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Hello and welcome to another episode of Gender Stories.

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I know I'm always excited, elated, but what can I say?

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I know a lot of cool people and I've got to know a lot of cool people through the podcast.

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feel so incredibly privileged.

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And this season I'm really focusing on trans, non-binary and gender-expansive folks oh because I think we need to in the current climate.

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I still love interviewing cis folks and cis folks are always welcome.

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on the podcast, but I'm so excited that I get to highlight some wonderful trans folks.

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And today you get to know more about Tristan Katz, who is a business consultant, conscious marketing strategy, and equity inclusion facilitator with a lifelong commitment to human rights and justice.

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Tristan supports individuals and organizations in aligning their values with their messaging through an intersectional anti-oppression lens.

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Tristan's work centers authenticity, relationship, and accessibility.

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They've collaborated with authors, educators, and cultural leaders, as well as organizations like Stamford University, HUBspot, Portland Public Schools, and Porto Portland.

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Currently, Tristan serves as COO and Director of Programming at fruition Growth Network.

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And he's also longtime yoga student, yoga journal game changer, and former board member of Accessible Yoga.

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At the core of everything Tristan offers is the belief The marketing can be a tool for connection, truth telling and cultural change, not just sales.

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And if you want to find out more about Tristan's work, all the links are in the usual place in the episode description, or if you're watching this on YouTube, they're going to be also in the episode description, but on YouTube.

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I, full disclosure, I've been working with Tristan for what?

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Like a year and a half now, two years, I don't even know, maybe a year and a half.

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And, they have like absolutely rocked my world when it comes to marketing and business and Brooke Monaghan as well, who runs some of the programming with Tristan.

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You have both really changed the way I relate to the idea of selling in air quotes, which, know, if you're self-employed, you kind of have to sell your services or as an author, your books, all the things, right?

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We still live under capitalism.

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But you really change the way I look at those things in ways that I could never have imagined.

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So I have so much gratitude.

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ah So welcome, Tristan.

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Alex, thank you for having me.

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It's such an honor to be here with you.

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It's so fun.

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I'm so excited about this conversation.

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ah So let's talk about conscious marketing, right?

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Because in a way, when we say conscious marketing, it can sound a little bit like so many buzzwords out there.

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And I don't want to be too shady, but I feel like nowadays everybody is an intersectional feminist, which is also problematic.

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That's a whole other conversation, right?

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For so many reasons, especially with white folks.

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you know, everybody is, you know, decolonizing everybody.

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again, not trying to be shady, but it can be really hard to discern what's a password and what's an authentic practice or where the values are.

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So when you say conscious marketing, what do you mean in your work?

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such a good intro to this conversation because I'm even thinking right now, I'm like, so many people might even think that conscious and marketing are directly opposed, right?

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um I guess I feel like, ah I guess I'll start by saying that the way I learned how to market and how to promote and how to grow an audience and grow your work as a small business or entrepreneur was through on the job experience, growing my father's business and his business.

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And this was, um I started working with him in 2007 and he was centering his work as an educator, writer and carpenter on teaching.

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carpenters and contractors knew tools and techniques in the trade.

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And what we found was he could market products and materials by using them in the educational environment.

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Like if he could just have a deal with this sponsor, then he could use their hammer and teach about like why this hammer is special, you know, for example.

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And so the line became marketing through education.

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Hmm.

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And the whole premise of his business was we are going to market your products, but we're going to do it in a way that is actually in aligned with serving the greater good.

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You're going to have less recalls on your products.

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People are going to be more prepared to use them the right way.

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You know, we're talking about building homes and like waterproofing and stuff that like, you don't want to get wrong and your company doesn't want people out there getting it wrong.

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So this was all the environment that I learned.

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how to market in.

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And in that environment, I mean, and don't get me wrong at the time in 2007, and then when it really started, the business started evolving was probably in like 2012, 2015, around then, now we're on social media and I still didn't understand the connection to what I'll just call is like my other half of my life.

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Like I had like all this academic background in studying human rights and studying social movements and studying really US imperialism around the globe and trying to understand myself within it, but not seeing that my professional skill set was something that was going to call me into.

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And so Eventually I saw very quickly like, we're the nature of marketing is changing with the internet.

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The nature of marketing is changing with social media.

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It's now like, it's, it's more clear when we're being sold to and it's happening in an environment where we're also looking for distraction, entertainment.

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mean, the same thing was happening on television and still is with commercials, right?

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But we've also become attuned to those.

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And I imagine a lot of us aren't being sold based on commercials.

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Like maybe we were back in the day when commercials were really big deal, right?

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So now that we're here and it's all happening on our phones or on our computers, which we're on more and more and more, I just see more and more and more, especially with the evolving human experience and the increasing violent moment that we're in.

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that we can't separate the two.

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And so to me, conscious marketing is understanding, like you said, we have to pay our bills because we live in capitalism.

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I want to pay my bills and make meaningful change in the world.

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That doesn't start with the minute I get on the Zoom call.

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It starts with the minute I take up space talking about my work.

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And if I'm not doing that in a way that is understanding the nature of the human experience, the collective trauma we're witnessing, experiencing, the grief, the chaos, the violence, the authoritarianism.

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If I'm not understanding that, then I can't actually reach people.

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And I'm more likely to further all the things that are leading us away from one another and from ourselves, right?

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And I talk about this all the time through the gender lens of like, can we please use more...

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up-to-date language around gender in our marketing, or how about not even use gender language at all in our marketing?

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Because I don't think we need it.

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And I think when we are relying on these like go-to quote unquote tips and tricks and niching and, you know, getting the tagline right, it's, we're more likely to just keep going in urgency and confusion and perpetuating all these things that are causing so many of us.

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real pain, oppression, marginalization, et cetera.

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So how can we do both in this space?

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Move forward socially in the fight for human rights and social justice and pay ourselves and also do it in a way that's accessible so that we're sustaining ourselves while we're also supporting other people.

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Absolutely.

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And I'm even thinking about one of the principles from disability justice and especially at the moment, every time I say disability justice, I think about Patti Burns because she died pretty recently in the last few months.

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And so I just have so much gratitude for her work and the work of Sins Invalid and of course the work of so many other disability justice activists alongside Patti.

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But I'm thinking about the sustainability piece, especially as an aging disabled person, right?

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It's like for Me marketing some of my content is also about sustainability on my services, right?

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Like if I'm going to show up in my life or in community, I need to some resources while we live under capitalism because we don't yet have the network of care that we need.

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So it's like that both and.

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And you do work with a lot of minoritized uh providers, mostly in the wellness space, which is also an interesting space to be in.

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uh because it has been and it continues to be so harmful.

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So I sit like, go, go for it.

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I see it.

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You've got things to say.

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oh seriously.

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I mean, it's just so interesting because, you know, I started practicing yoga in 2000.

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I was 20 years old and it was in California and I didn't know my gender or sexuality really at the time.

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so, and you know, I'm a small bodied, somewhat flexible white person who was moving through the world at the time as a woman.

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I'm not successfully in time inside, but I was benefiting in some way from the heteronormative and the cis normative environment of yoga in the United States, in California, in the two thousands, right?

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Um, and the more I start, it's so interesting how like the practices of yoga led me into finally hearing my body, which took, I mean, that was 2000 when I started.

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It was 2018, by the time I was able to hear something in my body around my gender.

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So it took me 18 years of practice and all kinds of other life experiences, of course, to recognize that, um yes, this was an environment that was giving me great healing, the wellness space, quote unquote.

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Um, and there were lots of ways in which I was welcomed and affirmed and normalized and included and, and belonged, right.

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and I always felt the unbelonging.

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I always felt something wasn't right.

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And, and that I couldn't just rest easy in those spaces.

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And when I started advocating for change in yoga spaces prior to the COVID 2020 pandemic, I was met with a lot of confusion and pushback.

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And what I found was a lot of spiritual bypassing and clinging to the narrative that we are all one and that these spaces aren't meant for us to um bring in politics or some garbage, you know?

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And yeah.

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that rhetoric absolutely.

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m And then I found Michelle Cassandra Johnson's work.

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Yeah.

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uh We should explain that in the coaching group that Tristan and Brooke read whenever Tristan names Michelle Cassandra Johnson, we will take a drink of water ah because Michelle is amazing and Michelle's work is amazing.

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So anyway, you found Michelle.

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I found Michelle, it was 2018, it was around the same time that I was pulling on the thread of my body's messaging around pronouns in particular in gendered language.

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I was pulling on that thread and I found her first book, Skill in Action.

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And it's funny, I didn't know it at the time of course, but I did know that that book was clicking things for me in a whole new way.

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It was the first time, it's so interesting too, after decades of being in...

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traditional Western academic environments, it was the first time that somebody was giving me the language of systemic racism and like really breaking it down, like really breaking down white supremacy culture and how it's playing out in general and in yoga.

