We are not heroes.
Speaker 2Nor are we. Neither Chambers nor magicians.
Speaker 3But we can tell you their stories. We. Are.
Speaker 1Welcome. How may you were listening to lure keepers a of rebuilding podcast where we talk about aliens and history heroes and villains and the forces that we're all about it all. I'm Carter and I'm Frenk whether you're interested in stories looking for inspiration in your own worldbuilding or perhaps you want to participate.
Speaker 4We've got something for you this week we're talking about the primordial. But first Frank how are you.
Speaker 5Doing OK. It's been a it's been a busy week I've been getting ready for the for the long weekend away trying to get my affairs in order. Roommate and I have recently started a new process of basically perpetually keeping our apartment clean. But aside from that I don't know. It's just been kind of warm here. Lazy Last Days of Summer.
Speaker 4Yeah. It's like 92 degrees every day. Sucks.
Speaker 5Yeah 92. Yeah totally. And also humid for sure. Yeah we get that Aha.
Speaker 4You know I can't like I wore a long long sleeved linen shirt and linen pants and I'm just like fucking I immediately sweating.
Speaker 6I said What for. And I'm like This is unnatural. Re getting baptized why did you have that on Leonard.
Speaker 4Because I. Because I like to dress nice to present to good health and enjoy myself to my peers.
Speaker 5You care about yourself. I see how it was giving a presentation. Oh nice. Yeah. Well I suppose I can excuse you for that but only if you tell me what you what you've been up to and how you doing.
Speaker 4I'm doing very well. You know French is stressful as usual. Good to do that old language thing just the French people in general.
Speaker 5Oh the language.
Speaker 4Yeah not an exact science. Yeah French philosophy is good. It took me a while. When you say good French What. Oh nothing. All right. Nothing important.
Speaker 5Yeah. Hey a little side note before we get into the dank Nux today. I wanted to just thank the community for their submissions for their response and discussion. We've been we've been dropping posts on our slash worldbuilding on Reddit and there has been some really cool responses we sent something out about arcane engines and how they would work went after after talking about the cyberpunk episode and got some really interesting ideas and some very inspiring stuff that we might talk about in the near future and in general you know just kind of trying to figure out a system because we want to we want to ask the community about your ideas and then post them on the episode. We're just kind of figuring out a structure for how to do that. Yeah. Thanks for thanks for your responses. Look forward to those to those posts every week and join the discussion. We always try to follow up an episode with a little bit of some sort of seed seed so your seed frame Jesus Carter.
Speaker 7SEE WHAT THE FUCK DID IT YOU DID. If I can. You did indeed.
Speaker 5Yes you said the if you ever heard the term a conversation. Not everything is sexual. See the conversation. What about seed in a field. Seeds like.
Speaker 8So you Sofield seed a field. Yeah what do you so a field with burlap. Vague Arutz are also Carter is everything after hours a self this time everything is sexual either way because human humans are very sexual beings.
Speaker 5This is this is a deep philosophy you can look forward to a thesis on this as a grab paper from our own Mr. Carter.
Speaker 8So they literally taking a class that is entitled Plato's erotic dialogue. Are you serious. Yes. So this is coming from somewhere you're not just making this. Oh sorry I said the word coming I'm sure now. Now you've gotten very distracted again.
Speaker 4Yes. But yeah it's it kind of focuses on around Plato's talk of arrows which is Greek for love. It covers all the kind of ways we think about love and the three dialogues that we're going to cover or the symposium the feijoas and the Republic which is my favorite Platonic dialogue.
Speaker 5Yeah not know what any of that meant I weren't teenagers. Wait a minute it's feijoas. The thing we talked about last week with the police is a gang sisters. Oh that's not that's not like fatalis.
Speaker 4That's not now. Okay the fates worry. That's what they call them. You know what they have like a fancy at the moat.
Speaker 5More and more. Yeah I didn't even get close.
Speaker 4No feijoas is just like super eager guy that loves reading speeches about love that goes whew toward on for Socrates.
Speaker 8Yeah. No idea what that's about. Read the Vegas they're super flirty.
Speaker 5Oh okay well if you got any recommended reading for the year for the dear listener every one should read the republic.
Speaker 4Plato's Republic. Oh this is just one of the public ones here. Wow. The Phaedrus is not a dialogue. It's fine. There's no problem with the. It's better. It was also much longer.
Speaker 9Yes danc case yeah. You go first this time. I did. I thank him for something but OK. Well.
Speaker 4I was thinking that hashtag shower thought because of course. Sure. Already had shared thoughts about wizards. Everyone goes back to everyone. Oh shit has a bunch of fucking names. Right. So it may not be any different. Therefore I think you gave him more names than just a primal Aevum Secundus or whatever we call them. Therefore I've got some I got some names for a ready. Yeah okay. The first Avrum primer. Shit I think something like like Aevum Meatloaf's. Like the mythical eve eve right. Or we could go with it. The kind of golden thing you've been doing. Okay. Yeah. And then get some others. I mean obviously we can just go with like the Ascaris is kind of shorthand for Aevum for the second Aevum is not.
Speaker 5Not exactly. Remember Eidelman not in that and how Ohmae in-between each age there is typically the transition years are not an instantaneous end of one timeline and another it's typically a series of events that happens in the transition that are signing on or on something years yes.
Speaker 8It's called The Ascaris but I think a lot of people just kind of loans the second H with the curse. I think a lot of people you mean you I think calling for that aren't properly educated like the scholars will do that. Right.
