I'm Rocki Howard and I'm not only your host, but I am proud to be Chief Diversity Officer at SmartRecruiters.
In honor of Black History Month, this is the second episode of our four-part Black Leadership Series sponsored by SmartRecruiters. Today’s guest is my colleague, my friend Brandice Sills-Payne.
Brandice Sills-Payne is SmartRecruiters' Customer Market Manager.
Brandice has a Bachelor's Degree in Music from Loyola University New Orleans and she brings her creative and smooth jazz background into Corporate America and to this podcast as a masterful storyteller.
In this episode, Brandice tells her story of feeling like the lone soldier, the importance of intersectionality and allyship, and shares powerful examples of the "tax" she has paid for being a black queer woman in the workplace.
To quote Brandice "at the end of the day, no matter who you are, you want to be seen and you want to be heard". Today, we will see and hear Brandice as a Voice of Black Leadership.
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Connect with Us
I'm Rocki Howard and I'm not only your host, but I am proud to be Chief Diversity Officer at SmartRecruiters.
In honor of Black History Month, this is the second episode of our four-part Black Leadership Series sponsored by SmartRecruiters. Today’s guest is my colleague, my friend Brandice Sills-Payne.
Brandice Sills-Payne is SmartRecruiters' Customer Market Manager.
Brandice has a Bachelor's Degree in Music from Loyola University New Orleans and she brings her creative and smooth jazz background into Corporate America and to this podcast as a masterful storyteller.
In this episode, Brandice tells her story of feeling like the lone soldier, the importance of intersectionality and allyship, and shares powerful examples of the "tax" she has paid for being a black queer woman in the workplace.
To quote Brandice "at the end of the day, no matter who you are, you want to be seen and you want to be heard". Today, we will see and hear Brandice as a Voice of Black Leadership.
Our Sponsor
Connect with Us
Welcome to the Voices of Diversity podcast. I'm your host Rocki. Howard, I identify as she/her/black/C ristian/GenX/wife/mom. Thes attributes are dimensions of m diversity of who I am. They are part of my unique value prop sition and how I add value to t e world. And I believe it is t me for the world to hear the tories of people like me, thos who are underrepresented in c rporate America. The miss on of this podcast is to huma ize diversity, one story, one onversation at a time to shar the impact on those who iden ify as being unde represented as they go thro gh life in corporate Amer ca. I hope you will listen to t is episode with open hearts and pen minds. As today's gues s tell their story. They are voice of diversity. Febr ary in certain parts of the glob is known as Black History Mont. In acknowledgment cele ration, and in partnership with our sponsor smart recr iters. We will be hosting a seri s of chats with just a few of s art recruiters best and brig test black leaders. If you are ot familiar, smart recr iters is leading the modern tale t acquisition suite market and am so proud to be smart recr iters Chief Diversity Offi er ready to replace your old chool ATMs and help your orga ization achieve hiring succ ss. Then check us out at smar recruiters.com This is the seco d episode of our four part seri s. And today's guest is my new riend and colleague Brandice Sil s-Payne. Brandice Sills-Payne is SmartRecruiters Customer arket Manager. She has a achelor's degree in music from oyola University, and Brandice brings her creative and smooth jazz background to corporate america and to this podcast as a masterful storyteller. In this episode, Brandice tells her stor of feeling like the lon soldier. She emphasizes th importance of intersectionalit and ally ship, and she share powerful examples of attac she's paid for being a blac queer woman in the workplace. T quote brand is at the end of th day, no matter who you are, yo want to be seen, and you want t be heard. Today, we will hea branded sales pain as the voic of black leadership. Well, goo morning, good afternoon. Goo evening, wherever you are in th world, and welcome to the voice of diversity podcast of all o the ones that I am recordin this month. I've really looke forward to this. Because Brandi e and I have had the opportuni y to really get to know each oth r from day one. And we've become a little bit of partners in cri e actually, she's responsible f r keeping me in line most days. o I'm excited to have a differe t kind of conversation through t e podcast with you today. So we' e gonna just do me a favo, introduce yourself to t e audienc
Brandice Sills-Payne:Yeah, I'm Brandice. I run custome marketing at smart recruiters. identify as she her quee Christian wife, old soul
Rocki Howard:Ah, the old soul. I knew it. I think old souls recognize old souls, right?
