Embracing the Cycle of Clarity & Chaos with Melissa Davis

Are you familiar with the pattern of going from having absolute clarity to chaos and confusion?

Join us as Melissa Davis, Founder of Humanity, Inc., shares her insights on navigating this inevitable cycle of clarity and chaos as an entrepreneur. Discover how embracing this cycle can propel us forward without getting derailed.

In the world of entrepreneurship, the journey is often compared to a roller coaster ride – the exhilarating highs and the challenging lows, the moments of crystal-clear clarity and the times of utter chaos.  It's a constant push and pull between doubt and conviction.

In this conversation, we'll explore:

• The reality and importance of this familiar cycle.
• Powerful strategies to embrace this cycle, transforming it from a source of fear and doubt into a catalyst for growth and innovation.
• The incredible opportunity we have to turn what feels like a barrier into a springboard for success.

What if we could not only navigate but also wholeheartedly embrace this cycle?

Let this candid conversation stir your thinking on how you can transform this familiar cycle into a powerful tool that propels you forward on your entrepreneurial journey.

Learn more about Melissa:
https:/www.humanityinc.world

Connect on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissa-heisley-davis/

Learn more about Carla:  https:/www.carlareeves.com/

Connect on LI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/reevescarla/
Connect on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/carlasreevesaz/

Explore Coaching with Carla:  https://bookme.name/carlareeves/lite/explore-coaching

Support the podcast!  Check out the merch!  https://www.bonfire.com/store/the-differently-shop/

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:05

Welcome back to differently, melissa Davis. Hey, I'm excited to be here. I'm excited you're here too, and I want to let the listeners know that you've been coming inside of my business and doing some values work with my clients, and it's been really fun and insightful. I think we're still kind of figuring out what it all looks like and that's been fun too, right, that's been a lot of fun Figuring it out as we go. But also I think it ties to what we're talking about today, which is this clarity to chaos cycle that we face as entrepreneurs and really in life. I think what the value you're bringing to my clients is kind of anchoring in your values can be such a tool when you're navigating that clarity to chaos cycle as an entrepreneur. Thank you for doing that and everybody stay tuned because we'll be telling you more and more about that. But today we felt inspired. Actually, this was your idea, this topic. I was super inspired by it because it's something I face on the daily. I want to know how long have you?

Speaker 2: 1:26

been an entrepreneur About five years, five, six years.

Speaker 1: 1:31

Something like that. Okay, awesome, I've been an entrepreneur since like 2000,. No, not 2000. Yeah, 2005-ish, like around there. This cycle has been going on all that time For people listening tell them.

Speaker 2: 1:53

Curious to hear how it's changed over time for you.

Speaker 1: 1:57

Yes For the listener. What is this cycle and why is this important to you?

Speaker 2: 2:05

Yeah, I call it the clarity chaos continuum. It's just my funny way of trying to normalize what happens as an entrepreneur and just reinforce the idea that it's actually a natural, normal part of our journey in entrepreneurship and in our business. It's just a pattern I recognized in myself and then in my clients. We reach these high points of clarity where we get really excited and we're clear about where we're going and what our business looks like or the direction we're going in. Then it feels like not so long after that. There's moments after we dip into this depth of chaos where we lose track of the clarity. We experience doubt, we experience fear. Things don't feel as clear anymore. We doubt what we're doing. Maybe it's triggered by some feedback we got from somebody, maybe it's just something we read or just our reaction to whatever the clarity is triggers doubt, but it happens. It can throw us. It can really cause us to feel like we're not cut out for this or that we're really not on the right track.

Speaker 2: 3:35

I think the big challenge is, I believe that so many entrepreneurs who experience this end up abandoning their vision because they experience it. What I believe is that if we understand that it's a normal part of the process and I'm going to explain why it's necessary, I think, in a second but that it's a normal part of the clarity process and the growth process. We can stick with it. We can use it as a tool for understanding that it's simply reactionary and that it comes with this positive upswing, because after every low dip into chaos, there is a big learning that comes from that, that leads us to the next point of clarity.

Speaker 2: 4:35

Something recently that just blew my mind and I think it's just a realization personally is that clarity. We have to relearn points of clarity over and over again. I don't know and Carly, you can jump in if this happens to you but it doesn't get integrated immediately. This clarity that we experience in our lives, in our business, we can realize something really big and important, but it doesn't mean that our mindset is fully there yet. It doesn't mean that we're able to integrate it right away into our business or apply it right away. When we face this change in behavior or implementation into our business and it doesn't happen right away, it can feel really overwhelming.

