Ep. 43 - The Corporate Introvert with guest Steve Friedman

Have you ever felt frustrated as an introvert in the corporate world? My guest, Steve Friedman, tried for many years to be something that he was not. Steve says, "I have finally realized, to be happy I don’t need to change myself, I just need to be myself.” It was not until he embraced his introversion and his natural strengths that he found success and happiness.  Join us for this conversation as we discuss introvert success in the workplace and Steve's new book, "The Corporate Introvert - How To Lead and Thrive With Confidence."  Learn how introvert strategies for success in leadership and at work will be different than those of the extrovert and how to help others in the workplace embrace their gifts as an introvert.

Guest: Steve Friedman

Get Steve's New Book:

The Corporate Introvert - How To Lead and Thrive With Confidence

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/steve-friedman-1295a5a2

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/BeyondIntroversion

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David Hall

Author, Speaker, Educator, Podcaster

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Transcript

Steve Friedman [00:00:00]:
The answer for me, it's important that we understand what introversion really is, that we understand our strengths, that we, therefore, can practice our strengths. You know? If we're great planners, how can we embed that into our day so that we can be better prepared to

David Hall [00:00:26]:
Hello, And welcome to the Quiet and Strong podcast, especially for introverts. I am your host, David Hall, and creator of quiet and strong.com. It's a weekly podcast dedicated to understanding the strengths and needs of introverts. Introversion is not something to fix, but to be embraced. Normally, we will air each episode on a Monday. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite platform. When Steve Friedman wrote his memoir, In Search of Courage, He realized the common thread of introversion he thought was a curse all of his life was actually a blessing. For years, he wore a mask at work And coped with this stress by sacrificing his health and personal relationships.

David Hall [00:01:08]:
Now he embraces his own introversion as a toolkit to become a happier person. He retired from corporate America and now enjoys sharing articles, books, quizzes, And resources through his website beyond introversion.com. Alright. I'm very excited to have our guest, Steve Friedman. Steve Friedman's the author of In Search of Courage, A Introvert's Story. That's his 1st book. And his 2nd book, which came out earlier this month is the corporate introvert how to lead and thrive with confidence. And he's also the creator of beyond introversion.com.

David Hall [00:01:44]:
Welcome, Steve.

Steve Friedman [00:01:46]:
Thank you very much, David. Thrilled to be here.

David Hall [00:01:49]:
Excited to have you. And, I wanted to share a quote that you gave me, Steve. So you said, I finally realized to be happy, I don't need to change myself. I just need to be myself.

Steve Friedman [00:02:00]:
Mhmm. Yeah.

David Hall [00:02:01]:
And I think that's key. I I discovered that myself. So so, Steve, tell us a little bit more about Your introversion and your journey to discover, you know, who you were and how to embrace your introversion.

Steve Friedman [00:02:15]:
Yeah. But, you know, the quote that you just shared seems so simple, but I know for me and and I think for a lot of people, that's a that's a long journey to get to that point. It was for me, and it was kind of a struggle. I can kinda relate my background in in something that I I share on my website, which is 5 phases of introversion. And so The first one is just, unaware. So, you know, like many people, I grew up. And when I was a little kid or even a teenager, I didn't know about introversion. I don't think I ever heard the word introversion.

Steve Friedman [00:02:50]:
I just knew I was different. For one thing, I had 3 older sisters. We get along splendidly, but they're all extroverts. So on a Saturday afternoon, you know, mom would open up the door and we'd all run outside or she'd kinda nudge me outside to go play with the kids. Half hour later, I was ready to come back in and do some stuff inside and just relax and do some of my hobbies or whatever. My sisters were out and about almost all day. They come home for dinner. We have dinner.

Steve Friedman [00:03:21]:
And, and then next thing you know, they're on the phone battling to get the phone line, right, to talk to the same people they talk to all day. And I just couldn't understand that. And my I don't think my parents really could understand that. And so I felt different, for that reason and and other reasons, but I wasn't sure what that was or why I felt different. I just did. And then, you you know, I think I was probably in my early twenties. I just started working in corporate America, and they gave us a personality test. And, so it said that I was an introvert, which, I mean, I'd heard the word at that point, but didn't really associate with it.

Steve Friedman [00:04:01]:
And and that kinda pushed me into the 2nd phase, which is uninformed. So, suddenly, I had this label, and labels can serve a purpose. But I had this label, and I didn't really have a lot of information with it. So to me, I assumed the, definition that floats around in most of society. And even today, still is in dictionaries and thesources, horrible things like loners and antisocial wallflowers, icicles, narcissists, I mean, horrible things. And one of the ones that I really love is, not an extrovert. So we're defined by what we're not by this by the, you know, majority of seemingly majority of society. And and those kind of things stuck with me, and I think stick with a lot of people.

