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Hello and welcome to another episode of Gender Stories.

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I know that I'm always like excited, elated, thrilled, and it's true because I get to talk to the coolest people, just because I have a podcast.

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There you go.

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So, if white dudes can do it, so can we.

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So today I am super excited to be talking to Dean Spade because I have known of Dean's work for A long time I have read Dean's work and I so appreciate everything he brings to the movement.

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um But I'm going to read his bios so that if you haven't come across Dean's work, then you can learn about it.

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Dean Spade has been working in movements for queer and trans liberation, anti-militarism and police.

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Let me start that again.

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Thank you for adding in that out route.

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uh Dean Spade has been working in movements for queer and trans liberation, anti-militarism, and police and prison abolition for the past 25 years.

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He's the author of Normal Life, Administrative Violence, Critical Trans Politics, and The Limits of Law, and Mutual Aid, Building Solidarity During This Crisis.

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And the next, the director of the documentary Pinkwashing Exposed, Seattle Fights Back, and his new book is Love in a Fucked Up World, which is so great, and we're going to talk about this.

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And the full title is, Love in a Fucked Up World, How to Build Relationships, Up and Raise Hell Together.

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And he's the host of a new podcast with the same name.

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And all the links are going to be in the episode description, whether you're watching on YouTube or you're listening wherever you listen to podcasts.

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So thank you, Dean, and thank you for making time for Gender Stories.

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Thank you for inviting me.

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I'm so excited to get to talk to you.

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Me too.

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So, um, I knew I was like, listeners, I got a ground talking to Dean because when you admire somebody's work, it's such a privilege to get to talk to them and it's such a privilege to get to talk to you, So you've written this amazing book, which I really love, love in the fucked up world about relationship, which came out this year.

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And I also, Meg- John Barker have a book about relationships that came out this year.

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So, and I'm showing them for folks who are on YouTube and if you're listening, I'm showing the books.

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uh And I don't think it's an accident that there are all these books about relationships and the challenges to think about relationships outside of just the Cicero mononormative paradigm, just outside of just romantic relationships, but really they're inviting us to think, I think, about relationality and what we need to show up.

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with each other, whether it's in community, whether it's friendships, uh whether it is uh loving romantic sexual relationships.

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And so I'm really curious about why you chose to write a book about relationships and kind of what brought you to write this fantastic book.

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really want to answer this question, but first I'm dying to ask you, like, when did you start writing the book that you published this year?

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What is that arc for you?

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Yeah, that's a great question.

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Well, Meg-John and I started thinking about this book back in 2018, 19, we had written How to Understand Your Gender and our editor at the time, Andrew at Jessica Kingsley was like, oh, would you like to write other books in the How to series?

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And I was like, yes, we can do sexuality and relationships.

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So we've been like talking about this book.

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Oh yeah, definitely since 2018, because we were already talking about it.

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when Meg-John and I got together in 2019, because we live on different sides of the ocean.

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And so, yeah, we've been thinking about this book for a few years, and then we really sat down and kind of did the final draft in the summer of 2023, and it just came out in January.

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it's been a few years in the making.

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Okay, yeah, mean, many people have said to me since my book was published in January, this is the right time for this.

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And I was like, that's a total accident because I have been writing this book for 10 years.

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Like, this is the hardest thing I've ever written.

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It took me so long.

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I rewrote it so many times.

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I put it down so many times.

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Like, I put it down and wrote the book Mutual Aid.

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Like, I mean, just, it's, you know, quite different from my other work.

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I'm sure you noticed as someone who's been in conversation longer.

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um Yeah, so the timing is definitely just accidental.

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When could I get this thing done with all of my own struggles with it?

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But yeah, why haven't I read a book about relationships?

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um I think that my experience, and I'd be curious about this for you too, is I've spent my life in movements for liberation, and I've been very concerned about what are the obstacles to those movements?

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My first book was a lot about like how the fixation on law and legal equality is actually an obstacle to our movements and misunderstands power and, you know, it was kind of directing us towards grassroots work.

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And my second book, Mutual Aid, was about, you know, how we do that work and like why people think that change comes from above, but actually comes from us caring for each other community and like what gets in the way of us doing that and how do we do it?

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And, while doing all of that work all these years, like obviously I've been in these movements that were like such a giant obstacle to our flourishing and to our connecting with each other and like doing the things we long to do is that we're still acting in our relationships according to the scripts of the dominant culture.

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And we're having causing each other a lot of pain and a lot of missed connections and harm and conflict.

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And most of us are out of alignment with our values.

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Like I feel like even people who are coming from like feminist, anti-racist, anti-capitalist values who have a lot of ideas, even those of us who really passionately think about and study how those systems work.

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we have a hard time bringing that kind of critical thinking to like when I'm really upset about something or when I really want something or when I really fear something.

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It kind of goes out the door.

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And then the existing tools that are out there, like a lot of the relationship self-help tools actually are not aligned with our values.

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So when you go to those things, you're like, I'm suffering with anxiety, with relationship problems, with wanting to heal my sexuality, whatever it is.

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uh then that toolbox is a lot of stuff that's uh ableist and racist and like you were saying, heterosexist all these things.

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And so I found myself, I've been someone who's needed a lot of those tools and I've spent my whole life, I've like since middle school, like obsessively reading self-help and like trying things and just doing anything because I wanted to feel better in different ways and have my life be more like what I wanted.

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But when I would wanna share those things with friends or people I was working with, kind of like, I can't really hand you this book because it's actually like got really mean stuff in it for you.

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And like, would try sometimes like I kind of migrate out an idea and be like, this is I would be able to talk about it, but I wouldn't be able to say like, I really trust this source for someone else.

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I just wanted to like Do that a little more, like bring some of the useful ideas to, a language and in through the frameworks of things I believe in and that people in my communities believe in a need and see if there could be, and obviously there's more of this now.

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There are more people.

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bridging that road than ever before.

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Thank God, you know.

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I'm curious about the story.

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I mean, I understand it's related to your prior book, but I'm also just like, what was it like?

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Was there new research about relationships?

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And also you co-wrote, like, what's that process like?

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my God, what great questions.

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I was listening to you, I was like, yes, yes, yes.

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uh Very similar, very similar motivation to be quite honest.

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I mean, obviously I'm also what is called the family therapist in the so-called US and I say what is called a family therapist.

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Cause when I trained, actually I trained as a systemic psychotherapist.

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That's kind of the label in the UK where I trained and the label that's used in Europe for systemic psychotherapy.

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which I think it's indicative that then it translates into a marriage and family therapy in the US and we could talk about that.

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So I've been obsessed with relationship and relational patterns my whole life.

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And now I understand that that's also part of my own neurodivergence as an autistic person with ADHD But also because, you know, I knew there was dissonance between the values of the culture that was being brought up in and the realities of my family.

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And there was also congruence, right?

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It was complicated.

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So I became fascinated with relationships.

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And then Meg-John and I, my writing partner, one of my writing partners now, because I'm writing a different book with somebody else too, I've talked about relationships the whole time we've known each other, which is 21 years last summer.

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We wrote the book exactly 20 years to the month since we met.

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And we write about that in the introduction.

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And so it was a really hard book to write.

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I felt like all the ghosts of our past relationships and current relationships were in the room while we were writing this book, right?

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Our own relational history, which changed, know, Meg-John and I, and we talk about this in the book, started as a romantic relationship, which ended pretty quickly, but we were really committed to staying in community and keep collaborating and doing.

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movement work together.

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And so working through all of that, and so all of that, it's in the book too.

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And so as I was listening to you, I was really reflecting on the parallels.

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I was like, yes, different pathways, of course, but very similar desire of wanting a resource that wasn't just about, here's the formula to have perfect relationships, which I'm.

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So tired of, right?

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And Meg-John of course, had already written a book about relationship because they have the Rewriting the Rules and the down two editions of that too.

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And so our own thinking had evolved.

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I work with relationships all the time and I see the pain that people carry in my own pain.

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I've done a lot of work to heal my own complex PTSD, figuring out how to navigate relationships as a neurodivergent person who didn't even know.

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I was a neurodivergent person and also committed to uh values that didn't translate while in dominant culture, if that makes sense.

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So the motivation was super similar.

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uh Meg-John and I definitely brought our own writing partnership, which is uh pretty unique just because the foundation is our friendship.

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And our friendship is way more important.

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not even friendships feel redacted because really it's an intimate partnership, even though we're not.

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kind of romantic or sexual partners.

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It's an intimate process to write with somebody in a lot of ways.

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And so we really brought 20 plus years of like commitment to each other and commitment to being accountable for our own fuck ups as much as we're able, right?

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And movement work to this book.

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And also different cultural backgrounds and experiences I was born and brought up in Italy.

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They were born and brought up in England.

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I lived in the UK for 15 years before moving to Turtle Island.

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And so they were all, I'm a parent, they're not.

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So we also brought a lot of different life experiences.

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But the motivation is very similar.

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And especially as a therapist, I didn't have any book that could confidently say, look at this book.

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I had to be like, look at this book, but it's so...

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Super cishetero or mononormative.

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Look at this book, but they're focusing on romantic relationship.

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And I know we're talking about like your relationship with your comrades, you know.

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Look, and I was so tired of having to do all the caveats, right?

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Look at this book but its super ableist.

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Look at this book but it doesn't take an intersectional lens, right?

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And so the motivation was incredibly similar.

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And it's so amazing to see this explosion of radical books about relationships like...

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Mel Cassidy has got a book that's coming out about radical relating.

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Tuck Malloy has got a book, Expansive Love, think it is.

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I'm terrible with matching names and titles.

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ah But I feel it's in the water.

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I think a lot of us have been feeling it.

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So I don't know, does that answer your question?

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Great.

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Just because you said that you all basically drafted it in 2023, I'm like, do you not have any problems with procrastination?

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Like, what is your writing problem?

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Like, I feel like, and I had it so much worth with this book because I felt, I think this book brought up a lot of questions like, am I authorized to write this?

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Is it okay for me to write this?

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Books like this are usually written by therapists.

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I'm just like another messed up person.

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you know, I think, you This is so far outside my usual genre, will people think...

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that I'm doing some neoliberal self-help.

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You know, I had so much, I had to do a lot of like, I would like had a whole ritual every time before I sat down to write to like remind myself I was allowed to try writing this.

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But I'm curious, like, A, you're writing with another person who you have this beautiful long relationship with and you're writing it pretty fast.

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Like I would love to hear about it.

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And I know now you're co-writing another book right now.

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So will you tell me more about your own, like what does your writing process look like?

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Oh, I'm always happy to talk about my writing process.

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I love that you're interviewing me instead of me interviewing you, but we can, I was like, I love that it's a conversation on Gender Stories and it goes wherever we want it to go.

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Oh, I have so many problems with procrastination, Dean, are you kidding?

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I'm like, when I figured out my own neurodivergence, it was so funny because I had some mentees who were like, oh, you're not diagnosed with ADHD already?

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You're like the poster child, overcommitted.

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like too many projects, overextended.

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was like, you have a point now that you point out all those things.

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So yes, writing with another person is very helpful for me in terms of not procrastinating.

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Plus, I think that there's the autism, the balance, the procrastination with the, have to do the thing because I said I will do the thing.

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have a very role following uh kind of type of neurodivergence in some ways.

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And I think what helps My process is also that books that I'm writing leave in my head for a very long time before they come on the page, if that makes sense.

