Job | Why Does God Allow Suffering?

What is the main message of the Book of Job?
Why did God allow Job to suffer?
How does the Book of Job address suffering?

In this podcast episode, we discuss the complexity of the Book of Job, focusing on the challenges of interpreting it as both historical and theological. They mention how key biblical figures like Ezekiel and James treat Job as a real person, which complicates attempts to dismiss parts of the story, especially Job's original family and the inclusion of characters like Elihu, whose role seems like a later addition. The hosts express their struggle with fully reconciling these aspects with their faith while emphasizing the Bible's overall reliability.

The hosts then shift to analyzing the storyline of Job, particularly the cosmic courtroom scene where Satan challenges Job’s faithfulness, suggesting that Job only serves God because of the blessings he receives. This test of Job’s faith is framed within the larger biblical theme of suffering and God’s sovereignty, as the hosts point out that suffering is not always a direct punishment from God or a result of sin but part of living in a broken world.

A key takeaway is Job’s endurance and faith through extreme suffering, even when his friends and wife urge him to curse God. The podcast emphasizes that Job’s experience highlights the human struggle to reconcile faith with hardship, and how ancient views of retribution theology are challenged by the story, showing a deeper relational aspect of God that goes beyond simple cause and effect.

The episode also draws parallels between Job’s faithfulness under trial and the failures of Adam and Eve in Genesis, underscoring the unique role of Job as a model of endurance and righteousness. The hosts note that the friends’ increasingly harsh rebukes reflect their own flawed understanding of God, making Job’s steadfastness all the more significant.

In conclusion, the podcast encourages listeners to read the Book of Job and examine their own perspectives on suffering, pointing out that Job teaches believers to trust in God's sovereignty even when they cannot understand His plans. The episode closes with reflections on how Job’s story speaks to modern issues of faith, suffering, and endurance.

#BookOfJob #BiblicalStudy #FaithAndSuffering #ChristianPodcast #SovereigntyOfGod #JobInTheBible #BibleWisdom #TextualCriticism #EnduranceInFaith #ChristianTheology

Transcript

 GWS- Job

GWS- Job

[00:00:00] Hey, everybody. Welcome to God's Whole Story. This year, we are doing a journey through Scripture, book by book. Each week, you will get a deeper dive into one of the books of Scripture so that you can see God's whole story. If you like the content you're receiving, we would love to have you partner with us.

Look in the show notes for a way that you can support us financially so we can continue to provide this content for you. Hope you enjoy this episode. Hey, everyone. This week we are going to take a look at the Book of Job, and that will be quite a, an exciting adventure. There's a number of different perspectives on it, uh, but Ryan and I are here today and we are gonna take a little deep dive.

How you doing Ryan ? I'm doing great. Can't wait to talk about job. Yeah, I mean, there's, there's no difference of opinions on this book. Are there? ? I will tell you. Um, let's see, we, we first did, what was the first year we did God's whole story? But that was, uh, 21, [00:01:00] probably. That sounds right. 20. So in 2021, we recorded God's whole story.

We went through, um, the whole Bible chronologically. You can't really, I guess you can say we covered every chapter, but it wasn't necessarily chapter by chapter, right? So we covered Job like pretty early on, I think, because right, because the chronological Bible would have had it near the beginning. Yeah.

So, so Job is seen as a contemporary of Abraham, meaning he was around at the same time as Abraham. And so chronologically speaking, like you have to cover Job pretty early on. Right. But I remember when we were Combing through this book, chapter by chapter, uh, I made it quite well known that I do not love the book.

And on my worst days, I was probably pretty clear that I didn't believe in the book. I don't know if that's fair to say or not, but, uh, I don't know if I didn't believe in the book. I think I was the resident controversial opinion, which I have definitely softened somewhat in the last two years. I still am hesitant [00:02:00] about Job.

Uh, but I probably wouldn't make the same pointed statements that I would have made a couple of years ago. Yeah. And so just, uh, for those of you that are wondering what in the world is Ryan talking about, like why, why is what's controversial? Um, so there, there is a bit of a debates or even just some different opinions of, uh, basically, is this a real life story and account of a human being who would have been potentially a contemporary of Abraham, which is why It was listed in the early chronology close to Genesis, or is this more of a kind of a an oral story that have been passed down, but with a very poignant scripturally based message that God wanted to get across?

Would you, would you say that's a fair summary, Ryan? I think that's fair. I think there's, I mean, there's also people that would point to this and be like, there's no way this is anywhere near possibly true. And it's not even valuable for. Teaching or understanding who God is or understanding [00:03:00] theology or how God works.

