Alex Iantaffi: Hello, and welcome to another episode of gender stories as ever, and you know, if you listen to my podcast, I am excited because I always have the best guests. And today, I am thrilled to be interviewing Justine Mastin who is an LMFT. So a fellow Marriage and Family Therapist and colleague together and I'm just kidding, thank you for being here. Thank you, as well as being an awesome human being.
Alex Iantaffi: She's a pop culture, psychology expert, and so much more. She literally wrote the book on therapeutic fanfiction. And also, I've seen her present on this topic and she's magnificent. But the book is Starship Therapize using therapeutic conviction to rewrite your life. And she's also offer support to therapists and healers. In their most more recent book, The Grieving Therapist: Caring for Yourself and Your Client When It Feels Like The End of the World, which is pretty much everyday as far as I'm concerned, right nowadays. And if you're watching the podcast, you can see the cover of The Grieving Therapist, I lent Starship Therapize out so I don't have it with me, that's how great it is I lent it out.
Alex Iantaffi: But both books are really wonderful. And more than that, Justine also has two podcasts, Yoga Quest is the fearless leader of Yoga Quest, you do so many things. And she's also proud to nurture future therapists as an AAMFT approved supervisor and educator and as a TEDx talk. And don't worry, dear listeners, I'm putting all of this links in the description.
Alex Iantaffi: So you can go check out the million things that Justine does! so welcome. just seen. So
Justine Mastin: thank you so much for having me. And thank you for that lovely intro. Yes.
Justine Mastin: Sometimes when I hear it all recited back to me, I think maybe I need to slow my roll.
Alex Iantaffi: I know that feeling so as a follow over door. Not that I'm saying you're overdoing it, but I your website, and I was like, Oh, how do you even find time to do all those things?
Justine Mastin: Yeah, I just do.
Justine Mastin: Although the longer answer is that I have wonderful people around me who support me. And, you know, for both of the books, Starship Therapize, and The Grieving Therapist, I have a co author who also happens to be my very best friend in the world, who is also a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Larisa A.
Justine Mastin: Garskii. I, I would never want to write alone.
Alex Iantaffi: I know that failing, I wrote like one book alone. Books I co authored for a reason with my writing partner, MJ, who is also one of my closest people. So I clearly understand how important it is to have people you collaborate with and who support you. And then you can do things with it's just, yes, none of us do those things alone or outside of community, I don't think. So let's talk about let's start from Starship Therapize, because that's how I first became aware of you.
Justine Mastin: Oh, is that right? That's always fun, to find out how people heard about me!
Alex Iantaffi: I know , right.
Alex Iantaffi: You didn't know this. Because we haven't talked about this. But that's how I became aware of kind of you and your work. And I was so excited. Because I also have a lot of geeky clients. And it was so wonderful to see another therapist who not only work with the community, but you also provide a lot of tools to therapists on how to use fanfiction and how to use kind of fandom to connect with clients in a therapeutic manner.
Alex Iantaffi: And so I one of the things I'm curious about, given that this is Gender Stories is that in my experience, and it could be just because I'm older, I don't know, like my 50s. But fandom communities haven't always been the most welcoming in terms of any gender was basically not a cis man or people who are racialized, not white or disabled folks. And of course, there are exceptions like Wiscon, which was one of my, you know, Oh, yeah. Sounds like a science fiction and fantasy convention. That's like a feminist social justice focused, kind of broader, kind of geeky community as at its challenges, let's say to be Midwestern, perhaps around kind of differences and diversity and anything that deviates from kind of the stereotypical fan let's call it usually a cis white straight man. And it's you nodding so okay, this is so as you experience being part of the community, let's just start from there, man. Yeah.
Justine Mastin: When I first got interested in pop culture stories, this was before the internet was the way the internet is right. I'm, I'm in my 40s And so when I was coming up, like I guess there was internet but I was not savvy enough to be If anywhere near that, we didn't have a computer in our home until Anyway, point being, I had no idea that other people liked the stuff I liked, or that they felt about it the way I felt about it. Because it's not just that I loved Twin Peaks, its that Twin Peaks really meant something to me.
Justine Mastin: Like, like deeply profoundly meant something to me. And the fact that Agent Dale Cooper said that he didn't know where we were going, but he was sure it would be a place both wonderful and strange. And as a strange young person who didn't understand my strangeness yet, and that strangeness was always presented as bad. Having this person that I felt deeply connected to say, both wonderful and strange, was was so like, profoundly meaningful for me.
Justine Mastin: But I didn't know how to tell anybody. Luckily, I mean, my parents were both story lovers.
Justine Mastin: They were both writers and editors. And, you know, story was very welcome. In our home, there were always stories, and it was totally valid to engage with them. And also, there wasn't exactly a community that I could go to and be like, so everybody loves Dale Cooper, right. And we all like, we're all giving ourselves a gift every day. And so my exposure was I was in theater when I was young. And so I found some folks in a theater community who were also embedded in stories, but again, just didn't know how to have those conversations about the deepness and the richness.