Speaker 1: 5:26

There's a lot of space there for the doubt and the second guessing and the questioning and the asking other people. I would get too much feedback and then you're literally in the chaos and then it is. It's really easy to step back or let it go and just feel like you know what. This isn't for me. I'm not cut out for this. I totally agree. I think it's so important that you're saying this is normal, this is expected, expect this. Just really put your focus on making sure that you're equipped to walk through that part, because you and I were having a conversation before we started that walking through the friction part, walking through the chaos part, is so important, it's such an important part of it because that's why we like or I like the inspired part. I love being in that inspired state. I want to hang out there more of the time and the point you're in is chaos.

Speaker 1: 6:35

It's like, oh, this is so uncomfortable. But that's usually where the really juicy stuff is happening, like you said, yeah, well, that's where there's something big that we need to learn right.

Speaker 2: 6:47

That ends up getting us to that clarity, and it's some realization, it's something right that just brings us back up into clarity again. But for some reason it requires that we kind of dip into that, whether it's introspection or it's like use of curiosity, get curious or simply just to work through that friction. But it is, it is, it's just a natural part of it, and I think if we can all kind of expect that that's what's going to happen and that part of our job as entrepreneurs is to, as you said, wade through that, we're going to be much better off and understand that it's not that we're not cut out for it, it happens to all of us and keep moving forward.

Speaker 1: 7:33

Yeah. Why does entrepreneurship bring up so much of this, Do you think?

Speaker 2: 7:42

I think entrepreneurship just triggers this period of massive growth for us. I mean, I think that we it requires a lot of rapid personal growth for us to survive it, for us to truly be great entrepreneurs. In a way that you know, navigating your career doesn't necessarily force you to do as quickly, but in entrepreneurship, I mean, you're forced to face your demons. You're forced to face, like all, your limiting beliefs. You're forced to learn how to wear every single hat right. You're forced to understand how to communicate with people at a whole another level. It just it forces such rapid personal growth, both internally and externally, that I think that's crazy challenging for entrepreneurs.

Speaker 1: 8:44

It's boot camp and I've been in the boot camp for 20 years. What does that say about me? Like I said to my husband this morning, I go don't go look in my office because I look like a mad scientist, like my papers are everywhere, like I'm in this, this project, right now. That is just challenging me on so many levels and I do kind of feel like a mad scientist and I think that's as a creative and somebody who has a lot of ideas and we're birthing ideas. It is the most confronting thing on the daily basis and I love it on some level, right, or we wouldn't have been it for 20 years.

Speaker 2: 9:27

No, and you know, I haven't met an entrepreneur who's determined to be successful, who doesn't value personal growth.

Speaker 1: 9:35

That's true.

Speaker 2: 9:37

I haven't met one. I don't think you'd last very long. I mean, I think that you have to really be driven by that.

Speaker 1: 9:46

Because in order to grow, you have to keep dealing with your own, like you said your own demons, your own head you have to be curious about that.

Speaker 2: 9:55

You have to be because the growth it's required. It's not simply like to be curious about it, like you actually have to. Like, you have to grow, you have to adapt and you have to grow.

Speaker 1: 10:09

What is your first memory of this clarity, chaos, continuum.

Speaker 2: 10:16

Oh, my first clarity of the continuum itself, like experiencing that, it was with my clients. It was when I started working with clients. So I had kind of started working through this values model on my own in my career and I kind of flipped that around on myself when I started my business and it was only when I started coaching other people and they were experiencing the same thing. I was Right, as we all know, as coaches we learn as much from our clients as we do, right, outside of that.

Speaker 2: 10:56

There's nothing like doing the work that reflects back to you what you're experiencing yourself, especially as coaches. And it was just noticing the pattern, right, and of it coming up and saying I experienced that too, more and more clients. You experienced that as well, you know, and just kind of noticing what happens. Right, oh, you're back, you're back here and this is what you were experiencing. Here's the lesson and I just got to witness it and kind of be present for it and notice the pattern for myself. But yeah, it was just seeing it over and over and through the network of entrepreneurs that I know, you know, even if I didn't work with them, we all just noticing that. We all tend to experience that, and the most successful entrepreneurs that I am around are very forward about that experience and are open and vulnerable about how they experience it.