Steve Friedman [00:04:46]:
And we can say later on perhaps, those are so wrong. And but when we're younger and just don't know, I I was very uninformed, and so I accepted those. And it really hit my self esteem, and it was difficult as I started the corporate work life. It took me a long time after that before I kinda ran upon information and became curious enough to learn what it truly meant. And that for me was kind of the the 3rd period of enlightenment. You know suddenly, I I read Susan Cain's book Quiet. Right? And and all these other resources started to started to come to me, and I realized that it's not a curse. It's a blessing.

Steve Friedman [00:05:24]:
And that there's so many, traits that we had that we should be proud of, but I was really kind of hide in them because I was I was kinda living in fear of myself. And, once I got through that phase, it let me get through the other two phase of contentment and flourishing, just really being comfortable with who I was. But, honestly, for me, that happened probably late in my forties. And, other people that I talked to on my website are telling me they're in their fifties, sixties, or seventies before they reach that, and I think that's I I can understand it, certainly and I think that is just, an opportunity for people like ourselves to kind of share our stories and share the hope and opportunity to accelerate that journey because, it was, you know, it was fairly dramatic for much of my life.

David Hall [00:06:15]:
Yeah. So I did read your 1st book, and I remember, you know, I related a lot to what you said. You know? There either there was a young boy with a great imagination, right, but misunderstood wanting you know, being pushed to do do more than, you know, was was natural to you and that you wanted to do. And, it wasn't talked about back then.

Steve Friedman [00:06:39]:
Right. Yeah.

David Hall [00:06:41]:
And and hopefully, you know, you talked about there are different misunderstandings about what it is. So hopefully, We will get it. We will get into some of that today and talk about what what it really means to be an introvert and how to, embrace that. And, man, if if you only have the label, it it doesn't really help you. And I think it can be harmful, like you said. Like, all it should be for is to help you really get understanding some common people, you know, because we're not all the same, you know. If if we talk further, we probably have a lot in common, but we probably have different aspects of our personality that are are different. It's it's a way to understand some things about ourselves, but but if you just say, oh, I'm an introvert or I'm extrovert or even AmberVert what whatever.

David Hall [00:07:33]:
Mhmm. It's not helpful. You really need to dive into that and understand what it means. And I know I've benefited from being in a workshop setting where people do talk about themselves and their their introversion, extroversion, and you can really when you start to explain yourself or hear other people explain themselves, you really can kinda get an understanding. So, yeah, we'll get into some of those myths today for

Steve Friedman [00:07:57]:
ensure. Okay? Great. Yeah. The, workshop that you just mentioned, I think that's one of the greatest things that can that that leaders and supervisors can do, and most are not comfortable with it. But we did that once, at work, and we just we we took a survey, Myers Briggs, many people take a mat. But as a team, we sat down and shared our results. And it was a team that was, you know, got along well and and knew a bit about each other, but, certainly, we uncovered a lot more. People have to feel comfortable able to be vulnerable with each other, which is a tough thing.

Steve Friedman [00:08:34]:
But I'll tell you, by the end of that session, we bought bonded to a much higher degree. We understood how each of us worked and what our strengths and weaknesses were in that regard. And then we actually went to another level, and we said, okay. Based on what I now understand Steve likes to do and is really good at and what he he doesn't prefer to do and what Sue and and Billy also are good good at and so forth, we started to move around some of the activities that we do. Because after all, if if we can be doing more of what we truly have a passion for instead of the things we really don't wanna do. I mean, how much more energy and success we bring to the team itself. So I I think that's a great thing that that you guys did and and some other organizations are doing.

David Hall [00:09:21]:
Yeah. And I kinda you know, we haven't done a lot of that over the last year and a half. So hopefully, we'll get more into that. Hey. You know, Ed, as you're talking with your teammates or or, you know, your colleagues, You see those light bulbs? Oh, that that helps me understand you just a little bit more. You know? Right. That you need a little bit of time by yourself and many other things.

Steve Friedman [00:09:41]:
Mhmm. Yep. Yeah. I've I've figured out late relatively late in my career that, I just needed to reenergize during the day, for many people, but, certainly, I think for a lot of introverts, you know, there's enough stuff going on during the day, which we may enjoy what we're doing, but there's enough social engagements or conflict resolution issues during the day, that can oftentimes drain our energy. And for me, as I think with a lot of of introverts, we're generally ambitious people. We we have goals. We have objectives we wanna achieve. And so, you know, we have full days packed in with meetings and other things to try and get to those objectives.

Steve Friedman [00:10:23]:
But I found I realized that was not really beneficial because I was so packed in, I had no break. And so as the day went on, my energy level just continue to decline. And I I frankly think I was probably useless by 3 o'clock. And, unfortunately, by 6 o'clock, when I came in the front door of the house. I crashed on the couch, and my wife and kids got the remnants or whatever was left. And I realized, you know, even if it's just a few minutes, if I can build in some breaks during the day to take a walk outside or or, you know, some people meditate or journal or listen do a little bit of music. It just helps to boost up that energy level. And I I would occasionally, depending on the day I was having, go grab my lunch, go off campus, grab my lunch by myself.