Unknown:Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Rocki Howard:You know, look, let's let's unpack that a bit, right. Because I'm going to I'm going to start with one question. I'm going to go to another place. There's lots of conversations right now on how to categorize people, right and how we identify. And so you hear all of these things about epic Boehm bipoc underrepresented minority, like how do we and and you know what, in every situation, we can always ask people individually, how do you personally identify? So I'd love to have your thoughts on does one of those category shins work? Do one of them resonate with you? What do you think is the answer to all of this?
Brandice Sills-Payne:Um, I think I have to preface this by saying I have been running away from labels my entire life. Because I feel like the minute you put yourself in a category, people then decide who you are. And, you know, when you talk about diversity, it becomes a sort of necessary evil as a path, you know, towards progress or towards opportunity. But even all the things I just mentioned as, like how I identify, I would have never said that five years ago. But now I've found my own kind of healing and path and like who I am, and I can embrace it in a completely different way. Which kind of gives me a sense of self identity that feels right for me. But when it comes to large categorizations of people, I think we have to be careful. And I know that it's not going away, because it's the way that we can process especially, you know, in the workplace, in corporate and just kind of how we view people and how we say like, you know, this, this group needs to have this resource because of x, because we've defined them as x. So I don't know, I think it's a I think it's a tricky situation. But I think you have to, you have to be careful, you have to be honest about what your own take is on how other people have categorized other people, and how that makes you interact with them.
Rocki Howard:I did think that I love what you said about I've been running from labels all my life, because once you put a label, there's something that comes with that, right? And I also think we want to make it simple this person is black, this person is queer, this person is this person is she, and who's to say one is more important than other when it comes to my identity and how I identify right? And so I'm curious you, you mentioned several things when you talk about the dimensions of your diversity, and that you wouldn't have said that five years ago. It's complex enough to be a woman, it's complex enough to be black, it's complex enough to be queer, any of those things independently have their own implications. I'm curious about how much more complex Do you think it is, when you walk through the world with multiple dimensions of diversity, and maybe you'll share a little bit about how you got comfortable with how you identify? Yeah, I
Brandice Sills-Payne:mean, intersectionality, I think is the part of diversity that needs to be looked at the most. Because it isn't any one thing and it's, it's, it's not something I think that we can deduce and quantified down to a single, you have no idea or a single definition. And so, five years from now, leading up to now, I really started to think about, you know, we talked about code switching allow, just bring this in really quick, we talk about code switching. And so, in some places, you know, I'm in a really comfortable space around a bunch of other queer people, like, I'm queer first, right? And, and, and that's my, that's my switch. In that moment, I'm around a boy, you know, my family, or you know, a lot of a lot of black friends, you know, like, like, that part comes out to the forefront. But when you have to mix all of that together, especially when you're around people who don't look like you, then it becomes a little bit more complicated. And that that's like the nut to crack. Right? intersectionality is like the thing that needs like the most visibility, the most attention, the most conversation, because we aren't any one thing. And so I think that just however you walk through your life, for me, personally, I didn't want especially working in, you know, more prominent white spaces. I didn't want anyone to see me as any one thing. And so I was just a blank slate. And I realized that I was also saying, like, I feel like no one knows who I am. Or I feel like no one really gets, you know, like these other parts of me because I'm not representing the metal. All right, I'm showing up as, you know, a plain piece of bread.
Rocki Howard:Not just
Brandice Sills-Payne:plain old. I'm trying to fit in, you know, and trying and trying not to alarm people and trying to be disarming and trying to make sure that I'm welcoming spaces because there's no friction like, like, if you're if you're around branded, like everything's gonna be cool. And then I realized I was just completely losing myself in that. And so now I'm like I am all of these things make up who I am. And while I want people to understand all the dimensions of just me personally, you know, depending on who you are in my life and also other people There's just so much value in knowing who you are, you know, not saying that there's a lot of safety in presenting who you are all the time. But knowing it for yourself, you can show up differently. And you know, put some peanut butter on the bread.
Rocki Howard:Girl, please, maybe even a little jelly one day, who knows? Right? You know, and, and, and there's a lot to say for that, like, I feel the weight not only from you, but I feel that way of having to come into a workplace and be disarming, right? So that I don't rattle the cage, etc. And then to your point, then you're frustrated because people don't know you and, and there's this energy you spend, subconsciously, about navigating your career while you're navigating how you show up. So talk to us a little bit about your career, tell us what you do for a living. But but help us understand how you got here. What was the path?