Speaker 1: 12:00

Yeah, it's when you were talking about it. It took me back to and I'm getting a little bit tripped up, I think, on. I don't know you can tell me if this is the clarity, chaos continuum. But the story that popped in my head was back in early 2000s when I was a new mom but I had left my corporate job and it was kind of the very beginnings of my company called Sanity Journals and I had created this mom journal, like for myself, with my babies, to like record just moments I didn't wanna forget.

Speaker 1: 12:34

And somebody I think I had made several of them, I don't know somebody at this local church had gotten ahold of one and she called me and she said I want you to come speak to our mom's group and like you seem like you have some wisdom to share. And I was like, uh, terrified, but I said yes, like I felt like okay, like this is a yes moment. I'm supposed I need to say yes to this, even though I'm terrified inside. And I did say yes and but the like moments after right Is when that all the chaos starts to come, like the second guessing am I equipped? The doubt, the fear, the, am I cut out for this? All of that right? Is that how you describe? Like a version of the clarity, chaos, continuum?

Speaker 2: 13:30

Yeah, of course, right, it's anything. You know. It's often triggered by doubt, right, you know, even success triggers it, and so it's triggered by so many things. And the point is that you know there's a high and then it just dips right into this chaos where you're experiencing doubt, you're experiencing fear and confusion and we've got to climb. You know there's a process of climbing back out of that and whatever it takes, in that moment it was probably doing it, right, it was just like just doing it anyway, you know. And then you know, what did you learn from that? There was this big learning, or this experience that then brings you back up to more clarity and oftentimes it is doing it and then experiencing the outcome that allows us to gain some clarity again and kind of pull back to a high.

Speaker 1: 14:33

Yeah, and I think in those moments I mean that cycle.

Speaker 1: 14:35

While it looks different today when I go and have a speaking event, there's still a variation of that cycle that I go through every single time.

Speaker 1: 14:45

But what helps pull me through is this I do feel like there's a large something that's larger than myself, that I am called to do these things and that helps me show up, regardless of how I'm feeling, and I think that's something that I share with my friends and share with my clients. Is this idea of your feel like? Are you allowing your feelings or your commitments to run the show? And so, and recognizing that in my own life, I let my feelings run the show for so many years in my business and in my life, and switching that over to what am I committed to? And if I'm showing up to that more of the time, in the face of whatever I'm feeling, I am able to make more traction, and that's been something that's really, really helped me still helps me today, all the time. What am I committed to? Because feelings, being an empathic person, my feelings are big, but they're not always facts and I have to challenge them all the time. What is it for you?

Speaker 2: 15:57

What triggers me into chaos, yeah, or what gets me out, oh, yeah, yeah. Well, you know lots of things trigger me into chaos, you know. I think, just as they do for you and everyone else, what has helped me to kind of climb back out or to at least be clear while I'm experiencing that's. It's more likely that that, what you know, is how I experience it. I'm still feeling it, but I can regain the clarity and so often it's, you know, you felt very confident and clear yesterday about this, right, or last week or last month, what's changed, and so you know that is helps me to understand whether it's my feeling. Or I received valid feedback right, that's thrown me off. Or I've received feedback but it's not valid, or I'm experiencing doubt or fear, right, is it a feeling? Is it feedback? Is it the right feedback or not the right feedback?

Speaker 2: 17:07

Because we often receive feedback from people that's not relevant and being able to understand whether external feedback and that can come from a lot of different places. It can come from something we've read, it can come from a person, it can come from a client, it can come from all different, you know places, but what is it? Is it relevant and what does it really mean, and so that kind of helps me, and that's it's similar to what you're saying. Is it a feeling or is it a commitment? And if it's a commitment, what's changed? What is the external thing that triggered this for you? But I still feel it, I still feel the chaos, and so for me, I think it's just how can I get to the learning faster? That's been my goal. How can I get to the learning faster?

Speaker 1: 18:00

Well, and I think that brings up a good point, oh, go ahead.

Speaker 2: 18:04

No, no, no, I was gonna say, and the highs and lows aren't as big as they were at the beginning. You know 100%, it's more stable. Right, I'm getting clarity all the time, but it's not often. I mean, there are occasionally these big points of clarity, but you, over time, it levels out a little bit more. But we're experiencing it all the time and something can trigger big ones.

