my mind around the limiting, that it doesn't just impact I was thinking as you were talking, I don't think this only impacts trans and queer folks and intersex folks. I think it also impacts just sis people, even sis straight people, you know, I think about how much importance for example, we give sometimes to the womb, you know, the warm house like general, like life and creativity. And I've seen sis women go through a real identity crisis, if they needed to have an hysterectomies, for example.
Alex Iantaffi: What does it mean? If have a hysterectomy due to health issue? Does that make me less of a powerful witch? Does that make me less of a woman? Where does my power come from? Right? When we attached to like an organ?
Alex Iantaffi: You know, like, that's where life comes from. That's where magic comes from creativity comes from, I think it can be really hurtful to everybody that I don't know, does that make sense? It just feels like I don't know, if you've absolutely seeing just how if we reduce things to small how that impacts folks.
Enfys J Book: Certainly, and back when I thought I was CES, we all have those periods. Back when I thought I was just I never wanted to have children. I had no interest in bearing children naturally in adopting them anything. And so when people are like, Oh, the mighty power of the womb, I'm like, no, like, That's not. That's not where I feel my source of power is that's not I do not, I did not opt into these factory specs. And I do not wish to I would like to void the warranty like and you eat that out of my system. But and so having people be like, well, to be truly a woman is to the end. It's like, no, it's about so much more. And it's one of the things I loved was the book jailbreaking The Goddess that takes that sort of triplicate form that a lot of people love maiden mother Crone.
Enfys J Book: But like have we had that if we don't tie it to reproductive cycles, and your ability to bear children, whether you foreign children, whether you're too old to bear children, is kind of a as you say, reductive way to look at the lifecycle of a sis woman. There's so much more so taking that into this five fold model that was arefox. Allen does, where it's different fate you could be any of them in any phase of life, I think was really important work and the time One thing we really need to continue doing and paying attention to is, you know, while a lot of people do feel tremendous power from their fertility and their ability to create children, and I want to respect that it is not everybody's experience. And so when, as you say, we tie our magic specifically to that one aspect that is just one part of being a human, it really makes it harder for other people to find themselves in the magic, whether they're sis trans or otherwise,
Alex Iantaffi: you know, and even, which is so interesting, because I was a gestational parent for my oldest child, you know, and it's, for me, I was like, Oh, my body's finally doing exactly what it was meant to do. I had the least gender dysphoria when I was pregnant, which I know is not true for other trans masculine people, right. But there was something about that experience that worked for me, but not in that paradigm of like, motherhood, you know, that didn't quite fit, you know, but like the Yes, gestation is its own experience, just like aging, it's its own experience, just like transitioning. It's its own experience, right, we're, we're such multifaceted human and I love what you said about also the power of the liminal. You know, as I am that I think that when we put things into like tidy boxes or binaries, then we lose a bit of that power of the liminal maybe. And I would love for you to talk more about that, that power. I think that one thing that queerness brings to magic is the liminality. Right, the power of the liminal. But I would love to hear like your thoughts about liminality and magic and gender, and queerness, if you want to.
Enfys J Book: Of course, yeah, it reminds me of one of my favorite slides I've ever created for our workshop is explaining to people many of the different labels of queerness, the different types of queerness, you know, gender, queer, gender, fluid, all of these different like sort of non binary labels. And then the next slide is just a friendly reminder to folks that you don't get to determine anyone else's identity, people get to pick their own labels, because as any cat will tell you, having someone else put you in a box is an entirely different experience from you getting into a box yourself. So, you know, just reminding people like you know, remember be a cat you know, the remember what it's like to be a cat and don't get it don't put other people in boxes they don't want to be in. So yeah, the power of the liminal is, is so profound, and it's something I continue to explore. Because we're coming out of the Age of Pisces into the Age of Aquarius and Pisces loves, like black and white, this or that, you know, this box or this box, there is no in between and the Age of Aquarius is much more hey, what if it's, you know, a lot more fluid than that. And I'm really excited. We're coming into that era, because there's so much more opportunity to for expansive thought in that. So within my magic, I try to be open to all sorts of different energies and spirits. And one of the things with my first book, queer Kabbalah that I found particularly profound, just in a simple look at the structure of the tree of life, is that you have what some people call the masculine pillar, and what some call the feminine pillar, but then you have one in between, that's the pillar of balance.
