WEBVTT 00:00:33.799 --> 00:00:37.841 Hello and welcome to a very special episode of Gender Stories. 00:00:37.841 --> 00:00:48.047 I know that I'm always delighted, but I'm extra delighted because I get to talk about a project that um my wonderful colleague and now friend, Dr. 00:00:48.047 --> 00:00:51.569 Mackenzie Steiner and I have been working on for quite some time. 00:00:51.569 --> 00:00:56.112 So first of all, let me introduce you to the wonderful Mackenzie. 00:00:56.112 --> 00:01:02.067 Mackenzie Steiner is a reformed clinical psychologist with over 20 years of clinical experience. 00:01:02.067 --> 00:01:08.610 specializing in attachment, gender identity, and socialization, as well as addictions and trauma recovery. 00:01:08.710 --> 00:01:18.174 For 20 of those years, she worked with veterans facing just about every possible type of concern related to their identities, relationships, and mental health. 00:01:18.174 --> 00:01:23.837 But particularly, she worked at the interface of addictions and complex post-traumatic stress. 00:01:23.918 --> 00:01:28.189 Mackenzie transitioned into private practice at the beginning of 2023. 00:01:28.189 --> 00:01:35.104 to stretch her wings and be free to practice with communities and in ways unencumbered by organizational constraints. 00:01:35.286 --> 00:01:47.394 At the heart of her work is building an attuned, compassionate, and safe relational base from which to explore the challenging aspects of one's history and how it intersects with the present moment. 00:01:47.515 --> 00:02:02.480 Mackenzie accomplishes this from a mosaic of attachment, mindfulness, emotionally and somatically focused approaches, as well as parts work perspective that she has found most efficiently and humanely promote long-term change and deep healing. 00:02:02.480 --> 00:02:06.923 And she has found that nature can be a profound ally for this process. 00:02:07.323 --> 00:02:16.812 On the more personal side, she's an avid outdoors person who's most nourished by activities ranging from landscaping to hiking, climbing, and backpacking. 00:02:16.812 --> 00:02:31.450 She's also a seeker of mysteries, having an insatiable curiosity to discover the knowledge and wisdom underlying our physical, psychological, relational, and spiritual realities in service of promoting our health and authentic evolution. 00:02:31.450 --> 00:02:32.992 Hi, Mackenzie. 00:02:32.992 --> 00:02:37.507 So good to have you here as a guest for Gender Stories. 00:02:37.507 --> 00:02:41.300 Thank you so much for making the time and agreeing to doing this with me. 00:02:41.300 --> 00:02:42.841 I really appreciate it. 00:02:43.093 --> 00:02:43.884 You're so welcome. 00:02:43.884 --> 00:02:49.856 I've been looking forward to this and imagining that given the project we've been working on at some point we would be doing this. 00:02:49.856 --> 00:02:52.331 So it's exciting to be here. 00:02:53.170 --> 00:02:57.850 So first of all, let's talk about what brought us together, like how we met each other. 00:02:58.091 --> 00:03:02.711 When we first met, you were in Austin, Texas, I believe, and now you're in California. 00:03:02.711 --> 00:03:06.070 I'm up in Minnesota, so we're not local to each other. 00:03:06.471 --> 00:03:10.831 And so let's explain to the listener a little bit about how we met. 00:03:10.831 --> 00:03:12.250 How does that sound? 00:03:14.127 --> 00:03:15.367 All righty. 00:03:15.367 --> 00:03:22.146 So as some of you might know, I am a Somatic Experiencing Practitioner, just like Mackenzie is. 00:03:22.146 --> 00:03:31.507 And I have over the years done a few webinars for Somatic Experiencing International, which is the training home for Somatic Experiencing. 00:03:31.726 --> 00:04:17.117 And at one point, as part of the collaborative work that I've been doing with Somatic Experiencing International, I was one of the organizers, volunteer organizers for a gender and sexuality conference and I presented around I believe the topic of gender dysphoria from a somatic perspective if I remember correctly I was like I was trying to think back I was I was like I think that was the presentation and it's been a minute doesn't it so two years ago I was presenting on this and as I often do, especially when I'm feeling it, I said, you know, if anybody wants to collaborate, there is so much work to do on gender from a somatic perspective. 00:04:17.158 --> 00:04:25.279 And Mackenzie, you took that call, which was wonderful, because often people think that I'm just saying it for saying it, but I mean it. 00:04:25.319 --> 00:04:29.391 And you emailed me and we started this uh conversation. 00:04:29.391 --> 00:04:53.764 And then the conversation became this project, the Collective Alchemy of Gender Liberation, which we'll tell listeners more about and now here we are, uh know, two and a bit years later, you know, having a project, having um something that we're ready to offer to the world um and doing this episode which is really wonderful. 00:04:53.764 --> 00:05:00.067 So I'm curious about what inspired you to kind of connect with me from that presentation. 00:05:01.310 --> 00:05:17.230 Yeah, so for me a little bit before that, I was two years into my transition and had been looking to, obviously I was deep diving into integrating this more into my practice. 00:05:17.230 --> 00:05:23.650 This was being having worked at the VA, wasn't a central piece to be focusing on issues of gender identity. 00:05:24.430 --> 00:05:37.456 And so I was rapidly absorbing lots of different perspectives and then I saw that somatic experiencing was going to be putting on this one day conference, which um I was very excited about. 00:05:37.456 --> 00:05:46.050 And then you sort of played to use the baseball metaphor cleanup at the end of the presentation and I was enjoying it. 00:05:46.050 --> 00:05:55.809 And then I heard you speak and it was like, my God, the level of subtlety and profundity of perspective around the community was so moving. 00:05:55.809 --> 00:05:57.627 I could feel your heart. 00:05:57.627 --> 00:06:01.221 was in it so deeply, like I feel your compassion. 00:06:01.401 --> 00:06:06.365 And I felt a sense of like, my God, I would love to work with this person. 00:06:06.365 --> 00:06:14.223 And afterwards I was sitting with a fair bit of anxiety about like, do I have, mean, I'm pretty young in this process around gender identity. 00:06:14.223 --> 00:06:19.007 And then I started to reflect on, well, like this is a, who knows where this is gonna go. 00:06:19.007 --> 00:06:23.321 I've been trying to step more into embracing mystery and not. 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:29.103 having to know everything before I step in and there was a part of me like saying, think I need to do that. 00:06:29.103 --> 00:06:43.532 um And holding on to that I had, I felt like I had a lot of experiences and perspectives having worked with um complex trauma and addictions work. 00:06:43.532 --> 00:06:57.884 And I felt like, you maybe I will have something to share and contribute, you know, so I reached out and um here we are, you know, there's It's been long journey and a lot of things, a lot of water under the bridge in the process. 00:06:58.543 --> 00:06:59.343 Absolutely. 00:06:59.343 --> 00:07:15.682 And one of the things I love is that this hasn't been, I might get emotional when I talk about this actually, I just realized I was like tearing up and I was like, it has been a journey because this hasn't been just like, oh yeah, let's collaborate and make a product, right? 00:07:15.823 --> 00:07:26.810 What really struck me every time we spoke was, First of all, your deep authenticity and vulnerability, which I treasure with my whole heart. 00:07:26.810 --> 00:07:50.499 Not only you are a very experienced practitioner, and yes, sure, you might have been newer to your gender journey, but you are a very experienced mental health practitioner and a Somatic Experiencing Practitioner, but also the willingness of being so authentic, so vulnerable and so real, which is something I really deeply treasure, right? 00:07:50.499 --> 00:07:57.889 Even at the beginning, because it's been a couple of years with a lot of like health challenges and other changes in my life. 00:07:57.889 --> 00:08:03.641 And so I remember even early on, you were like, it's okay if you don't want to do this and you're trying to let me down gently. 00:08:03.641 --> 00:08:11.535 And I was like, no, no, no, I literally had to reschedule a couple of times because, you know, life is a lot and living with chronic health issues is a lot. 00:08:11.535 --> 00:08:18.377 so, you know, just even just initially like the very direct communication, which I really treasure. 00:08:18.377 --> 00:08:26.230 But then as we work together, you know, just we were really able to get vulnerable with each other. 00:08:26.230 --> 00:08:34.727 Finally, earlier this year, we met in person for the first time and you were so generous to open your home to me and one of my partners. 00:08:34.727 --> 00:08:39.981 And then at the second visit, because I got to visit you twice to one of my kids as well. 00:08:40.361 --> 00:08:43.144 And um it's just been wonderful, right? 00:08:43.144 --> 00:08:46.526 And from my perspective, because... 00:08:46.625 --> 00:08:55.297 It has not just been about let's do something that centers gender from a somatic perspective, but also let's really... 00:08:55.297 --> 00:09:06.810 uh go through a process that reflects our values, that goes as slow as we need to go, that has much integrity as we can, right? 