Voices of Diversity host Rocki howard speaks to guest Bob Athwal who is a Senior Talent Manager at Skyscanner where he focuses on Race Equity and Early Careers. He is also the CoFounder of the 1 Hour Project and The Student Job Coach.
Bob is the only person I know who is a soon to be PhD who could effectively use the movie Finding Nemo to illustrate the power of allyship. His transparency on his mother's illiteracy, his journey to authenticity and his passion to support students make this a great conversation as Bob speaks to us as the Voice of a First Generation PhD.
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Voices of Diversity host Rocki howard speaks to guest Bob Athwal who is a Senior Talent Manager at Skyscanner where he focuses on Race Equity and Early Careers. He is also the CoFounder of the 1 Hour Project and The Student Job Coach.
Bob is the only person I know who is a soon to be PhD who could effectively use the movie Finding Nemo to illustrate the power of allyship. His transparency on his mother's illiteracy, his journey to authenticity and his passion to support students make this a great conversation as Bob speaks to us as the Voice of a First Generation PhD.
Resources
The One Hour Project Instagram
Connect with Us
Welcome to the Voices of Diversity podcast. I'm your host Rocki. Howard, and the purpose of this podcast to humanize diversity, one story, one conversation at a time. I want our listeners to understand the significance and the impact that racism, bias and inequity have on real people. I want our guests to have the opportunity to share the challenges that we the underrepresented face in the corporate world, that media is AI, and the overall world that we live in, through sharing, listening, understanding, and committing to take small actions towards change. Together, we can impact the diversity narrative, one story, one conversation at a time. And by changing the narrative, we can change the world.
Bob Athwal:In certain parts of the world, you know, particularly UK, US, people who are of color black, indigenous were a minority, there is no doubt about it. There are more white people than there are us. So we need allies, people least likely to have a voice and opinion on on issues around race and equity of the gang of probably least qualified, probably white men, followed by white women, etc, etc, that the people most likely to change views and opinions of racist minds are white men, white women, and at the bottom of black men and women, other people of color, etc. And, and I think that's why ally ship is so important.
Rocki Howard:Voices of Diversity guest, Bob Atwal is a senior talent manager at Skyscanner where he focuses on race equity in early careers. Bob is also the co founder of the 1-hour Project and the Student Job Coach. Bob is the only person I know who is as soon to be PhD who could effectively use the movie Finding Nemo, to illustrate the power of ally ship his transparency about his mother's illiteracy, his journey to authenticity, and his passion to support students make this a great conversation, as Bob speaks to us, as the voice of a first generation PhD. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening from wherever you are in the world. And welcome to the voices of diversity podcast. I'm your host Rocki Howard, and I identify as she her black, Christian, jennex wife, Mom, because I believe in multiple dimensions of diversity. And I believe those things are my unique value proposition and how I show up in the world. And you are in for a real treat today, as Bob joins the voices of diversity team here. And we're gonna have a great, great conversation. So Bob, I'm gonna kick it over to you. Can you please introduce yourself to our audience, tell us who you are what you do high level your title, and tell us give us the multiple dimensions of diversity. How you identify.
Bob Athwal:Yeah, hi, Rocky. And good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Thank you for having me. I'm Bob at all. I identify myself, let's start there first. I'm actually really, I love the way you identify yourself. So I've been using that. So I am he him. I'm a Gen X. I'm a dad, and I have a son. You know, I have an uncle. So I identify myself as in many ways, actually, more importantly, I also identify as a first gen. One of those to go to university here, my family along with my siblings. And my sort of day job, I wear several hats, but I get paid to be the lead for racial diversity for Skyscanner. We're an online travel comparison site. So hopefully, you know us and you'll use us. And I look after early careers, as well as keep an eye on employer brand.
Rocki Howard:I look you definitely have lots of hats that you juggle and we're gonna dig into some of those. But you know what, I know that you've had a really varied career, you've been in academia, you've been in corporate, you're what I call a nonprofit entrepreneur. So I would love before we kind of dig into the rest of it for you to tell our audience a little bit about your career journey.