I I think that opinion is probably out of bounds I would agree to just like delegitimize like an entire book of the bible and not even I you know It doesn't even seem like honest. Um, it doesn't even seem like handling the bible honestly Um, so you can't just discount it completely but I I do and this would be some of the controversial opinions I had back when we first recorded going through god's whole story You I resonate somewhat with people that hesitate about this story and see it as like a really, really valuable, uh, story, you know, like, just like, um, the Good Samaritan, right?

Like the Good Samaritan is most likely not a real person. I think that's fair, right? Right. Yeah, that would be a parable for sure. So, um, we're, we can be more confident of that kind of a genre of literature than Job would be. The problem with that is every time the Bible speaks about Job, the Bible [00:04:00] speaks as though Job is a real, authentic person and this story has real, valuable, authentic roots.

And I think that is some of what I kind of. Started wrestling with my own inconsistencies there because like, you know, Probably any other topic that the Bible says, Hey, this is real and authentic. I'm like pretty easily convinced. Yeah, this is a real and authentic. So I think when the Bible says that about Job, there should be some weight added to that.

Right. And so there is a, Ryan's referring to a couple of different references. There's one in Ezekiel that's a reference since three, uh, Righteous people. Uh, it says Noah, Job, and, uh, our version, our English version say Daniel. It might be a, another man from back then called Daniel, but either way, uh, it's referencing Job as a righteous person, which we do see him portrayed that way.

Uh, and then James in the new Testament also uses Job in a real person context. Um, so scripture being [00:05:00] the authority on scripture that, that definitely lends quite a bit of weight there. I think what, what we could probably say for our listeners is, I think, um, there, there are good, uh, Bible believing Christians that have some different opinions on this.

Uh, but it, and it does seem that if, uh, maybe the, the outskirt opinion would be that everything here is completely a myth. Uh, but, uh, but you could kind of be within the bounds of. Orthodox Christianity to say that this is 100 percent real story. Every detail of it's accurate or that there's, you know, this is a story with a message and maybe a few of the details aren't quite.

As accurate, but there is a very accurate message and, and perspective on suffering really, that God is trying to get across to his people. Um, I think either of those would be fair. The thing that has always bothered me and does still continue to bother me about Job is that, that [00:06:00] if you, if you, um, super simplify the story.

It's like God took everything away from Job completely. His, his family, his possessions, his, I mean, even some of his social stature, we see that throughout the book. And because Job persevered, God gave him back an even better family and even better position. Double portion even. Which is like, okay, that's kind of cool for Job, but that's pretty weird for Job's first wife, right?

Yeah. That's a little bit awkward for Job's first kids. Um, I don't have a problem with understanding God's sovereignty and that God is in control of all things, but I think that's historically always been the part of the story that I'm like, really? I don't, I don't know. That's kind of weird. And that's exactly some of the difficulties.

Why, uh, some of these views have come, uh, it's just cause they're, you either reading of this book, there's still some things that are like, Oh, okay, interesting. Um, you know, even, even when we get into the beginning here, there's some interesting [00:07:00] interactions between God and Satan, but I just want to actually take this moment.

I think it'd be great to call out Ryan that, um, what we're able to kind of demonstrate here in Job, uh, over the years is that like, We're both on a continual journey of learning here. And like you've been to seminary, you study the Bible a bunch, read through it multiple times and you're saying, Hey, I'm kind of.

I'm kind of changing my opinion a little bit, and I actually think that's healthy. We're not going to change our opinion about Jesus being Messiah, uh, or, you know, salvation by grace, but on some of these other ones, there, there is some freedom to grow and think and question. And I actually think that's a great example to just call out.

A few of the times went, Hey, we've changed our mind on that. Super embarrassing. If I meet Job and he's like, Hey man, I heard your podcast. Um,

Well, first of all, we'd be like, you're listening to our podcast. Don't you have better things to do? [00:08:00] No, I think, I think Job specifically, um, you know, I, I, I think, yeah, I think the biggest thing for me is I, I do still really struggle. Honestly, I guess I'm being a little bit more open than I'm normally. I'm honestly, I really struggle with that final piece where it's like, yeah, but what about his first family?

This is so weird. Um, but the fact that Ezekiel speaks as though Job is a real person, the fact that James speaks as though Job is a real person, um, it, it just makes it really problematic to be like, nah, I don't, I don't like that part because I, I always want to stay away from like. Okay. Like, like I'm clearly teaching like, Hey, the Bible is God's word.

