Doctor Dave Caudel the Associate Director of the Frist Center for Autism and Innovation and is on the Advisory Board of Jobs for Humanity. Dave has both a Master's degree and Ph.D. in Physics.
In this episode, Voices of Diversity host Rocki Howard speaks to Dave as he helps us understand the instead of getting help and support, individuals who are on the autism spectrum are often greeted with shame and aggression due to lack of understanding.
Dave said "It was easier for me to get my Ph.D. in Physics than to learn how to have a conversation with a stranger"
As a father of three and an autism advocate, stay tuned for an episode full of insights as Dave is a voice for invisible disabilities.
Resources
The Frist Center for Autism and Innovation
Connect with Us
Doctor Dave Caudel the Associate Director of the Frist Center for Autism and Innovation and is on the Advisory Board of Jobs for Humanity. Dave has both a Master's degree and Ph.D. in Physics.
In this episode, Voices of Diversity host Rocki Howard speaks to Dave as he helps us understand the instead of getting help and support, individuals who are on the autism spectrum are often greeted with shame and aggression due to lack of understanding.
Dave said "It was easier for me to get my Ph.D. in Physics than to learn how to have a conversation with a stranger"
As a father of three and an autism advocate, stay tuned for an episode full of insights as Dave is a voice for invisible disabilities.
Resources
The Frist Center for Autism and Innovation
Connect with Us
Welcome to the Voices of Diversity podcast. I'm your host Rocki Howard. I identify as she/her/black/Christian/GenX/wife/mom. These attributes are dimensions of my diversity, of who I am. They are part of my unique value proposition and how I add value to the world. And I believe it is time for the world to hear the stories of people like me. Those who are underrepresented in corporate America. The mission of this podcast is to humanize diversity, one story, one conversation at a time. To share the impact of those who identify as being underrepresented as they go through life in corporate America. I hope you will listen to this episode with open hearts and open minds as today's guest tell their story. They are a voice of diversity. Dr. Dave Caudel is the Associate Director of the Frist Center for Autism and Innovation and is on the advisory board of Jobs for Humanity. Dave has both a Master's degree and a Ph.D in physics. In this episode, Dave helps us understand that instead of getting help and support, individuals who are on the autism spectrum are often greeted with shame and aggression due to a general lack of understanding. Dave said "it was easier for me to get my Ph.D in physics than to learn how to have a conversation with a stranger". As a father of three and an autism advocate stay tuned for an episode full of insights as Dave is a voice for invisible disabilities. Welcome to the Voices of Diversity podcast. And I am so excited to have my Jobs for Humanity colleague Dave here joining me today and Dave I'm going to turn it over to you, people get tired of hearing my voice can you just introduce yourself to us?
Dave Caudel:Yeah I'm Dr. Dave Caudel. I am a physicist by training and I am an autism self advocate. I was diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome when I was in my 30s. And I also have three kids who are on the spectrum. Well they're kind of young adults now because now they're ranging an 18 year age 18 to 26. And I am the Associate Director of the Frist Center for Autism and Innovation at Vanderbilt University.
Rocki Howard:I love that I didn't realize you know we've got kids that are about the same age and my kids go from 18 to 20, I just have you bested i have four instead of three if you want to trade and share we can we can negotiate something.
Dave Caudel:I have two of mine adulting out in the world which is a really big deal particularly for people on the spectrum and a third one that's about to an adult.
Rocki Howard:Oh wow adult that's pretty cool and maybe we'll get a chance to talk about that because you you certainly have the perspective from yourself and from your kids so I'd love to hear that. Tell me you know I'm a big believer in multiple dimensions of diversity so can you do me a favor and tell me how you identify?
Dave Caudel:Yeah so I identify as a man. I suppose the stereotypical man. I don't identify so much as white but that's that's an autism thing we don't really feel like we connect or are a part of a group in general. Okay. But when i'm standing with a group of white people they might treat me like I'm one of their own and they might feel like I'm part of the herd but I don't.
Rocki Howard:But you don't? Okay
Dave Caudel:And so ironically enough like when I was going to college I was more drawn to like black colleges or areas where I was, it was painfully obvious, I was the minority. If I was the only white person in the room then we were all on the same page. Everybody knew I was different, I knew I was different and for some strange reason that made me feel more comfortable.
Rocki Howard:I like that. It is an interesting way to look at things.