Justine Mastin: And it really wasn't until I maybe 2010, I had just trained to be a yoga teacher. And I went to my first pop culture convention, that same year, and the timing was wild, but it just happened to be what it happened to be. And I looked around and thought I haven't felt quite at home in the yoga community. And I think it's because this community is what I want. Could I merge wellness and these stories that are profoundly meaningful to me? And the answer was, you can if you want to, and you put a lot of time. And so I started creating spaces. So that's a very long winding story. And then, you know, I've made my way into many pop culture spaces now, where I've had a variety of experiences.
Justine Mastin: You know, there are spaces that are very welcoming. There are spaces that are meh. And historically, fandom spaces have not been welcoming to folks who are outside of, you know, cis het white dudes. And there was sort of a movement during Star Trek. Yep. The original series, right. When women started writing fanfiction
Alex Iantaffi: Absolutely. And it's likeI have so many feelings.
Justine Mastin: okay, yeah, jump in. Come in. Otherwise, I will just monologue. (laughs)
Alex Iantaffi: (laughs) That's wonderful. That's great. I was like, I was sitting back I was like, Go jJustine, you can have I think the wellness is embedded in whatever direction we go.
Alex Iantaffi: a whole hour, keep talking.
Alex Iantaffi: (both laugh) I'm here with you.
Alex Iantaffi: I'm going on this journey of like, Yeah, Justine, finding takes and that finding community. I'm here for the monologue. But I will ask questions, because my brain is pinging in 10 different directions, which is like, you know, there is this piece where even kind of this this feeling, right? I want to share this with other people, right. One of the things that I realized that was a gift for me growing up was that there wasn't so much this kind of geeky label if you were into like, manga or comic books, like usually in the 70s and 80s.
Alex Iantaffi: It seemed to be pretty common or maybe it was just like that was so oblivious that it made me different. Other no could go either way. But you know, it's like you could find those things at the newsstand and everybody else watch the same kind of shows and really, like, you know, anime was just so big in Italy in the 70s and 80s. And so when I moved to kind of the UK at first and then the US back in 22,008, just realizing that there were like all these communities that were like physical communities right?
Alex Iantaffi: already connected online, live the days of Live Journal, like that. I don't know where we could talk about like, did you watch this episode? Did it touch your heart? Right? So there's kind of this piece about cultural context, right? Where we label as like other or a specific interest or a niche.
Alex Iantaffi: And then there is this piece of like, Who is this content for?
Alex Iantaffi: Who is the creative that consumes it right? But then there is this other piece about wellness and the healing we find through stories, right? So there are like three pieces, like each one of them could be a whole episode, quite frankly. So I leave it to you to pick up like which piece you want to talk about. But really, we could go in any direction. I mean, maybe I guess we should go the wellness direction, because we're both therapists, or we could go another direction too.
Alex Iantaffi: Right? Because stories are so inherently healing. So wherever we go, healing will follow.
Alex Iantaffi: Oh my god, I love that. I feel like that should be on a t shirt wherever we go, healing will follow. The Final Frontier.
Alex Iantaffi: (both laugh)
Justine Mastin: That's right.
Justine Mastin: Boldly going into therapy. (both laugh)
Alex Iantaffi: Well, I think that's the thing. I think, you know, you said I love that you talked about the wonderful and strange piece right? And Twin Peaks is not my fandom, but I've been in fandom spaces enough that I feel like I've absorbed some of the shorts wisdom but you know, affinity, but this idea that kind of I think a lot of us will feel maybe different or other often find ourselves in science fiction in fantasy, you know, I don't think it's an accident. I've talked about even with like, trans authors who've been on the show, right? The how many trans and queer folks are really into science fiction and fantasy, you know, shape shifting, of course, you know, or you know, even Octavia Butler kinda Lilith's Brood, you know, the beautiful and strange gender expansive interspecies love, you know, and creation, and all of it all the complex themes of that trilogy. Right. It's like, I think there is something that draws us when we feel like we don't fit into the dominant culture to those stories that are maybe outside of the current paradigm. Is that been your experience as well? And?
Justine Mastin: Yeah, absolutely. I, I was on Minnesota Public Radio just a few weeks ago, and talking about parasocial relationships.
Alex Iantaffi: Yes.
Justine Mastin: And for any of your listeners or watchers who aren't familiar with that concept. parasocial relationships are the one sided relationships that we have with fandom characters. So that could be fictional characters that could be celebrities whom we've never met. It could be historical characters. And I call them fandom attachments, because it's all about attachment. And we are attachment seeking creatures by nature. And if we aren't finding the community that we're looking for, if we aren't seeing ourselves represented in other stories, we're going to gravitate towards that which feels is calling to us that we can attach to. And of course, we want to attach to, you know, something that that feels aligned. And for folks who are outside the mainstream. Often, that is fantasy and sci fi, because those folks are thinking outside the cultural paradigm.
Justine Mastin: And they're sometimes not doing a great job. I mean, I love the television series Supernatural.
Justine Mastin: I'm a, I'm a big Supernatural fan. And they haven't done great with thinking outside the box.