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And I was blown away and just in line with how long, I mean, I've always been like this when I learn about more frameworks or understanding particularly relating to human rights.

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I want more.

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I want to go deeper.

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And so I went so deep on studying with Michelle and studying her work and getting to know her.

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And she's been, I mean, she's a friend and she's a colleague and she's a mentor.

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She's an incredible teacher.

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And what I learned is that I had to bring the advocacy work I wanted to do in yoga and wellness into the marketing, right?

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Back through, to like marketing through education.

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If I could reach people through my marketing, it would be so much bigger than just selling them a workshop registration because I could call people into a conversation, right, about what we're doing in a yoga space and about what we could be doing, for example.

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And so I started seeing that happening in my marketing through, suddenly it was like, oh If we can't separate this from yoga, we can't separate this from marketing, we can't separate it anywhere.

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How do I demonstrate that this is the kind of work I want to be doing?

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You know, and it was, oh, I talk about it on social media and, here we are, you know, and I, and yes, to your point, it is not easy work.

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and, uh, fortunately I find that a lot of people really want to be having these conversations right now.

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and they're the ones who are coming to me.

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In general, I'm not interacting with people who are digging their heels in or arguing with me about human rights.

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And it's probably because I'm very clear that I'm not interested in arguing about it.

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If you work with me, this is what we're gonna talk about.

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And I'm just getting clearer on that as time goes on.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And you attract some amazing people.

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mean, the coaching group that you and Brooke ran is like, I think I missed like one maybe because, you know, I really had to, but it's something, it's a space that is so important, um, both because of you and Brooke, but also because of the people you bring together.

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Right.

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I think it's a lot of people who have a message that could really shift things culturally.

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Right.

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And You know, the marketing is not just because we want to make like six figures or we want to like make a million dollar, like, we want like some easy solution, which is most likely a scam anyway.

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Um, but it's because we want to understand how can we show up in integrity while also taking care of ourselves so that we can keep showing up in integrity to ourselves and our community.

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Cause you know, when I was working.

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80 hours a week in service of academia that was not serving me or my communities, right?

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Personally, that's how I felt.

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And I know other people might have different experiences.

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And so love having found a space where this is really taken seriously.

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I mean, so much so that, you know.

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You are very outspoken.

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mean, you have a free Palestine uh poster right behind you right now for the folks who are listening.

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So I'm assuming it's okay to talk about that.

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Like you're very open about being an anti-Zionist Jewish person.

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and you know, and you've been very open about that from very early on.

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It wasn't like, now I really have to say something because everybody else is saying something.

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You are very clear from the beginning and you've done your own personal work around that.

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Because that's another piece, like I think that there is a piece of personal work, like how we need to do our personal internal work if we are to truly show up with integrity in marketing.

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Can you say a Because at least that's how I see your work.

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Yeah, mean, isn't integrity is a self and other thing, right?

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It like, oh, yeah, it's not, it's not individual and it's not solely collective.

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It's both, right?

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And I feel like I have to have integrity to myself, not first or most, but it is, you know, it's an ex, it's both.

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I, anytime.

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I'm shown something that I don't understand or don't yet know.

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I want to understand more.

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And to me, that's a big part of how I keep practicing.

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Right.

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Um, and I feel like there's a lot of talk in dominant marketing conversation that is emphasizing, like show your results.

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Yes.

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maybe not show your work, right?

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Like here's the blueprint, just buy the blueprint, buy the template and you too can do this thing that I did.

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Or, you know, my clients are making six figures, you too can make six figures or, you know, I don't, and it is, it's a lot of, it feels like false promises.

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Yeah, go ahead.

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I mean, most of the time it probably is quite frankly, because all the sides of like make, you know, $10,000 a month working for this, for hours a week or something.

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I'm like, come on, like...

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The only people who can make that kind of money working for hours a week are people with intergenerational wealth or CEOs of like large companies.

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And that's part of the lies though, right?

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It's like, it's what keeps us stack also in white supremacy, right?

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It's like you too could be one of the 1 % and could be rich if you just crack the secret formula or the code, right?

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And it gets ingrained because even I was like, must be, you know, I had my moments of I must be something wrong, right?

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Because it's like, My platform is not as big as some of my books, like gender traumas are like two awards, but it's not covered by pretty much any press.

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It's only sold like a few hundred copies, but everybody who's read it loves it by and large.

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And so I'm like, I must be doing something wrong, right?

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But actually what has been really amazing working with you and Brooke and also being in a community of people.

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You can have incredible content.

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You can also have a really large platform on social media and still not see those results in air quotes because it's much more complicated than that.

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It's so much more complicated and I hear so many people who are like so high integrity and like really care about their work and have a body of work that they have grown over the years.

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And they're like, what if I must be doing something wrong because my Instagram audience is this or my newsletter audience is this, or I only get this many clicks when I send out a newsletter.

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And I just, I want us to focus on not to say that those feelings aren't something to pay attention to and dig into.

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What I am thinking though is the fact that it's easy to get lost in these numbers and the metrics and the idea that we're doing something wrong if it doesn't look a certain way.

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And I keep thinking like, why did we start working for ourselves to begin with?

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Right?

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It's to free ourselves from the confines of how we've been taught it's supposed to be done.

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And I want to figure out how I can work for myself and not work as my identity.

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uh And I know that I can only do that if I'm financially sustainable because when I am in fear, financial fear, work becomes my whole life for understandable reasons, right?

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So if I can find a way to sustain myself and yeah, it's not gonna be through just reaching 10.

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thousand followers on Instagram if we can't back that up with like an actual business, right?

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And that's the other thing that I think is so interesting is this like influencer culture and the way effective content can mask the fact that there is no business or that people don't really know how to position themselves in the work they do.

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They only know how to create content.

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Like there's just, there's so much mess out there.

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And then I think about to your point how It's the narratives of who's winning and how to win as if that's a thing are white dominated and they're cis dominated and they're hetero dominated and they're able list and the list goes on and those of us who are experiencing marginalization or, you know, social othering em are then internalizing even further that we're getting it wrong.

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Exactly.

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And that's the piece about individual and relational integrity, right?

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Because it's like, um there's something there.

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Bear with me listeners, because it might take me a minute to get there.

00:24:59.294 --> 00:25:12.507
uh But there's something there about how even people who supposedly seem to have those social justice values will still say things that perpetuate oppression.

00:25:12.626 --> 00:25:19.186
So I've heard this so many times from therapists and somatic practitioners, you have to charge what you're worth.

00:25:19.186 --> 00:25:22.386
And I was like, my worth is not described by what I charge.

00:25:22.386 --> 00:25:28.047
However, what I've learned in my work with you is I need to charge what is sustainable.

00:25:28.047 --> 00:25:35.567
So that can do the work that makes me feel whole and compensated, which a lot of the time is work that's free or low cost for my community.

00:25:35.567 --> 00:25:37.214
But I can't do the work.

00:25:37.214 --> 00:25:39.105
Because I don't have intergenerational wealth.

00:25:39.105 --> 00:25:41.855
I have some financial stability.

00:25:41.855 --> 00:25:47.721
I've brought myself firmly into some level of questionable middle class as an immigrant.

00:25:47.721 --> 00:25:53.164
And I say questionable because I feel it could be taken away at any moment in a lot of different ways.

00:25:53.286 --> 00:25:57.989
And so to do that, I need to work that's sustainable.

00:25:57.989 --> 00:26:05.840
But that doesn't mean that if I'm seeing somebody for free or if I'm charging less, I'm worth less in airport.

00:26:05.840 --> 00:26:06.685
Right?

00:26:06.685 --> 00:26:08.868
And it's just, you know what I mean?

00:26:08.868 --> 00:26:15.186
And there's just something there about how people can have the right values in their quote.

00:26:15.186 --> 00:26:17.549
And we have done it, we can all do it.

00:26:17.549 --> 00:26:22.695
Like we internalize this bullshit and we keep regurgitating it to each other.

00:26:22.695 --> 00:26:25.351
And then it feels like personal failure, right?

00:26:25.351 --> 00:26:28.312
I must be doing something wrong if I'm not making enough money.

00:26:28.312 --> 00:26:31.834
I must be doing something wrong if my master just not getting out there.

00:26:31.834 --> 00:26:35.365
I must be doing something wrong if my book is not in New York Times bestseller.

00:26:35.365 --> 00:26:41.037
Don't even get me started on the con that is like the old publishing industry, New York Times reviews.

00:26:41.037 --> 00:26:42.967
Like there's so much to be said about that.

00:26:42.967 --> 00:26:45.229
And like, you know what I mean though?

00:26:45.229 --> 00:26:45.531
Like.

00:26:45.531 --> 00:26:57.028
because also Alex, when I think about, okay, so I'm following someone right now on Instagram who is just got onto the New York Times bestseller list the same frickin week that their book came out.