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So, you know, I feel like in a way, our Understanding Your Relationships was written in 2023, but it is a 20 years long conversation with Meg-John that we both sat down and then brought to life in this book.

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And then when I write with Meg-John, it is uh very much its own process.

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We go into this like...

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semi-monastic bubble, that's the best way I can describe it, where we cut off the outside world pretty much um and just focus on being with each other and the writing.

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And we really try to hold each other really gently as well.

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they get up early in the morning, I don't because I usually have like bad nights of sleep as a disabled person.

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So they do what they need to do uh in the morning and then I get up and then we have an emotional check-in, then we write.

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then we break, then we write some more.

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We do have the advantage of being fast writers in some ways, especially when we're together, because when we're together, I think we can also reassure each other self-doubt.

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mean, Meg-John has written like, I don't know, over 20 books at this point.

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They're so experienced as a writer, right?

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And they have been such a good, like, just write the thing down.

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It doesn't have to be perfect, you know?

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And even when I look at books I've written, you know?

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eight years ago, I'm like, yeah, would write it differently now.

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And so part of it is really protecting the time and protecting the bubble.

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And also every time we, the joke is that we come together and we're like, it's okay if we don't write the book, but of course then our monotropic focus kicks in, like, and we go into hyper-focus and we do write the book, you know?

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And of course then there's editing and going back and forth, but that always feels more easeful once the book is written.

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Um, but writing a book about relationships was hard because even as a therapist, you know, was like, um, you know, I'm also just like a person and people are messy.

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And I Meg-John always says the mess is the message.

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And I was like, you are right.

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This is partially like.

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good because we acknowledge like we're not telling you how to do relationship.

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We are actually giving you some frameworks to understand why you do relationships in a certain ways and what are the tools out there that you could use ah if you want to do relationships differently.

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So for me, it's very much inviting people into intentionality, you know, so that there is the alignment of values with practices.

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But I absolutely have issues with procrastination and with like Gender Trauma another book that came out in 2020, which I wrote solo.

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That was much harder.

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That book was in my mind for years.

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I talked about it with people, including my editor was like, I need the book proposal now.

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This is the time right back in 2018, whenever it was.

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I kept pushing the deadline out.

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have another book that's been...

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contracted since 2020 and I still haven't given it to Routledge.

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So I have a lot of problems with procrastination.

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And when I write by myself, it's much harder.

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When I write with other people, I think that there is that accountability piece, which is why I love writing with people.

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When I'm writing by myself, I'm always like, oh, like, I don't know.

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This is like, should I write this book?

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And I mean, with Gender Trauma asked myself that all the time.

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was like, it should be an indigenous person writing this book because I'm really talking about how the gender binary is part of this colonial legacy that's at the heart of the book and how it pervades all the systems.

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um And I wanted somebody else to write it, but nobody did.

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And then I wrote it I was like, it can be part of the conversation.

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em there's also a piece about writing an art where You know, I have a lot of similar thoughts.

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people going to see this as performative sometimes even when I post on social media, right?

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Are people going to think this?

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And a lot of the practice for me has been my only job is to say what I need to say, let what I need to come through, come through.

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Cause it's also spiritual practice in some way.

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I don't know for you, but I feel that like almost spiritual compulsion to write.

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I don't know how else to explain it or talk about things.

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And then my job is just to let it go and it lands where it lands.

00:20:09.209 --> 00:20:12.220
And if there's valid critique, I'm so open to it.

00:20:12.220 --> 00:20:16.870
Um, and so I don't know if that, helps you, but, I'm curious about your process.

00:20:16.870 --> 00:20:18.961
Cause it sounds like, and I mean, I get it.

00:20:18.961 --> 00:20:21.181
Like writing about relationship, it's really hard.

00:20:21.181 --> 00:20:23.952
You're like excavating like your life.

00:20:23.952 --> 00:20:31.664
And, and then I was like, what if people under like, what if people get offended or what if people are like, you're talking about me here?

00:20:31.664 --> 00:20:33.192
You know, or I don't know.

00:20:33.192 --> 00:20:34.695
So I'm curious about.

00:20:34.771 --> 00:20:38.691
I don't know if I'm making sense and I'm like, yeah, good.

00:20:38.691 --> 00:20:54.542
that I would write too much from somebody with my type of experience because, you know, there are so many ways that we all are and that I really tried to, because I'm also...

00:20:54.542 --> 00:20:58.338
uh you know, just I'm connected, deeply connected to so many people.

00:20:58.338 --> 00:21:07.163
I'm a person who connects with people easily and has a lot of uh friendships, lot of students and mentees and stuff, and tell me about their lives and relationships.

00:21:07.163 --> 00:21:13.817
So really trying to like think about people who are not like me too, and right in the way that would be inclusive.

00:21:13.817 --> 00:21:15.739
And so that was something I remember.

00:21:16.008 --> 00:21:42.278
often being worried about and just yeah, being especially the level of ableism in the literature in this literature that like healthy relationships type of narratives and the idea that people's lives are like good if they meet normative standards, I was like, how do I really, really try to get out of that baggage when I am actually using some touchstones from that literature and some ideas that have been helpful to me?

00:21:42.278 --> 00:21:45.518
That was like something I felt really torn about.

00:21:45.518 --> 00:21:50.580
And the thing you just said about like thinking that the book you were writing, Gender Trauma, should be written by an indigenous person.

00:21:50.580 --> 00:22:03.344
I definitely, I didn't have this as much with this book, but when I first started writing zines in like the late 90s and when I first decided to try writing a book, I had that feeling like, Why should I write a book?

00:22:03.344 --> 00:22:04.955
Why should I take up any more space?

00:22:04.955 --> 00:22:10.784
And I really, it's been really helpful to me to see other people who I love and whose voices I value struggle with that.

00:22:10.784 --> 00:22:14.720
And just to be like, you're not stopping anyone else from doing this by doing this.

00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:15.951
It's not a zero sum game.

00:22:15.951 --> 00:22:18.555
Like only 20 will ever come out on this.

00:22:18.731 --> 00:22:23.951
And there's so many ways to support other writers and other people.

00:22:23.991 --> 00:22:31.652
That I think is something, if anyone listening to this is giving themself that story, just like, I think it's useful for us to remind each other.

00:22:31.871 --> 00:22:35.271
Also, it's something else people, a lot of people I know talk about.

00:22:35.271 --> 00:22:47.433
If I write this, someone else has already said it or it's being said, and I'm like, literally, if, I haven't read your book yet, but if you and I wrote the exact same content, our books would be different and that would be beneficial to readers.

00:22:47.433 --> 00:22:54.605
Because all of us need to read things multiple times and read ideas multiple times and from multiple perspectives.

00:22:54.605 --> 00:22:59.409
that is...

00:22:59.409 --> 00:23:01.049
I can't hear you.

00:23:01.089 --> 00:23:03.009
So sorry about that.

00:23:03.009 --> 00:23:06.470
I was like, I think there's some disturbance in the forest.

00:23:06.470 --> 00:23:07.849
I think you're back.

00:23:10.049 --> 00:23:11.509
Are we back?

00:23:11.509 --> 00:23:11.915
Yes.

00:23:11.915 --> 00:23:19.889
go back to what I said last, just that I was thinking, you some people also have the fear, like if they're writing a book or write an essay, someone else has already said this.

00:23:19.889 --> 00:23:22.892
And it's, I just think like...

00:23:23.432 --> 00:23:29.274
Every idea needs to be said a million times through each person's illustrations, each person's storytelling style.

00:23:29.274 --> 00:23:32.165
It comes out at a certain time when people catch it.

00:23:32.165 --> 00:23:35.476
Like everything we, we're all saying the same things over and over again.

00:23:35.476 --> 00:23:47.061
And that is actually what social movements are is like this, like, and it can be very tiring being in movements because we all have to say like, how many times have I explained to somebody why I'm an abolitionist and not a police reformer?

00:23:47.061 --> 00:23:52.405
And I will be saying that for the rest of my life because lots of people haven't heard it yet and deserve a chance to have that.

00:23:52.405 --> 00:23:52.976
conversation.

00:23:52.976 --> 00:24:01.817
anyway, just, but the one thing, the final thing I'll say that you're, that you made me think of is that experience when we revisit something we wrote a while ago.

00:24:01.817 --> 00:24:09.914
I'm currently writing and like they want to publish a new edition of Mutual Aid and a new edition of my first book, Normal Life.

00:24:10.220 --> 00:24:20.259
And so rereading these things and trying to decide, like trying to reflect, A, letting the contents alone.

00:24:20.259 --> 00:24:28.279
Like I wouldn't say that quite this way again, because it's, you in the case of normal life, I wrote that in 2009, it's many years later.

00:24:28.279 --> 00:24:36.557
But on the other hand, like, like reflecting on what has changed since I wrote those things and how I'm different.

00:24:36.557 --> 00:24:51.299
It's very, it's a very juicy process and I love reading people's new editions and seeing like a preface that like summarizes what happened in between or why these ideas are working differently now and so I'm hoping that it'll be useful.

00:24:51.299 --> 00:24:58.039
I'm much more intimidated by the normal life one because it's a much longer time period and so much has happened in trans politics.

00:24:58.681 --> 00:25:00.003
and so much of it is so painful.

00:25:00.003 --> 00:25:04.383
But I have to know, how long did you and your co-author get together?

00:25:04.383 --> 00:25:05.786
Did you go somewhere else?

00:25:05.786 --> 00:25:07.839
Were you in Duluth?

00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:09.623
Please set the scene.

00:25:10.250 --> 00:25:11.181
love this.

00:25:11.181 --> 00:25:11.529
my God.

00:25:11.529 --> 00:25:14.653
I also have so many things to say about what you just said.

00:25:14.653 --> 00:25:20.478
I feel like just my brain is sparking off in 500 different directions.

00:25:20.558 --> 00:25:33.549
Before I tell you that, which I will totally, I'm happy to tell you, um but what I think that is so valuable what you said and I so agree and that's why I reminded myself too when I write is like.

00:25:34.162 --> 00:25:39.567
I, you know, this is not like I'm such a Gen Xer, like we don't need to have Highlander syndrome, right?

00:25:39.567 --> 00:25:41.597
There can be only one, you know?

00:25:41.597 --> 00:25:47.032
And it's like, think sometimes we can get into that mentality because that's dominant culture, right?

00:25:47.032 --> 00:25:50.335
The tokenization, the extraction from minoritized folks.

00:25:50.335 --> 00:25:51.906
And I'm like, we need all of us.

00:25:51.906 --> 00:25:54.818
We need all the voices, all the stories.

00:25:54.918 --> 00:25:56.671
We don't all have all the pieces.

00:25:56.671 --> 00:25:57.500
That's okay.

00:25:57.500 --> 00:25:59.212
And so I love what you just said.

00:25:59.212 --> 00:26:03.245
And I really want to, like you said, we do need to say things more than once.

00:26:03.303 --> 00:26:19.401
I really want to reinforce that for folks out there that it's like, if you have something to share, share it because uh the people that you're talking to need to hear it exactly the way you say, and it will be different from the way somebody else says it, even if the foundations are similar, if that makes sense.

00:26:19.401 --> 00:26:20.922
So I love that you said all of that.

00:26:20.922 --> 00:26:25.713
uh And it's interesting that we had similar struggles and like, who am I to write this?

00:26:25.713 --> 00:26:30.806
And sometimes people have to remind me, well, not only have the credentials of like to write this.

00:26:30.806 --> 00:26:33.846
And also, like, you've been thinking about this for a long time.