All of it is useful for teaching. All of it is valuable. All of it's inspired by the Holy spirit. Um, I really don't want to be the guy that's like, yeah, but I don't like this part, so it can't be true. That's like, do you remember, um, Was Job one of the books that, uh, had a few hurdles getting in the canon, um, in, in the Old Testament side of things?

I don't [00:09:00] know about that, but I do know that there's some textual criticism pieces. So textual criticism is like a newer kind of way of handling the Bible. I think like late, early to late 1800s, where we're just like looking at the actual words and how pieced together. Um, there is some pretty strong criticism for Job, um, because even the way the language works, Um, especially after Ella who is added in.

So Ella, who is like the last friend, I think he's probably what, like the last 25 percent of the book, maybe, uh, he speaks differently, uh, than it, than the, than the story flows before him. Um, and when the, when the story sets up these friends early on Ella who is never mentioned. So there's, there's some weird pieces where it's like hey it kind of feels like this elephant piece is a later edition.

And I don't, I don't say that. I like studying stuff like that, but I don't want to introduce stuff like that to be like, you shouldn't believe this because that's not my angle. [00:10:00] Um, there, there just are pieces, especially in like the original manuscripts. So like when we look at archeology and the things that we actually can, can look at and hold in our hands that show that the Bible is true and reliable.

Um, even some of the earliest manuscripts, it actually looks like Job has been from, Um, like played with a little bit and it looks like Ella who has been a later addition. So I don't know. Um, I, I think the thing that has really strengthened my opinion on this book is that Ezekiel speaks with authority, but Job is real.

James speaks with authority that Job is real. So it seems like Job is real at the very least. It seems like Job has been taught as though he were real for a really long time. Um, and those guys would have had information available to them. That's not available to us. So it actually seems like in my, in my previous opinions, now maybe our, maybe our downloads of this early, early job episodes will skyrocket.

Um, in my, in my previous opinions, I was not putting the weight on those kinds of things that I should [00:11:00] have. Well, that was a, Rather large introduction as you, uh, some of the, uh, the conversations surrounding this book. Um, but you know, it's good if you would Google this book, you're going to find all that kind of stuff too.

And far more than we would ever be able to shed light on, but. So why don't we take a little bit of a look at the actual book. We're going to, um, dive into this from the perspective that, you know, this is a real person. This is a story that a message that God wants to convey and just really try to even see what, what we're able to see.

And the book really opens kind of, uh, it's been described in like a courtroom scene, uh, where God is there. And, uh, Satan is allowed to enter and basically, uh, say that Job is serving God because, uh, he's getting all these good things. He's getting blessed and he actually, if those things are taken away, uh, he wouldn't serve God [00:12:00] anymore.

And so it's, it seems like in some ways Job is being put on trial, but really it looks like God is, Um, because, uh, one of the things I noticed is that right away, it tells us that Job is blameless. So he's not doing or serving God for the wrong reasons. Uh, so this little encounter between God and Satan, even that one is, uh, a little, outside of our normal realm of conversation that, uh, it brings up a lot of questions like, does Satan just kind of come and go in the presence of God?

Um, what, what would you, uh, have to say about that little scenario in the beginning of the book here? About this cosmic courtroom? Yes. Um, certainly I think, I don't know, I don't have any problem saying that God is aware of Satan and Satan is aware of God, that doesn't seem controversial at all. I think God is sovereign over all creation.

So I think if, if God chooses to, um, [00:13:00] you know, put us under trials, I think he is. able to do that. Um, there, there are issues with like, uh, what is that in James where it says, don't when, when you're tempted, don't say God is tempting me. Right. Um, I, I don't think this is that scenario. Um, because it's, it's essentially like Satan is saying, Hey, like Job only serves you because he's wealthy and has a good life, you know?

And God saying, no, like Job is serving me because he's a faithful servant. I think certainly that is a criticism that still remains to this day. Right. Like there's. There are still wealthy people that are doing quite well for themselves where, you know, even, you know, most people probably look at that and say, well, I wonder if that guy would still be serving God if he was, you know, Yeah, or, you know, like, so, so it's not like, oh, that's a really outdated opinion.

Like, no, we definitely still wrestle with those kinds of opinions. I think, right. And, and there is, I mean, the whole conversation of suffering is, um, [00:14:00] it's good to kind of take a whole Bible approach on that, that we need to remember, uh, that Satan, there is evil. And so, yes, sometimes Satan, like we see in this book can be the cause of difficulty, but then there there's also just the element of life on a broken.