Enfys J Book: And in that pillar of balance, it takes the energies from the other two pillars and transmutes them into something new and something different and something more powerful. So this idea that, yes, perhaps we do have these binaries. But then there's this thing that's both and neither that that gets us from the ultimate perfect unity of the universe down to the chaos of manifestation. And all of the things this infinite manifestation that we live in of all different genders and sexualities, and people of all different types. And the fact that those are both those experiences were both on this middle pillar, they're not considered masculine experiences or feminine experiences, they are considered this, both and neither. And I think that's what creation is. It's, it's everything and, and it's both profound, intense unity, but also infinite, compelling, wonderful diversity. And for me, that's an incredibly profound magical concept.
Alex Iantaffi: I love that I really want to stay with that a moment because I think that is part of what I really love about your work is that, that expansiveness right that that and that expansiveness does feel there's something sacred in that expansiveness Straight, there's something very, like secret and connecting about that expensiveness. Whereas, you know what, I find that whenever I come across traditions where things are like, it's this and this right, very binary, this Lord and Lady, everybody just feels a little more scrunched up, regardless of their gender identity, right, there's just more constriction. And so I love you know, why constraint? Why try to constrict magic when magic can be just as expansive as life? Right? I mean, it is life, right is that spark of creation, that spark of life?
Alex Iantaffi: And that is so expansive? And in a way, its own mystery, right?
Alex Iantaffi: of both? And neither, like you said, and yes, presence and absence at the same time and all of that.
Enfys J Book: I think expensive.
Enfys J Book: This is our word for the podcast, I think between us, we've probably said it about 2030 times now, which I'm totally fine with completely true. But you know, and it's also it's a challenge that I offer to people who are in positions of power with in various pagan traditions, is to consider are you really being inclusive? Or are you just sort of painting a label on something like, I know, within the OTO, there was a whole situation with like, oh, yeah, non binary people can be priests, they just have to decide if they're going to be the masculine, feminine and ritual. And it's like, that's, that's not the same as being inclusive. That is forcing people to make a choice or like, well, we always stand boy, girl, boy, girl, and circle. So just decide which one you're going to be. And it's like, a that's, that's what, it's the antithesis of being non binary, you know, being asked to choose. It's like, no, that's we've made a choice that is neither Thank you, or neither, or both. So I think that's something that there are folks, particularly who are maybe from older generations who are trying to catch up and want to be inclusive and want to bring in new people. But they're not asking those people how they could feel included, and they're just sort of making assumptions about what works. And then they're surprised when they don't get new members who are more gender expansive, they're like, but but we put the label on the thing, like, you know, that's it's not the same. We need to be not just allies, but co creators of spaces that are welcoming and inclusive and affirming and empowering to people of all different genders and sexualities. If you just say, Oh, you're welcome to our picnic, but you better do things exactly the way they've been done for the last 5060 years.
Enfys J Book: And by the way, just sort of overlook the fact that they make you feel alienated. That's not welcomed,
Alex Iantaffi: trying to assimilate people in you know, it's like that. And I see that with, in so many traditions around, I mean, even in my own reclaiming tradition, and some of the work of like, wanting to be more welcoming to like folks of color, but then not wanting to do things differently. And I'm like, Well, this is not how it's gonna work. Like, if you have new people into the circle are gonna bring change. That's just how humans work. Right? If our circle broadens, then our circle is gonna change. And that's part of the beauty of creation and relationship and interdependence. And yeah, I'm with you, I see so much of like, you were like, I remember, people don't you're totally welcome to this moon circle. And I was like, and are trans women.
Alex Iantaffi: Welcome, if it's a women only space, and why am I welcome?
