90. Walking Together for Truth and Reconciliation. Robin Marshall. Guelph, Ontario, Canada. 08/22/22🍁

Robin and Dave transcend time and space to discuss the Pope's, Walking Together, visit to Canada and apology for residential schools.  The Hillside Music Festival brought Robin and Dave together on Sunday, July 24.  The first day of the Papal visit.  The Pope's apology means different things to different people.  The apology wasn't for everyone. But it's important symbolic significance is. With less than a quarter of the recommendations completed from the Truth and Reconciliation Report (2015), hold ups in the establishment of Healing Funds, and documents still not turned over the work continues.  Robin and Dave discuss the Pope's apology for the physical, emotional and sexual abuse of children at residential schools.

Papal Visit

Truth and Reconciliation Report, 2015

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Transcript

0:25

Good day and welcome to the pandemic show stories of the pandemic for people living in the pandemic. No one is alone on the pen. Demi show Thanks for joining us. As we unite humanity through stories of hope, connection, and community in the face of the global pandemic, we are all in this together, and we're glad you're here together with us. Thanks for taking a moment to like subscribe and follow the pandemic show on social media.

Dave 0:53

I'd just like to say that I'm recording this interview on the upper Canada treaty territory, the traditional home of the sho Ana and new trail. We have a very special guest here with us today to talk about the recent visit by Pope Francis in July, 2022 to Canada. To apologize for the residential school system. Who are you? Hi, I'm Robin. Robin. Thank you so much for joining us here today. On episode 90 of the pandemic show, where we are gonna explore the Pope's visit to Canada last month and the impact of his apology, for the Catholic churches' involvement in residential schools, and for listeners who aren't familiar with residential schools, residential schools were set up in the 18 hundreds in Canada. As a way to, oppress indigenous people to take their land and to assimilate them into colonial culture. Robin, would you agree with that,

Robin 1:55

highlight on the assimilation?

Dave 1:57

Yeah. And it started, with some churches in the early. 18 hundreds around 1831, but by 1880, it was a fully funded system by the federal government, except in the provinces of new Brunswick and PEI. And the last residential school officially closed in 1997. it's something that Canada is coming to terms with and it's, it's been a big part of the pandemic. Here in, Canada, especially going back to spring 2021, cam loops where 215 unmarked graves were found of children that had died, during their time at a residential school. And since that time, over a year ago, hundreds and thousands of more unmarked grave had been found at residential school sites across Canada, and even in the United States. Yeah. Robin, we met at the hillside music festival on July 24th. I was making the walk in from parking lot a, down to the main stage

Robin 3:00

Yeah, I was volunteering at that corner, directing traffic and, uh, there wasn't any traffic at the moment. So we ended up just having

Dave 3:08

a. I was really touched that that was the day, July 24th at the Pope had arrived in Canada for this, huge historical apology. I was wearing my, every child matters orange shirt And you and I got talking about it like so many Canadians, what do we do next? How do we reconcile this horrible part of our. History. there was a truth and reconciliation report released in 2015. Canadian Senator Murray Sinclair, and a team had been working on it. I think since about 2007 to 2015, there was a final report with 94 calls to action. And here we are seven years later and it appears that less than a quarter of the calls to action have been fully implemented, but the popes visit and apology is one of those, calls to action 58. And in March, 2022, a delegation of indigenous people from Canada went over to the Vatican. And the Pope first apologized. When we talked that morning, We weren't really sure what to expect. We weren't sure what was gonna happen, but our hearts and our souls and our minds were there, with the Pope and with the victims of the residential school model. And since that time, the popes, the Pope's visit, concluded. He was here from July 29th. He spent time in Alberta. Quebec and he went up to none of it. So what did you, what were you thinking that day? July 24th

Robin 4:49

I had an interesting, experience in high school when I was learning about Canadian history, because I had a teacher who was native, Mr. Walker, he was at the, G C B I in Guelph, and, um, He was one of the first students to do the native studies program offered at, um, I forget which university, but I think Ning. so when he was teaching high school. History. He was teaching about the residential schools and he was teaching about colonialism and he was teaching about, the, the various effects that, that had on native persons. And, I think that. Was very good for me to experience in high school, because it, in the same way that having a Canadian history teacher that was a feminist was very positive for me.