Speaker 10Yeah I mean that's a very reasonable thing to say. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 4Yeah. So that can be the Avrum. Umbra. Or if we're going to let her like basically just you darkness AGM for eight curses maybe an age of light.
Speaker 5I don't know because it wasn't the shadows were sharper and darker back then but there was actually kind of the number one marked thing was the fact that the sun was unyielding every day.
Speaker 4It's true. People are really out in the sun right.
Speaker 5Troops I suppose. I suppose that's true. Fair amount of peoples were definitely trying to hide away.
Speaker 4So I mean that's an idea. You know this is all provincial will implement better ones. But you know this is to get to thinking. The third age right. Aevum. Tertius. I'm thinking this is like you know all right. This is our age of heroes. This is the greatest time. Besides I'm proud of the mythical times when the gods ruled around with. So I'm thinkin right. You know we make up some fancy word that kind of sounds like hero. But it isn't exactly like you know highroad Kuis or something like this. Well and so so Carter you're actually kind of touching on something.
Speaker 5It's so funny because I was actually thinking about this this morning. Was that your shower. No it was after a shower. It was a post shower. I was thinking about the fact that our approach to Halamka and the creation of how may one of the things that I had in mind was the value of creating all these different areas to capture the different senses of fantasy that exist. Like so you know you get Conan the Barbarian and Aevum secuity you get Aevum primer you get Atlantis and you know even Tertius you have like age heroes like you're saying like mythic you know superpowered you know almost anime level you like like people with absurd abilities and things that you know get tales told of them. Avrum Courtis you get cold war slash. World War 1 and a lush fall of Rome. Yes last fall of Rome. They sort of a few different things but it's all about conflicts and wars. Aevum you know Quintus is all all about commerce in the modernization and how does magic work with that. And one of the things that I actually was thinking about bring to the table I guess I'm going to have to pivot though for our my Denki nug was the fact that like we haven't really been thinking about the way how do you talk. You know talking differently the naming should be different the styles of feel that no one should be greedy the other should be sort of mythical and unreal and others should be sort of almost like a haunting. There's there's different approaches to each one. I don't know drawing the lines between those two or all of those different ages I feel like would would really help them be fleshed out and become their own thing. Yes. So I like the idea of coming up with these names. Yeah.
Speaker 4So if you allow me to finish I've got a couple more things are saying OK yeah you came up with the names are all these.
Speaker 8Yes. I'm actually kind of like on the spot. I know for a few of them. OK. Because you know. I had some. Hey that's how I do it. That's what we do.
Speaker 4A court is totally like the age of Imperium right. Because it's right these giant empire spans the entire world.
Speaker 5It's true the that's not the LDM Imperia that's the imperial was the thing is right first regurgitation or his read RE5. Yeah that would have been Aevum quarters. What am I thinking of that was during him Securitas the shroud of empire is a different empire was Corden's. Now the number was Aevum second to was Scicluna. Oh yeah because of piracy. No you're right you're right. Imperial was sort of like the second Reich you know it was the attempt to bring back and unite elves under a new banner.
Speaker 4Bring back the empire of the leader Rake's. What I'm saying and they react far is Hitler.
Speaker 5Well I mean he's I'm just saying it's the second time that try to do this. I don't know. No it's not. Yes. I don't think that there's Holocaust level shit that rock our gave it came up to. But like he's said We never into that character and at worst a pretty pretty dark creature.
Speaker 4He's a dork he's a he's an anti-hero. C'mon.
Speaker 5I don't know if we've ever built him out to be an anti-hero.
Speaker 8I feel like he is an ant here. We'll have to flex your mouth. Hey I. All right your head canon your your dude your head canon. Exactly. My head canon is canon. Maybe you should bring that next time. Hell we could do a whole episode about or perhaps is this is the fabled rock far episode. I don't know if I'm ready for that. I don't know. Maybe you've got to get yourself ready for next time. But in any case straight cash I don't know that that is the defining characteristic that either in your court for the fourth age even Quint's conflicts.
Speaker 5It's all about destruction of empires and conflict. The world is not as bright as it once was and this is not the time of Gods anymore. This is the time of man or the knowing and they know what it's like don't know how to rule their own world. There really are. There's just tons of strife.
Speaker 4Maybe it's like even Faris and like the oh yeah.
Speaker 6Yeah I know. Yeah something sound. Ooh that's good the age of I heard that song and then I'm thinking of them Quintus.
Speaker 4It's like the age of the scale age or the scale.
Speaker 11Yeah dude hell yeah. Commerce. Come on that's what I'm talking about your name Lamees.
Speaker 4And lastly just to add a little touch that little that little artistic kiss came to the Abram's. Yeah I imagine that right. But you've got Anthony. Even prime the golden hour right. Yeah. The way I see it is that to be a person in the golden hour is for everything to be right. Shiny beautiful amazing everything is as gold right. Gold just idle doesn't need polishing. To some extent. Sure. Yeah right. And then show everything there is vibrant beautiful you know everything is incredible. Then we go to the second page. You know everything is kind of sapped of color right. So we go from the most vibrant to the most like just boring of colors everything darker everything is bland. Right. We have this kind of feeling of honor. We as the French would say. All right then we go to Tertius where everything in contrast to the previous age right things pop again. The crash has had vibrant shade of green again. Right.
Speaker 5Yeah. Where are you going. Who is going to wrap up like. Like think nuggs it's already 15 member.