Alex Iantaffi: Right? Because I'm a woman, you know, and I'm like, that is not that doesn't make me feel welcome actually makes me feel really erased and unseen and not okay. You know, and I remember having this conversations over and over, and often with people my age or even younger than I am, you know, not just for people older than me. And I think that that's the thing, so many queer folks have been present in paganism by being like how to push out of tradition or at the edges of tradition, because I know folks in their late 60s and 70s, who are like, we would say gender queer or trans or non binary, obviously, I mean, the non binary language wasn't even there. When I first came out. I think I went from gender queer to trans masculine, you know, to non binary, like, what is even language right? But there's always been this parent, but it's been like pushed aside and now there is just it's almost like a number game. There's just such a presence. You know, even the last witch camp I was that there were so many trans non binary and queer younger witches. I was like, Oh, my traditional because I've taken a little break during the pandemic. The tradition is changing, you know that there's many more of us or than fat necessarily into certain boxes.
Alex Iantaffi: And that that's changed things because you know, if there's one or two of you is different than if there are 1020 30 of you right in a circle.
Enfys J Book: Right? On the COVID cocoon was really profound for a lot of us, myself, included, you know, when you take us away from our social spaces for long enough, and we have to examine Who am I apart from what people expect me to be, suddenly, things happen. But one thing I'm very fortunate within my tradition, because while our charter when I, you know, came out as non binary and then at the same time was looking to become one of the leaders of our tradition to run my coven. I was like, Look, you know, I'm non binary and our it says, Every cupboard has to have a high priest and a high priestess. And we currently had a high priestess in my Coven, who was the, you know, sis woman. And I said, you know, if the only thing preventing me from filling the leadership void when our high priests left, yeah, is a penis, that's stupid.
Enfys J Book: And, you know, I'm, I'm non binary, I feel like I shouldn't be able to step is, is this charter saying, I can't be a leader because I don't identify as a priest or a priestess. And ultimately, we got the tradition to change the charter. And it was kind of a non a no brainer for the tradition. They're like, yeah, obviously, we should do this. And now it says two leaders for every Coven and leaves it at that. So yeah, the main reason it was in there, I believe, was so that nobody tried to form a single gender coven. Because they wanted to make sure that there is welcomed diversity and all of our covens gender and otherwise. So I'm glad that we have that consciousness, but also now the rules that say, basically, anyone can be a leader. And I'm not the only one who's done that too. We now have other covens with two sis women leading them where before, there was no way for someone who is a sis woman to step up and a coven that already had a high priestess. So it's been good for cis people as well. Not really limiting who is able to be leadership based on who's already there. Actually, when
Alex Iantaffi: We think about gender and leadership, and especially like in pagan spaces, where it's often it tends to be more traditionally I think, fam folks than like cis men, for example, in my experience, and so then you get this man coming in going straight into leadership straight into teaching straight into Oh, you know, we need to have a man on the team otherwise, right? And it's like, it's just like, oh, this is like the, you know, mundane world all over again.
Alex Iantaffi: You know, I've been in a lot of like, female majority professions, but male dominated leadership, right? education, healthcare. I was like, oh, magic, nonprofits, nonprofits, no doubt. And so it's like, it's like, the penis was like this highway into leadership. And I'm like, is this really nice? T shirt?
Enfys J Book: Yeah, I just think that's a great slogan.
Alex Iantaffi: And I was like, Do we really need to do that in pagan circles, especially because it's like, on one hand, it is very goddess centered still, in a lot of ways, which is powerful in a Christian supremacist kind of over culture. But then it's again, this like this patriarchy. And this pipeline to leadership was really favored man in a lot of traditions, in my experience.
Enfys J Book: Yeah, same here.
Enfys J Book: And that was something that I was noticing as well within my tradition. And it puts a lot of pressure on men to like, it's not necessarily a good thing for them, either. Because there's kind of pressure like, well, we don't have a high priest, we've only got one dude in the coven.
Enfys J Book: Guess what? You're going to be a leader, even if they're super not ready for that. So it wasn't necessarily good.
Alex Iantaffi: You like it or not? You have to, you know, fit into this role. Absolutely. So, yeah, I have so many thoughts about that. And I was like, I could talk for quite a while you and I think that I know one of the things I was kind of looking at like mellow notes, because I usually make myself just some very loose notes of like, things I could talk about with this guest. Really, this kind of we've talked a little bit about it, but I'm just really curious about while you know, to kind of go back to the beginning, what were the rights when you were writing the book that's coming out in early in 2025? What were the rights that maybe you didn't immediately Think about that, as you were writing the book, you're like, oh, yeah, this rights linked to queerness are linked to gender even, that maybe were a little bit more unexpected or not quite what was right there on the surface, if that makes sense.