Bob Athwal:Yeah, no, thanks. Yeah, so I am quite unique in some ways, particularly in the UK landscape. And so I worked after my first degree, I spent two years elected to be the Student Union office. served as president and got myself reelected, you can only do this two years. And so there's something about sticking up for your students and sticking up for their rights and making sure things were better. So that's kind of been with me for a long time. That then led me to a huge retailer, sort of competitor of Walmart's in the UK. And I started sort of there on my malaria, my grad trade, and then went to another organization that people in the US will be familiar with, and across Europe enterprise, rent a car. And that's where I became a recruiter, eventually, I joined them, as most people do, working on the shop floor, renting cars, washing cars, you know, helping customers that were distressed and then got moved into recruiting, because I showed some interest in it. And, and that's where my HR career started. And then I've, I've worked for an online job board, which was a startup in the UK back in the early noughties, which is quite a big one now. And then went to work for one of the biggest utilities in Europe to head up all of their recruitment and development for early talent, and then made the move into higher education, spent just under eight years working in in the higher ed side looking after students and their experience in notably their careers in sports and, and well being. And then came and did a bit of consulting work. And then now here, I'm at Skyscanner. But along the way, yes, set up a couple of nonprofits that I'm very proud of.
Rocki Howard:I love that. And it is, I think it's always interesting, because when a lot of times when you're interviewing someone, you're looking for a straight line and a straight path, but some of the best experience comes from diverse experience. So thank you so much for sharing that with us. I thought something was interesting. On your LinkedIn profile, you specifically call out that you're leading race equity, of course, along with early careers. I'm really curious, is that a distinction that you chose? How does someone looks at that? How is that different than being Dean? d? I just tell us why you call that out? Yeah, I
Bob Athwal:think so. Firstly, along the way, I've also been studying for a PhD. And my research is around so
Rocki Howard:along the way. In my spare time,
Bob Athwal:yeah. Yeah, I try not to juggle too many things. But yeah, but my PhD on social mobility and, and really around the the labor market, particularly for emerging talent. And, and because of my interest in, in my research, which I'm sure I mentioned, really attacked sort of McKinsey and Company that say that the war for talent was the wolf, a very narrow talent. My employers knew I had a real interest in that, and I knew I had these nonprofits. And then tragically, as we know, the murder of George Floyd happens. And at that point, you know, I think a number of us, not just employees, but employees, and people just good people just said that Enough is enough. And so I started to have conversations with my employer. And, and I think very bravely, and rightly, we made a decision that we have a lead for dei. And but actually, we needed to do something about racial and social justice. And we wanted to have a lead dedicated to bipoc. And that's how my role became an I am part of the dei team. But of course, I've also, you know, early careers is, is what I'm an expert in, I suppose in what I why I joined. And then the brand, the employer brand pieces is something new and recent, because I think that fits across the spectrum. And it's not our saying that, you know, racial diversity is the most important thing, what we're saying is we're so behind, we have so much more work to do that actually needs its dedicated focus, and all attributes of the inclusion and belonging, family are critical. But we want to focus on that making sure we do the right thing going forward.
Rocki Howard:That is brave. And that is bold. And I appreciate the fact that you're saying we need to go back and create create equity, because there's a gap there. And we are not afraid to say we need to focus because there is this big gap. So I really appreciate that perspective. I know that you have a passion around early careers. Right. And I'm curious, is your did your passion around supporting early careers? Do you feel like that's a byproduct of your experience of being a first gen?
Bob Athwal:I think so. I think it's a it's, it's, I think it's a number of things that actually I think, definitely byproduct of me being first in my family, to go to university and you know, from quite humble beginnings, really, you know, I'm the came to along with my siblings of immigrants to the UK to rebuild the country after the Second World War. You know, a lot of segregation and racism and other things you had to navigate growing up, you know, kind of not being perhaps sometimes recognizing being smart and or being around people that seem super smart or just alien to you, because they were doing different things. And you had no idea why. And I think a combination those factors meant I've also had some pain along the way where I've got rejected from places where I perhaps, in their eyes didn't fit in. And more importantly, they probably didn't want me to fit in, and more scared of inclusion and diversity in you know, all the equity that we're talking about. So I think for me, being in a position where I could then recruit and try and set a different perspective for people to join us not based on, you know, who they knew, or the academic attainment alone, or the privilege access that they'd had. So it just started to happen in and unconsciously and then became very conscious that I started to educate the employees, I w.as working for that it's not about your GPA grades. It's not about who, you know, it's really about what you bring in that that role potential. But we can nurture and help and ultimately drive our organizations to represent the communities that we're serving.