Steve Friedman [00:11:09]:
And some people thought, damn, that's really strange, you know, or you don't like anybody or, you know, how odd that is. But I I realized, one, that I needed that to be much more productive and engaging in the afternoon, But I also realized I needed to kinda clue the other people in in the office on, you know, hey. It's not that I don't like you or anything, and I'm happy to chitchat get, and let's grab lunch on Friday or whatever, but sometimes I just need that time. And when I was able to grant myself that that flexibility, it changed a lot of my experience at work.

David Hall [00:11:44]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And that's the thing. And so My book was minding your time, success, productivity, and, you know, time management, especially for introverts, and it's our our strategies don't look the same. You know? Just like for me, I figured out, you know what? By starting my day, I need a little bit of time alone, so I block off the first 90 minutes. And then throughout the day, I need to build in some kind of break like you're saying. And, you know, when I was in so right now, you know, I'm still kinda half work it in the office, half work it at home. When I was in the office, some of that break just came from walking around to different meetings, but now I have to, like, make sure I'm get if I'm home getting up out of my chair and and and doing that, but it just looks different.

David Hall [00:12:27]:
It's not strange. It's just How do I function best? And that's what you need to figure out.

Steve Friedman [00:12:33]:
Right. Yeah. I agree. I agree. And I think, you know, we talked about labels earlier, but I think people, there's a roughly, depending on what source you go to, roughly half the people in the world and in corporate workplaces are introverts. So I I call this the hidden half because, I mean, we really generally lay low. And unless you observe somebody, you might not know that they're convert. And I know for myself, I wore this mask all day, and I tried to pull it off that I was like everybody else in the way I approach things for much of my career until I realized that was really not it was it was detrimental to my own health and not really helpful for the team either.

Steve Friedman [00:13:10]:
But I really think that to the extent that we can we recognize that there's a lot of other people like us out there. We just need to maybe engage with each other and give ourselves some support, and then suddenly, people are more comfortable to be our true selves. And whether you're an introvert or an extrovert, isn't that what we're all should be striving for is just authenticity, and then we can bring a lot more ideas to the table in a much more comfortable setting. Bet. Yeah. It's hard easier said than done sometimes. Yeah.

David Hall [00:13:40]:
Yeah. I go with 50%, and, you know, I get surprised looks or reactions to that number. But when they're surprised, it's because they're using the terms that you mentioned earlier. You know? It's it's they're using the wrong definition because I know a lot of very outspoken and very confident introverts. They're just deep thinkers, and that's that's that's the difference. We're deep thinkers. And if you can understand what you need and your strengths, that's that's the difference. And so, you know, again, we just gotta get the word out there what it really is.

David Hall [00:14:13]:
Right? So

Steve Friedman [00:14:14]:
I agree. I think that's a that that is a lot more important then it seems, I think. Because, and I've talked mentioned the dictionaries and the sources and and actually worked with another website to, put a petition together earlier this year and submit it to some online thesauruses and dictionaries because it was just so aggravating. And we had thousands of people sign up for that petition. And I'll tell you, every 3 months on my calendar, because as a good introvert, I have a, you know, rigid calendar plan, but I still go back to those same, online resources and badger them a bit tactfully, I believe, about the importance of reflecting more accurately the definitions and synonyms of introversion because not only because other people well you see that. That's the whole purpose of a thesaurus sometimes. But, it's not just the general public or extroverts, but it's introverts as well. And like we were talking about when you're when you're younger or you don't have the confidence.

Steve Friedman [00:15:15]:
I mean, we absorb those, and we sometimes become those. And, so I think there is so important that we at least get more accurate definitions, because it's so misleading.

David Hall [00:15:29]:
Yeah. For sure. So I know that in your long career, like, at what point did you finally say, I I need to embrace this, who I am.

Steve Friedman [00:15:40]:
It was relatively late in my career. I was in my early forties. Had spent I was at the tail end of a 3 year, assignment in London, actually, and, which was great from a family perspective. But from a work perspective. I found it to be really difficult because everything was new and different. I was I was with the same company, but everybody in the office was new. It was a global role, so I was traveling a lot. And and my team was virtual, which I've personally, I find it harder to build those relationships, without being able to sit down sort of 1 on 1.