00:26:57.028 --> 00:26:58.338
Good for them, you know?

00:26:58.338 --> 00:27:06.463
Good for them! And, man, did I watch them and they're still hustling, right?

00:27:06.463 --> 00:27:09.187
Like book tour, book tour, book gig, book gig.

00:27:09.187 --> 00:27:11.306
I'm even thinking about Dean Spade.

00:27:11.306 --> 00:27:13.548
Not on the bestseller list, but should be.

00:27:13.548 --> 00:27:17.475
uh oh everywhere, right?

00:27:17.475 --> 00:27:23.789
Like every podcast, every week there's a new podcast, every week there's a new virtual event or an in-person event.

00:27:23.789 --> 00:27:29.473
Like Dean is working so hard to spread awareness of that new book and good for Dean.

00:27:30.194 --> 00:27:41.783
We don't all have it in us to travel or to schedule, you know, this many podcast interviews and to put the kind of like marketing and promotional.

00:27:41.971 --> 00:27:48.617
time and energy and labor to make sure that the book has a big audience.

00:27:48.617 --> 00:27:51.632
it's like the work still needs to reach people.

00:27:51.632 --> 00:27:54.173
So we do it in the ways that we can.

00:27:54.173 --> 00:27:57.046
And it doesn't this comparison.

00:27:57.046 --> 00:28:00.680
It's so hard under capitalism because the narrative is easy.

00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:04.042
It's easy to think, well, Dean must be doing great financially.

00:28:04.042 --> 00:28:05.153
Right.

00:28:06.672 --> 00:28:07.446
No.

00:28:07.446 --> 00:28:11.547
people don't understand, it's like so many of those things, it's a labor of love.

00:28:11.547 --> 00:28:13.646
Like I don't monetize gender stories.

00:28:13.646 --> 00:28:20.787
I actually spend money on the podcast because I need a recording platform and I need the disseminating platform, right?

00:28:21.386 --> 00:28:32.146
And book events are not paid by a large, mean, very rarely, unless maybe, maybe if you do something with higher education and even then it's like, you know, maybe you break even.

00:28:32.146 --> 00:28:36.346
But like in bookstores, like it's, It's a symbiotic relationship, right?

00:28:36.346 --> 00:28:44.011
Like your travel is not paid usually, book events are not paid, podcast appearances are not paid, media appearances are not paid.

00:28:44.011 --> 00:28:49.955
And when you create content, like I love creating content for the love of creating content.

00:28:49.955 --> 00:28:54.490
Actually, that's one of the things I really got to like, I'm like, I'm an educator at heart.

00:28:54.490 --> 00:29:01.944
And I've really been disillusioned by um the way the education, especially in the so-called United States is organized.

00:29:01.944 --> 00:29:05.897
And so I want to get information out to in a way that's accessible.

00:29:05.897 --> 00:29:07.938
That's what drives me, right?

00:29:08.418 --> 00:29:10.149
And that is all free labor.

00:29:10.149 --> 00:29:18.884
It takes time, it takes energy, and it's like physical, emotional, cognitive labor, not to speak then about the social stuff that can come at you.

00:29:18.884 --> 00:29:23.527
The risk of disability, the risk of doxing for minoritized people in this moment, right?

00:29:23.527 --> 00:29:24.856
The risk of being targeted.

00:29:24.856 --> 00:29:27.688
And so it's like none of those things are simple.

00:29:27.688 --> 00:29:35.742
And that's what I love about your work is like, it's not like, you know, so much traditional marketing, let's call it, our quotes.

00:29:35.742 --> 00:29:42.745
uh really capitalizes on dominant oppressive values, like create a sense of scarcity.

00:29:42.745 --> 00:29:47.288
There's only 50 seats left in this workshop, right?

00:29:47.888 --> 00:29:49.628
I mean, I fall into that too, right?

00:29:49.628 --> 00:29:53.250
I should say registration is limited for in-person events.

00:29:53.250 --> 00:29:57.512
I was like, well, registration is always limited for in-person events because you have a capacity issue.

00:29:57.512 --> 00:29:58.993
Like that's just reality.

00:29:58.993 --> 00:30:17.287
uh But like traditional marketing encourages like this sense of scarcity, fear of out, try FOMO, and comparing our insights to other people's outsides, which social media definitely has a role in that, I think.

00:30:17.287 --> 00:30:22.330
it leverages our fear and what you are trying to do is something different.

00:30:22.330 --> 00:30:26.815
You are encouraging people to show up authentically and build relationship.

00:30:26.815 --> 00:30:28.456
At least that's how I feel, right?

00:30:28.456 --> 00:30:30.470
Like so much of your work.

00:30:30.470 --> 00:30:34.502
I think our marketing is so much bigger than just the transaction.

00:30:34.502 --> 00:30:42.613
think traditional marketing conversations are entirely focused on the transaction and I want to focus on something bigger.

00:30:42.613 --> 00:30:52.384
I know the transaction will come if I keep showing up in like honor of myself and the larger why of my work.

00:30:52.384 --> 00:31:06.345
Like if I can keep connecting to the larger why of my work, then I can let go of like, Even when I market a workshop online and I, like I am right now, I feel like I'm putting in so much energy.

00:31:06.345 --> 00:31:13.538
If I don't get people signed up, this is going to be such a failure because I will have spent all this time sharing all this marketing content.

00:31:13.538 --> 00:31:17.151
And if nobody comes in, it's such a, no, what if it's not a failure?

00:31:17.151 --> 00:31:24.829
What if me talking about my work over and over and over again in different ways is actually part of the point?

00:31:24.829 --> 00:31:38.399
Whether anybody ever comes to pay for this particular training, I, the work is to keep putting myself out there, not in a way that is misattuned or oblivious or bypassing.

00:31:38.399 --> 00:31:46.368
Um, but in a way that is understanding what we're experiencing, what people might benefit from hearing and what my why is, right?

00:31:46.368 --> 00:31:50.610
Because it is, it's about the relationship and the bigger purpose.

00:31:50.610 --> 00:31:54.192
And if I can keep my eye on that.

00:31:54.577 --> 00:32:01.008
and then do the backend work to like be skillful with my prices, be skillful with my offerings, you know?

00:32:01.008 --> 00:32:15.026
Then I think I can trust that I'll reach my bottom line financially and it won't, I mean, there's so many times where I've gotten messages from people that are like, you don't have a lead magnet or a sales funnel?

00:32:15.026 --> 00:32:16.978
And I'm like, no, my body told me no.

00:32:16.978 --> 00:32:21.617
My body said no, that felt icky and I don't wanna do it and so I didn't.

00:32:21.617 --> 00:32:22.386
Yep.

00:32:22.386 --> 00:32:26.819
And that's the kind of marketing I want to be in is like, you don't want to be on Instagram?

00:32:26.819 --> 00:32:27.430
Great.

00:32:27.430 --> 00:32:31.873
Let's find out another place for you to get in front of new eyes because they are out there.

00:32:31.873 --> 00:32:36.705
You don't have to sell your soul in order to pay your bills.

00:32:36.705 --> 00:32:41.127
And I feel like I was told that I did and I can't.

00:32:41.158 --> 00:32:43.081
Absolutely, oh absolutely.

00:32:43.081 --> 00:32:44.772
mean, honestly.

00:32:44.772 --> 00:32:52.915
Even in academia, which that is a place where it shouldn't happen, as a researcher, like I was told, why do you still show up in community?

00:32:52.915 --> 00:32:58.077
You've built enough trust with community members, you know, and you're working so much.

00:32:58.077 --> 00:33:05.771
And I was like, I'm not showing up in community as a tool to get research participants or build relationships.

00:33:05.771 --> 00:33:08.893
I'm showing up in community because I'm part of the community.

00:33:08.893 --> 00:33:11.073
You know, I'm not as, I'm not separate.

00:33:11.073 --> 00:33:22.903
I was like, what the actual, you know, and And that was, for me, that was such a breakup moment, you know, like in any relationship, including relationship with our job.

00:33:23.243 --> 00:33:26.286
That was such a big crack that I didn't come back from it.

00:33:26.286 --> 00:33:32.528
You know, I left academia 10 years ago because I was like, oh, this is how a lot of researchers think.

00:33:32.528 --> 00:33:43.953
And then on top of that, really hearing also that real like research that we know would make real change, like systemic interventions, like, you know, I used to be in HIV research.

00:33:43.953 --> 00:33:47.126
You know what would be great for HIV research and trans folks?

00:33:47.126 --> 00:33:52.712
Housing, appropriate employment, less discrimination in healthcare.

00:33:52.712 --> 00:33:55.345
But that is not what's going to get funded.

00:33:55.345 --> 00:34:01.640
And so was like, so are we just perpetuating the system or are we truly caring about our communities?