00:09:06.810 --> 00:09:09.250 And really value the connection between us. 00:09:09.250 --> 00:09:12.952 So I don't know, that's how I've kind of experienced that process. 00:09:12.952 --> 00:09:19.304 And I'm curious about kind of your, at your end, kind of how you experienced that, because I really value that. 00:09:19.304 --> 00:09:20.154 I think... 00:09:21.395 --> 00:09:35.701 You can find collaborators professionally, but I think it's such a gift when you also find collaborators where the values align and there is this kind of depth of connection that then has led to a friendship as well as a collaboration. 00:09:35.701 --> 00:09:38.882 So I'm curious about your experience from that point of view. 00:09:39.644 --> 00:09:42.145 So I can really join you there. 00:09:42.145 --> 00:09:49.966 The experience that I had was very much in contrast with many of the ways that I've collaborated with others. 00:09:49.966 --> 00:09:56.308 From the very get-go, it was about relationship and heart first, more than anything. 00:09:56.448 --> 00:09:59.149 And most of the types of... 00:09:59.469 --> 00:10:06.990 When I've collaborated with other people or worked on projects, it's felt like the project is at the heart, that's the center. 00:10:06.990 --> 00:10:18.463 And so throughout this journey, whether it was you're needing to put some pauses on in my uncertainty and checking in like, hey, is this something that you're really interested in? 00:10:18.463 --> 00:10:22.596 Because there's a part of me like, maybe this isn't going to be the best thing. 00:10:22.596 --> 00:10:24.027 I'm not maybe the best person. 00:10:24.027 --> 00:10:25.998 There was some insecurity coming up yet again. 00:10:25.998 --> 00:10:37.747 um And you were very generous in being open and sharing that like, no, you're still very into the idea of what we were wanting to pull together. 00:10:37.903 --> 00:10:56.700 And so, and then that sort of like what started more on um something that you needed some space or time or some pauses, then it flipped, you know, as I went into eventually having surgeries and going through a divorce process and needing to take time or dealing with the emotional impacts of that. 00:10:56.700 --> 00:11:10.231 always felt like before we got to anything about this project that we were trying to bring into the world, It was always about checking in and it has always remained that throughout every meeting that we have, that as at the heart. 00:11:10.231 --> 00:11:15.038 Like our relationships centered first before we get into anything else. 00:11:15.038 --> 00:11:23.157 And I think it creates a incredibly um safe foundation for the work that we're doing. 00:11:23.735 --> 00:11:27.878 Absolutely, and I know that we want to talk a little bit more about that. 00:11:27.878 --> 00:11:32.222 But before we do that, let's talk about what we're doing, because we know what we're doing. 00:11:32.222 --> 00:11:36.686 But I just realized, I was like, yeah, we haven't told the listeners what we're doing yet. 00:11:36.686 --> 00:11:43.331 So we've come up with this beautiful program called The Collective Alchemy of Gender Liberation. 00:11:43.331 --> 00:11:51.674 which is kind of a somatic skills program by trans people for trans people and trans people as the largest, broadest umbrella. 00:11:51.674 --> 00:11:55.670 So trans, non-binary, two-spirit, gender-expansive. 00:11:55.871 --> 00:12:04.877 anybody who feels like who can resonate outside of the cisgender experience, let's say, is welcome. 00:12:05.158 --> 00:12:08.940 And there's so much to say about this. 00:12:09.060 --> 00:12:13.133 But let's start with how did we decide to do this? 00:12:13.133 --> 00:12:16.145 There were so many different directions that we could have gone. 00:12:16.145 --> 00:12:18.166 And I'm actually trying to remember myself. 00:12:18.166 --> 00:12:21.620 was like, what happened two years ago when we started talking? 00:12:21.620 --> 00:12:30.690 I we got very excited about oh how somatic skills could be really helpful within our trans community. 00:12:30.690 --> 00:12:37.133 And then kind of we came up with this beautiful program eventually, which did take us a long time to kind of develop. 00:12:37.133 --> 00:12:43.646 And I love what you said about um that throughout the process, it was always people first. 00:12:43.646 --> 00:12:49.607 was like checking in with each other, making sure we were okay, making sure that, you know. 00:12:49.607 --> 00:12:59.836 we have the space and connection we needed to do this work, which in a way it's reflected in how we develop the curriculum too. 00:13:00.097 --> 00:13:05.801 But let's try to bring ourselves back to our first conversations two years ago. 00:13:05.942 --> 00:13:12.237 And why did we feel that something like this was needed within our community? 00:13:12.877 --> 00:13:26.330 Yeah, for me, I was very conscious of the ways in which I've had a long standing concern for marginalized communities, even before I had the words for it. 00:13:26.330 --> 00:13:28.531 And I didn't really ever understand why. 00:13:28.531 --> 00:13:45.078 Like, there's a part of me that's wondered, like, is it because of my own degree of marginalization from an early standpoint without being known as trans or any of those things, there was a way in which I was um sort of seen as less than by so many. 00:13:45.078 --> 00:13:51.982 And so there was a part of me like, maybe it's because of that that I have this sense of connection with others who are struggling or suffering. 00:13:51.982 --> 00:13:56.115 um There's also that part of me, you know, I'm neuro spicy. 00:13:56.115 --> 00:14:04.270 So, you know, there's a part of me that very much believes in fairness and that is incredibly important, you know, and so. 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:12.014 There was an awareness of, I feel very privileged and have been very privileged in my life at a lot of different levels. 00:14:12.195 --> 00:14:14.236 There's a feeling of wanting to give back. 00:14:14.236 --> 00:14:20.281 And I think this, em you've been doing this work and been a part of community. 00:14:20.281 --> 00:14:32.909 And um I've been really moved by the levels of activism and advocacy that I heard through even your first presentation, but getting to know you. 00:14:32.909 --> 00:14:37.659 m And I've always had this idea of wanting to give back. 00:14:37.659 --> 00:14:54.094 I'd already started a process locally, taking some of the principles and ideas that I had started to develop and work with veterans around trauma healing uh and trying to do it in a way that felt gentle and supportive rather than some of the more traditional models. 00:14:54.094 --> 00:15:02.026 And so for me, it was this idea that we could begin to share these ideas with our community. 00:15:02.144 --> 00:15:12.627 give a shared language that allows us to start to dialogue with one another, learn how to better support one another, and through a very different lens in a lot of ways. 00:15:12.627 --> 00:15:30.362 One that's more somatically informed, more uh of a bottom-up process than this conventional, therapeutic idea of top-down and dominating the body, dominating our emotions through some perceived action that we think is going to be most therapeutic. 00:15:30.506 --> 00:15:46.519 Like how do we support communities to then be able to come together, you know, because so many of our community members have struggled with a lot of uh difficulty, trauma, hardship over the course of coming out. 00:15:46.620 --> 00:15:55.707 And I think there can be a fracturing that happens in relationship because of our, each of our different wounds don't always jive well with each other. 00:15:55.707 --> 00:15:58.849 And how can we find a way to... 00:15:59.274 --> 00:16:07.860 help support the community to come together, especially at a time that's gotten progressively harder over time politically for our community. 00:16:07.860 --> 00:16:27.741 It feels even more important and timely that we have a shared weight of coming together and eventually supporting one another in the long run, uh realizing the sort of collective strength that we have when we come together and sort of in keeping with some of the principles, you know. 00:16:27.741 --> 00:16:33.435 rely on one another, support the sort of community interdependence and solidarity. 00:16:34.683 --> 00:16:35.562 Absolutely. 00:16:35.562 --> 00:16:37.656 I couldn't have said it more beautifully. 00:16:37.656 --> 00:16:55.067 And I think that's one of things I really love about what we're co-creating with this program, The Collective Alchemy of Gender Liberation is that it's not just about somatic skills on an individual level and just like healing on an individual level, but it's on a relational level. 00:16:55.067 --> 00:17:10.384 And like you said, especially at this time of increasing anti-trans hostility, I think we are witnessing even more what sometimes is called lateral violence, like aggression within our own community. 00:17:10.384 --> 00:17:23.319 I've seen people talk about it's because some trans activists in our own community have gone too far, whereas because non-binary people are trying to push the edges of gender too far. 00:17:23.319 --> 00:17:28.665 And I can have a lot of compassion for that and I think that happens in a lot of minoritized communities. 