The Village Halls Podcast
A podcast for anyone involved in the running of Britain's 10,000 village, church and community and anyone interested in the vital community services they provide.
The Village Halls Podcast
Caring for your Village Hall Floor
Unlock the secrets to preserving the heart of your community as we uncover the art of floor maintenance in village halls with renowned experts Tim Derbyshire from Total Floor Care and Graham Hickman from Junckers. You'll learn why choosing hardwoods like oak and beech over softwoods can make all the difference in durability and sustainability. We dissect the vital construction principles for creating robust new floors, whether on concrete or joists, and share essential techniques to assess the refurbishing potential of existing surfaces—all crucial insights for those responsible for maintaining these important spaces.
Moving beyond the basics, this episode shines a light on the importance of specialist advice for maintaining and insuring the thousands of sprung wooden floors across the country. By consulting trusted professionals like Junckers-approved contractors, listeners will discover how these partnerships can prevent premature replacements and save valuable resources. With real-life examples, we illustrate the impact of informed decision-making and the role it plays in preserving both the structural integrity and budget of village halls.
Hello, my name is Marc Smith and welcome to the Village Halls podcast sponsored by Allied Westminster, the UK's largest specialist provider of village hall insurance and the home of Village Guard. Welcome to another episode of the Village Halls podcast. Today we're going to be discussing floors. The more research I've done on this, the more interesting it becomes.
Marc Smith:Village Hall floors have a hard life. If you were to treat the floor in your house the same as you did the village hall, you'd replace it every year. So how does a floor stand up to parent and toddler groups, dances, markets or fairs, sports performances or any other events? To help us answer these age-old life questions are Tim Darbyshire from Total Floor Care, graham Hickman from Junckers and our regular guest Gavin Mitchell, the MD of Allied Westminster. Thank you all for joining us. Thank you.
Marc Smith:So now to start with. The reason we're doing this podcast was because there was an instance where a village hall was quoted for a brand new floor where instead, all they needed was a refurbishment, which we'll chat about later on, but first, briefly, I'd like to cover brand new floors. So graham and tim J build floors for all types of buildings, so domestic and public. If you were to start, sorry, but this is a pun. If you were to start from the ground up, what is the best type of flooring to put down? Because on the forums I've been reading, some suggestions of carpet were mentioned, but I cannot think of anything worse in a public space. So what would you do in the world of village halls and the type of traffic they get?
Graham Hickman:So I'm a wood floor manufacturer on the wood care side, but I would always put down a wooden floor realistically, for the durability, for the longevity, for the sustainability. It's a floor that gives you the ability to refurbishment, or to refurbish rather numerous times. It won't stain. Um, yeah, I mean it's it. To me it's the hands-down winner.
Marc Smith:Is it a specific type of wood that we'd use, like I think you can't use? Uh well, I suppose maybe you would. I might be wrong. It's like softwoods or hardwoods. Is there anything in particular you would recommend? For I suppose up here we always have caleys and there's always a lot of dancing and you know they could be high heels, so all this could be damaging the floor. So what type of wood is really the recommended for the village hall? I would.
Tim Derbyshire:I'd say probably. I mean historically. What has been used has been pine for many, many years ago. Most people will tend to go down the beach or the oak route because it's so much harder wearing.
Marc Smith:Simple as that yes, I, I was going to. Actually I I assumed it was a hard way, but I didn't realize you could use pine as well. I take it it's it's all all down to cost, is that?
Tim Derbyshire:I suppose that would be the overall reasoning behind using a certain type of wood and aesthetics well that's yes, that's true, yeah, yeah, I think I think maybe it's been understood that pine was historically being used for many years. It's now been changed to be something that's a little bit better than basically going to be oak and uh and beach, little bit better than basically going to be oak and uh, and beach, which is, which is the harder profile.
Tim Derbyshire:Ah, right, right. The problem is that pine's very soft and will. If you've got steady hills on there, you'll, you'll, you'll get a mark in there. And it's the same with uh, even uh chairs. You know, when people uh drive chairs and there's basically no fell feet underneath the chairs, that will cause a big impression on it excellent.