Dave Caudel:Yeah it's it's it you know one of the one of the things that a lot of us on the spectrum kind of suffer from to one degree or another is honesty is extraordinarily important to us. And if I feel like I'm by accident deceiving you, it makes me uncomfortable. And so the more I feel like we're all on the same page the more comfortable and relaxed I get.
Rocki Howard:You know Dave I have to say, I wish more people suffered from that where honesty is extremely important to people. I think we could do with a little bit more of that in the world. You know what let's let's kind of dive into that piece before we talk about your career, you taught me something in some interactions that we had had and you taught me that autism is considered to be like the invisible disability. Because people look at individuals on the spectrum and they assume that they're normal when in reality people who are any point of the spectrum your brain works differently. And what you just said kind of gives us a point of view. Can you continue to help educate us a bit? Tell me what that's like, tell me what that feels like.
Dave Caudel:And this is also a good time to highlight the fact that it is a spectrum. And that confuses some people, it confuses a lot of people because they'd like everyone to fit in nice neat boxes.
Rocki Howard:Oh we like boxes don't we?
Dave Caudel:We develop stereotypes where everybody in a particular group is the same and and that's not true in general in life. Life is much mor complex and messy than, that but particularly in autism ther is a spectrum. And the curren the current way of thinking abo t it is that there are three l vels of the autism spectrum. Ok y. I'm what's considered a le el one. Okay. A level three i someone who might be entirely n n verbal or minimally verbal, extremely limited vocabulary a d limited ability to communicat verbally. And they might have oderate to severe intellectual d sabilities and sometimes it's p rticularly in the old days t is is what people thought o is autism, these extreme cases where these folks are probably going to be on assisted living the rest of their lives. They'r going to be unable to work ful time that's the that's that's t e other side of the spectrum. A d then a level two is just a mi between those two. Okay. So it ecomes a visible disability for the level threes, people wi l see those folks interacting wi h the environment or thems lves and they can immediately tell something is off or some hing is different about this pe son. So we call it a level. We call it an invisible disabili y for predicting for people on m end of the spectrum. My range o the spectrum because at a gla ce we use language, we can be erbal, some people like myself are hyper verbal. I love words a d I love to use them and I l ve complex sentences and stuff. nd so people can make the mistak of thinking that because I can e so expressive and I can use my words so well and I don't see to be suffering from any moder te to severe intellectual dis bilities or anything like tha they can assume that I'm jus
Rocki Howard:That you're normal, right? like everyone else and I see th world like everyo
Dave Caudel:That I'm normal and that's why we call it an invisible disability because when they see evidence of somebody like myself struggling, they in their minds imagine well what would I be doing if I was doing that well I would be a jerk or I would be selfish or I'd be obstinate or something like that therefore you must be a jerk or obstinate. And so you know rather than getting some help and accommodations we get a we get a lot of aggression and pushback and people trying to shame us and put us down. And they don't realize that what they're asking us to do is extraordinarily difficult for us. Two things are absolutely true, earning my Ph.D was one of the hardest things I ever did. Physics I mean I loved physics with it with a I still do is with a white hot passion. When you study something hard and complex but you really really love it and makes studying it possible. And I was able to get my Ph.D in physics and physics is such a huge part of my life but it was one of the hardest things i've ever learned. But it was easier for me to learn physics than it was for me to learn how to have a conversation with a stranger
Rocki Howard:Wow! Dave that that's a big deal. That that statement right there I just want people to pause and think about it. It was easier for you to get a Ph.D in physics than to learn how to have a conversation with a stranger. Wow! Wow! Tell me this though because you do have this Ph.D in physics and you have accomplished amazing things at Vanderbilt, can you tell us a little bit about your career what you do for a living right and then help us understand a bit about how you got there?