00:17:28.665 --> 00:18:03.842 When we're under attack we go into the survival mode and so it can be easy to think about okay let me look around and who's to blame of the people around me and also who feels safe to blame to a certain degree because you know it doesn't always feel safe to kind of actually call out what's happening systemically in terms of the power over us right and so for me there is so much value in what we're trying to do because it's It's not just like, let's teach some somatic skills through the lens of gender, but it's actually like, let's build capacity within our community. 00:18:03.842 --> 00:18:06.204 Let's build the shared language. 00:18:06.204 --> 00:18:09.866 Let's kind of work together to... 00:18:09.896 --> 00:18:18.310 push back on this colonial white supremacist model, not just of gender, but also of healing, like you said, right? 00:18:18.310 --> 00:18:40.240 This top-down dominance of the prefrontal cortex, more towards this interdependent ecosystem um so that we can actually find strength within our own community and be able to connect because there are so many trans folks who are really isolated or find it difficult. 00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:50.397 to being community and even when we're organizing there can be so many fractures that happen because em we're suffering or in lots of different ways, right? 00:18:50.397 --> 00:19:04.097 Not just emotionally but also in terms of access to resources, access to stable housing for a lot of people, you know, and so when we're all in survival mode or a lot of us are in survival mode, how can we relate to each other? 00:19:04.097 --> 00:19:05.259 And so... 00:19:05.363 --> 00:19:12.395 I think that is so much part of our vision, but I'm curious about what stands out to you from our vision. 00:19:12.395 --> 00:19:22.411 Because as you were talking, that's what kind of came to me, but I'm curious about what you think it's like, the thing that you value the most about what we're trying to co-create. 00:19:23.431 --> 00:19:27.214 Well, I think you spoke a lot to that in what you just shared. 00:19:27.214 --> 00:19:44.850 And the thing that was coming up for me is thinking about how, and we've talked about how there seems to be this convergence of other sort of individuals in our community who are all sort of coming to this recognition of the need for solidarity of one form or fashion. 00:19:44.850 --> 00:19:49.134 You know, had Dean Spade recently on an episode and... 00:19:49.786 --> 00:20:16.286 his fantastic book of Love in a Fucked Up World, which is speaking very directly to these same ideas from a very different lens as an activist, but also supporting how do we support one another in moving towards recognizing the ways in which colonial, capitalistic, other types of forces are creating a fracturing, have created wounds that make it hard to come together. 00:20:16.286 --> 00:20:18.307 and the essential piece of that. 00:20:18.307 --> 00:20:19.698 So that feels at the heart of it. 00:20:19.698 --> 00:20:42.989 And m I love this idea of like, you know, there is the personal body, but there's the larger body of, and like how do like cells coming together and working together rather than like letting these intrusive forces sort of cause um us to struggle in terms of thriving and working together. 00:20:42.989 --> 00:21:14.119 um The other big piece I felt like was really that I liked about this idea is that my own experience has been in my own healing journey that so much of the conventional approaches don't address something that I think is foundational for most of us, which is, know, when we think about when gender emerges, when is it that we start to become aware of a sense of our relationship to this thing called gender that is a part of the world? 00:21:14.119 --> 00:21:23.291 It is at incredibly early ages when most of our experience is not a cognitive experience, it is an embodied experience. 00:21:23.552 --> 00:21:43.483 And when we have been exposed from such an early age repeatedly, whether it, even if it's not hugely traumatic events, just the constant erosion uh of this sort of what I like to refer to as an unintentional, unconscious gaslighting that occurs. 00:21:43.483 --> 00:21:44.211 Mm-hmm. 00:21:44.211 --> 00:21:49.546 most people that are out there, the parents, um others, they're not trying to gaslight. 00:21:49.546 --> 00:22:03.377 It is something that just happens because they are too are bought into this colonialist idea of gender that then teaches someone to disembodied, to not trust the intrinsic messages that are coming up within us. 00:22:03.377 --> 00:22:20.182 And so for me, a huge part of the heart of this is this idea that, and what I love about somatic work is it really bypasses all the intellectual uh ideas of what and how we should be, the idea of roles and patterns that we've been taught. 00:22:20.182 --> 00:22:23.425 And it gets to the heart of like reconnecting with body. 00:22:23.425 --> 00:22:33.313 We're really getting to the foundations of like our bodies will actually help to sort of guide us in the most effective way towards healing. 00:22:33.313 --> 00:22:37.917 It is also in our bodies that we can start to learn to trust ourselves again. 00:22:37.917 --> 00:22:41.790 And in that practice also learn how to support one another. 00:22:41.790 --> 00:22:57.998 Like that instead of getting into ideas of trying to convince or to present a certain perspective, we can meet each other in our emotional bodily experience and allow that to inform how we move forward. 00:22:58.098 --> 00:23:00.780 So to me, this is at the heart of it. 00:23:02.364 --> 00:23:04.254 I love the way you described it. 00:23:04.254 --> 00:23:06.780 I was like, wow, this sounds so cool. 00:23:06.780 --> 00:23:08.403 And I was like, yeah, that's what we're doing. 00:23:08.403 --> 00:23:10.395 But you described it so beautifully. 00:23:10.395 --> 00:23:13.451 And I think that there is something to be said. 00:23:13.451 --> 00:23:16.264 There's a couple of em things I'm thinking about at once. 00:23:16.264 --> 00:23:17.385 So I'm going to. 00:23:18.130 --> 00:23:21.353 But my mouth can only say one thing at a time. 00:23:21.353 --> 00:23:23.693 Isn't that such a limitation sometimes? 00:23:23.693 --> 00:23:41.690 So one part is like what I love about what we created with this program, The Collective Alchemy of Gender Liberation is that it's we're both talking about the individual and the collective body and the connection that we have to the larger ecosystem. 00:23:41.690 --> 00:23:52.197 So we have gone really the down the road of lots of like nature metaphors and we'll talk a bit about em that in more depth in a moment. 00:23:52.197 --> 00:24:08.599 But then there is also em this other piece about When we're talking about the collective body, I think there are so many fractures that because of that colonial rigid gender binary are within our community. 00:24:08.599 --> 00:24:18.864 Even a lot of therapeutic spaces or community spaces are often like, uh you know, trans masculine folks or trans feminine folks kind of separated from one another. 00:24:18.864 --> 00:24:34.471 And I think there is something to be said for us coming from uh different experiences as a trans person, myself and a trans feminine person yourself, like and also coming out at different ages as well. 00:24:34.630 --> 00:24:47.414 Those differences in a way strengthen the container and that's what I'm hoping for participants too, that when we come together from this more embodied... 00:24:47.620 --> 00:24:55.258 grounded place of not just in our prefrontal cortex, but in our kind of fully lived embodied experience. 00:24:55.258 --> 00:25:09.871 There's a sort of transformation alchemy that I think happens and that kind of just expands like the possibilities uh both on an individual level and on a collective level. 00:25:09.871 --> 00:25:11.354 I don't know how that's landing for you. 00:25:11.354 --> 00:25:19.221 I'm just kind of riffing on what you are saying at the moment if that's a word but I'm just curious about that's landing for you. 00:25:20.263 --> 00:25:44.950 No, em think that's the other piece of this is that instead of the more conventional, therapeutic sort of ways of going about this and the ways in which we can, for various reasons, because many of us have gotten into little silos of one form or another and it does sometimes feel easier as a way to reduce, I mean, we are all collecting, have so much we can emotionally contain at any given moment. 00:25:44.950 --> 00:25:50.032 We are all collectively really overburdened by the demands of life. 00:25:50.032 --> 00:25:53.375 our personal histories and the interface between that and the present. 00:25:53.375 --> 00:26:08.238 um And I think any, like it's normal that we might go towards like, oh, all the trans femmes into one group and all the trans mascs and the non-binary and we have all this separation, but I think there is something that's lost profoundly. 00:26:08.238 --> 00:26:18.615 you know, number one, we are a small community and our capacity to push back, to advocate, to support one another, we need all of us in the journey. 00:26:18.615 --> 00:26:25.668 And so, um It's okay that these other sort of communities spring up and they do serve a function. 00:26:25.668 --> 00:26:30.980 I know it's been hugely helpful for me to have a group of other transfems. 00:26:30.980 --> 00:26:39.762 And I've seen in my work sometimes where a transfeminine and transmasculine, like the journeys are really divergent in some ways, right? 00:26:39.762 --> 00:26:49.134 And they can, you know, when we come together, sometimes some of the things that we're pulling for from one another or inviting can feel conflicting. 