00:26:33.846 --> 00:26:44.625
And I also don't think I love that you wrote this as just somebody who's committed to thinking about relationships in this broader world and not just as a, you know, somebody who's like a therapist.

00:26:44.625 --> 00:26:46.546
Like, so I think there's values in both.

00:26:46.546 --> 00:26:49.265
Anyway, going to your question.

00:26:51.286 --> 00:26:59.705
So I just want to preface that the way Meg-John and I write, I could not write like that by myself or with other people.

00:26:59.957 --> 00:27:08.624
Because we usually do write it all drafted like a week to 10 days for how to understand which is uh really not common.

00:27:08.624 --> 00:27:09.934
And I don't know how we do it.

00:27:09.934 --> 00:27:18.070
There's just some magic that happens in our coming together and writing that I don't even comprehend to be completely honest.

00:27:18.070 --> 00:27:22.153
I am not able to write books that fast by myself, just to be clear.

00:27:22.389 --> 00:27:29.935
um And so we usually get together somewhere that's not either of our terms, if that makes sense.

00:27:30.196 --> 00:27:38.213
And also because often we try to meet in the middle or if I'm going to Europe to like, this is my mom in Italy or do something for work, right?

00:27:38.213 --> 00:27:44.028
We try to get together so that we can catch up or write if we're working on a project together.

00:27:44.028 --> 00:27:52.717
um apart from during the pandemic when we did it online, we wrote to how to understand your sexuality was written online.

00:27:54.157 --> 00:27:56.097
And so we were somewhere else.

00:27:56.097 --> 00:28:11.897
We were in this beautiful place in Galicia and we were being hosted by another lovely queer person, Anna, who has this beautiful place, just loves our work and is friends with Meg-John So we stayed there.

00:28:11.897 --> 00:28:14.634
Other times we've had Airbnbs, but...

00:28:14.634 --> 00:28:27.745
This time I was really grateful um that we could stay like Anna's place and that they took such good care of us too while we were there and let us do our thing.

00:28:27.745 --> 00:28:35.393
But then also we cooked dinner together in the evening and had little bit of community as well, which was really wonderful.

00:28:35.393 --> 00:28:40.998
uh But we do kind of really try to take ourselves out of our day to day.

00:28:40.998 --> 00:28:43.029
there's a lot of distractions in the day to day.

00:28:43.029 --> 00:28:58.010
Like when we wrote How to Understand Your Sexuality online during the beginning of the pandemic, because the pandemic is still going on, of course, um it was much harder because we were both in our spaces.

00:28:58.010 --> 00:29:07.738
I still had demands of like, you know, it's harder to uh unplug from the demands of parenting when you are in the space where your kids are.

00:29:07.738 --> 00:29:10.469
Even if you're not available during the time you're writing, right?

00:29:10.469 --> 00:29:20.242
It doesn't, at least for me, it doesn't land the same monotropic focus where I just leave and breathe this book for like a week, 10 days, two weeks.

00:29:20.423 --> 00:29:24.504
And that's a huge privilege, but it's always been so helpful.

00:29:24.784 --> 00:29:36.917
And even when I was writing Gender Trauma, there were pieces where I had to take myself out um of my house, even if it was like for a weekend, go visit somebody or I'll see it or...

00:29:36.917 --> 00:29:45.877
uh, just take myself out of my day to day and, just leave and breathe and have nightmares, uh, or whatever it was from the books.

00:29:45.877 --> 00:29:48.597
I have to say while I was writing, I had to understand your relationships.

00:29:48.597 --> 00:29:51.998
I had a few nightmares because we were also writing about family and origin.

00:29:51.998 --> 00:29:52.976
So trauma came up.

00:29:52.976 --> 00:29:54.617
So it's not an easy process.

00:29:54.617 --> 00:30:01.538
I don't know if that makes sense, but, uh, I do find that if I can unplug from my day to day life, it does make it easier.

00:30:01.538 --> 00:30:03.187
And now that.

00:30:03.187 --> 00:30:04.878
I can travel with less ease.

00:30:04.878 --> 00:30:10.040
trying to figure out how do I create that bubble without as much travel, if that makes sense.

00:30:10.040 --> 00:30:12.879
But I really need that full immersion.

00:30:12.879 --> 00:30:19.204
I leave, breathe this book while I'm at a certain stage of the writing, if that makes sense.

00:30:19.204 --> 00:30:21.475
uh Yeah.

00:30:21.475 --> 00:30:22.616
gotten so much harder.

00:30:22.616 --> 00:30:32.520
You know, I have a full time job teaching at a law school and then I have like a million, you know, things I do in community and lots of working groups and mutual aid work and supporting and stuff.

00:30:32.520 --> 00:30:33.932
And so I've always find it.

00:30:33.932 --> 00:30:39.483
like I have this huge stack of, you know, emails and things all the time to deal with.

00:30:39.483 --> 00:31:06.438
um and I used to at different times over the years, a couple of times I had gone to like writing residencies where I would be more offline away from that stuff, but as everything's gone online, especially in last five years, even if I can carve out that kind of time and go somewhere else, it doesn't really work as well because I'm on a thousand Zoom meetings and I'm doing, no matter where I am.

00:31:06.438 --> 00:31:14.140
So I am struggling with that and also noticing that my attention has changed my level of distractibility.

00:31:14.140 --> 00:31:23.632
And there's so many great books about this and so much good information out there about just like how kind of like what we can do to care for our attention and our focus.

00:31:23.632 --> 00:31:41.672
And I'm just noticing right now as I'm working on writing projects this summer, in addition to like 10,000 community projects, how much I need to come back and do kind of a evaluation and track practice shift around some of those habits.

00:31:42.230 --> 00:31:53.589
I really hear that and a lot of things shared that because and honestly, of my actually all of my general public books have been reading after I left academia.

00:31:53.589 --> 00:32:09.609
I have to say I used to be an academic and I've been in a peer reviewed papers and book chapters and and I agree like when you know when you're in the academic environment, it's really nigh to impossible in my experience to really unplug in that way.

00:32:09.609 --> 00:32:11.190
And so yeah.

00:32:11.190 --> 00:32:14.509
since leaving academia in 2015.

00:32:15.730 --> 00:32:27.129
It's like my creativity just got unleashed also because I felt very compressed or constricted in academia to write in a certain way.

00:32:27.129 --> 00:32:36.629
And I'm curious about your process actually of like, as you are an academic and you also write books that are accessible to the general public.

00:32:37.789 --> 00:32:38.970
that balance, right?

00:32:38.970 --> 00:32:55.004
Do you have those moments where you're like, if I write this book about relationships and my field is different, like, is there going to be some judgment from colleagues or the field or like, I'm just really curious about the relationship between your academic, I mean, and I love your academic work.

00:32:55.004 --> 00:32:59.995
It's how I first came across your work was through your academic work.

00:33:00.675 --> 00:33:07.238
But do you ever feel tension between the academic world and the academic world work that you do?

00:33:07.269 --> 00:33:13.166
in the movement organizing community work, writing for the community that you do.

00:33:13.166 --> 00:33:14.409
Does that question make sense?

00:33:14.409 --> 00:33:19.825
Yeah, yeah, for me, it's like I've never been very tied to academia.

00:33:19.825 --> 00:33:22.007
you know, I started out, I got a job.

00:33:22.007 --> 00:33:27.730
I was a poverty lawyer and I sometimes wrote things because I love because I like you.

00:33:27.730 --> 00:33:30.533
I feel this need to like, you know, say stuff.

00:33:30.533 --> 00:33:34.287
I was I wrote zines and then sometimes somebody would invite me to write something for an academic journal.

00:33:34.287 --> 00:33:40.221
So I would just write it like usually because of the invitation, not because I thought and then I would just make it into a PDF or a zine or whatever.

00:33:40.221 --> 00:33:42.687
Like because I know people can't get my paywalls.

00:33:42.687 --> 00:33:44.147
And so it's kind of random.

00:33:44.147 --> 00:33:46.649
And then I very randomly ended up with an academic job.

00:33:46.649 --> 00:33:49.691
Mainly I was working in like a collective organization.

00:33:49.691 --> 00:33:56.834
I wanted to cycle out as staff because we had like, you only a few people could get paid at any given time and most of us were unpaid.

00:33:56.834 --> 00:34:00.674
And so I was like, this is like, I got like a teaching fellowship and I like, this will be a short term thing.

00:34:00.674 --> 00:34:06.231
But at that time, like, No trans no out trans person had ever been hired as a law professor in United States.

00:34:06.231 --> 00:34:08.663
So I was like, obviously, I won't get a job.

00:34:08.663 --> 00:34:24.851
And then I did got a job at a very like, not elite law school where m I knew that I was not going to do the things that are expected of law professors like law professors are literally just supposed to publish law review articles, which nobody needs which are behind a paywall and are like incredibly long and boringly structured.

00:34:24.851 --> 00:34:26.721
So from the beginning, I was like, I was working on normal life.

00:34:26.721 --> 00:34:31.483
was like, I already never was writing the stuff that that like gets you credit in that world.

00:34:31.483 --> 00:34:35.746
But I also trying to get like a better job as a law professor because I don't care about that world.

00:34:35.746 --> 00:34:37.026
It's literally just my day job.

00:34:37.026 --> 00:34:38.465
I really love my students.

00:34:38.465 --> 00:34:42.066
I love teaching, but I don't care about legal academia.

00:34:42.066 --> 00:34:47.766
I mean, there's some people, there's like a handful of people in legal academia doing abolitionist work or doing critical race theory.

00:34:47.766 --> 00:35:00.086
And I care a lot about those people, but I don't have any internal need to be seen in that world as legitimate, which I would, my work is so not legitimate in that world.

00:35:00.204 --> 00:35:05.698
couldn't be worse than to publish a relationships self Help book that has the word fuck in the title.

00:35:05.698 --> 00:35:18.076
mean, like, it's like, could, it's like, you know, I don't think my school knows what to do with me, but also like, that's okay with me because my, I mean, yeah, they really discourage writing books even because they want you just to write.

00:35:18.076 --> 00:35:25.340
It's like, I just, I think I share the story because I actually know a lot of people who I think become very tortured.

00:35:25.450 --> 00:35:47.032
by they have beautiful ideas and then they do something like go to graduate school or get it could even be another thing not academia but when you get immersed in a job and then you assess yourself through those lenses and lose sight of like whatever you actually think you're trying to do with this incredibly short life, it's deadly.

00:35:47.032 --> 00:36:04.150
And for me, it's been really awesome because when I've been being like harassed at my job, because you can imagine, mean, I'm, you know, openly anti Zionist, the only trans person that most people have ever met when I'm having bath and, you know, I'm supporting students who are dealing with anti black racism and we're doing organizing on campus.

00:36:04.150 --> 00:36:13.999
You can imagine how much some of my people are not like me and I don't, It's so deeply awesome to be like, really don't care how I'm seen here, except for by people who are right on.

00:36:13.999 --> 00:36:18.983
Like I'd love to have genuine connection with anyone here who wants that and everybody else.

00:36:19.704 --> 00:36:30.178
I'm not for you and like that's not, and I think that is so key like for whatever any of us are doing, because most of us are in some kind of job that is not values based.

00:36:30.178 --> 00:36:33.680
We're being paid by our opponents in some way if we've got a paid job.

00:36:33.680 --> 00:36:37.051
And so how to like be in something and not of it.

00:36:37.051 --> 00:36:39.072
And I think that's especially hard.