Speaker 1: 18:32

Well, I think when you're taking on something big again, sometimes that chaos can come, even like I've experienced recently, where it's like, oh my gosh, this is bigger, bigger chaos than I've experienced before, because it's a larger step that I'm looking to take. But I was telling you before, like sometimes I have to coach myself and this is what you know. I think the friction is so good and so important and some things that I would say to a client that I remember to say to myself is like be super curious in the friction or in the chaos, Pay attention, Notice what's rubbing. I mean like lean into it instead of run away from it, like move through it, because sometimes there's something really big and important happening here.

Speaker 2: 19:29

I would argue that there's always something to take from it.

Speaker 1: 19:33

Yes, I think you're right. I think you're right, whether that means the idea is going to, or the thing is going to come to total fruition, or it's going to go another direction. But either way it's likely something better.

Speaker 2: 19:47

Yeah Right, feelings are really valuable tools and I feel like my job is to help people understand what, to be able to trust their feelings. So we have these gut feelings, but without knowing if those feelings are triggered by our values not being in alignment or being in alignment right. So when our values in our alignment, we feel passionate, we feel fulfilled, those feels like the high points of clarity. They come when we feel aligned right, when these ideas, the path, that everything feels like they're aligned to our values and our intention. And when we're in chaos, we're experiencing feelings like that. That's what triggers us.

Speaker 2: 20:32

It's feelings that don't feel good and, you know, we're not clear. We're experiencing doubt and fear, and those feelings are not something we want to ignore. They mean something. They mean something really important. But is it because we're out of alignment or is it because our you know, ancient brain or lizard brain or limbic brain is just telling us that, listen, this is scary, this is, you know, not safe, you know? Or is it really our values? And so I feel like my job is to help people understand what's driving feeling for them so that we can trust it. I think that's it's so important to understand that about yourself.

Speaker 1: 21:22

Well, and I think the tool you described of like separating the like what's happened and like you know the story or the fear, the like the spin around what's happened, you know, like what's changed, yeah, Do, you do? That as a writing process, Like do you write that down or do you kind of think that through?

Speaker 2: 21:41

No, it's just a thought process. I I'm awful at journaling. I really need to work with you on that, carla. It's okay, I have notebooks full of stuff, but that's all ideas, you know, it's all the.

Speaker 1: 21:56

That's journaling, melissa, that's journaling, hello. Notepads full of stuff but I do not journal, that counts.

Speaker 2: 22:05

That's funny, by the way, well, but I don't work through in writing, I don't work through those fears and that chaos, and I should, I really should. I think it would be really valuable for me. For me, though, it's a, it's kind of a thought process.

Speaker 1: 22:21

Yeah, so I mean, just as we kind of transition into giving people some more ideas of like what has helped us when we get in this cycle and and I think writing, writing is a really I mean, it's been an incredible tool for me to like calm the noise in my head so that I can actually get clear. And you, you and I were talking about something that I was grappling with and you said, you know, you asked me some really good questions, like you know what, what would help you get more clear right now? And I think you also said, oh, you asked me something else. Do you remember? Hmm, I don't remember exactly what it was, but the question helped me to it. Like it just like stilled all the noise, to be like oh, was it that.

Speaker 1: 23:19

I think it was like what does this chaos mean for you right now?

Speaker 2: 23:22

Right.

Speaker 1: 23:23

And I said my answer to you was I just need to slow down. I just need to slow down. I don't have all the pieces yet.

Speaker 2: 23:31

You immediately answer.

Speaker 1: 23:32

It's kind of like yeah, right, and I need to trust that those pieces are coming and they're going to come in perfect timing. But my hyper achiever self and that urgency wants to force it and push it and that energy is not needed here and I think that that's, you know, just as a takeaway for people. Like, one thing you can do is whatever that is for you, whether it's writing, whatever you need to do to get quiet that kind of stills the mind, to really lean into your internal compass, your intuition, whatever that is for you, to just listen, like what is needed right here and now, and you will have the answer. A lot of times where I look to other people to give me that, but I love when people point me back, like you did, to just say you know, trust that, go with that.