Speaker 4I'm Robin. Anyone who would see who had seen the golden hour and see this as a pale imitation. But sure it's so much more than it would have the previous was. Yeah. For threats yeah I'll cut it short that. Basically what I'm saying is that CEG even as being right visually so incredibly different I think for me helps divide them as someone who can to write has an eye through all events right because most people see one. And so I think that imagining it in this is like visually very strong ways very very interesting to me.
Speaker 5Yeah well I mean I even was just thinking here is one you know here's one implementation. A lot of the things you're talking about materials could align them with a dwarven way of thinking. The first age is the age of gold. Second age age of stone. Because there is no gold there's no metal to be found it is a life of hardship and dust. Or the third age is the age of Crystal because it is it is beyond you know the normal supernormal for age age of iron age age of brown bronze because of course the dwarfs would be proud of the bronze hills for bringing about you know if they age or as they see it the commercialization of the Fifth Age.
Speaker 4So they go maybe even each culture has its own kind of schema for understanding the different Abram's.
Speaker 5Yeah I'm sure that there is a lot we definitely want to flesh this one out for sure.
Speaker 4It's a boom Aigo. I'm sorry for overtaking your nag.
Speaker 5No no it's fine. Honestly I didn't really have anything that significant anyways. There was a couple of things bouncing through my head but when you started talking about this stuff is just it. It was just better than anything I had to bring up.
Speaker 8Maybe stick more showers. I suppose so. FRANK Yeah. We're talking about the primordial. Yeah they were jumping into it aren't we.
Speaker 4Is it like where you know that Prime a gang lord Primelife.
Speaker 12No no no no I have no idea what that is now.
Speaker 5All right. All right you want me to break down the primordial for you and the good folks.
Speaker 6All right. And I can say a little bit and then you can be like no quarter you're wrong it's this. We started out with that. I was like correcting you. I mean and I like being corrected.
Speaker 4It gets me out. All right. So before in the beginning there was the one asking for it before we had Siddhar and other planets like it. There was kind of a massive bunch of stuff. We got that kind of other places called the primordial chaos we called the primordial. But the interesting thing about the primordial right is a mess of a bunch of elements that are stone the water would have to say air. Right. The interesting thing about it is it is still around. Right. Yeah. Yeah a lot of it's gone because as you make other stuff. But it's still there. And Frank where exactly is it on our planet on our planet plan our escape map cosmology.
Speaker 5See now you've walked right in my trip. So viewer now there are no viewers. I am not a viewer of this podcast listener so so proprietor according Curta and I had talked about what we wanted to bring up and I had had in my mind. I wanted to talk about the primordial and this is kind of the exact reason why. So what Carter is talking about is the fact that at the very beginning before the creation of. Yap before the material before there was time there was just the theory the heavens the place where only the creator God resided with all the lesser gods that they created the the the regents who rule each of the nine animists and the flow. And that was pretty much it. So all things that were that were extant that were in being were spiritual by nature then own was like let's do something else let's try something else. They create them in the primordial. So this is a plane of pure material nature. It is just the physical and it was let's we'll put a pin in this for the moment but for that moment we'll say it's the four elements right. Earth air water fire as you would find in plenty of other world building situations. So then from there the the idea is that the material itself was created as sort of a conclusion between those two realms. So fusing the physical and the spiritual to create the land of the material which which is where creatures with both souls and bodies exist. And this is little side note if you want to go back and check out some of our earlier episodes. This is also the thing that brings about the ash curse because the Nameless One was so jealous of. The idea. First of all thinking that Owen had abandoned them by creating a material realm in the first place and then creating abominations by bringing the spirit and the physical together thought this cannot be. I must stop it. And so they tried to destroy it like quote unquote for you know for the good of all within the in theory him and know cursed the material realm. So in summation the primordia him really does exist it exists on a different plane though. It's a place that is still around it's just not in like the same place that you'd find you know the things at the beginning of yeah.
Speaker 9GRAHAM Well let's paint a little picture right. Yeah.
Speaker 4So imagine at the edge of the broadcast right that crazy looking thing that this year were made with tools. Right. And to top it we've got when we will so you at the top it.
Speaker 11Oh my gosh we've never really talked about this. This is the cosmological picture of Halime.
Speaker 5This is the thing that gathers and reflects honestly it is a it is a reductive image because it really just represents the benevolent and malevolent. You've got the Ethereum up top with Nine Divine spheres below you have the seven thorns of chaos in the absence of them were I guess this. Yeah or just the seventh Orens of the hells or something because I guess not all of them are chaotic but yeah. And then you've got Saddar in the middle sort of caught in between in a realm of both light and dark and foreign above you have that sort of weak shadowy light that is supposed to represent oen who looks down on all of creation. Yeah the thing is is that within that picture there is no image of where Alluvium is where coolness is where the primordia as well. We also have locus and tortas Somnus there are several other planes that are not revealed in this image.
Speaker 4I mean Lucas is basically like you know it's an overlay on when I smell it.
Speaker 5It's the it's the plane that touches all other planes it is the borderlands plane yeah. Oh it's the astral thing. Yeah yeah well. So the astral see I suppose you could call it that. But the thing is is that becomes a little confusing when we talk about the arcane see because the arcane see is basically the interplanetary media space. And so when people talk about the arcane see what they really mean is you know beyond the firmament where the sky grows dark. When people talk about you know you know so I suppose people could use the term arcane see but that might make it a little more complicated.
Speaker 4So it's not that different.
Speaker 5No. And it definitely has to do with the it's analog would be the astral plane in DMD but it operates somewhat differently than that.
Speaker 4OK but let's get back to the primordial. Right. If you were to add it into the picture where you put it this is something that I've thought about many times.
