Ep 202 - Understanding Your Introversion through Fiction with Guests David Boroughs and his son Josh Boroughs

Are you ready to challenge your perceptions about introversion and discover how fictional stories can inspire real-life self-acceptance and growth? Join us in this thought-provoking episode of "The Quiet And Strong Podcast" as host David Hall chats with father-son duo David and Joshua Boroughs. Together, they explore the unique world of their co-authored book series, "Anxiety High," designed to shed light on the nuances of introversion and encourage meaningful dialogue.

Why should you listen? This episode offers not just a conversation about a book series but a compelling discussion about understanding and embracing introversion. Whether you're an introvert seeking self-acceptance or someone wanting to better understand introverted loved ones, David and Joshua's insights and experiences will resonate deeply.

Tune in to discover how fiction can illuminate the path to self-awareness and learn why it's vital to appreciate the strengths that come with being an introvert.

Listen to this insightful episode, embrace your authentic self, and be strong.

Episode Link: QuietandStrong.com/202
- - -

David and Joshua Boroughs are a father-son writing team from Houston, Texas. David is the author of The Extrovert’s Guide to Elevating Introverted Leaders in the Workplace. He is a retired professional engineer and corporate leader now focusing on his family while pursuing his passion as an author and artist. Joshua is a high school student and Anxiety High Volume 1: There is Nothing Wrong with You! is his first book. He is a typical teenager who spends his spare time with his friends, playing video games, running, and now writing. Both David and Joshua are introverts with a desire to help others learn how to be authentically happy and successful.

Get the Books:

The Extrovert’s Guide to Elevating Introverted Leaders in the Workplace  - David Boroughs

Anxiety High Volume 1: There is Nothing Wrong with You! - David and Joshua Boroughs

Anxiety High Volume 2: You Are Not Alone - David and Joshua Boroughs

Transcript

David Boroughs [00:00:00]:
The story's fiction, the characters are fiction, but the struggles are real, the lessons are real, and they can be impactful to people. So our goal was to write a story that was interesting, that was meaningful, that moved people. But at the same time, when you put it down, you made you think. Right? Whether you're an introvert or an extrovert or a parent or a teacher, you reassessed your belief system in in in a way that that changed kinda how you felt about personality

David Hall [00:00:35]:
type. Hello, and welcome to episode 202 of the Quiet and Strong podcast, especially for introverts. I'm your host, David Hall, and the creator of quiet and strong dot com. This is a weekly podcast dedicated to understanding the strengths and needs of introverts along with strategies for success. Introversion is not something to fix, but to be embraced. Normally, we will air each episode on a Monday. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite platform. Leave a review or a rating.

David Hall [00:01:03]:
That would mean a lot to me and help others find the show. Tell a friend about the podcast and help get the word out there that introversion is a beautiful thing. David and Joshua Burrows are father son writing team from Houston, Texas. David is the author of the extrovert's guide to elevating introverted leaders in the workplace and coauthor with his son, Joshua, anxiety high volume 1, there's nothing wrong with you, and anxiety high volume 2, you are not alone. He is a retired professional engineer and corporate leader now focusing on his family while pursuing his passion as an author and an artist. Joshua is a high school student and a typical teenager who spends his spare time with his friends, playing video games, running, and now writing. Both David and Joshua are introverts with the desire to help others learn how to be authentically happy and successful while simultaneously being champions for cultural change so people of all personality types feel like they belong.

David Hall [00:02:06]:
Alright. Well, welcome back to the Quiet and Strong podcast, David and Josh. It's so great to have you back on again.

David Boroughs [00:02:14]:
Thanks. We appreciate it. It's it's exciting for us to be here. Yeah.

Joshua Boroughs [00:02:16]:
Thanks for having us back.

David Hall [00:02:18]:
Yeah. So you're a father and son writing team. You've written 2 books together. And, David, last time, we also talked about the book that you, you have written, the extrovert's guide to elevating introverted leaders in the workplace. We talked about that. And since that book, you started writing with your son, Josh. And let's let's talk about that. Like and for everybody listening, if you wanna go back and listen to our previous episode, it's episode 151, so you can check that out.

David Hall [00:02:48]:
So how did you start as a father son writing team, and how did you have introversion as your theme for writing this series of books that you're doing?

David Boroughs [00:02:59]:
Yeah. I so I worked in corporate America for 30 years, which is what the first book's really about. It's a nonfiction book about my experiences as an introvert in corporate America. But I retired 3 years ago, and people when you retire, people ask you what you're gonna do. And one of the things I thought I would do, and I didn't know if I would be successful because I'd never done it before, is write a few books. And I always had in my mind I would write the first book because it was because I wrote a lot in within work, and I champion kinda introversion. They were developing an equal playing field for introverts in a world that really biased towards extroverts. And at the same time, I knew that Josh was introverted even though probably at that time Josh didn't know it himself.