Dave Caudel:Yeah so it was a really strange. It's actually not that uncommon for if you look at any autistic adult about my age, who is successful. Has a successful career and is living a life that is by any standards is like the kind of life that most human beings are pursuing. You know, where you're getting paid a decent wage, and you have the kind of house that you want, and you can afford the kind of things that matter to you. And, you know, you know, the dream, the American dream that we're all kind of chasing, you know, over 80% of people on the autism spectrum are unemployed or underemployed. And that includes people with master's degrees or PhDs. But if you find those of us who are successful, are there a lot of similarities in our path. We we, you know, in many ways, I'm just like everyone else. Most people on the spectrum are just like anyone else in so many ways. But in some few very important, very fundamental ways. Our brains are wired differently. And so we use language differently, we think differently, we see the world differently. And so what that means any system that you build to, like serve the public, like education or something like that, you build it. So it is effective for the largest percentage of your population possible as you should. If you build an educational system that accurately educates 90% of the population, congratulations, you need a prize or something that's an amazing system. But for people like myself, what this means is we find ourselves in a world that's not optimized for us. So what works well for the masses, can often not work well for us, and in some instances can actually be harmful for us. And because there's so few of us, we are about 2% of the population. There's still not a lot of systems and stuff in place to help us get on board and help us fit our brains into this world that we find ourselves in. And so much of our lives is spent trying to figure out how we fit into all this. Trying to figure out how to understand people and try to figure out our own limitations and our own struggles, and much more importantly, our gifts. Because like all human beings, we each have some talent or something, that that that is a real strength for us. And so if we can if we can somehow identify that strength, and then find a way to get a job associated with that, you know? so I had a ton of careers growing up. I was a I was a soldier. I was a journalist. I was in public affairs and media relations. I was an editor of a magazine and I also served as an editor for an online college course at TSU right after I got out of the military. I worked in truck sales and car sales, because I wanted to learn how people think better. And I wanted to learn how to have a conversation without people turning on me or getting angry for, from my perspective, no reason at all.
Rocki Howard:Yeah.
Dave Caudel:And I worked in the corporate world. And I worked everything from customer service, all the way up to loss prevention. And it wasn't until my 30s that I tried all these jobs. And in most of these jobs, my weaknesses I was constantly getting beat up for and my strengths were kind of trivialize or minimized. So I thought let's give this college thing a try, see what that's all about. So in my 30s, I got into college, and that is when I discovered science, and that's where I discovered physics. And for the first time, I found something where all of my strengths were celebrated. And all of my weaknesses were all that's not a big deal. Yeah, the weaknesses didn't matter so much to people. And I really, really thrived in that environment. And and that was the first time I really found a place that fit. And I would have been an experimental physicist the rest of my life, and I would have been perfectly happy at it. But it was during that journey that I also got my diagnosis. And and I reached a whole new level of understanding about not just myself, but other people, when you have a better idea about what makes you different, that helps you to understand other people now that you have the context of that difference. But much more importantly, I found out I had a people. And and the first time I met a group of people that were on a spectrum, I heard my life experiences coming out of the lips of another human being. Wow. Was the most profound, I equate it to like, it was like a religious epiphany. I mean, it was it was it was so powerful, because it was the first time I felt that level of connection to other human beings and is the first time I felt that instinct of this is my tribe. These are my people. And I had never felt that before. It also helped me have a greater appreciation for why people seem so obsessed with grouping up in their little tribes and supporting each other. That didn't make much sense to me before. From my perspective, everyone was alike and everyone was the same. It used to drive me nuts that people were trying to treat each other as aliens just based on the melanin count and their skin or something that did not make sense to me. But when I had my own people, and I felt all these, like powerful emotions of, you know, these are my folks, and I want to take care of them and I care so much for them. And oh, look, they're happy. I'm so happy for them. You know, all these things that come with like a family and so when I got my Ph.D, the day i got my PhD, right after the ceremony my boss came up to me and said i'm opening up a center to help autistic adults find meaningful employment and I want you to be the director and I immediately said yes
Rocki Howard:Wow!
Dave Caudel:And I mentally crapped myself because I had just spent 10 years preparing to be a physicist and then on the day I get my Ph.D I
Rocki Howard:Forget it I'm not gonna do that i'm gonna do this. But that's where passion comes in and purpose isn't it?