Steve Friedman [00:16:15]:
For me, that that networking intimacy is what I I call it, but it's really helpful. I'm not gonna do well online do as well online, and I'm certainly not gonna do well with 50 people in the room. End. So I had to find a way to do that, but it was really difficult. And I found that 3 year assignment to be stressful from a number of ways. And And as that wound down and I had to think about what was my next assignment or what did I want to pursue next within the company, I thought, you know, now I need to make a change. I need to, but I have to decide. Am I gonna change my company or my career, or am I gonna change who I am in order to conform more and, maybe a piece the kinda outside world? Or am I going to actually change the way I manage and the way I lead teams to be more aligned with my true authentic self? And it sounds simple, but I had worked for, oh, at that time, over 2 decades trying to make sure people didn't really know the my prove self, and, which I think is so demeaning for people that, you know, people like me and many others that feel like I'm not good enough to be my true self, so I'm gonna pretend I'm somebody else.

Steve Friedman [00:17:32]:
And I just decided, during that 3 years, I was suffering from a lot of unhealthy things. Would go to the doctor at least once a month about some kind of a rash or or a muscle ache or something like that, shingles. And, and he said, you know, I can help you with these things, but it's all stress related. You know, our bodies are pretty incredible on that. If we're going undergoing stress, it'll eventually come to the surface. And he said, you know, the only way you can really stop this and and improve your life is to remove that stress. And I've decided at the end of that 3 3 years, it was just enough. But I didn't wanna leave a company that was good to me and I had good experiences with.

Steve Friedman [00:18:12]:
I just wanted to, work and lead differently. And I had the opportunity when I came back to the states in a new role to really, turn over a new leaf and try and lead more And, it was different than I had done before, and it was different from a lot of the people around me, but I found so much comfort in being able to do that and, and take the mask off. That, that was the turning point in my life.

David Hall [00:18:39]:
Okay. What's what's, what's an example of how it was different for you?

Steve Friedman [00:18:44]:
You know, I used to, I used to go to a lot of work conferences. And, so, you know, there's conference meetings and presentations during the day, and then there's cocktails or worse yet, they break apart the meetings during the day to ensure that you have social time in between all those sessions. And that was just really a struggle for me. And, I mean, I remember calling my wife once. I was in a at a conference in Peru, and I called her in the middle of the night. And I said, you know, this is really, I'm not sure how I'm making it through. And I was there with a a person that was on my team, so I felt responsible to kinda show him around. But I was new to the business as well, and so talking kinda injecting myself into these discussions with people I don't really know was, anxiety ridden to say the least.

Steve Friedman [00:19:40]:
Later that night, after I got back to my room and I I wrote my wife, an email because I realized I probably scared the crap out of her because I was really on the edge. And I said, you know, it's I'm not falling apart. It's okay. The the deal's over, so I'm coming home. But I realized that that that was in in honesty, I was falling apart at that move it in time. What I've realized since then is I don't think my manager sent me to this conference to, hey. Go go mingle with a 100 people and bring back bring back a 100 business cards of people that you met and all this other stuff and that you you, work the room. He wanted me to go and learn, and he wanted me to go and meet some people to develop greater relationships.

Steve Friedman [00:20:26]:
How I did that really was my up to me, end or at least that's the way most, I believe, managers should be leading that way. And so after that, I realized that when I had our conferences, and I still have plenty in the rest of my career, I would line up, more 1 on 1, 2 on 2 sort of meetings during the day. And so we would develop relationships. Right? And we'd have a much calmer, nice casual conversation like we're having where we could get to know each other. And then we'd also obviously talk business, and we'd have some opportunities. And I would come back, you know, at the end of that with maybe 5 or 10 meetings that I've had, 5 or 10 business cards, if you will, that I could follow-up on, but I've developed really deeper relationships. And if I wanted to go tackle that big cocktail at the end of the day, it was kind of like a it was an option for me. And if I did, I'd go in there and I'd approach a couple of tables.

Steve Friedman [00:21:20]:
And I'd bring in my mind, at least, I'd bring a list of things that I wanted to talk about or questions that I had so I wouldn't freeze up when I got to that table. And it helped me to have more conversations, but I'd already really accomplished the objective of the conference in the 1st place. And so sometimes I would stay for 30 minutes, and I'd leave. And other times, I would stay for 30, and I enjoyed it and met some of the people or saw some of the people I'd had meetings live, and we chat again. And it was easier since I had broken the ice with some of the individuals. And so sometimes I'd be there for an hour or 2, and other I would leave in either way. In the past, I would just beat myself up. You know? I think that's one of the biggest challenges of introverts is sometimes we're our own worst enemy.

Steve Friedman [00:22:05]:
And, you know, oh, I I should have talked more to people. Why did I freeze up and I couldn't have that conversation? You know this is what I'm here to do, but I realized that that was different. And so I could get myself support even if I didn't go to the cocktail at the end of the day. You know look at all the things I learned and the people that I met during the day, and and, or I went to the conference and I I made that effort. And so, you know, a lot of it was just celebrating and being a cheerleader for the effort that I was making, and it really changed a lot of my approach at work.