Justine Mastin: But their fans are great at thinking outside.
Alex Iantaffi: Which I think is where the fan fiction comes in.
Alex Iantaffi: Right? Sometimes this fiction that love even more than the original stories and a lot of ways.
Justine Mastin: Yes, well, and you know, I think of a character like Dean Winchester, I Jensen Ackles, has said over and over again, that he plays Dean as a heterosexual dude. That is not what I observe. When I watch the show and see his behavior and eye contact and body movement.
Justine Mastin: And, you know, I'm like, as a bi I am seeing myself reflected in you sir and it's, it's fine if that's not how you plan to play it, but that's how I'm receiving it. And I'm connecting to you because I am receiving that. And so my headcanon my personal fanfiction is Dean, you are bisexual and that means that I feel like I can connect to you better.
Alex Iantaffi: And that's the beauty I think in the wellness and the healing of stories right? Who do we connect to and why you know, and we might even have an act to characters that are so different from us, right?
Alex Iantaffi: Aliens or even Non Humans, or shapeshifters. Right. But how do we find that kind of heart connection that helps us understand ourselves? Sometimes it's also that comfort thing.
Alex Iantaffi: Recently, I've been rewatching Jessica Jones, and I'm like, why am I watching this show? There's so much trauma, intergenerational, like, you know, family dynamics. And I'll say, you know, what am I doing?
Alex Iantaffi: But then I was watching season two, and I'm like, oh, there it is. There is this piece where she's just reflecting right? And she talks about, I'm not like, whew, you know, we Kilgrave and I'm like, you her mom. I don't think it's been out for a while.
Alex Iantaffi: You can't spoiler.
Justine Mastin: I don't think you can spoiler. Anyone. There were also comics.
Alex Iantaffi: Yeah, there were also comics for a long time before Marvel picked them up.
Alex Iantaffi: Yeah, boy, that was like, so I don't think it's a spoiler. But you know, I'm always like, so careful. But there is this piece where she's like, No, I can't control myself, right. So I'm more powerful than right kind of taking your power back taking your agency. And I think that sometimes, you know, growing up, like when you feel like you don't have agency either because maybe you are kind of, you know, you present or brought up feminine in the world, or you feel like you then have power in some other way or experienced trauma, right? Those stories help us make sense, right, in a way to represent the side of me that wishes I could just be an asshole and let all my rage out.
Alex Iantaffi: The way she does right, kind of.
Alex Iantaffi: She has a very different management strategy. She's not a people pleaser, I am. There's something satisfying, I think, to see the side, you know, which is kind of in me but doesn't get expressed because the people pleaser aside always wins, right? But to see this character almost embody this anger, rage, isolation, difficulties with intimacy that any of us who experienced trauma, understand what that feels like. Does that make sense? So this intersection is so beautiful. Absolutely.
Justine Mastin: And what was coming up for me as you were talking, I was thinking about Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which came out my final year of high school. And I remember just thinking, Where was this? Yes, where was this, I needed this.
Justine Mastin: And I, I became a Buffy devotee, you know, start to finish. And we could have a whole conversation about creators and how they disappoint us. And that is a story for another time.
Justine Mastin: There's a lot to be said about creators and how they disappoint us. But the character of Buffy, was so meaningful to me in a similar way to what you're saying with Jessica Jones. It's like, okay, so you're telling me that a girl can be powerful, and stylish, and athletic, and soft, and complicated and funny, and all these things? Whoa, because when I was coming up as a teenager, in the 90s, everything was just this, like, polarization you are either this or that. You can't be two things. Pick a lane, you're going to be a theater nerd, you're not going to be athletic, and like you can do dance, that's fine. But that's not You're not athletic. Let's just be clear about that. You're gonna be soft, you're choosing a soft lane. And I'm like, but I'm actually like, kind of soft Butch, although I don't have that language yet. You know, but I have a chain wallet. Because?
Justine Mastin: Because I know that feels right, somehow. But it's not okay for me to be those many things. And here was Buffy, coming in saying no, you can be all those things, and have community.
Alex Iantaffi: And have community. That's right, because there was this piece about community, even surrogate parental figures with Giles. I'm a Buffy fan too and yes, all our favorites are problematic. We can we could talk about that like for the whole episode. You know, we almost called our oldest child Joss or Anyanka.
Alex Iantaffi: So, you know, before we knew where all our favorites are problematic, this was a time ago, you know, two decades ago, and a little bit more actually now. From when I was kind of gestating but yeah, that's like I think there is something in that. And they're all articles.
Alex Iantaffi: So at the end, we like sharing the power right? About being exceptional, or individually exceptional, right? That actually you cannot do this in isolation and that's what I love about Buffy as well. And that's like finding different pieces and different fandoms right, like in Buffy it's like it's an ensemble piece I think about Some of those beautiful shots were the move as a group, right?
Alex Iantaffi: Yeah. Especially like in the musical episode,
Justine Mastin: Oh, Once More With Feeling has amazing shots of the whole . Yeah.