00:34:01.640 --> 00:34:02.991
And that's the thing.

00:34:02.991 --> 00:34:03.982
It's like...

00:34:04.317 --> 00:34:10.262
You know, when I think about marketing through that lens, it's not, I'm not trying to sell something.

00:34:10.262 --> 00:34:13.789
I'm just trying to shop and hopefully people.

00:34:13.789 --> 00:34:16.500
oh appreciate what I got to offer.

00:34:16.500 --> 00:34:20.720
And if they don't, that doesn't mean that what I have to offer has no value.

00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:21.519
Right?

00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:25.079
And it's so, but that's so counter culturally, right?

00:34:25.079 --> 00:34:30.260
It's like, because our success is measured by like, how many books have you sold?

00:34:30.260 --> 00:34:34.220
How many zeros are after your salary, right?

00:34:34.220 --> 00:34:43.958
How many, you know, in a culture where this myth of linear progress and we can have more and more and more and more, like, That is how we're measured.

00:34:43.958 --> 00:34:46.811
And what you are talking about is very different.

00:34:46.811 --> 00:34:58.802
What you're talking about is about building relationship, being authentic in that we can be authentic and build those relationships in ways that hopefully support us.

00:34:58.802 --> 00:35:05.008
It's a practice of community building in a lot of ways what you do, right?

00:35:05.008 --> 00:35:06.210
That's how I see it.

00:35:06.210 --> 00:35:07.851
that's how I feel it.

00:35:07.851 --> 00:35:16.758
don't want to, I don't want to claim those words in part because I'm like, I don't want my marketing consulting work to be community building work or like organizing work.

00:35:16.758 --> 00:35:17.738
You know what I mean?

00:35:17.738 --> 00:35:18.369
know what you mean.

00:35:18.369 --> 00:35:19.531
Yeah.

00:35:19.531 --> 00:35:21.374
And that's got integrity.

00:35:21.374 --> 00:35:22.947
Thank you for naming that.

00:35:22.947 --> 00:35:25.130
But you do some community building.

00:35:25.130 --> 00:35:30.092
feel like that's a big part of what I want to do or what I see us being a part of right now.

00:35:30.092 --> 00:35:49.577
I'm thinking about, look, if the old school model is, you know, the news is on and it's terrible on the television, and then we go back to the sitcom and we get distracted, and then you go back to the commercial and then you get distracted on this thing you need to buy.

00:35:49.577 --> 00:35:52.307
It's like, look, okay, so this is happening on the internet now, right?

00:35:52.307 --> 00:35:53.016
Yes.

00:35:53.016 --> 00:36:00.942
I am seeing an ad for, you know, bathing suits or some crack, right?

00:36:01.481 --> 00:36:07.657
Yeah, face products, whatever it is, alongside, I mean, let's just, right?

00:36:07.657 --> 00:36:16.313
Like an incredible amount of atrocities that we are witnessing on our phones, it's unprecedented in the human experience.

00:36:16.452 --> 00:36:38.493
And we're seeing it alongside news about emerging dictators and we're seeing it alongside advertisements for garbage and then we're seeing yoga and wellness people like, let me free your divine feminine and come on this yoga retreat with me to like Mexico or Cabo San Lucas or you know, whatever.

00:36:38.493 --> 00:36:43.635
It's like how, I'm sorry, I think we need to do this differently.

00:36:43.635 --> 00:37:00.818
I think we need to understand that the landscape is changing, the human experience is changing and the more we miss a tune, the more we ignore, the more we bypass and pretend that things are something that they're not, the less of an impact we're going to make in our work.

00:37:00.818 --> 00:37:08.065
And I know that most people who became entrepreneurs didn't just do it because they thought it was going to be an easy way to make money.

00:37:08.065 --> 00:37:11.928
Like they did it because they want to do something with their work, you know?

00:37:12.131 --> 00:37:19.465
I mean, if anybody is doing it to make money, I'm like, good luck to you if you're making money, but I sure would do better getting a W-2 job personally.

00:37:19.465 --> 00:37:21.676
I mean, you know, we've had this conversation personally.

00:37:21.676 --> 00:37:24.017
like, I'm always like, should I just get a job job?

00:37:24.017 --> 00:37:27.679
I could just go be a clinical director somewhere or go back to academia.

00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:31.081
That would give me more financial stability to be completely honest.

00:37:31.081 --> 00:37:36.063
But it would take all the life energy and capacity I have.

00:37:36.293 --> 00:37:46.335
to potentially do work that I don't fully believe in because it's very hard to find systems that can truly practice abolitionist values, for example, mental health.

00:37:46.335 --> 00:37:52.967
And I even tried to create some of those systems and it's not that easy to survive.

00:37:52.967 --> 00:37:58.240
you know, in this health tape in a lot of different ways when you truly embrace your values.

00:37:58.240 --> 00:38:08.316
And so maybe that's a good segue to also talk about how a lot of your work embraces cross movement solidarity to name another disability justice principle.

00:38:08.316 --> 00:38:18.506
Cause that's one of the things I really appreciate about your work as well is that I see, I see that cross movement solidarity in action is not just about gender.

00:38:18.506 --> 00:38:20.807
It is also about racial justice.

00:38:20.807 --> 00:38:24.789
It is also about uh decoloniality.

00:38:24.789 --> 00:38:26.810
It is also about land back, right?

00:38:26.810 --> 00:38:30.041
It is like, I see the cross movement solidarity.

00:38:30.041 --> 00:38:33.313
see the integrity, you know, and we never even met in person.

00:38:33.313 --> 00:38:36.854
Like I found you on Instagram talking about like social media, right?

00:38:36.854 --> 00:38:39.525
I followed you for a while and I had my questions.

00:38:39.525 --> 00:38:41.466
Like, are you, are you real?

00:38:41.466 --> 00:38:42.086
you for real?

00:38:42.086 --> 00:38:43.297
You know, and then.

00:38:43.297 --> 00:38:45.637
was like, okay, I like to work with you.

00:38:45.637 --> 00:38:56.836
And then as we built relationship, I'm like, oh no, this, is a person who truly like embodies those values, brings people together when body those values.

00:38:56.836 --> 00:39:09.977
And so, I would love to hear more from you about how does that cross movement solidarity plays out in the context of conscious marketing, if that makes sense, or your work in general.

00:39:09.977 --> 00:39:10.957
Yeah.

00:39:12.891 --> 00:39:13.321
Wow.

00:39:13.321 --> 00:39:19.197
I just feel like I have to resist the like, oh, you just call me a good white person.

00:39:20.124 --> 00:39:22.581
I'm like, see, that's it though.

00:39:22.581 --> 00:39:25.484
Is like, I know that that is in me.

00:39:25.484 --> 00:39:29.021
And I also know that there's no such thing as a good white person.

00:39:29.021 --> 00:39:32.760
No, you're just a human with integrity who's trying to do the work, right?

00:39:32.760 --> 00:39:36.560
Also, it's like, yeah, I don't, yeah, mm-hmm, yeah.

00:39:36.560 --> 00:39:36.771
a...

00:39:36.771 --> 00:39:40.413
I also don't think it's a good thing or a bad thing.

00:39:40.988 --> 00:39:43.205
I read your book, you know?

00:39:43.205 --> 00:39:46.237
Life isn't binary for goodness sakes.

00:39:46.237 --> 00:39:51.781
Look, I feel like my understanding of my transness, holy crap.

00:39:51.781 --> 00:39:59.065
Like it's so complicated because as a white person um who is...

00:39:59.126 --> 00:40:01.807
I mean, I don't think I'm...

00:40:02.332 --> 00:40:11.860
like to say I don't think I will ever be free of the racist programming and the white supremacist programming that I have grown up in.

00:40:11.860 --> 00:40:14.562
My work is to notice it when it comes up.

00:40:14.562 --> 00:40:30.922
And it feels like part of noticing is the ways in which my gender socialization and sense of self are tied to the very things that tell me that I'm somehow maybe more deserving because I'm white.

00:40:30.922 --> 00:40:31.593
Absolutely.

00:40:31.593 --> 00:40:34.349
Definitely.

00:40:34.349 --> 00:40:44.606
uh I'm also being told I'm a failure because I'm not a woman, even though my body was born in a way that's expected to be X, and Z, right?

00:40:44.606 --> 00:40:49.489
And so this like dual messaging, this like, you belong here, you don't belong here.

00:40:49.489 --> 00:40:51.059
I feel it.

00:40:51.059 --> 00:40:54.881
Like I have felt it in real time.

00:40:54.881 --> 00:41:00.508
And I don't know how to talk about racism.

00:41:00.508 --> 00:41:13.419
and white supremacy and whiteness um and the fight for human rights and not understand the great responsibilities I have in this conversation.