Speaker 5It's something that I thought about in drawing diagram after diagram of trying to understand how to do this and I think without three dimensional sketching I don't know if I'd be able to do it. I think that by reducing the picture into a much more simplistic imagery I think I could capture it but it lies at easy access to all this stuff. So in a sense you know if if X and Y are the breadth and the of the theory in absentia them and they're the difference between the above and the below then the primordial would be coming out towards us in the image and out of the page.
Speaker 4I always thought of it as kind of like imagine a star in the middle and then you go to kind of spiritual plains modum or coldness to the left and to the right of center. I always imagined that like the primordial kind of is like an elliptical around Saddar or Cronus view separating the spiritual from the physical. Yeah.
Speaker 5See I don't see that. And I think there's a reason why because it's just entirely other. There is no good or evil in the primordial creatures just behave according to their own compass. It is like an animal. Could you look at I suppose some of the behavior that you see in a predator or prey could be seen as good or evil but they are simply doing what they are designed to do in the same way the things that exist within the primordial which we haven't even talked about yet but things that are of elemental nature. Yeah things that possess what's called an enema which is sort of an animating spirit.
Speaker 4No they don't. There's other things that have a..
Speaker 5Good point. Because it's not an end it's not a spirit. But it is an animating nature that gives them an awareness and sort of almost. It's almost more like akin to a series of commands that you give a computer program.
Speaker 4I would say if forgive me for going a little bit Asian here a bit racist is my key. Do you mean. Life is different than key differences in Chinese Japanese Japanese cheese is Chinese.
Speaker 5Gotcha. Yeah. Yes it is. It is the animistic like it's the energy of life. Yes it is the energy of life infused into things. And so here's here's actually where I think the conversation is. It's great to be in it because I have spent in all of the worldbuilding that I did I basically threw the primordial in there as an aside it initially started as just saying oh I'm just going to rename the thing the D.A. has already created. But in the coming years since I first started creating the world of how may I have just left it in the dust and haven't really considered it mostly because I think for campaigns and things it was hard for me to imagine using it to narrative strength because it's hard for me to connect with that or conceptualize it especially in the way that I've made it where it's. It's either you know for instance or other cities in the primordial probably what are they like if a creature doesn't have a soul and they just kind of do as they're quote unquote programmed. Let's say the programming is an extremely complicated level you could argue that our brains are just nothing but chemical programming then you know do they operate distinct or indistinct and if not are you just throwing some elemental flavor on an otherwise just an interesting city. Because I don't think that that's enough I don't think that gives it that natural keystroke that makes Helma different from other worlds.
Speaker 3Frank we know that some things that women do exhibit some sort of reasoning during the AMA. Hadra No that's a good point. Things of the living creatures like orcs Dorough Durak are goblins.
Speaker 5They all do not. They do not have souls. They have anima and it's actually as a result of packs that they made with beings which I suppose honestly those packs could have actually been with gin or something they didn't necessarily have to be you know demons or devils but come on their drow. Yeah. I mean they are pretty monstrous creatures they are pretty horrible.
Speaker 3Their souls are like stolen from you know but who knows what are like them terrorists. Well that's the thing they don't even have souls. They literally are soulless. Yeah and I mean them but they got some sort of soul thing right to give reason. That's the anima. So the AMA does everything.
Speaker 5I suppose that's a good point. I suppose it does. I think I think it is because what's funny is is that I have actually needed to focus on the Durak are the dark dwarves which oh by the way when we say drought. For those who aren't familiar with DMD terminology drought or of the Dark Elves so you've got dark elves dark dark dwarves you've got a couple other sort of dark versions of races but they all exist within the subterranean spaces of haloumi far want to go down there. Yeah far beneath the surface it's a place where magic doesn't reach and so as a result creatures without a soul or without a soul find it almost. I don't know if appealing it at least appeases their senses whereas unless you're irritating. Whereas a creature with a soul will feel it start to drain away from their body and they might eventually go insane or just consumed nothing special hazmat suit. Yeah basically if you go down there you need to have some sort of lifeline to the surface or you start to go crazy. So. Okay so this is Nova. This is a good point because when we source it back to the primordial those creatures clearly had some sort of programming. So I mean I guess that just means that their place is. Yeah they also have cities.
Speaker 3I mean think of it like this right. You had the kind of mindless animated creatures like crazed big run monster with water elementals. Those guys.
Speaker 4But then you have the gene. The others want to try there. All right forget the names the gender the Arijit Jeannie's. Then you've got the final Jeannie's or think Jin is a word that can be described for any of them right. I mean this is really user friendly everyone's okay.
Speaker 5DJI and I mean is that in in its common culture. Oh that's okay.
Speaker 4I don't know what kind of culture. Don't quote me on culture. Yeah I don't like the monster manual. Are you sure. When I was but in any case. Yeah. Cost of living is so these features rate are very powerful. They possess magic.
Speaker 5Some of them I mean they would make cities if anyone would trip think Well let's explore the space is basically what I'm thinking is here's here's a pitch. Maybe they're more driven by a one one nature. They instead of. I mean first of all they don't have any associations with the nine flow which for the new listener is just that is where magic is sourced from. But it specifically manifests as sort of a motive affectations. So a person who has a certain ideal you know wisdom or creativity or whatnot. So they don't have anything to do with the abstraction of a 9 flow. So I think what drives them is more rudimentary more primal than that. Eating sleeping. Our safety protection. You know I think that would structure if you know are there family units and if so do they. Do they operate differently as a result then that puts us in a difficult position.