Planet that's are not functioning the way that they were intended to. And so, um, sometimes we just are experiencing the consequences of a broken planet. Uh, it doesn't necessarily mean all suffering is Satan. It certainly doesn't mean God, uh, has this interaction with Satan when those, when, when all difficult times happen, this just is, is one window into.

Uh, the sovereignty of God. And then sometimes the way that the enemy tries to get people to. Walk away from God. I mean, the goal here is for Job to curse God. Uh, and you know, thinking that if we just take away all these blessings, he's going to walk away from God. I will, I will add to [00:15:00] that, that ultimately we are, we are promised, I guess, and aware that God ultimately will defeat Satan.

Right. And so that from from the beginning of Genesis that the offspring of the woman will crush the the head of the serpent like we are looking forward to a time where Satan does not enjoy this kind of dominion. And so right and yeah like we live in a fallen world and Satan definitely goes about to steal, kill and destroy and that is like I would say obvious in our world today.

Um, but we all, with Job, look forward to a time where Satan has been destroyed and cast into the abyss and bound forever, and we don't have to worry about that stuff in the future. Yeah, definitely. So we, we have the defeat of Satan through the cross and the destruction of evil at the second coming, um, that those are kind of threads that go throughout scripture.

But, uh, basically at the end of the day, God allows Satan to [00:16:00] do this. Um, And says, you know, I, I think my servant job is faithful. And so Satan does do things, end up job ends up losing everything. Uh, and then he gets a number of different messages from some of his friends, uh, that summary of pretty much their messages, job, it's gotta be your fault.

Uh, this is, this is retribution. This is cause and effect. Um, which. God has already said that Job is blameless. Uh, and even, even in the story, his wife, uh, says curse God and die. Um, so the messages that Job is getting from his friends are not really the advice you want to get from your friends. Uh, they, they're having a different wrong perspective.

Um, and we just have this, uh, very, Elaborate dialogue that happens to be to Job and his friends kind of back and forth, uh, and Job does prove himself faithful. Uh, he does not curse God and, uh, then, uh, Ryan's [00:17:00] alluded to it a little bit. The, the end of the story is that, um, these tests fail basically, uh, and the things that have been removed from Job are restored to him.

Um, so I read something interesting about it that I thought. Um, was an interesting parallel that like, here's an account of a human passing the test of difficulty, suffering, temptation, and kind of, uh, the stark reminder to us is Adam Neve, who did not pass the test, uh, that when they had the opportunity to take something, uh, they, they didn't pass this.

Uh, so there is. Job is upheld in scripture as a example of righteousness, faithfulness, endurance, um, all of those character traits that can be emulated, uh, but it definitely is a very long winding journey to, to kind of get to that point. I will add that the, um, the, like the friends kind of speak in stanzas, right?

Like they, They kind of [00:18:00] take turns and there's like these lengthy diatribes. They go on and they kind of filter through one, two, three and one, two, three, um, they become more and more confrontational as they go and they become more and more. Um, like, like, I would say like deeply painful in the things that they say as they go.

So not only do we see Job suffering under all of these things that have happened to him, we also see him suffering under these friends who are less and less compassionate toward his situation as we move forward in the story. And it kind of almost makes you wonder like, you know, what was the faith of the friends,

Conversation with job where they strengthen their own faith or were they actually weakening their own faith. Um, I kind of think that they were making the case, uh, worse for themselves in some ways. It's definitely interesting to, like, look at all the characters [00:19:00] in the story and I guess we should have said right up front like it's worth reading through this thing chapter by chapter, you really should do it like just read the book.

But it's interesting as you read the book to say okay like. What is Job's image of God? How does Job see God? And then how do these friends see God? How does Elihu see God? How does Bildad see God? Um, because I, I think that's where we can start to identify with some of these characters, but then also see some of the faults in our own theology as we look at these characters and who we identify with.

I think it's probably a worthwhile exercise. And I think it's probably safe to say that the friends would represent kind of more the ancient Near Eastern cultural view of how gods interact with humans. Very cause and effect, very if you do good things and please them, they might be nice to you. If you don't, well, that's why bad things happen.

Whereas there is an element here that this, this God, the God of Israel is being [00:20:00] shown in a different way that he is. He is not a cause and effect. God. Um, he, he is actually wanting relationship with people. He's wanting interaction. Uh, even one of the coolest parts I think is towards the end when God's helping job, uh, through this journey, he just kind of reminds him like, Hey, did you create all of this?

Um, like I'm actually, All powerful, but I'm also a good God. I don't just dish out punishment because you were bad or, uh, actually, I mean, the message of scripture is that God gives us things we don't deserve, not what we do. Uh, and so you, you see almost some gospel like traits in this book as well, which are pretty cool.

