6 Years & 100 Episodes: What in the World Has Happened?

In this special 100th episode of The Weekly Bioanalysis, hosts John Perkins and Dominic Warrino are joined on camera by KCAS Bio CEO John Bucksath and Chief Commercial Officer Amy Mize to celebrate a major milestone. Together, they reflect on the podcast's origins during the uncertainty of the COVID-19 pandemic and how it evolved into a trusted industry platform over the past six years. The conversation explores the remarkable growth of KCAS Bio, from a single local laboratory to a globally recognized bioanalytical partner with an expanding international presence. Along the way, the group discusses the role The Weekly Bioanalysis has played in strengthening industry connections, sharing scientific insights, and helping tell the KCAS Bio story. It's a fitting look back at the people, conversations, and achievements that helped shape both the podcast and the company over its first 100 episodes. 

“The Weekly Bioanalysis” is a podcast dedicated to discussing bioanalytical news, tools and services related to the pharmaceutical, biopharmaceutical and biomarker industries. Every month, KCAS Bio will bring you another 60 minutes (or so) of friendly banter between our two finest Senior Scientific Advisors as they chat over coffee and discuss what they’ve learned about the bioanalytical world the past couple of weeks. “The Weekly Bioanalysis” is brought to you by KCAS Bio.

KCAS Bio is a progressive growing contract research organization of well over 250 talented and dedicated individuals with growing operations in Kansas City, Doylestown, PA, and Lyon, France, where we are committed to serving our clients and improving health worldwide. Our experienced scientists provide stand-alone bioanalytical services to the pharmaceutical, biopharmaceutical, animal health and medical device industries.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:03

Welcome to the weekly bioanalysis, a KCAS bio podcast.

SPEAKER_03 0:09

Hello and welcome to the weekly bioanalysis episode 100. Um, like number 50, we're doing it in person and on camera. And we it's it's the like as we mentioned, our our introduction for every episode has been the same. This one we're doing slightly differently. Um, but it is uh the weekly bioanalysis is a podcast by KCAS Bio. We're a contract lab in in Olathe, Kansas, and um we we support the biopharmaceutical pharmaceutical industry and have done for around 40 years. Um we started this podcast because COVID shut us down, we we we couldn't visit our customers, so we we settled on this structure fairly quickly, and it's it's a chance for us to to reach out and and just talk about the the pharmaceutical industry and what we do. Um I'm John Perkins, I've been doing uh uh bioanalytical LCMS for around 30 years. Six of those have been at KCAS Bio, and I'm here with Dominic Warino, my co-host.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

Yeah. Hi, Dominic Warino. Um been in the Ligan Binding Assay and Biomarket Space for close to 30 years. Very excited to be recording live today, our 100th podcast here in good old Aletha, Kansas, Kansas City area. But we are a global company located in Philadelphia and Lyon as well. But uh we're very excited. Uh normally we would uh be just no no video, but we're um, you know, for those of you that haven't joined the podcast before, we're gonna go over some news and notes. We're gonna go into our main agenda, which is gonna be reflecting upon 20 years of doing the podcast. Sorry, six years of doing the podcast. And um yeah, no, and then we'll get some hot seat questions and uh yeah, and if you're not familiar with the podcast, it can be found uh virtually anywhere. You can download podcasts now that we're again creeping up on number 100. You can find it on Google, Apple, YouTube, wherever you may find your podcast, you can find us. And so, John, uh, I don't know if you have anything to add to our intro, but otherwise, we'll just jump right in. Exactly. Let's get going. John, as usual, let's just kick it off with the news and notes.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

Okay. Um, first up is uh talking about a what really is a drug that's um dealing with a non what what we thought was a previously non-druggable target in pancreatic cancer, and it's talking about RASP RAS drugs. Um, it's the AACR um meeting, the American Association for Cancer Research. That was data presented by Revolution Medicine. Um, they've they previously reported that they got some good results for patients with metastatic disease, but this is dealing with showing more data and the survivability of Diraxon Racid, which is something I've been practicing all morning to pronounce. Um, and it's talking about their drug alone in combination with um with other with other drugs. And the the excitement about this is it's it's not like I say this is sort of advertising for evolutionary medicine here, but it's really we're moving into a realm where there are actually drugs on the market for disindication, but there's the risk of um uh resistance, etc. But the approach of um this dar Diraxon RASIB um is to inhibit the RAS protein. Um, and this RAS protein is vital for the survival of several cancers, and like we mentioned at the beginning, pancreatic cancer. Um, and it does this by acting as a glue that sticks RAS to another protein, cyclofilin A, shuts off the RAS's ability to drive cell growth and then shut and division and effectively shut it down. And this is this is huge.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

So it is no uh pancreatic cancer is a real tough therapy, yeah. You know, tough cancer to treat. There's I think there's only one or two drugs on the market, so this is really wonderful for anybody with pancreatic cancer. Yeah, John, pancreatic cancer is real uh tough, tough uh cancer to treat. There's not them not that not too many drugs on the market available for it. This is a wonderful breakthrough for anybody with that type of disorder. Um, you know, the the AACA AACR meetings are great, so this is wonderful news out of there. Um, you know, glues, these glues are kind of cool. They're really new things. I like the way this mechanism of action works. It binds to cycle uh cyclofilin A. Uh the drug itself does, and then it inactivates the enzyme. Really uh wonderful story about uh a really uh hard hard therapy to treat. And then like this uh non-druggable, maybe you want to talk a little bit about that because that's something that um you hear a lot about. It's not a it's not a uh a druggable um candidate, right? That's that's the language that's often used. And this this sort of comes around it. You alluded to it earlier, where um, you know, a lot of people become resistant to it, and this allows to sort of help prevent that. And then I don't know if you want to touch a little bit more about some of the future iterations of the drug, but I'll I'll kind of throw it back at you.

SPEAKER_03 5:13

I think there's yeah, there's a they've got a lot in the pipeline because this has been a lot of revolution medicine's focus, is is the the RAS approach. So they've got Diraction RASIB, um it works against multiple different mutations. They have others, uh, Zoldon RASIB, which is a less it is one particular mutation it goes after. Um, and they've also got other ones coming through. Um, they've got a catalytic RAS inhibitor known as RM055, and it's using different mechanisms. So it's it's all going at RAS, but using different mechanisms to to deal with it. So hopefully you've then got these different approaches that will be helpful for patients in the long run. Yeah. So the the RM055 flips activated RAS into an inactivated state. So that's the the the Diracon RASIB acts as the glue to sh bind it to a protein, shut that, shut it down. The RM055 is a different um different mechanism. And it is talking about let's see, um the there was one of the um author one of the experts talking um about tumours are being clever because they can adapt. Um when the RAS they depend on is gummed up, they can adapt by simply churning out more and more of the protein to overcome the inhibitory effects. So this RM055 um does what these other the drugs that are furthered in development can do, but by flipping it the ras into an inactive state, then it's countering that ability of the tumour to increase the production of protein. So yeah, it it's it it's it it's just fascinating. You know, again, we talk about this all the time, the progress we're seeing in medical research. And in the course of you know, the six years we've been doing this, we're talking we've been taught ended up talking about drugs that six years ago it would never even be.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Yeah, no, there was this glue concept didn't even exist. The way they talk about the tumors being clever, that's a tumor microenvironment. The tumor does a whole series of things to help prevent itself to live, and RAS plays a key uh source of, I believe it's a source of nutrition or some form of like uh proliferation, excuse me. I think it helps causes hyperproliferation. You cut that, you know, this drug itself through this mechanism, stops that RAS production, inactivates the enzyme, and therefore kind of helps kill the cancer. Um, what's interesting about this is uh a couple more disease states they're looking at. Um, I believe it was colorectal cancer and lung. Is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, really those solid tumors, as they're kind of called, are really difficult diseases to treat because of that tumor microenvironment. You really got to get directly into the site of where the tumor is. So um a couple other stories out of AACR, which is always a good meeting. I think there's a couple other companies that are looking into this class therapeutics, Vera STEM, and uh Blossom Hill therapeutics. So I think those, I think these glues, and we do, I believe we're working on one um one cup, one company's I believe we do have a um uh uh one of the therapies we're working on for validation of a method for a glue type drug. But I don't have anything else to add other than it's it's really is a wonderful, like you said, in the last over the last six years, if we when we started this podcast, you would have never heard about a glue-type drug.