Alex Iantaffi: Yeah. Right.
Alex Iantaffi: Like, it's very much an ensemble piece where I think, you know, Jessica Jones way yeah, she has allies, but she's pushing people away, right, it's different parts of ourselves and in a way are different people that can relate to different parts. And I love that what you said about like, you know, you can be complex, you can be many things in a world that often wants to wants us to be very this or that you're either kind of smart, but you can't be pretty if you're a girl, you know, you can be soft if you're a girl, but you can be hard, right? You can be really good at math, but then that means you're not supposed to care about what you look like or what you know, like. And even as a parent, I see that it's breaks my heart that my kid who is like in her early 20s is still dealing with some of that.
Alex Iantaffi: misogyny, that's just like, kind of not going away. Right. And it's so it's so interesting that we can make sense of ourselves through those stories, while then also having to deal with the kind of relating within fandom with folks who are also perpetuating some of the stories. Does that make sense?
Alex Iantaffi: Yes. Do your clients ever talk about that? I mean, obviously, not disclosing any personal information, but like, this theme of like, oh, this is my community, but also this community is sometimes as misogynistic or transphobic, or racist, and or all of the above, you know, or queer phobic, and it hurts me in this ways. This is where I should feel like I belong. And yeah, I also, like, sometimes I don't belong. Does that make sense? Yeah,
Justine Mastin: well, and I can speak to actually having those conversations in fandom spaces.
Justine Mastin: Because for the past 10 years or so I've been going to pop culture conventions and talking about wellness, whether it's, you know, moving our bodies or self care or mental health. And I'll talk about the power of community. And, you know, someone inevitably will raise their hand and say, Well, what if your community is toxic?
Alex Iantaffi: Surprise.
Justine Mastin: Right. And so, I, obviously, the answer is, it depends. But if we're talking about, you know, fandom spaces, like the internet, sure, there are going to be some forums that are going to be different than other ones. And, to my mind, it's, in the same way that we acknowledge that we love Aunt Doris as a human, and we reject her beliefs about certain groups of people. We can accept that these other people love Supernatural. And let go of of their belief system that doesn't match with ours. And that's okay. Because we're all allowed to have that fanfiction. And if they're trying to put that on us and say we're bad, or that we're wrong, thank you so much. Next.
Alex Iantaffi: Absolutely. And find your people who are gonna share that, right because it's like, and it's so interesting, because even not just with fanfiction, but also with reimagining our existing material. I'm thinking about Bridgerton In some ways as its own fandom, right? I love almost everything can be a fandom at this point, you know, and there's been so much outrage about changing the gender of some of the characters. It's more queer in the TV series, and it was in the books, even though the book's author was like, this was cool with me. Some people were having feelings and I try not to engage. Sometimes like I can't resist when it's late at night, and I can't sleep, I'm like, let me put this little comment.
Justine Mastin: Let's get into a fight (laughs)
Alex Iantaffi: Let's get into an internet fight for five minutes.
Alex Iantaffi: And I try it was like, I'm like, I'm trying to educate the see if there's an opening, right. And sometimes there is an opening actually, I was trying to approach with like, I'm curious, sort of, like, Hey, did you have this piece of information, you know, somebody was like, and also it's fascinating that it was about queerness, but they managed to make it about gender because of the change in gender from the book to the TV series.
Justine Mastin: Sure, yeah.
Alex Iantaffi: It beCame this whole transphobic like slew of comments about, you know, there's only two genders Why do they have to change the gender of the character? And I was like, well, first of all, like, that's not even like there's a trans person in Bridgerton right now. So you know,
Justine Mastin: not that we are aware of!
Alex Iantaffi: Not that we know as being revealed. I haven't read the books, so I'm only watching the TV series, right. I was Like, you know that actually because they were like nature, right? You know, this male and female in nature, I was like, Oh, actually nature is much more expansive. Resources, it's happy to share some resources. Right.
Alex Iantaffi: And for me, sometimes pushing back is also like what, you know, 98% probability is that this person is not going to be open to what I'm saying. But this piece about, like other people in the comments also going, Oh, my god, somebody else gets it, somebody else is pushing back, maybe I don't have the capacity to do that, right?
Alex Iantaffi: Because that matters, you know, when you do a panel, and there is that person who stands up and go, but what about, you know, like, there's probably another, like 50 people standing up, and I was sitting there thinking this thing. And so how would you feel like the people find kind of spaces within spaces to take care of themselves? So those spaces where maybe the larger fandom? Lets you know, it's complicated? And like you said, it's like you just leave on tourists alone? Or, or maybe you have one mild argument over a cup of tea, and then kind of let it go, when you feel like it, but then how do you find the space, the smaller space within the larger space, where you can feel supported and connected and heard? Yeah,
Justine Mastin: So my invitation to folks, whether it's online or in person, is go into spaces, where folks are similar to you, which is like, Well, how do I find them? If you're going to a convention, if you are a queer person, look for the header that says, This is a panel about queer characters or by you know, queer creators, or, you know, the, the industry has gotten...