Marc Smith:So, tim, you actually um build the floors up. So what's the pros if you were, if you were starting from scratch, what is the way, like? What's kind of sub floor to put down? What is the the process of, actually before you even put the floor on top? If there's someone building a village hall from scratch, what's the to make the perfect floor? What would you be doing?
Tim Derbyshire:Well, you either go for basically a concrete or laid onto joists. So if it was a concrete floor, obviously you need to make sure that it's dry. If it's not dry, you probably see an underlayment there and then build it up from there for onwards, so you can put, obviously, a foam connection down there and then you can lay the boards on top of that.
Marc Smith:Or if it's onto joists, you can lay direct on there so I suppose obviously most village halls that we're listing will have a floor already, so we'll have to cover that. So if a customer was to call you up about the state of their floor, what's, how would you assess? Have you turned up on site? What's? How would you assess the floor?
Tim Derbyshire:well, I think, basically, when you actually go to site, you you're literally just going around the perimeter of the rooms to see if there's any movement there. If there's any, um, a lot of replacement of boards, that's a bit of a? Uh, almost like a warning figure. Um, you're then looking at basically measuring the thickness of the boards between the the joists. Um, you know, if he's only talking about two mil thick, um, you know it's on its last legs. If you've, if you've got a board that's probably about sort of six to eight mil, it's perfectly good to sand if you were to put a brand new floor down?
Marc Smith:what is the the thickness of a board if you're starting like that?
Tim Derbyshire:it's about 22 mil?
Marc Smith:oh really, is it that thick? All right, right, yeah, well, so, yeah, right, okay then. So how? So I take it most floors can be saved if you're putting down 22 mil boards, I take it most floors can be saved and made you again, time and time again exactly.
Tim Derbyshire:Yeah, I mean I think you can, probably. You can get away with probably about eight, eight sands, depending upon you know the contractor that's being used. Um and it's all. It's all depending upon how well the floor has been looked after yeah, yeah so so much is down to the maintenance of that floor.
Graham Hickman:Both myself and tim will have seen lots and lots of floors where, in fairness, the village hall thought the floor was ruined such was the condition of the floor. But but a sand and seal will bring that floor back to life. That surface will retain that protection it had originally and it will be a wonderful looking floor again.
Marc Smith:All right. So I suppose, if the village hall does everything yourself and Tim recommends, so how long? This is obviously an open question. But how long should a floor actually last if it's an average size and average use village hall if they do everything that is recommended?
Graham Hickman:If you do everything that's recommended. We would love to see a scrub and seal done every sort of two years to really keep up that protection. But life expectancy you're probably looking at quite comfortably if you keep up with that sort of 60 years.
Graham Hickman:It really will quite often outlast the building, but you need to look after that floor to attain that sort of level. You can't. And again, we've been to many floor inspections where where nobody will do anything for the floor for 20 years and then wonder why it doesn't look as good and and and tim may be struggling to bring it back to the sort of life it should have.
Marc Smith:Yeah, so J also helps to maintain floors. So do the Yunkers manufacture their own products? Is that correct?
Graham Hickman:No, absolutely so. J started off in the 1930s manufacturing wooden floors and we branched out in the 1950s and started developing our wood care side with that in the 1950s and started developing our wood care side with that. So yes, we manufacture the wooden floors but we also manufacture the lacquer, oils and cleaners to make sure that floor stays as good as it can do for as long as it can do.
Marc Smith:Right. So, Gavin, you had a case where there was fire damage in a village hall and the loss adjuster recommended a brand new floor for £70,000. When an expert came in the floor was refurbished at the cost of £6,000. Obviously that's incredible for an insurance company, but my question would be why is there such a huge discrepancy? Surely anyone in that business would be able to assess and come to the same conclusion.