Dave 5:50

it's new that we were taught about residential schools and the oppressive model that was used to exploit and assimilate first nations people here in Canada. I remember when I was in grade eight and there was a little. There's like a little blurb of it in the, there was a paragraph. Yeah. And we, and we read about, children were, were, were taken from their families and forced to go to school and yeah, it, it alluded, it didn't get too specific, but it alluded that they weren't a really good place. And then we watched a movie, I hear the owl call my name, which. Was a little bit more, it gave you the impression that these children were abused. These children were neglected and, and it showed you the ne the, the ne the negative side of it. And, and, and that was in the nineties I remember that was around the same time of the Oka crisis, where there was a land dispute in Quebec, and there was a standoff. Unfortunately, some people died. And it lasted for the summer of 1990. And one of the things I remember there is the whiskey trench and the indigenous people were trying to move their children and women away from the conflict. And they were driving down. They were driving in a convoy and people throwing bottles and rocks. And just to see that hate as a young person, that's one of my. First memories. And to think that people that were older than us, they wouldn't have been taught about it because we were still living in that period of secrecy and denial.

Robin 7:20

And this was all done very much behind closed doors. And like, I have this very personal connection to the residential schools in that I found out recently that one of my great grandmothers was a teacher at one of the. Residential schools in Southern Ontario. and she was known by my family to be a very nasty woman. she, once when my, mother got her ears pierced, chased her down the road, screaming hen and swinging a broom at trying to actually hit her with the broom. So

Dave 7:55

if that's how somebody treats their own family. Look out anybody else, Wow. What a interesting, connection that somebody in your family. Who has a bit of a history of being a negative person was involved in this whole, situation. on that day we met that Sunday at hillside. I was in an optimistic mood yeah. About the popes apology. I agree. The Pope's apology is very, very symbolic mm-hmm but symbols matter. And how can we move forward if there is no apology and ownership for right. For what was done now? How, how were you feeling on July 24th? The morning when the Pope just arrived in Canada before we knew what was gonna happen?

Robin 8:38

I think what I ended up saying to you that day was, that I. Don't identify as a Christian anymore. I, for one thing I was, I was never Catholic. I was Protestant, but as much as I am still spiritual and as much as I'm still a theist and as much as I'm still, very much like personally involved in my faith, that's too many dead babies. For me to want to, be associated with that organization.

Dave 9:08

Yeah, I understand that. And I was raised Catholic. I just really felt my roots and my childhood with the Pope coming to try to write these historical wrongs. So I was paying attention to it big time. And that's all I could think about and talk about that day. There was a lot of pessimism to people. I talked to that anything positive was gonna come from the apology. And this was among other white settlers that I was talking to that day. Yeah. Just to get a sense of where people were and then the Pope delivered a apology, I believe was on the Monday. In Alberta. one of the things that seemed to be missing from that apology was the recognition of the sexual violence and sexual abuse and then that seemed to be what you heard people complaining about, that it wasn't. Touching on all the kind of big sins that had happened or perpetrated against these poor students. But then when he got to Quebec and he was delivering another talk that talking point had made it in. So during that week that he was here, I did feel that Pope Francis was listening to Canadians indigenous people. and watching the PTN news, the Aboriginal people's television network. it really did break down a lot of different ways for indigenous people, too. it seemed like there were some people that the, a apologies, meant a great deal. And gave them a lot of peace, especially older people that went through the residential school, system. then there seemed to be a lot of other

Robin 10:38

people. Well, you have to keep in mind that it's, it's this very complicated situation where a lot of, native persons, do identify as. And to have both of those things in, in yourself and know that like one part, like one part of your identity was so harmful to the other part of your identity. That reconciliation is so