SPEAKER_03 8:35

I think what we'll see is this is really the first time talking about this, but we have touched on solid tumors before. So what we'll see is more and more of these kind of articles coming through where we're getting more success with tumors that we really weren't getting close to touching before. Yeah. So I mean that's why we touched on this. So let's let's move on to the next thing. Um, this is actually digging back into the past, another favored theme. Um, how a 20-year-old asthma drug is boosting food allergy research. I think any of us with kids are always aware of you know the effect of of foods on on, you know, it we seem to see increasing food allergies, etc. My daughter isn't so much foods, but a lot of different substances, so it's like m metals, she can't wear synthetic fibres, and it's it's something that really accelerated once she had COVID, and and so she's been dealing with that. So the thought that there's drugs that might eventually help with with that is is great. But this is actually interesting because it's not just we we there was a uh we will touch on it later, but there's a drug that was approved for peanut allergy um a year or two ago. The company was bought by Nestle, but it never really went anywhere. This is it's it's almost like we're cycling back through. We've we've had the you know, we've had obesity where you know it's become a huge multi-billion dollar um market, and food allergies are out there, but it's actually Zolaire, which is a 23-year-old asthma medication, may actually be the trigger to kick off what could be another multi-billion dollar uh market. So basically, Zolaire is approved for asthma, and then it was a it's it's expand its approval was expanded into food allergies, and currently it's a four billion dollar a year drug. Um from there, there are a lot of other um companies are now starting to move back into this area and see well, what what where can we go with this? And and so it it could be quite exciting to to watch where this goes.

SPEAKER_02 10:44

So yeah, no, Zolaire's near and dear to my heart. It's it's a very old, it's an older drug. I think it's coming off patent, but it it basically mops up IgE. And the story is wonderful. I I have very fortunate to have been able to work on some of that, some of the mess methods for um not only PK, but also ADA. It was tricky. The IgE space is a little bit complex. Uh very the reason why this the delay from going from treating allergy, uh excuse me, from treating asthma to allergy, and the story the article notes that is you know, pediatric trials are somewhat of a no-no because you know, causing some sort of you know uh allergic response. IgEs are really anaphylactic type things, and so they they really scare the physician, scare the family. So this drug really had not ever gone anywhere other than inside of the allergy space, and moving into food is um sorry, it was in the asthma space and moving into the food allergies is wonderful. And actually, um I met Dr. Wood, I know him. Okay, yeah, okay. He's referenced in here, he's out of John Hopkins, right? Sure. Oh, yeah. And so he's been he was yeah, he was a big allergy and immunology physician and really wanted to push this drug. And he's he's actually the one that got it into the pediatric setting, right? Okay so um I'll maybe you can chime back in.

SPEAKER_03 12:00

Yeah, I think we'll talk about some of the numbers. In 2024, the CDC estimated about 18 million adults of four mil four million children reported an allergy to at least one food. So it tells you the scope of the market there. And to talk about that um you're the the unwillingness to test, and this is some somewhat is the FDA but was was at the root of it, where um basically it is the reluctance to to expose children to severe allergic reactions because a lot some of these drugs are you know modified forms of the allergen that you're admin you're administering to try and build up a a resistance. So that there's this caution about doing that, so the drugs never went anywhere. Um because that's why it's this article touches on Zolar's approved 23 years ago, but it's only really now it's cycling back because I think the the it was partly the um it was the the drug that I alluded to earlier from AI Imune where that moved to approval so it it put a little bit more attention on this, and then how can we a bit more it's not more just attention but acceptance, yeah. And so it's the acceptance to to try these drugs to get because it's it's an unmet need. I mean, sure, you know, it's like you I I don't no longer get peanuts on flights because because there's that concern if someone on the flight has a peanut allergy, you don't want to set on the side. Whole sections of stadiums don't serve peanuts now. I miss my peanuts to be quite honest. Yeah, not a big pretzel fan, so the peanuts were a big deal, or loss of peanuts was a big deal. Um yeah, so yeah, you like you say it was it's IGEs and and so it's um yeah, I it it I think this again is another one to watch into where what what we'll see coming.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

It's it's really a cool way that this works because most of your IgEs are you know, you need them, they fight parasites, they do also they activate your basophils, they really help the body a lot, a lot of big part of the innate immune system. But in this case, this actually looks for free IgE. So it that's that's a key component of how this drug works is that it doesn't bind to the Iggs that are the IgEs that are in there kind of acting naturally, because IgEs turn over um pretty quickly. And so uh the whole concept of binding it up in in uh non-complex form inactivates and therefore thereby you're tolerating the actual peanuts and so forth. Because it doesn't, it's not that it's specific to any specific allergy. It actually could, or it could really be very beneficial for not just peanuts, but it seems like it might have benefit for anybody with allergies. And if you've listened to this podcast in the past, you know as I've gotten older, I'm starting to develop some allergies. So I actually even not that they're severe enough to want to take a biologic like Zolar, but um, I'm still relatively young and who knows. But I think it's a wonderful sort of um biologic that could be very useful for anybody that has, you know, adult onset allergies, but certainly back to the article itself. As you mentioned, there's like four million, you know, adolescents that might be you know needing something like this could really help with the quality of life. Sure. Um, but then it's an interesting story around the biosimilar piece. I don't want to drill on that. Meaning because it's been it's been on the market for so long that you know there are biosimilars coming out from a number of companies, and I know they cite them on here, but what I find most interesting is there's a little note that says, hey, you know, it might it might not be that big of a cost savings, is what I think funny because of some of the regulations around it, as well as now if if and I'm not a biosimilar expert, but what they're saying is you have to demonstrate more efficacy than the actual innovator drug, is what they note there. So that might be a tall task for any sort of biosimilar. But you know, it's this is it's always nice to read an article that puts me back to this is something I worked on before I even joined KCAS Bio. So it was uh near and dear to me and really complex assays, like I've always kind of preached. Any sort of drug that has a lot of efficacy is tend to tends to be a bioanalytical nightmare. And it was really hard to determine if there was any free IgE. As I kind of mentioned, it was actually part of the way we looked for it was with a cell-based assay. We used some basophils to kind of determine if the if you had truly inactivated all the IgE. So cool story there. Even got to look at some anti-IgE antibodies, which could be very dangerous.

SPEAKER_03 16:18

Okay, oh really?

SPEAKER_02 16:20

Uh well, because like if you start complexing those IgEs, they can be they can really cause anaphylaxis. I do that that get getting back to why this is taken 20 years before any pediatrician was willing to take this on. Sure. And so, like, you know, kind of gets into the same space as um trying to vac trying to create vaccines for pregnant women as well. Because there are some vaccines that are readily available, present any sort of grandzyme B stillbirths, but you know, who who wants to take the risk of you know, vaccinating pregnant women? But it's it's a great story and it's near to dear to my heart. And good luck to all those, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:53

What are your triggers? What do you mean by triggers? Wait, your upcoming you say your notes analogies, what what sets you off? Oh my dad used to be convinced he was allergic to green peppers and nutmeg.

SPEAKER_02 17:06

It's funny, there's one that really troubles me, it might be alcohol. So every once in a while, yeah. If I have a beer or two, especially beer, if I drink a beer, my nose gets real stuffy. Yeah. The vodkas and whiskies, I'm okay, but a beer can make my nose stuffy.

SPEAKER_03 17:20

And then the Haraxia Harelder brother developed uh allergy to alcohol later in life as well.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

Then I think it's even like sometimes when I'm out on the golf course, if I walk through the wrong patch of grass, that'll cause it as well. So it's it's kind of universal, certainly dust, but it's it's something that um, you know, I I I I'm not sure how to combat it other than you know, taking some sort of uh Zertec in the morning really helps a lot.

SPEAKER_03 17:43

So yeah, so I'd seasonal with a month I'm I'm a month to Lucas person after Claritin and Zertek, I couldn't have any effect. So this time of the year is is my month to Lucas time, then it all wears off. But there's certain pollens that I'm allergic to that for a number of people will set off allergies when you eat particular fruits of similar proteins. It's all called oral allergy syndrome. Yeah. Oh, you go inside my nose and ears and everything. It cheeses, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:13

No, I don't have any not severe enough to merit any medication, but it's you know Yeah, my mine's nose gets a little stuffy sometimes on alcohol, and then it'll run if I'm it seems like I have like a dual thing, some seasonal allergies, and like if I'm indoors too much, dust might cause it. But anyhow, it is uh it's not easy getting old, I can tell you. Let's move on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:34

We've had enough of our tangent.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

Yeah, no, this next one's always right up my eye.

