How To Chair A Difficult Meeting With Calm Authority

Who’s is Jackie Weaver

Pretty sure everyone knows the answer to that question. But if you've been living under a rock...

Video

I have been wanting to interview somebody in regards to chairing meetings for a long time. It was only when I was sitting doom scrolling on my phone that the video above reappeared for it's 5th Anniversary. I took a stab in the dark and contacted Jackie to ask for an interview. Thankfully she came back with a yes. 
It was only as I watched her name appear on the podcast recording studio I began to wonder if this was actually the Jackie Weaver from the video or a random Jackie Weaver that happened to be on a village hall committee. Thankfully it was her. 

It was a real joy to interview her for the Village Halls podcast. Whilst we talk about her life and what brought her to her work the podcast focuses on meeting management. We had plenty of laughs and the odd sidetracked story but essentially, it's a must listen if you're intae village halls. 

Transcript

Welcome And Jackie Introduced

Marc Smith 0:01

Hello, my name is Marc Smith, and welcome to the Village Halls Podcast, sponsored by Allied Westminster, the UK's largest specialist provider of Village Hall insurance and the home of VillageGuard. Welcome to the Village Halls Podcast. So I have a guest who I think will resonate with anyone who has ever sat around a committee table and wondered how on earth it got to this. So in December 2020, a parish council meeting in Hanforth, Cheshire descended into chaos on Zoom. One woman stayed calm, held the room, and became an unlikely national treasure in the process. You probably know the clip, you probably know the line, and if you've ever chaired a difficult meeting in a village hall, a parish council, a PTA, or anywhere, you probably recognise exactly what was happening. Jackie Weaver has spent nearly three decades supporting over 200 town and parish councils across Cheshire. She knows more about what makes a committee tick and what makes it implode than almost anyone in the country. She's also written a brilliant book, You Do Have the Authority Here, which I thoroughly recommend to anyone involved in community governance. Jackie, welcome to the Village Halls podcast.

Jackie Weaver 1:06

Hello there.

From Motherwell To Cheshire Work

Marc Smith 1:07

Thank you very much for joining me here. So as I was doing some research on yourself, I was shocked to see that you were actually born in Motherwell in Scotland. I don't know why you should be shocked about that.

Jackie Weaver 1:20

I mean, nearly all the Scots are down here in England.

Marc Smith 1:24

I suppose because as Motherwell's got quite, I suppose, a recognizable accent. Well, Lanarkshire has a recognisable accent, and I was that's what kind of threw me. I thought that's uh it's it's not the motherwell accent I was expecting.

Jackie Weaver 1:36

Oh goodness, no, no. I'm a th I think I'm a little um chameleon-like. Um, so I have a tendency to to pick up um the accents that are round about me. Um it it it worries me sometimes because sometimes, particularly when somebody has a broad accent, it sounds like you're mocking them. Um and um I'm always kind of um nervous about that.

Marc Smith 1:57

Um I'll be prepared just in case you turn back to Scott's.

Jackie Weaver 2:01

But actually, the the reason for the move um was that my my uh father was um the uh one of the managers at Shelton Nine and Steelworks. Oh, really? Right. And um moved um from sorry, I said Shelton, that's the one he moved to, Ravenscroft. Ravenscraft. Ravenscroft, Ravens Craig, um at um in uh not far from Motherwell. Um and um then uh Steelwork, of course, closed eventually. Um but he moved down to England to Shelton in the Stoke on Trent area when I was about ten. And at that age, you don't really kind of say, no, it's alright, I'll stay here.

Accidental Career In Parish Councils

Marc Smith 2:40

I suppose yeah, you're gonna you're you're stuck with it. You're stuck with it. Obviously, it's moved it's it's brought you on to great things there. So uh reading about your past was much as I could do online. Uh you had a few jobs, what made like the local councils like what it what made it feel like home? Why did you stay there for so long?

Jackie Weaver 2:59

That's a really interesting question. Um, and uh it's kind of I I often wish I was one of those people who had a a vision. You know how you see you know people who are very um passionate and dedicated and you know seem to have a goal and go for it. I've never been one of those. So it was one of those things that um my background was in fact, um, first of all, computers. Secondly, went into retail, retail management, worked for mother care for a long time, where I was involved in um store management and then store development and then the buying team in Watford. Um, then got married and had children, and it was during that time I was looking for something to do that, you know, I had three children. We lived in a um, we did still do, live in a very rural part of um Cheshire. Um, and it was, you know, what do you do to keep your mind kind of active rather than just talking about baby things? A very familiar story. Um, and um there was a a job came up, um, it was on the local parish council, um, and it was for their clerk. The clerk's the only person on a parish council that gets paid. Um, and I thought, well, I can type. There you go, that's the job for me. Um, and I didn't get it. Now, I don't want you to think I have such an ego that I couldn't cope with being, you know, with not getting a job that I'd gone for, but what incensed me was the chairman's wife got the job.

Marc Smith 4:28

All right.