David Boroughs [00:03:38]:
And I believe he struggled with some of the same things, and and he was you know, I was thinking back when I was in school and I didn't know I was introverted. I knew nothing about it. And and also knew when I was trying to get Josh to read books in introversion, like Susan Cain's book for for for teenagers, which is a cool book. But I really had a hard time getting him to read that book. And I'm like but he loved graphic novels. So I had in my mind, I should write a graphic novel or create a graphic novel. It's all the the word theme is introversion because I knew teenagers would probably soak that in much more than he would have a nonfiction type book. So kinda always had it in the back of my mind.

David Boroughs [00:04:12]:
I would write my book, which I did the 1st year I was retired, and then I would kinda dive into this other this other project, which were these team books. But I when I started doing it, it was clear to me that I wasn't going to do a great job if I did it by myself because every all my experiences are dated. Right? They're 30, 35, 40 years old.

David Hall [00:04:31]:
Yeah.

David Boroughs [00:04:32]:
Just wouldn't relate. It wouldn't hit right. And I really wanted Josh to kinda be involved, so I started talking to him about it. And, eventually, I, you know, wore him down and he got on board. So I don't know if he wants to mention how he felt about it.

Joshua Boroughs [00:04:45]:
That I think that that sums it up. It just at first I mean, it was a it was a kind of a long time ago when we started the first folks. I don't remember perfectly, but I kinda just felt like at first I was being dragged in. But then after after a while, I was in I was enjoying doing it, and I was happy to come back and do the do the second one with him.

David Hall [00:05:02]:
Yeah. It

David Boroughs [00:05:03]:
was it was kinda cool because the first one, I did a lot of the outlining, and then we divided up the work, and we each wrote about half of it. But the second one, we had we did this on a whiteboard in in in my kinda office here at home. And one day, I walked by after we'd written the the first one. And one day, I'd walked by, and we'd erased the whiteboard that we'd used. It was just blank, and and it was full. And I'm like, where the hell what happened? What is that? And Josh, he went in there and filled out the outline for book 2, and that's kinda where it started. And we sit there and let that percolate for a long time before we actually started writing. So

David Hall [00:05:36]:
Yeah. Yeah. So you did get dragged into it, Josh. But yeah. I mean, David, I that's when you were doing the writing, you know, especially around the corporate world, the things like that, that's where I connected with you on LinkedIn and and then, you know, then figured out that you were doing this great thing with Josh, and that's amazing. We're gonna talk about volumes 1 and 2, and and there's a couple more in this series. Right?

David Boroughs [00:06:00]:
Yeah. I mean, so when we when we were thinking about how to do this, it was you know, like I said, at first, we started thinking graphic novel. But when we started actually creating them and writing them, it became clear that there was more there was more story here than what typically you have in a graphic novel. And when we started writing it, it kinda became this hybrid between a graphic novel and a novelette. So it's we we kept look. For the illustrations, we kept the graphic novel feel for the illustrations, but there's a there's a story there, and it's a pretty in-depth story. And we came up with this this idea of doing it in a school, and, the school is and the school's name is Jane Piety Academy, but it's a stressful place for kids. So they refer to it as anxiety high, Hence, the name of the series, anxiety high, which is what we call the series.

David Boroughs [00:06:50]:
And it's really about introverted teens and them learning about introversion and and struggling to fit in in a world that's biased towards extroverted behaviors, much like the corporate world is, so is the the world of education. And we take in each each book, we we follow a student, a main character through a week in their school life. And in that week, they, you know, they they struggle. They learn. They grow. They get help. And at the end, they they grow. And at the same time, they help their school grow and become more more open to the idea that introverts and extroverts are equally important in the world.

David Boroughs [00:07:31]:
And as an introvert, you can be a powerful voice even if you're not a loud voice.

David Hall [00:07:37]:
Yeah. For sure. So, Josh, I know that when your dad was first introducing this to you, you know, you were kinda learning that you were an introvert as well. Did you even learn more about it as you were helping your dad or working together with your dad on these books?

Joshua Boroughs [00:07:54]:
Yeah. Definitely. Because at first, I think I had some the same kind of, like, initial idea of what an introvert is. It's, like, the same as everyone else has, which is kind of in incorrect almost. I assume that, like like, I enjoy, like, talking to my friends at school, and because of that, I thought I must not be an introvert because of that. But then through writing these books with my dad, I realized that there's actually much more nuance to it, and that's not actually like, introverts can be can be social and have a lot of friends and then still prefer to just go and be by themselves in the rooms at the end of the day, which is normally what I let prefer to do. So I do think I learned a lot about myself through writing these.