Dave 11:02

important. it helped a lot of people and it gave them some positive closure to a really horrible chapter in their life. So I think that was the positives that it did really impact some people, but then there was a lot of other people who, The apology didn't didn't mean much and no, when you listen to, to people with that perspective, they thought there wasn't enough action. the Pope wasn't rescinding the doctrine of discovery, which was the legal framework. That came about in the late 14 hundreds and early 15 hundreds through people decre, which allowed Christian explorers to possess the property of places they went to that were non Christian. I think it started out with the, um, the Portuguese,

Robin 11:45

if you look at, a lot of that Christian history at that point, you have a lot of, Pope slash emperors who are essentially using baptism as a form of conquest.

Dave 11:57

Bingo. yes, I think it's important that we're all learning about these concepts and talking about 'em the doctrine of discovery also said that people that were quote unquote non-Christian, which protest. Thank you. They couldn't even own. So when these Christian explorers went places, just by fact that they were Christian, the other people weren't, they could then own the property, own the land, own the resources and exploit them.

Robin 12:25

I think that's like where I'm having my disconnect with Christianity as an identity is I don't feel that I am in a place where I want to consider people. I feel like that's dangerous. And I feel that that's exploitative potentially. because when you consider someone other, you make them lesser, you make them lesser in your mind and you justify, certain actions towards them, which could be negative, which you wouldn't do towards someone that isn't other.

Dave 12:56

Very good, point Robin. but I think

Robin 12:58

you're right that the doctrine of discovery, very much does that. And if we are looking at. the original ideas of missionary work and the original ideas of, evangelical, action. you're not supposed to, you're not supposed to be considering people other you're supposed to be considering them, children of God, bingo, because they are children of God who only God can. Call in and you are just doing the action of showing what someone who's called in can do. But when you are using things like the doctrine of discovery for your own gain, you're not acting like a Christian.

Dave 13:37

Kaboom big time. also with the, the doctrine of discovery, it hasn't been mentioned and it's been used as the legal framework. That's causing indigenous people a lot of trouble in getting their treaty rights and getting treaties for those of those groups that don't have them. the doctrine of discovery is that lynchpin that justifies this whole model. Oppression when the indigenous groups were going to the Vatican in March, our very first guest on the pandemic show Meredith Warren. She said this apology needs to be supported with some action. And one of the, one of the big first steps could be rescinding the doctrine of discovery. I think the doctrine of discovery has shown how scary it could be in terms of one group oppressing another, through this example of the residential school model and the colonialization of north America. But now we're at a stage where we're going into space I wouldn't want the doctrine a discovery to be used. Oh yeah. To justify economic exploitation and oppression, outing space. And we are at that stage where we've jumped off to the moon, we're jumping off to Mars can we be trusted to go out. Into the galaxy and the universe and meet other other races when we don't have our own legal code and moral guide in order. I see the historical implications of the doctrine of discovery, and I think it's important that we address this because it could have untold ramifications as we move out into space exploration. Yeah. Potentially.. Another concern I have. And this is something I hear and I'm seeing across Canada is where's the Catholic church's healing fund well,

Robin 15:20

and it's also not just the Catholic church, like where's the Anglican church in this, where's the Methodist church in this where's the, like, they were all involved.

Dave 15:30

Good point. The Catholic church might have had the most residential schools, but it seemed like every major religion at the time was involved. Oh,

Robin 15:37

yeah. Like the Anglican church has its hands just as dirty.

Dave 15:40

I could only imagine the politics involved in the Vatican and the politics involved in this whole story.

Robin 15:47

But like, you, you look at the history of Canada and like the history of political, rulership, and. Christian religion is integral to that leadership, they haven't been separate historically. They they've said that they are like that. There's a separation between church and state, but that hasn't been true historically until like recently. And even now, like we're just kind of getting there.

Dave 16:11

that's a really good insight too. Robin, we act like we've got this separation of church and state. When we look in practice, it doesn't seem that we have that.