Jackie Weaver 4:29

And it felt so much as if it was an nepotism, it just felt wrong. So um, if you can't beat them, join them. So I became a parish councillor, and it was one of those things that it snowballed from there. So I I was a parish council, I was elected to parish councillor on this tiny rural parish council, Dodcut and Wilkesley. It even sounds rural, doesn't it? It does, yeah. Um, and then we had um there were group meetings organized um for parish council representatives, and I went along to one of those and they wanted a secretary. But you know, I I was kind of sitting there and there would be his hand was going up, and eventually I said, But I I can type, but I don't know anything about parish council. The job's yours. It wasn't paid, but the job's yours. Um, and there was a kind of progression from thing that the next thing was we need a treasurer. Well, I'm not very good with numbers, the job's yours. I mean, we're not talking about a huge amount of money here. Yeah, and then um literally years have passed now. We're talking about four or five years, children have got older, and the um Treasure Association of Local Councils, the organization that I'm involved in, um, was looking for a um, was suddenly looking for a secretary um to to manage all of the business, and that would include giving advice to town and parish councils. And I said, well, again, I I have no experience of this, but what I can do um is I can I can type, I can send out letters and things like that to help you in the meantime. And at the 11th hour, the chairman um said, you know, I said I was looking through the job spec and said jokingly, because I think many women will recognise that feeling of having been out of the job market for a little while and not having as much confidence as you might have had before. And I said in a kind of passing, oh goodness, I could do this. Yeah, why haven't you applied? And I did, and I got the job. Now, I sometimes think when people say, Oh, you've been in that job for 30 years, you know, it it kind of generates that sense of, you know, the old bank manager, you know, that's um that's there, you know, now waiting for retirement with uh, you know, a glass of whiskey down in the um the vault, just waiting for the day to finish. I'm not saying I don't like the occasional glass of whiskey, um, but so much has changed for Town and Parish Councils in Cheshire over the last 30 years that my job has changed dramatically.

Marc Smith 6:59

Yeah, yeah.

Jackie Weaver 7:00

When I first took it on, um the association kind of would had a budget of about 40,000 a year, um, a membership of about 36%. Right. We now have a budget of about 160,000. There's a little team of three of us, um, and um our parish councils between them, you know, spent over um 15 million a year.

Marc Smith 7:28

Right. It's quite significant.

Jackie Weaver 7:30

It's absolutely significant. Whereas back in the day, um, you know, kind of the major concerns of the parish council I were on, were were on, was on, was potholes and septic tank drainage. So if you want to know about septic tank drainage, I am your girl.

Marc Smith 7:46

Well, that's good to know. If ever do a podcast on that topic, I know who I'm calling.

Jackie Weaver 7:51

I wouldn't expect many listeners, but you know, I I I I can help.

What Changed In 30 Years

Marc Smith 7:55

Well, that's what everyone needs them. Especially because we do some rural areas, definitely. Yeah, definitely. I suppose that that kind of answers my my neck next question. It was going to be about what where does it come from your your calmness in obviously in that famous meeting? Because I have been wanting to do a podcast for a while on this topic, uh, and it was only last month that I saw it come up, it showed up my feed. I thought, you know what, I'm gonna I'm gonna contact Jackie Weaver and see if we can get her on because um how you manage that is exceptional. But how do you remain so calm? Is it because you've been in the job for so long? Is it because you have is it three boys you have? Yeah, it that could be that could be uh you know, that could be uh a reason that you can remain calm. What is it about you that you can keep your composure through these moments?

Jackie Weaver 8:47

Um I I think in part it it's something I've had to develop over the years. Um, you remember how I said that parish councils um can range between a tiny organization that that maybe has um £5,000, £10,000 a year to manage up to one with one and a half million. When you go into a meeting, you've no idea what you're gonna find. You know, it it's you you learn how to how to prepare. I mean, you don't go to no, you don't go into a meeting unprepared, that's just ridiculous. Yeah, but you learn to go into a meeting with a kind of more open mind of where this is gonna go, and you allow yourself to be led in part, so you're not starting off with a fight.

Marc Smith 9:32

Yeah, yeah.

Jackie Weaver 9:33

I I mean if if you if you watch the video in detail, one of the things that uh sticks out for me was the scene is set by the chairman when I say something like, um, okay, it's 7.30, it's time to start. And he says, it's 7.28.

Marc Smith 9:54

Yeah.

Jackie Weaver 9:55

Now I know it's 7.30 because I'm sitting looking at my computer screen.

Marc Smith 9:59

Yeah.

Staying Calm In Chaotic Meetings

Jackie Weaver 10:00

And it's 7.30. Now, I can either have that argument that I'm right, or I can say, We'll wait two minutes then, Chairman.

Marc Smith 10:09

I suppose, yeah. Just take it's a little you don't always need to be proved right, I suppose. No. You can sometimes that could be wor you know, as you're saying, that's probably worse. It's just as you know, a bit pedantic. Just, well, yeah, it's fine, just you know, do what you do.

Jackie Weaver 10:23

But but also do it with good grace.

Marc Smith 10:25

Yeah, yeah.

Jackie Weaver 10:26

You know, you you don't make it not not that way of saying, Well, I know I'm right. But okay, we'll do it your way. Um the talking clock. He's is it's um by the way, it was half past seven when I told you it was. Um, yeah, but you know, it was okay, let you win that one. Next. You know, and you have to we wait and see what's going to unfold rather than trying to drive it from the beginning. Um, I I guess that's that's kind of where it comes from. So I'm I'm not immediately fighting to get somewhere.

Marc Smith 11:00

Yeah.

Jackie Weaver 11:00

I I'm I'm happy for you to lead me a bit. The other thing that's really funny, I must just pick you up on this. Why does everybody call me Jackie Weaver? It's not one word, you know, it's two words. Yeah, my name's Jackie.

Marc Smith 11:17

In the like like a like a bad child, he feel names you in the in the video. I think that's weird. I think because now you're uh name, you're a household name now, and I think it's impossible to to just say Jackie. See, I know I want to see Weaver, I can't say it alone.

Jackie Weaver 11:34

So it's so weird, uh, because you know, obviously for me listening, um, you know, it it's always as if that is a a single word. Yes, interestingly, um, and again, you know, he he makes out that he's you know, I am some strange person that he's never met before. He's met me several times before. Ah, so that wasn't the the first uh the first interaction with him. Oh, good grief, no. I've I've been sat in his um his living room about three months before then.