Rocki Howard:That it makes so much sense. And I can see how that all comes together for you. Let's stay on that track a bit. And I want to have you paint a bit of a picture and you alluded to some of it as you were talking before, can you share with us some of the challenges that that you've had in making it to the place where you've made made it to in your career, you have obviously obtained? Quite a bit of success, right? Not to mention that like blow PhD you're working on on the side, right? So when you think about where you are today, and you think about some of the challenges you had along the way that are directly related back to you potentially being a man of color, and being a first generation man of color? What What does those challenges look like?
Bob Athwal:I think it's, you know, being a Gen X, I think, you know, you may appreciate this, that, you know, we had some opportunities afforded to us simply because of the people before us and, you know, other Gen X's or baby boomers that had kind of paved the way, but that didn't necessarily make it easy. And there were terms or there were things happening that we will now label as microaggressions that we've had to navigate through, you know, you know, classic things like, aren't you so articulate, you know, and, you know, where are you from? You know, these are, these are things that you've had to face often or visibly, people looking at you, when you've got a very sort of Western sounding name saying, but you're not why literally, visibly, you can see it in their face.
Unknown:You have a name for that? I call it the flicker. flicker? Yeah,
Bob Athwal:absolutely. Absolutely. And I think, you know, I think those things have just kind of been there, I think, I think unfortunately, you then chose to ignore it to a degree or you just kind of let it go over your head and just thought, you know, these people, you know, for want of a better word are just idiots. Yeah. And you just kind of let it be. But the reality is, it kind of frustrated you, you didn't realize actually unconsciously how much damage that was perhaps having, and, or how it was eroding your confidence when you were perhaps wanting to go for some other opportunity or apply for some other industry. And you just kind of felt Well, you know, they don't like people like me, so there's no point and so you self select yourself out. And I would say that my career initially was spent doing those types of things without recognizing that actually, I could have gone into these other organizations and perhaps done certain things. And I think, you know, along the way, the bit that's been really helpful is is and I recognize that recognize this now as I'm, as I've got older that the people around me that spotted something, those genuine allies, that I had no idea what was going on, but they recognize something that ruinous and then basically helped me nurture it and didn't expect anything in return the best people really. And I've tried to do that. Now I try to give more of my time I got taught really early to, you know, give something back, never expect anything in return and seek to do those favors because it will come around for you at some point and, and I've lived by that philosophy and I have to say, certainly the last 1520 years. It's been brilliant. It's been amazing.
Rocki Howard:Well, I know that you are big believer in the power of ally ship and the power of mentorship so much so that you founded the one hour project. So I want you to tell us why allies and mentorship is important. And please, please, please tell us about the one hour project.