Speaker 2: 24:24

No, yeah Well, and I can tell you with you know, with my clients, when that comes up, you know, and I ask what's changed here? Because what happens is they come in, everything's changed, everything is, you know, I don't know anymore, right, and it causes other pathways to come in. That kind of trigger, as you said, in the survival model, is what usually happens. But I really need to put something out there right now that earns money, that you know, and so they want to abandon these points of clarity that they had before on the pathways that they laid out, that were in full alignment and that created this passion for them, and it will trigger this chaos, will trigger this desire to go down these other paths that they think will bring them, you know, either faster revenue or, will you know, will be more in alignment with you know, more clients. They don't, you know, it's not as narrow anymore and it does.

Speaker 2: 25:26

It triggers survival model behavior. If you don't kind of pause and really ask yourself hold on, what's really changed here, right, and the answer usually is not much right. It's usually some little thing that that caused this little spiral into chaos and, as you said, you know, when you slow down and you get curious about it instead of reacting. So much of this struggle in entrepreneurship is, I think, a reaction to that chaos that's not necessary, actually the energy that we waste on it.

Speaker 1: 26:04

Oh my gosh, the energy we waste. Yes, I, years ago, I found this. You said something. You said you know we get in this place of like I don't know. I used to live in the land of I don't know a lot and I found this little backdoor access. I would, I would say, when I felt like I didn't know, I would say to myself, if you did know, what would it be? And that's like kind of brings you in the backdoor to that inner knowing place. So that's super, super helpful. But I think another thing that's helpful here is our values, and I've seen you, when we've been working with my clients, like you'll ask people how can your values kind of lead you out of this? Or will you speak to that a minute?

Speaker 2: 26:53

Yeah, you know we tend to think of. You know our values are it's just what's important to us but they're, they're really our superpowers. And you know we have values that we aspire to and we have values that we're partial. You know that we embody some of the time but we're not perfect about. And we have some values of ours that we do really fully embody, that we really live, and and they tend to be our superpowers when it comes to overcoming this chaos.

Speaker 2: 27:22

And we often forget about it because I think we are we dive into survival model, into that survival mode and all those old patterns and stuff show up and if we can kind of step out of that and get curious and use the tools that we have, those values that we really live well are the easiest pathway to kind of gaining the learning that we need and pulling ourselves out of that chaos so that we can kind of evaluate what's changed. And it's different for everybody and that's the, that's the really amazing thing with it. But yeah, our values are. They play a lot of different roles in our life and our business, can you?

Speaker 1: 28:16

pull like maybe one of your values that helps you navigate through the chaos, like as an example.

Speaker 2: 28:23

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, one of my top values is, well, you know, personal growth always plays a role in that, because I'm always driven to learn something new and do something new, which can also we have our values come with this kind of really positive superpower side and they come with, sometimes, this not so great side. Entrepreneurs were curious about a lot of different things and you know it can take us down these paths of what if I do this, what if I do this, what if I do this? Right, that can create overwhelm and that can throw us into chaos. So it can cause chaos for me. But it also is what triggers me out of it, right, it's that get curious, what's really happening here.

Speaker 2: 29:15

So a big superpower for me in that personal growth space is, like you said, you know, when you're built, can I get quiet here and figure out what's actually going on? Right, what am I really experiencing? But innovation and creativity is also a really big piece of that for me as a value, and oftentimes when I'm experiencing a big piece of chaos, it's because I don't know how to do something right. I have a vision for something and I get to this point where all of the pieces between X and Y are, I can't see how they're all going to fit together. I can't see the full pathway to what I want to accomplish and then I experience that doubt. But where that innovation and creativity value come in are how can I get to point B and solve this problem Right? So it allows me to say this is a problem that I can solve and I utilize that value and break it down into smaller pieces. I guess I should say yeah, I think this is.

Speaker 1: 30:34

you just actually made me realize that I think it's well last night. So I was feeling in the chaos and my brain wanted to think my way through it. Just work harder, do more. You're going to get the clarity Right. But my heart knew that wasn't true or real. What I really needed to do was relax my brain. My husband had something he wanted me to watch and I'm like, yeah, this is perfect. Sometimes a show or a watching something on YouTube can really just relax my brain and get me in a completely different state. So I think that's another takeaway, for people is like relaxing your brain is often. I think that's why people in the shower get that clarity or get those ideas yeah, like when you're relaxed. So, as much as we feel like we need to force and push through, often the opposite is actually the antidote or perfect thing in that moment.