SPEAKER_03 18:37

So we're yeah, well, I mean, we're back to really allergies, but uh a different different kind of allergy almost. Uh so one woman, three autoimmune diseases, CAR T therapy vanquishes ultra-rare disease trio. This is amazing because it's obviously we talk about CAR T's and their administration for oncology, and that there is active um research looking at CAR T's for um autoimmune diseases. But this was a woman in Germany who had three autoimmune diseases, um and so the only way that they could find give a call to your life, or it was I mean, it was obviously it was it was uh going out uh a researcher going out on a limb by himself, trying a CART approach to see if that would have an effect. And effectively it's eliminated her disease for at present. Yeah, she hasn't been. Almost two years or something, right? Yeah, so I'll I'll just read a little bit of the introduction here. A woman with an ultra-rare combination of three autoimmune diseases had had no symptoms since receiving a single dose of engineered immune cells doctors in Germany's report. She'd previously received nine other types of treatment without getting better, could no longer work, was sometimes bedridden with week for weeks with pain and fatigue. Um so it's like she had um it basically it was it was her B cells with the issue. Um they were making antibodies that attacked her own red blood cells, causing the disease, autoimmune hemolytic anemia. They also attacked her platelets, causing immune thrombocytopenia, and some fat binding proteins causing antiphospholipid symptoms. So and and like like uh so they it basically when she had her blood transfusions at least on an average once a day, or sometimes three bags a day. I mean, we're talking a really poor quality of life, and so it was um let me see if I can find um it was where we've got can't find Hospital Erligan. Is it? Oh, here we go. It's um Fabian Mueller, a hematologist at University Hospital Erlangen in Germany, who who helped to treat her and co-authored the report on this. So I'll pass it to you.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

No, so as John mentioned, she had three diseases. I mean, all sorts of nine therapies, blood transfusions daily. Give her this cock just shot of CAR T, and suddenly she's living kind of medication-free. And a lot of people that they kind of refer to it, you gotta take two handfuls of pills to when you are have these sorts of disorders. And so, maybe a small step back, if you're not familiar with CAR T cells, those are in this case, it's an autologous therapy. They they kind of take your cells out of your body, they engineer them against a specific uh CART T cell receptor. They do that typically through some sort of um viral vector of some sort. They don't go into great detail about how they do the therapy here, um, but as John mentioned, it it goes after B cells. And so through through this mechanism of either, I believe they're depleting the B cells and thereby preventing any antibodies from binding to it, and therefore uh allows her to live kind of a normal life.

SPEAKER_03 21:41

What it says here, they harvested the women's T cells that engineered them to attack a protein found only on B cells.

SPEAKER_02 21:46

Yeah, so it could be yeah, they don't really dive out yet. Exactly. Um, but I'm sure it like the so uh we've talked about the local Kansas University Medical Center. It's all public knowledge, they have a car T cell therapy that's actually targeting three. B cell receptors. It's like 19, um, CD19, CD20, and I think CD21. I'm guessing, I don't know if that's what they do here. It might be something different because that's treating leukemia and lymphoma, but although it could be somewhat similar. I would imagine one of the um, but it it still seems to be, I mean, what a great story. You go from almost bedridden, needing unbelievable tons of therapeutics, your quality of life is completely diminished. And then along comes this one-shot deal. And yeah, they do reference Carl June, who's the actual like kind of the godfather and like an idol of mine for CAR T cells. And he talks about that this woman shouldn't even be alive without this, right? So it's really a I mean, I I don't know. Um maybe you can if you want to jump in here, but the the the traditional autologous CAR T this is a great story, but I do think the the field is moving towards those in vivo ones. Yeah. But this is a great, just because of the cost. And if our audience isn't familiar with in vivo, instead of using one's cells and manipulating the ex vivo of the body, they're injecting the uh individuals with the virus themselves or the the vector itself and allowing the host machinery to do it, which might take a $2 million therapy down to maybe a $10,000 vaccine, right? So even less. So really fabulous story there. But maybe back to this article. I I don't know. I I'm still somewhat shocked that in our lifetime, um, if you're new to the podcast, I worked on autologous T cells back in the 90s. We didn't really know what we were doing. Fast forward to today, we go 30 35 years later, 30 years later. And man, that this individual, I know it's like an N of one, but certainly holds the future of like ways to treat like just things we thought were almost untreatable. Sure. Um, even learning about allergies and immunos when I got my immunology degree, learning about allergies and asthma and stuff like that. I always thought it was like an area where, hey, I'm just that that might not be something I'd stay away from that as a therapeutic and fast forward to today. And it it is definitely something that that is really treatable now with these types of therapeutic.

SPEAKER_03 24:02

When just to go back to Carl June, the last thing that it attributes to me says there's about 200 clinical trials currently looking at CAL T for autoimmune conditions. So again, it's another space for like good to hear of a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

I know we do a lot of it. It's they're fascinating therapies, uh really complex, and they have complex assays, several assays are needed to treat it. Uh John, I know we have one more, but maybe for time's sake you want to skip that one.

SPEAKER_03 24:27

Then we'll do it quickly because we have a good chance to expand on what's happening here in June. Go ahead. Um, yeah, so this is very quick. It's basically Halion Scores Branding Goal with Star-Studdied Soccer Offensive. Um, Halion, who used to who I think spun out from GSK, sell a lot of the household medications that we we use, sort of like sensordyne toothpaste and advil. And as I looked at the promo photo for this, but this is actually using Tyler Adams, who plays for Bournemouth in in England, um, at the centre of an ad campaign to sort about the support its products provide. And they're tying us in with the World Cup. That's that's why I would talk about this because obviously we've got the World Cup coming in a month's time, and this is Kansas is obvious Kansas City is obviously one of the hotbeds where things are happening. I just thought to give you a chance to expand what's going on.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

Yeah, it's always nice to see US players in the Premier League. You don't see enough of them, but Tyler Adams is quite a good player. And you know, here in Kansas City, the World Cup is just dominating the news. It's been on a countdown. I think we're almost under 30 days until the official kickoff. I'm sure when you got off the airport, all you saw was World Cup. It does a fair bit of it. It's kind of everywhere. And uh I'm I think I'm gonna make at least a game or two. I'm pretty excited about it. Um won't go to the Argentinian game, though, although Messi will be in town here. But you can feel the electricity in the in the city here with this. And um, yeah, hats off to Haleon for uh you know supporting the World Cup, and we're pretty excited about here in Kansas City. Yeah, so John, uh excited to be doing our 100th podcast. Why don't you kick us off with the main portion today?

SPEAKER_03 26:02

Sure. So as we've said already, it's 100 podcasts down, which has been um six years in the making. And so we thought it would be nice to talk about why where we were in 2020. Or tw yeah, 2020, um the reason for the podcast and just what's happened at KCAS over the last six years, because it's been an exciting time to be part of the uh part of the company. Today we're joined by two very special guests, John Boxarth, the CEO, and Amy Maies, the Chief Commercial Officer at KCAS Bio. 2020 at KCAS, I'd been with the company around five months um as part of the scientific advisor team. It was a case of I was out on the road a lot with the um with the uh business development directors, and we then started hearing in the media about the emergence of COVID. And you know, I I was actually in North Carolina as things started to close down, we're down research triangle, and the first inkling we had really of it affecting us was we were three of us were driving to visit a customer in in RTP, and we got this phone call to say, um, have any of you travelled abroad in the last couple of weeks? Um, would you mind if we took our temperatures when you arrive? And we're like, no, we haven't been out, we take our temperatures, etc. And so we did the meeting, and then it was so that was the first England. Then the following week for me, I was actually back in Kansas City and um it it was the I I I'd intended to stay to the Thursday of the week. By the Tuesday of the week, it was obvious that local businesses were closing. So I was I'd as as someone who was travelling, there were no restaurants for me to eat at because I I could only get takeout food. And then um I said, right, I'm I'm uh brought my foot trip forward home to Wednesday, flew through Philadelphia Airport as a ghost town, and that was like we could see things slowly um shutting down. Actually, I stuck stopped jumped ahead a bit because I really want to talk about where KCAS were in 2020. That was my experience of the transition and what COVID caused. But at the time we were in a different building. Um, it was exciting to join in 2019 because it it coincided roughly with the introduction of new business lines. There was DOS formulation, there was the hybrid LCMS, there was the uh the discovery team, there was a lot happening in terms of new science kicking off, and you could see it was a a company that was knew where it wanted to go, and then COVID obviously sort of kind of put a well what you were right to put a uh a sort of stop in that, or but we you have to pivot and deal with that. So I'll pass it to you. Well that's why that's that's my perspective.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