00:36:39.211 --> 00:36:41.434
for academics, they're like putting their name.

00:36:41.434 --> 00:36:46.552
It's like very, it's like a, it's a whole like fiction about like self, about individuality.

00:36:46.552 --> 00:36:53.117
I think it can be hard for artists, know, a variety of people who, where the work is, is individualized like that.

00:36:53.117 --> 00:37:01.164
It's really hard to be like this actually, this world, its values, like that's not what I go by.

00:37:01.164 --> 00:37:17.484
And I think it's made, it's the only reason that job has been tolerable for me is because I feel pretty like, I'm just like, I'm here to either support student organizing, directly support students in learning radical or liberatory ideas, and like get a paycheck that I can redistribute in my community.

00:37:17.484 --> 00:37:18.824
And like, that's it.

00:37:18.824 --> 00:37:23.364
And I'm not gonna let it determine much else about how I spend my time.

00:37:23.666 --> 00:37:25.807
Oh, I love that so much.

00:37:26.106 --> 00:37:32.550
It's also so interesting because it's like, as I was listening to you, I was like, yeah, that makes complete sense.

00:37:32.550 --> 00:37:39.383
uh And as I was waking up to academia as a colleague, I went into academia pretty young.

00:37:39.383 --> 00:37:51.680
was like my way out in a lot of ways of like my family and class mobility and also like escaping family of origin and country of origin.

00:37:51.680 --> 00:37:53.531
for lots of different reasons.

00:37:54.472 --> 00:37:57.604
And so it took me a minute to be like, on, academia.

00:37:57.604 --> 00:38:04.278
And then when I moved to the so-called US, it was even worse because academia here is a total different thing.

00:38:04.278 --> 00:38:11.684
Like I think if I was still in Europe, I would probably still have an academic job to be completely honest, to go with my writing.

00:38:11.684 --> 00:38:15.126
here is so, and when you succeed, it gets worse, right?

00:38:15.126 --> 00:38:18.909
Especially because I was like in public health or school of medicine.

00:38:18.909 --> 00:38:21.173
I've worked in both of the universities in Minnesota.

00:38:21.173 --> 00:38:27.814
And the success there is you become a grant writer and you bring more and more money into the university.

00:38:27.814 --> 00:38:32.314
And then even, you know, I had an NIH grant and then I got invited to do some grant review.

00:38:32.314 --> 00:38:42.693
And that was like my wake up moment of like, oh, people are never going to put money in my communities the way I need them to put money in my communities to truly do the work.

00:38:42.693 --> 00:38:47.134
This is just its own like, you know, industrial complex.

00:38:47.134 --> 00:38:49.942
And of course I also, you know, was relying.

00:38:49.942 --> 00:38:55.002
on my employer for my visa and they kept delaying sponsoring my green card.

00:38:55.002 --> 00:38:56.222
That's a whole other story.

00:38:56.222 --> 00:39:04.402
And so it was really interesting how that positionality then the minute that I filed for my green card independently in the end.

00:39:04.402 --> 00:39:06.142
And I was like, okay, I'm free.

00:39:06.142 --> 00:39:08.362
I was like, I can't do this anymore.

00:39:08.362 --> 00:39:14.182
And I think if I had a different relationship or a different time, I might have had because I agree with you.

00:39:14.182 --> 00:39:17.862
And I remember one of my mentors looking at me and going, it's just a job.

00:39:17.862 --> 00:39:19.922
And if it's like this painful.

00:39:20.481 --> 00:39:22.413
like, is it really worth it?

00:39:22.413 --> 00:39:23.153
was like, yes.

00:39:23.153 --> 00:39:30.945
And that's when I took all my savings and gave them to a lawyer to figure out my green card, you know, and then I was free to write.

00:39:30.945 --> 00:39:40.248
And so it's really interesting also how we managed to do the work of our heart in community while trying to navigate capitalism, right?

00:39:40.248 --> 00:39:48.182
I feel like I've been thinking about this a lot as an aging disabled trans person who now finally has citizenship privilege.

00:39:48.182 --> 00:39:54.265
at least until they take it away, hopefully not, know, feels nothing is certain right now.

00:39:54.265 --> 00:40:00.568
And so, yeah, now that it's so interesting how we all find ways to survive in those systems, right?

00:40:00.568 --> 00:40:01.258
One way or another.

00:40:01.258 --> 00:40:10.272
And yes, nobody, mean, apart of your soup, unless you're like Stephen King or something, very few authors can make money from their books.

00:40:10.272 --> 00:40:13.032
We all have jobs, as far as I know.

00:40:13.032 --> 00:40:15.792
to make a book and a podcast, right?

00:40:15.792 --> 00:40:22.292
Because it's like you're doing work to try to reach people and then none of that, I mean, if you go on tour, you, all of it.

00:40:22.292 --> 00:40:25.412
And I think that that people don't know that, which is understandable.

00:40:25.412 --> 00:40:26.932
People are like, you're selling something else and making money.

00:40:26.932 --> 00:40:33.211
I've been really thinking about this because me and the people I'm making the podcast with, we just decided to start a Patreon.

00:40:34.252 --> 00:40:34.974
And...

00:40:34.974 --> 00:40:37.396
It's like I've never done that kind of thing before.

00:40:37.396 --> 00:40:45.714
I've always, if I make money through giving a speech or something, I always give that money to usually people in prison, sometimes like grassroots mutual aid projects.

00:40:45.714 --> 00:40:50.419
I'm really, redistribution of wealth is a really big part of my practice for a long time.

00:40:50.419 --> 00:40:52.039
So what does it mean to raise money for this?

00:40:52.039 --> 00:40:58.926
But there's one person working on the podcast who I really wanna be able to pay a small amount monthly.

00:40:58.926 --> 00:40:59.287
And...

00:40:59.287 --> 00:41:09.292
m And we have some expenses related to podcasts and also like everyone's jobs who's working on the podcast are pretty endangered right now because of the stuff that's going on.

00:41:09.292 --> 00:41:27.210
And so just this question of like, oh my God, like, yeah, like how do you hustle to get by and what happens when your hustle ends and what's the, you know, all of us, our shared purpose is just to get out radical ideas that support our movements and...

00:41:27.210 --> 00:41:31.510
Yeah, and none of that is work that's paid and it's, yeah, it's really complicated.

00:41:31.510 --> 00:41:37.582
It's like, it's really, and I think I see this a lot, you know, with young people ask me this question a lot about how to like survive.

00:41:37.932 --> 00:41:40.892
their values, especially because I really discourage people from being lawyers.

00:41:40.892 --> 00:41:46.312
I talk openly about some of the limits of academia, nonprofits and stuff and what it's like.

00:41:46.692 --> 00:41:52.532
The main thing I think is, which is very hard, having the lowest expenses possible.

00:41:52.572 --> 00:41:55.432
Not being too big a consumer is really helpful.

00:41:55.432 --> 00:41:58.492
Of course, many of us have dependents, so that's unavoidable.

00:41:58.492 --> 00:42:03.731
Many of us have particular expenses related to disability and other specific things.

00:42:03.731 --> 00:42:09.679
But as much as possible, collectivizing our well-being living with groups if that's possible.

00:42:09.679 --> 00:42:13.760
That's the kind of stuff radicals have always done to survive.

00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:18.682
And living inexpensively as possible, which is very hard.

00:42:18.682 --> 00:42:21.458
Rent and food and everything is higher than it's ever been.

00:42:21.458 --> 00:42:24.344
It's unreal how expensive life is.

00:42:24.344 --> 00:42:33.802
But I think that that's like, what's hard is people have been sold an idea that social justice is a career and that everybody should have a certain set of...

00:42:33.802 --> 00:42:53.300
really expensive lifestyle things and it's really a trap and yeah, it's painful and I don't, it's like I don't want people, I think I'm worried people comes off like, you're like this old person telling me to not wanna own a house or something and I'm just like, I don't know, like it just depends, like you have one short life, like.

00:42:54.142 --> 00:43:02.019
you gotta pick what you're gonna put your time into and there are no guarantees and we're all living in a system that's unraveling and crumbling.

00:43:02.019 --> 00:43:18.272
It's very painful to try to, and also because most radical work will be unpaid, like all the mutual aid work is unpaid and the writing and the media work and the artwork, it's very rare to get paid and I think that's painful to just really face that.

00:43:18.774 --> 00:43:19.414
Absolutely.

00:43:19.414 --> 00:43:20.854
I love we're talking about this.

00:43:20.854 --> 00:43:24.814
I had that moment of like, oh, are we talking about the right things in air quotes?

00:43:24.814 --> 00:43:26.653
And I was like, what the hell are the right things?

00:43:26.653 --> 00:43:28.534
We're talking about whatever we want to talk about.

00:43:28.534 --> 00:43:33.734
feel like, I was like, cause I looked at the time and I was like, oh, there were all these other things I wanted to talk to you about the book.

00:43:33.734 --> 00:43:45.950
But I think this is an important conversation actually, cause I've been thinking about this a lot and I live in an international household and you know, one of my kids is a young adult and she.

00:43:45.950 --> 00:43:51.093
I have consent to talk about some of the things uh in our life from her as well.

00:43:51.193 --> 00:44:01.951
She talks about, I don't know if I'll ever be able to own a house, or what does it mean for her as a Gen Z-er, who's like early 20s.

00:44:01.951 --> 00:44:12.389
And also it's interesting to see the judgment sometimes even from radical activists or people in community about the fact that, our...

00:44:13.206 --> 00:44:21.826
uh, polycule, our household has had the privilege to support our kid, our neurodivergent kid to like go through college with a part-time job rather than a full-time job.

00:44:21.826 --> 00:44:22.206
Right.

00:44:22.206 --> 00:44:28.146
I, I've done the life of working like 24, seven, what was a weekend?

00:44:28.146 --> 00:44:33.266
I could not tell you throughout all my twenties and, and firties actually even.

00:44:33.266 --> 00:44:34.606
And now it's questionable.

00:44:34.606 --> 00:44:36.966
My family would say, do you know what any weekend is?

00:44:36.966 --> 00:44:54.640
And it's like, sometimes, uh, you know, and, um, But I feel like even in community, sometimes we have those values, but then somehow all our trauma comes up when we see, for example, young people getting parented in an affirming or supportive way.

00:44:54.640 --> 00:45:08.310
Or when we see, uh you know, we have a friend and we've been talking about wanting to make sure that we build like a tiny home on where we live so that they can stop like.

00:45:08.310 --> 00:45:11.210
you know, they're disabled, they really shouldn't be working anymore.

00:45:11.210 --> 00:45:20.850
But how do you not work, you know, and survive in this world because you need to not work for at least four or years before you're even considered for disability benefits.

00:45:20.850 --> 00:45:21.630
This is a reality.

00:45:21.630 --> 00:45:27.810
People don't even understand how, you know, sometimes people are like, oh, why don't you just apply for disability benefits?

00:45:27.810 --> 00:45:31.090
I was like, do you even know how that works?

00:45:31.090 --> 00:45:37.942
I was like, that's the reason why so many disabled folks like hassle so hard being self-employed, right?

00:45:37.942 --> 00:45:52.586
um But I think even kind of within radical community, sometimes that can be, especially with white queer folks in my experience, white Anglo queer folks, a failure of imagination of how we could live differently, right?

00:45:52.667 --> 00:45:55.408
Or people are like, I tried living collectively, I hated it.

00:45:55.408 --> 00:45:57.689
And I was like, well, yeah, me too.