Gavin Mitchell:Well, fortunately we nipped that one in the bud. I think the problem is that you know you have a generalist approach to many things Now, particularly sprung wooden floors. You know the common features in village halls, schools, church halls and similar community spaces and these floors are both beautiful and functional but they require specialist care. As we're hearing, and unfortunately we often in the insurance market see a kind of a generalist approach to repair or restoration after an incident, whether it's flooding or fire. And yes, that was one example I know we've spoken about before, mark, where the loss adjuster was sent in by the insurance company and they recommended a completely new floor, a complete replacement, which, as the other guests were rightly saying, is not unusual in terms of an approach to solving the problem. But the estimated cost was 70,000.
Gavin Mitchell:Now we deal with village halls the length and breadth of the country and we kind of looked at that and thought, no, that cannot be right. Have they had a specialist in there? So we intervened and a specialist went in and, yeah, the actual cost was, was, was, about, was, about 10% of the of the full replacement cost. And yeah, if I may for a second, this story comes with a crucial lesson about under-insurance because this particular village hall was under-insured by 30%, which basically meant that you know if you're under-insured it's a pretty common it should be insured for £100,000, potentially you could have an insurance claim halved. The insurance company may reserve that right.
Gavin Mitchell:So this village hall was underinsured. Which basically meant, as far as this floor replacement is concerned, there would have been about a £21,000 shortfall. But fortunately I'm not sure what the opposite of a sting in the tail is, but fortunately it wasn't a replacement, it was a refurbishment which was done for about £6,000. So there was a very small shortfall and they managed to make up that shortfall with their own funds, but I think the lesson there's two key lessons here.
Gavin Mitchell:The first thing is specialist problems require specialist solutions, especially with flooring. Now you know there's there's two key lessons here. The first thing is specialist problems require specialist solutions, especially with flooring. Now, you know there's over 10,000 village halls across the country and a very large number of these we know because we insure them have sprung wooden floors and it's crucial to look after these floors. It's absolutely crucial, not just for sustainability, but for also health and safety reasons. It's important to look after these halls, these floors. It's absolutely crucial, not just for sustainability, but for also health and safety reasons. It's important to look after these halls, these floors. And the second thing is, of course, ensure that your village hall, generally the insurance cover is accurate, because that's what you're paying for. You know value for money is about getting a claim aid fully to your satisfaction.
Marc Smith:Excellent. So I assume forgive my ignorance. In the insurance world, a lot of just do they have. Are they specialists at all? Or do they just turn up like me and I'm like, oh yeah, you need this, or do they? Actually know what they're talking about.
Gavin Mitchell:I'll have to be careful I'll end up with hate mail.
Gavin Mitchell:It's like the medical world where you have a consultant physician or a specialist rather than a general practitioner. You know a lot of loss adjusters will go, especially to village halls, and I think you know they'll go and think, ok, we'll go and have a look at the floor and so on and so forth. We happen to be very, very much in this niche. So quite often in our experience loss adjusters who have gone out, either being called by the underwriters we've used in the past or with other insurance companies, they'll go out and take a generalist approach to what I say is a specialist matter, as indeed Graham and Tim are talking about. It is a very specialist business and it's very easy to say well, you know it's uh, it needs replaced and it may well look as if it needs replaced and everyone will believe it's been. It needs replaced, including local specialists in the village or ex-ex-carpenters and so on and so forth.
Gavin Mitchell:You know they'll tend to think, yes, it needs replaced. But you know, if you bring in somebody who totally understands, especially sprung wooden floors, there's a very good chance they can be brought back to life when everyone else assumes that they're past it. Yeah, absolutely.
Tim Derbyshire:I couldn't agree more. We had one locally to us. Everyone thought let's have a new floor, a new floor. And two manufacturers went in there saying, yes, you can, can you know? New floor, etc. I went in there armed with samples for a new floor and I said why, why do you want to have this done? I want a new floor. I said you don't need to have a new floor and they'll look to me really odd. And I actually showed them on their hands and knees to actually measure between the tongue and the top of the wood. You probably got six hands left in there and I said that will last you a lifetime. So, and I also think it's just it's people's lack of knowledge and there's a degree of trust in there as well, and I think that it has to have that big effect, trust wise.