Justine Mastin: Well, not the industry, the conversations at pop culture events, and some other satellite locations have been so much more welcoming, welcoming of disability rights, and
Alex Iantaffi: Absolutely. And I think that then it's like, you transgender rights, and bringing in creators with those identities to talk about their own work and their own experience. And so keep your eyes out for that. And then go talk to the presenters, they really do want to talk to you, say hi to the person sitting next to you, because clearly, you have at least something in common, which is, you were interested enough in this panel to make time for it. And that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone in the room has the same identities. But there are people in the room with the same values. Yes, for the most part, there is typically at least a couple of folks that are just going to show up to hate watch, and maybe hate comment. Because that's the world that we live in. But the majority of people are there earnestly wanting to make connections wanting to learn more, also wanting to be in community. And if you turn to your neighbor and say, Hey, I'm Justine, nice to meet ya, they will also introduce themselves.
Alex Iantaffi: know, as well as this parasocial relationships, and you're creating some genuine community connection. Yes, if you go to the same events over and over, right, and that can be really scary. In relationships we have with characters, right. Whereas in connecting with other with our fellow humans, even if we come on, there's always like the danger of like rejection or being hurt or feeling. And I think that's often what people struggle with. I wonder if you've seen any example of spaces where there is an intentionality around enabling people to connect, right, because it can be hard for people to connect. And I think, I don't know, maybe it's just me or people I know. But for a lot of us, we're like, you're spicy or different in other ways and fandom spaces. You know, it can be a little intimidating. And so maybe even Yoga Quest, which is one of the spaces you've created, and curated and lead.
Alex Iantaffi: And I can definitely think of examples, but what do you see those spaces do? Or like I said, maybe you can want to talk about your own experience of creating that kind of space?
Justine Mastin: Yeah, I mean, I created Yoga Quest exactly for the reasons that you're saying is that I went to that convention and looked around and thought, how come we aren't talking about how healing all of this is? And it's inherently healing, but we could also bring in some additional self care stuff like we're, we're allowed to move our body Yes, and no matter our size or ability, and at the time, that was a pretty radical thing to be seeing in yoga spaces.
Alex Iantaffi: Yes, that's true.
Justine Mastin: And yeah, I've always been a little bit of a rabble rouser. So I was like, well, just, I don't see this space anywhere. I'll just make it. Yeah, and just sort of reached out to here in the Twin Cities, there's a group called the Geek Partnership Society.
Justine Mastin: And I discovered that they had a fitness branch, or what was it called Geek Physique? was what it was called. That's amazing.
Justine Mastin: It may still exist. But I reached out to their organizer.
Justine Mastin: So it's something already existed, right? And I reached out and said, hey, you know, I'm yoga teacher, I'm a nerd. I have this idea. It might flop. But like, Could I come over to your warehouse and try it? And they wanted to meet me? to vet me, which, of course, totally fair.
Justine Mastin: I want to make sure I wasn't some, you know, hardcore cheerleader girl who was going to be on everybody for something. Yeah, exactly. Like I was coming in to bully everybody. And I mean, I'm, I'm pretty, like, I'm a pretty traditional Yogi looker, or very much was at the time, you know, the petite blonde woman. But after talking for a bit, it's like, okay, you're, you're cool.
Alex Iantaffi: You might be pithy than blonde, but you're one of us. Exactly. It was like, All right, just like Buffy.
Justine Mastin: Exactly you can, you can be many things at once.
Justine Mastin: But I understood it. And I was just very intentional that I, I wanted this to be as welcoming as possible. And so I was really explicit. When people came in, to give permission, like, for doing a pose, you don't like, I'll give some options. If you don't like any of those, you have to do anything I'm saying.
Justine Mastin: Because guess what, Friends, you are autonomous human beings who get to decide what to do with your minds and bodies.
Alex Iantaffi: What? (laughs)
Justine Mastin: And truly, it was mind blowing for people. And I started getting more and more traction, because people were like, Alright, so this, this little lady isn't going to be mean to me, then she's going to tell me that I deserve and I'm worth the effort to take care of myself. Wow. And I'm not the only person who was doing this.
Justine Mastin: It was sort of part of the zeitgeist, I noticed at the time. And there there are some fitness orgs that are still going my, my friend at Geek Girl Strong. Who does an online business mostly. But I think she's in Philly. She was in New York. But I started going to conventions and teaching yoga and people like wow, I just, you know, I, I've never been given permission like this before. And so my invitation to folks, and I know, it's scary. I do. I know it's scary. If you don't see the thing that you need, or want, you're allowed to make it. And that's how we got all of the awesome stories that we love so much, is that people didn't see the story they needed. And so they made it.
Alex Iantaffi: Absolutely, and so much of fanfiction is that right? Or some people writing them ourselves in the stories?
Alex Iantaffi: Right? Okay, I don't see the queerness. So there is subtext about the queerness. So make that subtext text right? Or I'm gonna imagine doing something different with this Canon, that makes me feel more included.