When they proposed this idea of doing the podcast, that that's what drove it. Yeah, absolutely. We were unable to travel. And so, you know, the whole concept of this podcast, I was like, who in their right mind would want to listen to us? However, it has been flattering to be here for a hundred episodes. And as John alluded to, when we it started in 2020, it was uh we had just started launching our discovery services, our dose formulation, and our hybrid services. And maybe as the two of you were kind of, I don't know, really involved with that. I don't know if you want to comment on where we were back in 2020 and just the evolution of that and how it kind of really drove us into the building we're in today. I don't know, maybe you any thoughts and comments around how how when we started launching dose form discovery and hybrid, was were you scared at all? Were you worried about it? Was there anything that you thought were troubling, or were these these just and and John, you know, we've we've been working together 10 years now, right? And so if we even want to go a step back back further, we can really reflect and think, man, how did we even do it back then to get to where we are today? But you know, launching those things, I mean, I know there was in my for me, it was like I knew the hybrid piece was going to take off because that was where protein mass spec and by you know biologics was going. But I didn't know that much about, you know, we we had we had done some discovery, but I'd say we weren't really that great at it because we were just so rigid and we wanted everything to be perfect, and Discovery wants it rough and ready. And then dose form was somewhat new to me. But those those were service lines that I don't know if there was trepidation because of COVID, but it didn't slow them down. And it really, those, those things really took off kind of out of the gate. And I don't know, those were those were some of the things that allowed us to go into the new investments. But we have the ability to go anywhere we want with this. But I don't know if you want to talk about those service lines and how it led to certain things or even just the the vision of the building we're in today, which I'm sure was a big part of what we were working on during COVID.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Well, well, absolutely. Just jumping in, uh adding new service lines, the company was really starting to make some traction along the way, and we've done a great job of putting the business cases together, securing the investments, bringing in the equipment, but most importantly, bringing in the talent. And then from there, all of a sudden, this huge unknown shows up in the form of COVID. And uh laying awake many nights wondering, hey, is this going to be a huge downturn in industry? What are we gonna do? How are we gonna keep our people safe? How are we gonna keep people motivated? Are they even are they literally gonna shut down the business? So there was just so many things going on. I remember making just phone call after phone call to anybody who could get some information. I think for me, the biggest challenge was at the time is who's on first, what's on second in this situation, uh, who really has the answers and who doesn't. Um from there, uh the one thing that was clear we had to write and be prepared for a plan. I remember writing, starting that plan uh coming back from San Francisco on a plane um after visiting some customers and noticing uh at that time this was February, you know, the big question was, hey, this new virus is happening in China. Oh my goodness, is it gonna make it to the US? It didn't take me long to figure out that it was already here, which, you know, come on, we're all in the business, we knew it was here. It's just a matter of it um, you know, when was going to be the scenario. So getting back, you know, writing our plan, putting that together, uh, just constantly wondering, you know, are is this gonna be a huge impact to the organization? And of course I was thinking negatively, but now I think we've all looked back and say, wow, it's you know, it was one of the most um disrupting aspects in our industry from the aspect that it really brought the industry to life from into into the public's eyes and what the industry could do. And um, you know, the public tends to have a negative view of large pharma and the biotech industries, and I think this was one chance to really see it go to work and produce life-saving products and uh in a record amount of time. Um, that in our teams, you know, we were an exempt organization. So uh we were allowed to continue in operations. And, you know, I think once everybody kind of stopped, looked around, and said, Hey, how are we still going to continue the business? Um, and wondering if there was going to be any business, it didn't take long to figure out that, hey, maybe something's happening here, and maybe I'll turn it over to Amy and maybe she can talk about that portion of where it went. And uh, you know, sometimes I look at her, scratch my head, and say, Are you sure um this is what's happening? So Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:26

Yeah, when I think back to that time, I think the things that are most memorable is how the team that was outwardly facing visiting customers all the time really had to regroup and find a different way to reach people. I think before those days we didn't have Zoom and Teams meetings all day long. And today that is one evolution that has changed quite a bit that we've kept since the days of COVID. But I also remember just watching the laboratory, people still come to work and how we had to adapt around that. So the podcast was one evolution of that, as you mentioned, and um finding new ways to reach our customers, to meet with people, to keep the word of KCAS bio still going and all of those things. And I also remember reflecting on unique times that the company was really in a place, and I was really impressed what we did for people. So what we did for our own employees during that time and some of the dinners that we brought in on Fridays for people to then take home to their families so that they would have food and all the things that our people operations team really did to recognize the employees during that time. So I remember it was a difficult time, but also just being very proud to be part of an organization that was able to adapt and accommodate and really push forward and succeed through a really difficult time. And we've certainly come a long way with a lot of great people and a lot of new service offerings and new science and new technology that has come on board. But it certainly was a good time to reflect on and just see how far we've come.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

Dominic, you may let me inspire me. You asked a question I didn't answer. You said, Well, how maybe how it impacted this building? Um, at this point in time, it reaffirmed we definitely needed to expand. I was thinking about that.

SPEAKER_03 34:58

The decision we had the minimum drooling and then and then well it would it was already a cramped facility to then say on top of that now people can be within X feet of each other and remember these the satellite buildings, etc., to to to take to ensure that he could keep people apart.

SPEAKER_01 35:18

Yeah, necessity was the mother of all of innovation, right? And so we made it work. Um we stuck by the rules and the teams and especially in the labs did amazing jobs. Uh but you know, they were willing to work extra hours to help, you know, volunteer to get in and really develop those plans. And, you know, we'd set the direction and the teams just come up with ways to get things done and still, you know, deliver the data, the quality of data on time. It was it was just really, really inspiring to see.

SPEAKER_02 35:49

Yeah, you stayed ahead of the curve because a lot of clients were asking us how we were doing it. They had a lot of concerns because you know, the as you kind of mentioned, what what was gonna happen? Was it gonna be fearful? Or what we what we suddenly realized was with everybody else's lab shut down, people were really caught ringing our doorbell quite a bit for work. And so I do remember early on a lot of people wanted protocols, and we always seemed to be slightly ahead of everybody. We were taking temperatures, we were doing a lot of things, um, before before it was like um, I guess the normal process during COVID. Uh so just for the sake of time, um I know uh I think I think maybe you want to take a second about trying to build a new building during COVID. Do you want to talk about that at all? I think that was maybe should be an achievement that we can maybe clip on real fast and how we manage that.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

Well, from our previous facility to to really go where the vision was taking us, uh, I knew we were gonna have to have a facility that could keep up with the talent that we had. Um, you know, bringing on and investing in our commercial and our operational talent in a growing market. It was inevitable that uh my job is to stay out in front of front of the team and make sure you have the tools of the trade and um that represented the quality and uh capabilities and competence that the organization had. So um, so yeah, in 2020, literally the plans for the building were made, uh, the financing was in, and that was just yet another, you know, haymaker, if you will, coming around with COVID. You know, is this going to derail all of this? But uh once, you know, as Amy's saying, it was once we we really started moving forward and seeing the demand and watching things, um, you know, it was it was pick a path, and the path for me was, hey, we need to go at this, you know, 200%. Um, so you know, what does that look like? Yes, we were sitting in, you know, uh social distancing rooms and things, still negotiating with the banks and and buying the land and and going faster, and everybody said, you know, even our investors at the time said, You're crazy if you think you can build a building when all these supply chains and so on and so forth. And I said, Look, we've I've built many buildings and I've got a pretty good idea how this works. And um, you know, it was some risk, but I think the bigger risk was waiting. And um, you know, sometimes you have to take a little bit of risk. We did it, it worked out well on time, on budget. We're sitting here today. Yeah, and um so look back, it was it was a good decision.