David Hall [00:22:37]:
Yeah. That's a great example, and I really relate to that. You know, introversion and extroversion, it's not good or bad. They're just different, and we're gonna have different approaches. And I I learned that too. It's like, okay. When you're going to an event like that, what's your goal? And you said, you know, to build 5 or 10 good relationships move And not the 100 that your extroverted colleague wants to do. And they're not good or bad, but if you accomplish that, Then that's that's what you set out to do.

David Hall [00:23:07]:
And maybe, you stay for a long period of time or maybe you accomplish goal, and you let yourself go back to your room or or go out, you know, on this new town or whatever. But it's it's what is your goal, and what are your strategies? You know, how do you prepare for that, and how do you employ your introverted strengths, but also honor honor your introverted needs? And, Yeah. That's that's a common one. Net if you don't understand that, networking can definitely provoke a lot of anxiety in introverts.

Steve Friedman [00:23:39]:
Yeah, and and I think that's really tough because let's face it, no matter whether you're working in a big company or a small company or your own company, there's networking or socializing, whatever you wanna call it, anywhere for any job. And so we have to we have to do it, and it's it helps to be able to do that well, but the key is that we have to do it our way. And if we do it our way and we think about the strengths that we have and give ourselves our own support, then, we can actually do it quite well and, and and even enjoy it. But we have to do it in a different way than the people around us are generally doing it, or at least the the extroverts in the ring.

David Hall [00:24:19]:
Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about introverted strength. So, in your book your 1st book, again, I know we're gonna talk more more about your 2nd book, but in your 1st book, you know, I definitely picked up on that Part of your success in your in your in your career was that you were very analytical. You know? And and I relate to that because I am as well. And, you know, not all introverts are gonna be that way. We all have our bring gifts. But, I mean, that definitely comes from, you know, being a deep thinker. So what would you say are some of, Introverted strengths maybe that you have or you've seen in others.

Steve Friedman [00:24:49]:
So, so I'll tell you one of the things that we have on my website, which I was real real excited to, to put out there last year earlier this year was a was a introvert strength quiz. And we've actually had over 1500 people take it, which is amazing. And so when they take it and it's free and it doesn't take very long to take and then you get a report of, what are your, it looks at 8 different qualities or characteristics, and it says, which are kinda your stronger ones? We all have strengths. And I wouldn't say the others are weaknesses, but there's some that are more prominent. And, and then there's some information on how can we grow or use those strengths, and what are some of the cautions of overuse on some of those strengths. But what I found is, the biggest, most common strength for those 1500 people, and certainly be for me as well, and you alluded to it is is, preparation. So so many introverts lean on that. Now not everybody because we are all different, But the majority of the, of the people that took the quiz said, I I like to prepare.

Steve Friedman [00:25:53]:
And by answering certain questions, they we recognize that that is a strength, and I think it reduces our anxiety. So, I think that extroverts would love to just roll into a cocktail party or a dinner, and they just start chatting. And I think their natural curiosity took takes hold, and they they don't have any apprehensions about that. Or they roll into a business meeting and they just you know, whatever comes at the top of their head, which sometimes we can be envious of that, but sometimes the things that are on the top of people's heads, are not necessarily the best information to share in meetings. But I I realized that was not my style. And so if we, as a as an introvert, if we can embrace that preparation and make sure we put some some time aside for that. So if I know I have a big meeting in the afternoon, I've learned that I actually need to block out some time. Maybe it's right before the meeting.

Steve Friedman [00:26:47]:
Maybe it's the day before. It depends on the kind of meeting. And think about you know, hopefully, I've got preread or or an agenda so I can think about what's that meeting gonna be about, and what do I have what expertise or knowledge or curiosity do I have to add to that meeting? And, and so I'm bringing a different kind of analysis to the meeting than some of the people that are just talking off the top of their head. I think meetings need both of those, but it certainly helped me to feel more comfortable that that I had thought about what my questions were gonna be or my points or my issues that I wanted to share in meetings or or in social events like we talked a little bit about earlier. So so I think preparation is big. I think, another, really common one which which I appreciate and and had to learn about in a different way was listening or or observation. I think a lot of people look at at those of us that might be listening or observing and think, you know, they're just not enter the discussion, right, or they're they're out of the loop, or they're shy, or whatnot. But in actuality, I think what I've realized is listening is learning.

Steve Friedman [00:27:52]:
I mean, we're sitting there, and we're observing. We're observing body language. We're listening to what these 3 different people say. And what we bring to the table, I think one of the great unique things that we can bring to the table is we can take those different, insights that are floating around the room, and we can decide those into unique perspectives. And so then we can share, oh, you know, what I observe what I'm observing is this, or here's a question that kind of came comes out of the discussion that we've had that other people may not share. And I think it can really bring the conversation in a meeting or in a social setting do a different level. And so I used to think that listening was that I was just being quiet, and it was my way to to get in my introverted comfort zone and just back out of conversations. But then I realized that it's a great opportunity to to learn and contribute in a unique way.