Marc Smith 12:02

I take it never again after that.

Jackie Weaver 12:04

No, not so much. But yeah, I mean, no, that was the reason I was there that night because um, you know, if it was just to Clark a meeting, um one of my my helpful colleagues would have picked that up. Yeah, but I knew that it would be a challenging meeting because of the history, um, you know, and um the the objective of that meeting for me was first of all to have the meeting start because the chair kept trying to shut it down. So it was important that we didn't get a vote in early to close the meeting. So that that was a priority because we had to give power back to the councillors at that table um to um to to reinstate their clerk so that they could move forward, um otherwise the the the the um the power struggle that was there in the background um would still have been a logjam.

Marc Smith 13:02

That's interesting. So you knew that immediately that's what they're that's what their aim was. Oh yeah, and you had to just basically divert it away.

The Real Aim In Hanforth

Jackie Weaver 13:07

Yeah.

Marc Smith 13:09

Interesting that. Yeah, excellent. Right, so my my next question next question is so in your in your book, you've described yourself as a magician's assistant. So like a a Debbie McGee, could we say?

Jackie Weaver 13:21

Oh blind. If only, if only, gosh, what a lovely lady she is.

Marc Smith 13:27

I think it's interesting that you you you want to not have a spotlight on yourself. Is that the perfect trait for a chairperson?

Jackie Weaver 13:37

Yes, yes, I think I think I think you've actually um hit the nail on the head. Um yeah, it if it it's almost like um being a conductor. Um, not that I've ever been a conductor, yeah. Um, but you know, you could be the greatest conductor in the world, but if the people in that orchestra don't play to their best, you got nothing.

Marc Smith 14:07

Yeah.

Jackie Weaver 14:07

So it's how you get how you empower them in order to deliver your agenda. Um and if you're out there as the um the big I am, then all that will happen is that those people will take a back seat and leave you to it.

Marc Smith 14:24

Yeah, yeah.

Jackie Weaver 14:25

If you're lucky, otherwise you'll have another um I am or two in the council and we'll have a an eternal battle.

Marc Smith 14:34

That's true. That's true. So is it 27 years you've been in uh in your in your job?

Jackie Weaver 14:41

Oh gosh, now you're asking. Um I think I think it's 28. Because I was thinking um if I did another couple, that seemed like a nice round number. It is and perhaps time to to to go.

Marc Smith 14:53

It's an exclusive, is it?

Jackie Weaver 14:56

It's uh but the my my trouble is go to what?

Marc Smith 15:00

Are you one of those people that can't sit and do nothing? You have to keep busy. Yeah, I'm I'm very you need to have something. Yeah.

Jackie Weaver 15:08

I mean, it's like I I watch t I like watching TV, um, guilty pleasure, particularly horror films.

Marc Smith 15:14

I did read that, yeah. That's interesting.

Jackie Weaver 15:17

And when I did um Mastermind, uh Celebrity Mastermind, um my um specialist subject was the Chronicles of Riddick.

Marc Smith 15:25

Oh, was it really? I'll need to watch that on YouTube. I assume it's on YouTube.

Jackie Weaver 15:29

Yeah. Um so um, yeah, uh sci-fi and horror is uh Steam King. Great. Um, so uh yeah, but I never just watch the television. Um, I read, I do stuff on my phone, I play games on my phone, I knit. I I like like candy crafts as well. So you know, knit so all the granny stuff. Um I love that. It's that repetitive, calming sensation of knitting, you know. It's um yeah, love it. Excellent.

Warning Signs And Preparation

Marc Smith 15:58

So I'll move on to the Hanforth incident, we'll call it an instant, uh, just for a moment, but I I do want to chat about the you know your your your skills in actually managing a meeting. But I do have a few standard questions, I'm sure you've answered these before. Uh so when you went into the meeting, which you've kind of explained here, but if it's not the Hanforth thing exactly, what are some early warning signs that would tell you this is going to be a challenge, this meeting?

Jackie Weaver 16:28

I I think I think the thing that probably teaches you most is that when you've just had a quick look at the agenda and you've you've thought to yourself, great, we'll be out in five minutes, it's probably going to be the most challenging meeting of your life. And perhaps somebody can help me with that. I don't know why that is. My my thought is that maybe it's because when you do that, you are less well prepared.

Marc Smith 16:55

Maybe your expectations are maybe off-kelter.

Jackie Weaver 16:59

Maybe you've just thought to yourself, yeah, this is a doddle, and you and you're approaching it with a sort of sense of less less confidence, perhaps. Um, I I find that if you do your homework about each of the subjects, and I mean, you know, for example, at every every organization has rules. You'll you you know, you heard me, or you heard on the video, you know, how how enthusiastic the chairman was about um standing orders. Um, so you know, you need to read your standing orders, you need to read them and understand them.

Marc Smith 17:34

Oh, it's all that.

Jackie Weaver 17:37

And he's absolutely right. However, you do need to know what you're talking about. Interpret them correctly. Um, so yeah, you need to know the rules of whatever meeting that you are chairing. Because if if you go in and do it and you you're not confident about that, then you're backfooted straight away. You know, the first time somebody challenges something, you're like a fish out of water. Now, what we normally do at that point is turn and ask the the secretary, yeah. But as soon as you have to do that, you've already said, I'm not really sure of what I'm doing here.

Marc Smith 18:16

Yeah. So is it just knowing the rules of the game?

