"Because I think when you're in the environment, of trying to move up the ladder, you're trying to progress and you're just going as fast as you can. Sometimes you don't see those challenges until you step back, and you reflect on it."
Voices of Diversity host Rocki Howard speaks to guest Marcus Sawyer who is a 15 year HR Tech veteran and Founder of EQ Community. A platform that is focused on empowering multicultural professionals with access to connections, careers, and community.
Marcus shares his story, as he reflects on his experiences, shares his three C's of diversity, and talks to us today as a Voice of A Multinational Black Man.
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"Because I think when you're in the environment, of trying to move up the ladder, you're trying to progress and you're just going as fast as you can. Sometimes you don't see those challenges until you step back, and you reflect on it."
Voices of Diversity host Rocki Howard speaks to guest Marcus Sawyer who is a 15 year HR Tech veteran and Founder of EQ Community. A platform that is focused on empowering multicultural professionals with access to connections, careers, and community.
Marcus shares his story, as he reflects on his experiences, shares his three C's of diversity, and talks to us today as a Voice of A Multinational Black Man.
Resources
Connect with Us
Welcome to the Voices of Diversity podcast. I'm your host Rocki Howard. And the purpose of this podcast is to humanize diversity, one story, one conversation at a time for listeners to understand the significance and the impact that racism, bias and inequity have on real people. Our Voices of Diversity guests share the challenges we the underrepresented face in the corporate world, the media's eye, and the overall world we live in. I believe that through sharing, listening, understanding, and committing to take positive action, we can together impact the diversity narrative, one story, one conversation at a time. And by changing the narrative, we can change the world.
Marcus Sawyerr:Because I think when you're in the environment, of trying to move up the ladder, you're trying to progress and you're just going as fast as you can. Sometimes you don't see those challenges until you step back and you reflect on it.
Rocki Howard:Marcus Sawyer is a 15 year HR tech veteran and founder of EQ Community. A platform that's focused on empowering multicultural professionals with the access to connections, careers and communities. Marcus helps us learn as he reflects on his experiences, shares his three C's of diversity, and talks us today as a voice of a multinational black man. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, from whatever part of the world you're listening from. And welcome to the Voices of Diversity podcast. I am so excited about today's episode. Our guest is just a phenomenal individual who has got some incredible new things that are going to change the world in which we work in and we live in from a diversity perspective, and he'll have a chance to share that with you today. But as we get started, hey, Marcus, can you introduce yourself?
Unknown:Firstly, Rocki Thanks for having me. My name is Marcus Sawyerr. I have been in HR tech staff and recruiting for the last 15 -20 years, and really excited about embarking on a new journey to help more multicultural people get access to opportunities. So thanks for having me today.
Rocki Howard:Yeah, no worries, I can't wait for you to tell us a little bit more about that today. And before we get started, you know, I believe in multiple dimensions of diversity. So can you do us a favor and tell us how you identify.
Marcus Sawyerr:So I identify as a black male, and somebody who is passionate about helping people progress. From a religion standpoint, I believe in God. And I believe that if you help each other out, good things will happen.
Rocki Howard:Oooh, say that, again, I think most more of us need to identify with that simple statement. If if you just help other people out good things will happen. You know what? I have a question that I want to ask you. And I specifically want to ask you this question because, of course you have grown up in another country. And now you're here and you may be able to give us an interesting perspective on this. So right now we hear the terms BAME, EPIC, BIPOC, underrepresented minority and every version there of...and I recognize that we all need to categorize people when we're having a conversation. You can't always maybe potentially ask somebody how they identify. But I'd love to have your thoughts on what is the right thing? Is there one that resonates from you? I just love to hear your thoughts.
Marcus Sawyerr:Yes. So my perspective on categorization and definitions is that the power in definitions is really taken by the person that defines. So for me personally, you asked me to start What do I define myself as an I said a black male, and that's probably the right way for people to understand of where I'm coming from. But when you think about definitions, everything's human made. And do we need to be categorized when we have conversations or discussions? Because when I'm talking to my sisters or my mom or my friends, I don't categorize them any way other than my people. So for me, I'm not that big on those terms and terminologies, minorities sat makes people sound small, underrepresented makes you sound like you're not, you're not being taken care of. Okay, maybe that's true. BAME or BAME is just another acronym. Black, actually, like the color black. And I think black sounds strong. So I probably prefer to call myself black. But I also like the fact that there's an opportunity to have different personalities, different personas, different ways to operate. So I like multi. So multicultural is something that I think about and talk about quite a lot. But yeah, that's my view may be a little bit different from other people's.