Speaker 4Do we want to say that all these people are kind of driven by these like their base impulses and don't have the you know the reason and the you know nice stuff the moral stuff that comes with having a soul.
Speaker 5I would say so. I mean I think the thing is is like that's the whole point is that they're not good but neither are they evil because they simply have no morality. There they are no more sinful than a hungry dog or a terrified hedgehog like that's not you know you can't apply that sense of morality to a creature that is simply doing what it is made to do.
Speaker 4OK so in the world of helmet then in the universe of them they are genies are all true neutral or Laufman or chaotic neutral.
Speaker 5It is a good point of clarification. I would say it is not that are without. I will say this. No I do not think that they are true neutral. I think that their alignments if we are going by sort of the alignment across stick they might be anywhere on that but they might be anywhere on that differently depending on who you ask because that stuff is really it's not just it is not only applicable to creatures with a soul but only creatures with a soul. Actually look at that and make any meaning of it. OK so you know you can look at you know the forces of a giant sinister being far beyond your conceptions and say this is an evil creature but for them they might just be doing something because they're focused on fulfilling their own desires. You know it's it's the it's that's shitty quote from mannikin you know who motorsport Duvel that you are evil.
Speaker 8Not bring print codenames into this. So I think I was rude.
Speaker 5No but this is a good life because that's the thing is is if you commit to that it's a pretty big statement. But I feel like I want to start making more hard pushes with the way that not everything needs to be in perfect balance and I want to say that I mean because you could always argue perhaps things were a certain way at one time but I even envision that this is sort of like the blackbox testing grounds that own is trying out the first idea of impulse or or driven nature you know something as a as a fixation beyond an ideal thing that says I am defined by accomplishing X or becoming X or being known as you know Z that there's something that defines the creatures that own as desiring to make. But it's not just you know the abstracts. It's completely cut loose from that. And as a result there's almost no to you know primal beings that are of the same type but their passions are consuming. I think this or maybe that's a question mark. Are there patterns of consuming or their passage consuming themselves like like all consuming like they're fixated on it to the exclusion of all other things if they seek out. You know let's put it let's put it this way in metaphysical terms. Are they all. I mean there would be psychological terms. You're right.
Speaker 4In psychological terms I think that would make for kind of boring characters. So I want to say no.
Speaker 5And so here's here's kind of the thing. Maybe this is my pitch you can get away with boring characters as long as something about that environment is engaging. You know you don't watch every TV show because it's got create great character drama. There certainly shows where you do that. But some of them are just for the ideas with the action or the you know the draw for the primordial would be different than that. But I've got a burning question. Go for it. So I actually have a lot but I'm not star I know what I mean that's a thing. This is pretty unpolished.
Speaker 4This is the hardest the hardest thing I've got your editing Ger Arjin is magical. OK. Interesting because they are. They need either some connection to 9 or some way to get magic somewhere else and I can throw you a lifeline for that one if you need one because I've got an idea.
Speaker 5All this and then I want to hear your idea go where the drought are obsessed with magic the euro God forbid it and their societies they say it is a sign of the rare the liars the deceivers from above. And there's actually many different cultures who fear it. But the drought are fanatics. They are obsessed with it. They can create. They have figured out ways to create and cast magic by burning and Emma and Adam and burning faith. Basically what they'll do is they'll sacrifice a creature typically a living creature and use up its life force. It's the key. You know it's Anema. In the process being able to store that or use it as a magic spell. So they really into a ritual sacrifice. All right. But I think this is. Oh well you know let's hear it let's hear what you have to say.
Speaker 4OK. You never heard mentioned before that before there was an inflow. We just had and right owns unfiltered power it's kind of like white light and wind flows like the PRISM.
Speaker 5Yeah yeah it's it's splitting.
Speaker 4What if it's such that these animal beings of these super animate beings of the primordial the Jeannie's have some connection to own and that they can get this like unfiltered magic and that's why I do like crazy magical.
Speaker 5Yeah this is actually one of the things I was thinking about is that if there are primal lords creatures of Supreme Power who are analogues to the regions that would make sense that onis start sort of from central you know figures and yes sense since power outwards and downwards from there like a cascading fountain I could see that there are creatures with the pinnacle that are close to the source own.
Speaker 4Hmm I would be interested to have like very few of these like genies and they are all quite powerful and very interesting because they have this extra connection.
Speaker 5OK. Now this is starting to border on other territory and I wanted to talk about this. How many primal elements are there there do not have to be only for there might only be two will begin to have the primal elemental slime. Of course the right slime cake. What are the four that for adventure time they do is it slime ice cake or no candy and I don't remember what the forethought is.
Speaker 6I am unaware they know that the time is ended. Yeah I actually watch the season for the series finale. I really it was kind of very sweet.
Speaker 4I've now seen too much of Adventure Time.
Speaker 5I don't know. I think it's for better or for worse. I think it's a very worthy show.
Speaker 4All right. So back on track. What you will because I quite like the traditional ones but I's and totally good was having more because more is more fun.
Speaker 5Well so I so this was one of those things that I thought about a while ago of you know if we're talking about the primordial what are the things that make up reality and specifically physical reality. Now if we're taking a non platonic or you know Greek Greek Greek approach it's not just air earth water fire. The I believe the thing at the bottom. Yeah there's an Asian culture that grates metal Widner. Yeah I think it's air fire wood metal and spirit I think are the the five.
Speaker 8But we're going to do like a spirit thing. I mean we do a sphere. Thanks.