Steve Friedman [00:28:44]:
And so it's one of those strengths that we need to to really lean on. And and I guess the third one I'll I'll share would be thoughtfulness. So a lot of people think, and I definitely fell into this group for a long time that, you know, introverts are not very sociable, and we don't develop relationships because we're either nervous or shy or unprepared or overwhelmed or all of the above or whatever the case may be. But, really we we have, if we're in a comfortable and I would say more of a safe environment, then we can have lots of conversations like like this one today or, you know, with other people that we work or we, socialize with that can be very thoughtful. Write. I mean, we we we have this natural curiosity. We can ask questions about their family or whatever. We can we can really bring that conversation to usually a much deeper level because, as you say, we're kinda deep thinkers.

Steve Friedman [00:29:38]:
So we can we wanna kinda skip that chitchat pretty quickly and get into more tangible conversations about what you're about. You know? What are your passions about? What do you what do you love at work? What are your issues and that sort of stuff? And so that thoughtfulness really makes for unique kind of relationship. I got somebody that did a a guest blog on our our website, and, she was definitely an introvert, and she had a career in sales and marketing. And so her guest blog was about, you know, most people would think that introverts deny good salespeople. And she disagreed vehemently, and she was a perfect example. And she said, you know, yes. I approached it differently. I approached it with my authentic self, but I had perhaps less relationships than my extroverted, cohorts, but I had such unique relationships with my customers.

Steve Friedman [00:30:30]:
And and we knew each other on a deeper level, and so I understood more about what they needed from, our company or from from other customers, and we could help connect and deliver on that. End. So I thought that was really a great way to kinda embrace your thoughtfulness and make it work for you. And, so I think, you know, those are a few strengths out of many, that that introverts sometimes go a long time without recognizing or without recognizing that it's a positive.

David Hall [00:31:01]:
Yeah. Great points on strengths and, you know, preparation is so key. You know, we are deep thinkers. We like we we like to think, but we also need to think. Yeah. And, you know, listening is you can gather all the information. And, you know, that's another thing that we don't always recognize is extroverts, speak in order to to think, And so they're sharing a lot of information, whereas the introvert typically is going to put everything together in their head and share that most important thing. And so, you know, it might do proceed that we're not talking as much, but we're really sharing what we think is most important.

Steve Friedman [00:31:41]:
Yeah. One one of the things that I talk about in my 2nd book is, just around introverts in leadership roles because I think on the surface, certainly, extroverts would probably say, introverts are not necessarily leadership material. They seem to be all these negative stigmas that we talked about earlier and, you know, slower, quiet, whatever. And, But in actuality, most of the research these days says we've moved far away from this command and control kind of leadership, you know, where somebody is the big person in the room and and will tell everybody what to do and how to do it and all this sort of stuff. It doesn't really work these days. People don't wanna work for that person. That culture doesn't really, emanate out to their customers in a positive way, and people want to work in organizations where they can participate. The the organization and the type of culture that introverts can create in organizations is really unique and oftentimes, you know, makes for the most engaging sort of organizations and the happiest employees because they're they're able to collaborate and participate.

Steve Friedman [00:32:48]:
And and most most people at work, that's that's largely what they want. Most most studies say it's not really the money that makes people leave. It's the fact that they're not involved. They don't feel like they have a say in the conversations or discussions where they just don't feel comfortable enough. And I I think that's, you know, really unfortunate, but I think it's incumbent upon not just the organization, but it is incumbent upon us as introverts to make sure we participate in our own authentic way, but that we bring our ideas to the table because the companies really want that. And, and we have lots of lots of things we can share.

David Hall [00:33:24]:
Absolutely. And so you mentioned leadership, and a a little bit ago, you mentioned sales. It's funny that people say, can introvert do this, or can introvert do that? It's like, absolutely. They could be amazing leaders. They could be amazing salespeople, but the approach is just gonna look different. Right?

Steve Friedman [00:33:41]:
Write. Yeah. Some somebody asked me, a while back and it prompted a a blog because I just thought it was such an interesting question. Simple, but, you know, they said, well, so what are the best jobs for introverts? And much like you just said, it's it's any job that you have an interest, skills, and passion for. And so there isn't any job that I would you know, you don't have to stay in a room all by yourself, and feel like that's what my lot in life is. If you wanna do that, that's great. But if you wanna be a salesperson, a leader, a speaker at a, at our conference. You you can do anything that you wanna do, but but, you just have to figure that out and figure out how to do it your way.

David Hall [00:34:21]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Using your strengths. Mhmm. And, yeah, I've gotten that before, like, oh, you know, you're an introvert. You just wanna be alone all put time. I'm like, no. That would drive me crazy.

David Hall [00:34:30]:
I need some time, but I also I I need some relationships and connections and collaboration with folks and Mhmm. But, you know, I need some time. So it it's just funny the the misperceptions that are out there.