00:45:57.929 --> 00:46:00.110
I tried it, I failed, right?

00:46:00.110 --> 00:46:00.832
Exactly.

00:46:00.832 --> 00:46:02.752
we're all so afraid of conflict.

00:46:02.752 --> 00:46:25.152
We're all so afraid of vicious conflict that we pay a million times more rent than we need to and don't share cooking and don't, know, like the level of the default to isolation right now in our culture, that being afraid of other people, mostly just because we're afraid of feedback and conflict is actually like...

00:46:25.152 --> 00:46:41.068
really impoverishing people like materially and because partly just have the support we need around parenting around disability around aging and I love that you said that because I'm like, and I find that so many people can only think about relationship in this transactional way.

00:46:41.068 --> 00:46:45.581
Even like when I talk about like, hey, let's get organized with some more community care, right?

00:46:45.581 --> 00:46:49.152
And sometimes we're like, let's do a spreadsheet of skills we have to offer.

00:46:49.152 --> 00:46:52.114
I'm like, that is not what I'm talking about.

00:46:52.114 --> 00:46:55.394
I mean, like, sure, we can also make a spreadsheet.

00:46:55.394 --> 00:47:05.401
But I find that sometimes even with beloved Anglo queer folks who have all this values, they're like, they're still think about trans relationships as very transactional, right?

00:47:05.401 --> 00:47:09.161
You have the skill, I have the skill, we do a direct exchange, right?

00:47:09.181 --> 00:47:29.332
Or, and I think that's the piece I'm really interested in when, and why I love your book as well, it's like, cause this is not just about our personal relationship, and I love that you talk about the person as political, which of course I was raised initially a second wave feminist, which of course I'm not anymore, but you know, I got out of that thinking, but.

00:47:29.332 --> 00:47:31.733
That was very much for me from feminism, right?

00:47:31.733 --> 00:47:36.584
The personal is political, like, and that never left for me.

00:47:36.584 --> 00:47:38.685
And yet I so agree with you.

00:47:38.685 --> 00:47:42.126
We impoverish ourselves, we impoverish our communities.

00:47:42.286 --> 00:47:53.630
And so what you think are the skills that we need to really not keep encountering like this, like, conflict avoidance, if we want to call it that, right?

00:47:53.630 --> 00:47:55.470
Or fear of conflict.

00:47:55.510 --> 00:47:58.824
to use less clinical language.

00:47:58.824 --> 00:48:03.899
But I think a piece of it is I'm doing white supremacy as well.

00:48:03.899 --> 00:48:13.629
But what you think is needed in our communities to start em going back to this beautiful experience, which many failed of collective living, I understand.

00:48:13.629 --> 00:48:16.813
But I think there's still a need for us to figure this out.

00:48:16.813 --> 00:48:18.504
that, am I making sense?

00:48:18.889 --> 00:48:38.039
Yeah, I mean, I think there's like, like many skills, but some of the ones that are coming up a lot for me right now, and I'm facilitating groups and working with things in this book, like, I mean, one thing this book is about is just emotional awareness, like, do I know that I'm having a strong feeling?

00:48:38.280 --> 00:49:05.600
And can I be like, Dean, like, you're scared right now, or they're shame or there's anxiety or there's anger because even just knowing I'm having a strong feeling might give me like that millimeter meter pause before I write you a mean text or storm out or think that this group isn't for me or, you know, like, and then being curious about that feeling the deeper work of like, have I felt this before?

00:49:05.600 --> 00:49:07.379
Am I feeling a familiar role?

00:49:07.379 --> 00:49:15.652
It reminds me of stuff in my family or in school or, you know, all those questions, but just that first thing of like, I'm having a strong reaction right now.

00:49:15.652 --> 00:49:16.514
That's one skill.

00:49:16.514 --> 00:49:26.861
think another one I'm focusing on a lot is like, can I, if you're having a strong feeling in front of me, what happens?

00:49:26.861 --> 00:49:28.010
Do I check out?

00:49:28.010 --> 00:49:30.222
Do I give you a bunch of advice to try to shut you up?

00:49:30.222 --> 00:49:31.378
Do I join your strong feeling?

00:49:31.378 --> 00:49:32.664
And I'm like, yeah, they're terrible.

00:49:32.664 --> 00:49:33.535
Let's get them.

00:49:33.535 --> 00:49:35.106
Let's kick them out of the group.

00:49:35.106 --> 00:49:38.108
You know, kind of what are my habits and could I...

00:49:38.198 --> 00:49:42.813
gain a skill of being like, okay, I'm hearing Alex, I'm saying that sounds really hard.

00:49:42.813 --> 00:49:49.600
I'm neither ramping you up to a revenge fantasy, nor telling you you have to feel better and minimizing.

00:49:49.801 --> 00:49:56.789
then if you're having a kind of wave of feeling in front of me, and as a part of your community, I help.

00:49:56.789 --> 00:50:03.843
hold that with you, you might not tear off and go like do something really disorganizing in our community or leave and never come back or whatever.

00:50:03.843 --> 00:50:16.820
um And then the next level is if you're having a strong feeling at me, if you're like, Dean, you really suck, you shouldn't have done this, or I'm really mad at you, I'm disappointed, can I still hold on to myself?

00:50:16.820 --> 00:50:23.707
when you're and know like Alex is talking about me, but in a lot of ways they're talking about their own experience.

00:50:23.707 --> 00:50:26.519
You know, I feel defensiveness coming up.

00:50:26.519 --> 00:50:27.890
feel fear.

00:50:27.890 --> 00:50:29.582
Can I get support from others?

00:50:29.582 --> 00:50:34.336
Like, do I have options instead of just like toe to toe?

00:50:34.336 --> 00:50:37.149
I'm gonna, you know, do my first reaction.

00:50:37.149 --> 00:50:41.222
Like that skill set is like another one I'm talking about a lot right now.

00:50:41.222 --> 00:50:42.903
And a lot of that is about...

00:50:43.262 --> 00:50:46.113
conflict avoidance and just learning like what are my habits?

00:50:46.113 --> 00:50:47.224
I run towards conflict?

00:50:47.224 --> 00:50:48.214
Do I run away?

00:50:48.214 --> 00:50:49.885
Do I freeze up?

00:50:49.885 --> 00:50:52.046
Do I become the fixer?

00:50:52.046 --> 00:50:57.318
know, like just knowing in groups, you know, what, what, do I default to?

00:50:57.318 --> 00:51:05.442
And because the things that might feel safe or easy are often not happening in this reality.

00:51:05.442 --> 00:51:08.704
And then we all get into our little roles and then we do a family drama.

00:51:08.704 --> 00:51:12.626
And now our group mutual aid project has gone down the tubes.

00:51:12.626 --> 00:51:23.012
So that's an I mean, a lot of them are about emotional awareness, feedback, know, giving and receiving direct feedback, not being afraid.

00:51:23.012 --> 00:51:25.363
Like I think most of us withhold it.

00:51:25.363 --> 00:51:31.397
I don't mention the dishes 10 times in a row and then I blow up at you or I, you know, move out or whatever.

00:51:31.397 --> 00:51:36.352
And could I instead practice like on both sides, like.

00:51:36.352 --> 00:51:45.816
Hey, I wanna have a friendship where we tell each other things and when you're late to meet me for dinner, sometimes I feel like, you know, sad or angry.

00:51:45.816 --> 00:51:51.479
We talk about it and you are practicing like, okay, Dean's not saying I'm the worst person ever.

00:51:51.479 --> 00:51:59.743
He's just, you know, can I try on hearing what Dean's saying and maybe getting some support for another friend if I'm kind of going off.

00:51:59.743 --> 00:52:01.884
Can I just listen right now and tell Dean I heard him?

00:52:01.884 --> 00:52:10.339
Like all that basic stuff, which it relates to the way we, operationalize white supremacy and ableism and sexism at each other.

00:52:10.480 --> 00:52:18.783
But that's the like, I think what happens is that sometimes people are like, I'm gonna go look for sexism in myself, I'm gonna go look for racism.

00:52:18.783 --> 00:52:21.805
It's not labeled racism and sexism inside.

00:52:21.805 --> 00:52:39.259
It's labeled, Alex doesn't like me enough, or uh why did they all have a drink without me after the meeting or like, Usually it's I'm actually feeling victimized when I'm about to do something that others may experience as aggressive or harmful.

00:52:39.259 --> 00:52:50.211
So learning about my own states is a way of trying to bring my behavior more in line with my values.

00:52:50.248 --> 00:53:07.734
Part of that is most of us can't even look at all the times It's not because we feel like my god if I found out that I actually do racist stuff all the time And I do sexist stuff it would be so devastating instead of just like yeah, of course I do everyone does Everyone's out of alignment.

00:53:07.734 --> 00:53:20.615
Everyone's practicing that it's once I realize how imperfect we all are I can more easily like let you know that you were imperfect and it was hard for me apologize when you mentioned to me, hey Dean, saw something happen.

00:53:20.615 --> 00:53:21.657
didn't feel good.

00:53:21.657 --> 00:53:37.584
Like kind of like letting go of some of the perfectionism so that we might have like an authentic exchange when things go sideways, which they constantly do because we were raised in this poison, you know.

00:53:37.974 --> 00:53:38.653
Absolutely.

00:53:38.653 --> 00:53:41.235
And I love that you're talking about conflict.

00:53:41.436 --> 00:53:43.557
I love conflict intimacy.

00:53:43.557 --> 00:53:49.068
And I remember when I moved to the West, especially living in the Midwest, people were like, what?

00:53:49.068 --> 00:53:50.153
What did you just say?

00:53:50.153 --> 00:53:52.461
I was like, intimacy.

00:53:52.461 --> 00:53:59.104
When you're close enough to somebody, I think in community and movement organizing, that's so important.

00:53:59.104 --> 00:54:03.562
Are we connected enough and trust each other enough that if we have a rupture?

00:54:03.562 --> 00:54:11.105
we can talk through it and repair and that we're committed to each other's wellbeing, not just our own individual, but our collective wellbeing.

00:54:11.105 --> 00:54:13.547
And that takes a lot of practice.

00:54:13.547 --> 00:54:21.830
And also I've been, I'm also intrigued culturally the number of times where I think I'm addressing like a small rapture, right?

00:54:21.830 --> 00:54:29.474
So I might text a friend like, uh hey, when you have capacity, can we talk about something that happened at this event?

00:54:29.474 --> 00:54:30.414
Because...

00:54:30.430 --> 00:54:34.351
I had little bit of a feeling, no big deal, so I don't feel urgency, you know.

00:54:34.411 --> 00:54:40.543
And all of a sudden I might be like, you know, there's a very strong response and I'm like, okay, I want to understand.

00:54:40.543 --> 00:54:44.910
I'm like, and all of a sudden I'm in conflict in air quotes.

00:54:44.910 --> 00:54:47.530
And maybe it's because I live in the Midwest, I don't know.

00:54:47.530 --> 00:54:50.176
But all of a sudden I was like, is this conflict?

00:54:50.176 --> 00:54:54.856
I was just being like authentic and letting you know so that this doesn't accumulate, right?

00:54:54.856 --> 00:54:56.897
I don't want things to fester.

00:54:57.298 --> 00:54:59.030
But it's really hard because...

00:54:59.030 --> 00:55:04.150
One of the things I realized after many, years of reflection of like, what's happening in this pattern?

00:55:04.210 --> 00:55:16.510
I was like, oh, if Anglo white folks in the US need to be so upset to say something, they think that if I'm saying something, I must be raging inside.