Rocki Howard:Yeah, I'll be honest, as I'm listening to how people answer this question, it's not much different. It's really not much different as at all. Um, look, let's kick it off. You told us at the top that you've been in HR tech, staffing, recruiting for a very long time. Tell us about your career. Tell us what you do for a living now. But lead us up to how you got there?
Marcus Sawyerr:Sure. So I had started, actually, a long time ago wanting to be a professional footballer. And I spent majority of my school years in school boy years playing football so I was at professional teams.
Rocki Howard:So wait a minute, you got to tell the American audience that this is not NFL football, this is soccer football.
Marcus Sawyerr:No, yeah, the real football that you use your feet with that one that you like, kick the ball with, that one. So anyway, I've got family and cousins who always berate me about that. But yeah, so I started out wanting to do that for a long period of time. And done the whole school boy got scholarships played for professional teams, I was captain for my county was I played Full Sail as well, which was kind of England school boys. And then I got to a point where I was at university, and I decided to drop out. And I was on a football scholarship. I dropped out because didn't really like the course. And I was coming home because I was from from London. So I was traveling back and forth, and I decided to get a job in a gym. Because I thought, okay, if I get a job in a gym, I can continue playing sports and get better. But I went to the gym and they didn't have any jobs that were associated to actual physical activity, they only had sales jobs. So I said, Okay, I'll take this sales, sales gig. And then I started kind of getting excited about getting people gym memberships? So I was doing that for a while. And then I moved up to corporate gym membership. And I said, well, I'm gonna see if I can break these sales records. So I had me and a couple of my friends that we work in together and I broke all the sales records for this gym in London. And I thought for I'm sure I can make more money than 13,000 pounds a year. So let me see if I can find a role. And that was when roles were started. We're still in newspapers, but being advertised online. So there was this kind of way of advertising for roles online. And I remember telling my mom, I was like 21 - 22 at the time. And I was like, I'm gonna go for this job. And it was like $23,000 at Career Builder.
Rocki Howard:And it was it was oh my gosh, oh, yes, big money.
Marcus Sawyerr:I just increased my money by like 10k. And I was thinking to myself, I'm going to make it. And anyway, I applied for this role. They were trying to really change the way that people advertise for roles and positions and move that online. And that was when I got into Career Builder's inside sales. So I started making 120 calls every day and then worked my way up. I got promoted every single year. I was there for 10 years now I ended up running a staff and a recruiting division. And then moving to the Adecco group responsible for M&A Digital Innovation, be CEO of some companies and yeah, and moved to America, moved my family here. And that was yeah, I think I was well over 15 - 16 years. And that was it.
Rocki Howard:Wow. Okay, that's really cool. It's a cool story. And I am interested, especially again, because you have experience living in multiple countries, and how Europeans see diversity and how Americans see diversity is often different. And we find those challenges and how far the heads are buried in the sand are sometimes different and challenging, too. So i would like for you to talk to us a little bit about challenges that you've had making it to a senior executive level now being the CEO of your own company what challenges have you had a long that career path that you feel are directly related to you being a black man.
Marcus Sawyerr:It's a good question because I think when you're in the environment of trying to move up the ladder you're trying to progress and you're just going as fast as you can sometimes you don't see those challenges until you step back and you reflect on it. And I go back to sports and i look at look at that environment and I think that when you're really going for it your heads down and you're just going as fast as you can. Now when i look look back some of those things would have probably been down to the type of roles that I was hired into. I could argue that maybe I didn't have the experience but then also then when it came to progressing and getting opportunities, I progressed based on my numbers which was which was great but then those management roles and those senior opportunities, I remember somebody got promoted before me and I'd killed by numbers much more than that and it wasn't just okay are you good sales person can you move into a manager position but i wasn't even considered. And so I think I don't know if that's because I'm a black man but I think that that was probably because of my culture and the culture that I came from and where that person was potentially coming from as well. I think also as far as challenges, as you start to get into some of the more the corporate and executive environments people look at you and don't expect you to be in that room, from the get go. And I've had I've had that I mean I've had scenarios which I wrote down and I had to write them down myself and I kind of kept this journal of incidents that have taken place. And just to reflect on them and figure out how I would deal with them the next time that they happen because sometimes when you situation it's hard to deal with them. I mean people have said to me hey we're going to go skiing and yeah but we might have to see you in the ski because you're black. Okay that's been in the in the work environment. I've had scenarios where I have been in situations and I've come offstage and people said oh that's Eddie Murphy after I've come offstage and I've been speaking and this is in the corporate environment. I've had scenarios where I've been in meetings and people have said I wouldn't hire people in that area while I've been sitting it is only good for diversity and inclusion it's only good for black people. So I've seen all of this and heard all of it and I haven't necessarily brushed it on the carpet. But I'm quite a measured individual for those that know me and so it seems like it's noted is duly noted. And that that was kind of how I played sports and how I, I compete. Sometimes you see things I don't I don't react immediately but I measure it and I build it up and in it as I said you do good things to good people good things will happen. In their scenarios a lot of the things that I think that people have maybe done overtly or covertly like that's been noted duly noted. And I use that as energy and I use that as fuel to drive. So yeah many many different scenarios that I could probably label.