Brandice Sills-Payne:Yeah, well, let me also say that if you go in and you rattle the cage, then they'll start to pick up parts of you that are the reason why it's because she's black. It's because she's a woman. It's because, you know, so that that that just further complicates things as well. And it
Rocki Howard:and then it, it becomes that confirmation bias, right? This is where confirmation comes, bias comes in. Oh, because she did this. She did that because she's a woman. Oh, she is this aggressive because she's an angry black woman. I always knew that. And then whenever you show up, it confirms a pre existing bias. And this is what those of us who are underrepresented feared the most in kind of opening up instead of just saying this was based on this situation, or this is who I am as a person, it becomes part of a larger bias. And then it exasperates right. Yeah,
Brandice Sills-Payne:yeah, I mean, people of color have been erasing themselves in spaces since the beginning of however long we can talk about this. Right. It's time out for that now. Because there's real consequences around, you know, how we interact with people to a certain degree
Rocki Howard:there is.
Brandice Sills-Payne:And and that's something that's really encouraging about this time, right, is that we can have these conversations and people are, are curious and wanting to, to know and change and have conversations and create spaces that you know, that don't reflect our past to a certain degree. Yeah.
Rocki Howard:For real. Talk to us. How'd you get where you are? Talk to us about Japan.
Unknown:It's a curve, but it's curves and stair steps and all kinds of things, right?
Brandice Sills-Payne:It's underground through the water was the grandmother's house we
Unknown:got to was smart recruiters. Right. So great. Forget where I land. Yeah.
Brandice Sills-Payne:Yeah, so I'm actually started my background in I wanted to be an audio engineer out of college, and I was a musician growing up. And so I immediately, you know, went to school in New Orleans and went to Loyola went back to Atlanta. And I started working in recording studios, I was really lucky that I had a really good network of people. And so working with some really prominent spaces with some really big artists, and that was like, I've arrived, I'm like, 22, like,
Rocki Howard:this is feeling it.
Brandice Sills-Payne:Yeah, I'm like, this is it, this is this is gonna be the thing. And then I quickly realized, it's a very cutthroat business, and you're probably not going to make any money for a really long time. And so I went into corporate, and a lot of people just didn't understand why they were like, you know, you're on, you're on tour, or you're doing all these cool things, like, you know, you're traveling, and I was like, it's just not sustainable. And so my mind went to, you know, looking 10 years from now, 15 years from now, like, I need to build other skills that I can mark it. But it was a great stepping stone. And so I literally took at like 20 for a little bit took an entry level job at a at a corporate audio visual company, working actually out of the CNN Center in Atlanta. And just soaked up all I could. And from there I was, you know, becoming a pretty prominent, like event producer, doing corporate events, you know, done the Superbowl a couple times, like just kind of moving more toward moving more toward just kind of lead production roles and seeing other mentors and people and being like, okay, that person isn't sweating. And so I need to figure out what their job is and do that. And so a lot of it was just, just just seeing examples and just kind of striving toward that. And eventually, I mean, that that brought me to LA and to the to the startup environment and working. You know, in I mean, just literally anything you could imagine I mean events for 5000 people, you know, running doing podcasting like this Any sort of event production that you could think of, I've probably done it theater, I used to tour with a magician, like, any way that I can get in front of a production I was I was going to do it and build skills. And then I was like, this is also unsustainable.