00:55:16.510 --> 00:55:19.470
In the bad times, was like, whoa, whoa, you feel so strongly.

00:55:19.470 --> 00:55:20.310
was like, oh, do I?

00:55:20.310 --> 00:55:22.370
I mean, I'm passionate about this.

00:55:22.370 --> 00:55:23.269
guess, yeah.

00:55:23.269 --> 00:55:26.550
Because I was growing up in a culture at a time where it's like the...

00:55:26.550 --> 00:55:31.190
you know, lots of big feelings, lots of loudness, you know, in Southern Italy.

00:55:31.190 --> 00:55:35.390
And it's just, you know, and you can also like be upset with each other.

00:55:35.390 --> 00:55:39.370
That doesn't mean you're like, don't love each other or don't care about each other.

00:55:39.370 --> 00:55:39.710
Right.

00:55:39.710 --> 00:55:41.988
And so exactly.

00:55:41.988 --> 00:55:46.788
I think people are like, if there's one thing Alex doesn't like about me, it's over.

00:55:47.190 --> 00:55:49.590
And I'm like, let's not, community works.

00:55:49.590 --> 00:55:50.570
That's not our friendships work.

00:55:50.570 --> 00:55:54.110
And I remember even a friend going, how can you keep showing up in community?

00:55:54.110 --> 00:55:56.430
Like, and I don't, there are people I don't like.

00:55:56.430 --> 00:55:58.289
was like, yeah, there are people I don't like.

00:55:58.289 --> 00:56:02.570
was like, community is not for like, everybody's my best friend.

00:56:02.670 --> 00:56:04.890
We, yes.

00:56:05.454 --> 00:56:08.476
most things are kind of uncomfortable, boring.

00:56:08.476 --> 00:56:09.407
I'm really curious.

00:56:09.407 --> 00:56:27.148
Okay, I'm gonna sound like such a classic American right now, but I had this experience of visiting Italy, because my book, Mutual Aid, came out in Italian, and I was hosted by these amazing, brilliant, radical people who published it, and we went to maybe four or five different towns, and I did events.

00:56:27.372 --> 00:56:33.652
And my experience was that the events were very multi-generational.

00:56:33.692 --> 00:56:42.272
People had incredibly long attention spans, stayed for, they wanted to have like a three hour event, listen to me doing, you know, it was a back and forth translation.

00:56:42.272 --> 00:56:45.012
So it's like, that's kind of hard to listen that way.

00:56:45.012 --> 00:56:48.672
And people would be 85 there and ask like a brilliant question.

00:56:48.672 --> 00:56:51.512
And they were like teenagers, nobody was looking at a phone.

00:56:51.832 --> 00:56:59.652
And I was just kind of like, is social culture like a bit more intact?

00:56:59.652 --> 00:57:05.897
And also most people I met, even if they were super radical, had returned to live in their hometown.

00:57:05.897 --> 00:57:15.664
Even if they'd gone somewhere else to study, there was also a lot of people from Southern Italy having to move north for jobs and all the things, all the complexities of economic systems were under.

00:57:15.664 --> 00:57:33.374
But I just really noticed that it was very different to talk about ideas together and that people just seemed to have more time for each other and for people who were different from them, especially in terms of age, which was, you don't see that a lot in the US.

00:57:33.374 --> 00:57:37.731
And anyway, I was just curious, like, you have, you really have been immersed in both cultures.

00:57:37.750 --> 00:57:40.030
Yeah, no, I think that's a great question.

00:57:40.030 --> 00:57:44.430
And my caveat is that I immigrated in 1993.

00:57:44.530 --> 00:57:46.610
It really ages me when I was 22.

00:57:46.610 --> 00:57:48.050
So I was born and brought up.

00:57:48.050 --> 00:57:49.990
did my first degree in Italy.

00:57:50.190 --> 00:57:54.269
And my mom and family are still there.

00:57:54.269 --> 00:57:55.850
So I do return.

00:57:55.850 --> 00:58:04.532
But definitely when I was growing up in the 70s and 80s, absolutely, I think it is changing.

00:58:04.532 --> 00:58:06.003
I mean, obviously it's changing.

00:58:06.003 --> 00:58:17.113
under fascism again, which I never thought I would see in my lifetime in Italy, given that it's written in our constitution that the fascist party could never reform, but people find ways around it.

00:58:17.113 --> 00:58:27.882
Anyway, so that aside, yes, especially in the South of Italy, I think there is still more of a relational culture and more of a multi-generational culture.

00:58:27.882 --> 00:58:30.604
that everything you said to me makes so much more sense.

00:58:30.604 --> 00:58:33.440
Because I feel like when I'm with people, I'm with people.

00:58:33.440 --> 00:58:35.121
People are not looking at their phone.

00:58:35.121 --> 00:58:38.173
I'm not in any doubt whether they're engaged with me or not.

00:58:38.173 --> 00:58:41.897
Whereas when I'm here in the States, I'm always like, do you wanna talk with me?

00:58:41.897 --> 00:58:45.130
Are you looking for somebody more interesting to talk with?

00:58:45.130 --> 00:58:48.022
Or we are at a book event and we're just getting into it.

00:58:48.022 --> 00:58:52.336
And I'm like, okay, one hour is up and the bookstore has to close.

00:58:52.336 --> 00:58:56.369
And I'm even like, let's go over to like the, you know.

00:58:57.622 --> 00:59:01.122
the brewery that's got food and it's open for another two hours.

00:59:01.122 --> 00:59:02.961
And people don't think I'm genuine.

00:59:02.961 --> 00:59:09.862
I'm like, no, really, like, if you all came with me to eat pizza, like, I would have kept this conversation going because this is just getting good.

00:59:09.862 --> 00:59:17.002
We've all gotten a little more comfortable with each other and we're just starting to have the really engaged conversations I want to have.

00:59:17.862 --> 00:59:18.762
And it is fair.

00:59:18.762 --> 00:59:32.874
think that there is a few things I've observed living both in the UK, but then and here on Turtle Island in the US specifically, there's like, there's so much siloing between generations, right?

00:59:32.874 --> 00:59:52.214
And it's like, and of course, as somebody who still shows up, I'm often like one of the oldest people, know, I'm in my mid fifties and some organizing with people in their mid fifties, a lot of the times, or at least 10 years younger, often, you know, if not 20, some of my friends are closer to my oldest kid's age and my age, right?

00:59:52.494 --> 00:59:58.393
And which in Italy, it's not even a Big deal, but here it does feel...

00:59:59.780 --> 01:00:02.097
Yes! beautiful part of life.

01:00:02.097 --> 01:00:11.407
I'm just like, and also it's very queer to be, mean, it's very queer to be like, yeah, I will be in the gay bar until I die.

01:00:11.428 --> 01:00:12.409
You know what I mean?

01:00:12.409 --> 01:00:13.851
Like, yeah.

01:00:13.851 --> 01:00:30.310
uh I was at this leadership symposium for one of my professional association in March when we were in San Diego and one of my joys was that it was like open, so I felt a little safer and we were dancing and everybody was like way younger than me.

01:00:30.310 --> 01:00:34.070
And there was somebody who was actually even older than I am as a family therapist.

01:00:34.070 --> 01:00:36.830
And initially he was like, oh, this is so exciting.

01:00:36.830 --> 01:00:37.970
Look at all those allies.

01:00:37.970 --> 01:00:41.990
And I was like, those are all trans and queer people too.

01:00:42.186 --> 01:00:42.896
And they were like, wow.

01:00:42.896 --> 01:00:44.838
And I was like, our field is really changing.

01:00:44.838 --> 01:01:02.259
was like, we were celebrating that the American Association of Marriage and Family Therapy had released free guidelines for working with trans, non-binary and gender expansive individuals and families, which a lot of us queer and trans folks have pushed for and have a position statement.

01:01:02.260 --> 01:01:08.274
you know, because they're one of the more conservative professional association historically for therapists in the U.S.

01:01:08.274 --> 01:01:14.554
And so it is a big moment of celebration that we're here in this place, right?

01:01:14.554 --> 01:01:21.054
And like, yeah, I was like in my Crocs, you know, with my cane on the dance floor.

01:01:21.054 --> 01:01:23.434
And I was like, this is church for me.

01:01:23.434 --> 01:01:38.234
I was like, I want to be 90 and still be able occasionally, not as often as I used to be in a gay bar and like dance it out and then leave when it gets too busy because now it's my bedtime, you know, or at least my quiet time.

01:01:38.234 --> 01:01:41.214
And it is very queer and I think it's beautiful.

01:01:41.214 --> 01:01:43.769
And I think I want more of it.

01:01:43.769 --> 01:01:49.563
And sometimes I'm scared that there's going to be less of it because everybody's so fearful, right?

01:01:49.563 --> 01:01:51.413
And there can be so much.

01:01:51.714 --> 01:01:59.957
And even the culture, there's some, I don't know, it's just so interesting to see what folks in queer movements are worried about, right?

01:01:59.957 --> 01:02:00.737
There's a lot of worry.

01:02:00.737 --> 01:02:01.998
What if I say the wrong thing?

01:02:01.998 --> 01:02:05.379
Or what if I'm seeing, and I'm like, you're going to say the wrong thing.

01:02:05.379 --> 01:02:07.840
We're all going to say the wrong thing.

01:02:08.240 --> 01:02:09.721
We're humans.

01:02:09.781 --> 01:02:12.172
We're not, we cannot be perfect.

01:02:12.172 --> 01:02:14.052
And we're not the same as each other.

01:02:14.052 --> 01:02:16.152
Like, it's like, you're wrong in my right, you know?

01:02:16.152 --> 01:02:22.172
I mean, think this too, I noticed, I love what you were saying about like, people talking to people and you feel like they're waiting to talk to somebody else.

01:02:22.172 --> 01:02:33.672
There's a actual thing, like the way queers hang out in the US, I notice it compared to in European countries that I've been to, where everyone's looking around in this particular way.

01:02:33.672 --> 01:02:35.892
And part of it, I'm like, yes, let's cruise, absolutely.

01:02:35.892 --> 01:03:03.240
But there's a kind of like distractedness at a level where, and when I've been spending time in Berlin and when I go to queer, and trans faces, people like show up at this big party but they really like hang deep with the people that they came there with and then also people are not on their phones hardly, I mean they all think they're on their phones too much but compared to the US, they're barely on their phones, no one's taking pictures or anything, you have to put like a sticker over your camera when you go to like these clubs in Berlin, like you're not allowed pictures in the club which I love.

01:03:03.272 --> 01:03:05.972
And also it's great because people have sex in the club, which is amazing.

01:03:05.972 --> 01:03:09.413
And then there's, people are not really on the apps.

01:03:09.413 --> 01:03:12.554
Like the dating apps are so much less popular.

01:03:12.693 --> 01:03:15.493
And I really love the idea.

01:03:15.493 --> 01:03:23.276
I mean, dating apps are wonderful and I've met many lovers there, but like it's really cool that people have maybe a little more like skillset for hanging out.

01:03:23.276 --> 01:03:29.367
Like what I noticed in general, I noticed it also with like radicals I meet of all ages when I'm in European countries.

01:03:29.367 --> 01:03:33.198
It's like people, and I think this may be true in many places in world, people just know how to just like hang out.

01:03:33.198 --> 01:03:45.317
You know, just like, let's like go sit in the cafe for five hours as opposed to like, feel like there's a anti-social vibe, a fear of others vibe in the US where it's like, okay, you're my dear friend, but I only have 90 minutes for you, Alex.