Jackie Weaver 18:19

Knowing the rules of the game, um, prioritizing what's on the agenda. I mean, I think that's something for me that's really important. Is that do you really care about every single item on that agenda? Do you really? No, of course you don't. There'll be one or two things in there. And again, it's about that choose your battles. You know, what is it on this agenda that's important to you? Where do you want to be? And and actually sitting down for you know half an hour with a cup of coffee, looking through the agenda and making notes. You know, what points do I want to cover with this? You don't have to necessarily be the one that makes all the points, yeah. But make sure somebody's made them, tick them off. You pick up the ones that other people haven't.

Marc Smith 19:01

That's true.

Jackie Weaver 19:02

And and don't have this feeling that everybody has got to be heard. We've all got that person who says, Well, it's all been said already, but now why don't you jump in at that point and say, Thank you for that, John. That was really helpful. Um, I'll I'll take that that you're you're supportive of what's been said already. Any new put any new points here?

Marc Smith 19:29

Is it a British thing to just be polite, let people have their say? Because I don't know, I I've my my partner's Dutch and they are I they're not really rude, but they're they're quite quick to say what they think. Immediately, you know, immediately they're quite good at that, actually. One of the things I admire about them. But is it a British thing that said, you know, if just to be polite will let you have, you know, let's just go over the same thing that we've already discussed.

Jackie Weaver 19:54

Well, I think it's a confidence thing. I think it's it's that you you you're really saying, I I don't feel able to interrupt that person. I I mean for me, 99% of the people that you come across will talk the way you do, in that there is a natural pause um every every sentence or so.

Marc Smith 20:16

Yeah.

Jackie Weaver 20:16

Yeah. Now listen for it and get in there when it's there. Occasionally you have people that honestly, I think they must breathe through their ears because they certainly don't pause for breath. That there's no that that it's like a wall of sound, you know what I mean? I know exactly what you've been doing. You know, a colleague of mine used to say it makes your ears bleed. And um, yeah, I get exactly what he meant by that. Um, and it's like, how do I break into this?

Marc Smith 20:46

Yeah, yeah.

Jackie Weaver 20:47

Yeah. But that's that very few people are like that. So most people have that natural pause. And if you wait, if you listen for it, break in there.

Marc Smith 20:57

Yeah.

Jackie Weaver 20:57

Um yeah, I well, the other thing, of course, is that I I again it's kind of leading up, it it picking up on the same kind of theme, which is I always think it's helpful for the chair to set the ground rules for the meeting.

Marc Smith 21:12

Right, so it means just kind of going through going over the the rules at the beginning.

Jackie Weaver 21:17

Possibly, but but maybe even more of the softer stuff. So, you know, um acknowledging that, you know, blame it, everybody remembers last month's meeting. Yeah, we were all still here at 11 o'clock, and we don't want that again, do we? No.

Marc Smith 21:30

Yeah.

Jackie Weaver 21:30

So can I suggest that you know I I I move the conversation on if we have any repetitive points, would that be okay? That's a good idea. Now you are enforcing their rules, not your rules.

Marc Smith 21:48

Very interesting, that yeah.

Jackie Weaver 21:49

And that is much easier to do than it is to say, Well, I'm the boss and that's how we're gonna do it.

Marc Smith 21:55

Yeah, yeah. And setting and setting the expectations right at the beginning, just as a little reminder Be time that you know we do have you know, as we're saying beforehand, it it's all voluntary, so you have to, you know, everyone's got things to do, put kids to bed, you know, clean up, dishwasher, that kind of basic stuff. If that's on your mind, you just want to get home a lot of the time. But you want to deal with the problems because it we everyone cares about the problems in their village halls, but you also you need to get home as well.

Jackie Weaver 22:20

And and also, I mean, it it's it's one of those things that's so basic, but start and finish on time.

Marc Smith 22:26

Yeah.

Jackie Weaver 22:26

I mean, it it it winds me up no end when um you know meeting starts at half past seven. Um, it's now half past seven, and the chair says, Um, it's half past seven, but Jenny is not here yet. I think she's running a bit late. We'll just give her another five minutes, shall we? No. The rest of us are here, move on, yeah. Yeah, and the same at the other end. People will be grateful to you for finishing the meeting on time.

Marc Smith 22:57

Yeah.

Jackie Weaver 22:58

And if that is our goal, then if you have to stop someone talking, it's because we want to finish on time, as we agreed.

Marc Smith 23:08

Yeah.

Jackie Weaver 23:08

Because you want me to do this for you.

Marc Smith 23:12

That's probably the best bit of advice we're gonna get there. Because that's I I've just been wrangled into uh treasure of my village hall. And one of the fears is that you it's dra it drags on for too long. Uh and it's you you want to achieve what you want to achieve, but you don't want you really don't want to drag on. And I think I think I'll have to bring this up, the podcast up, uh, at our first meeting, which will be in a couple of weeks' time, to say that this is you know, if we know we're coming home at the right time, then it doesn't it doesn't matter as much. You're not thinking, oh, this could drag on forever. There's no fear that your your night's completely gone. So it's quite nice to know that.

Jackie Weaver 23:47

But it's also focus. Yeah. You know, it if if you have a meeting where where everyone has settled in to, you know, allowing the usual speakers to make the usual point, the energy has been sucked out of that meeting. Um, you know, we're we're just sitting there waiting for the end of it. Yeah, which is very helpful actually, if you're trying to squeeze through something late at night that nobody's going to like. Because by the time you get to half past ten, people will agree to anything just to go home.

Marc Smith 24:18

I stand corrected, that might be the best bit of advice. So yeah. So uh my next question is going to be if you have some unruly characters on a Zoom meeting, I think nice and simple, you can press eject or remove, put them in a waiting room. How do you do that? Now we're no longer in COVID. How do you do that in real life? If there's someone being difficult in that meeting, what's the best process?