Steve Friedman [00:34:43]:
Yeah, I think that's why I mean, we sorry. Sorry to interrupt.

David Hall [00:34:47]:
Go ahead.

Steve Friedman [00:34:47]:
But I but I think that's one reason why it is, maybe it's not fair that it should be our responsibility, but I do think it's incumbent upon us in general as introverts to, one, advocate for ourselves. You know don't don't get steamrolled by people that happen to be louder or or grab more airtime in a meeting or whatnot. You know, speak for ourselves and feel doesn't mean we have to grab half the airtime with the other person, but make sure we're respected and that we have the opportunity to share our strengths. And then I do think we have to advocate to some extent for introverts in general because because some may not be comfortable or ready yet or even aware yet, in order to kind of carve out their their space in the team. But, teams need to be, more open to that, and so we need to help educate others, educate other introverts, educate extroverts. It's not you know? I I have no ill will toward extroverts at all. I think that the best teams and companies are made up of a very diverse group of people and diversity in all aspects, and that includes introverts and extroverts getting along, respecting each other, sharing ideas, and that's the best arrangement. But, you know, a lot of a lot of extroverts don't recognize that.

Steve Friedman [00:36:03]:
And in part because maybe they don't even recognize who be introverts are, or they believe in some of the, misinformed stigmas and definitions that we talked about earlier.

David Hall [00:36:14]:
Yeah. Exactly. You put it very well. There's a diversity that comes by personality, and we need everybody, and we all have our unique strengths and gifts.

Steve Friedman [00:36:23]:
Correct.

David Hall [00:36:23]:
And so, part of it, like you said, is is helping others in the workplace understand themselves. So it's helping the introvert understand themselves, helping the extrovert understand the introvert and vice versa.

Steve Friedman [00:36:36]:
Mhmm. And I

David Hall [00:36:36]:
think that is a big part of leadership is is really, you know, understanding who's working for you and and helping them understand each other.

Steve Friedman [00:36:46]:
Write.

David Hall [00:36:46]:
What are your thoughts on how how to how to do that as a leader?

Steve Friedman [00:36:50]:
You know, I think we I I would say as a leader and as an introverted leader to lean on our strengths and and buy example. And so, you know, listen. Listening is always a good place to start for for anything. Listening, asking questions, gins, letting our natural curiosity take over, creating that space for them. A lot, you know, a lot of introverts, certainly myself included, I need some time and space. Sow. You know, if I go into a a brainstorming debate on a topic and I'm told the topic, you know, a second before we get started on this around this roundtable, I'm I'm not gonna feel very comfortable, and I'm probably not gonna participate very well. I need a little bit of time and space.

Steve Friedman [00:37:28]:
So I would encourage, team leaders to you know, when they have a meeting, issue an agenda. Issue a preread if it's a complex topic. Some some people may not look at either one of them, but most of the time, most introverts are gonna look through that and should carve out some time to think about what they wanna cover and and discuss in the meeting. In that way, you know, I I I consider that I went through or or was subjected to introvert's paralysis a lot of the time. I get in these situation social media. I just kinda freeze up, and it's like, I know the topic or I know I'm I can communicate. Right? I'm able to socialize, but I just freeze up. Maybe it's a level of anxiety that I have when I'm in these sort of situations.

Steve Friedman [00:38:13]:
But if we create that time and space to prepare, then I don't freeze up, and I can just get into the flow, and introverts in general can get into that flow. And so I think it's really, introverts aren't asking for pity or excuses from their leaders. They just want respect, and they want understanding. So if you're a leader and you're an extrovert, to really just understand more, you know, learn about what introversion is. If you're a leader and an introvert, In addition to that, I would really say one of the greatest things you can do is offer up your introversion. Share that with people. Doesn't mean you have to go rent a billboard on the side of the highway, but you can have those conversations 1 on 1 with some of your staff, with your own manager, and share that kind of information, not in a, hey. I'm telling you this because that's why I I'm not the loudest person in the room, but in the light of I bring all these strengths to the table, and, I want to continue to do that.

Steve Friedman [00:39:11]:
And, and there are many other introverts in your team that have those same kinds of strengths. And we just need to create as a team, we need to create that that time and space because companies are paying a lot of money to their resources, generally their biggest expenditure, and so they should wanna get everything out of them. And but it's up to the the organization and the leaders to create that environment where everybody feels comfortable to contribute.

David Hall [00:39:39]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And it's Like, we talked about the label earlier on. You have to get past that. You have to say just like you're saying, here's what my strengths are. Here's what my needs are. And, I mean, you know, if we're working together, I want you to be your best. And if I understand, hey.

David Hall [00:39:56]:
That time Steve needs alone, That's where he's gonna do his best work. Just because I don't need it or I don't need as much doesn't mean it's not a valid a valid need. And so I think you hit it be right there on the head that, you know, we just need to articulate what it is that we need to be successful and how we can use our strengths to do that.