Robin 16:20

and also like you look at the history of like things like the orange order, which have been historically, I'm not saying. Whether they are now, but historically they've been outright

Dave 16:31

racist

Robin 16:31

look up sometime how many of our prime ministers have been part of the orange order? It's it's a percentage

Dave 16:38

Robin, thanks for shining. More historical light on this important conversation here today on the pan Demi show. We met the first day of the pops visit. Nothing had really happened. It was kind of a wait and see, as you watched that week unfold with the Pope's presentation in Alberta, then in Quebec and then up. None of it. What, what were you thinking that week?

Robin 17:01

I, I don't think it was for me, in any way, shape or form, just because, I have never identified as Catholic. The Pope is not a significant figure for me, but I recognize that the Pope is a significant figure for. A lot of people that were directly involved in this case or in these cases. So for that reason, I was very, hopeful that it would be, that missing piece that a lot of them needed to. And for that reason, I thought it was a very good thing that was happening. but it

Dave 17:38

wasn't for me,. felt invested in what was going on now. I didn't know what was gonna come from it and I it's, it's gonna be interesting to see what comes from it now. is the Catholic church gonna pony up the money that they're on the hook for, for the healing? Are the other churches gonna do that or are they gonna go screaming and kicking and not wanting to do any of the real work that's involved? Even when you hear about the number of files that were moved from Canada to the Vatican. And I, I, I'm not sure about the other. Face, if they've got similar kinds of things in terms of needing to share all the information that they have regarding this time in history. But it, it seems like there's so much more that needs to be done. And I wonder if it's going to get done and then. In terms of the, the, the economic settlements. And then even when you hear about there's new charges and allegations in Quebec around one of the bishops in Quebec being inappropriate towards people,

Robin 18:35

I don't see how you can have suddenly no problems of, this sexual nature. When we know. That it's been endemic to the Catholic church and to the other church bodies as well.

Dave 18:55

This would be a good timing. This might be a good time too, for the church, allowing priest to like the, a vow of celibacy. Yeah, maybe we need to rethink that. I,

Robin 19:06

I think that there is, an overlap with, people that are going to be willing to take a vow of appearing celibate, and people that are willing to take advantage of, That situation, I don't think necessarily that all people that are celibate are going to be sexual criminals, but I think that there's an overlap and I think it's been allowed to occur. Within that system, just because there is so much built up trauma within that group. Like, I don't know how you're supposed to have someone that has likely experienced that trauma be in charge of stopping it. For instance,

Dave 19:56

very complex. Yeah, very complex. But

Robin 19:58

you get the same thing within families where, child sexual trauma has occurred. You need, like, I don't know, maybe the government needs to be mandating therapy for ministers,

Dave 20:12

it is such a horrific subject. And. I don't know what the, the right answers are. And, and I don't know how it got this bad, but I'm glad that we're talking about it. Yeah. And that we're ending the secrecy. I'm glad the Pope, listened to people across Canada coast to coast, to coast. in his talk in Quebec, he explicitly addressed the sexual exploitation of children by members of the church. Yeah. Um, this very important symbolic, apology, one of the 94 calls to action, call to action 58, the popes apology. It really is just the beginning of more hard work. Because when I talk to people in the know I'm told that there's even more indigenous children in custody, whether it's foster care, some other type of government custody now than during residential schools. So. The intergenerational well have in

Robin 21:07

mind that, more, indigenous children are being considered indigenous than were previously because before the policies of the government were to exclude people from that identity in as many cases as possible. Interesting. So like my boyfriend he's just applying for his native status now because that's possible. Whereas before, because his mother was part of the sixties sweep, she was adopted into a Christian family, and would not have been considered. Of native status anymore

Dave 21:47

because of the adopted family.