Rocki Howard:And again, you're having tons of fun, you just slip in things like, Oh, I did the Super Bowl, you know, like, you just slip in those those those events. But to your point, you do get to a point where you're like, is this sustainable? Right, so then that's just another pivot. So tell us about that pivot. Yeah, I
Brandice Sills-Payne:mean, that that pivot went into, and this was working around a lot of like, angel investors, and VC people, and, you know, startup founders, and kind of seeing the way that they, they thought about, you know, building equity building businesses, like just things that would carry them through. And I know, you know, most startups fail, right? I've seen it firsthand. But I was just like, Okay, what can I What can I learn to do that, like, that works within this ecosystem, it's also there's a lot of money in Silicon Valley. And, and that brought me to, to marketing. And I was like, you know, there's a story to tell, for each one of these, these companies, there's a story to tell for each one of these people. And I'm a really good storyteller. And I always loved writing. And I always love, you know, just kind of presenting the full picture. And having people understand it in a way that wasn't like, you know, snake oil. And, and, you know, all of
Rocki Howard:those are seals. Yeah,
Brandice Sills-Payne:yeah. Yeah. Like staying away from that, like the plague. Um, and so, I'm skipping over a lot. But I ended up moving to San Francisco and working for one of the largest LGBTQ professional productions or conferences in the world, and like, the whole ecosystem was just connecting people to jobs, connecting diverse people to jobs, connecting queer people to tech jobs. And I was just really, really fulfilled in that work. And that kind of brought me into like, the HR tech space, you know, working with companies like Google and Nike, and Spotify, and like, like working with their recruiters and their ta teams, to find diverse talent. It just kind of opened my eyes to a whole new world. And like, I was, I felt like the lone soldier along this road for so long. And now I'm like, surrounded by people who are also like, their own lone soldiers and their own, you know, ecosystems and environments. But, you know, we can make a difference here. And that was, I don't know, 567. That was a while ago. And, and yeah, and that that just kind of kept me in HR tech. And, you know, I worked for another startup. And, you know, that was really fulfilling. And, you know, finally, Alison, as smartrecruiters found me at the HR tech conference, at a party nonetheless, looks like you'd have to come work as
Rocki Howard:part you don't. We're not doing a lot of it right now. But we like a good party. Right.
Brandice Sills-Payne:Right. Yeah. And so now I'm here. And, you know, still the same mission?
Rocki Howard:Yeah. It it's interesting that you say I felt like the lone soldier because so many times I think we are the one or the only. And so I'd love to hear from your point of view and your career path has been fascinating. So you've been in a lot of spaces, and I'm sure had a lot of experiences, right? Can you tell us about potentially some of the challenges you had in making it to where you are today that you think are directly correlated back to being a woman or being queer, or being black? And those dimensions are diverse? Like how did they impact your road?
Brandice Sills-Payne:Yeah, the first time I came up against someone interacting with me in a certain way, because I was I think it was a combination of being a black man, a woman and I look like I'm 10 years old.
Rocki Howard:Yeah, yeah, I
Brandice Sills-Payne:was I was I was actually I showed up to Super Bowls in Miami was 2000 I don't know the one Princeton 2007 2005. And, and I show up and I'm one of them, the Production Director. So like one of the main stages and in that environment, you know, you have a union crew motion your crews are either they're all white, or like, you know, they're peppered with some people of color, but they're mostly mostly predominantly white. And I show up and the foreman for the union was like you're late. You know, like, you need to get with your group like what you know, like we don't this is not how we behave. What We're on a gig this size and, and just going off on me. And I'm looking at him like, this is actually happening, like you have no idea who I am. And when you're in those environments, no one's dressed up, like everyone is like shorts and a T shirt and like it's hot outside, you know? And I looked at him and I said, Who do you work for? Like, who are you? I'm the foreman for the union, you know, and I want to make sure you get assigned to the right spot, because we need to get to work. And I said, Well, I'm the Production Director for your entire crew. I just say psyches eyes get all big. And he's like, first he didn't believe me. And because I hadn't put my badge on yet, either. And just assuming that like this little black girl from wherever she just rolled up from, could not be in charge, there's no way I
Rocki Howard:would have never occurred to him, like that just never crossed his mind.
Brandice Sills-Payne:never crossed his mind. Yeah. I had a little fun with it. But it made for a very awkward conversation. And eventually, he came back and he apologized it and the only reason I think he apologized, I don't think he was genuinely sorry. I think that he wanted to make sure his job wasn't a job. So totally just self preservation. And so that opened my eyes, because before, like I told you, like I was just trying to show up, I was just trying to show up, you know, I was really good at my job and just kind of just, you know, come in and be the best that I am and just do my work. And then I was like, oh, like, I'm gonna have to come up against this, especially when you start to do bigger and bigger and bigger things. You know, I'm an entry level job, nobody cares. Yeah, if I'm in my place, and an entry level job,
Rocki Howard:if you're in your place, and and that has a hope we could do a whole, maybe we'll come back and do an episode about what being in your place means because especially when you're a person of color, when you're a woman, you feel that you understand that, in other people's minds, there is a place for you, there's a box for you. And that that can be that can be tough, we'll just say that.