Enfys J Book: Yeah, so I turned in my initial draft of the book, and my editor came back saying, This is great, give us a few more rituals. And it was like, I have already encapsulated all of queer experience like, I hadn't, but you know, I was like, I'm out of ideas. What do I do? And I sort of pulled aside a couple of my queer friends like help.
Enfys J Book: And they had some good ideas.
Enfys J Book: Thankfully. i My friend, Reverend Ron padrone said, What about going to your first queer political action. And I was like, Oh, that is a good one.
Enfys J Book: Because for a lot of people, they don't actually get involved in politics until they realize how very personal those politics are. So for a lot of people coming out may be pretty closely tied to their first political action, whether it's specifically a queer one or not.
Enfys J Book: And that is a scary thing. And in a previous job, I actually helped train people to become grassroots advocates, and how to call your members of Congress and why it's not as scary as it sounds, and all of that kind of thing. Pro tip for anyone listening, if you have resisted doing this a you can call after hours, leave a voicemail and not talk to a human if you want, it has the same impact. Be the person answering the phone as an intern, and they have no interest or time and debating you. So do not be afraid call do the thing. It makes a bigger impact than emailing anyway, that's the short version of everything I did for two years.
Enfys J Book: But But anyway, I thought, yeah, that's a scary thing for people.
Enfys J Book: People are scared to get involved politically, and you know, especially with how literally dangerous certain protests are and things. What do people need, it's a rite of passage, but it also can be a very scary thing. So I'm calling up the courage of our queer ancestors And our queer advocate ancestors. And in that ritual actually challenged people to find a local queer ancestor who was politically active if they can, someone from their region, who they can call into their spirit and say, Hey, will you walk with me today as I do the scary thing, so that was one that wasn't immediately obvious, but I think it would be helpful.
Enfys J Book: Another one, I kind of resisted doing ones related to romantic relationships, because I thought, it's not a uniquely queer thing to have a romantic relationship. But then the more I thought about it, the more like, you know, if you've gone through your life, assuming you're straight or sis, your first time entering a relationship, where one of at least one of you is queer, can be kind of a new thing, especially if you've come to a recent understanding of yourself that's different from what it has been, there can be a tendency to sort of slide back into previous patterns, of maybe things that didn't work for you in the past. And of course, we can do this with all relationships, right? But like, if you have just come out as a trans man, and you're getting into a relationship, maybe with a cisgender person, maybe with another trans person, but maybe you feel compelled to act a certain way based on history and what you have done. So how can you have a rite of passage that helps you step into that relationship as your authentic self, and not compromise that?
Enfys J Book: And the more I thought about that, I'm like, okay, yeah, this wasn't something I originally wanted to write about. But now I think it is actually really important to your first queer relationship is kind of a big deal. And how do you make sure that you don't either devolve into stereotype or, or just like, especially if you are with someone who is not queer, I think there's also a concern about erasing yourself or a fear with someone who's queer, but not out. There's some interesting dynamics there. So those were two of the new ones that I wrote, I'm trying to think of what the third one was, because I came up with three new ones to add, and it's just escaped my brain. But yeah, those were a couple that weren't immediately like, yes, of course, we need a ritual for this. But the more I thought about it, the more I thought, no we do, we do need rituals for
Alex Iantaffi: these things, where relationships in particular rituals can be so important because we know that relationships have a higher chance of ending if there isn't support, for example, from people around you right from the community. And that is one of the challenges that queer relationships face or I remember, you know, one of my friends talking about how scary it was to hold the hand of somebody of the same gender for the first time, which was also cultural, right? Because for me, I was like, oh, culturally, I've done a lot of holding hands with my like friends of the same gender growing up, but not everybody does. That was that historical and cultural moment where that wasn't seen as queer Whereas my peers in other geographical spaces left the UK in the US, and that of my generation had experienced that being seen as queer and inappropriate, right? And so all the things that we don't think about, or like, the first time I went to pride, I still remember my first big London pride, right? And it's like just that coming into this, like sea of people, you know, and how powerful that can be.