Bob Athwal:Yeah, no, absolutely. I think I think mental ship or ally ship or coaching, you know, they're they're three different things, but they interchangeably happen. Some people do all three, some people just do aspects of it. And I think why that's so important in certain parts of the world, you know, particularly UK, US. People who are of color black, indigenous were a minority, there is no doubt about it. There are more white people than there are us. So we need allies cares. And one of my colleagues very powerfully put this into context, when it's just, it's just stayed with me. So people least likely to have a voice and opinion on, on issues around race and equity, everything else are probably released, qualified, probably white men, followed by white women, etc, etc. But the people most likely to change views and opinions and racist minds are white men and white women. And at the bottom are black men and women, other people of color, etc. And, and I think that's why ally ship is so important. The other bit around mental ship and sort of coaching why that's so critical, is you don't know what you don't know. And if you've not had access to stuff, then you are, I suppose the best way I can describe this, and this is how my PhD started. So for any of you Pixar fans out there, if you've ever watched Finding Nemo, what what's going on in the world, in my view, and I don't think Pixar intended this to be the case. But when Marlin, the dad of Nemo is going to look for him, and he goes through the jellyfish to help do Dory, he then wakes up the next scene is on the back of crush the turtle, and basically crushed the total saying, if you want to go to Sydney, you got to ride the, you got to ride the I think it's called the East ocean current or something, you know, and fast track that current to get to Sydney. Now that's years of, of experience and knowledge being passed down from toe to toe hundreds of years of knowledge. And actually, they fast track to Sydney, now that the fish may have got to Sydney anyway, but it may have taken them longer. But the fact that someone was able to stop and say, Hey, hang about what you need to do is ride this current and you'll get there really quickly, I think is what's happening in the real world. So if you don't have those types of mentors, like crush in Finding Nemo, is quite hard not to say you'll never get there. But you'll get there quicker. And I think the one hour project for me isa summarization of my working career in in education and corporate side and and startup side, just to recognize that there are so many people who are first in their families first gens, underserved underrepresented low socio economic, whichever categorization you want to use, that just don't understand how that works. And the one our project is really a nonprofit design designed to ask for volunteers to impact 1000 students, and we're going to take it us side we're going to take in South Africa, we're gonna take it Australia, we've piloted it in the UK. But the point being is give up your hour of expertise about your industry sector help a student who is predominantly a first year freshmen student, maybe sophomore, second year student, depending where you are in the world. So they recognize the interventions or the types of activities they're going to need to engage in, in order to be attractive to these types of organizations, that industry sectors rather than get to their graduation, and have no opportunities, and all of a sudden realize that because they did do a spring insight week back in their freshman year, they're now out of the game. And so the one our project is really designed to help them have an action plan and a bit of an idea of what is required. And more importantly, when we talk about professional services, or we talk about, you know, sectors such as tech that I've been in, you know, I guess you're in, you know, what does it actually mean? You know, when we talk about tech businesses, you know, what, what sits behind front end back end, what sits behind infrastructure, security, etc, etc. And really demystify that.
Rocki Howard:I think what you're talking about is so important, and I find that it is a true gap in the education system. We have trained people that if they go through school, and they get their degree, they are now set up for success. But that is not exactly the case for a first generation person. Because there's so much knowledge that comes from a community that prepares you to go out into a white collar working world and even come into the education system and navigate that correctly. And without, without this kind of help or support. Those first generations can make that investment and still be very excluded. I wonder if maybe you could bring that to life for us maybe from a personal point of view. To help us understand, did you have experiences where you felt excluded? You know, from from the career track from opportunities, specifically because you were first generation and you didn't know the rules of engagement?
Bob Athwal:Yeah, I, I absolutely did. I mean, it was a personal it's a personal road traveled. And I know, you know, one of the reasons why I'm so passionate about first gen Ed's is because I am one of them. And, and as I've mentioned to you, Rocky, you know, my mum's illiterate, and there's no school widow village back in India. And so, you know, my siblings, and I were very lucky, you know, just to be educated school level, let alone go to college, or college several times over. And I think, you know, for me, talking to other first gen, so my PhD is called the hidden talent. And the stories that sit beneath them, is that what we are is we're street smart. And we're late bloomers. And typically, the reason we're street smart and late bloomers is because we've had to navigate certain issues. That doesn't mean it doesn't have for other racial groups, white that are also from lower socio economic groups. But as we know, when we talk about privilege and white privilege, there's a difference in currency of skin color. There's a difference in lived experiences, there's also differences of person of color, and someone who's black in terms of my lived experience, but we have similarities. The point I'm making around, you know, not knowing is that when you are from one of these backgrounds, actually, people know what you've had to do, you've probably had to endure some stuff that others would only ever dream of. But actually, it's made you resilient, it's made you pick yourself up from the floor and start again, it's made you want to help others. And how many times do we hear the story that you know, what I find really humbling when I went to a different part of the world is those that have so little one to give so much. And I think that's so true. And so for me, the piece around, having those experiences going through, you know, getting to university, actually not feeling like I belong there. And that belonging was really important feeling like everyone was smarter than me. And they were saying things and doing things that I had no idea what it meant. And I was just pretending and then just felt out of place really just felt completely out of place. Until someone helped me understand it. And, and as you gather those experiences, you then start to piece them together, then they start to make sense. But I would say up until then, I know this is quite frightening that I'm about to admit. But I would say up until I got to 40. It said it was always like that. And then after 40, after Microsoft experiences in work and in the sort of the awards and the things that we'd done along the way with the teams and the fantastic people I work with, I suddenly realized as I hit my early 40s, that actually, how's better than most, I knew more than most. And actually, I hadn't actually gone for some of those opportunities, because I felt like I'd get rejected and I should have done. And so how do we ensure that doesn't happen for others? Not to say that, you know, I regret any of the the journey or the path that I've taken, I think if I hadn't taken that journey or the path, we wouldn't be here today.