Jackie Weaver 24:46

Okay. Um, I the the it's actually a really long question, um, because it depends on why they're being difficult. I mean, if they're generally difficult, yeah, as opposed to in that moment they are difficult, I think that there's two different ways of of dealing with it. I mean, first of all, people seem to think that they only exist within the meeting. That they're people outside of the meeting. If if you've got an issue with them, if their behaviour is problematic at a meeting, and you're the chair, why not speak to them outside of a meeting? Why not have a coffee with them and talk about it? You know, you seem really upset about such and such. You've got, you know, you've got some really great ideas about such and such. You know, I wonder how we can, you know, maybe take time to just kind of talk through them, that kind of thing.

Marc Smith 25:35

Yeah.

Jackie Weaver 25:35

Yeah? So so what it, you know, perhaps looking at what is it that's making this person really awkward. But if they are just really difficult people, I think it comes back to having set the ground rules of the meeting. And then when they exceed the ground rules, you cut them off and you refer back to the ground rules. Right. You do it twice on the third time, you say to them, Look, if I I know you feel really strongly about this, but if you can't control how you feel about it and how you're talking to other people, then you're gonna have to leave the meeting. Or failing that, I'm gonna have to close the meeting down. And one of the things I always think is that men have a distinct advantage as chairs because of their voices because you you have much stronger voices than most women do. So when you raise your voice as a man, most men, not all, but most men will then it increase the gravitas of what they're saying when they increase the voice. Women are the opposite because we end up screaming like harpies, and we sound like we are emotionally unstable.

Marc Smith 26:47

Yeah, yeah.

Jackie Weaver 26:48

You know, we we're not keeping control of that meeting if we're screaming at the um people that are in the room. We've got to do something to get their attention, and so I I really am a huge supporter of the old gavel.

Marc Smith 27:01

Oh, really? That'd be quite interesting to see back, yeah.

Jackie Weaver 27:04

Well, I mean, a lot of councils do use them, and and and actually it's one of those things that it's not just an old-fashioned thing, although it is also an old-fashioned thing, but it's a way of saying we are giving authority to the person in the chair to manage this meeting. And so, you know, maybe to have a ceremonial one that you use, maybe once in a blue moon, but it sits in front of the chair, yeah, um, I think is of value to bring back because then if a woman needs to bring a a rowdy meeting, and not necessarily a bad meeting, but just that you're you know, you're all talking across each other to order, she has the means of doing it rather than adding her often more high-pitched voice to the to the menling.

Women Chairs Confidence And Emotion

Marc Smith 27:56

That's interesting, that yeah. See, part part of your book was talking about the differences between men and women. Obviously, the the the sound of their voice is uh I think a big um a huge difference when it comes to chairing meetings. What other differences are there between men and women uh becoming chairperson or you know, I suppose even any other member just getting their voices heard, because obviously if if it is predominantly a male uh committee, then how do you make yourself heard?

Jackie Weaver 28:26

Um I I mean this is a huge generalization because I mean, you know, it's clearly you're not saying, and neither do my that all women are the same. Oh no. Uh and and I think for me it it's about first of all, you need to be confident in your own ability. You know, and often we're not, you know, we're so many women, and myself included, you know, kind of have that um imposter syndrome. Right, you know, um I'm here and I'm doing this, but it's only a question of time until you find out I'm not really very good at it. You know, and it shows, you know, so that confidence of they have elected me, because that's how you will be in the chair. Yeah. Process of, you know, everybody said, Yeah, we'd like you to do it. Um, so don't hesitate to remind them that you are their decision.

Marc Smith 29:23

Yeah.

Jackie Weaver 29:24

Now I'm playing my part, I need you to play yours. So that that kind of quiet authority that reinforces the the position is helpful. Um, because I you know, I've had occasionally I've had a um a chair, a chairperson, a chairwoman um who has been really um, I would say bullied um by the council. And ultimately my question to her is why are you still there? Yeah. You're not their parent. If they weren't if they won't fulfil their part of the bargain, why are you desperately trying to fulfil yours? Because you're not you're not showing anything, you're not, you're not teaching them anything. You're just facilitating the whipping block that is you.

Marc Smith 30:12

Yeah, yeah.

Jackie Weaver 30:12

And actually that was for her, that was really powerful because actually she did go back to them and say, you know, this is you know, you elected me to do this job. If you will not support me in doing it, then you need another chairman.

Marc Smith 30:24

That's interesting, yeah.

Jackie Weaver 30:25

So remember why you are there. You are there because you were put there, you have a right to be there. Um, and and also you don't always have to be the loudest voice in the room. You know, that that way of facilitat if if we are having productive meetings, if people are going away, starting on time, being respected when they speak during the meeting, leaving on time, you are chasing to make sure that jobs are being followed up and you're reporting back on those jobs being followed up, then that's quietly kind of asserting your authority in that meeting. And I guess finally, is there's no getting away from it. Generally speaking, women are more emotional than men. And I I have um historically been brought brought to tears in a meeting. Um really oh yeah, um, I I was um bullied by someone in a meeting when I I wasn't chairing a meeting, yeah. I was bullied by someone in a meeting. Um I had a um a um a post um within the organization and I was challenged by one particular member um and gave an answer. Um the answer didn't satisfy, you know, that this went on and on and on for the chairman should have stopped it long before. Yeah, I started to get upset more with frustration than anything else. It's like, you know, what else can I say? You know, um, and um, you know, I said I I need five minutes and I left the room and came back, and we just started again. So yeah, I I've been in tears in the meeting, so I I know what that feels like, but you can't afford to do that as chair. So if you feel you're getting anywhere close to that, you need to call a break to the meeting so that you can gather yourself back. Because if you if you lose the um um control of the meeting, I think you'll find it very difficult to get that back.