00:41:13.419 --> 00:41:29.180
And the fact too, like you brought up Palestine and I mean, I was raised in deep, deep Zionism and disentangling myself from that was and is both as, it's like the easiest thing.

00:41:29.180 --> 00:41:32.221
and the hardest thing at the same time.

00:41:33.322 --> 00:41:37.965
And it's easy because it felt like it happened effortlessly.

00:41:37.965 --> 00:41:46.500
It was like one day I woke up and suddenly things started clicking together and it was like, this is propaganda yet again, here it is again.

00:41:46.500 --> 00:41:53.134
Another instance in which I was brainwashed to believe something that turns out not to be true.

00:41:53.134 --> 00:41:55.175
Well, what else is not true?

00:41:55.175 --> 00:41:56.005
Right?

00:41:56.005 --> 00:41:59.605
Absolutely, when you start waking up you start to question.

00:42:01.115 --> 00:42:04.938
I don't want to fool myself into thinking I can do something that I can't do.

00:42:04.938 --> 00:42:09.119
I'm going to have biases and I want to be accountable to them.

00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:19.798
And I want to be in relationship with people who have different experiences and identities, not to take advantage, but to actually learn from each other.

00:42:19.798 --> 00:42:28.137
I mean, isn't that what like all the great radical thinkers are saying is like learn from each other, right?

00:42:28.137 --> 00:42:30.106
do the hard work together.

00:42:30.106 --> 00:42:31.778
You can't do it in isolation.

00:42:31.778 --> 00:42:32.998
We need each other.

00:42:32.998 --> 00:42:41.780
And I'm like, if I'm going to show up for that, I have to understand the ways in which I'm benefiting at others' expense.

00:42:41.780 --> 00:42:49.622
And to me, I have to understand, like, man, the Jewish teaching I was raised with was repair the world.

00:42:49.622 --> 00:42:56.394
Well, what kind of repair am I contributing to if I'm attached to this idea that Israel is my homeland?

00:42:56.394 --> 00:42:57.684
You know what I mean?

00:42:57.804 --> 00:43:06.829
What kind of repair am I committing to or involved in if I'm attached to the idea that I need to cross the street when I see a person with black skin?

00:43:06.829 --> 00:43:11.391
Like I have to be constantly checking and that's...

00:43:11.952 --> 00:43:13.372
What else is there?

00:43:14.927 --> 00:43:21.885
I mean, I'm with you because you know, like, feel like the older I get, the more I'm like, it's all about relationality and kinship.

00:43:21.885 --> 00:43:27.661
And the more I go back to like, for me, it's just, yeah, you know, so much more to say about that.

00:43:27.782 --> 00:43:32.709
But really, what I'm hearing from you is also like, it's a practice.

00:43:32.709 --> 00:43:39.235
Yeah! and I think that's why I'm like, yeah, no, I thought, you know, as you well know, I don't buy into like good people, bad people.

00:43:39.235 --> 00:43:44.707
That's just why, this just more white supremacy, more, more colonialism, more empire, right?

00:43:44.707 --> 00:43:47.678
The reality is that like, we are part of an ecosystem.

00:43:47.678 --> 00:43:48.588
have each other.

00:43:48.588 --> 00:44:00.900
What else is there but to care and nurture our relationships, you know, and what does that look like if we are in in extractive relationships and let's look at the receipts, let's look at the reality.

00:44:00.900 --> 00:44:04.322
I'm always like, let's see who benefits from this, right?

00:44:04.322 --> 00:44:11.490
And let's see, and the reality is that also a lot of those systems lie to us in how we benefit, right?

00:44:11.490 --> 00:44:12.591
Like how...

00:44:12.764 --> 00:44:16.307
people have been assimilated into whiteness in the so-called United States.

00:44:16.307 --> 00:44:27.296
It literally breaks my heart, like as a new uh immigrant who's from Italy, I mean, it also breaks my heart what's going on uh back home with the...

00:44:27.327 --> 00:44:30.648
return of fascism, but we will not go there.

00:44:30.648 --> 00:44:41.068
But it breaks my heart to see how folks of Italian descent in this country are so conservative by and large and what they've given up for assimilation.

00:44:41.068 --> 00:44:46.708
And the same could be said of Irish folks, the same could be Jewish folks.

00:44:46.768 --> 00:44:52.508
I think a lot of folks have been, were not new immigrants.

00:44:52.968 --> 00:44:57.063
I really have to deal with the loss.

00:44:57.063 --> 00:44:57.403
Right.

00:44:57.403 --> 00:45:13.891
And I know the other, uh, decolonial scholars and black folks have also said that it's like, ultimately, like actually as a light skin person, as a somewhat conditionally white person, like I have skin in the game because my liberation truly is tied with yours.

00:45:13.891 --> 00:45:16.412
Like for me, that's what solidarity is about.

00:45:16.412 --> 00:45:23.655
Like, no, and, and with the, as a trans mass person, my solidarity is tied to the liberation of trans fam folks.

00:45:23.655 --> 00:45:27.158
As, as a white person, my solidarity is tied with the liberation.

00:45:27.158 --> 00:45:37.338
of like you know uh of You know, all of us, all of us, of like Black folks, racial justice is important, land back is important.

00:45:37.338 --> 00:45:40.800
And those things are not just words, they're practices.

00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:44.671
And I love the way you're talking about, it's not about being free of bias.

00:45:44.671 --> 00:45:48.343
It's not about being perfect, showing up perfectly, saying the right words.

00:45:48.343 --> 00:45:50.744
Cause I think a lot of time people worry about that, right?

00:45:50.744 --> 00:45:52.205
Well, how is this going to land?

00:45:52.205 --> 00:45:53.226
are our people?

00:45:53.226 --> 00:45:59.108
What if people, I mean, I've been there, I thought, if I post about this, is this going to be seen as performative?

00:45:59.228 --> 00:46:03.510
And honestly, in the last few months I got over myself and I was like I don't care.

00:46:03.510 --> 00:46:06.071
People who don't know me might think this is performative.

00:46:06.071 --> 00:46:22.757
Hopefully people who know me will know better because they know me and or if people have questions they can ask just like I try to like be curious and be in conversation with other people and then how the response gives me information and hopefully vice versa right.

00:46:22.757 --> 00:46:28.019
But it's a practice it's not like because otherwise we're constantly driven by fear.

00:46:28.096 --> 00:46:35.336
And that seems like a miserable way to live in the only service empire, when we're driven by fear.

00:46:35.336 --> 00:46:36.880
I don't know if that's making sense.

00:46:36.880 --> 00:46:37.880
You're so making sense.

00:46:37.880 --> 00:46:49.725
And I'm just like, I can't help but think about how the Zionist movement is tied to white supremacy and how it's predominantly white.

00:46:49.745 --> 00:46:57.468
I mean, from what I can tell Jewish people in the United States who are actually pretty safe, who are feeling unsafe.

00:46:57.656 --> 00:47:01.218
And then it's like, okay, well, are you actually unsafe?

00:47:01.218 --> 00:47:02.778
Are you feeling unsafe?

00:47:02.778 --> 00:47:03.817
Are these two different things?

00:47:03.817 --> 00:47:06.000
I'm not saying anti-Semitism isn't real.

00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:07.160
I get it.

00:47:07.160 --> 00:47:09.061
Like that is real.

00:47:09.141 --> 00:47:13.123
And the danger right now is not yours.

00:47:13.123 --> 00:47:15.024
Like you are not the one facing the danger.

00:47:15.024 --> 00:47:27.150
um And it's so hard because, also just talk about, and it's interesting to be talking about this because in a way propaganda is a marketing machine.

00:47:27.771 --> 00:47:36.717
As we're talking about this, I'm like, well, Zionism like really took advantage of an historical moment because it started before World War II.

00:47:36.757 --> 00:47:53.763
And in my understanding as a non-Jewish person to be completely transparent, but as somebody who was lived and was brought up in the Mediterranean as you know, skin in the game even just by cultural and geographical proximity to the Levant.

00:47:54.263 --> 00:47:59.863
it's like, my understanding is like Zionism already existed, it wasn't getting much traction.

00:47:59.863 --> 00:48:11.222
And then after World War II, that really enabled Zionists to leverage, put pressure on like the British who had interests, the so-called United States who had interests in that region, right?

00:48:11.222 --> 00:48:18.684
And the propaganda, which is marketing ultimately, worked really f***ing well.

00:48:18.684 --> 00:48:26.656
Yeah, this is part of what I will be writing about, I hope, in the book project I'm working on.

00:48:26.656 --> 00:48:29.807
It's like, look, this is all marketing and branding.

00:48:29.807 --> 00:48:36.109
We could even say that the United States itself is a branding and marketing project.

00:48:36.610 --> 00:48:41.631
That gender and the gender binary is a branding and marketing project, right?

00:48:41.631 --> 00:48:44.294
That the cult of white supremacy...