Brandice Sills-Payne:It can be tough, and it can also be dangerous.
Rocki Howard:It is dangerous. And a lot of connotations to that. I can imagine that I used to deem that the flicker for people who would talk to me on the phone and make assumptions because I talk like a white girl, because I speak correct grammatical English, and then would show up to meet with me or interview with me and people would not be so bold enough to go, you know, let the draw draw, but you would see the response. And I used to call that the flicker, for those of us who have been around before social media, where you can see who everybody is before you talk to them, because it never would have occurred that the voice that they heard matched up to your point with this little black girl, right? Mm hmm.
Brandice Sills-Payne:Yeah, exactly. And the second time that it was, I mean, there's been so many stories, but the second time that it that it really affected me, and I was like, This isn't fair, is you know, as a black woman, you have to be a superhero. to even be seen as just doing the basic average, when you're doing so much more. You know, and I'm at a place where, you know, revenues of spending is down, you know, budgets are being managed. A war awards are being given out, you know, and honestly, I'm just gonna say it like, a lot of it dudes due to the work that I was doing. And when it came time to get a promotion, my boss said, Oh, we don't have there's no budget for promotions this year. No one's getting a promotion. like everyone's just getting their regular merit increase. And he and I were both at the director level, we were running this place. And, you know, I'm like, I see I see the good in people. I'm like, there's you know, okay, great. Like, that must be the case. Oh,
Rocki Howard:no problem. I'm a team player.
Brandice Sills-Payne:Yeah, okay, fine. Not that's not the case. I got a 3% merit increase. He got a 15% increase. And basically, just like, the boys club, like, just it was all just kind of funneled to him and shortly quit after that. There's nowhere for me to go.
Rocki Howard:There's nowhere for you to go from a career perspective. But how do you recover from that? Like, how do you have trust in an environment where they lie to you? And where there's obviously equity issues, like how is there a way to recover from that?
Brandice Sills-Payne:Personally, I mean, I got lucky I became the VP of selection selected another company after that which was successful.
Rocki Howard:It's always the best revenge.
Brandice Sills-Payne:I started making double the money. Um,
Rocki Howard:but within those environments, I think the the question I'm asking is for people who want to be good allies, and they see these situations happen within their own workplace, when something like that that is so blatant happens, is there a way to, quote unquote, fix it can that can can you really ever recover when you're on the other side of that?
Brandice Sills-Payne:I mean, if you don't, if you, if you quickly find out that you don't really have power in a situation, then you in my opinion, you have to take care of yourself. You know, you can bring all the bills, you can say all the things, but if the hands in the pot, and people pulling the strings are also the ones that are screwing you over, you know, you have to know when it's best for you to leave, if that's possible, and everyone is not in that situation. And it's not possible for everyone. And it's tough and and, and that's one of the hardest things about, you know, being a person of color in the workplace is sometimes your options are just not there. And your your personal life and the things that you need to sustain take precedent over, you know, self preservation, you know,
Unknown:it's nice to have a roof over your head in it.
Brandice Sills-Payne:It's nice to be able to eat, it's nice. It's cold out here that heats on like, you know, and
Rocki Howard:those are the choices that people have to make sometimes. Right, they have to put aside their highest need for basic needs. Yeah, it's important for people to hear that.
Brandice Sills-Payne:Yeah, I mean, there's a spectrum, right, like, I'm specifically talking about corporate America where like, you know, there, there is a level of privilege in that, like, whatever your salary is, or, you know, I'm not, I'm not, you know, there's, there's a spectrum, but, but there, I've just heard so many stories, that people just having to suck it up. Yeah. You know, and, and, and the, the kind of, not everyone's having to do that. Right. Like, my white counterpart over here is not having to, like sit in most cases in this situation. And say, like, like, should I say something? Like, if I say something like, Am I gonna, you know, because that space, that that, that that level of raising? My voice isn't for me, I should just be happy to be here. Yeah. And, and not wanting to rock the boat.