Speaker 5No no I don't think we're going to get a single Zamel. So here's what I was thinking. Here's a few other ones that could be potential of a very different nature. White Heat order form body mind and time.
Speaker 4Time I like it because it's trippy. My mind feels too much like soldan me.
Speaker 5Yeah. Also sounds too much like infinity stones at that point.
Speaker 4It does. It does.
Speaker 5For mind body.
Speaker 4Could it be like a form of.
Speaker 5No. You know what I'm going to say. No I think OK I think anima manifests differently but I do like the idea of having an analog. But it's like for instance what if this let's say were to lay out the primordial as an infinite plane that extends in all directions maybe the anima is something that's almost like a last work that's built right into the surface. Perhaps this is me just throwing out an idea. Honestly I don't love it and I don't think we're gonna go with it. But that's like an example of what we could do. I think there are different ways of treating it though like something you can draw from.
Speaker 4So here's a question that's kind of tangential it's pretty it's pretty small one though it might have a big impact if I were to go there to the primordial which is is it ordered right is there like okay this is the water plays. This is the time place this is.
Speaker 5This is another thing I wanted to talk about is it is it subdivided into four planes that you can visit by saying I want to plane or shifta specifically this one or this one or this one. Or is it just all locations within a medium and I think the idea of it. Yeah I kind of like the idea that we could say this maybe once upon a time there were borders between these places but they've all collapsed. And so you have forces and maybe that's where some of the secondary and tertiary elemental natures come from you can have a prince of steam more you know the lady of her I don't know I mean I use ice or something Yeah yeah exactly like there's cold water right. Yeah there's all sorts of different ways that you can take it and I think part of it. So so just to go back to the elements for a second. My context for why I created light heat order inform potential elementals was because each one of those depending on how much or how little you have in the system changes the nature of it for instance you know when I say low heat low order high form low light what is that. What does that make you think of OK low he low order.
Speaker 13Low light high form Yeah.
Speaker 5Or maybe just take two of those let's just mix two for now. Loche will order. That's pretty. I don't know would that be water. Or like you know maybe high heat high heat low order would be gas high heat high order would be like maybe if I see a star. OK. Well yeah I mean I. Good point you. Especially in this place we're taking it to the maximal extremes but I don't know. So you know not to say that every single one of those needs to have a combination like them. You know Magic the Gathering color pie or anything like that but just that those are if we're talking. Because the thing is this man this episode's requiring a lot of like stepping back and kind of observing things and questioning the way that we approach this stuff. So for instance elements when we talk about elements like for instance you think about the periodic table of elements. It's always the building blocks of the world. QUINN Right. Yeah yeah. And so it's like what are the building blocks of how are they just Air Earth Water Fire. Okay fine if we do that then we do that but I just think that there might be something more interesting that catches the personality and nature of how Halime better not that those can't exist but that there's maybe a second access or there's this one thing that modifies them all or something.
Speaker 14Oooh dammit I had a cool idea but I thought I'd taken what will go. Go for it just drop it Voit. Okay. Like this kind of way they avoid the howling of if that's.
Speaker 3True. The howling void does exist. Howling void I guess to avoid.
Speaker 5You could say though that the void is the absence of for maybe the maybe the howling void is known as such because it is the antithesis to the primordial. It has no light no heat no order and no form. Everything is formless cold chaotic and you know and dark can we.
Speaker 4If we go with foreign can we rename it to order. Because form triggers me platonically.
Speaker 5Well we have. Well we already have order though. That's the thing. Order v. chaos form v. formless yeah. Basically like how much does the thing exist or not. So is it a theory all on some level like ghosts would have low form but high order. That's goofy I know. That's really cool. Yeah.
Speaker 4Well and that's why I'm saying we don't have to use these for a forum I feel like substance would be better if you don't go that route.
Speaker 5Here's a totally different way of approaching it but I'm just throwing curveballs at this point just to see if there's anything that upsets the apple cart. What about Apple. I don't know. What about chaos. Shameless trickery. Shame hope love things like that. It's bizarre. Like I said total curveball. No I'm not a fan. Yeah. Yeah me neither.
Speaker 4Hmm shame has to do with honor and fuck. Love is made love is a drug.
Speaker 5I have. I've heard it said that love indeed is a drug. I've heard it said that it is indeed the drug.
Speaker 4If you haven't taken a good and healthy unhealthy does just love it never lived through I say OK will shoot up now kids.
Speaker 5Let's take a step back here so let's go back to the whole idea of building blocks. You've got we've got Hallum. What's what is key about how obviously there's magic right and there's a created world there are some beyond talking about the physical stuff. Yeah well and so that's the thing. What makes the physical interesting at all. Is it just a play math that everything else sits on top of because they feel like that's missing an opportunity.
Speaker 4Your thing is very restrained devide matter right rerated of singleness into discrete categories.
Speaker 5Right. Yes. You know for instance you've got the states of matter. But what makes this is actually kind of. I mean this even just begs the question about fantasy worldbuilding in general. Is it seems oftentimes that the stage itself is all is just simply that it's just set design and everything else that happens on it. It's focused on the characters. But one of the things about Siddhar in the first place is that Siddhar is supposed to be or supposedly has some nature form of life of its own that that the that the the world itself is supposed to be essentially stillborn or at least that there's debate about that because it was you know killed you know the heart of it the Arab or Crystal was shattered during the Ascaris which if you're confused about what the hell we're talking about go ahead and check episode 2 no episode 1. That will make more sense if you check out Episode 1.