Robin 21:49

Right. But now she has her status and this is all, thanks to, work being done within the native community. So like we can't solve this problem for another group. The solutions have to come from these native bands. Who are going to solve their own problems with our support. And when they're asking for our support monetarily, and like, that's mostly it, like we should be answering that call and trusting them to know what is best for their own

Dave 22:23

people. Good point Robin. that's interesting too, how the government at the time would categorize people differently.

Robin 22:31

if you got married to a, Caucasian person, like you lost your status. If you were

Dave 22:36

a. Lot of important details it's such a complex yet not confusing conversation right. And wrong. Right.

Robin 22:44

But like, when we try to say that, like the government should step in and solve the water issues and that sort of thing, like, that's not necessarily. As, as simple as a pro of a problem, as, as it sounds like, because a lot of cases come down to the government, doesn't wanna give up control to these, native groups that. Really just need to be able to govern their own lives.

Dave 23:15

And the indigenous people of Canada are still governed by the Indian act, which nobody seems to be happy with how that's that's working. Right. Right. It's interesting. As we move into the end of summer, 2022, where this whole reconciliation journey. Is going to go next. But I think the fact that we're talking about it, and that things are happening important, symbolic things like Pope Francis come into Canada and apologizing. Hopefully this momentum will, continue and we can get rid of some of these historical, these historical dynamics of the other. And we can, yeah, we can get rid of that limiting mindset. Yeah,

Robin 23:59

well, in that infantilizing mindset of like, I can solve your problem better than you can.

Dave 24:06

What do you think people should be looking for? And what should we be saying? Less than 25% of the calls to action have been, been addressed? We're going into a municipal election cycle here in Southern Ontario. Should I be asking my municipal counselor? What is the township of Lanham going, doing in terms of the truth and reconciliation report? I guess I should be doing that. We should, we should all be doing that. Seven years on seven years on we shouldn't

Robin 24:31

and pass them, uh, a copy of it. Like I haven't read it, but like I'm also not in government. And like, they should have like

Dave 24:42

last summer I started reviewing the summary report. I found it really upsetting, how bad the experience was, these children were sent to the residential schools when they got there, their hair was cut, their clothes were thrown out and burned. They were dehumanized in so many different ways. Then they were forced to garden and they weren't even allowed to eat the food that they gardened. They were fed subpar food. And, and the tone of the report as it sheds light on the, all these historical? Um, well,

Robin 25:12

cause it was, it was supposed to be, self-sustaining right. And you do that by enslaving your, your subjects

Dave 25:21

basically alarming,

Robin 25:23

when you view people as commodities and other, you don't mind doing such things

Dave 25:27

to them. And during the report, the tone that, Senator Mauricea, Claire and the other, the important people that worked on that report, they talked about how reconciliation can't be about guilt, shame, and blame. And we need to bring people together as we end this silence and get us talking about it and acknowledging it. And now the pandemic has pushed a lot of people off the deep end in terms. Misinformation and yeah, and, and believe

Robin 25:55

well, isolation is really bad for critical thinking because we do critical thinking best when we bounce ideas off of each other. And we have those people to tell us, wait, no, that's like really. Off off the deep end. Exactly. Like you're saying, but when we're isolated and we're only in taking information from a few sources, uh, we have the tendency to go off the deep end and we have the tendency to, stray from center.

Dave 26:27

We're lucky that we're going through the great reopening that we were able to gather and celebrate music and culture at the hillside music festival. Oh yeah. And hopefully this great reopening, paired with the popes apology, the symbolic apology. Hopefully this will allow us all to, have more conversations with our neighbors, with our families, with our friends on this important topic. So we can be thinking critically about our next steps. Yeah.

Robin 26:52

And I, I think, anything that the government does should definitely take into account the voices of the people that it's affecting, because we are each the experts on our own conditions.

Dave 27:06

Robin, we are so lucky here at the pandemic show that you were able to join us today with your unique perspective on this important matter. And I'm really grateful that I met you on the long walk from parking lot a to the main stage at Guelph lake on the first day, the people visit. July 24th and I've gotten a lot out of this talk

Robin 27:27

Thank you for having me.

27:28

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