David Hall [00:08:33]:
Yeah. And, yes, we absolute that's a regular myth that we bust on this show. We absolutely have friends. We love friends. One thing I will say, though, is a lot of times it's not just about being alone after being with friends. It's going deeper with friends. We wanna have deeper conversations, and that's another thing that's misunderstood. So we want relationships just we don't wanna stay in the surface level talk for a long period of time.

David Hall [00:08:58]:
We wanna go deep with our friends, and typically, we might have a smaller circle, which there's nothing wrong with that. And that's yeah. Yeah. It's part of the name of your first book. There's nothing wrong with that. Was there anything else that you learned as you're writing with your dad?

Joshua Boroughs [00:09:12]:
Oh, I actually I discovered my my love of writing, actually, because the only time I had ever really written before this was for school, and I just if it's for school in general, normally, I don't like doing it. So I always thought I hated writing. But then while I was writing the first book, I realized this this is actually kinda fun. So since then, I've, I've actually started on my own, like, unrelated to what me and my dad are doing. I've tried writing a few a few ideas for books, like, a few short stories on my own just in my free time.

David Hall [00:09:41]:
Oh, that's great. That's great. And you know what? I mean, we have some superpowers as introverts, and you probably have a great imagination, and that really lends to writing. You know? That's awesome. I look forward to hearing

David Boroughs [00:09:54]:
more about that. Yeah. The I think, Josh, I think one of the issues is it's cool. The reinforcement you get is pretty standard. Right? So you you get feed critical feedback, and then you get a grade. And then that I I'm not sure that it really motivates students in in a way. But what but what I think happened is when we wrote the books, you know, you don't you don't get that. You had a lot of latitude in writing books.

David Boroughs [00:10:15]:
You can make a lot of mistakes. You know, it doesn't have to be perfect. And then you get a lot of positive feedback from people. Right? When people read it, they see the story. The feedback the feedback mechanism is much different, though. It is it's much more positive, I think, for us and for him, especially. And I think that's part of the reason why he probably changes perspective on writing.

David Hall [00:10:34]:
Yeah. And you also can write whatever you want. You know? And sometimes in school, it's like, well, you have to read this and write about this or or you have to read this. You know, so you have the freedom, which can also contribute to really learning to love it. Mhmm. Yeah. Alright. Well, let's talk about the first one.

David Hall [00:10:52]:
We did talk about it last time, but let's go a little deeper into it. So let's see. The first one, anxiety high volume 1, there's nothing wrong with you. So tell us a little bit about that and kind of the themes and and characters in the book.

David Boroughs [00:11:07]:
Yeah. Like, many introverts, I think you grow up being taught that you should be extroverted. Right? That that and you develop this feeling that there's something wrong with you. And so that's, you know, hence the title. You know, we're we're stating it flat out at the beginning. There's nothing wrong with you. But Niles Rivers with that in the Niles River, who's our main character in the first book, he struggles with that fact. He's been, you know, he's been re the idea that there's something wrong with him is being reinforced subconsciously or unconsciously to a great degree by his teachers and his friends.

David Boroughs [00:11:38]:
And whether it's through just the fact that they prefer extroverted behaviors or the fact that, you know, sometimes he's he's made fun of because he's quiet or he gets these strange nicknames or, you know, so there's some shame involved. There's some bullying involved. There's a lot of that that goes into him being taught and or coached into believing that there's something wrong with him. So through the course of the book, he really struggles with that. But with the help of a close friend, Sam, and some teachers and and and and his family, he's able to kinda learn. And it's not easy for him. He struggles as he goes through the book, but he's able to overcome that that the adversity that he's facing and grow from that. And that's kinda what the book's about at at its core.

David Boroughs [00:12:22]:
And then through the book, you know, he struggles with public speaking, and then there's a lot of parables or lessons that are embedded. So it's fiction, but I like to think of it as fiction with a purpose. Right? There's a purpose to our fiction. The story's fiction. The characters are fiction. But the struggles are real, the lessons are real, and they can be impactful to people. So our goal was to write a story that was interesting, that was meaningful, that moved people. But at the same time, when you put it down, you you made you think.

David Boroughs [00:12:51]:
Right? Whether you're an introvert or an extrovert or a parent or a teacher, you you you reassessed your belief system in in in a way that that changed kinda how you felt about personality type.

David Hall [00:13:03]:
Yeah. And so his friend Sam in the book, she's very confident. And, you know, I don't know if she's always been that way, but that's something I always want to say too is that although, you know, we have struggled, especially you and I, David, We have struggled and you thought something was wrong with us at some point, but there's some introverts that have all the introverted gifts, have all the introverted needs, but they've always been confident. And that's really nice to know. You know, it's not every introvert doesn't struggle. But for those that do, you know, there's definitely a lot of things that they can learn about introversion. Of course, that's that's where the book leads.