Marc Smith 32:34

Yeah, that's interesting. It's quite a sad aspect of I suppose the world of village halls and parish council committees. It's it is is always going to happen. Um I was speaking to somebody else, and I said there's there's always a few in every village across the country that are sometimes not there to make your life hard, but maybe just that that bit more challenging. Yes. It's oh I'll see my I always say well, life is quite hard, but I always say life's hard because some people make it hard. Yes. And it doesn't need to be like well, it is like that, but it doesn't really need to be like that. So I I understand what you're saying. If if if it's too much, it's just leave. You know, it's not there's no payments, it's there's no you're not sorry, you're not getting paid for it. And if it's uh affecting your mental health, which I think is uh it sounds like it would be, yeah, just leave. But you can always come back another time when there's a different committee on, or or maybe the problem's been resolved.

Jackie Weaver 33:28

Yeah, and it's also about how you leave. You know, if you flounce out in a flood of tears, then no, that that that's not help nobody's learning anything from that. But if you're able to calmly say to people, you know, um you are not making you you are not making it possible for me to do the job you elected me to do.

Marc Smith 33:49

Yeah.

Choosing The Right Chair

Jackie Weaver 33:50

You know, are you going to work with me? This is what I need. And and kind of again setting though that that kind of baseline, I don't think is a weakness, I think it's a strength. I think the other thing is, it perhaps to kind of turn it on its head, is that often we elect the wrong chair.

Marc Smith 34:10

Yeah.

Jackie Weaver 34:10

So that one of the things that um I that I cover in a the chairmanship training that I do um is actually about make sure that you you elect the right chair. Don't elect somebody on the basis of it's their turn.

Marc Smith 34:25

Yeah, yeah, because that's yeah, because small communities are kind of you know, like, you know, everyone can have their shot, you know. Because you are, as you were saying before our actual podcast, you're saying that everyone well in a village hall capacity, it's it's your neighbour in a village hall, especially the rural village hall. So yeah, like yeah, it's your turn. Yeah, it should never be based on that at all. It should be merit. Or if you know that person's good at their at what they do, everyone's got their talent. Yeah. Even if it's just being a treasurer, it's everyone's got their talent, it you know, rather than your turn.

Jackie Weaver 34:55

Yes, absolutely. And and and in fact, it's it's almost a a kind of it's almost like bullying to make somebody chair when you know they don't have the ability to do it.

Marc Smith 35:08

Yeah.

Jackie Weaver 35:08

You know, it's it's not their skill set. You know, that they are the person who prefers to be in the background getting things done.

Marc Smith 35:16

Yeah, yeah.

Jackie Weaver 35:17

Yeah.

Marc Smith 35:18

That's interesting that. So one of the points I was going to bring up with you is was if you have uh a committee that's not changed in years that uh that can be a good thing. It can be a good thing because maybe they have got exceptional talents, but also does the drive make it feel stagnated and things don't get done? How how would you what's the best way to manage uh uh because if it's a small community, oh people are gonna get voted back in maybe because obviously they've been can be forced back in, or how do you how do you manage the the the transition of stagnated basic committees and wanting to move forward? Because sometimes change is people hate change, but I I think personally I think change is one of the greatest things you can you can do to things. How do you can it go a lot in that process?

Jackie Weaver 36:14

Um, I think you've got a number of options. Um, I mean, first of all, um I you can tackle it head on, you can have a conversation about you know, are are we happy with what we're doing? Do we want to do something different? You know, and have you know make everybody part of the uh solution, not just the problem, as they say. Um, but if you've tried that and you know it's just not gonna work because it's like getting turkeys to vote for Christmas, um then you gotta tackle it sort of in a more Machiavellian way, which is get your ducks in the row outside of the committee, so that when the elections come forward, you have candidates of people who are visible who are showing that they want to be um engaged. So, you know, get some get some new blood organized before you need it.

Marc Smith 37:01

Right, right.

Jackie Weaver 37:02

Um is is helpful, and also uh you can kind of squeeze them in the back door by setting up things like working groups.

Marc Smith 37:11

All right, right.

Jackie Weaver 37:13

So, you know, you they don't go through that formal pro if your constitution allows it, so they're not going through that formal process of election, they can be selected to come forward to work with you on a particular project. That can be a good way of getting their feet in the door.

Marc Smith 37:29

Yeah, and there's a lack of you don't have to have them signed up for an entire year to do these things as well. That's quite a nice way just to test the water, I suppose.

Jackie Weaver 37:37

Yeah, and and also uh uh I call them working groups, you might call them task and finish groups. So they might come the the beauty of them is is that you're bringing in someone who has a passion for that subject. So not someone who is committed to the whole village, but somebody who particularly wants to see a roundabout in the park.

Marc Smith 37:57

Right, right.

Jackie Weaver 37:57

You know, or or whatever it is that or that footpath cleared or something like that. Yes, yes, or um and your floor in the village hall, you know, something that they are passionate about, a tennis court, a new net for it, just just you know, something that they are trying to achieve and bring them in, um, you know, with with other people who are perhaps similarly minded to work on that project so that the energy is is put in elsewhere and then the work is brought back to the committee in a way that it can't really refuse.

Quick Wins And Action Tracking

Marc Smith 38:29

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting that. Well, w one of the the parts that of your of your book that I found really interesting was obviously when you're talking about this in the world of I suppose any even parish councils, village halls, you've got so many big things to deal with. Like say your your your roof is leaking. Do you need a new roof? Do you need to what do you need to do about it? But part of it was the quick wins is actually, I think in life in general, I think you can apply this everywhere, is having the the the quick wins can uplift committees or villages more than people might you know think well it's too easy, we can do that another time because it's just it's a it's a quick, easy fix, but then you put it off and then the quick fixes become a a list of themselves. Having those quick wins is something that when you spoke about in your book, it's like that's it just makes makes so much more sense when you say it. That's it.