SPEAKER_03 38:13

Well, really happy. Sorry, if I don't the supply chain thing was very real because I remember uh just domestically uh we lost our ovens. Our oven broke and it took us, I think, eight months to replace it. First of all, we couldn't get it, and then when we got it, we couldn't get electric inspector to come in, we couldn't get people to install it. So and it wasn't just us, that was just the one instance that we were aware of. But y you sort of forget how how delayed things were in terms of just making things happen.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

Yeah, absolutely absolutely. One of the one of the things I asked from our investors is I had the authority to sign off on buying materials. Okay, here's um because sometimes it was literally on the phone all day long trying to find the appropriate steel. And if I found it, they if if I didn't buy it within the second I had it, somebody else was in line. And so I think I spent more time and learned more about steel uh over about a month and a half period. But we literally secured an order uh coming from China uh at the time, which was where the the issues were, right? Supply and demand issue, but uh that was the linchpin. Once we had that, then we knew we had to, you know, we make concrete here and all those type of things. But once we had the infrastructure, I knew we had to get minimally the building to a certain point. And if we had the steel and the concrete and aspects, it could be delayed a bit. But uh, but no, it ended up being a great decision. We we really took off from there. As we all know, the market started investing heavier, and outsourcing just went through the roof uh later in 2020 and 21, which was you know, time it couldn't be any better at that point in time because we we simply could not have kept up doing what we were doing at the former facility.

SPEAKER_03 39:56

Yeah, we were busted out of the scene from there. Yeah, and when you say outsourcing going out of the roof, how I mean, I I personally can't remember how did that affect the commercial team because we couldn't go and see people, was it was all reliant on teams, or what what were the team doing different, or was it just there was so much work we Yeah, I think in the what I remember in the very beginning, there wasn't so much work.

SPEAKER_00 40:19

We really had to go after it. So we had to be really aggressive and change our process and change how we work to to meet people and reach people. So obviously a lot of virtual meeting and a lot of um things of that nature. But it in the beginning it wasn't easy and it got a little easier, but we had to adapt. And I think every month we were looking at what worked, what didn't work, changing marketing strategies, changing outreach.

SPEAKER_02 40:39

Um doing a podcast.

SPEAKER_03 40:42

Well, I'm gonna touch on that because the the podcast obviously we're here at number 100. I'm so glad that the two-minute choos these died out.

SPEAKER_04 40:50

That was that was the idea.

SPEAKER_03 40:54

Yeah, it was an idea, but I mean yes, it was a basically if for people who don't who have never seen one, don't go looking. Um it was it was us doing a two-minute presentation on a subject of our choosing and uh and basically doing it in our in our office. I had a very jury-rigged sort of approach for recording myself on my phone and then you know taking it from there. But yes, I'm glad that one went away.

SPEAKER_02 41:25

You know, Amy, I want to drill in a little bit more. You said we did some things. One was the podcast, and I think the name of the first podcast is What in the World Just Happened? Is there so you you kind of touched on a little bit, but how how did you how did we kind of because I was there with you a little bit, but what do you in general? What was what were some of the other things we were kind of trying now that we were kind of handcuffed to our base first?

SPEAKER_00 41:47

I remember the first thing we did is really listen. So we sent all of the team out asking clients, what does this mean to you? What are you doing? How are you still getting work done? What is changing in your environment? And we didn't hear the same thing from all parts of geographies. There were some different, different ways the East Coast was handling things from the West Coast. So we listened and then adapted in the different geographies to ways to reach people and try to work that out. So I just remember we did a lot of listening and asking questions and then adapting to what we heard and how we thought we could reach people easier.

SPEAKER_01 42:16

I think I keenly remember a request for a van that could handle controlled samples. And we were literally speculing that. And about that time it seemed like FedEx and UPS started coming back online, and so we were just about that far away from pulling pulling out.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

Clients didn't know how they were going to get samples from point A to point B because shipping wasn't the same at that point in time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:42

Yeah, and we saw a lot of clients go completely virtual. Is that what then helped us pick up opportunities? Because obviously if they couldn't their business couldn't stall.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

Yeah, I think the challenge actually was though, because clients couldn't get into their facilities, if we needed a reagent or a material, we couldn't get those materials and reagents. So we were trying to be creative just to get the laboratory to still get what they needed to be able to do. If it wasn't a commercially available item, sometimes that was the hardest thing. I remember trying to get things from clients that weren't going into their buildings and couldn't get things out of their freezer to ship to us.

SPEAKER_02 43:15

So it took like two weeks for them to get permission to go into the building and all that. Oh wow, I kind of forgot all that. Um, so nice walk down memory lane here. I I I think um I think it's important to kind of transition into some of the investments that we made and the expansion of our brand. I don't know, John. I can I don't know if you want to recall maybe uh the first mergers and acquisitions and so forth. Any thoughts on how all that I know we're kind of coming out of COVID, but uh I feel like I can't recall. I think COVID was kind of over before we made the first acquisition.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

Is that accurate or was it still at the tail end? Well, we made our first acquisition, uh actually closed on that acquisition in February of twenty twenty two. So COVID was still kind of late there. I think everybody, you know, kind of got Their arms and minds around how to uh deal with it and realized we were going to have to deal with it. And by that point in time, either people had access to the vaccination or Mother Nature was vaccinating people. And I think we realized that uh this was one of the things we could help manage a bit, but we didn't have control. Yeah. And so, you know, life had to continue to move on. So with that, we yeah, 2022 was quite an interesting year. Delivered this building, built another building up in Philadelphia, made the acquisition of a group called Flumetric uh in spring of that year, I guess late winter. Uh, and then also looking into Europe, we also made an acquisition of a group called Active Biomarkers. And all of a sudden we went from, you know, a site in Kansas to all of a sudden having, you know, geographic and technical and reach and capabilities that really just um kind of propelled us into a different scenario very, very quickly. Um, with that said, at that point in time too, is one of the most aggressive years in financing between 21 and so just a lot of demand. So the timing that we were doing things was great. And um, you know, it really challenged the organization to step up and lead uh and then lead other groups that we had acquired. And uh that we learned a lot during that time. I think every organization does. And um, but no, it was it was a lot of fun and um a lot of challenging, a lot of late nights, but that's just par for the course when you've got a a team that's motivated and excited and and and really believed in the brand and where we were headed. Uh was it was a great uh great time. And uh we've done nothing but continue to build every shit.

SPEAKER_02 45:35

So like in like a maybe an 18-month spirit period, we went from a 30,000 square foot facility with one location, a 70,000 square feet in one location, 26,000, and then another 18,000. To think about it, that's it's something to be uh that's in I can't believe I was part of it. That's how I feel. Um, but you know, you John, you kind of touched on something interesting about um unifying a commercial team. So I'm gonna turn to Amy. I I don't know if you I think it's a good good segue to talk about how I feel like we harmonized real fast. Um, you know, I was happy to be part of um some of the technical harmonization. I thought that was really important. Uh maybe in terms of trying to harmonize our uh um uh business development side and commercial side.

SPEAKER_00 46:17

Uh maybe share your thoughts on how that's yeah, I think it's there's different ways you can do it, right? There's you can either integrate everything under under one or you can keep things kind of running on their own. And we chose the integrate and bring everything together, which upfront can take some challenge, but then once done, a lot of accomplishment and and forward momentum. So it's really around making sure we all do things the same. Does the quote look the same that goes to the customer? Do we scope things the the same? Do we think about it the same? And and how do we position ourselves in the market? And what do we tell clients about our value proposition and why they should work with KCAS Bio? So really bringing all the strengths of the different sites that we brought on board together to understand what all our our collective strengths were and what we could do. And I think it really we were stronger together than we were apart. And certainly it wasn't an easy time, but we finally got everything done and just as much work in systems too, with your CRM system, which for us is Salesforce, of course, and using those systems to get all the data in one place. So having everything in in one location made a big step for the team to be able to collaborate better and understand what everyone was doing for the customers.

SPEAKER_02 47:19

Yeah, I think there were two things. One, we really the the middleware. I don't know if you want to touch on that. I think that became a way for us to communicate amongst our sites. And then I was really happy to see us kind of unify with one email address. I thought that was part of the thing that really helped drive because I yeah, I mean, I've been through a few mergers and it always felt like you you made someone feel off-putting if you had a different email address. But I think those were heavy investments that both of you did a lot of heavy lift for. But uh, I think that really set us up for success. And I think I couldn't agree more that it was the right move to go all in on harmonizing us.

SPEAKER_03 47:53

Yeah, having been part of another purchase of a particularly for Leon, a another purchase of another European silkway when I in my prior to coming to KCAS. And ultimately that lab, although they were part of the I won't put that they were part of the group, but they were ignored because company-wide meetings were always scheduled at a time that wouldn't suit them, and and they just they were never really brought into the fold. So the the way the uh viewed basically integrated Lyon was really heartening to watch, actually, after what I what I'd been through in the Netherlands. So that was that was really good.