00:48:44.294 --> 00:48:50.006
slash the culture of white supremacy, slash the culture, slash cult of Zionism.

00:48:50.006 --> 00:48:52.987
Like all of these things are marketing and branding projects.

00:48:52.987 --> 00:48:57.368
What are we like furthering in our own marketing?

00:48:57.368 --> 00:49:11.362
Are we reinforcing all of these existing projects that are in motion or are we recognizing they're in motion and we're a part of that same space, which means we have a responsibility to shift, we can shift it.

00:49:11.362 --> 00:49:30.409
That's why I'm like, Oh, like, let's, I mean, let's imagine this space as not a space where we fill our pockets with money because we're greedy or competitive, but instead looking to shift culture together financially and otherwise on behalf of greater access for everyone, right, to thrive.

00:49:30.409 --> 00:49:35.431
It's like we can use the marketing space for our own activism.

00:49:35.431 --> 00:49:38.312
And that can look a lot of different ways.

00:49:38.312 --> 00:49:51.890
And to me, It's a beautiful gift that the internet has given us even in the midst of the mess, you know, is that we have individual spaces where we can express things and contribute to things and have conversations.

00:49:51.890 --> 00:49:55.523
yeah, it's exhausting at times and painful.

00:49:55.523 --> 00:50:09.132
And we are able to, would we even have some of the language that we're using in this conversation if it weren't for the way social media and the internet have furthered our conversations, you know?

00:50:09.278 --> 00:50:14.483
And it is such an interesting paradox, which obviously I'm very interested in paradox, whereas I, yeah, that's right.

00:50:14.483 --> 00:50:18.637
So my left arm, my little paradox, do, right?

00:50:18.697 --> 00:50:26.765
I was like, think paradox is on the left, discernment is on the right, which I was like, I can't remember if we chose that placement, but whatever.

00:50:26.765 --> 00:50:31.077
But you know, it's like, it is that paradox where it's like.

00:50:32.032 --> 00:50:36.592
On one hand, it's, oh, it was in my head and then I would lost it.

00:50:36.592 --> 00:50:37.731
It'll come back again.

00:50:37.731 --> 00:50:41.751
But there is something about the paradox of, um...

00:50:42.161 --> 00:50:43.922
the message, social media, right?

00:50:43.922 --> 00:50:45.874
On one hand, that's what I was thinking.

00:50:45.874 --> 00:50:47.414
Thank you for your patience.

00:50:47.414 --> 00:50:55.001
On one hand, social media is really perpetuating a lot of like, you know, uh terrible misinformation.

00:50:55.001 --> 00:50:59.184
We all know the issues with who owns a lot of the big platforms.

00:50:59.184 --> 00:51:03.787
We all know the issue of platforms refusing to like be more.

00:51:04.399 --> 00:51:07.310
discerning in who they like uplift.

00:51:07.310 --> 00:51:10.762
And we all know the misuse of community standards.

00:51:10.762 --> 00:51:13.343
We've seen it over and over, right?

00:51:13.343 --> 00:51:27.350
And at the same time, as an older genexer who remembers the world before the internet, uh the internet and especially social media, because I also remember world before the internet, then internet without social media, and then social media, right?

00:51:27.350 --> 00:51:39.735
Social media and even the early like chat platforms on AOL and all of them, MySpace, Live Tour, has enabled us to create community beyond our geographical boundaries, right?

00:51:39.735 --> 00:51:44.977
And to find each other when we feel like we're the only person, right?

00:51:44.977 --> 00:51:54.460
To build networks of solidarity, networks of community, to learn from each other, to connect with each other across time and distance.

00:51:54.460 --> 00:51:56.553
So for me, that's why that's a paradox.

00:51:56.553 --> 00:51:59.731
I don't really buy the social media good, social media bad.

00:51:59.731 --> 00:52:02.402
was like, social media is just another tool.

00:52:03.543 --> 00:52:04.171
Yeah.

00:52:04.171 --> 00:52:10.281
I want us to use it because if we don't, who's using it then, right?

00:52:10.281 --> 00:52:14.586
Who are we leaving to dominate that space?

00:52:14.586 --> 00:52:17.550
And I know it is complicated.

00:52:17.550 --> 00:52:21.554
Many of us, our voices are not platformed or uplifted.

00:52:21.936 --> 00:52:25.336
and people's biases are playing out online.

00:52:25.336 --> 00:52:32.085
So like people are, might be less likely to engage in content that makes them uncomfortable or challenges them in some way.

00:52:32.085 --> 00:52:33.686
And that's real.

00:52:33.686 --> 00:52:48.445
And I would much rather take up space on these platforms and have a voice and have a space and be able to uplift other people's work and contribute in this way than leave it to be dominated.

00:52:48.445 --> 00:52:55.981
by false news, fake news or misinformation or bias or, it's just, it's so interesting.

00:52:55.981 --> 00:53:00.926
We have to challenge it within it, the systems.

00:53:01.026 --> 00:53:02.698
This is another way to do that.

00:53:02.698 --> 00:53:05.760
And yeah, we could say like, it's so sad.

00:53:05.760 --> 00:53:08.974
It's almost like social media is not so social anymore.

00:53:08.974 --> 00:53:12.577
And it's like, come on, all these things are getting, everything changes.

00:53:12.577 --> 00:53:15.359
Can we just count on the fact that things change?

00:53:15.568 --> 00:53:18.420
It's also like how we use it.

00:53:18.541 --> 00:53:29.106
I mean, and maybe it's my neurodivergence, I'm both autistic and a DHT, and my autism sometimes has a real hard time with people who use social media, just like a stage.

00:53:29.106 --> 00:53:31.437
Because for me, that loses the social piece.

00:53:31.437 --> 00:53:36.670
I understand sometimes the need to like, you know, limit comment or not engage with comment.

00:53:36.670 --> 00:53:38.847
But I've also encountered the like...

00:53:38.847 --> 00:53:41.487
This is just like, it's like having a megaphone, right?

00:53:41.487 --> 00:53:47.387
Which yes, sure, sometimes we have a megaphone, but then for me, the social part is the engagement.

00:53:47.387 --> 00:53:49.307
Like I like to engage with people.

00:53:49.307 --> 00:53:53.147
I like to have conversations because that's how I learn.

00:53:53.147 --> 00:54:00.367
And so it's so interesting on how it's become more media and less social in some ways, if that makes sense.

00:54:00.367 --> 00:54:03.195
Can we bring back the social part of social media?

00:54:03.195 --> 00:54:09.599
You know, always say, remember when it used to be social networking and we actually like engaged?

00:54:09.599 --> 00:54:11.571
it's, we've, it's so funny.

00:54:11.571 --> 00:54:21.231
So many of us are like uh spending way too much time on these little screens, feeling isolated, looking for some sort of quick.

00:54:21.231 --> 00:54:28.817
soothing or distraction or dissociation, connection, not getting it in the way that we're actually craving for.

00:54:28.817 --> 00:54:31.869
Our brains are literally being rewired, right?

00:54:31.869 --> 00:54:33.871
Our attention spans are changing.

00:54:33.871 --> 00:54:39.615
All of these things, we're feeling more isolated and yet we keep reaching for this thing.

00:54:39.615 --> 00:54:44.048
And a lot of it is again, like entertainment, distraction, connection, whatever.

00:54:44.048 --> 00:54:45.550
And it's so funny.

00:54:45.550 --> 00:54:48.342
So many people are like, it's not fun on Instagram anymore.

00:54:48.342 --> 00:54:50.141
Yeah, the world isn't fun.

00:54:50.141 --> 00:54:56.893
Like, I'm sorry! Yes, because like it is not fun right now.

00:54:56.893 --> 00:55:01.784
I mean also exactly hasn't been fun for a long time.

00:55:01.784 --> 00:55:11.798
It's like you know and there's a part of me that's like you know going back to Gaza and Palestine for example somebody who's been aware of this for like 40 plus years.

00:55:11.798 --> 00:55:15.759
It is amazing to see the increased engagement.

00:55:16.260 --> 00:55:20.704
There is an awareness about what's happening in Gaza that was not there in the 80s.

00:55:20.704 --> 00:55:32.956
And even when I first moved to the so-called United States in early 2000s, 2008, very few people were talking about bull cutting Israeli products or...

00:55:32.956 --> 00:55:41.939
um knew what was going on in Gaza, and had an understanding of the occupation.

00:55:41.939 --> 00:55:45.359
And so there is power in that coming together.

00:55:45.359 --> 00:55:48.068
And so for me, that's why I don't ever want to...

00:55:48.068 --> 00:55:50.530
see a tool and be like, this is bad, right?

00:55:50.530 --> 00:55:55.162
And lots of things have rewired their brains, honestly, throughout human history, right?

00:55:55.162 --> 00:55:57.713
I mean, when Forks first came out, right?