Jackie Weaver 39:20

And actually, it's one of those things that can be I mean it it's it's kind of like part of your everyday life, you know. So for example, you you're yourself when you're doing your to-do I I do, I assume everybody else does, but maybe they don't. A to-do list for things that you got for work. Yeah, you know, put things on there that normally you'd think to yourself, well, I'll not write that down because that will automatically happen. What's this automatically happening stuff? Automatically happening stuff is stuff that you are doing that you are not giving yourself credit for.

Marc Smith 39:50

Yeah, yeah.

Jackie Weaver 39:51

So all you're doing is beating yourself up for all stuff you didn't do. So let's put that stuff down and let's tick it off. And so at the end of the day, you've got a number of things that you tick off and say, actually, I did achieve something today. I got some carry forwards for tomorrow, and they may be carrying forward for the next six months. Yeah. But I've also got a lot of ticks there. I did achieve things today, and the same is true with your, you know, often the way we keep minutes, for example, um, buried within those minutes are the tasks that we have set ourselves.

Marc Smith 40:26

Yeah.

Jackie Weaver 40:27

Problem with that is who's keeping who's keeping a tab on that.

Marc Smith 40:30

Yeah, yeah.

Jackie Weaver 40:31

So we need some, we need to kind of record these actions somewhere else, and we need to report back on those actions so people can see. Yeah, okay, we haven't got the new roof yet, but we're putting 20,000 away each year in the budget. Yeah, we've already um uh found out how much it's going to cost. We could borrow the money, we'll consider that at next month's meeting, all those kind of things. We've got those steps that show what we're doing about it, so it doesn't get lost. Because so much of people's frustration um in parish councils and committee meetings is where they feel they've made a decision about something. But then what happened? Yeah, yeah. And and actually, I mean, never mind committees, etc., we see that all the time with government. You know, where something's been decided that's gonna happen and it just goes nowhere.

Marc Smith 41:25

I'm not sure. I just wonder what the reason for that is. I think it might yeah, you make a good, I think you make an excellent politician, but you're probably too truthful. Or you would maybe get too much done and you're making everyone else look bad. I'm not sure.

Jackie Weaver 41:40

Yes, too to too many competing priorities there. One of the interesting things about um politics, and I I'm not a political creature, as you've probably discovered, um, is that it's all very well having um as an individual having your vision, your priorities, your your passion, etc. But if you are a lone voice, you'll get nothing done.

Marc Smith 42:03

Yeah.

Jackie Weaver 42:04

So you end up either being that lone voice that has lots of good ideas but gets nothing done, or you end up having to change your ideas to fit in with a larger group in order to get things done. That's interesting, yeah. And I would not be a politician.

Marc Smith 42:26

Yeah. You're too well liked anyway, around the sure it would work.

Jackie Weaver 42:31

I'm not sure politicians can be liked.

Marc Smith 42:33

I think so. I've I've met a few, then actually they've all been lovely. Uh and they they I suppose they've got the same problem as every every other committee that's trying to get things done. You have your your budget's always top of the list. Yeah. And in the pot, I'm I'm sure you hear about the potholes, but uh it's uh they can only do what they can do with the budget they've been given. They can't do anything else uh with that. Uh so yeah, it's although you have to take your frustration out of someone.

Scotland Versus England Local Powers

Jackie Weaver 42:59

But um, yeah, um it's only um slightly um um off topic, um actually like totally off topic. Um I did I did do um a presentation to one of the um um select committees um for the um Scottish Parliament because they were looking at um changing the way that community councils work in Scotland more to more towards a model like the town and parish councils in in England. I haven't heard anything about it for a couple of years now, um, but there was certainly a select committee that was was looking at it because although you have those community councils, they have no um tax raising powers, they are really just consultative bodies.

Marc Smith 43:45

Yeah, yeah.

Jackie Weaver 43:46

Um whereas we have the same in England except that they have tax raising powers um and so have responsibilities like you know the one and a half million um for you know a variety. of um aspects of of community and local life that they deliver.

Marc Smith 44:05

That would be nice if it did make its way up here. If there's I think that there must be quite a lot of big differences between it is there a difference actually between Scottish well the the way Scotland does their village hall committee meetings and England or do they see follow the same basic rules?

Jackie Weaver 44:22

No at committee um at village hall level no it'd be the same.

Marc Smith 44:25

Right, right.

Jackie Weaver 44:27

Because um many of our parish councils do own village halls. Yeah I have noticed that's a quite broad yeah the nice thing about that is it is vested in the community held by the parish council but vested in the community. But even then they set up arm's length committees management committees to run them.

Marc Smith 44:45

Right, right.

Building A Village Halls Support Hub

Jackie Weaver 44:46

You know so that the um the everyday business of the village hall isn't discussed particularly in parish council meetings. You know um the only thing that would come to the parish council meeting is things like the the the budget for next year that kind of thing. Right right so so no they will be pretty much uh pretty much the same. Also we have another organisation that is like ours um but is um a bit separate um and that is um our rural community councils and they um tend to look after village hall committees so they look after community and voluntary groups yeah whereas I look after um democratically elected town and parish councils. Oh right right so there's a support mechanism specifically for them as well because their needs are are different from town and parish councils so they they have more about risk assessment um daily management of property that kind of thing right right I should really know that given the podcast I do but I didn't know that that was interesting that was interesting.