David Boroughs [00:13:45]:
And it was it was one of the key things with this with the with Sam as a character we wanted to put in the story was the fact that she she was introverted, but she wasn't that you know, she didn't meet all the stereotypical things you hear people feel or hear or think when they think introvert or that we teach a society. She she felt the same way on the side. She kinda struggled with the same things, but she definitely acted a bit differently externally. And there are reasons for that, but she's definitely you know, Niles is the main character. Sam's the character that really helps Niles grow, and she's the one that's really there for him. And they're and they're best friends in the book. So it really you know, we we progress this the story and this friendship, and we we we work through it as as we go. And Sam does a lot to help help to help Niles understand himself.

David Hall [00:14:33]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So, you know, learning that he could be a public speaker was was one thing. There was definitely another theme in the book with I'm thinking of, like, you know, as far as, like, working with the extroverted teacher. Tell us about that.

David Boroughs [00:14:49]:
You wanna, like, describe the, the example that we used in the the book?

David Hall [00:14:53]:
Mister Cobb?

Joshua Boroughs [00:14:54]:
Yeah. Sure.

David Boroughs [00:14:55]:
Mister Clark, at

Joshua Boroughs [00:14:57]:
at the start of the book, mister Cobb, which is Nyle's history teacher, is he's not trying to, but he unintentionally targets Niall's because he's an introvert. And in his class, he has these frequent Socratic discussions where he'll just present the topic and then all of the students have to just talk about it and then they're great on how much they can contribute to the conversation. And Niles has a problem with this because he has he works better like I feel most introverts do. He works better when he has time to think of ideas, and he could be more he feels he could be he could contribute more to the conversation if he got the the topic maybe the night before. And then also another problem he has is in the discussion, he can never get a word in because everyone else keeps talking over him and he doesn't feel may maybe he doesn't feel confident enough to speak over them. So one of the big, I guess, problems Niles has in the book is trying to to convince mister Cobb that he is unintentionally targeting introverts and making the class a lot harder and less enjoyable for them. And then he he's able to convince him through the help of through the help of the counselor, and the counselor kind of helps inform mister Cobb that you know, it's not like he's not, like, a bad person or anything because he's not trying to do it.

David Boroughs [00:16:22]:
But Right.

Joshua Boroughs [00:16:23]:
He he is still, like, throughout the book, doing a lot of things that are kind of unintentionally targeting Niles.

David Boroughs [00:16:30]:
In the investor cop character too, you know, he's definitely an antagonist in the first book. And we but we didn't wanna ride it in a way that stereotyped extroverts. So we have this growth. So Niles is the only one growing the book. Mister Cobb definitely grows as well. And but he struggles at the same time with ideas like why I treat everybody the same so I can't be biased. And we talk about that in the book that, you know, if you're treating everybody the same and you're treating everybody like extroverts, then maybe you're unintentionally biasing the class, you know, away or towards extroverts and away from from the introverted students. And he has to come to grips with that and realize that.

David Boroughs [00:17:08]:
And, we we had a one of we had a couple of therapists read this book because we always kinda wanna make sure we're we're we're we're kinda staying within the boundaries of what's what's, you know, right and and and intentional. And one of the things I remember about one of the therapists, he's like, he's like, I I really didn't like mister Cobb. You know? He he he and I didn't you know, I read that read the story, and I was just rooting against him. But by the end of the book, I was rooting for him. And at that moment, I kinda knew we had written that character correctly because we wanted that person to grow and become an ally at the end of the book, and which is what what we've we've tried to do. And I think we accomplished that.

David Hall [00:17:46]:
Yeah. Yeah. We'll talk about him again in a second probably. But that's the thing. Like, some people think, oh, well, introverts could just change into extroverts, but here's a really good example. And I I think I mentioned on the last show that I learned as a student, especially as a college student, that I was gonna be my best when I prepared ahead of time. That's how I and, you know, all the trying to change in the world is like, sometimes I don't have to think. If you you ask me a question and I'll just have an immediate response, but often, I'm gonna need to think about what you're asking me and it might take me a second.

David Hall [00:18:22]:
It might take me a few minutes. I might say, and I'll call you tomorrow. It's normal that we think deeply and think before we speak. And it's it's not something we can change, but it's also a gift because we are thinking deeply. And I'll tell you that, you know, I may not have the quickest answer, but my answer is gonna be well thought through because I'm a thinker. And it's a really good example that, you know, you need to let students prepare ahead prepare ahead of time. You need to give them space to think. I've had I've had 3 different episodes with teachers that have come up with some really good strategies that, you know, I can put those in the show notes where, you know, they came up with ways to get the best out of everybody, introverts and extroverts in the classroom.