Rocki Howard:The best revenge is absolutely successes absolutely So let's go back because it sounds like you certainly have found yourself in some situations where you were the only one or the first one. Can you think about a time where you were the only or you were the first and help us understand how that felt how it felt to be in that circumstance how it made you feel the challenges that that come with being the only or the first.
Marcus Sawyerr:There's been many situations where I'd been the only offer especially in a staff and environment. And as an example, go into conferences you'd go to a conference you'd look around and you'd be the only black person that would be there. Then I'd go and speak at conference and I'd be the only black person that would be speaking at a conference. To be really honest how it made me feel when I was the only one there was like wow okay this isn't necessarily a representation of of the world I wonder why that is. So I was curious to know more I kind of know why it is at a high level. But really what do these people think? And do they think that this is the right environment? When I'm speaking on stage, I feel like I'm representing my people. And I got friends who aren't even in my industry. Some of them do some, they're in different industries, they do different things. But they'll message me and like, tell me on a consistent basis, I make them feel proud. And that that's really what, what what makes me want to do it. It's, it's, it's basically for my people weren't able to get there. So, yeah.
Rocki Howard:Do you feel the burden for that? I mean, I think there's a couple of ways to carry that right, it is, I'm going to be the first I'm going to be the only I'm going to make my family proud. I'm going to make my friends proud. And to your point, you are inspired by energy to go ahead and do that. And you just never really think about it. There is an emotional tax, though, that sometimes comes along with carrying that I'm in a situation to make my people proud. And more importantly, I'm in a situation where I'm seeing to represent a whole group of people. Is that a energizer for you? Or is that a tax?
Marcus Sawyerr:Yeah, I see as a privilege. My family moved over from Jamaica to the UK. And it's big, big family. And we are probably wasn't meant to be where I am. So? Yeah. I see that. I see that as a as a as a privilege. Yeah.
Rocki Howard:Yeah. I appreciate that. So look, you know, we're friends. So I'm always checking you out. And I noticed that recently, your social media pictures changed. So you changed from a job and you've changed into a new role. And your social media pictures changed. And needless to say, from my point of view, your current pictures are a little less conservative than your old pictures were. So I'm curious, do you think how you chose to represent yourself previously, is a sacrifice that you had to make to assimilate for your career?
Marcus Sawyerr:I think looking back on it, yeah, probably. So just as an example, right, my hair's always been short. And I've always had short hair. And I've never really thought but apart from when I was really young, and I used to have platts and I used to have all those different types of hairstyles as a kid. And then when I went into a corporate, I was like, yeah, you're going to go short. And I remember having a conversation with one of my one of my cousins, and I was like, how come you growing your beard, you need to chop it down, blah, blah. And he was like, debating me. And I was like, you're never gonna make it in a corporate world. He was right. Right. So I spend too much energy being clean cut, I suppose clean cut and on brand. But maybe that's helped me get into doors that I might not have gotten into. Maybe that's that's one way to look at, I didn't see it as a significant shift until I started growing my hair because of COVID. And there's no barbers around and I was like, okay, I've got one way to go here. And my dad's a restaurant. So my dad's a dread. And he's always had long here, he fought in the Olympics. So he's an Olympian. And I remember when he went to the Olympics in Seoul in 88, and he had to cut his hair off, to go to the Olympics to fight so he had to make a sacrifice, and His head was down to his back, he's grown it back now. So it's all the way down to his butt. And I'm, I come from that kind of similar ilk, and that similarity. And then I remember I had a friend of mine who was in the same industry, and he's grown his hair out, and he's got dreads. And a couple people have sent sent me a note saying, I haven't got dreds, I've just got longer hair. And they said to me, yeah, good to see you rocking the knotty dread. Good to see you doing it. And so people are watching, and they're seeing it. And I wouldn't say it was a, it was a tax, I just felt like yeah, you can be a bit more free. When you're not, when you're not only representing yourself in a company, you're representing yourself. And part of it, I think is okay. Because I think part of it is like when you're part of an organization or you're part of a company or you're part of a brand, being on brand is potentially important, but not necessarily at the sacrifice of who you are. And I didn't feel like I was sacrificing who I was. I just felt like for this company, this is that environment. I mean, if I was playing football, I wouldn't wear a suit on a football pitch, just not the right environment. So I think that there's some there's some aspects of that which you've got to take into context and into consideration.