00:26:49.134 --> 00:26:52.485 And yet in that rub, right, we don't grow. 00:26:52.485 --> 00:26:58.528 um If all we do is stay within our comfort zone, we cannot grow, right? 00:26:58.528 --> 00:27:00.238 We have to stretch outside of that. 00:27:00.238 --> 00:27:15.332 We have to, not to a point where it's overwhelming to our nervous system, but we have to create that rub that creates the potential for us to gain some resiliency, some strength, some capacity to like... 00:27:15.726 --> 00:27:20.582 struggle together with one another towards something larger than oneself. 00:27:20.582 --> 00:27:27.892 When we suffer in this culture that is hyper individualistic and can further encourage our fracturing. 00:27:29.404 --> 00:27:30.214 Absolutely. 00:27:30.214 --> 00:27:42.582 And I think that we have experienced that rub even as we were developing the project in a lot of ways, ah if you can hear some yapping, that's my new puppy for the Gender Stories listeners. 00:27:42.582 --> 00:27:43.923 So apologies for that. 00:27:43.923 --> 00:27:45.063 He's adorable. 00:27:45.063 --> 00:27:47.605 But whenever he hears my voice, he gets very excited. 00:27:47.605 --> 00:27:54.078 um And so we have experienced that kind of rub within our process too, right? 00:27:54.078 --> 00:28:00.955 Because in a way, like you said at the beginning, you know, So many collaborations are focused on a product. 00:28:00.955 --> 00:28:04.098 And we were actually like, relationship first. 00:28:04.115 --> 00:28:11.677 you know, humans first, like, we are way more important than any product that may or may not come out of this collaboration, right? 00:28:11.978 --> 00:28:15.819 And as we, which already is kind of counter cultural, right? 00:28:15.819 --> 00:28:18.840 Because there's always this push, but we have to do the things, right? 00:28:18.840 --> 00:28:25.604 We're putting time into this and time is precious, uh in air quotes, under capitalism, and we should have a product, right? 00:28:25.604 --> 00:28:31.807 But actually, so we already were kind of in a way pushing against that kind of cultural norm. 00:28:31.996 --> 00:28:37.932 And then as we were going through the process, we also started with this much more linear curriculum, right? 00:28:37.932 --> 00:28:41.294 Here is our curriculum, here the skills, right? 00:28:41.294 --> 00:28:46.209 We have all these documents that we were writing in and something wasn't quite coming together. 00:28:46.209 --> 00:28:52.264 And then we stepped back to look at what kind of where the pillars, which actually then became petals. 00:28:52.264 --> 00:29:07.789 Because the more we did this work, the more we realized, hang on a minute, why are we using all this kind of nature, organic metaphors, but then we're talking about the nervous system like it's an engine of a car, right, or a mechanism. 00:29:07.789 --> 00:29:21.817 And so we've also experienced, you know, kind of that rub like, against the culture, against the kind of traditional psychological framework of pathology and mechanics almost of the nervous system. 00:29:21.817 --> 00:29:34.186 And so that's been a journey to come to this, five petals that we came up with of embodiment, know, mystery, transmutation, interdependence and solidarity. 00:29:34.186 --> 00:29:46.746 And we even represented them in a way, in a nonlinear way on our website as a kind of pentacle to really highlight the connection between them and the nonlinearity. 00:29:46.746 --> 00:30:10.717 But it was a process and I'm curious to hear your perspective about how that journey for that process was for you as we were kind of having all those moments of like both insight but also in some ways discomfort, right, of doing something different, of doing something that was moving away from more traditional approaches to mental health in many ways. 00:30:10.803 --> 00:30:21.604 Yeah, I mean, we were sort of collectively working on this project and it did have a bit more of a conventional sort of mental health feel to it. 00:30:22.144 --> 00:30:35.104 And I loved that this process has been very organic in a lot of ways where we just sort of started to talk about what felt like the most important concepts, ideas, how to organize that in a more linear way. 00:30:35.104 --> 00:30:49.291 And then after a while, and I think if I recall correctly, we had a period where We sort of stepped back a little bit and then we came back as we were really looking to and getting ready to launch the project, you know, several months in advance. 00:30:49.291 --> 00:31:07.611 And then we started realizing like, there just feels like, you know, a need to step back from like all the trees that we had started to plant and put down, you know, in this sort of rows and everything um and start to say like, what are the big principles or practices and. 00:31:07.611 --> 00:31:16.668 And it really at the heart of it, you know, arose those concepts of embodiment, mystery, transmutation, interdependence, and then solidarity. 00:31:16.668 --> 00:31:55.734 And we even took some time to figure out what is the right order of these things, you know, and really getting that, you know, at some level, this idea of like focusing on our, our personal embodiment as the starting point, not that this is an individualist journey, individual journey, but that a part of this is also just recognizing that Like, what does it mean to focus on and embody in a culture that really teaches us to disembodied, to push, to disregard how we feel, whether that's based on personal familial needs, whether it's based on issues of personal disability or other factors. 00:31:55.734 --> 00:32:01.240 How do we start to come back to a center that's not driven by... 00:32:01.509 --> 00:32:07.844 all of the conventions, all the crystallized ideas that are out there in the culture about how to live and what you should be doing. 00:32:07.844 --> 00:32:29.219 em And so, and then from that, you know, there was also this awareness of this need for like, and less about, less emphasizing the idea that knowledge is central, but that really it's this, there's, how do we step into the mystery, you know, of this process with one another and within ourselves? 00:32:29.219 --> 00:32:34.692 So like, how do we create space for something new to grow. 00:32:34.752 --> 00:32:46.757 Because if we're constantly just rehearsing the conventional ways of thinking, the conventional narratives, the conventional sort of emotional patterns, then we are not really creating the potential for something new. 00:32:46.757 --> 00:32:50.226 And so to me that was at the heart, you know, really. 00:32:50.226 --> 00:32:55.999 And it's out of that that capacities for change and new ways can emerge, right? 00:32:56.038 --> 00:33:19.481 And gradually as we do that also if we're each doing this journey together, we can start to connect with one another in deeper ways and less sort of, I don't know, like the ways in which we've been fractured by the culture, like ways that are less conventional and taught to us, if that makes sense, more authentic. 00:33:19.856 --> 00:33:23.599 Absolutely, it's about that expensiveness and I think that... 00:33:23.742 --> 00:33:39.526 There is something really profound for me to say that we start from embodiment as trans folks, because in a way I know that personally, like you said, I had an embodied knowledge of gender before I could have the words, right? 00:33:39.526 --> 00:33:51.965 Like the joy that I felt as a five-year-old when people thought I was a little boy and I would just let them think I was a little boy and go with that on the, you know, at the park or on the playground. 00:33:52.298 --> 00:33:54.878 that wasn't coming from an intellectual place. 00:33:54.878 --> 00:33:56.118 I mean, it was the 70s. 00:33:56.118 --> 00:33:57.398 I wasn't on the internet. 00:33:57.398 --> 00:34:10.858 I didn't know what trans people were, but I just knew that I felt joyous in my body and I would just go with it, you know, and that there were people that would see at the park, other kids who thought I was a boy because I never told them any different, right? 00:34:10.858 --> 00:34:14.179 And that joy was so deeply embodied. 00:34:14.179 --> 00:34:28.865 But then when we take our experiences and put them in this like more traditional psychological framework, It's all about how, you know, it's all about emphasizing the dysphoria, the disconnect, right? 00:34:28.865 --> 00:34:34.557 The dissociation between who we are and what our body is like, you know, even the narrative. 00:34:34.557 --> 00:34:45.341 And not to say that the narrative is not helpful or that many people don't feel like they're born in the wrong body, air quotes, but even say wrong body in some ways kind of. 00:34:45.341 --> 00:35:10.152 emphasizing the kind of biological determinism, well, because you're born in that body, that's why you've been assigned this gender instead of because you've been born in this colonial culture, people are not paying attention to you and who you are and letting you expand into who you are, you know, rather than putting all this meaning and significance on your body. 00:35:10.152 --> 00:35:10.512 Right. 00:35:10.512 --> 00:35:41.118 And so in a way, we're really inviting ourselves and each other in this program to really like how do we reclaim the all the gifts that come from embodiment and all the gifts that come from the transmutation of knowing who we are and even the for those of us who choose to undergo em physical transmutation through hormonal intervention or medical intervention, there is a magic to that too, right? 