Rocki Howard:Now, that's it's incredible. And I do think it does take time. And that's one of the prices we pay along the way. It's a bit of a tax that we pay. That's we have to navigate so many things that by the time we really step into our own sometimes it's a little bit later for us now don't count us out. We're still got lots of stuff to do. But that realization comes a little bit later. I appreciate you sharing that so transparently. I here's an interesting question. So we now start to learn the rules of the game, we now start to understand how we're supposed to show up where we're supposed to show up what the expectations are. And and by the time you get to a certain status, you will also understand what the biases are and what you're facing against. I'm curious for you as you learn those corporate rules. Did you feel like you compromised or had to code switch? Or did you feel like oh, no, I've I've really actually just understood and now I'm playing the same game as everybody else.
Bob Athwal:No, I said it's a really good point. I'd say it's a tale of two halves. I would say. code switching was definitely part of the early sort of, you know, when I first started my career, I felt I had to pretend to be somebody or pretend that I knew things that I didn't know anything about. or rapidly try and learn those things. I think what What's become, I would say in the last 15 years certainly is I've been myself. And I think that has been the sort of transformation really, that was also to the sort of freedom of knowing that actually, when I got into my 40s, that actually, I was probably better than most in some things. And that's not me being arrogant, it was just the fact that giving myself that acknowledgement that I was better than I thought I was. And, you know, because I didn't, I didn't really think that the start. And I think the code switching piece is so important and around just being your authentic self and being honest and open and transparent. And I think where I have been successful now is in a group of environments that I kind of network in the most consistent thing someone will say to you is here Bob, Bob is not changed actually, because I've been myself my authentic self for 15 odd years now. I talk the way I do it, sometimes referred to as a bit street in the UK, but I'm not going to put on a posh accent because I'm not posh. You know, I, I sometimes get my words mixed up. But you know, you know, even though I was born in the UK, English is still a second language. To me, Punjabi is my first language. I just don't know some of the phrases. My English was a bit behind when I was at school, if I'm honest, I was I was a late starter, I really probably didn't see the best of my work until I got to my postgraduate piece and did did my MBA, that's probably the best work I ever did, actually. But my schooling was trade dreadful. And my teachers probably never really liked what I remember bumping into one of my teachers when he, when he recognized that I was going to university, he couldn't believe it. And when I told him, I was going to university to do a master degree, he couldn't believe it even more, because I was that poor at it at school parent now. So.