David Hall [00:19:10]:
And that's that's what you're doing in this book too is showing an example that there are differences. And they're we all have strengths, but we have to understand what those needs are too.

David Boroughs [00:19:20]:
I think they're differences that not that that not that not everybody naturally understands or or or absorbs. Right? So if the world works for you and your personality type, you're probably less inclined to understand that it doesn't work for other people. Right? And mister Cobb is an example of that. The world works for him, and that's just kinda how he treats people. Right? He treats everybody the same, but he doesn't realize the world doesn't work for, you know, half his the world he's creating and the classroom he's creating isn't working for half his class.

David Hall [00:19:50]:
Yeah. Well said, David. And just remind me, so what how did Niles work it out with him? What did Niles do?

David Boroughs [00:19:59]:
Well, they were within the story, you know, Niles is he's he's struggling with the clash. Right? And and, the, the principal, missus Sweeney in the book, she she confront she she finally figured out what's going on and she confronts mister Cobb and gives him an ultimatum to a great degree. He he's like, no. You're gonna have to change it. I want you to talk to the counselor. And, you know, he does that, but the first his first reaction isn't oh, he he doesn't automatically understand it and get it. The first reaction is the sort of denial. And he goes in the class, and he's like, hey.

David Boroughs [00:20:30]:
You know, we can't talk about history today. We have to talk about this other thing. And I want you guys to help help you know, tell me how to run this class differently or better. And he puts he he does he puts Niles on the spot. Doesn't give Niles a chance to prepare or think. And Niles is is is struggling, and he's pushing Niles. And at the end of the class, Niles just still hasn't given me the answer. So he's like, okay.

David Boroughs [00:20:54]:
Niles is gonna give the whole class homework. He kinda throws it and push the onus on Niles and says, you all have to write this letter or this note to be emailed to me by the end of the day with 3 suggestions of how we can change the class to make it more fair or more equal equal for all personality types, which everybody's kinda aggravated Niles because they all have to do homework. But it kinda helps Niles because he gets to leave and think about what he really needs to say. And he puts his thoughts into into into words, and those words are really impactful and end up touching mister Cobb and and and really are the catalyst to him changing, I think.

David Hall [00:21:32]:
Yeah. Yeah. So brilliant. So what's the name of volume number 2?

Joshua Boroughs [00:21:38]:
It's You Are Not, Anxiety High. You Are Not Alone.

David Boroughs [00:21:43]:
Yeah. It it was interesting because the, one of the or both therapists that we showed the book to, volume 12, the other piece of feedback they gave us is that Niall's support system at home is too good. Now he gets too much help. And the grandpa character in volume 1 is really important. It it it's a there's a lot of personal Easter eggs in there that we and we didn't wanna change it and make it different than it is. It was important for us for Niles to have a strong support system. And that's kinda was the the the the idea to write the second book about a character that doesn't have that support system at home. And we we did had enough time to introduce that concept within book 1, and we do that at the end.

David Boroughs [00:22:22]:
So Ruby Ruby Noll is the character. We we walk her through a it's a few weeks later in this progression at at Jane Piety Academy or in anxiety high. And for the forever, she felt like she was the only person like her. You know, she was in her own world. She was introvert, and she struggled at home because her mom and her sister are really extroverted people, and they don't get her at all. And they're just pushing her all the time to to to basically be act more extroverted. So the book is about Ruby, and it takes it through her week and her struggles with her mom and her sister. And her mom and sister grow through the book, and Ruby grows as well.

David Boroughs [00:23:01]:
And she and a lot of the same characters are there. Niles is there. Sam is there. Miss missus Sweeney, Castle Rawson, all those kind of key characters are still playing key roles in the story. So there's a lot of continuity from book 1 to book 2. In fact, you know, you the stories really connect well together. They're the lessons from book 1 will apply to book 2, and there are a lot of references back and forth. But but it it's really about her learning that I'm not the only person that that feels the way I feel.

David Boroughs [00:23:28]:
In fact, about half the population probably has the same preferences as I do towards introversion or leaning towards the introverted in the personality spectrum. And she learns that at school with a lot of support and makes a lot of progress at school, but still struggles at home and and really has to figure out a some way to kinda communicate with their mother, and their mother has to figure out a way to communicate with her. And we really dive into that that that that parent that extroverted parent, introverted child relationship in in book in book 2. And over the time, you know, Ruby progresses from this feeling of, I'm the only person like me. There's nobody to help me, and I'm alone in this world. Even the people who love me don't get me to maybe I do have a support system that's there, and maybe I'm not as alone as I thought, and and there are people I can lean on. And and I can develop these deeper relationships you were talking about earlier. Don't need a 1,000 friends.

David Boroughs [00:24:23]:
I just need a few, and I just need a few close ones that I can that I can love. And I need my mom to understand.