00:35:41.118 --> 00:35:49.974 And that magic is also not new because people have done a lot of medical, of body modification even before Western medicine, right? 00:35:49.974 --> 00:35:58.618 And so think there's something about the expensiveness of that lens and that reclamation of the joy and... 00:35:59.243 --> 00:36:00.903 gifts of embodiment. 00:36:00.903 --> 00:36:03.722 don't know, maybe I'm going on too much of a tangent. 00:36:04.343 --> 00:36:09.563 That's what kind of came to mind as you were talking about our program so beautifully. 00:36:12.003 --> 00:36:13.542 no, no, go for it. 00:36:13.542 --> 00:36:13.981 ahead. 00:36:13.981 --> 00:36:49.735 I was just gonna say, like, coming to the personal, I mean, the thing that, like, uh while there's certainly my version, like, from early on when I was recognizing and had a sense of, oh, I wanna be a girl, I need to be a girl, em something is wrong here, there's that, but, like, from the therapeutic standpoint, I really had this experience that, I'd had an assault that happened very early, know, 13, 14, shortly after, like, I really became aware about this, where I was drawn and my gender identity. 00:36:51.735 --> 00:36:59.935 And I tried to do a lot of different types of therapies that were much more conventional therapeutic approaches. 00:36:59.935 --> 00:37:06.586 And I really put at the center the somatic, I was doing training in somatic experiencing there. 00:37:06.586 --> 00:37:10.468 One of the things I love is this idea that we start from a place of practice. 00:37:10.468 --> 00:37:16.810 It's always about working with ourselves and our own nervous systems as central to this journey. 00:37:16.810 --> 00:37:33.488 And I really credit that my ability to come out at 51 came after having done work around this assault and healing around this assault that was very much paired with the assault was very much connected with me doing something that was. 00:37:33.488 --> 00:37:39.930 even just remotely feminine as these three guys sort of uh assumed and related to me. 00:37:39.930 --> 00:37:52.455 And um as such, you know, I had this as in the semantic experience, this idea of what we call an over coupling of really high intensity with something that felt um alive and authentic and real. 00:37:52.455 --> 00:37:59.138 And it made me very afraid to choose to actually um pursue my identity. 00:37:59.138 --> 00:38:33.063 And so it was really thanks to that work that um allowed me to free myself up and it was really central to this coming back to this idea, which you were talking about earlier that a part of this and what we've been doing is recognizing also, like, cause I came in coming from working with a bunch of veterans, I had this metaphor that I'd come up with to sort of explain, you know, the, we understand about the nervous system from a polyvagal standpoint and trying to take this very technical idea and make it more understandable. 00:38:33.063 --> 00:38:47.932 And I came up with um this metaphor of the three, like that this is like an automatic transmission and there's three different gears from sort of social engagement to sort of what we think of as fight or fight to the freeze response. 00:38:47.932 --> 00:39:16.510 um that was one of the other big moments in our work, in this sort of transition, which was like we had a little bit of like trying to, and I was really appreciated that like, At the moment, while I was really getting a little defensive and struggling, because this was sort of my baby, something I'd created that had worked really well within a veterans community, many of which uh involved working with vehicles and things like that, it worked very well. 00:39:16.510 --> 00:39:21.775 But as we were really exploring, this was another area of incongruence. 00:39:21.775 --> 00:39:31.403 It was a way in which, like the conventional ways we had started to talk about what we wanted to do that felt a little bit staid and... 00:39:31.588 --> 00:39:34.068 stuck within a conventional mental health narrative. 00:39:34.068 --> 00:39:40.690 As we started to expand on that, we started to see that like, hey, uh this doesn't feel congruent. 00:39:40.690 --> 00:39:43.391 There's a lack of organicity and understanding. 00:39:43.391 --> 00:39:52.633 There's way more complexity than this very hierarchical model that uh is, uh while helpful, it is oversimplified. 00:39:52.633 --> 00:40:06.725 And that was another moment that really, I think, pushed us forward towards advancing what feels like something that's more of a congruent model about how to approach um supporting our community. 00:40:07.371 --> 00:40:15.731 And I think that was also a beautiful moment in our relationship because it was a little bit of a rupture in some ways and that we're both activated. 00:40:16.811 --> 00:40:20.871 But we were both able to just like, hang on a minute, let's slow down. 00:40:20.871 --> 00:40:22.751 What is happening here, right? 00:40:22.751 --> 00:40:25.051 And like own our parts. 00:40:25.051 --> 00:40:28.490 And then, you know, I was able to be like, no, this is like. 00:40:28.490 --> 00:40:33.211 I so value the way you think about things and everything that you bring. 00:40:33.211 --> 00:40:36.871 And also it just doesn't feel coherent, right? 00:40:36.871 --> 00:40:49.411 With how we are approaching this or how we are striving to approach this from much more of this kind of, you know, place where there is room for. 00:40:49.606 --> 00:41:16.719 non-linearity, where there is room for mystery, where there is room for complexity, you know, and we were really able to use our somatic skills in a way to really, and I think that has happened a lot in our relationship, but that moment really stands out because I think it could have easily become a broader fracture or brought like some em distance, but from my point of view, at least I feel like it brought us closer. 00:41:16.998 --> 00:41:30.499 And it's also expanding what we're offering to people because now we're kind of playing with a completely different metaphor, which in a lot of ways is more complex and it's giving me a bit of a headache, but in a good way. 00:41:30.499 --> 00:41:49.798 I'm like, yes, are as humans, our nervous system are so much more complex than like an automatic gear, even though there is value also in having those metaphors, you know, and I use them in my practice, but I think we wanted to offer something more organic and more nuanced to the community. 00:41:49.798 --> 00:42:02.947 And I think that is really beautiful because it's inviting us into really bringing this kind of decolonial perspective all the way through our work. 00:42:03.048 --> 00:42:03.920 Right? 00:42:03.920 --> 00:42:27.950 all the way in our relationship, all the way through the work and really um trying to expand some of those ideas em into something that is still, um you know, that we can still explain to people, but that honors the complexity of us as humans and also honors kind of people's choice in a way. 00:42:27.950 --> 00:42:35.579 Because I think the way we're working with this model is like, And it might work differently for you. 00:42:35.579 --> 00:42:39.000 And in this model, there is still room. 00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:45.554 Because I don't know about you, but I've experienced a lot in traditional mental health approaches and psychologists especially. 00:42:45.554 --> 00:42:46.624 This is the model. 00:42:46.624 --> 00:42:49.176 If you don't fit, that's your problem. 00:42:49.176 --> 00:42:50.676 The model stays. 00:42:51.097 --> 00:42:55.997 And I think we're trying to create a model where there is room. 00:42:55.997 --> 00:43:00.891 for that kind of expansiveness and diversity of experience. 00:43:01.192 --> 00:43:08.519 I don't know if, yeah, I don't know how clear I'm being, so I'm curious about how that's landing for you right now. 00:43:08.519 --> 00:43:10.365 Yeah, yeah. 00:43:10.365 --> 00:43:18.483 so I like this idea, what you're talking about, that so many of the conventional approaches have a bit more of a linear, predictable narrative. 00:43:18.483 --> 00:43:24.144 There isn't as much flexibility in how do we approach these circumstances. 00:43:24.144 --> 00:43:32.788 And it gets people stuck in this idea that if I don't um align with this, what's wrong with me can be one of the narratives. 00:43:32.788 --> 00:43:37.389 This sort of self-questioning that there's something wrong, that this thing isn't working with me. 00:43:37.472 --> 00:44:35.900 And I think what's really important that as we've been stepping away from the linear models, as we've been looking at things that feel more circular in some ways, that more organic, I think what we've been stepping back from allows us to see and create space for people to come in and bring their complexity, that we're not driving the ship in a very predictable way that would be easier for us, but to really instead say, Like we're going to give some ideas, some structures, some principles, have exercises that sort of hopefully open things up and in such a way that differences are going to emerge in the group, know, differences around how does this land, you know, that we then that creates the that we're going to be meeting the complexity of the people that we're working with and really trying to center those who are participating in these. 