Alex Iantaffi: Absolutely. Those moments are rites of passage they do. You know, it's like, who you were before and who you were, after that moment is different in some way, you are changed and transformed. And that is magic, right?
Enfys J Book: Yeah, and you just reminded me what the third one is, it's a ritual for going into your first queer community event or space. As like, you know, because yeah, it can be scary, it can be so scary. And you don't just do rite of passage rituals, because you're afraid but, but they do have the ability to help bolster you and help you step bravely into a new phase of your life and all the different things that
Alex Iantaffi: I find the magic is like, so grounding and strengthening for me that when I get caught up in the grind of the day, today, and if I, if my practice goes on the wayside, that really impacts right my ability and capacity to engage with the world, right, just, there's something about my spiritual practice that really expands my capacity to be present with myself with my work with my family. And it's just I don't know if it's that intentionality if it has that connection to something greater than we are as individuals, but it does give us strength, you know, which we might need, like, I remember, yeah, just standing on the other side of the street to the gay pub, like, you know, Saturday night after Saturday night, not just not being able to go in, right, or like, calling the helpline because the internet wasn't quite as what it is now, or, you know, then finally going into my first like, queer coffee shop, which, you know, or the first time I went into a queer feminist tech store, you know, all of those moments are pretty pivotal and important in people's lives.
Alex Iantaffi: Yeah.
Enfys J Book: Yeah, the first time you take on new pronouns, and tell it having the courage to tell people about it, having the courage to correct people after you've told them about it, and they mess it up. There's a lot and just the trying to get past the imposter syndrome. of it, especially I grew up in Minnesota. And there is a cultural thing there with like, not wanting to be a bother to people, not wanting to make anyone make an effort for you, you got to be easy, you know, super easy to deal with, and you don't want to make waves. But, so having to overcome that, because there's, oh, I don't deserve to be respected in this way. Because it's hard for people to respect me in this way. Coming to the point where you're like, No, I deserve to be respected in this way. And even if it's a bother, even if it's hard for somebody, I'm going to keep asking them or demanding that they respect me in this way, because I would do the same.
Alex Iantaffi: I'm deeply familiar. Having lived in Minnesota for the past 16 years.
Alex Iantaffi: Yeah, it'll be 16 years this summer. With the midwest of Minnesota and culture of like not being a bad or not being a burden, you know, not wanting to eat the last thing left on a plate, you know, my Oh,
Enfys J Book: my Oh, whatever eats the last cookie ever. Maybe that's how we got the the whole thing about leaving an offering for like the ancestors of the spirits is no one would eat the last one. So pagans here. Here's the thing that kills me it just this isn't necessarily on topic, but I spent, I lived in Minnesota from age two to 25. So I spent 23 years of my life there. And I started to dabble in paganism in college. As I said, I went to college and St.
Enfys J Book: Paul. I had no idea how big the pagan community was until I had been gone for 10 years. I lived in Maryland, and people were like, I still live in Maryland.
Enfys J Book: I've been here since 2005. So almost 20 years at this point, and be like, Oh, you're from Minnesota, you must have been so active in the pagan culture of like, what pagan culture I had no clue. None. I knew two pagans total in my whole life that I was aware of, and just no idea.
Enfys J Book: And then I found out that like, my dad had gone to classes, like when I was a teenager, like up in Minneapolis on on various esoteric topics, and I'm like, could you have told me about these? I would have liked to have gone to those when I got older, you know? So yeah, it's it's one of those fascinating things. I never knew and coming to pick on a con and seeing how many people are there. I'm like, Are you kidding me? Where were all of you my whole life? I would have loved to know all of you, especially with how many folks there are there
Alex Iantaffi: There is culture, I have to say in some ways, right? There was this like, an accident, there was like a huge pagan community, a huge queer and trans community, you know.
Alex Iantaffi: And also, like a queer nerd, a big nerdy community, a big polyamorous community, I think, underneath the surface, but you kind of have to look for it. I remember when I first moved there was like, oh, where's the community? And people were like, there isn't one. And I'm like, Okay, give me five minutes.
Alex Iantaffi: Like, there's seriously just a little bit more underground than say, like the West Coast, for example. But it's there. And it's actually pretty, pretty large. All of the scenes are pretty big here, Minnesota, which is not what people think sometimes when they think about the state.