Alex Iantaffi: Absolutely. And then sometimes as, as we do that, and become more involved in community, we might also find, oh, hang on a minute. There are all these other stories that are maybe not as mainstream, but actually where I can see myself I can see my racialized identity or my gender or my queerness or my disability, right. And it's beautiful, kind of to see that.
Alex Iantaffi: There's now more opportunities for people to also just get the stories out in the world because, yes, well,
Justine Mastin: and as you're talking about this, I'm thinking of, you know, when when you asked like, how do you also how do you find your people? There are stories that exist, that are doing good work, like Our Flag Means Death?
Alex Iantaffi: Oh, my God. I love that show so much. I just watched it again for the third time. Let's talk about that.
Justine Mastin: Right And for folks who aren't familiar, it's it's also lovingly known as the gay pirate show. Taika Waititi and Rhys Darby as Blackbeard and Stede Bonnet, the gentleman pirate on the high seas. And they are canonically a couple.
Alex Iantaffi: And it's not just that they're canonically a couple, they're also like, kind of, like, messed up by their family of origin, you know, so there's some trauma. I think a lot of our flag means daffodils about what this family means.
Alex Iantaffi: And what does it mean? Family, it's very much about queer family. And, and there are a lot of lots of prayer stories where people are not necessarily looking the way we expect them to look. So for me as I struggle with aging, quite frankly, to see like a same gender story of two older man was like very, it's very healing. Especially like, there's a lot of kind of ageism, in terms of kind of youth worship in gay male community in my experience, right for a lot of jokes about but that by the time you turn 30, you might as well be dead, you know, like, I mean, especially somebody who grew up like during the AIDS crisis, I was like, Yeah, right. One of our people did that. They did.
Alex Iantaffi: You know, like, I went to them carrying exhibit of the walker.
Alex Iantaffi: And I was just like crying thinking about how much more you could have done right, if you live longer, you know, he died like in his 30s. So many amazing people died in their 30s. You know, people would have been my elders now. Right, right. Like we lost so many algos. And so to see a story, like our flag mean stuff with tool, man, it's not just the queerness. It's also like, they're older, the characters are complicated, they're messy. They're dealing with PTSD, and trauma, and finding themselves in a world that's like, also systemically complex in terms of class and gender. And yeah, it's such a beautiful story, right?
Justine Mastin: Yeah. What what did you think of Jim?
Alex Iantaffi: I love Jim. And I love how Jim is handled, that's another piece right? There is this like non binary actor playing this character, when there is like the gender reveal, so to speak, that this person who we perceive as a man at the beginning, is actually maybe not a man, where there is this piece where people are confused, and they just go, it's just Jim and everybody is just like, oh, okay, you know, or when they meet the person or kind of brought them up basically, after their family dies. They're like, this It's just Jim now, and the person is just like, Yeah, you know, the non just goes into Jim, and they just seamlessly, right? It's even not a thing.
Alex Iantaffi: And I loved it. I loved it, because it wasn't, the emphasis is not on that piece of the story. They're just the character. Same as in the latest season of Doctor Who there's been a lot of combo
Justine Mastin: I'm not, I'm not caught up. But what I do know all of the buzz, yes.
Alex Iantaffi: yeah, there's just some good I will not do any spoilers because like people just saying that I used to have a favorite doctor and I have a new favorite doctor. Ncuti is amazing as a new doctor, and but there are kind of just beautiful day, that moment and Disability Justice stuff. It's very subtle.
Alex Iantaffi: It's just there, you know, to be explained without having to be the focus of the story. And when that happens, what about you?
Alex Iantaffi: Well, what did you like about Our Flag Means Death? What was the thing that spoke to you the most?
Justine Mastin: Yeah, I mean, there were so there were so many things. The this focus on found family was just just spoke to my heart so much, and I've been on a few panels about Our Flag Means Death. And you know why it's so revolutionary. And you know, why it has such a strong fan base, many of whom are queer folks, disabled folks of various marginalized identities, like, Well, I think to the scene where they're making flags. Yes. And they're going to vote on which one is the best flag and then they will fly the best flag and they fly everybody's flag. And in that moment, I was 100% bought in because I was like, they get it. We're all important. We all deserve to have our flag flown.
Alex Iantaffi: That is so beautiful. And that's maybe a good segue, because I'm aware of time I feel like I could talk to you for like the whole day and maybe we'll just have another episode. But for now, maybe that's a good segue to talk about The Grieving Therapist, because when I first saw that you had another book coming out, came out, you know, when it was like preorder. It was like, what that's fascinating that you went from like fanfiction, and using fanfiction, therapeutically, to you know, something like, The Grieving Therapist, which is really about, you know, caring for yourself as a therapist and a healer during this time of like, you know, climate crisis, and genocide, you know, the increase of global fascism, I mean, you know, take your book,
Justine Mastin: just everything, everything crisis
Alex Iantaffi: was talking to my therapist, and I was like, you know, I don't know if I'm, like, depressed or if this is a good reaction to what's happening in the world, or if it's perimenopause, or even know anymore, or maybe a side effect of this medication? I honestly don't know, I'm kind of sitting with it with curiosity, right?