00:44:35.900 --> 00:45:12.361 um retreats, these trainings, however you want to conceive of them, that this is less of a, we are the experts, we're the ones dictating a process, this conventional sort of top-down sort of dominant model, it's much more sort of like, we are merely introducing some ideas, hopefully creating the safe space for each of us to start to step into the mystery and the mess a bit, to start to encounter that with each other and and do so in a way that hopefully feels safe enough, you know, that we can... 00:45:12.361 --> 00:45:26.627 um start to let those parts of ourselves that are messy, that are difficult, start to be met by others and understood in a different way. 00:45:26.627 --> 00:45:31.781 Seeing as coming from a place of authentic vulnerability and uncertainty. 00:45:31.781 --> 00:45:33.420 any thoughts you have on that. 00:45:33.420 --> 00:45:41.164 No, I think you've got the thread beautifully, I think it kind of goes back to the beginning almost of like, and it speaks to the larger vision. 00:45:41.164 --> 00:45:48.628 You we talked about how our own process has been centering relationship and centering heart and centering connection. 00:45:48.628 --> 00:45:51.129 And this is what we want for the larger vision, right? 00:45:51.129 --> 00:45:54.190 We don't want people to just like come do the training. 00:45:54.557 --> 00:46:09.248 and then everybody brings it back to their individual lives, never connecting again, which is why, well as like the, in February, we will have our, the first time that we deliver this training, I can't wait to see how it lands. 00:46:09.248 --> 00:46:15.392 But then as well as having like the intensive retreat, there will be integration sessions, right? 00:46:15.392 --> 00:46:21.657 And our hope is then that people might wanna come back for like, a second phase and a third phase. 00:46:21.657 --> 00:46:35.390 And the idea is to build, know, to start more from like, okay, let's have a common framework, common language, work with ourselves, that experience with each other, but really focusing on self in the first part. 00:46:35.390 --> 00:46:46.643 And then the second part, now let's really start to bring it into relationship and then really into kind of this kind of co-creation piece, right, between participants. 00:46:46.643 --> 00:47:05.358 And so it's really about in a way creating more of a movement of how do we show up kind of not driven, constantly driven by the urgency of survival and having to push back on all the systemic violence in the world, which I mean, it's totally necessary, right? 00:47:05.358 --> 00:47:07.068 But it also depletes us. 00:47:07.068 --> 00:47:33.801 But also how do we then kind of nurture each other, you know, um in a way makes me think of like, how so many black trans women in our movement have also created spaces for people to come together in our community and be nurtured, be cared for, be truly seen, uh Exactly as people are. 00:47:33.801 --> 00:47:38.173 And I think that that is not always accessible to everybody. 00:47:38.173 --> 00:48:00.378 And so I think in a way we are walking into this legacy, right, of wanting to create uh environments are nurturing and recognizing the one of the obstacles to creating nurturing care towards each other sometimes is kind of all the fracturing both individually and collectively that we experience because of trauma. 00:48:00.378 --> 00:48:30.167 And that's the first time I think that I framed it that way, but I was really feeling, especially Miss Major was like, you know, our most recent ancestor, was really, you know, thinking about her work and what she created and real feeling like, oh, this is part of the legacy, this is part of this work and um how can we kind of contribute to this beautiful work with the skills we have. 00:48:30.167 --> 00:48:37.014 And I'm curious about that landing because that is the first time I think I've named that so clearly even though we have talked about. 00:48:37.048 --> 00:48:42.161 know, trans-sesters and gender-blessed ancestors, but that feels like an important part to name. 00:48:42.161 --> 00:48:45.932 That it's not like we're coming out of, with this out of nowhere, right? 00:48:45.932 --> 00:48:55.469 There are so many teachings and people that inform us and yes, so I'm curious about, No, no, go for it. 00:48:55.469 --> 00:48:57.729 I'm curious about how that's landing for you. 00:48:58.210 --> 00:49:24.380 Yeah, I I love that you're saying that and um there we are really we're standing on the shoulders of other people who have lifted us up and made it possible to be sharing these ideas and there's a diversity of perspective and yes like the the amount of collective safety that has been created for so many people. 00:49:24.680 --> 00:49:52.980 I don't know that I would have come out at 51 had there not been the movement of so many individuals, especially moved by the black trans women over the years and creating space for us to then launch something that hopefully in some ways to me feels like a circling back to a model where it's like mental health work is very expensive. 00:49:52.980 --> 00:49:55.802 It's a hard, costly journey for many people. 00:49:55.802 --> 00:49:57.823 It's not accessible to many of us. 00:49:57.823 --> 00:50:01.465 And it's not that this is going to totally replace mental health work. 00:50:01.465 --> 00:50:03.126 I don't think that's possible. 00:50:03.126 --> 00:50:18.229 But what I do, I mean, a big part of the vision coming back to what you were saying is this idea that, you know, through doing this work within ourselves, in community with one another, and starting to develop a shared language. 00:50:18.229 --> 00:50:33.353 You because I think that's one of the complications is we an incredibly diverse array of people in our community, from different racial backgrounds, different disabilities, know, different ethnic backgrounds, spiritual backgrounds. 00:50:33.353 --> 00:50:40.304 And those things also are hard differences to travel by themselves. 00:50:40.304 --> 00:50:47.905 But then when we put all these things together, you know, how do we find ways to come together that can support one another? 00:50:47.905 --> 00:51:10.494 And I think one of the things that um feels very near and dear to me, and I loved that it felt like for both of us, this has been really important, which is this idea of like, we can start to hopefully build something that starts to develop semi-autonomous or autonomous communities uh of support in different locations. 00:51:10.494 --> 00:51:20.480 One of the original ideas, even though we're gonna launch this, You know, in February is more of a online uh service, which that will have certain benefits. 00:51:20.480 --> 00:51:28.725 It also doesn't quite help us to always work with the embodied experiences fully because we're doing it through a digital medium. 00:51:28.786 --> 00:51:35.310 But like our original idea is that we're going to be dropping these skills in in person in different cities throughout the U.S. 00:51:35.310 --> 00:51:42.187 And hopefully through that, people will come that know one another, that then can gradually start to come together. 00:51:42.187 --> 00:51:49.568 support one another, create all types of things that we can yet, like can't even imagine yet, right? 00:51:49.568 --> 00:51:56.171 And in different settings where there's an artistic settings or more fit conventionally sort of support group settings. 00:51:58.492 --> 00:52:23.422 My hope is that this eventually grows large enough that we have something that's analogous to like, you know, having come from the addictions world, something like a 12 step model, not so rigid, not so, you know, limiting in some ways, but really that where there's a core language, a core commitment, you know, and through that, I think that then is going to bleed out into the larger community. 00:52:23.422 --> 00:52:44.641 You know, if we, if we have been doing this work and we're feeling held and we're feeling safer within ourselves, one of the core principles, you know, despite some of the complexities of the attachment model and some of the complications of it, One of the things that's lovely about it is this idea of like, it's insecurity. 00:52:44.641 --> 00:52:55.524 It's when we feel safe within ourselves and with one another that we feel safe to expand into territory that is more stressful, risky, threatening. 00:52:55.524 --> 00:53:06.283 um And that's where I'm hoping this will eventually lead to an emergence of something um that can really give back to our community in a. 00:53:06.283 --> 00:53:14.339 another way, hopefully moving the needle a little further from all those things that our transcestors have committed and given to us. 00:53:14.557 --> 00:53:15.518 Absolutely. 00:53:15.518 --> 00:53:27.698 I think that is also what is a little bit different about what we're doing is that, like you said, our hope is really to plant those seeds and then for people to just nurture them and see how they bloom. 00:53:27.698 --> 00:53:34.198 It's not like, neither of us feel like proprietorial about it. 00:53:34.198 --> 00:54:11.074 Of course we want to, we're putting in the work and it's always good to like, know that we're building on other people's work and other people will build on our work and we have that openness to that and in a way we don't know what it's going to be we don't have this image of like we're going to create an institute or we're going to like trademark anything it's like we're going to scatter those seeds to the wind you know and we're going to see where the land and then in a way that's going to be like you know They're going to be taken into different communities and bloom into things that we can't even imagine at the moment. 