Rocki Howard:Agree. So let's talk about consideration right. So there are people who are listening who are listening because they're allies or their leaders in corporations and they want to know how to be better right. How to move the needle forward, how to live up to some of the pledges and the commitments that have been made out there. So what advice would you give allies leaders employers who are committed to diversity?
Marcus Sawyerr:The way that I think about diversity and the commitment is in a quite simple structure. Which is surround the three c's i call it which is about connections, careers and community. So i think you have to make connections with people that are not necessarily in your network. And you have to start building relationships. You can't expect to have community without having the right connections. And if you're in an organization people expect you to invest in their careers. So for me the most important thing as well as some of the nice days that we have celebrations, months, we have black history month and people trying to get speakers and do what that's cool and that's nice. But help someone along their career. Really help someone along their journey. Invest in them and take the time to listen and not just talk about about be about it. So for me it's about acting and the biggest thing you can do it the biggest statement is you can show you got representation in your organization. So you go out and start hiring. And if you say well those people don't exist have you looked, have you really looked? Because I'll tell you they do and they exist in abundance. So are you willing to make that investment? And you have to really see diversity as a value in your organization, not just because someone's black you want to give them opportunity or they deserve it and so on and so yeah okay fair enough we go drive equity and equality. But these people people are good their high quality is actually going to help to drive your organization forward. And you got to have representation of your customers that you're serving. So think about the customers you're serving, think about the population that you're in and thinking are you doing enough to drive that forwadr? Nos of course we're all gonna always have gaps and we're gonna have balances that we can make and things that we can change. But where is that coming from? And make sure that the top down is supporting it and also bottom up so you've got push from both areas it's like a sandwich top down and bottom up.
Rocki Howard:There's so many nuggets in what you said so i want to ask a add on question and maybe a little bit of a controversial question but again i think because of your experience in the staffing world I'd be curious about your response to this. Because to your point, companies want to make as a substantive difference it starts with helping someone in their career and expanding the opportunities and truly bringing people in. And there's a lot of conversation of I can't find the talent and so we'll point it out to you. But there is a school of thought that setting goals we're not talking hiring quotas but really and truly for organization to say I want to increase my diverse population by x percent which means you've made a commitment to do so but there is a school of thought where some people think this is a bit of reverse discrimination
Unknown:Yeah
Rocki Howard:Do you have a point of view?
Marcus Sawyerr:Yeah I do have a point of view and I think that those people that think it's reverse discrimination have never been discriminated against, and i think they don't get it. And I've had the I had this conversation recently a friend actually who i like a lot. And I said come are you serious? And he was like well yeah well are we discriminating and we've got to be careful that we don't necessarily we don't get into a situation where we're giving people opportunities who don't deserve to. I said well let me tell you this one thing about recruiting, that you know and I both know is it's a sub it's subjective. It's both an art and a science. So you're making judgments every day. So what are your judgments based on? Your judgments are based on your experiences and your history. So if your experience and your history has have a certain predisposition, guess what you're going to be making unbiased since you got just level up you've got even up and that's what equity is about. So I don't see it as discrimination. I think it's like I mean I've been in meetings recently where people are like looking at pictures of people before they're hiring them, because all on linkedIn. So how you're doing that anyway? And so on the other, on the flip side, I'm seeing people that are saying, okay, well, we actually need to get more black people in. If you've got a goal in order to do that, how you're going to know what they don't identify on this, you kind of go out searching? So I don't see it's discriminatory, I see it as leveling the playing field and driving more equity, for people that need that access. Because it's been, it's been so far left, I don't mean left that mean, left or right in a political sense, but so far left for so long. that something has to change.