David Hall [00:24:28]:
Yeah. I picked up on that right away. So it's it's it's that old, like, why can't you be more like your brother? Why can't you be more like your sister? And that can be so painful when the understanding isn't there. And I think that's what you've done with this book and the, you know, the book you you have written on your own, David. You know, it's like we all need to understand each other, introverts and extroverts. You know? It's not just one or the other. It's everybody needs to understand. And it yeah.

David Hall [00:24:57]:
It's it could be so tough. Like, the mother is like, what's wrong with you? You know?

David Boroughs [00:25:02]:
Yeah. Why you know, it's things like, who who doesn't like to be with people? Who doesn't like to to talk in front of group? You know, the people that kinda like that and get energy from that is helping them understand that there's a group of people who who are kinda polar opposites, and and there's nothing wrong with either group. We go way out of our way to, you know, to say that personality there's there's no wrong personality type. Whether you're extroverted or introverted or somewhere in between, you're normal. Your personality type is normal, and you're both needed in a world in a highly functioning highly developed functioning world. And we believe that. Right? And that and and all we're trying to do through these books is really raise awareness that there is a bias, and it's biased towards extroversion. And we need to kinda understand that and work to kinda level the playing field and help create a world where introverts don't have to act extroverted to succeed.

David Boroughs [00:25:54]:
They can leverage their introverted strengths, be introverted, and still be very successful in a world that values them.

David Hall [00:26:01]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And I I probably said this last time too, but I love that you're are writing these geared in the high school environment because I wish that more was known when I was going to school many, many years ago. Right? Like, right now, I totally understand my strengths, what I need. I'm very confident. I'm not shy. I was. I was shy.

David Hall [00:26:27]:
I I did lack confidence. But for me, it was just understanding introversion. And when I was a kid, it wasn't talked about. So, Josh, what's your perspective? Are people aware of introversion, extroversion at the high school level? I'm sure there's still a lot of work to do.

Joshua Boroughs [00:26:47]:
I that is a hard question to answer because I think it just for me, just in my the way my life has progressed, it hasn't, like, come up, like, as much as it seems like it has for you guys because I think I go to a pretty a pretty good school about that. So I think at my school, at least, they're good about it. They're good about adapting to what you to what you need and what your strengths are. But in the past, I just have to. Like like with Niall's, I in the past, I actually based one of Niall's scenes in the first book off of something I had to go tell my teacher because we were having Socratic seminars, and I couldn't get a word in just like Niall's. So I suggested to her. Maybe we should have a system where someone can, like, raise their hand, and then they'll get to speak within, like, 1 or 2 more people. And then she she implemented that, and then I was able to talk a lot more and contribute a lot more to our discussions.

David Hall [00:27:38]:
Yeah. And, again, when I was younger, it wasn't really understood, and differences do exist in families. So I'll tell you, and I might have said this last time, my wife is introverted, but we have 2 extroverted kids and 1 introverted kid. And, you know, hopefully, I've given them a better understanding and more acceptance. You know? And you have a you have a dad that understands introversion and extroversion, but that wasn't the case in the in this second volume with Ruby. You know? Her her mom and her sister's like, hey. You know, you should be more like us. Something is wrong with you.

David Boroughs [00:28:15]:
It is. It's it's one of those kind of strange things too, because as an introverted parent who struggled in a world that favors extroverted behaviors, you kinda don't want your child to have to go through that. So I have to be careful sometimes because I'll find myself acting like an extroverted parent. I'll find myself trying to push Zach or Josh to do stuff they don't wanna do because I know it's gonna be helpful for them in the long run if they just do it. It's not the right thing to do. Right? But as a as a as a parent, I'm just I'm just trying to make sure they don't have to struggle and go to that pain. And what I have to do is take a step back and say, look. You know, that's really not what I need to be doing here.

David Boroughs [00:28:52]:
It's really hard. And I think as an introvert, I'm I'm surprised that I do this, but I think it's just this gut this this reaction to all the the the things you struggle with over over your life. And you really have to let them learn a lot. You have to really find this support system where they feel loved and they're safe, and they you know, you can talk about things, and you can let them go to the room if they need to go to the room and be be quiet. You can let them if they don't wanna, you know, run for student council and and and have a ton of leadership, you know, I'll be or or or open or kinda out their leadership positions for their colleague resume, that's that's fine. And you have to accept that. Right? Because that's not who they are. And if you full force them to do that, they're really not leveraging your strengths.

David Boroughs [00:29:39]:
And what you you're really doing is you're kinda falling into a trap of creating of of of perpetuating this bias that you're working so hard to end. So as an introvert, I think there's a trap there that we all have to look out for as introverted parents as well. So it's not just extroverted parents, I think.