01:03:45.317 --> 01:03:50.752
Like there's a kind of like rigid fear of the intrusiveness of other beings.

01:03:50.752 --> 01:03:53.974
And I want to like not judge anybody for having these feelings.

01:03:53.974 --> 01:04:00.419
I think we're inundated and we're overwhelmed and we're taught to be afraid and competitive with each other in lots of ways.

01:04:00.419 --> 01:04:20.995
But I am like, Is there anything we could do to support like social skill building that lets us be more accepting of other people being different from us that lets us like encounter people in our groups and communities and even if they're not our favorite, like still hang out and be chill and like make a warm space, like not be clickish, not be social climbing.

01:04:20.995 --> 01:04:31.762
Like I get a lot of complaints from young organizers I work with that they are experiencing clickishness in the groups they're in and it's undermining their ability, like their coolness hierarchy.

01:04:31.762 --> 01:04:36.307
it's undermining their ability to like make a big group like on their campus or in their town.

01:04:36.307 --> 01:04:51.403
So it's like, I'm just like, can we recognize that we are like deeply social beings and this is being taken from us by this mediation, I think especially through social media and like.

01:04:51.754 --> 01:05:16.115
we need each other, like we need to be connected online as well, of course, for many reasons, but we also really need live connections for support around health and illness and the next pandemic and the current pandemic and the time you get arrested and when we're trying to stop ICE, like we really need like live connection skills in person as part of the picture.

01:05:16.115 --> 01:05:20.228
And that is like, we're losing it fast, you know?

01:05:20.693 --> 01:05:23.834
Oh my God, I feel like could talk to you about that.

01:05:23.834 --> 01:05:28.254
I could talk about this for another five hours, but I want to be so respectful of your time.

01:05:28.254 --> 01:05:33.634
And I think that's part of the point that I feel like here, like it's almost like time is money, right?

01:05:33.634 --> 01:05:35.314
In air quotes, that kind of thing.

01:05:35.314 --> 01:05:40.574
I always feel like I'm intruding on people time, even when I'm hanging out with them and I'm enjoying it.

01:05:40.574 --> 01:05:48.370
I'm always, and part of that is like my own neurodivergence and never, especially if I'm lacking the social cues, then I'm like, Do you wanna keep hanging out?

01:05:48.370 --> 01:05:49.541
Do you not wanna keep hanging out?

01:05:49.541 --> 01:05:52.551
Maybe you do need to go back to work because we all live under capitalism.

01:05:52.551 --> 01:06:10.115
Maybe I need to go back to work because I'm way too busy trying to balance paid work with like, you know, still like mentoring and community building and all the other things, which is not an easy em juggle to do as like as having chosen kind of more the self-employed row in the last 10 years.

01:06:10.115 --> 01:06:22.515
um But I think there is a piece of that that is just also giving each other some sort of uh grace is such a loaded word because it's so Christian.

01:06:24.197 --> 01:06:32.844
But I am so interested in hearing what you think about also the necessity for a little more patience with each other.

01:06:32.844 --> 01:06:37.759
So for example, when I was hearing you talk about like the emotional awareness, right?

01:06:37.759 --> 01:06:43.434
I'm somebody who doesn't always recognize my emotion immediately and now I know why.

01:06:43.434 --> 01:06:53.440
Because, know, so, and even as a therapist, if I'm a somatic experience, a practitioner, I've done so much work on my interoception, my capacity to perceive my internal states.

01:06:53.440 --> 01:06:58.003
And still, sometimes I'm like, oh, my first emotion might be like, this is fine.

01:06:58.003 --> 01:07:02.526
And then one or two days later, I'm like, actually, can we revisit this conversation?

01:07:02.566 --> 01:07:08.988
I'm not, like, there are some part, I, you know, I have some questions or I noticed this other emotion come up.

01:07:08.988 --> 01:07:12.220
And sometimes it's mad like, but you were fine.

01:07:12.220 --> 01:07:12.560
Right.

01:07:12.560 --> 01:07:13.841
And I'm like, I know.

01:07:13.841 --> 01:07:19.936
And also, you know, I even had a partner who loved telling me all the ways in which I was so autistic in airports.

01:07:19.936 --> 01:07:25.307
And then when I did something with this thing, they were super upset, like not recognize my emotion immediately.

01:07:25.307 --> 01:07:25.789
Right.

01:07:25.789 --> 01:07:35.365
Then they would be super upset because while I was fine and now I'm bringing this up again, two days later, I was like, yes, because two days later I know better how I feel than I did two days ago.

01:07:35.365 --> 01:07:40.951
You know, and, and, And so does that make sense?

01:07:40.951 --> 01:07:43.776
And also like, yeah, yeah, go ahead.

01:07:43.776 --> 01:07:44.533
Sorry.

01:07:44.533 --> 01:07:48.827
that doesn't want us to know our feelings and that makes so many feelings unacceptable.

01:07:48.827 --> 01:07:53.412
So I think so many of us struggle to identify what's happening.

01:07:53.653 --> 01:07:54.334
Exactly.

01:07:54.334 --> 01:07:56.414
And sometimes it's also a processing thing, right?

01:07:56.414 --> 01:07:59.054
We want to move fast and not all of us move fast.

01:07:59.054 --> 01:08:14.114
Or like when we're in community with older folks, one of my beloved, like we're family and friends and elders 20 years older than me, and also living with the impact of like, you know, early HIV medication, you know, and being in their mid seventies.

01:08:14.294 --> 01:08:32.166
you know, in that experience in, you know, in community, when this started not to show up, in a way that made sense to younger people, a lot of like, you know, almost like there was this talk of like, yes, we need to honor our elders.

01:08:32.166 --> 01:08:36.945
And I'm like, there's an elder right here that you're kind of treating like shit.

01:08:36.945 --> 01:08:39.426
And then you are assuming what they mean.

01:08:39.426 --> 01:08:46.466
You have no patience around the cognitive stuff, you know, and they're very open talk about this.

01:08:46.466 --> 01:08:50.365
So feel okay sharing this because at that moment I was like, should I share this?

01:08:50.365 --> 01:08:51.726
I was like, no, this was very public.

01:08:51.726 --> 01:08:52.724
I feel okay.

01:08:52.724 --> 01:08:58.876
sharing this and, I'm seeing even with myself as I age, I'm like, yeah, my impulse control is not as good.

01:08:58.876 --> 01:09:04.958
And I am getting a little more impatient, a little like less filtered at times.

01:09:05.418 --> 01:09:10.560
And if there isn't that skill or that curiosity even, or even like, Hey, like what's going on?

01:09:10.560 --> 01:09:11.779
Like, right.

01:09:12.159 --> 01:09:15.721
I think there is an expectation that we all act the same no matter our age.

01:09:15.721 --> 01:09:16.092
Right.

01:09:16.092 --> 01:09:20.161
And I'm like, well, we're not all gonna act the same.

01:09:20.161 --> 01:09:30.985
And also like even the impatience to have kids around, know, my kids have always been around movement space and some people are like, you're bringing your kid to like this meeting or this.

01:09:30.985 --> 01:09:33.216
I'm like, yeah, what am I gonna do?

01:09:33.216 --> 01:09:35.802
You know, and does that make sense?

01:09:35.802 --> 01:09:43.475
It's like, you know, and we haven't even touched on the cool queers, like it's that issue.

01:09:43.475 --> 01:09:47.561
So, but yeah, what's the role do you think of like patience, grace, like?

01:09:47.561 --> 01:09:55.422
being a multi-generational community takes some of that and building community generally takes some of that, I think.

01:09:55.970 --> 01:09:57.832
God, yeah, I mean, I love that you're saying this.

01:09:57.832 --> 01:10:02.596
I mean, think, I mean, and also I just want to be real.

01:10:02.596 --> 01:10:04.938
People are not doing well right now.

01:10:04.938 --> 01:10:10.884
Like people are really, really struggling and it's just going to get worse for the rest of our lives.

01:10:10.884 --> 01:10:19.594
So that I think for me, a real aim of my healing is to be more flexible and accepting of others.

01:10:19.594 --> 01:10:22.726
because I want to be part of groups.

01:10:22.726 --> 01:10:25.038
one thing that happens in groups is that people flip out.

01:10:25.038 --> 01:10:26.961
People really freak out.

01:10:26.961 --> 01:10:39.030
The group dynamics are really hard or they really wanted to be seen and understood in this group and they're not, or they had somebody on a pedestal or had a breakup or whatever.

01:10:39.030 --> 01:10:42.003
And they're freaking out and they're doing...

01:10:42.395 --> 01:10:49.319
difficult things and I want to support that person instead of participating in us all talking trash about them and stigmatizing them.

01:10:49.319 --> 01:10:52.755
I don't want to let them do whatever they want to the group or to other people.

01:10:52.938 --> 01:11:00.251
And so how do we, I guess what I am interested in, also don't want, I don't want to be, I don't want to pretend I'm okay with things that I'm not, right?

01:11:00.251 --> 01:11:02.032
Cause I also have a peasing side.

01:11:02.032 --> 01:11:03.971
So I don't want to just get doormat.

01:11:03.971 --> 01:11:11.755
So my goal is to, for my own healing is to find that combination of becoming increasingly flexible yet grounded.

01:11:11.755 --> 01:11:17.622
So I can say, You know, yeah, I'm going to spend 30 minutes hearing this person rant.

01:11:17.622 --> 01:11:27.565
And also I know that 30 minutes is the limit or I'm going to know when to when to leave or when to hang up the call or how many times a week or how many times a month I can do this.

01:11:27.565 --> 01:11:33.989
But I want to be helpful to people who are difficult and who are difficult for me.

01:11:33.989 --> 01:11:44.054
Sometimes I meet someone and there is nothing wrong with them, but I want to run screaming because they remind me of my first foster mother or because I'm my body mind is having a reaction.

01:11:44.054 --> 01:11:54.253
to something that they're like and I want to like be like, Dean, like I care about you, your reaction is okay, let's think about how much of this we want to do with them.

01:11:54.253 --> 01:12:11.284
I don't need to become their boyfriend and I also don't need to get them kicked out of the group, you know, like, and so what I want for all of us is to, I think one thing that's happening with like the kind of memification of self-help, people are like, I know what I don't like and I don't have to do it.

01:12:11.284 --> 01:12:19.720
And there's kind of like a, people are getting the boundaries thing only just as far as now that I know what activates me, Alex, you have to not do it.

01:12:19.720 --> 01:12:25.283
Like a kind of like, this is a new menu of me trying to control my environment and other people.

01:12:25.283 --> 01:12:28.335
That's not what boundaries and awareness of activation is for.

01:12:28.335 --> 01:12:33.828
What it's for is I'm like, wow, I have a strong feeling when Alex says or does this thing.

01:12:34.176 --> 01:12:35.438
That's my feeling.

01:12:35.438 --> 01:12:37.019
I can make requests of Alex.

01:12:37.019 --> 01:12:38.756
They can say yes or no.

01:12:38.756 --> 01:12:47.492
I can think about what works for me in the relationship if Alex isn't able to take my request or isn't able right now or not as much as I want.

01:12:47.492 --> 01:12:51.096
But don't just get to tell you what to do because I found out that I've got a trigger.

01:12:51.096 --> 01:12:53.479
uh All of this.

01:12:53.694 --> 01:12:56.815
Oh, I so agree.

01:12:56.815 --> 01:13:02.189
And then to be able to know that we are that person for other people, right?