Gavin Mitchell:So sorry I was going to say. Tim, as you well know, you deal with a lot of village hosts. Every penny counts for a village host. They literally live on a very, very, very, very tight budget with considerable help from local volunteers and so on and so forth. And replacing a floor is an incredibly expensive business.
Graham Hickman:Oh for sure.
Gavin Mitchell:So never take it at face value If somebody says you need a new floor, and we don't take it at face value. If a loss adjuster tells us a new floor is required, we will bring in a specialist.
Tim Derbyshire:Yeah, absolutely, and you know the amount of quotes that we've done. You know, two years later you then get yep, let's go for it, because they've had sufficient time to save that money up. So yeah, 100%, you're right.
Marc Smith:So in the future, I suppose, if there is an insurance claim on a floor, so this could be for Tim Graham or Gavin. So what questions should committee members be asking to get a clearer picture of the work and its necessity?
Gavin Mitchell:Well, I think they should in fact be looking for somebody who totally understands the floor and I know this sounds like an infomercial, this whole podcast but I mean, we have considerable experience working with total floor care and we we know that they understand the market. Of course, they are not the only flooring company, but the point is you need to really bring in somebody who understands what the problem is. Do not assume you know what the problem is with the floor. If it's been damaged or needs replaced or been flooded or fire damage or worn or whatever, get somebody to look at it. It's a bit like a car tire. Remember they used to retread car tires.
Marc Smith:Not sure they do that anymore, did they?
Graham Hickman:Did they do that Really? Yeah, they did.
Gavin Mitchell:I think you can safely do it with wooden floors in the village hall. I'm not sure it's my car yeah from a manufacturer's point of view.
Graham Hickman:Yonkers have a number of approved yonkers contractors. We review the floors. We review the work that they recommend. Obviously, with all of this type of scenarios, we would recommend three people to inspect it, but we will come up with the Yonkers names approved contractors which Tim at Total Floor Clear is absolutely one, to make sure you're getting an expert to look at your floor and not someone who just believes they're an expert.
Marc Smith:I suppose that's a good introduction actually to Yonkers themselves. If you've never heard I've never heard them before this podcast and I'd imagine a lot of Village Hall committees wouldn't have. So yeah, they're a humongous company, aren't they really? And really well established for nearly 100 years, Is that right?
Graham Hickman:Absolutely. We are just over 100 years over in Denmark as well. We're a very strong company with a lot of great values, and we really do push on the fact that it's wood and it's sustainable, and we are here to help you guys. We want the right floor being purchased. We want the right maintenance behind that floor to ensure you get longevity of the floor. So it does outlast us all and it's something that we don't take lightly. We do go out and we inspect a lot of floors ourselves for you guys and and that's the whole point of us we want you having the best looking floor you can for as long a period as you can, and I think that's that's very important for village hall committees and trustees, and there's five things they need to do when they've got a wooden floor.
Gavin Mitchell:The first thing is is create a maintenance schedule, you know, document the cleaning, the inspections, the repairs. Be proactive in terms of risk management. The second thing is engage professionals. Understand the flooring in terms of installation, repairs and specialist maintenance. Records is crucial. That's the third thing. Maintain very, very careful records of everything, purely from a risk assessment and due diligence standpoint. Finally, consult your insurer, whether it's with Allied Westminster or whoever you're actually insuring through. Consult your insurer because let them know you're proactive about your wooden flooring. Make sure that they understand that you take this very, very seriously and conduct regular risk assessments, not just, obviously, on the flooring but all aspects of the village hall. But the flooring is a very important aspect because purely maintained halls can result in injuries and if a claim is made, then you want to make sure that you can prove to the insurance company that you've you've applied due diligence in terms of looking after the flooring is that, if you've experienced a slip or fall, those type of adverts, is that what they?
Gavin Mitchell:yeah, well, that's it I mean it's, it's slips, trips, fall hazards, all that sort of good stuff. I mean this is all just straightforward workplace, uh, health and safety, um that, village, village halls are subjected to the same as everyone else. But I think it's common sense is the key keywords involved here. And you know, I think, as Tim and Graham were actually saying and we visit a lot of village halls have a look at the floor. Have a look at the floor and see if it really just needs a bit of TLC, because that can significantly lengthen the lifespan of the floor, apart from improving health and safety.