00:54:11.074 --> 00:54:20.565 Again, this very organic model in some ways of in this openness to the alchemic. 00:54:20.686 --> 00:54:23.048 mystery in some way of transmutation. 00:54:23.048 --> 00:54:30.874 But yes, we have some ideas, we have some seeds to plant, and we're going to plant them and then people are going to take them all over the place. 00:54:30.874 --> 00:54:32.876 Hopefully, that's our hope, right? 00:54:32.876 --> 00:54:46.428 Which I think is a good segue into like, I mean, we've spoken a little bit about what is our hope that people will get out of it, but Also, how do we think this might support us as a community in this moment? 00:54:46.428 --> 00:54:52.887 Because we're very clear that this is a T for T, trans-for-trans somatic skills program. 00:54:52.887 --> 00:54:57.553 And so I'm curious about how you feel the... 00:54:57.553 --> 00:55:16.889 oh importance or the relevance of our contribution to this particular moment where we're seeing so much anti-trans sentiment coming at us and in a way triggering a lot of that survival that we're trying to kind of expand beyond in many ways. 00:55:18.123 --> 00:55:19.647 Yeah, mean, for me, the... 00:55:19.647 --> 00:55:36.447 um at the heart of this is the idea that like we have this culture that is creating like sort of turning up the ever like all constantly on us. 00:55:36.447 --> 00:55:58.528 So many of the anti-trans laws that are going on, so many of the ways in which so many, know, especially our trans kids, you know, that are out there and who are no longer able to access or may have limited capacity to access um the needed, whether it's hormone therapy or eventually getting to a place of surgeries when the timing is right. 00:55:58.528 --> 00:56:09.062 And uh then just the ways in which there's all this uncertainty about how are we, um what is our safety in moving through the world? 00:56:09.062 --> 00:56:21.347 There's such a ratcheting up of survival level responses, like the terror, like many of us are living with frequent moments of high anxiety, of terror. 00:56:21.347 --> 00:56:24.207 of being afraid to go outside of our own home. 00:56:24.207 --> 00:56:35.007 I'm working with people who had claimed their identity and have retreated from it and are hiding, you know, have detransitioned, you know, but not really. 00:56:35.007 --> 00:56:41.787 They're still wanting to be able to reclaim it, but the environment feels so toxic that it's hard to do. 00:56:41.787 --> 00:56:50.842 And so to me, as the heat is getting turned up, as we are dealing with more events that are naturally going to like... 00:56:50.902 --> 00:57:14.859 You know, like if I wasn't um as far as I am in my own journey, I could envision like going backwards if I hadn't dealt with some of the traumas of assault and worrying about like how is someone in the, like the risks of assault are greater now it seems, you know, and um might I want to retreat, pull back, shrink the world I travel in? 00:57:14.859 --> 00:57:19.711 Some of which is inherently necessary for some of us depending on where we live, what. 00:57:19.711 --> 00:57:21.302 what cities, what states. 00:57:21.302 --> 00:57:45.130 um So to me, a huge part of this is like wherever we are, how do we meet one another in places that create the potential to get through this moment, um find ways of thriving, know, and in the connection, feel a sense of vitality of being met, being seen, being affirmed, being valued. 00:57:45.130 --> 00:57:54.336 um I think that that, like, it's going to naturally then lead to... 00:57:54.336 --> 00:58:07.108 um when people feel that way, will feel more of a sense of like, what do I feel are the challenges I can take on in the midst of that? 00:58:07.108 --> 00:58:19.007 Whether it's activism, whether it's merely being willing to speak within our families to someone that might be disapproving, or be sort of ambassadors in smaller or larger ways. 00:58:19.007 --> 00:58:31.643 I think it creates that capacity to effectuate change because if we retreat too much and we're not seen, if we're not like, and again, this isn't a journey that all of us need to be. 00:58:31.643 --> 00:58:41.123 Some of us like in the military, one of the things that, you know, there's all the people on what we call the front lines dealing with some of the most frightening circumstances. 00:58:41.123 --> 00:58:53.623 And frankly, it's mostly the BIPOC community, trans members that are dealing with the front lines, not because out of choice, but because they're just forced into those positions in a lot of ways. 00:58:53.743 --> 00:58:54.097 But. 00:58:54.097 --> 00:59:03.510 anyone from the front lines, regardless of identity, all the way to those like working with letters, speaking in ways that feel safe, or working within families. 00:59:03.510 --> 00:59:14.023 I think it just creates a potential to allow us to still remain being seen to the degree that we feel comfortable and safe to do so and start to have an impact on the culture. 00:59:14.023 --> 00:59:22.346 um I think that's gonna be what helps us get through in the long run, know, helps us survive together, create safety with one another. 00:59:22.346 --> 00:59:32.219 um and also gradually create a sense that like, we're all still here, we're not leaving, you know? 00:59:32.400 --> 00:59:37.764 And I think, yeah, I mean, those are the main things that occurred to me. 00:59:37.764 --> 00:59:40.425 I could say more, but I can also keep rambling. 00:59:40.894 --> 00:59:43.014 no, I so agree. 00:59:43.014 --> 00:59:52.325 I mean, you can absolutely keep talking because everything you said is so, um I think it's so reflective of the work we've been trying to do. 00:59:52.345 --> 00:59:57.530 And I think there's something about, I love what you said about, it's also about creating safety with one another, right? 00:59:57.530 --> 01:00:04.557 uh Not all of us are gonna be safe to like um do that kind of more... 01:00:04.557 --> 01:00:12.422 um coming head to head in some ways with the systemic hate. 01:00:12.422 --> 01:00:16.562 And a lot of us are not going to have any choice also on the matter. 01:00:16.562 --> 01:00:22.442 And so being able to find community, finding safety with each other is so important. 01:00:22.442 --> 01:00:27.902 There is a lot of talk even on social media about the importance of community and how we keep each other safe. 01:00:27.902 --> 01:00:30.461 But then a lot of people are like, but how do we do it? 01:00:30.461 --> 01:00:31.762 What does it mean? 01:00:31.762 --> 01:00:33.662 What does it mean to care for one another? 01:00:33.662 --> 01:00:35.666 What does it mean to keep each other safe? 01:00:35.666 --> 01:00:51.017 how can we come together across differences sometimes and how can we learn to trust each other or even being able to tell each other, ouch, that was hurtful, let's like slow down and let's figure out what's happening relationally, right? 01:00:51.017 --> 01:00:52.657 And our hope is that. 01:00:53.347 --> 01:01:06.864 that we can facilitate the learning of some of those skills that keep us connected, that keep us um in that web of relationship in a way that kind of nurtured the mycelium. 01:01:06.864 --> 01:01:12.066 I know I went with the seed metaphor earlier, now I'm going with my fungi metaphor. 01:01:12.066 --> 01:01:29.859 But in a way, we are trying to really strengthen that mycelium network of our trans community um with those kind of somatic relational skills that we center and the space that we want to hold that it is going to be a very relational space as well. 01:01:30.017 --> 01:01:30.791 Yeah. 01:01:30.950 --> 01:01:34.981 I feel like I could keep talking with you for hours, which we do often. 01:01:34.981 --> 01:01:39.774 And we will keep doing as we keep developing our program. 01:01:39.774 --> 01:01:42.826 But I want to be respectful of your time and the listeners' time. 01:01:42.826 --> 01:01:55.242 And so I wonder if there is anything else that we haven't talked about around The Collective Alchemy of Gender Liberation that you were hoping that we would cover or that you wanted to make sure we talked about. 01:01:56.289 --> 01:02:11.888 um I think one of the things we were talking about is how um this goes beyond, like we're really a very small community and um We can only do so much. 01:02:11.888 --> 01:02:22.813 And I think the cis community, the broader community has, I think, more potential to effectuate change in some ways than we do. 01:02:23.214 --> 01:02:29.507 They have a certain privilege and an access to influence others by speaking on behalf of us. 01:02:29.507 --> 01:02:42.682 So I think our jobs in some ways, not that it's something that all of us need to do, our circumstances are different, but I think to the degree that we can be in relationship with other cis folks. 01:02:42.682 --> 01:02:50.422 It allows them to hopefully carry some of the, is to see and hear our personal stories. 01:02:50.422 --> 01:03:03.193 I know for myself, one of the things I did on Facebook, I'm not like on social media all that much, but one of the things I felt like I called to do at one point was to say, here are some. 01:03:03.392 --> 01:03:07.702 of the types of things that I deal with that are not the big traumatic events. 01:03:07.702 --> 01:03:18.606 Here's just the everyday anxieties of inviting a contractor into my house and having someone who, most contractors tend to be conservative. 