Dave Caudel:Yes and not only like my three kids are on the spectrum, they're not on the same part well one of them is. They're they represent different parts of the spectrum by and large and I'm also obviously worried about what kind of world that they're growing up into
Rocki Howard:Absolutely
Dave Caudel:But also these are my people. And not not just not just people who are autistic anyone who is neurodiverse. You know even someone who is neurodiverse whose brain is wired in such a way that we don't have a name for it. And that person doesn't have a people that person will always almost be like unique in the population. For the first 30 years of my life, I was that person. Wow. So you bet I feel a lot of empathy and sympathy for this person and I want to I want to help that person find the accommodations and whatever they need to be successful and happy in life. And that's what we that's what we all deserve. And so I've been doing that for over three years now working at the Frist Center and I love the work so much. And I learned so much not just about the advocacy itself and all the programs and all the different elements that are kind of working towards this goal of getting people the accommodation stuff they need to be successful but I get to talk to so many amazing people. And get perspectives and get their their viewpoints and the more I talk to people the more I want to talk to more people and the better I feel like I understand my species. In a weird sort of way in the last 10 years of sort of like really I feel like I've truly reconnected with my species. Just through understanding them and their perspectives and I love that I'm going to do this for the rest of my life
Rocki Howard:Oh my gosh that's so incredible! So tell me as someone who stands on the outside right I'm not part of the tribe I'm not part of the species. I want to be right so how does someone who sits outside of the spectrum and you spend your days helping people get the accommodations they need et cetera from maybe an accommodation standpoint but just from a general relationship standpoint, give those of us who are privileged and in positions of power and in positions of allyship a point of view of what we can do to support. I think the most critical point is that people need to have an open mind. When they're interacting with somebody look if you if you're in the street and you bump into like let's say a hypothetical autistic person and that person says or acts in such a way that might be rude or might might put your social hackles up or that was inappropriate or something like that you know the our instinctual reaction which is where we're using the reptilian part of our brain is to get offended or upset or angry. We should use the rest of this brain all this processing power to challenge and question our emotions not reinforced them and double down on them. And so I say you know if you encounter someone who says something that's odd and and you have a knee jerk instinctual reaction to jump to the conclusion that this person is being a jerk that this person is being obstinate or whatever label we have to say that this is a bad person, argue with yourself a little bit. They could be neurodiverse they could be different maybe they were able to say that in such a callous way because they don't realize how hurtful those words were to you. Or they don't realize the tone. You know I mean they could be they could absolutely be a jerk and you ask some follow up questions and interact I think you can kind of figure that out yeah you're just a jerk let me know but but an autistic person for example if if you ask you know do you realize a lot of people would would would be offended by the way you said that we're likely to say no. And we might say that's silly or that doesn't make sense to us because the reason we can so easily trample other people's feelings is because if you treated us the exact same way
Dave Caudel:You won't be bothered and you wouldn't be offended Yeah and so how do you how do you figure out what is offensive and what's not? Most people just go well if it's offensive to me, I shouldn't say to other people. And that's a good rule of thumb. Treat other people the way you want to be treated. It's a good rule of thumb if most people are wired like you. If most people are not wired like you, treat people the way you want to be treated is terrible advice and will get you in a lot of trouble.
Rocki Howard:Wow and you know what so dave there's a there's another really huge nugget there because we've all grown up that that's the golden rule. Treat others like you would want to be treated, right? But to your point, those of us who really want to be allies and we want to be inclusive leaders and we want to move past our privilege, we need to think about not treating ourselves like we would want to be treated but treating someone else like they need to be treated and meeting them where they are.
Dave Caudel:So to finish answering your question, that's a lovely segueway to get me back on track i got a little off track
Rocki Howard:That's okay, that's okay
Dave Caudel:Is is that there are a lot of people you said normal the some autistic individuals themselves they refer to neurotypical. Although some people tend to get a little offended by that because humans are complex multivariable creatures calling you a typical person just reduces you into like just a faceless mob. I prefer the term neuro majority.
Rocki Howard:I like that , okay you've taught me something new so neuro majority.
Dave Caudel:Yeah which means you probably you're probably different or unique in a number of ways, but in general, your mind your thought patterns and the way your brain works is probably similar enough that you have a common basis of understanding to be able to interact with most people with little difficulty. That that's that's what I mean when I use the term nuero majority. So there are a number of people who are in the nuero majority who have learned about autism and have autistic friends in their life and autistic loved ones in their life. And they have great relationships, and the key is is that they were a little open minded and they were a little patient. Over time once they figured out this person prefers blunt and direct questions or abrupt blunt and direct language they were able to more effectively communicate. They were a little bit more careful about thinking about what they say to make sure they say exactly what they mean. And then when someone says something that could come across as rude or offensive, you know they recognize this person is not trying to hurt my feelings. If it's something particularly egregious the best friends are the ones who recognize this as a teaching moment. I have a moment to explain to this person you might want to find a better language for that because a lot of people would take that the wrong way. And those of us who have good social camouflage or what we like to call masking which is where we walk and talk and act as if we're a normal person that masking is so critically dependent upon people walking us through these kinds of things. Don't say this, never mentioned that, always be, you know reword this in such a way where it sounds more like this. I mean that doesn't make much sense to us but we recognize that we we don't want to hurt people
Rocki Howard:Yeah. People angry. And that's it that's a huge thing that i think you've just taught us. So while you're saying we can have an opportunity for teaching moment, I think Dave what you just did is you open the door and taught us that it's okay to say "look that thing you just said this is how someone in the neuro majority might perceive it" and then we are being a good ally. It does not work if we don't say anything and speak up. And of course do it out of love and out of respect right. I want to I do want to ask you a question right because you spend your days advocating for people on the spectrum and you spend your your days making sure that accommodations are made and helping people transition into a career. So I want to ask you about this right. What do you feel about companies who have hiring targets and they have targets to hire very specific um under represented individuals I'd love to hear your point of view on hiring targets.