David Hall [00:29:54]:
Yeah. Yeah. And introverts, parent introverts, introverts, parent extroverts, and vice versa. And there needs to just be a lot more discussion and understanding of personalities all around.

David Boroughs [00:30:06]:
I would agree. Absolutely agree with that. So and hopefully through these books I mean, I and I think these books, you know, if you're a teacher or a parent reading it, it may it'll make you think. So if you if you're an extroverted parent, extroverted teacher, there's a lot of cool lessons. If you're introverted parent, introverted teacher, I think you learn a lot. And then as a as a student or a person, as you said earlier, there's not you know, this is not something they're teaching in schools. They're not really talking about personality type. So learning these lessons well before you get into corporate America or the real world, I think is is will will serve everyone a lot of positive or or give them a lot of, it it will help them a lot because if if you know, for me, it took me 30 years to figure this all out, and that's not efficient.

David Boroughs [00:30:53]:
And nobody really wants that. And I don't want that for Josh. I want Josh to kinda understand what he's up against and be able and have the skills and and be able to feel comfortable being an introvert, be able to leverage the strength as an introvert, and and be happy in his life. And and and and, you know, there will be struggles along the way, but it's definitely better if you're if you're if you know about them and you're prepared for them, I think. Yeah. And even even as I'm thinking about the characters,

David Hall [00:31:19]:
you know, if they're real life characters, they probably still have a lot of learning to do. And but at least they're starting at the right spot. You know? Because and it took me a long time to figure this all out too. But I'm still learning and growing, but now I know what my core is. Like, you know, here's where I'm I'm really good at this thing. I'm really good at these things. I do need time to think. I do need some time alone.

David Hall [00:31:43]:
You know? And and just understanding all that makes all the difference. And I definitely related to the characters Nile and Ruby, and there was a there was a part and I don't know if bullying was quite it wasn't maybe that strong, but there were some girls that were giving Ruby a hard time. And, you know, they're kinda saying to her, there's something wrong with you. When somebody's telling you that and, you know, you have and, you know, we're deep thinkers. Sometimes you can get really tongue tied. You know? If someone's if someone's saying there's something wrong with you and you're not thinking on your feet because that's often not our gift, you can really get tongue tied. And I just really related to that. And I I I felt that pain like, oh, yeah.

David Hall [00:32:23]:
That's that's terrible. I I've been in that situation.

David Boroughs [00:32:27]:
I know. And, hopefully, you know, what we wrote represents, you know, real real world scenarios even though it's fiction. And we tried to create these these situations that are real, but at the same time, you know, push the the curve to grow. And in in doing that, you have to kind of portray, you know, people are not nice to each other all the time. And, you know, we try to do it in a way that we're respectful. At the same time, we try to, you know, be honest about it.

David Hall [00:32:53]:
Oh, yeah.

David Boroughs [00:32:56]:
And yeah. I I mean, I think we've all at least I've been in I know I've been in those situations before as well. And it's something you you you just have to work through. But it I think it's good visual being able to visualize it. So reading a bullet like this as a student, you visualize kinda these scenarios even though they're not if even if they're not happening to you. So if it does happen to you, you'd be a little bit more prepare prepared on on how to handle it. But, yeah, those are always a little bit difficult for me to write because you're you just kinda have to create you're having to create this character that's not always positive. And and, but it it I think they're critical and necessary for the story line for sure.

David Hall [00:33:32]:
Yeah. And so Ruby's part of the big part of the story is she's trying to create an introvert club. And, you know, it ends up being an introvert and extrovert club really just talking about what we're talking about. Like, let's let's learn about all of our personalities. Do you either of you have any kind is that a real thing? Have you seen any have you actually seen a personality type club?

David Boroughs [00:33:55]:
What about a club that when I worked in in corporate America? So for the longest time, I, you know, I struggle as an introvert. But I you know, at one time, I thought I had it figured out, and I thought I was doing fine. And then all of a sudden, something would come up and and I would be you know, you you would that whole visibility card be played against me again. And I'm like, you know, what else do I have to do to be more visible? I'm doing all these things. And I've been working for 25 years. I mean, what's going on? So that was about the time that workplace, which is Facebook's kind of work Facebook's tool for the for the work environment came out, and we had this this on brand virtual ability to communicate with each each other. So at the time, I created a group called Quiet Leadership within the company I work for. And we started this conversation, and I was surprised that we quickly you know, people started joining, and we quickly had several 1,000 people.