Marc Smith:Absolutely yeah, and it need not cost a fortune.
Gavin Mitchell:We've seen that it doesn't involve spending necessarily a lot of money.
Tim Derbyshire:We had one example the other day and we actually sanded and sealed the floor. It was actually pine and we have a habit of basically going back every two years just to have a look and see. And they thought that we would say look, you know, do it again. I said actually no, because it doesn't need to be done. Just having that degree of confidence to say you know it's the right thing. Just spend the money somewhere else, which is unusual. Most people say take the money and run, but it was a case of saying no, that's fine, leave it for another year and we'll come back and treat the floor the following year. And it's just having that degree of confidence that you can, you know, utilize the right products and the right thing well care over replacement tim yeah, big time, always, always yeah yeah.
Marc Smith:So yeah, I suppose the maintenance is a as a key factor there. So, graham, what do you recommend? So say, someone just had their floor all done, all sanded, and it's back to brand new. What is the proper way to maintain your floor if you're, if you're saying, once it's down, if you can make it last 60 years, how do you make it last 60 years throughout that time?
Graham Hickman:so. So, as with all wood products, water can be a bit of a problem with a wood floor. So it's important to make sure that adequate matting is in place to protect the floor from as much water as possible and then grit as well, so that matting acts as a dual purpose to take the water away and to take the grit away. But on top of that, floors need to be swept regularly to remove that grit. We've, um, we've all seen and heard that grinding noise as someone drags a wheel of a table across some wood and you can practically hear it chipping away at that lacquer. Lacquers nowadays are very flexible but, um, they can still be damaged if too much weight is dragged across the floor. So, generally, sweeping is fantastic Water, I've just said, to protect the floor against water but it also needs to be used in a small amount with our cleaning products that need to be used on the floor on a regular occurrence, and it really does depend on how busy your floor is.
Graham Hickman:If your floor is not heavily used, then using our our cleaning products fairly infrequently is adequate, and we do.
Graham Hickman:A product floor cleaner that you mix with water can be used with a mop and a light amount of water or indeed with a, with a, with a cleaning machine. We would then probably recommend every six months to a year that you use the neutraliser just to get rid of everything if the floor's a bit too sticky, if it's got a build-up of dirt on the floor I'm going to say skin and oils from people, because this is what you get on quite a lot of the floors and that neutraliser cleans that back and removes it. So that's really good as a product and, as I said, we'd probably say every two years, two and a bit years, to have it inspected and a scrub and seal will be done. But one of the biggest protections is you mentioned before about damage that can be stopped from happening. We've got lots of chairs and tables out there without feet on and they get dragged over floors and they cause the premature ageing of floor or the damage of the lacquer. So it's really important to keep on top of that.
Marc Smith:So that would be a worthwhile purchase for something to protect the bottom. Well, to protect the floor from tables and chairs, I suppose just like a basic spend on. I take the little round, you know the little felt things. You as something to protect the bottom was. Protect the floor from tables and chairs, I suppose just like a basic spend on. Yeah, I take the little round.
Graham Hickman:You know the felt things you can stick to absolutely yeah absolutely um, and in village halls I see a lot of goal posts where people might only protect one side but not the rear metal work of the goal post it. It's just simple things that aren't being protected that will cause the damage. Yeah.
Marc Smith:Right right.
Tim Derbyshire:It's not a lot of money. It's 13p a single foot.
Marc Smith:Really Alright.
Tim Derbyshire:Nothing at all.
Marc Smith:Yeah, I thought everything was above a pound. These days, that's pretty good days, that's pretty good.
Tim Derbyshire:That's pretty good.
Marc Smith:Any hints or tips to make me better at badminton? To stop slipping on the floor.
Graham Hickman:Well, I'd make sure the floor Is properly clean always, because otherwise you will be slipping on the floor and don't wear Nailed boots.