Dave Caudel:Yeah I'm not opposed to the concept of hiring targets. What i'm opposed to is the idea that hiring targets are going to fix the problem. And I'm speaking from the perspective of neuro diversity. But when I think about it I think this applies not just to neuro diversity but any minority. You know if you set and we'll use autism as an example and it's a bit of an extreme example but i think it holds across the board. If you have a company that sets a target that we have to hire 10 autistic individuals. If you don't educate and change the culture. If you don't get people to understand these folks and understand their perspectives and how to effectively communicate. And to be mindful of their perspective, just sticking them into an environment that hasn't adapted to them it's not going to work. They're going to feel like outsiders. There's going to be a lot of misunderstanding. There's probably going to be a lot of antagonism and stuff and that's just not going to work. And I can easily imagine that applying to any number of minorities, not just autism. You know that I think it's more important to change the culture. And I think if you get the culture properly broadened, I feel like those people are just naturally going to get hired. You won't need a target. If they're more inclusive in their mindsets and, and more respectful of other cultures and other viewpoints. Then, when they're hiring, and they're interviewing and stuff, you know, those interviews, they're going to go better and people gonna have more sincere connections. And I feel like, I feel like targets might not not even be needed at that point. The problem that we have is tribalism run amok. And it's in our nature. And let's, let's be fair, 10,000 years ago, tribalism which what is what allowed our ancestors to survive, surviveday, it was very useful pre history. And keeping our species alive. It's just the modern world, our greatest strengths that become our greatest thorns, that our greatest weaknesses. And we're getting clobbered with all our tribalism. And we need to be mindful of that. We need to recognize that only wanting to hang out and hire people who see things the way we do, and agree with us on everything and look like us. And and yeah, that might feel good to have a bunch of yous around you to kind of like connect and all be in sync. Maybe that that feels really good. But in terms of like solving problems and getting the work done. You know, I'll give you a perfect hypothetical, let's say you got two groups, and each group has 10 people, and Group A, all 10 people are alike. They all think alike, they all have the same experiences. If you give them a problem, they're likely to give you 10 copies of the same solution. Yeah. So you don't have a lot of diversity and solutions there. Now it might be a good solution, it might not. Another group has diversity of thought. So it's going to have diversity of solutions. Not some of those solutions might be silly or unworkable, but some of them might be truly brilliant. And outside the box. It's not hard to imagine which one of those groups are going to thrive with novel or challenging problems that come up. And we see this you know, one of the particularly like, in the tech world, there's a lot of tech companies that are hungry to hire autistic talent right now. Because they look at Silicon Valley. And they see all the millionaires and billionaires who are on the spectrum. And they go, oh, I want me some of that, I want me some of that outside the box thinking. You don't have to go to an extreme, you don't have to get a genius to get some outside the box thinking.f you have a diverse workforce in your company, wome of those people from time to time, their insight is going to have a brilliant or outside the box solution. And then you have to be open minded. And everyone has to feel comfortable to bring their their solutions to the table. So you can really crowdsource and really make the most of all this cognitive brain power that you have in a company.
Rocki Howard:I love that. And that's exactly people will hear me often say that diversity does not live in a vacuum of equity, inclusion, and belonging. And you just brought that whole concept to life. I can't believe we're down to our last five minutes. So I've got another question I want to bring back from earlier and then we're gonna wrap up. But you talked about having, you know, three kids on the spectrum, when you think about your greatest hope for them. What What is it?