Speaker 4So I see two moves we can keep we can keep attempting to kind of you know fit our interests which are you know I like some of the ideas you're throwing out like order I log into the three categories to figure out if we can write come up with an interesting yet new conception of this or we might go through a curveball here and just think with this is worrisome. There are a lot of elemental stuff out there. There is so much that there is no categorization of it. Because you Nicholas. There's bits that order myths. You know there's time this I don't know and it's not equal either.
Speaker 5I mean I definitely think with the idea of dispersion of that this place is a mix of all of this that there's nothing equal about one or the other. So you said it was infinite. Well true I did. I mean I think it is I think it's an infinitely large flat plane where you can kind of travel in any direction forever and so maybe there's some known lands and then there's some unknown lands when things start to fall apart and get very chaotic and you just get interesting maybe there's almost like the landscape not entirely aping view Lluvia I'm here but like that there is sort of a shifting nature to the landscape that things elemental nature's bubble up and out and you just have a mountain range of just kind of starts growing over the period a period of years or so. You know it just kind of in the middle of a lake you know and then you have like you know magma rivers that just break through the side of or just like you know wind that you know boerewors it all away into a giant crater like crazy plate tectonics. The plates are elements yes that's kind of what I'm thinking is like yes exactly like that. The same way that Plate Tectonics can be observed over long periods of time. You can measure that and hell even time itself could be like a plate that shifts and breaks apart and moves and so things time isn't consistent everywhere. Light isn't consistent everywhere. Sometimes there is just a bubble of light that is blown out in someplace and so like you know a quote unquote day lasts for several because this is like you know like it's the testing grounds for everything that is trying to do. So it would kind of make sense that if it was left untended it's just sort of like an empty you know let's just run the elements for forever and see what happens after all that time they just start to whatever systems were you know whatever wheels began spinning countless ages ago have just been going and going and going and it's become completely an unpredictable clock. I take it. OK. All right so that's like I feel like that's a good place to start. I mean we can always add more elements later but I do like this sort of open door policy about you know the nature of things and that there is a natural governance and you know and so that it would make sense that mortal souls who visit primordia him would occasionally you know some would perceive it and say ah it breaks down into these four clear elements earth air water fire for everything is of at least a combination of the two. You know you have those glaciers off you know in this district area this area you have this thing you know over here. And another would say I'll bet you see you missed this axis of you know light heat and order where you know you're you know you're missing that these things combine and this way make this and a lack of water produces that. And so each person is true in a way.
Speaker 8Yes I think that's the thing that's how it should go. OK. Especially because your mayor you can see this card you can see in a card Frank. We've got a car and we've got a cart. Yes.
Speaker 4The Kurds says we as the creators sometimes seem to just be like listen no one really knows. Oh yeah.
Speaker 5Yeah. Like playing a card. I thought you meant like we received a card from somebody I was like What are you talking about. Something came in the mail.
Speaker 4Yes. Good thing I put my address up send the fan mail.
Speaker 5So I think well kind of flesh this one out. More later but I do like the idea of I mean you even got stuff like storms like our rainclouds and element is Lightning an element you know just because not everything shows up all the time does it it is necessarily not yet ph balance. You can literally measure ship by that you know it is just the scales by which you measure the physical world a lot. I think that's a good place to start. So how how do we cap this off let's let's kind of round this stuff out for this evening. Where do we go from here. Do we talk about a city as far as let's let's start with this elemental Lord. So we brought you were talking about the Gion or the you know those creatures may be called. Are there. Does that mean that there are not a finite number of Lords and maybe that they have different levels of power.
Speaker 4How do you think that works. I think they have got the. There's the. So if we want to go the standard the division is Dow is earth.
Speaker 5OK Ashin is an air genie Efreeti meaning I was trying to think that word and Marid is a water Genie. Okay well we'll start with those terms. That's a good place to begin. I'm okay with using those. I feel like they exist outside of just DNA as well.
Speaker 4I think they're pole and then there's also some a few there like Jan which are like general Jamis that are like perceived there are from all elements like weaker because of it.
Speaker 5Yeah I mean you've got those dwarf looking motherfuckers whose heads are always on fire.
Speaker 4Those are forever names. But there is an elemental running or elemental denizens but yet so you went over the denizens well.
Speaker 5And this is what I'm thinking Yeah how does civilization work. I think people have goals right. They probably are their cities. Is there just one city. I don't think there's just one city.
Speaker 4I think we've got some big big players right. The most powerful people the gods of the elements. If you. Yes right. Given that right. And this is I think where a lot of the scholars agree on elements who are like listen we know these incredible powerful beings exist and they seem to lord over this. So maybe this is the right division. Yeah maybe it's kind of like.
Speaker 5We can quantify at least these many. We have no idea how many there truly are. Especially because most people who venture out into the sort of stranger lands where things are less stable they rarely come back you know with any knowledge. No you know what. OK here's here's I think maybe what it is. There are there are four kingdoms there are four clear kingdoms there's probably some smaller other kingdoms but they're ruled by elemental lords that correspond with air earth water and fire. And so when most people think about it they think about those four but really that's just kind of a starting point because we're all you know there could be an empire hidden in the hills of the you know the lady of time or something like that and you just don't know because this is the place that most likely can be controlled and held by you know things that you're familiar with.
Speaker 4But I do think there's like some strange little children of these great beings which is like right when a gene or some Renfree like gets you know it's going with a marriage rate you might get some steam steam like yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 5I mean well you know they put on some Marvin Gaye. That's part of it. I mean I think we might we might just have to have an episode where we talk all about sex baby because I mean there's a lot that has to do with sexuality and gender and and also just how reproduction works.