Gavin Mitchell:Excellent. Well, I suppose we're coming to the end of our podcast.
Marc Smith:Don't wear hobnailed boots. Oh yeah, excellent, excellent, right. Well, I suppose we're coming to the end of our podcast now. So I've got one more question, and this is for. I suppose you can all answer, or just, or anyone who wishes to. So obviously, budgets are always at the front of the minds of committee members, so are there any hints or tips that you've learned over the years to ensure that there isn't any unnecessary spend on the floor? I suppose learned over the years to ensure that there isn't any unnecessary spend on the floor, I suppose like the little tip there about putting things on the bottom of chairs and tables. Is there anything else you can think of that whole whole? Users and committees can do to. Can they help?
Gavin Mitchell:just help their floor along. Well, I would say, from an insurance standpoint, prevention is always better than cure. So think it through, look at the floor, use common sense and listen to a lot of things that have been discussed here today, but just think about the things that will obviously damage your floor or cause issues in terms of the longevity of your floor's life.
Graham Hickman:Yeah, perfect, yeah, perfect, and use, use your expertise. That's around. As we've discussed, we can call uh tim or myself in to come and inspect your floor. Um, we won't. We might tell you off a little bit if you're not maintaining that floor correctly, but we'll more tell you how to do it. We want your floor to last as long as it can and look as great as it can, because a tired and tatty looking floor is often not respected by those who use it, which means it will just get worse quicker. So let us come and tell you what you're doing wrong and let's make sure we do it right yeah, excellent, excellent, can I?
Gavin Mitchell:ask can I ask um tim and gary my question here we, we, uh, we sort the insurance out for village halls from literally the length and breadth of the country, from Shetland right down to the very south. I mean, obviously, if somebody says, can you come and have a look at my village hall in Shetland, you may not be that inclined to jump on a plane so quickly. Is there anything you can do or advise village halls in very, very rural locations, maybe giving you a video or sending some information to you and maybe you recommending somebody else? If you can do it?
Tim Derbyshire:Yeah, very much so because basically we've got probably 10 contractors in the whole of the UK. If you want sort of the A's with me, we can just basically, yeah, have a look at it, and then you should be able to get a good idea of where they're coming from and what the floor is like. It might be a case of actually going down the cleaner maintenance route go down that room, which is the cheapest way of doing it. If the floor is looking a bit worse for wear, we can basically send someone in, for instance one guy I've been in Farrelkirk. He will do that for me.
Graham Hickman:So easy done. So yes, absolutely, we're nationwide and we have a list of Yonkers approved contractors. That would go through Tim, and it's very good. We can look at videos and pictures and try and assess. If that assessment is that it needs further studying, then we'll do further studying. But we live in the United Kingdom so we have to go everywhere we have to go to make sure that the wooden floors will work well, yes, okay, good, thank you, excellent.
Marc Smith:Well, that's a fantastic podcast. Thank you, uh, gavin, graham and tim, for your time. Today is really appreciated, and I'm sure the listeners will appreciate as well, because that's a lot, of a lot of information. I'm sure people will be listening to this twice. Do you really absorb it all? So hopefully, by the time this podcast has gone out, we'll have a shiny new website up and running. So please do subscribe and hit the bell icon so you can be notified when a podcast comes out, and please feel free to share and comment via the new website.
Marc Smith:So thank you everyone once again for listening and we'll chat again soon. Thank you, gavin, tim and Graham Pleasure. Thank you, thank you, bye. Many thanks to our headline sponsor and specialist village hall insurance provider, allied Westminster, the home of Village Guard, for making this podcast possible, and to online booking system provider, hallmaster, who also sponsor our podcast and can be found at hallmastercouk. You've been listening to the Village Halls podcast, a unique listening community for Britain's village community and church halls and anyone interested in the vital community services they provide. We'll be back again soon with another episode. For more information, please visit thevillagehallspodcastcom, where you'll also find links to our social media pages. Thanks again for listening in and until the next time. Goodbye for now.