I'll tell you what that, and, and that is a, still an issue today. Like it, it's very easy. I'm sure I fall into it by accident all the time. Assuming that like, Hey God, like I'm serving you. Like you should make my life [00:21:00] easier. Yeah. Like I'm doing what I can for you, man. Like help me out here. And that's just, we feel a little entitled.

That's just not how it works. And, and a lot of the, a lot of people on the earth that are, are really doing some significant kingdom building gospel work that they're actually living incredibly difficult lives. Um, I just think about a guy, this, I guess it's a little bit of a sidetrack, but I had lunch with a guy last week.

Um, that is, uh, he's. He was studying to be a Muslim imam in Syria, and God did a lot in his life over the last 10 years. And now he's leading like a Christian missions agency in Syria, and like he struggles a lot all the time. And actually, when, when he was, when he was speaking to me, it was like, it was like he's He's only come to the States a couple of times.

So he's still kind of processing like the life we live and the life he lives. And he was saying like, Hey, I really struggle with, you know, like the relative ease [00:22:00] that you guys are living in when I'm like, you know, like under death threats all the time. And it was just interesting for me to be like, wow, like I, I'm kind of frustrated that I had a tough week and I think God should give me a nicer week.

And this guy's like, yeah, like I risked my life for Jesus every day. Like what? Why aren't you, which is points and obviously like, like everybody lives different lives, right? Isn't our perspective on suffering so shaped by the context we're in that we do live a life of relative ease, prosperity, privilege, uh, and suffering is like, wait, what?

I must've done something wrong. Like, how is this happening? Whereas for much of the world, it's like, well, of course, like, this is just, this is life. Yeah. This, this guy's angle, like his, his life verse is where Jesus says, like, pick up your cross and follow means like, Hey. Taking up your cross is dangerous.

denying yourself is difficult. That's intense. I may, [00:23:00] I may have shared this, uh, on the, another episode of the podcast because I, I go to this well a lot, but, uh, I remember my African friends when I served in Africa taught me that they wouldn't pray for the removal of suffering. They would pray for the endurance to go through it because It was expected.

Um, I, I was so convicted cause I'm like, Oh man, every time something even slightly uncomfortable happens, I'm like, take it away, God. I'll tell you what. And I'm like, I'm leading, I'm reading through the letters from Paul right now. And that's how his letters read like persevere in door. So you're that's great.

Like, yeah, I like what you're saying. Yeah. Wow. Well, that's, uh, that's a little bit on job that maybe we ended up in a bit of a different place than maybe we thought as we were starting that. But, uh, Yeah. So do, do like Ryan said, um, I mean, we just did a, a very broad overview of this book. Uh, definitely if you want a little bit of help to kind of go through the book of Job as a whole, go back to our first [00:24:00] season of podcasts with the daily podcast.

You can listen to some of Ryan's thoughts, probably on episode one of Job, uh, probably the first couple of chapters and yeah, just kind of go through it and see, see what, what you think. God shows you about himself and kind of our perspective on life on a broken planet. Chris, give me like your, your uh, one or two sentence like big picture take away from Job.

I know you, I know you've been saying it throughout, but like what's the point of like, what do we get out of Job anyway? I think, I really think that Job is, it is a part of wisdom literature. And I think part of the reason why we have this is because this is an area of life that we need some input on.

And so Job gives us a perspective on suffering. It gives us a, an attitude to have during it's that even, even though sometimes Job does complain to God, like he still stays faithful, he endures. So I really, I think at the end of the day, it's a, it's about us enduring through suffering. And how to keep our eyes on God during [00:25:00] that, even when.

Bad things happen sometimes. I'm always astounded that after Job goes through this like wild, like, like, I feel like the whole book, if it's like a play or something, like you're looking forward to the time when God finally speaks. And what's wild to me is that God doesn't run up to Job and like give him a big hug and tell him everything's going to be okay.

You know what I mean? Like, like he, like God speaks with power and with authority and is essentially like, Hey man, I'm in control. Um, which is, I think, comforting. It is that's that's the safety net, but doesn't always feel that way. I suppose, right, not necessarily an emotional safety net but it's the at the end of the day, they got us in control.

And this, he's going to utilize this. I mean, that's some New Testament promises that we see that God cause everything, but he will use it, [00:26:00] uh, to work good in our life. Sometimes good character from things that we may have tried to pray away. That's wild. Alright, well, hey everybody, I hope you've enjoyed this conversation about Job and we will see you next week.

Bye bye. See ya.