Alex Iantaffi: There's a lot to be depressed about. But not yet. Do you know, like, I feel like it's a reasonable response to the world. But I was curious, like, how did we go from like, fan fiction to The Grieving Therapist in a, you know, I made sense of it once I read the book. But I'm curious about from your point of view, if it felt like a change in trajectory or not so much, or if it felt just like a continuation of your story, in some way?
Justine Mastin: Yeah, well, so something that I talk to my students about a lot is the importance of understanding historical context. And to understand how I went from starships that are PIs to the grieving therapist requires historical context there.
Justine Mastin: Larissa and I had been pitching starship therapies for a long time, we were finally able to find the most wonderful editor.
Justine Mastin: And that picked us up and brought us into North Atlantic books. And we, we were so excited. Three months later, the pandemic happened. We wrote the entirety of Starship Therapize during the pandemic. So this mostly quite light hearted, you know, foray into play and story was written during some of the most depressing times in our lives. Yeah. And we didn't get to do any of the things that we thought we were gonna get to do.
Justine Mastin: Like when we sold Starship Therapize. The intention was, we're going to be at Comic Con, we're going to be at smaller pop culture conventions, we're going to do all this stuff to release the book and be in all these public spaces and all these convention fandom spaces. The world was shut down for years.
Justine Mastin: And so The Grieving Therapist came out of the literal grief we experienced, from having to let go of our dream of what it was going to be, to, to be authors to release a book, to be therapists, to you know, to be humans in this world. There is just there was so much grieving.
Justine Mastin: It was so awful. And when our when our wonderful editor, Shana came to us and said, Hey, what do you want to write next?
Justine Mastin: Larisa I sat down, we wrote out a bunch of ideas. And I was like, I think it'd be really important for us to write about the grief we experienced. Which is very funny. If you know me and Larisa, because historically, I am a Kirk. I am.
Justine Mastin: I am the boisterous bravado, let's just get in the ship and fly. And she's very Spock, she wants to sit and consider and but she also tends to be the holder of emotions for us. And so me saying let's talk about grief. She's like, what is happening? Yeah, what is happening? But from her Spock mind, she was playing it out and going, this is going to be really painful. And hard. And I don't want to do that. And my Kirkness is like, we already felt the pain, Larisa. So we're just writing about it. Yeah, see, we're not It's not like we're gonna feel it again.
Alex Iantaffi: I mean, then you might, but that's part of the process. Right? Yeah. I
Justine Mastin: The funny thing is oh, boy, did we feel it?
Justine Mastin: Yeah. Yeah. But Shana was so excited about this book was like, Yeah, let's do it. And we spent nine months reliving grief and stepping into all of these grieving spaces. And I got COVID which turned into long COVID And it had major psychological impact on me as well as you know, bodily impact and I may It's a major self discoveries during that time. So, even though it seems like the, how is The Grieving Therapist, the spiritual sequel to Starship Therapize, it was what came next.
Alex Iantaffi: Absolutely. Yeah.
Alex Iantaffi: Which to me makes complete sense in terms of timing. I was like, Oh, yes, this is so you know, it's this is so essential in terms of where we are, and nothing Well, comes to mind, as you were talking was also how we find ourselves through writing stories, as well as listening and consuming stories, right, which is hard to, you know, just like fanfiction, but we also when we write nonfiction, we're also making sense of our own stories. And I love how you describe that beautiful arc of actually, like, there was all this excitement, and then life had other plans, which actually, often is at the heart of many of the stories we love, right? We are on one path and life has other plan and find us on this like, very different quest.
Alex Iantaffi: Sometimes a side quest becomes the main quest.
Justine Mastin: Yeah. And we did get to still write some fanfic.
Justine Mastin: We got to fanfic, some of our favorite theorists are from a variety of realms into animal spirits that were wandering through this sort of fantastical land that we created. And if you haven't read the book, friends at home, I promise it all connects and makes sense. (both laugh)
Alex Iantaffi: Yes. That's all makes sense. If you read the book capsule, well, and, and in a way, I also do see the spirit of what you're doing with yoga quest in this book, right? It's like this connection of like, how can stories help us make sense, right? When we bring stories into movement for yoga, right? When we bring our stories into fandom, when we bring story and narrative into our emotion, our grief, right? We need to make sense. We need stories and we need analytics, right?
Alex Iantaffi: Whether it's animal allies, or other characters or fantastic allies of some kind, right? We need to feel that we're not alone, right? Kind of almost goes back to the beginning of this interview when you were like, oh, Twin Peaks, and now with with share with where my people are gonna get as excited as I am about this, right? Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Wow. I feel like I could go on and on talking about all of this with you and dear listeners, if you're listening, and you're like, I love all of this. And books are not my thing. Do not fear because just see an author has got two podcasts in the spirit of doing all the things.
Justine Mastin: So I, we completed the Starship Therapize podcast, it has it has concluded and we were very mindful about the conclusion. So we even we spend several episodes talking about how we're about to say goodbye.