SPEAKER_02 48:32

We never heard anybody feel like they weren't welcomed as uh exciting times. Um you know, I don't know if any other last comments on that, otherwise we'll go to the next item. Yeah. Um so I think really one of the uh linchpins to our success is we've we've really gone into we touched on our new service lines and new sites, but uh part of John and I as the as the scientific services team here, it's keeping up with new technologies and new drug modalities. So I think for us, we just come back and say, oh hey, these arcs, right? Anyone uh silencing RNA conjugates are great or Oligos, and then all John and maybe Amy saw was like, Oh, what instrumentation do we need? And and so I I think over the last six years, I'm sure we could spend a whole podcast going over that, but maybe I don't know if you want to go over some highlights of just so so I think we always came back with like, hey, these things we need this. Um I feel like we've made it's so blessed to be working here because every time we came back with every, I don't want to call them hare-brained ideas, but we built a business case, we did it as a team, and it really has driven us it to be in the world leaders in any sort of conjugation technologies, Oligo technologies, car T cell technologies, all that led to um, you know, the expansions of PCR, hybrid mass spec. And I won't steal your thunder, I don't know if you want to make a comment on that or even like talk about how we've it how it's kind of played out over the last uh I know we're talking about six years, but I feel like we've really um ramped up our uh technology platforms, um just a number of mass specs, service lines. It's something we're all very proud of. I don't know if there's a question in there for you.

SPEAKER_01 50:13

At least from my my seat on the bus here, um, you know, you're always challenged as a CEO to figure out how you're gonna differentiate. And look, um, you know, within the biological realm, you know, the industry always always drives that. Um it's it's not a secret that, you know, the pipeline was headed more towards biologics, although small molecules was still many of the products that were in the pipeline, it was an area that, you know, looking at the talent we had, we were able to attract and just the tenacity that the team had towards the science, um, you know, at least my perspective was we had to lean into that. We could still do small molecules with the best of them, but that's really where the industry was going to go. And knowing that the biotech markets were going to continue to innovate, and Large Pharma was also somewhere along the way going to challenge that, develop that, start making that commercialization. The goal was to look downstream a few years and make sure that we were positioned for that. Um, I spent many years in the labs today. I wouldn't be able to keep up by no stretch of the imagination, but it wasn't lost on me when I was in the lab that when new neck new technologies come out and you feel like your competitors have them and you don't, you you feel like you're you feel like you're behind or you're not in a competitive position. So that's still in me. And that's one of the things I want the team, as long as we can justify how we're going to use that to make sure that's that's where we landed. And um, you know, it was great to see the company evolve to the point where we're very confident and very comfortable saying our tagline is science accelerated on all fronts, not just the science, which how do you accelerate? Because you're the best science in the world, but if you can't move it down the pipeline, um, or you know, really innovate in the way you run the business as well, then you're really not accelerating much. So we really take that very seriously. And then um, you know, with that, we've built organization around that concept. So uh it's been it's been a good run, and uh, think it's paying off well for us.

SPEAKER_02 52:08

It took 10 years to become an overnight success, right? Only took 10 years.

SPEAKER_01 52:12

Yeah, the old adage takes 15 years. I guess we're ahead of the curve.

SPEAKER_02 52:16

Uh Amy, I don't know if you want to comment on any of just the wonderful growth and you know, whatever sort of business cases, and like, are we doing this type movements? Are we gonna pull the trigger on this?

SPEAKER_00 52:26

Yeah, I think it's another great reason that I love working at KCAS Bio, just to see the investment come online and to see it so fast. I think we're able to be flexible and nimble and do things pretty quickly as fast as we were able to put Site Tech Aurores for spectral flow across three continents and then bring on a brand new technology, a new LISA at our Leon facility. And then, of course, the high-res mass spec that we've brought on and expanded here at the old Lakenham facility. So just seeing how quickly we're able to do that to keep up with the demand and the changes in technology and science has been really heartening.

SPEAKER_02 52:57

And even maybe one little quick note on the PCR side of things. I don't remember we needed to get that Maxwell sister in. We had a new VD director, and they couldn't believe that he just asked for it and within like two months it was here. And he's like, Oh my goodness, you guys do, you know, you you you say you do it, and then we go and do it, right?

SPEAKER_03 53:12

And it helps us as well when we're in coals and we know we don't have a technology, but we we say the client, well, give us an idea of what your need is for this, and then we can take that story back to to use it as justification to introduce in the long term is is is great to know it is.

SPEAKER_01 53:29

Well, for your for your audience, I wanted to know that we take the business cases. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, sure. I was gonna comment.

SPEAKER_03 53:35

You only see about one in ten, by the way. I'm not sure we buy everything, it's like, but it at least we know there's yeah, there's a definite path that if it if it makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

Yeah, we do get asked a lot though, and uh that not all of them make it to the well and and I think one of the the bigger things is everything that has been requested. We've been able to show the ROI and the demonstration, it gets us into a new market, new clients, and you know, at the ultimate end of the day, we have to make money, and uh all those check boxes continue to move forward.

SPEAKER_03 54:06

Okay, yeah, that you actually mentioned the Cytech Aurora and that that was something we wanted to touch on. That we're bringing on board a partner and and global harmonization. How where how what was the route to that? Because that obviously as a small molecule LCMS person, I was in no way associated with it, but where that where did that come from? Because again, that becomes a very positive thing, positive thing for the company.

SPEAKER_00 54:29

Yeah, maybe I'll let John John probably has the best history on why we decided to make that investment.

SPEAKER_01 54:36

Well, again, kind of, you know, just um putting ourselves out there and saying, hey, are we providing the service uh and the offerings and the science and technology to help our clients develop the drugs? Where are they developing the drugs, right? And more and more, as you all of you know, it's going more global in that perspective. So, really with those things in mind, uh when we started thinking about moving up to the spectral flow, uh, we knew that that was going to attract a higher level of clients. Um, uh everything from biotech to large pharma. But at the same time, um, there's in my opinion, you can't just walk out, particularly to someone, particularly in large pharma, and say, hey, we have a one system and we'd love to do all your work now. Oh, if that was that, it's not that easy, huh? And so with those things in mind, I think there's a certain level of competence you have to have about what industry needs so we don't send our commercial team into a suicide mission and you know, actually degrade the brand because the, you know, once you create that impression with a client, then that's where you're at. And so we wanted to make sure our team was enabled and uh ready to go and that we had done our homework. And so we were arguably one of the first labs to be able to say that we've had spectral flow harmonized. And when we mean harmonized, we can put the data on your table to show how we went about that. And that uh that created a little bit of stir in the industry, quite frankly. Uh several competitors have now stepped up and tried to match that. Um, so yeah, it's um again for me kind of going back to being in the labs and sometimes never having to be able to compete when you're a competitive person. Um, I don't want our teams to feel that way. But again, when when you have the tools of the trade, then you're expected to win the game.

SPEAKER_02 56:22

So I I remember it being a little like iterative, right? Like we thought about getting spectral flow in Philadelphia. We had to get two there, and then we needed two spectral flows in Lyon. And at that point, I thought, boy, we're asking for a lot. And then suddenly we kept getting asked about APAC. And that became kind of a like in order to really fulfill really if you're not familiar with like flow-based methods, oftentimes, well, really the challenge is you, you, you, you, you may need to do it stat or day of, right? And that requires that to be in the region where, you know, for traditional PK and ADA stuff, you could just freeze it and send it to us. That wasn't really an option, although you can do PBMCs. But I just remember thinking going back saying, are we really going to get, how are we going to get flows at APAC? And sure enough, I thought it was really creative how we did a partnership. And um, as you kind of mentioned, it is definitely something that differentiates us. Not even though some of our competitors are trying to do it, maybe they do, but I think we still have the most off-the-shelf panels and one of the first to really truly be harmonized. Um, I don't know if it's a good segue to talk about China at all, or is that something in our future?

SPEAKER_01 57:25

Well, I'll briefly say that, you know, it's um if as we continue to grow, uh I would still put us in that mid-market category. Uh, we are obviously a standalone biolytical services organization. But again, with the competitiveness and the great work that the teams have done, the clients always ask for more, right? They trust us more and more with the work they're doing, the products are developing. We're seeing work, you know, when we walk through, you know, a mall or watch on the evening TV, hey, we that's us. We helped do that, right? It's not our name on it, but we know we've helped do that. And and as the clients trust us more and more, you know, they're going to ask for more and more. And uh that's one of the areas that we're looking into heavily and uh have done, have a massive business case prepared for that and uh well on our way. In fact, uh we concluded our board meeting in New York uh last week, and um I'm happy to say we will be expanding into China.