Marc Smith 45:52

Well no you shouldn't know the comparison really because well I can it well I've only been doing this for about a year and a half but it is I do try and read if I see something online about village halls I try I do try and learn as much as I can do so I can I think it makes for if I can ask the right questions that maybe other people might ask in the village hall world. So I do try and learn as much as I can do about all these all these all these uh all these elements really do you have a village halls forum no that is in the in the planning though because I do part of my job job is I build websites and I built the village halls podcast website and what I want to do with that is put a forum onto the website itself because it's meant to be a it's meant to be a hub for where people ask questions and can find answers from other other members. Obviously I do that on their behalf with the podcast but I think there's a lot more power to do it via a forum and I know I've already found the what I need to do to put the forum on. So part of the plan in the next probably 18 months is actually to put a forum on onto the website itself so we can people can ask questions and people can get answers.

Jackie Weaver 46:54

Well if you if you want to contact um email me um I will do yeah because um what I would suggest is have a look um and again there's there's one in most most of our shire counties but have a look at Cheshire Community Action. I will do yeah um and um they provide most of the support to our village halls in Cheshire um and I I don't know what's on their website about village halls but I bet there's something.

Why Jackie Never Rewatches The Clip

Marc Smith 47:20

Excellent I will definitely have a look at that because I'm looking for inspiration for what we can do as the the podcast because if it's just an odd um an audio thing but it can be so much more and especially as our listeners are are growing every every podcast uh it certainly makes bit sense so I've only got one more question for you uh I'll say just Jackie not Jackie Weaver Jackie uh when your video appears on social I assume you've got Facebook uh if you if you scroll past and you see it do you rewatch it like everybody else does oh gosh no do you not oh no and and actually one of the things I I mean I I during that kind of two years following that um I did a lot of TV stuff.

Jackie Weaver 48:03

Yeah I watched a few of them yeah I never do oh really never and and I I made a conscious decision not to um very early on I mean sometimes I catch something you know it comes on the telly and it just just there um I made a conscious decision very early not to because I thought if I if I actually see and hear myself because it it it I don't listen to what I what I said either I know I'll start to edit myself yep um and one of the one of the things that made it possible for me to do as much as I did was that what you saw is what I am. Yeah yeah um it wasn't curated in any way and my fear was that if I started to watch myself I would start to um change how I was coming across I'd think about how people were seeing me rather than just being this is me.

Marc Smith 49:00

Yeah it's a nice way to be actually yeah because you would I think the human element you would just you you would yeah oh my god no I can't do that again oh oh no oh my mother was right I shouldn't smile like that no no it it it would go downhill because like my my girlfriend jazz she doesn't listen to the podcast because she gets enough of my voice at home the funny thing is do you do you recognize your voice? I do I actually do voiceovers I well I I might actually I started my job as an animator 20 years ago right and a lot of the time I would record the voiceover so I could animate before commissioning the final voiceover so I would do the voiceover for the video so I listened to my voice constantly and it was I stopped annoying myself because it was like you know because it was it would be repetitive because it's the same maybe five frames you were animating or maybe 25 frames. So you'd constantly hear it and you just blanked it out. So even when I listen back to the podcast when I I don't really edit them I cut out any bits any any slight blips but it's not me talking so I don't think that much about about it. And I think but I think it's the voiceover part of me you know be from doing the animations it's done that rather than it just being an organic um way of being because I I think it when I first started doing the voiceovers I'm that's I don't like my voice at all I speak too fast but I've had a lot of American customers so I I try and slow down you know so I've got my podcast voice in my normal my normal voice like my phone voice like hi Synth Bouquet you know like you know yeah that's kind of what I've got for the for the podcast.

Closing Thanks And Sponsors

Jackie Weaver 50:40

Yeah I I'm I'm not getting that you speak particularly fast. I I know a lot of Scots do. I think I speak quite slowly. For the mother mill last yes yes um maybe it's to make it sound like I I actually know what I'm talking about. Necessarily true um actually I did um I did a um a recording of the book I did look for an audio it's an audio book as well and I went into um studio in strange experience well you know all about it but went into strange experience and uh I went over to this um studio uh just recorded it in one um it was it wasn't hard to do because the nice thing about the book of course is it's my voice yeah yeah um you do prefer an audiobook if it's the real person reading it yeah it and and it it reads as my voice so it it's not um um you know the breathing's okay and stuff I didn't have any problem read it just read it through and that was it done no no second takes or anything um which apparently was somewhat unusual um so we did it in in in one go um I've never listened to it um but on the occasion when I've heard myself on TV or something that does not sound like me it's not like I think I sound well it's been it's been a fascinating chat I could chat a lot more but it's been I don't know you're a you're a busy lady anyway but it's been a real pleasure to speak with you it has been um on my mind for a while I thought there's no way you would respond to an email if I was to ask you it is a relevant it's a relevant topic I you know but I'm so glad you decided to come on because your knowledge after I read your book I thought well you you have so much knowledge on the on on on just basically on meetings just chairing meetings and managing people really I thought it's it's a no-brainer to have you on so thank you very much for for coming on it's been a real real pleasure to speak with you and I'm sure all our listeners will think the same. It it's been a pleasure spending some time with you too and if in the future um I can be of any assistance to your village hall committee if you want me to come and um if you want me to come and talk about something else then um you got my number.

Marc Smith 52:59

Accept it thanks it is many thanks to our headline sponsor and specialist village hall insurance provider Allied Westminster the home of VillageGuard for making this podcast possible and to online booking system provider Hallmaster who also sponsor our podcast and can be found at hallmaster.co.uk You've been listening to the Village Halls Podcast a unique listening community for Britain's village, community and church halls and anyone interested in the vital community services they provide. We'll be back again soon with another episode. For more information please visit the Villagehallspodcast.com where you'll also find links to our social media pages. Thanks again for listening in and until the next time goodbye for now