01:03:18.606 --> 01:03:22.187 I live in an area where there's a fair bit of people who are conservative. 01:03:22.187 --> 01:03:25.268 Like what, like how am I safe? 01:03:25.268 --> 01:03:27.028 Simple things like that. 01:03:27.028 --> 01:03:51.832 And through starting to raise awareness with one another that we can hopefully have the cis folks that are out there, that are in relationship with us, that witness us, see us, see and normalize our existence, that they can also push back, advocate and do a lot of the work that we cannot do, since our voices are often diminished in the eyes of those who have power. 01:03:51.832 --> 01:04:04.874 So I don't know your thoughts on like just other aspects of how like maybe our cis allies and what's the term, more than allies, accomplices, yes. 01:04:04.874 --> 01:04:05.566 that's it. 01:04:05.566 --> 01:04:09.173 You know, like how they might be able to further support us too. 01:04:09.252 --> 01:04:11.499 Absolutely, you know, I think that... 01:04:11.888 --> 01:04:18.481 cis folks also like, you know, one of the premises of gender stories is that we all have a relationship with gender, right? 01:04:18.481 --> 01:04:23.403 That's why I have had a lot of cis folks as guests on the podcast. 01:04:23.403 --> 01:04:32.968 And I've been intentionally been focusing more on trans non-binary gender expansive to spirit folks this season because of the times we're going through. 01:04:33.288 --> 01:04:41.812 the premise for me is that all of us have a relationship with gender, even those of us who are a gender or reject binary genders in the way live in this culture. 01:04:41.812 --> 01:04:43.673 and have to deal with it. 01:04:43.673 --> 01:04:54.662 And so what I would love to see from cis accomplices is like pushing back on this rigid gender uh binary and also put some resources if they have them, right? 01:04:54.662 --> 01:05:08.932 Not everybody is economically privileged just because they're cis, but maybe for the more privileged uh cis folks, especially cis white folks, how can they contribute to their local mutual aid and trans organizations? 01:05:08.932 --> 01:05:11.664 And if they feel moved to support this work. 01:05:11.664 --> 01:05:15.878 We are going to charge for this because we've got bills to pay, right? 01:05:15.878 --> 01:05:24.908 We're trans people ourselves and we know, you know, that usually trans folks are not paid as much, know, underemployed, all those kind of things. 01:05:24.908 --> 01:05:26.690 We want to support our families. 01:05:26.690 --> 01:05:31.014 And so we are going to charge money for our program. 01:05:31.014 --> 01:05:41.189 Well, my hope is that some of our cis allies will choose to contribute so that trans and trans folks, you know, want to access this and don't have the financial means. 01:05:41.189 --> 01:05:44.340 I mean, we're not going to turn away anybody from LACO funds. 01:05:44.360 --> 01:05:48.602 And also, I think that creating this kind of mutuality and community. 01:05:48.602 --> 01:05:54.394 so if there are any cis listeners who are interested in supporting this, keep an eye on our website. 01:05:54.394 --> 01:05:58.047 All the links are going to be on the episode description. 01:05:58.047 --> 01:06:01.060 So the website for The Collective Alchemy of Gender Liberation. 01:06:01.060 --> 01:06:03.582 is going to be in the episode description too. 01:06:03.582 --> 01:06:17.373 And soon we're going to have a way for you to donate and maybe even to donate in a way that's tax deductible so that you get a little bit of an advantage because this is the dominant culture we live in. 01:06:18.054 --> 01:06:25.139 But finding a way of having that exchange, having that support as well as doing the work. 01:06:25.220 --> 01:06:30.844 Because I think often what happens is that us as trans folks are doing the work of educating. 01:06:30.844 --> 01:06:38.544 the work of organizing, work of volunteering a lot of hours in making sure that cis folks are educated. 01:06:38.544 --> 01:06:51.134 And I think it's time to call in our kind of cis accomplices and be like, hey, we need you to do the work, but we also need you to support us because the reality is that I know that we... 01:06:51.260 --> 01:06:55.952 are not going to have the same opportunity as many of our cis colleagues. 01:06:55.952 --> 01:06:58.413 We're not going to have the same platforms. 01:06:58.413 --> 01:07:00.975 And we're not going to have the same level of financial access. 01:07:00.975 --> 01:07:02.515 That's just facts, right? 01:07:02.515 --> 01:07:05.577 And so we want that flow within our community. 01:07:05.577 --> 01:07:15.981 And if there are any uh trans and binary gender-experiencing uh two-spirit folks who listening and who are interested in our program, also please come to our website. 01:07:15.981 --> 01:07:18.803 Our first offering is going to be in February. 01:07:18.803 --> 01:07:28.124 uh As you said, McKenzie is going to online because we decided that was the most peaceful and accessible and also COVID safe at the moment. 01:07:28.204 --> 01:07:35.684 And just safe from RSV and flu and all the other respiratory stuff that goes around this time of the year. 01:07:36.304 --> 01:07:40.644 But also if you want to bring us to your community, contact us and let us know. 01:07:40.644 --> 01:07:56.038 We are really willing to kind of work with you to try and strengthen the mycelium network, scatter the seeds, choose whichever metaphor speaks to you, beautiful gender stories listeners. 01:07:56.038 --> 01:07:59.599 Anything else that we wanna say at the end of this episode? 01:07:59.599 --> 01:08:05.431 I know it's been a little bit different because it's really a conversation about our joint project rather than me just interviewing you. 01:08:05.431 --> 01:08:09.042 But yeah, anything else you wanna add? 01:08:10.156 --> 01:08:16.688 I think I wanted to come back to something that you had said earlier that I had meant to say, respond to and had forgotten. 01:08:16.688 --> 01:08:33.055 And that is just that I think you were talking about the ways in which, em you know, we're talking about how these seeds may gradually expand and create something that we're standing on, that we were talking about this idea that we're standing on the shoulders of. 01:08:33.055 --> 01:08:53.559 And I really view that, like, I think one of the things I loved about the project is that we were really believing that um each one of these retreats, trainings, whatever we end up calling them, is actually going to be something where the community is giving back to us. 01:08:53.559 --> 01:08:55.729 This is a project in evolution. 01:08:55.729 --> 01:09:01.471 This is like we are taking what knowledge we have up to this point, but then we're going to be meeting. 01:09:01.471 --> 01:09:18.341 And we've talked from the very get-go how much we both value this idea that we're going to be putting this out there, but we're going to be not just giving, we're going to be receiving and growing and modifying this project in such a way that hopefully it advances, improves. 01:09:18.341 --> 01:09:38.088 I hope that we have other professionals that care to join and become a part of this and gradually grow something and take their own special skills and put their own twists, ideas onto it so that uh we just keep uh building a stronger and stronger platform and pathways. 01:09:38.088 --> 01:09:42.842 to greater liberation for our community. 01:09:42.884 --> 01:09:44.979 that felt important to come back to. 01:09:45.666 --> 01:10:01.653 What a beautiful, I think that's a beautiful full stop on this episode that I'm sure that we'll have more to say, but I love ending on that because in a way we started from our relational, our processes speed and we end with like we want this to be a relational process. 01:10:01.653 --> 01:10:03.775 It's not us coming in as experts. 01:10:03.775 --> 01:10:15.820 This is actually a relational process that is going to grow with us and it's going to really be nourished by all the contributions that participants are also going to bring. 01:10:15.820 --> 01:10:18.704 So what a beautiful way to kind of bring it back. 01:10:18.704 --> 01:10:20.284 Thank you, Mackenzie. 01:10:20.748 --> 01:10:21.811 Thank you. 01:10:22.469 --> 01:10:25.539 so much gratitude for you and this process. 01:10:25.539 --> 01:10:27.181 Thank you so much. 01:10:27.201 --> 01:10:33.324 And for all of you gender stories listeners, thank you uh for being part of this journey. 01:10:33.324 --> 01:10:43.878 Thank you for keep listening to this podcast, which is really a labor of love as far as I'm concerned and a love letter to everybody who has ever thought about gender. 01:10:43.878 --> 01:10:47.791 And please have a look at all the links. 01:10:47.791 --> 01:10:50.832 They're going to be in the episode description if you're watching this on YouTube. 01:10:50.832 --> 01:11:07.561 It's gonna be in the description below and follow us for our website follow us through the Instagram I'm also gonna share in the episode description and also Just take the time to nurture your own selves. 01:11:07.561 --> 01:11:20.496 Take the time to nurture your beautiful body minds and move into expansion with yourselves and one another as much as it's possible and safe for you to do so. 01:11:20.516 --> 01:11:24.618 And until next time, take care of yourselves and each other. 01:11:27.059 --> 01:11:27.851 Bye. 01:11:27.851 --> 01:11:29.043 Take good care.