SPEAKER_02 58:20

Wonderful. Excellent.

SPEAKER_01 58:21

Look at that breaking news to the audience, yes.

SPEAKER_03 58:25

Yeah, yes. So that really brings us to our final topic. Um and what what we've obviously we've been talking about the last six years, but you know what what what's where do you see the industry going in the future and what does the future hold for us just from your crystal ball rate right here?

SPEAKER_01 58:42

Oh, I think I think we'd be remiss if we didn't throw out the the two letters right there, AI. Uh you know, I think that's uh that's the thing where everybody's trying to figure it out. From my perspective, uh, you know, you hear everything from nobody'll have a job, everybody's sitting sitting around with the little drinks with the umbrellas in them, or nobody'll have a job, and you know, it'll be the haves and the has nots. You know, I I tend not to buy the hype. The more hype I see, the more turned off I get. Um, but with that in mind, asking companies about what they're doing, it seems like the acceleration or where we're seeing that ourselves included is in areas of the you know greatest opportunity is how do you take the data you're creating and do more with it quicker? If you think about, always go back to the end of the day. What is what is a business's objective, right? Well, you know, first of all, it has to be make money or you can't be in business. But second of all, how do you make the money? Um from my perspective, I think where this could accelerate things is that if we can find more molecules in the pipeline, how does how's a drug company make money? They have to develop that product and get it moving. So I firmly believe it's not going to happen overnight, but I firmly believe uh that the market will only improve. There'll be more products, more viable products in the pipeline. Um, and so I think what we'll see is improved um, you know, um approval rates. I think there'll be less, you know, poor molecules in the pipeline and there'll be better molecules in the pipeline. So I think the industry as a whole and this having this high-risk, high reward type perspective, will be able to moderate some of that risk. So I'm I'm really interested to see because I think we all realize biotech companies um really got their start by high science right up front, um, taking the risk because they didn't have enough pipe, they didn't have enough pipeline backing it. So we gotta we gotta push this through and see if it's gonna make it. Uh, I'm wondering how that dynamic will change over the next five to ten years. I think it's gonna be more of a blending, more of a uh I don't think any of that's gonna go away, but I do think it will be much more of the partnerships we've seen so much acquisition and partnerships between large pharma um and and biotech. I think that will kind of congeal to a more accelerated level. Um, you know, we can produce millions of compounds, right? Think of what China's done here in the last five to ten years. So the question is how do you how do you invest your money and how far on the RD do you take it and have confidence there's going to be a product? So uh AI should be able to help us out with that.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:16

And we've still seen on tap biologies as well. That's one of the things we touch on on a regular basis. There's no new pathways discovered, and then okay, how do you then address that pathway? And so it's another other door opening. So yeah, it's for from our perspective, it's a fascinating field to be part of. For sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:35

I think I think you said it well, it could expand, put more comp more of it, you know, drugs we never thought of could open up a whole slew of areas we didn't think of, and and it does it does hold a lot of promise. I don't think there's too much to be fearful of. Um yeah, uh you know, any other thoughts? I think AI is a really important piece of our future, obviously, or the future of science in general. Um, any thoughts on, you know, I obviously always have thoughts on where I think the field is going, but uh especially like the conjugated space, right? That's a big one. Um I know Amy had talked earlier about the Eliza. I think that's a really um, you know, if you're not familiar with that platform, it can do like 250 biomarkers in a 20 microliter sample and you get results from a plasma sample for like 99 or 95% of the analytes you measure. Um, that that type of data goes in hand in hand with AI, right? Because you're generating all this data, what's it mean? Yeah, and that becomes a big piece of things. And certainly um we talk those types of biomarkers can really help you understand what's working and what's not. And that's still a little bit of a mystery, especially in the neurodegenerative space. I think that's um a market that the new LISA holds a lot of promise for as well as inflammation. But sorry, I kind of asked you a question and then talked. So I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. Yeah, no. Um but any other, do you see any industry trends that you think you want to mention here?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:56

Or yeah, I think the AI piece was a good one on on, I think time is gonna continue to be the the enemy. So getting accelerating and getting things done as as efficient as we can, with good science still, you know, holding the lead there. I think that's always going to be part of what this industry needs and part of what we are challenged to keep up with it and and find ways to make sure we're getting things done as efficiently as we can.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:19

I know there's some for me, I'll just kind of chime in. There's changes in the immunogenicity dynamics as well. If you're there is the lean ADA assay kind of approach for preclinical. There's all sorts of consortiums on uh if you're not familiar with immunogenicity, you need three tiers as part of your clinical trials, uh the screening, confirming, and tatering. There's lots of movement in the industry to kind of reduce that into a single screening, avoiding all you know the intricate intricacies of establishing cut points and just using signal and noise. There's it was really a buzz at WRIB. You can really sense that there's justification for it. Although I I I don't know if it's just because I work at Kit Cash Bio or have a uh somewhat of a conservative approach towards that. I do think it's something that um should probably maybe you can reduce it as you go into clinical trials, but I I don't I don't know if it's right to just come out of the gate. You got to justify it first. So that's some of the areas. I don't know if you had job.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:15

No, yeah. I mean, I I think for from our spec, it's we are our it tends to be more on the platform side of things. And I'm not sure what's coming through to supersede things like the Orbitrap right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:26

It's uh to watch. And that's the oligo space is a huge uh growth area. And then I think in vivo car T cells is gonna be the real future. I kind of touched on that in one of the articles we read. Although I think traditional ontologous CA T cells aren't gonna just go away, uh, but because there's, as John mentioned, there's like 200 clinical trials, but we're we're very fortunate to be ahead of the curve in the in vitro, uh excuse me, the in vivo car T cell space because we support a couple of them today. And so it's great, great technology, really anything that can help make things more affordable and uh help save lives, that's right what we get up for every day to do. Being ahead of the curve, not only in technology and science, we were ahead of the curve in doing a podcast. We were basically the first one to do a podcast, and uh it's been a thrill, it's been a it's been a wonderful ride. Uh, we are coming to the conclusion of our main portion here. So uh I'm gonna give you guys a hot seat question if you're ready. I'll give you an easy one. What's your favorite weekly bioanalysis podcast episode?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:26

Well, there's so many to choose from, and I always look forward to to seeing those and seeing what you what you guys have come up with next. Um, but the one, you know, it's gonna be easy to say, maybe this is a cob-out, but uh the one, the first one I was in, nobody warned me about the hot seat questions. So uh so I started getting these questions and uh felt you know just that hesitation and comfortable. I think, you know, well, what did you think when you first joined KCAS Bio? And how did you feel about the science and technology and all All those aspects, and I'm like, wow, these guys are they're they're taking this very seriously and putting me on the spot. So it wasn't definitely felt felt a little bit of a hot seat there.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:08

Well, we've become softer.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:09

It's now what's your favorite drinks and what's your favorite meals. We've toned it down a little since these guys ought to be sitting across from a jury and uh you know asking questions with lawyers. But no, it's great, it's great to see it evolve. And uh there's not one to me that they all stand out. Uh the topics, you know, sometimes can be from you know, my seat on the bus maybe a little more interesting one way or the other. But obviously, knowing what we're doing here at KCAS Bio, it's great to see the evolution um and and just the complexity that it's involved to now, not not so much complexity. You guys make it look simple and easy, and I know it's not. You guys do a lot of work on this and really appreciate what you gentlemen do.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:46

It can be stressful at times, but it's a lot of fun doing. You always look forward to the whole sequence. Yeah, that's what you wish.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:53

But it's a good thing to throw in.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:54

I want to I actually want to thank you both for allowing us to do this. It's been an honor. Yes, it has been.

unknown 1:06:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:59

All right, you're up.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:00

I don't get off the hot seat. Yeah, I think with a hundred episodes, it's impossible to choose the favorite. I think my favorite thing about the the podcast is the many times I've had the opportunity to be at a national conference, and clients and people walk by and just hearing how impressed and they they love this this podcast, and they tell me their favorite things about it, and they always enjoy the news section. Uh, the the the banter between the two of you, and they've just really enjoyed you. Both have become personalities that they most of our followers enjoy following. They feel like they know you, and maybe a lot of them do, and some of them don't know you as well as we do, but I've enjoyed that and just the number of guests that we've been able to attract over time on different topics that have been eager to come and be part of the episode, and all of our own team that has joined the table at one time or another. So I think there's a lot of great memories, a lot to look back on, and um I'm really proud of where we've come and thank you for what you've done.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:52