Unknown:Wow,
Rocki Howard:wow, wow. Some people are really energized and empowered by the challenges that navigating the world being underrepresented presents, and some people are exhausted and emotionally taxed. Where do you sit on that continuum? What's been the impact on you personally,
Bob Athwal:I think I've spent my career I would say, I don't think you could argue anyone who knows me will say I've spent my career trying to help students, you know, and graduates, really, I've really fought that battle for a long time about, you know, getting rid of your GPAs, you know, looking at the institutions, you know, why is the Ivy League, the most coveted type. And I've done a really good job, and I've convinced others to come on that journey. He, I think the reflection for me, again, goes back to George Floyd, if I'm honest, you know, had I become complicit in this environment, this corporate environment where, even though I understood the rules of the game, I didn't call in or call out certain things. And I have worked for some senior people now and beat around those CD rooms, as, as many of us have, and, you know, I'm sure you'll recognize where you do wonder where some of these people have come from. And the and you do wonder what goes on in their minds, and their thoughts and how detached they are from a number of things and an almost a bit of a sort of self belief, right, that they they know, the answers weren't really there. And, and I think what's happened since, unfortunately, the murder and tragic death of George Floyd is for me to ask myself, every time I've been in those senior positions, every time I've been, you know, able to engage with people that are at sweezey level or had access to senior professors in universities, what did I do to really help them understand that it wasn't good enough that I was the only one in that room. It wasn't good enough that we weren't doing enough for others like me to come through, and why weren't we and what was going on? And I think that's been the real shift. I think now, you know, I'm a lot more vocal about stuff, vocal in a way that you can't argue. So you know, I've got good manners, I swear a lot, but I've got really good manners. So, you know, I do my best to be as polite, albeit, quite challenging for people because I just say, it's going to be uncomfortable. Like, we've got to have this conversation. And we're a snapshot in history. And that's the other bit people have to understand these. Were, this is a snapshot in history. We're paying for our sins of our forefathers and mothers, whoever they may be what they've done, and I'm talking about the history, the colonization and everything else. And and what we need to do is Yeah, we're not saying that, you know, you had something to do with it. But what we're saying is, you have everything to do with it in terms of fixing it now. And making sure we never go back and we reset that dial because all the issues around the world. It stems from our history.
Rocki Howard:Absolutely does
Bob Athwal:and So I've managed eyes by say, Well, actually, whilst I'm still in this position and working and continue to do so then I'm just going to be a big voice in terms of trying to do the right thing by making sure we don't go back to being complicit and just accepting, because that's no longer the case. I don't want my kids growing up in a world where they have to do that and compromise. And nor should they. And that's where I'm at.
Rocki Howard:Wow, I can't believe we're almost at the end of our time, because you and I could probably talk for hours. So I've got I've got two final questions for you. One is, I'd love for you to give one piece of advice. Like if, if an ally is listening today. And you could say to them, here's the one thing that you can start doing today to support people of color in the workplace, first generation people in the workplace, what would that one piece of advice be?
Bob Athwal:truly understand the lived experience for some of us and why that means it's important to become anti racist. Understand what that term actually means. And what we're asking for.
Rocki Howard:Cool. So close me out, you know, you know that this is a platform to give a voice to people who are underrepresented, you know, and this is your time, I'd really like for you to help people understand what it feels like, when you are walking through the world, the world of work as a first generation person of color.
Bob Athwal:Yeah, I think, recognize what you bring, recognize the diversity of thought, as well as the optical diversity, you bring all the gender diversity, you bring the sexual orientation diversity, you bring whatever characteristic, you bring that first generation piece, the intersectionality of it is across so much, so don't forget what you're adding, in terms of conversation. And the way I describe it to people now again, is, is classic, do not allow organizations to dupe you into thinking groupthink is the only way I the same old people from the same old places having the same old conversations. And if you do want any evidence, then just read the unfortunate Space Shuttle Challenger disaster where those engineers at NASA could not solve the problem because they were suffering from group thing. So that would be my sort of piece is just know what you bring to the party and be proud of it.
Rocki Howard:And be proud of it. You don't have to be perfect, just be proud. I'm so excited to have had you today sharing your wisdom and your perspective with us.
Unknown:Thank you so
Rocki Howard:so very much. And thank you for being a voice of diversity.
Bob Athwal:Thank you for having me.
Rocki Howard:Thank you for listening to today's episode. The mission of this podcast is to give a voice to diversity. I believe that the interactions between all voices, minority and majority can change the narrative of how the world communicates. And by changing that narrative, we can change the world. Join our mission to humanize diversity, one story, one conversation at a time by sharing our episodes, especially with those who are privileged and in positions of power. Help the voices of diversity podcast, be a catalyst for courageous conversations, and most importantly, for change. I'm your host Rocki Howard