Steve Friedman [00:40:14]:
I agree. Definitely.

David Hall [00:40:16]:
I'm excited for your new book, the corporate in introvert. What haven't we covered yet that you're excited about in your new book?

Steve Friedman [00:40:22]:
I think that, you know, when I've talked to some people about the book and and, they ask, well, so what's the key? What's the the trick for me to be able to be a good leader, and, or how can I best manage a meeting? And, and the answer for me, for either one of those questions is, first, we have to start a bit at the beginning. We have to back up a little bit, to really make it worthwhile and hit home. And when I say backup, it's important that we understand what introversion really is, that we understand our strengths, that we, therefore, can practice our strengths? You know, if we're great planners or good planners, how can we embed that into our day so that we can be better prepared to lead, to have maybe those difficult coaching conversations at times, to to have successful meetings whether we're leading or participating in them. So I think it really starts with understanding who we are. And I think once we're able to actually understand that and then apply that throughout the day, then whether you're an introvert that suffered from low self esteem or not, it builds confidence when we're able to stand tall and say, you know, this is who I am, and this is whether we say it verbally or through our actions, this is who I am, and this is a successful way to contribute to a team. And so I think that, so about a third of my book is talking about, you know, what is introversion, and who are we, and what are our strengths, and how can we apply those in different situations. Then we go into some of those situations and provide a lot of strategies and models for how to have successful meetings or network or so forth. And then the last bit of the book is on leadership.

Steve Friedman [00:42:07]:
So how, as a manager, can I lead a successful team? And using my strengths that we talk about earlier in the book, how can we make sure that we're doing it our way, because that's the right way for us to manage a successful team. So I I think it's just really goes back to the authenticity at the very beginning.

David Hall [00:42:27]:
Absolutely. Alright. Is there anything else that we didn't talk about today that you wanna mention?

Steve Friedman [00:42:35]:
Just, happy to be on with you. I think that, you know, some of the groups that that we're talking to are people, whether it's leaders in companies or the employees in companies because I think both have the opportunity to learn. Right? And and diversity and inter and inclusion and equality is an important theme, a very important theme as it has been and should be in organizations. But as you mentioned earlier, this is really diversity of per of of personality and perspective, and so I think we just need to kind of educate ourselves, educate our leadership. And those that kinda get it, the light bulb goes off, they perform at a different level, and it's a different level of bonding within the team and, really, getting to the point of of getting the ultimate contributions from from the team. I also think the other the other group that that I I focus on when I talk to, to folks are those, like, in the college ranks, upperclassmen, because a lot of those people are gonna find their way into corporate America. And as we said, roughly half of them are introverts. And I I know if I when I was 20, if I knew what I what I kinda scrape my way through to figure out over the decades ahead of how what I was gonna get into, what are kind of the corporate cultures in general, but more importantly, how I could use my, learn about my own strengths and use those and not feel ashamed to use them, but actually proud to use them, that it would made a huge difference in people in my career, early on and in other people's careers.

Steve Friedman [00:44:12]:
So I I think that's, there's a lot of opportunities for people to accelerate their own journey through those 5 phases we talked to talked about at the beginning just, kind of looking around and learning.

David Hall [00:44:25]:
Absolutely. So we come by introversion very naturally as I believe, let it the sooner we can learn to embrace it, you know, you can find success in your own strengths. And, definitely, if you're not already confident, put it. You can gain confidence by understanding yourself. So very good work, Steve. I look forward to reading your book.

Steve Friedman [00:44:45]:
Thank you.

David Hall [00:44:46]:
And tell tell us again what your website is and where people can find your book.

Steve Friedman [00:44:51]:
So the book is, out there on Amazon and online and a few other places as well. But the easiest way to find me is just on my website beyond introversion.com. And so there's, weekly blogs. There's, the quiz a couple of quizzes, one of which we talked about. There's other resources available for introverts to kinda learn more about who they are, and, and embrace for them to embrace their true self. So I would certainly encourage, people to go check out the website, and and both books are available there as well.

David Hall [00:45:21]:
Alright. Thank you, Steve. It's been a pleasure talking with you. Keep up your amazing work. The world needs it.

Steve Friedman [00:45:28]:
Well, thank you very much, and I appreciate it. Thanks Thanks for having me, and you keep up the great work because I think your your podcast is providing a very important platform to a lot of people.

David Hall [00:45:39]:
Thank you. Thank you so much for joining me today. I look forward to further connecting with you. Reach out at David at quiet and strong.com. Check out the website, quiet and strong.com. I'll add social media channels for me and my guests to the show notes. Please comment on social media posts. Send me topics or guests you'd like to see on the show.

David Hall [00:46:04]:
There's so many great things about being an introvert, and so we need those to be understood. Get to know your introverted strengths and needs and be strong.