Yeah, no, you're very welcome. Honored, like I said, honored to do it. And even as I sit here, I think about those first few podcasts when we were like really struggling with audio and just thinking like, how is this ever gonna real who who would listen to this? And you know, was that W-R-A-B? And you're right, it is a little bit I don't know if I I guess some this might shock. I'm a little shy, like it's almost embarrassing to have someone, but there are people who will come up and be like, there is like a there is like a subtle like little subcult of a following of us at these places, and even have had people want to take pictures and you know, even on prospecting calls, someone will be like, Oh, I uh you know, like it kind of it really is a it it's it's just uh it's flattering and uh humbled to be part of it and looking forward to uh I don't know about another hundred episodes, but certainly many more.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:42

I think we're lucky with Jeremy's help, actually, that we we did that news section right from the beginning. And that that was the way it basically helped us get our heads straight before the main discussion because obviously we're not winging it during the news section. We were in the first in the early days, and it was awful. But once we once we realized this is a structure that makes sense, it became much, much easier to prepare for, and as a result, much more fun to do. And it has been great having the guests on and stuff. That that actually takes the pressure off because as soon as you know got a guest, you get them on a subject they're passionate about, they'll talk different. It's like, but this is great, I don't have to do any work here, I just have to throw in the odd word here and there, and we're we're good. But it it's it's always it has been a lot of fun, and it's been great to have people on to join us.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:31

Yeah, I think NBC might be calling for you know the late late show house uh in the future here, maybe talking about maybe doing something at uh Far 360 maybe this year as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:41

Yeah, very fun. But uh okay, you guys are off the hot seat, and thank you both for uh Joe's special. Thanks for having us. Thanks for having me. Okay, John. Now uh we're gonna do something a little bit different. We're gonna put each other in the hot seat maybe for a little bit here, huh? How's that sound? Um, I'm gonna go first because, well, I'm talking first. Oh, okay. All right, well, why don't you tell us what your favorite podcast was over the last hundred years?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:05

Well, I'm I'm not allowed to say any other than the one my wife appeared on. So we did one on GLP ones, and it was well, it was really nice to have her participate, but it was it was just a really fun one to record.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:18

And and that one got a lot of traction, I think. That was one that people still remember. It was such a hot topic, and it was a thrill to have her on. It was nice to have someone civilized on the podcast. That was the key piece of it, you know. She did bring a sense of intelligence and coordination when she was on. No. Uh how about you, which one would you? So, you know, as I kind of thought about this, I do enjoy most of them, or almost all of them. Uh, what's near and dear to me is always talking about ligand binding assays versus uh hybrid mass specs. So I guess it's I'm gonna give a shout-out to Dawn Dewfield when she was on. We always have nice banter there, and that's uh if you've never seen some of that, you can go find on our website many, many hours of us talking and debating about whether you should do hybrid versus mass spec. And that's one that really sticks out because it's one that's still still kind of ongoing that.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:09

So to counter that, what's your least favorite memory about doing the podcast?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:14

Oh, I think it's on a consistent basis. If you don't know, I struggle with the microphone. So we have these microphones and computers, and for whatever reason, my I don't know what it is. Like I for a little stretch, I seem to be okay, but I still always like I feel like I'm uh I don't know. I think it's just it's a it's a shout-out for me to get a new uh computer from the IT department here. That's all I'm gonna remedy it. And then maybe I'll hit up our producer Jeremy for a bet a newer microphone now that it's six years old. So I'm gonna I'm gonna upgrade my technology and thanks for asking. Yeah, well I'm gonna throw it right back at you.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:46

Is there a so at least I I just the early ones were just horrendous because the it was I never felt prepared. And it was like, well, we're we've got to say something, what are we gonna talk about? And until we started introducing structure to it, but but so a a proper agenda, etc. Then I could relax and and do it, but those are particularly as we're doing them weekly, yeah. I mean it really was it was I Thursday Friday's usually the good bit of the week because that's when you're thinking we're getting to the weekend, we'll go out for some nice drinks, we'll have some good time, but Thursday Friday we're doing this damn weekly podcast. Yeah, it's like no, it's my life sucks, I want to die. I kind of forgot about that. Yeah, yeah. But opening it up to uh a much more occasional thing, and having an agenda just made life much, much better.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:35

Well, it's so funny, even though we felt like they were maybe lower quality and not our best, people really liked them. Because we were kind of because if you remember, we were talking about COVID and some of the latest and greatest, and it became it was certainly internally, there were a lot of people internally who looked forward to it. So putting aside maybe what we thought, because when I listened to it, I was like, Oh my god, I sound terrible. I don't I don't know what's going on. But like there was it was it actually, I think, gave a little boost for me to hear so many of our colleagues say, Hey, you know, my wife and I like listening to this, it settles us down a little bit to hear you talking about it. It was really, and of course, it's evolved into, as you said, a better structure.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:11

Yeah, I mean, I have on that, I did enjoy using it as an opportunity to filter out there was a lot of noise out there. Filter out what was the root true information and then be able because we'd spent some time do it, be able to share it with others. Given our thoughts on it. So that was worthwhile. Yeah, yeah, I I agree.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:30

I even had uh some neighbors who like to listen to it because it had it just gave some people a sense of like we're all gonna be okay. Yep. Um all right, maybe maybe maybe uh what what we got going on this week. You got anything going on this weekend?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:42

This weekend, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you do. I am basically once I finish here, I fly fly home tomorrow. I then pack Wednesday, Thursday I'll p I'll be flying out again. I'm actually going down to Chile to see so the chameleons who have watched who have watched for listened to and watched for years and did a American tour, and none of the dates worked at all. So I'm like, well, I'm not gonna see them this tour, that's fine. And then they announced a Latin American tour, and I thought, okay, that's interesting. And so I had a look at what their Saturday dates were. They did Mexico City this last weekend, and then they they're doing Santiago next weekend. So I'd asked Oh, my wife's name's Catherine, by the way, and her podcast episode was number 92, if I remember correctly. We can check later. Um and so anyway, she couldn't do uh Santiago, wasn't sure about Mexico City, and then said, and then I'm I'm going. I got air miles and I'm going. And so it's a long weekend in Santiago, and I've never been to South America before, but my my dad actually used to, he and my mum used to go to South America quite often because he had like a guest lectureship at Conception University, go there for like a month at a time. Conception's uh, I think south of Santiago. Okay. So they loved Chile, they did like Uruguay, Argentina, Brazil, all over the continent. So this is my first chance to get there.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:05

You are a chameleons groupie for sure with that type of that that's a notch on the belt. That's a whole nother level of fandom that I'm so. Well, uh, you know, even though I have somewhat of an exciting weekend, my son is gonna uh he's going to Japan on uh Saturday uh for three weeks, and that's got us a little, I don't know if nervous is the right word, but we we gotta take care of that. And then I will be on vacation next week. I'm going to Charleston, South Carolina for the week. My wife and I got a nice Airbnb downtown. It's one of those we plan on not there'll be no cars. All we're gonna do is some there's some she's really loves the show sub and charm, and some of the real housewives highlight Charleston. So we're like right in a nice area, tons of shopping. There's some beaches around, so we might make it to the beach a little bit, just a five-night, five, four-day, five-night getaway or something like that. Five days, four nights, but but really excited to take the week off. There'll be no computer or nothing like that for me. So see, even when I do have a fun story to tell, John's got to one up me with going to Peru because that sounds a little bit more adventurous. Yeah, oh sorry, you know that's right, chill. Chili, sorry. I mentioned the wrong South American country. Well, um, that about wraps it up for us. It's been really exciting to do a hundredth episode live here in video. Uh, very uh thrilled to have John and Amy join us. It was an exciting episode, and I don't know if you have any last thoughts, John. No, that's a blast to do it. Um, but I'm looking forward to this weekend, Nora, I have to say. And we really like to thank everybody who listens to the podcast, joined us on the podcast, those of you that had taken a minute to come and say hello at conferences and so forth. We just want to thank the audience for listening, and it's been a pleasure to do a hundred podcasts, and we'll see you in the funny periods.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:44

Yeah, and actually, all our guests we really want to thank everyone up here to actually share their knowledge and and just it their them joining us made a really fun thing to do. And yeah, we've had a had a great hundred episodes. It's looking forward to number 100.