Dave Caudel:My greatest hope for them is I want themto find a pathto their own success and happiness. Whatever that might be. You know, I want them to figure out how to fit their brain into this world in such a way that they can thrive and be happy regardless of what that would be. You know, from my oldest that was art. And, and, you know, for my youngest, or for my middle child, he's still figuring that out. He's going into the Air Force, because like I went into the Army and I found that was a good pause button to like earn a paycheck and earn some learn some valuable life skills while you're talking.
Rocki Howard:Thank you for your service too.
Dave Caudel:Oh my pleasure. It's it's he's going into the Air Force, maybe for a maybe for a few years, maybe for career like he doesn't know yet. But maybe if he then decides he wants to go to college or pursue something he'll have like the GI Bill and stuff. So it's a good it's a good stepping stone while he's trying to figure himself out. And my youngest is in her second semester of college and she started as an English major. And more recently, she switched to a Pysics major because she's like a little female clone of me.
Rocki Howard:You have a mini me,
Dave Caudel:mini me and I'm one of these Rare individuals, I don't have to wonder what I would have been like if I was a woman.
Rocki Howard:Because you can see it. I love that. I love that. All right, close me out here, Dave, you know that our platform is about giving a voice to the underrepresented. So I, I want you to stand in that place right now. And I want you to tell people what it feels like to walk through the corporate world as an underrepresented person and bring that home for us. What What do people need to know?
Dave Caudel:Yeah, so I can, I can start off by saying today. First of all, I caution people, particularly businesses that are, we're negotiating and trying to get artistic talent in there. They see how affable I am, they see how good I am at a conversation, I'm able to walk up to anybody today and start an engaged conversation. And I'm pretty good about figuring out whether they want to continue the conversation or whether I need to end it or something, you know, all these, that that was a tremendous amount of work and effort. And I have been studying the human species most of my life, with an intense desire to understand them, so I could effectively communicate with them. And so I caution them what you're seeing today, it took me 30 odd years to get where I'm at today. You can't assume that of an autistic person walking off the street, most of them in the autistic population. I'm probably in the top 5%, and my ability to communicate accurately with other people. Most folks are going to struggle much more than me, most folks are going to be much more confused than me. So myself today, I feel like I could just about going to any environment and adapt to it. Because of all of the things I learned and I should not be the gold standard and should not be the threshold. And that's probably true. of the 20% of the 80% unemployment or 20%. For However, by hook or crook they've figured it out. Most most of my people have not figured it out and they're getting the percent. Yeah. The other 80% they need a lot of help. And and some of them are further along than others. But they're definitely, you know, I'll tell you this, the companies that we train, are the companies that have a proven track record of working with autistic talent. When I talk to the supervisors that work directly over that autistic talent. The two most common things I hear from them is first, when they when they learned that they were going to be supervisors of autistic employees. They were scared. Yeah, they did not know what that meant. They think they assumed it would be complicated. They assumed there was a lot of ways that they could potentially mess up and, and do real damage to these people and stuff. And so they were terrified of what that would mean. After they'd actually started working with these people. And after they figured out the basics of how we think and how we use language. They were blown away by how easy it actually was to communicate with us. And and laughed at their own fears. Because it actually turns out we're quite easy to get along with. And once you figure out our stick, once you figure out our angle, we're the easiest people to talk to in the world. And then the second most common thing I get is they're so blown away and amazed at how hardworking and loyal we are in their company. And that always trips me up. And I'm like, they live in a world where so many people don't understand them. And people are yelling at them randomly, for from their perspective, no reason at all. And then suddenly they encounter someone who gets them who's good at communicating, who treats them as a human being with dignity and respect. Oh, of course,they're loyal. Oh, of course, they're hard working. They recognize how rare and precious that is. Will they ever find that again, they don't know. It boggles me that you're amazed that they're loyal and hardworking. It's the most obvious thing in the world to me.
Rocki Howard:I love that, Dave, I'm gonna have to have you back for another episode so we can dig deeper into this. I so appreciate you being here. Thank you for being a voice of autism today, a voice and I appreciate you so much.
Dave Caudel:My pleasure.
Rocki Howard:Thank you for listening to today's episode. The mission of this podcast is to give a voice to diversity. I believe that the interactions between all voices, minority and majority can change the narrative of how the world communicates. And by changing that narrative, we can change the world. Join our mission to humanize diversity, one story, one conversation at a time by sharing our episodes, especially with those who are privileged and in positions of power. Help the Voices of Diversity podcast, be a catalyst for courageous conversations, and most importantly for change. I'm your host Rocki Howard.