Enfys J Book: Yeah, and since I left, y'all got burlesque and roller derby. Like, where was that when I was like, that would have been so cool to get involved in. But, you know, it's okay. Like, I guess places I left are allowed to evolve and change and get better, I suppose.
Alex Iantaffi: But that's okay.
Alex Iantaffi: But yeah, like, I feel like I was born like 30 2040 years too early. Now, that would be all this cool things that totally wanted to do as a kid or as a young person, you know, but it's like, it's so interesting. Oh, yeah.
Enfys J Book: Well, and circling back to the queer rites of passage book, like I said, I want this to be the manual, but I want it to sort of be a gift to my past self to not only be able to look through this and say, Oh, these are things people can do. But also, just so like, yes, going through, this is a big deal, even if our culture doesn't necessarily tell you that. And it's okay to make a big deal of it and honor it, and honor your emotions around it, because they can be pretty intense. So I'm, I'm really hopeful that this book is found by a lot of younger folks, I'm hoping it's found by people of all ages, of course, but like, if someone's really starting, whatever their age, their gender journey, their sexuality journey, I'm hoping they can find this book and be like, oh, and then and feel better.
Enfys J Book: Because rites of passage are anchors to the self, I think they tell us where we've been, where we are and where we're going. And I feel like it's one thing we really lack culturally, right now is those anchors to the self, and who am I where I've been, and where I'm going, we sort of have this weird miasma right now of, we've just, we're still in 2016. Like so many of us, we're still in 2016.
Enfys J Book: And 2020, time is a flat circle.
Enfys J Book: And we now more than ever, we need to have those moments where you put a line in the sand and say, This is where I am, this is who I am.
Alex Iantaffi: And what I love is that they are an anchor to itself. And they can also be an anchor to community. If we have like a circle of people that we want buy into some of those rites of passage, then it's also an anchor to each other. And I think we need that relational piece more than ever, you know, remembering how to be a community how to be in relationship with each other, how to support one another, right? How to really see ourselves through the end of empire and late stage capitalism, you know, and everything that we're going through right now.
Enfys J Book: Yeah, and I'm so grateful for, you know, of course, everyone's we stand on the shoulders of giants, right?
Enfys J Book: The people who wrote the first queer magical books that I read, Misha Magdalene, Cassandra snow, like, there's been such amazing work Ariana serpentine more recently, who also wrote the foreword for queer rights, which I'm really excited about. I was like, I really want to make sure I have as many trans voices involved in this as possible. So I, I think it's we're in a wonderful time, as you say, it's like, how was I born way too early? Because there's this explosion of queer magic. Yes, books and information and circles and groups, and it's wonderful. It's absolutely wonderful. And I'm so thankful that I got to a point in my journey where I could write a book and release it at a time when that book was desired, you know, by the publisher, and not like, oh, you know, just, oh, you're perverts get out of here.
Enfys J Book: Yeah. It's, it's like, no, this is a community we need to reach.
Enfys J Book: These are people who we want to have as customers, buying our books. I mean, it's an incredible time to be alive in a lot of ways and a terrifying time for many other reasons.
Enfys J Book: But, but it's, I compare it to what I grew up with. Oh, how differently Like,
Alex Iantaffi: even when I went through my initiation, you know that finding information about queerness and magic, you really had to look at like, history.
Alex Iantaffi: You know, I remember reading blossom a bone, you know, to understand like how Oh yeah, they've always been like, queer people, right? But it was a much more like, historical perspective rather than here's like queer magic where spirit, right? And of course, you know, really honoring the work those like radical theories have done, you know, for better or worse and all the challenges around trans inclusivity. But still, right. And it doesn't surprise me that there always been a lot of queer and trans folks in paganism because often, we were the spirit workers, the healers, the edge walkers, right in a lot of traditions and cultures. And so it's, it's almost like, as we're going through this moment, of really challenging, you know, white supremacy and colonialism, it makes sense to me that there is also this explosion of queer spirit, which is beautiful.