Rocki Howard:And that, my friends, is the difference between equality and equity. And it there is a difference. So let me ask you, this, you, you, you have this point of view. You've had a great career, you're getting where you're going. You're having the right conversations. You don't feel like it's a burden, you feel like it's it's a great thing to be able to represent your people proudly. What responsibility do you feel to your colleagues that feel like they show up in the world represented? Do you feel a responsibility back?
Marcus Sawyerr:Could you could you ask that again, I just missed that for last part of the question.
Rocki Howard:So do you feel like you have a responsibility for other people who are underrepresented to make a way for them? What what's your responsibility.
Marcus Sawyerr:Yeah, absolutely. I think that if you've been fortunate enough to get let in, to whatever world you're going into, you should try and help others also make their way as well. And I'm not that old, I'm 37 in a week or two, right? A week. And, but it's going to be less about me, and it's going to be brought my kids. And it's going to be about the path that I create for them and create for their friends and family. And so for me, you're always driving change for the next generation. And I live by an old Jamaican saying, which is each one, teach one. And that will allow you to reach reach what right so for me, it's part of the responsibility of being someone that wants to see others progress. If you want to see our progress, you got to make some changes in some sacrifice, spend time with people spend time with people that are younger than you spend time people that are o der, new learn from the old y t learn from the young. It's n t always going to be at your l vel where you earn MSA level, I mean, just your age range w ere you're going to figure h ve all the answers. There's so m ny learnings from each others t ere's and there's also another t pic, which I think is i portant, which is reverse m ntoring, right? Speaking to p ople that have got different p rspectives from different a eas will help you along. So I g t a lot out of helping people a ong the journey and u derstanding where they're g ing, because they're helping m at the same time. So yeah, p rt of that, I think is just r sponsibility.
Rocki Howard:Well, you get so much out of it, I would argue you're now the next phase of your career is all about it. You want to tell us a little bit about your latest endeavor.
Marcus Sawyerr:Yeah, sure. So I've decided to build a platform that's focused on empowering multicultural professionals with the access, so the connections, the careers, and the community, they need to be successful and thrive. And for organizations that have said, hey, I put my hand up, I want to do something about D and I or I'm already on that journey. So they've ever hired ahead of D and I, we've got someone driving that cause or they've put together a pledge. But they don't necessarily know how to get access to that network. Or maybe they know how, but they want to support others and share best practice. So really building a community to help those be successful within technology, in particular, I think digital transformation will have the most change and create the most wealth and value for the companies of tomorrow. So it's called EQ.Community. You can find it we're in iOS, we are an Android as well. But
Rocki Howard:You are on Android for those of us who are droiders.
Marcus Sawyerr:You can you download the app, you can become a member, it's a its members community, and we're really help there to help people drive change. So you'll find content, careers and connections that will be meaningful.
Rocki Howard:Well, and we'll make sure that the links are in the show notes and are available. I so appreciate you today. Before we wrap up, you know that I have created this platform because I believe that you can change the world one story one conversation at a time and I believe when you give a voice to people who are who are traditionally underrepresented it gives perspective. So as you wrap us up today I'd like for you to tell our listeners from your point of view what what would you like to say about how it feels to walk through the corporate world as someone who's underrepresented?
Marcus Sawyerr:For me personally, it feels like there's a weight and a level of responsibility on your shoulders to be the one that creates the path for everybody else. And sometimes that road can feel lonel, but always know there are people that need you to do it. And as I said for me personally, it's a privilege and I'm just glad that I'm still here today and made it as far as I can and I want to help as many people as possible do the same thing.
Rocki Howard:Well I appreciate not only what you have done but I really appreciate what you're going to do. And thank you for walking that path for us. Thank you very much.
Marcus Sawyerr:Thanks for having me Rocki.
Rocki Howard:Thank you for listening to today's episode. The mission of this podcast is to give a voice to diversity. I believe that the interactions between all voices, minority and majority, can change the narrative of how the world communicates. And by changing that narrative we can change the world. Join our mission to humanize diversity one story one conversation at a time by sharing our episodes especially with those who are privileged and in positions of power. Help the Voices of Diversity podcast be a catalyst for courageous conversations and most importantly for change. I'm your host Rocki Howard.