01:13:02.189 --> 01:13:05.860
Because it's like, I know I will be a difficult person for somebody else.

01:13:05.860 --> 01:13:10.744
I know that the way I am is going to be hard for other people, is going to be triggering.

01:13:10.744 --> 01:13:17.127
And so can I offer, like, can I offer myself that kindness, can I offer other people that kindness, right?

01:13:17.127 --> 01:13:22.634
And curiosity and gentleness, because it's like sometimes I will, I mean, I agree.

01:13:22.634 --> 01:13:32.561
I'm a thousand percent with everything you said and don't even get me started on the weaponization of boundaries ah or the confusing safety for comfort.

01:13:32.561 --> 01:13:37.685
And cause that's all we could be here for the next six hours, truly.

01:13:37.685 --> 01:13:48.152
um But there is this piece also that's like the self protection, which I totally understand comes from trauma and I've been there and how it keeps us from being relational.

01:13:48.152 --> 01:13:50.485
And I'm worried about that too, cause I agree.

01:13:50.485 --> 01:13:53.145
I think things are only going to get harder.

01:13:53.666 --> 01:13:55.086
I mean, we're seeing it.

01:13:55.086 --> 01:14:05.605
It's like, don't even, if I talk about it right now, I think I'm going to cry about not the things that have been going on all through colonization.

01:14:05.605 --> 01:14:08.346
And there are some things that are happening in this moment that are hard.

01:14:08.346 --> 01:14:10.605
It's a both end for me.

01:14:11.326 --> 01:14:31.831
And how do we find this way of being with each other that is not so treating folks as disposable or, you know, uh Susan Raffo once said in a meeting when we were out together, like the differentiation between community of convenience and community of need, right?

01:14:31.831 --> 01:14:39.869
And for me, I feel like my trans and queer communities and my geographical community where I live is a community of need, not a community of convenience.

01:14:39.869 --> 01:14:41.576
don't, you know, I don't.

01:14:41.576 --> 01:14:51.113
want to feel disposable and I don't want to see other people as disposable, even when it's really hard, even when maybe I walk into a neighbor's house and there's a MAGA calendar.

01:14:51.274 --> 01:14:53.496
And what do I do in that moment?

01:14:53.496 --> 01:14:58.960
Do I just storm out and be like, ah, you've stopped being a human for me, right?

01:14:58.960 --> 01:15:06.865
Or do I take a deep breath and like, OK, this is information you're finding out about this person, neighbor, person in your community.

01:15:06.994 --> 01:15:12.199
And let's just be with the information and figure out what we want to do with this information.

01:15:12.199 --> 01:15:34.484
uh You know, and sell treat this person as a human, even in this moment where quite frankly, it's incredibly hard as a trans person to be in that situation, which I've been to because it's like, you know, Duluth is beautiful and it's still a city and it's like north enough that there is more also conservative folks than in...

01:15:34.484 --> 01:15:37.255
You know, Minneapolis, for example, it's a both end.

01:15:37.255 --> 01:15:39.454
know, oh I don't know.

01:15:39.454 --> 01:15:43.997
I hope I'm making sense, but it's yes, we need all those skills.

01:15:43.997 --> 01:15:53.900
oh if we haven't even got, I wanted to talk to you about the gender side of relational labor and we haven't even got there and talking about boundaries.

01:15:53.900 --> 01:15:56.420
want to respect our time boundary.

01:15:56.420 --> 01:16:02.122
Also, because it's kind of late, I think where you are right now, but maybe we can have a...

01:16:02.122 --> 01:16:06.594
Part two where we talk about relationships and gender because I would...

01:16:07.217 --> 01:16:10.179
Okay, okay.

01:16:10.179 --> 01:16:22.936
how do I not already know you is also, I feel like we have been living in the same ideas for decades and yeah, we must know a hundred people in common.

01:16:22.936 --> 01:16:23.850
Yeah, anyway.

01:16:23.850 --> 01:16:29.082
I know, I was having the moment, was like, oh, I bet there were like two degrees of separation somewhere.

01:16:29.345 --> 01:16:30.587
Absolutely, yes.

01:16:30.587 --> 01:16:32.012
Oh, I'm so glad.

01:16:32.012 --> 01:16:33.297
I feel the same.

01:16:33.297 --> 01:16:35.739
at this age to still meet.

01:16:35.739 --> 01:16:41.644
There's still other radical queers obsessed with the same things as me who I haven't even met yet.

01:16:41.644 --> 01:16:49.730
That's like, cause you know, in our time there was a like sometimes a real feeling of loneliness about some of these identities and experiences.

01:16:49.730 --> 01:16:51.631
So yeah, it's very sweet.

01:16:51.862 --> 01:16:53.521
Oh, a hundred percent.

01:16:53.521 --> 01:17:08.822
And it is a genuine invitation to like, I definitely want to have that part two conversation about, you know, relationship and gender and care labor as gender care, as gendered labor.

01:17:09.042 --> 01:17:15.202
But I'm going to like rein my enthusiasm in and remember that it's kind of late in the evening where you are.

01:17:15.202 --> 01:17:19.782
And instead kind of transition us a little bit towards ending this episode.

01:17:19.782 --> 01:17:20.886
But, and it was so much.

01:17:20.886 --> 01:17:21.865
I feel the same.

01:17:21.865 --> 01:17:23.485
like, how have we never met?

01:17:23.485 --> 01:17:26.105
I was like, we have so many values in common.

01:17:27.105 --> 01:17:49.654
So one of the questions I have to rein my brain in because literally I want to ask 500 other questions, but one of the questions I've been asking all of my like, guests, especially like trans folks at the moment is how are you finding comfort or joy or nourishment, especially right now?

01:17:49.654 --> 01:17:52.974
I think it just feels really important to share with each other.

01:17:53.534 --> 01:18:01.774
how are we finding, I don't know, the fuel for one of a better world to keep going right now.

01:18:01.774 --> 01:18:12.238
through that kind of comfort, connection, pleasure, whatever is bringing you a sense of support and joy, if that makes sense.

01:18:13.735 --> 01:18:15.092
and nourishment.

01:18:19.958 --> 01:18:26.154
You know, I really rely heavily on a silent meditation practice because...

01:18:26.154 --> 01:18:34.655
ah It's so hard to integrate everything that's happening.

01:18:35.257 --> 01:18:38.287
And there's such an onslaught of information.

01:18:38.287 --> 01:18:50.775
And sometimes I feel myself over consuming and information about what's going on that affects people I love and There's so little time to digest it.

01:18:50.775 --> 01:18:51.873
And I think.

01:18:56.690 --> 01:19:00.382
We're in this important month in the Jewish calendar right now called Elul.

01:19:00.382 --> 01:19:10.701
And it's like the month before the high holidays where you sort of spiritually gather yourself to assess the year and make repair with people and stuff.

01:19:11.061 --> 01:19:15.916
And there's like a particular text that I read every day during Elul.

01:19:15.916 --> 01:19:27.041
And it has this idea in it that no matter how much no matter how difficult things are, there's a possibility of return.

01:19:27.041 --> 01:19:47.556
And for me, that connects to my meditation practice in this idea that in silent meditation, what I'm doing is my mind goes off in worries and then I return to the breath, if that's what I'm focusing on, or I start to think about what I should be doing later, or I start to worry about this thing in the past, or I start to remember something or want something, and I return.

01:19:47.556 --> 01:19:50.967
And there's this very simple thing like...

01:19:52.542 --> 01:19:54.112
returning to now.

01:19:54.114 --> 01:19:55.475
This is how it is now.

01:19:55.475 --> 01:19:57.077
I'm sitting in a chair.

01:19:57.077 --> 01:19:58.778
I'm talking to Alex.

01:19:58.878 --> 01:20:00.355
It's a little bit too warm.

01:20:00.355 --> 01:20:03.744
I can feel my feet on the ground, whatever it is, you know?

01:20:03.744 --> 01:20:14.771
Like, I don't know, just it's, things are super bad and they're getting so much worse and I have a very strong view of this and.

01:20:14.771 --> 01:20:15.707
Mm-hmm.

01:20:17.213 --> 01:20:18.333
It's amazing to be alive.

01:20:18.333 --> 01:20:19.445
It's amazing to be breathing.

01:20:19.445 --> 01:20:21.105
It's amazing to be connected to others.

01:20:21.105 --> 01:20:26.788
It's amazing to find work you want to do towards our liberation, even though none of us know how it's going to turn out.

01:20:26.788 --> 01:20:34.539
It's like, for me, there's something in the return of just like, at a basic level, for now, this is how it is.

01:20:34.539 --> 01:20:35.351
How is it?

01:20:35.351 --> 01:20:36.871
I can, I'm breathing.

01:20:37.030 --> 01:20:37.511
I don't know.

01:20:37.511 --> 01:20:39.692
That's, that's where I'm at right now.

01:20:40.413 --> 01:20:54.001
No, I love that it's beautiful and I really resonate with that as somebody who practices a lot of being here, you know, and holding both, like the reality of how bad things are, which I agree.

01:20:54.001 --> 01:21:09.546
um And right now here I am having the most amazing conversation, you know, connecting with somebody who has such similar values and there is joy in this moment and I can feel both the joy and the heartbreak and the fear.

01:21:09.546 --> 01:21:13.686
and they're all present and that's okay.

01:21:13.726 --> 01:21:14.237
Right.

01:21:14.237 --> 01:21:15.878
So I love that you shared that.

01:21:15.878 --> 01:21:17.068
Thank you.

01:21:17.668 --> 01:21:25.911
And the last question that I always ask all my guests is, is there anything we haven't talked about that you were really hoping we would talk about?

01:21:25.911 --> 01:21:37.864
Which of course we could always do in a different episode, but anything we haven't talked about that or anything that you really want to reinforce or communicate to the listeners or watchers if people are watching.

01:21:39.123 --> 01:21:41.914
I love that we just let it go where it was gonna go.

01:21:41.914 --> 01:21:43.405
It's perfect, you know?

01:21:43.405 --> 01:21:47.047
And I do think, I hope we'll have many more conversations over the course of our lives.

01:21:47.047 --> 01:21:57.131
I'm really excited about reading your book and really grateful to you for reading mine and for asking me to have this conversation and for your openness about your own.

01:21:57.131 --> 01:22:16.391
um like all the, like you just shared so many stories and that illustrated for me what you're trying to practice and it's really a gift and I'm grateful to you for making a podcast and I know it's not easy and like I bet it's really supporting a lot of people's wellbeing, so thank you.

01:22:17.525 --> 01:22:18.115
Thank you.

01:22:18.115 --> 01:22:21.748
Well, I have so much gratitude for this conversation.

01:22:21.826 --> 01:22:24.530
I love it when the conversation just flows.

01:22:24.530 --> 01:22:31.907
And so thank you for being willing to just like to truly have a conversation and be relational as we talk about relationships.

01:22:31.907 --> 01:22:36.140
So I so, so appreciate all the places we've gone.

01:22:36.340 --> 01:22:41.835
And for you dear Gender Stories listeners, viewers, I should say viewers rather than watchers.

01:22:41.835 --> 01:22:43.902
That's a much better word than English.

01:22:43.902 --> 01:23:00.172
So dear Gender Stories, listeners and viewers, I hope that you can find ways to take care of yourselves and take care of each other and really build relationship with intentionality so that we can all figure this thing called life together in some way, or form.

01:23:00.172 --> 01:23:01.774
And until next time.