Enfys J Book: Yeah, and paganism tends to draw people from the margins in one way or another, like this, this isn't the place to go if you're afraid of seeming weird, you know? Like, or if you are, you're gonna get over it fairly quickly, I think because, you know, there's always that moment early in your practice where you're like, I feel very silly. Right now I am standing in front of my end table holding a stick and saying a chant. And I haven't quite gotten to the mental place of no, this is an altar and a wand and a sacred thing. I you know, we all have those moments of just, yep, I, I am being very weird right now. And you kind of have to be okay with that at a point. So those of us on the fringes are kind of used to being outcasts, and behaving in ways that people would not expect or desire. And so yeah, a lot of us come to paganism, which is part of why we need to be really make good efforts to be inclusive of people of all different backgrounds, sexualities, genders, races, ethnicities, like everything, we really need to meet people where they're at and help them blossom into the best version of them, they can be not the best version of what we think they should
Alex Iantaffi: be. That's beautiful. I feel like I could talk with you for like another three hours, but I want to be respectful of your time. But maybe we'll just have to do another episode. I love repeat guests. So just do it that way.
Alex Iantaffi: You will.
Enfys J Book: I would love that!
Alex Iantaffi: One question I always ask before we ended episode is was there anything else that we haven't talked about? That you were hoping we would touch on? I always like to you know, and if there isn't, that's okay. But always like to ask that question. Um,
Enfys J Book: I think we had a wonderful conversation. The one like little question I had in my mind for you actually, is I'm wondering about your relationship with labels within the queer community as another person who is non binary because I have sort of this paradoxical relationship, but I'm curious if you are similar, like labeling yourself genderqueer versus non binary versus
Alex Iantaffi: what question, you know, I find that I love language. You know, my first degree is in linguistics. And I've always looked at language as like ever evolving, interesting thing that we do between people, right communication seems so simple but it is not that simple. And so in terms of labels, I feel like I've embraced so many different labels over the lifespan for myself, you know, and I'm not super attached, you know, in a way, when the non binary label came out, I was like, oh, yeah, that is a better description. Right. But I am, but I do also feel like, you know, not every non binary person feels that way. But I also do feel trans and gender actually, I'm not an androgynous person, right. Like, I have my I have queer masculinity, but that's different than androgyny.
Alex Iantaffi: Right. And so I think that language is so interesting, and it's so relational, right?
Alex Iantaffi: Because it's like, in some communities, I would probably describe myself as a trans faggot, you know, in a reclaimed kind of way. But that is not something that I would necessarily put like, in my public facing world because it's not the most accessible of language for a lot of people. So for me, it's also like, what am I trying to communicate to the world, right? So when I say I'm trans masculine, non binary, I'm trying to communicate that yes, I'm trans masculine, but now I'm not a trans man. It's a little more complicated than that right? Or when you know our label, like I have a lot of fondness and attachment to the label of bisexual because As I feel like I owe so much to my community, for how they helped me when I went through my own identity crisis of like, you know, or I guess I'm not a dyke, or in government, I guess I'm also not a woman, this is getting complicated. And I feel like my community could really hold that complexity in a way that I hadn't found in other parts of queer communities. And so, I don't know if that answers your question, but I have a very, like fluid and relational, I guess. relationship with language and labels, and I'm like, oh, maybe in 20 years, I'll call myself something else.
Alex Iantaffi: Because better language, you know, I've one of my friends was like, I hate non binary. It's just why do we have to? It's like negating right? When we we defining ourselves according to the binary, I'm like, I can see that. But you know, it's also very comprehensible in the outside world at the moment, rather than just having to go like, well, I have the queer masculinity. And I'm trans. And that's a lot of words compared to like, non binary, right? I don't know. Right? Yeah. What about you?
Enfys J Book: Yeah, I feel you I, I think it's been so interesting to see the proliferation of labels and identities and helping us better understand the nuances of our gender and sexuality. And not only understand them, but also connect to people who use the same label and fight Oh, you're like me, you get it. But on the other hand, there's this thing with labels to box people in and to be limiting. So it's, it's a real gift to have that fluid relationship with them. But the outside world doesn't really jive with that most of the time.