Speaker 2: 31:36

Well, can I bring up one point to know that you and I and this came up before, but you and I both have a really high value for responsibility or accountability. We call it something a little bit different, but it's very similar and it's a high value that's likely contributing to the chaos, right, and if we can identify that, right. So we're feeling that pressure, that sense of responsibility and accountability, and it's triggering this feeling of this has to happen for X number of reasons. Right, and probably some part of it is triggering the survival model. Right, it's my responsibility to do this. People are counting on me. Right, we start to feel that pressure.

Speaker 2: 32:20

We can recognize that that's a value that's not supporting us right now. Right, being in alignment to our values and their best expression is really what we're going for, and recognizing that our values sometimes show up not in our best interest and their best expression, that they can contribute to the survival model, in some ways they can trigger us into chaos. Right, we have this natural ability that's connected to our values to react and to judge and to do things that aren't how we want them to be expressed. So not all of our values help us get out of that chaos, or at least in the expression that got them in there. But recognizing that like, oh, this is where my values may conflict with each other and I want to utilize this over here to get me out of it. How can I really counteract that? Because that's not really where I want to go.

Speaker 1: 33:27

Well, and if you're listening and wanting to know more about values, melissa was on another episode called Living your Values and she gave some ideas for getting started with your values. So if you want to go back to that, but circling back to what you just said, I think that's why it's so helpful to have people in your circle right. As another takeaway of like, how do we navigate this clarity chaos, it's like having people in your life Like you, melissa. Today that was just like you spoke some questions into my heart that just helped me kind of settle and get more clear. And so having a coach, having friends, having colleagues, having people in your life that can help you find your own answers and kind of lean into that has been such a powerful thing for me.

Speaker 2: 34:17

Me too. Me too, and you know I get that clarity from you, Karla, when I talk to you. And yeah, it's really nice to know and to get insight into somebody else's operating system, you know, and to help reflect things back to them and recognize it, and yeah.

Speaker 1: 34:42

And having people in your life that remind you of, like who you are and what you're up to Because you actually did that for me today. Like you're like no, this is important for you, I've seen it and like having that reflection. People in your life that will reflect back to you when they've seen you in these moments of absolute clarity and conviction and passion for what you're doing. Having people that will remind you of that is so vital.

Speaker 2: 35:10

Yes, oh, 100%. And you know and I can't more than a handful of times that's happened. You know where you run in, almost run into somebody. You know who was around you when you were at that. Really, you were really clear and they heard the passion and you know, and you tell them what you're working on and they're like huh, is that really like where is the? You know, and they kind of steer you back, you know just reflecting that and mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: 35:40

Well, and being open to those little signs that you know, like it's like you get that testimonial from somebody or that email, like right in that moment where you're in the chaos and you like needed that little reminder, right? Or like you and I talking today and I mentioned a book and you're like, oh my gosh, okay, I was just thinking about that book, I think I need to actually go get that. Yeah, that was so crazy, Right? Those little signs, those little breadcrumbs along the way, they're little gifts to help you stay on this path. Don't let the chaos cause you to shrink or pull away or really doubt the whole thing, right?

Speaker 2: 36:19

Embrace it instead. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 36:22

Yeah, yes, any last thoughts that you want to wrap up?

Speaker 2: 36:28

I think that's it. I mean, I think it's embrace it because it's a natural part of it and the reason we experience it is to gain the learning that we need to continue to experience that clarity. That it's just, it's part of the process and if we can embrace it and work through it and use, use it to, as you said, sit in it and understand why it's happening, you're going to accelerate your personal growth, right, and you're going to accelerate the clarity that comes next. I really, truly believe that.

Speaker 1: 37:06

Yes. So Melissa and I are giving you permission today to go do that thing that is on your heart to do. You don't need anybody else's. Go ahead on that, follow it, trust it and go ride through the chaos with it, because there's something really amazing on the other side of that. Melissa, where can people find out more about you and the good work you're doing?

Speaker 2: 37:32

My website is probably the easiest place, and that's humanityinkworld. They can find me on LinkedIn as well.

Speaker 1: 37:42

Awesome. Thank you everybody for being here. Melissa, we will see you again soon. Thank you so much for being here and being in my life.

Speaker 2: 37:52

Oh, thank you. This is so wonderful. Thank you for having me here.