00:55:57.713 --> 00:56:00.224
what uh is this devil technology?

00:56:00.224 --> 00:56:06.286
Vibrators were used to cure like, isteria in air quotes, right?

00:56:06.286 --> 00:56:09.981
But like, yes, it's a technology.

00:56:09.981 --> 00:56:16.436
The technology in itself is not good or bad, just like marketing can be propaganda.

00:56:17.137 --> 00:56:22.320
know, marketing can be propaganda for the forces of...

00:56:22.336 --> 00:56:23.476
destruction.

00:56:23.476 --> 00:56:28.476
don't even want to say evil because perpetuating this good and evil is another Christian supremacist.

00:56:28.476 --> 00:56:31.876
I'm like, no, this is about oppression, extraction.

00:56:31.876 --> 00:56:40.876
This is about dehumanizing and putting, you know, individual interests above the interests of the community, right?

00:56:41.196 --> 00:56:44.356
By a very small group of selected few.

00:56:44.456 --> 00:56:49.456
so yes, marketing can be used as propaganda because propaganda is marketing, honestly.

00:56:49.456 --> 00:56:59.541
And It can also be used to like build relationship, get our message out in the world, get a counter message out in the world, helping people wake up.

00:56:59.541 --> 00:57:04.806
Like, right, you must have come across information that helped you wake up from Zionism one day.

00:57:04.806 --> 00:57:06.827
It's not like it suddenly happened, right?

00:57:06.827 --> 00:57:10.431
Like, I'm assuming, I don't know, I was not brought up that way.

00:57:10.431 --> 00:57:12.789
I'm assuming something, you know.

00:57:12.789 --> 00:57:28.554
and that's the thing is like, when I think about these moments, these like small moments of waking up, you know, um it's like, wouldn't, I don't know if I, I'm sure I would have figured out this gender situation no matter what, obviously.

00:57:28.554 --> 00:57:37.061
And if it weren't for Instagram, I would not have had people who I was like, they're so cool though.

00:57:37.061 --> 00:57:39.052
Like, why do I want to know them?

00:57:39.052 --> 00:57:40.914
And why do I want to be like them?

00:57:40.914 --> 00:57:47.687
And why does everyone I think is really cool is actually trans or queer, gender nonconforming.

00:57:47.687 --> 00:57:49.127
That says something, you know?

00:57:49.127 --> 00:57:51.628
Like there was no representation.

00:57:51.628 --> 00:57:58.151
Just like there was no representation of questioning Zionism.

00:57:58.251 --> 00:58:02.143
And it wasn't until the show Transparent, do you remember that show?

00:58:02.143 --> 00:58:03.533
Did you ever see it?

00:58:04.974 --> 00:58:16.322
That show was what showed me the first thread of like, uh This other truth exists, Tristan, and you were intentionally kept from it.

00:58:16.322 --> 00:58:20.365
And even just saying that out loud, I can feel chills.

00:58:20.365 --> 00:58:21.026
feel it.

00:58:21.026 --> 00:58:23.122
I got goosebumps when you said that.

00:58:23.122 --> 00:58:29.097
Yeah, because it's so, it's like, I see that thread in so many different ways of my life.

00:58:29.097 --> 00:58:40.368
I do not like people keeping truths from me when I know deep down that there is another truth or when I start to pull and see like this isn't true and somebody's still like, no, it is, it is, it is.

00:58:40.368 --> 00:58:42.650
And that bothers me so much.

00:58:42.650 --> 00:58:47.634
And I just, I want to be a part of the marketing of truth.

00:58:48.263 --> 00:59:04.679
Yes, I mean, honestly, the truth is going to like facts or realities are going to have a hard time if like, you know, if propaganda like, like wins basically that is, you know, and also it's like.

00:59:04.721 --> 00:59:09.913
The truth can be nuanced, but that doesn't mean that it's complex, right?

00:59:09.913 --> 00:59:18.536
It's like I can both hold like that I want a free Palestine and I also can hold that anti-Semitism is absolutely not okay.

00:59:18.536 --> 00:59:21.224
And yes, that it is being weaponized right now.

00:59:21.224 --> 00:59:23.798
I do see a rise in anti-Semitism.

00:59:23.798 --> 00:59:25.038
That is all true.

00:59:25.038 --> 00:59:27.775
I can also hold the truth that sure.

00:59:27.775 --> 00:59:32.215
a lot of Jewish folks have indigenous roots in the region.

00:59:32.215 --> 00:59:38.795
And that doesn't mean that that justifies an occupation.

00:59:39.755 --> 00:59:46.055
First of all, the distraction of the sovereign state that existed before Palestine was a state.

00:59:46.055 --> 00:59:48.155
There's a lot of like facts around that.

00:59:48.155 --> 01:00:21.900
Like, so it doesn't justify the distraction of a state than an occupation and the distraction of people but it's so hard because the propaganda is so effective that even at some like dear folks in my life were like yes free Palestine but you need to not frame me as an issue of occupation and colonialism because uh Jewish people are indigenous I'm like yes I also have indigeneity to my land you know and You know, that doesn't mean I wish I remember the name of the black creator who are just so talking about this.

01:00:21.900 --> 01:00:23.708
My apologies about that.

01:00:23.708 --> 01:00:26.831
But really talked about how, you know.

01:00:27.066 --> 01:00:29.358
Europeans were also colonized.

01:00:29.358 --> 01:00:31.720
You should know better white people.

01:00:31.720 --> 01:00:36.585
You should know what colonialism, what Christian supremacy has done.

01:00:36.585 --> 01:00:39.171
so it's like for me, again, it's that paradox.

01:00:39.171 --> 01:00:39.888
You know what I mean?

01:00:39.888 --> 01:00:42.990
It's like, yes, say free Palestine, but don't say occupation.

01:00:42.990 --> 01:00:47.535
Don't say colonialism because that fuels uh anti-Jewish sentiment.

01:00:47.535 --> 01:00:48.475
was like...

01:00:49.151 --> 01:00:51.071
It is not about anti-Semitism.

01:00:51.071 --> 01:00:53.710
It's about the reality of extraction.

01:00:53.771 --> 01:00:54.911
Does that make sense?

01:00:54.911 --> 01:00:55.490
I don't know.

01:00:55.490 --> 01:00:59.297
I'm not a Jewish person, so I want to defer to you on this, but yeah.

01:00:59.297 --> 01:01:02.990
I'm thinking so much right now too about having been raised.

01:01:02.990 --> 01:01:06.905
I used to go to a Jewish summer camp and it was a really, really important place for me.

01:01:06.905 --> 01:01:10.018
It was the first place that I found community and a sense of home.

01:01:10.018 --> 01:01:19.327
And the last time I went there, I went to visit and I was...

01:01:19.471 --> 01:01:22.582
I was closer to this version of myself than I've ever been.

01:01:22.582 --> 01:01:27.133
And so I was aware of my transness while being on the campus property.

01:01:27.133 --> 01:01:33.595
And I was looking at the girls and boys bunks and I was thinking about little Tristan and where little Tristan would have gone.

01:01:33.595 --> 01:01:40.617
And so I emailed them and I said, Hey, you know, really special to come back.

01:01:40.617 --> 01:01:45.539
You know, now that I understand myself to be a trans person, I'm wondering what you're doing for trans kids.

01:01:45.539 --> 01:01:48.787
And they were like, Oh, trans kids, yes, we're on top of it.

01:01:48.787 --> 01:01:51.725
Yay, protect trans kids was basically the email.

01:01:53.570 --> 01:01:54.661
I'm just like.

01:01:56.260 --> 01:01:59.452
they're not doing anything, you know?

01:01:59.452 --> 01:02:12.402
And so, and I'm like, well, actually, one of the truths of Jewish culture that has been erased is that Judaism once taught that there were at least six or eight genders, right?

01:02:12.402 --> 01:02:20.267
And it's like, but I was raised in a Judaism that said girls do this and boys do this, and this is a part of Judaism.

01:02:20.908 --> 01:02:26.000
Okay, so that needs to be questioned because it wasn't always this way.

01:02:26.000 --> 01:02:26.671
What else?

01:02:26.671 --> 01:02:28.082
I mean, it's like, what else are we?

01:02:28.082 --> 01:02:36.829
And also in Judaism was never raised to think my genes are from Ukraine.

01:02:36.990 --> 01:02:50.561
But I'm even my father had no idea when I told him that he was blown away in part because we were indoctrinated to believe that we have some genetic ancestral tie to Israel as if.

01:02:50.561 --> 01:02:52.222
I'm just like, no.

01:02:52.222 --> 01:02:54.747
m does, yeah.

01:02:55.291 --> 01:03:08.914
And for me to think that I have entitlement to that land simply because somebody told me I did, ah and that therefore I'm going to believe that a whole people should be removed.