Speaker 4I mean the most sex the the sexiest episode. Hello I'm a Lauriski of lore keepers like me just put permanent Marvin Gaye on that scale.
Speaker 5Because you know the thing is there's like there are you know here's a random example of the mike and race you know the mushroom peoples. They don't have a word for gender in their culture because they have no conception of gender because there are over 150000 different genders.
Speaker 4I mean the question is mushroom people.
Speaker 5Oh my goodness. Yeah yeah. They're a thing. But yeah I think that that especially in a world of fantasy there is room for not just that stuff but also the conversation about those things that was actually one of the things I have always felt like you know if you're making a world of fantasy first of all like it is extremely like nature is wilder than just male and female. You know you've got all sorts of you know a sexual and you know nonbinary creatures that change their gender halfway through life. And I wanted to make sure that the place that wasn't making it not only is that is that like you know embracing if that's an understanding of that stuff but also like a place where anybody could feel like they actually could you know tell a story or be something.
Speaker 4Exactly. Think of it the Greek way. You know actually they say never mind.
Speaker 5Oh yeah.
Speaker 4Maybe not think of the Greeks as a very seriously divided gender roles but the way they view sexuality is was like you know if you think they're attractive attractive just look and jump they're going yeah.
Speaker 10Which is you know if you just take that if you just just take that you know the gender stuff you know the pet Haraszti ignore all that's yeah yeah that's what it is. They
Speaker 5think oh I'll say it we'll say that for the Greek stuff. God I mean I think we got to wrap this one up but let me ask you Carter what among all the different things we talked about you think you're most curious to investigate or learn more about when it comes to the super easy.
Speaker 4I don't know about you know the four great Jeannie lords. OK.
Speaker 5Yeah. I mean I like the idea of kingdoms. I like the idea of there being the reason why anybody can visit there is because the only fucking anchor point in this whole place. It's an infinite plane. There's no center but this is the one place where they have a rough control over their own place and so it's like you can. You know when other stuff tries to encroach they actually beat it back to Korea. Think of it like it are under control on some level. Obviously I'm sure they have wars with each other and shit like these guys are like maybe that are as powerful as the regions but they're not too far off so I'm sure they're like yeah like yes supremely powerful. This is a mortal danger and I think they're a mortal not because there's anything in their nature to live forever but simply because they are capable of fueling themselves by their own power and by their own nature and oftentimes like you know maybe they're just literally just the source of this type of animal.
Speaker 4And you know if what if what we saying remains true. Right. These guys and gals and others are right direct line to own and the regions right now are at the regions are deluded to their single flow.
Speaker 5True yeah. Whereas Onya in some way. Oh man this is I love this. OK so C.S. Lewis I'm going to just kind of pull him into this because I love his idea his cosmology. He has a statement where he talks about there is a certain certain order of power among things in the universe. And by their nature they correspond to a level of distributing or displaying a different type of the majesty of God within them. So you know he kind of talks about it like stars planets beyond that you know you have like mountain ranges and things and beyond that you have like. Plants and animals and then us right. And he talks about in one direction it is less motility less less choice but more power. So Star and a planet they don't have any power of their own. But they still display sort of the splendor esque glory of the you know of the Christian God you know whereas on the other side you've got spiritual beings beings you know with souls who get to get to make their own moral choices and well that you know we will never be as powerful as a star. Maybe society will one day get there but like individuals are still born mortal or whatever animals you we are not as strong as a tiger or as you know like as as you know we don't have wings or whatever but we do have the ability to choose you know in a way that they can't. And I know I like that approach to you know to sort of that conceptual because then it implies where I'm going with this is that the gene or you know the elemental lords have that sort of same splendor and majesty of own within them that they have this ability to access the immutable power of fire or air or whatever it is along the same line I think they're predictable in a certain way that right they manifest the ash beauts of Dielman just like regions manifest the attributes of their flow. Yeah they still have personalities. Earth is stolid and stubborn you know water is fluctuating and and are curial yeah mercurial air is is way very and and somewhat maybe absent or just just and sometimes can fly into a dangerous rage. You know there's I don't know. Yeah there's definitely fire of course is just impulsive but can also simmer or mold or over a long periods of time. Yeah there's a reason why we go back these four elements over and over again. Because they are very applicable. But we I mean we should wrap it up again. Rosemary were ever Ray Revilla Well I mean before I do I wanted to say a kind of the thing I was interested but didn't this desire. You know I didn't I think I kind of got jumped in the middle of it. I mean I went off about C.S. Lewis as I tend to drink.
Speaker 4Yes. What did you find most interesting. Oh gosh it really upset.
Speaker 5JE Garmisch thanks for asking. I think the thing that I am the most curious about. Is what does this imply for the genus. It's a good question. When they are made in the image of different elements I'm just very curious to see the different sub races that are birthed as a result of that. But yeah. Jassy basically like kind of like half genie people have elementals. So looks like. Yeah me too. I mean do do all of them have it do some of them do some of them not. I don't know. But I think those things we'll just have to wait for another day we're starting to run long. So thanks everybody for listening. We hope you enjoyed this exploration. The lands of Saddar in the realms beyond specifically primordia and perhaps found some good material to add to your own stories. You can reach us at the LERKE keepers on Twitter. You can email us at work Yoopers podcast at gmail dot com. You can also find this on our slash worldbuilding. We typically submit something on Wednesdays if you're curious to see where the discussion goes. You can check in there.
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Speaker 4Don't forget there are always more tales to tell. Bye. Bye.