Enfys J Book: Like, but wait, I thought you said you were this now you're this, you know, and it's like, well, I didn't tell you I was Xenogender, because you wouldn't know what that meant. And it would be a longer conversation than I felt like having at the time, you know, so I just say non binary, because that's a word a lot of people know. So, but it's, it's that thing of like trying to find the right one. And then sometimes the right one goes out of style, like the conversation about by versus pansexuality. Sometimes I will often say I'm bisexual, sometimes I say I'm by slash pan. You know, it's, it's kind of a circular conversation that I'm like, I'm not really sure where I want to put myself here.
Enfys J Book: I'm, it's like, everyone is hot.
Enfys J Book: And I am scared. That's my sexuality. Like all the different flavors, but But yeah, it's this interesting thing where there's pressure to choose an exact label that may or may not fit you in five or 10 years time and does if it doesn't fit you does that negate that label later? It's just, it's one of those sorts of complicated, largely non binary things that I curious what other non binary people think so thank you for indulging me.
Alex Iantaffi: I love talking about language and oh my god, they're all bike versus panting.
Alex Iantaffi: I'm just like, it's okay. Like, kind of adjacent, but also different. I'm like, I am not like, you know, and I'm like, gender plays a role in my attraction. Like, I'm mostly attracted to, like, masculinity, regardless of gender identity, which is also an interesting thing, you know, and also like, and queer genders, right? But there isn't a way of saying that. It's like, I'm attracted to queer this mostly, and kind of queer masculinity or something that queers, like are very masculine, like fans, for example, right? And just something that fears the expectation of gender. And so for me by fits better than and because I've had people like, why don't you call yourself pansexual? It's like, you know, I feel like the definition of transsexual is like, regardless of gender, and I'm like, the gender plays a factor. My attraction, which is not better or worse, it's just different.
Alex Iantaffi: And maybe it's where my neuro divergence Yeah, the specificity of it. Which it's a thing in our house, right? We'll get specific, it can be a very interesting moment. There's a lot of Jordan divergence, but I'm, like, accurate.
Enfys J Book: I hear you, I think I put a glossary in the queer rights book. And I define bisexuality and pansexuality.
Enfys J Book: And I say shares heavy overlap with the other and the nuances may be different depending on who you talk to. It's kind of where I left it. I'm like, I'm sort of stepping out of this one.
Alex Iantaffi: thing is that there was no buy versus pan that I was aware of, like 25 years ago, you know, and now it has become more of a thing. And it's been also really interesting to for people be like, what homosexuality is like, excludes trans people as like, not any more than any of the other sexuality labels. What, like, no, that's not my experience. So it was interesting I'll in the desire to be inclusive we can become, actually make up things that don't need to be there if that makes sense. I was like, total sensory of bi and trans movements like collaborating and finding each other and trans people in my community and by people in trans community. I was like, the overlap is huge. What are your look? You know what I mean? It's like, when this whole discourse exploded, I was like, What, What is even happening?
Alex Iantaffi: When did this come from? But yeah, so language? Yes, it's fast. Yes. So fast. Yes.
Enfys J Book: Yeah, I was an English major too. So I also share your love of language, both as a former English major and also neurodivergent person, and always craving that specificity. Beautiful
Alex Iantaffi: when you get it when it's just the right word for the right experience. It's amazing. So love it. Oh, wow, this has been wonderful. And I know I'll put all the links in the episode description. But if people wanted to find you and your wonderful work, where should they look for you?
Enfys J Book: The easiest places is my website, which is majorarqueerna.com That's majorarqueerna.com. I'm@majorarqueerna on Instagram and Facebook. I am no longer on the network formerly known as Twitter. So if you see someone pretending to be me, that's not me. But if you want to follow my personal stuff, and see my cats and whatnot, you can find me@enfysbook on Instagram and@enfysbook@kind.social on Mastodon.
Alex Iantaffi: Thank you so much for making the time to be on gender stories today. I so enjoyed this conversation. And your listeners. I hope you enjoyed this conversation about picking this up and queerness and magic, which I don't think we've had quite this in this way before. So thank you, Enfys, for coming on gender stories, and maybe to the next episode that we'll do together.
Enfys J Book: That'd be wonderful. It's been an honor Alex, thank you so much, listeners.
Alex Iantaffi: Until next time, I hope you find your own way to feel expansive and your own rites of passage for whatever you want to mark in your own life.