01:03:09.795 --> 01:03:34.664
Again, I can't see this as anything other than an extension of all the other systems of gender and white supremacy and gender binary and settler colonialism to your point, all the things that I'm just like, If we as Jewish people are taught to value human life, are we actually going to value human life or are we going to reinforce hierarchies?

01:03:34.664 --> 01:03:39.939
And that's not the kind of spiritual faith that I want to be a part of, you know?

01:03:40.063 --> 01:03:51.923
Oh my God, I could talk about this for another hour and then indoctrination through the Catholic Church of values that I knew were like dissonant and part of like maybe because.

01:03:52.068 --> 01:04:00.297
I really look at patterns and like questioning some of those patterns and, now like that helped me resist some of the conditioning, right?

01:04:00.297 --> 01:04:06.814
Cause while also of course being deeply steeped in the conditioning and resisting it and, we could talk about this.

01:04:06.814 --> 01:04:14.747
Maybe I feel like this every time I talk to a guest, I was like, I need three more hours to talk about this Tristan with you.

01:04:14.747 --> 01:04:18.722
Well, it means you're connecting with good guests then, Alex.

01:04:18.722 --> 01:04:19.863
You're doing a good job.

01:04:19.863 --> 01:04:22.176
Yeah.

01:04:22.176 --> 01:04:24.368
I also think it's so fascinating.

01:04:24.368 --> 01:04:32.187
I was like, we went from conscious marketing to this like deep dive into propaganda and conditioning and deconditioning.

01:04:32.187 --> 01:04:37.892
But to me, and I'm aware of time and I want to be respectful of your time, but to me, that's come back to it.

01:04:37.892 --> 01:04:40.014
That's the conscious piece, right?

01:04:40.014 --> 01:04:44.798
The conscious piece is, are we giving people tools like...

01:04:44.798 --> 01:04:48.417
uh to have discernment, right?

01:04:48.417 --> 01:04:53.502
Are we actually educating people in critical thinking, whether it's marketing, whether it's gender, right?

01:04:53.502 --> 01:04:57.075
Umusilla talks about like this, how important critical thinking is.

01:04:57.075 --> 01:05:02.291
Of course, critical thinking has always been a threat to fascism and any oppressive regimes.

01:05:02.291 --> 01:05:06.835
That's why the education system in the so-called US is what it is, because...

01:05:06.983 --> 01:05:17.090
And that's why educators are not valued because we don't think or compensated, you know, appropriately because there is this like devaluing of critical thinking.

01:05:17.090 --> 01:05:33.791
Like school is to produce workers is not to support the psychological, intellectual, emotional, social development and to help people become critical thinkers who can better engage in building the world.

01:05:33.791 --> 01:05:34.252
Right.

01:05:34.252 --> 01:05:35.994
Like so.

01:05:35.994 --> 01:05:36.454
funny.

01:05:36.454 --> 01:05:44.720
I'll just end with this little anecdote, which is my father, one of his mottos, apart from marketing through education, he had many taglines.

01:05:44.720 --> 01:05:52.776
One was, you know, something about like, give a man a fish, feed him for a day, but teach a man to fish, you know?

01:05:52.776 --> 01:05:54.917
Yeah, he loved that one.

01:05:54.917 --> 01:05:56.557
And I think about it a lot.

01:05:56.557 --> 01:05:58.780
he still loves that one.

01:05:58.780 --> 01:06:02.663
He just doesn't use these phrases as much anymore because he's retired, quote unquote.

01:06:02.663 --> 01:06:13.891
But The point I'm making is I never want to give anybody that I'm working with, like the rule book or the guidebook or the like map, because I don't think it exists.

01:06:13.891 --> 01:06:17.691
And I think a lot of us want to be told this is how you do it though.

01:06:17.691 --> 01:06:19.371
This is the next step.

01:06:19.371 --> 01:06:21.471
This is how you become an ally.

01:06:21.471 --> 01:06:23.671
This is how you decolonize your mind.

01:06:23.671 --> 01:06:25.591
And this is how you grow a business, right?

01:06:25.591 --> 01:06:31.208
It's you tick these boxes and I'm like, no, no, I'm going to teach you.

01:06:31.208 --> 01:06:41.172
some of the stuff that I've learned about marketing so that you can find your own way through in a way that actually feels okay for you because it's the only way you're going to get it done.

01:06:41.172 --> 01:06:48.074
And that's not something I can give you from a rule book or a guidebook, just like I can't give you a checklist for your allyship.

01:06:48.074 --> 01:07:00.939
And that's the critical thinking piece that I want us to facilitate so that people can feel autonomous and empowered to understand how to use their voices for change and growing their work.

01:07:01.606 --> 01:07:02.437
I love that.

01:07:02.437 --> 01:07:13.090
And also like challenge those internalized messages that tell us we're not good enough if we're not like, I don't know, I have 200,000 people on Instagram who are like making six or seven figures.

01:07:13.090 --> 01:07:15.255
It's like, that's got nothing to do with our worth.

01:07:15.255 --> 01:07:17.996
And I love that you're not about those results, right?

01:07:17.996 --> 01:07:21.452
You're not like, my people are like making this much money for their programs.

01:07:21.452 --> 01:07:23.955
You're like, no, I'm just trying to get.

01:07:23.955 --> 01:07:40.383
people with some integrity to get their message out there so we can challenge some of this like overwhelming propaganda that is that is ultimately not serving any of us, anyone ultimately, truly like.

01:07:40.786 --> 01:07:41.700
Yeah.

01:07:41.851 --> 01:07:51.216
Oh, like I said, I could talk about this for a long time, but I'm to be respectful of your own time and the listener's time, or if you're watching on YouTube, the watcher's time.

01:07:51.216 --> 01:07:55.447
But I always ask a couple of questions at the end of interviews, especially trans folks.

01:07:55.447 --> 01:08:07.273
One is like, what's bringing you joy, comfort or nourishment, especially at this time of like increased trans hostility, as I increase because it's always been here since colonialism has been here.

01:08:07.273 --> 01:08:10.605
And so what's bringing you joy?

01:08:10.605 --> 01:08:11.664
And then is there anything?

01:08:11.664 --> 01:08:18.097
that we haven't talked about that you wish we had covered, so you can answer both, one of them, whatever you like.

01:08:19.251 --> 01:08:25.171
I'm sure you won't be surprised to hear that movies and television are bringing me joy.

01:08:26.211 --> 01:08:29.911
We watched Sinners for the first time.

01:08:30.911 --> 01:08:37.751
Oh, I mean, I knew it was gonna be good, but I just still didn't totally, of course, know what to expect.

01:08:37.871 --> 01:08:41.751
We watched it two nights ago and last night, Brooke and I were like, should we do it again?

01:08:41.751 --> 01:08:43.570
We're gonna have to do it again soon.

01:08:43.570 --> 01:08:45.510
It's that good, yeah.

01:08:46.051 --> 01:08:48.208
So I would say Sinners and...

01:08:48.208 --> 01:08:50.442
RuPaul's Drag Race are bringing me joy.

01:08:50.442 --> 01:08:54.807
Yeah.

01:08:54.807 --> 01:08:56.390
And no, I feel satiated.

01:08:56.390 --> 01:08:58.113
This was really lovely, Alex.

01:08:58.113 --> 01:08:59.354
Thank you for having me.

01:08:59.354 --> 01:09:06.083
I don't think there's anything else that I want to bring in and I just appreciate you and everything you do and your work and your voice.

01:09:06.113 --> 01:09:07.431
Oh, thank you so much.

01:09:07.431 --> 01:09:08.726
feel the same.

01:09:08.743 --> 01:09:24.512
about you, like so much appreciation, so much gratitude for what you brought to my life in the last year and a half and for our collaboration of like of holding ground that we're doing, you know, creating a space for like trans folks in leadership, whatever that means to them.

01:09:24.512 --> 01:09:29.514
I just I just have so much appreciation for who you are and what you do.

01:09:29.695 --> 01:09:47.319
And dear gender stories listeners or watchers, for those of you who watching on YouTube now, I hope you can find em Your own integrity in whatever you do, even if marketing is now your jam, I hope that you got something out of this conversation around how we get our message in the world.

01:09:47.319 --> 01:09:53.498
And that I think that is relevant to community organizing, not just entrepreneurs, not just the wellness space.

01:09:53.498 --> 01:09:55.139
It's relevant to community organizers.

01:09:55.139 --> 01:09:56.599
It's relevant to educators.

01:09:56.599 --> 01:10:00.059
It's relevant to pretty much anybody who's living in this world.

01:10:00.059 --> 01:10:08.367
Like how do we have those conversations that sure they're nuanced, but they're actually not that complex if we really kind of break it down.

01:10:08.367 --> 01:10:19.762
So I hope that you've learned from this episode and I'd love to hear from you if you have and until then take care of yourselves and each other.