Alex Iantaffi: Proper therapists that's been there. I like many, like over 80 episodes. Oh, yeah, you can. You can spend some time and spend some time with it feel like podcasts live forever, even when they're done. You know what I mean? That's right. Yeah.
Justine Mastin: And then dark side of the mat is in investigative journalism pilot podcast about the creeps, cults and crimes that show up in the wellness and yoga industry. We put out episodes, very sporadically, because me and my co host cat both, both have too many jobs. But there, there are a few apps on there. And they're delightful. And also, if you liked the sound of my voice today, I do the audiobooks. So if you're more of a listener that are then a sit down reader.
Justine Mastin: You can also you can hear this voice say comforting things to you for 10 hours, which
Alex Iantaffi: be great.
Alex Iantaffi: Exactly. And I think even with dark side of the mouths, there's like over 20 episodes out. So that's still like if people haven't gotten into into it.
Alex Iantaffi: Like that sounds really interesting. There's plenty of others out and I get it I've become much more regular. But definitely, I've had my moments at one point. During the pandemic. I was like, I have not released an episode for a year.
Alex Iantaffi: Oh, how did that happen?
Justine Mastin: Oops. Oh, well,
Alex Iantaffi: what is more? My Calendar. I'm trying to release one every two weeks and I've been very good to season so we'll see how it goes. The sword Yes, there are many ways of seeing your wisdom, whether it's books, audiobooks, electronic versions of your books, which also exists. The two existed podcasts and probably though, will there be agreement therapist podcasts? I think it would be beautiful. I don't know. But
Justine Mastin: we're Still trying to figure out what the grieving therapist will be I very much would love to have a retreat type environment where we literally sit around the campfire. And we literally draw maps. But that's right now I need to focus on I'm starting several new chapters of my life.
Justine Mastin: So stay tuned. Yes,
Alex Iantaffi: and I know that you're in transition in a number of ways. But if people are local in Minnesota, you have a wonderful opportunity coming up, I think soon after. This episode is released for folks to endow with you in person you want to literally write well, I don't know if there's gonna be a campfire because it's pretty hot at the moment up here. But metaphorical campfire,
Justine Mastin: there will be a literal campfire. So thank you for for that setup, your if if you are local to the Twin Cities or want to travel to the Twin Cities on August 16. Me and my colleague Mari appel Doran are putting on an event called camp counselor, which is a full day workshop of nurturing community.
Justine Mastin: So while there will be trainings, and opportunities for CEUs really the point is you get to radically nurture yourself and community and the day is all about choice, want to go to a session, cool, go to the session, want to go walk the labyrinth, cool, go walk the labyrinth, want to be in community, with your fellows and sit on a bench, great, take a nap, swim in the pool, there's so many options, and we'll be we'll be taking the lens of internal family systems, and enhancing our not just self of the therapist, but our self energy of the therapist. So that we can return to our work feeling actually replenished, rather than the way we typically feel at the end of day of training. And I would love to see folks there and I will be moving out of the Twin Cities area very shortly afterwards. So I would love to meet people in person. Oh, come on down to Camp Counselor. There are also really cute T shirts.
Alex Iantaffi: If that sounds so good. I'm hoping to make it. And if you're listening to this episode, after that has happened, do not fear because there are going to be all this opportunities for you to engage with Justine's material. And I'm sure there will be all kind of panels, you know, conventions and so on. And I'll put all of those kind of in the episode description as well. But is there a place where if people are looking for you, you know, where your books or podcasts are to hire you like, where should they go?
Justine Mastin: Yep. If folks want to follow me on social media, I'm always delighted. I'm on Instagram, and Tiktok at Mind Body Fandom, because I take a holistic approach to healing mind, body and fandom. And then you can find more info about everything that I do. And my website, Justinemastin.com.
Alex Iantaffi: Beautiful thank you Justine, I feel like I could keep having this conversation.
Alex Iantaffi: But I'm gonna be respectful of your time. So I will ask you the question that I always ask all my guess is that anything that we have not talked about? That you really was, were hoping to kind of patch out or you were hoping to talk about?
Justine Mastin: Now, this was such a delightful conversation.
Justine Mastin: I feel like we we traveled all through middle earth today.
Justine Mastin: We you know, we visited the elves we visited the dwarves we saw the eagles. I feel very complete. So thank you so much for having me.
Alex Iantaffi: That's beautiful.
Alex Iantaffi: I also feel like we went on a journey together. And it was so fun. I was like, Oh, I know. I was like, oh, maybe we should just have more conversations around fandoms and that gender like specific fandoms and gender, that would be so fun.
Alex Iantaffi: But thank you for your time to today. I really appreciate you and I really appreciate your work just the Thank you. So good to see you. And to you, dear gender stories, listeners or watchers, for those of us that you're watching on YouTube. Take care of yourself and find ways to replenish your soul. And I'm really curious about what stories fire you up. So feel free to contact me and let me know. And then maybe I can make sure that we talk about those stories in future episodes. And until next time, take care