Rocki Howard:Wow. Let I want to, I want to tap into that. Because that's it's a really good question. When I think about in that story that you just shared with us. I would bet that that person who was appear to you, when they were having conversations with you would have absolutely said, I'm an ally, I'm down, I don't see color, you know, this is my partner, etc. But when it came down to it didn't really take the opportunity to say, No, this isn't fair. If you've got 15% Brandis and I were in it together, this should be half and half. So I'd like to ask you, for people who really want to be allies. What advice would you give?
Brandice Sills-Payne:You know, with the Black Lives Matter movement, I think that a lot of a lot of people have realized that. As a person of color. This wasn't this is an issue of the heart. Right? Like it's not as cut and dry as just corporate policy and things like that. Like you have to change people's hearts and minds. And I think the biggest thing that came out for me was hearing other white people say, like, we created this problem, and we can fix it. And, and we and we have like there's nothing for me to do, to a certain extent, right? Like, get together and figure this out. But to be an ally, like those less, you have to raise your voice. Like, if you have the power and the privilege, you have to use it. If you say you care, because it's coming to me and saying oh man, like that was really like this,
Unknown:fellas bow in the corner.
Brandice Sills-Payne:Yeah, the lunch room, right? No, I mean, raise your voice in those spaces where where you have influence and use your influence and use your power. And at the end of the day, like you're probably going to be okay. In my experience, the people I know that have said like, Hey, we need to change this. They've made it out. Okay, and they and they've made they've made a difference, right. And that's the way to do it. Also have those conversations in the lunchroom, you know, because people need to know that people care and they see you and they, they understand that like, you know, things need to change. But when you're sitting in those rooms with the people who who their eyes are not open, you know, there has to be a voice in the room. And it's a lot more effective when the voice looks like them.
Rocki Howard:Appreciate that. I can't believe we're almost just about 30 minutes in. So, you know, here's always the last question on this, this podcast, and I want you to take us out here. Our platform is about giving a voice to individuals who are underrepresented, right? That's, that's our mission here. So as a voice for the underrepresented today, what would you like to say to people of what it's like to go through corporate America as a person who's underrepresented?
Brandice Sills-Payne:I mean, it can be a lonely road. But what's nice now is there there are places of support, like you have to have support, you have to have somebody out there that you can talk to. And, you know, a lot of people are talking to right now and feeling like like mentorship is not a thing anymore. And, you know, we've always done this, since the beginning of time is rally around each other and spin and, and find support around people who who are going through what you're going through. I think that, that that's really important. My experience has been the opposite of that, you know, I've kind of traverse this road alone. And, you know, by the grace of God wouldn't have been strong enough and resilient enough to continue to make progress. But as an underrepresented person. I mean, if I'm being honest, like, it's just hard. It's just really, really hard. It's exhausting. It is infinitely taxing, you know, in so many different ways. And I don't think people really understand that, because we're so good at showing up and making it look easy. And it is not easy. And I think, you know, naming that, and visibility around that is so important. Because at the end of the day, you know, no matter who you are, you want to be seen, and you want to be heard. And we don't want to sit around and cry together and you know, businesses business,
Rocki Howard:I don't want to sing Kumbaya.
Unknown:Maybe just,
Brandice Sills-Payne:you know, but people everybody wants to be seen, and everybody wants to be heard. And, for me, if, if if someone had just like said like, it wasn't just me seeing it, like if I have some validation that like, like you're doing a really hard thing. You know, talk about mental health a lot. It's really, really important. And it really, really affects people. And if you're in a space and you think that, that someone you see a person of color, and you see that they're the only face in the room, then our allies need to know that there's so much more to that story than what we're then what we're what we think it is or what we what we imagine it is for that person. And we need to see that we need to acknowledge that. I love that.
Rocki Howard:Thank you so much. Thank you for what you do. Thank you for who you are. Thank you for sharing this space with with with us today. Thank you for being a voice of black leadership. I appreciate you.
Brandice Sills-Payne:Thank you for having me.
Rocki Howard:Thank you for listening to today's episode. The mission of this podcast is to give a voice to diversity. I believe that the interactions between all voices, minority and majority can change the narrative of how the world communicates. And by changing that narrative, we can change the world. Join our mission to humanize diversity, one story, one conversation at a time by sharing our episodes, especially with those who are privileged and in positions of power. Help the voices of diversity podcast, be a catalyst for courageous conversations, and most importantly, for change. I'm your host Rocki Howard