David Boroughs [00:34:45]:
So we started writing articles, and it was all within internal company and narrating these discussions and having these conversations about it. And that's kind of was the genesis of of of this idea, at least in my mind, of of this club. And the idea and we worked really hard for it not to be an introverted type community. It had to be a community that had extroverts as well because in corporate America, in a lot of cases, a lot of the extroverts have the power, and we needed the people with the power as part of the conversation. So we felt strongly that it had to be a conversation that really brought people together and let let extroverts be extroverts and let introverts be introverts, but at the same time, open their eyes to what each group needed. Right? So if you're gonna have a meeting, for example, in in a workplace, you need to let the introverts know what the topics are ahead of time. Let them think about it, and then let them contribute ahead as well. And at the same time, if you have a preread and you bring a bunch of experts into a meeting, you just can't say, oh, we had a preread.

David Boroughs [00:35:44]:
You've done your preread. We're not gonna no someone not gonna talk about it. You do a disservice to them. So you really have to think about your audience being diverse. So you have to have the preread. At the same time, though, when you get to the meeting, you gotta talk about the preread because that's where the experts kinda get into their lean into it and get into there. And at the end of the meeting, you know, you needed a time for for for introverts to soak on it and think about it a while. So if you make all your decisions at the meeting, it serves the extroverts well, but it doesn't necessarily serve the introvert.

David Boroughs [00:36:12]:
So it's rough thinking about having this diverse group of people that's made up of both basically half introverts and half half extroverts in creating an environment that really works for both of them. And and I a lot of those things we did within my workspace, and we kind of built some of those ideas into this club and and and wanted it to be more than just introverts coming together and and and talking to introverts. We wanted it to be a really a personality type club where regardless of what the problem you had, you're you're a part of it. And I think that store that storyline plays well plays well too because the core group of friends friends that Ruby and Sam have have some extroverts in them, and they're close friends. And and my experience as well tells me that some of my closest friends at work were extroverts, And the fact that their strengths were different than mine made our relationship and and our ability to create value much greater when we work together than it was when we just did our own thing. So what they did well, I didn't do as well. But what I did well, I did they didn't do as well. But we came together, and we we truly had this intent to, you know, to to work together and and be partners.

David Boroughs [00:37:20]:
It was always much better. So we tried to build that into the books.

David Hall [00:37:24]:
Yeah. And along those lines, as I was reading it, so I'm thinking, okay. Ruby understands herself, and she kinda knows what she needs, what her strengths are. But in this story, it's not enough because her mother and her sister, other people at school don't understand her. And so it's not enough just for the introvert to know their strengths and needs. It's so important for and, I think, of course, that's the work that you do and you've done. It's important for everybody to know because she still had struggles even though she had accepted who she was. And acceptance isn't exactly the word stronger than that for me.

David Hall [00:38:03]:
Yeah. She really embraced who she was, but still she struggled because other people didn't understand introversion.

David Boroughs [00:38:10]:
And it was that were those people closest to her. Right? The people that she loved the most, that loved her the most, and they didn't they weren't they weren't connecting at that core level and or and understanding each other. In fact, some of the things they were doing were probably pushing each other apart unintentionally. They thought they were helping, but they you know, some of the things they were doing weren't really weren't really positive. And it it it it hurt both of them right at the end of the day. They were both hurting from it. It wasn't like, you know, the mother and Ruby it wasn't like they one was totally oblivious. They both saw each other's pain.

David Boroughs [00:38:40]:
They just didn't know how to communicate and work through it. And they learn that's part of what they learn as they progress through through the book.

Joshua Boroughs [00:38:47]:
And we've been hearing people say that they like our second book over our first one, and I think that's a a big reason why. Because in the first book I'm not saying Niles doesn't have problems, but outside of mister Cobb, most people accept him for who he is, but Ruby probably has a more a more realistic life of the difficulty it is to get people to accept and love you as an introvert.

David Hall [00:39:12]:
Yeah. Absolutely. I would agree with that. So what what do you want to people to take away, you know, people in high school, parents, teachers, from both books, either book? What are what are what are the major themes that you each would like to see people walk away with?

David Boroughs [00:39:33]:
I think it's this realization that, you know, it's realization that personality type is a real dimension of diversity. Right? It it is it is part of what makes us unique and interesting, and it affects all of this. So right? So regardless of your gender, your race, or whatever, still half of each each of those groups are half introverted roughly or mean to be introverted into the spectrum and and happily and just extroverted into the spectrum. So it's kind of globally applicable to all groups. And if if we create an environment that really only leverages the strengths of extroverts and even teaches our introverts to act extroverted, we're we're doing the world a disservice because there's a whole skill set, a whole strength set that comes with the introverts. But if you just let them leverage those skills to do more than just act extroverted to fit in, they're gonna add a lot more value than we realize they do. But they're gonna do it in a different way. They're not gonna do it like extroverts.

David Boroughs [00:40:26]:
You're not gonna be the loudest voice in the room. They're not gonna be the person who stands up and delivers the TED talk. They're gonna do it differently, and but they're gonna add a ton of value while they're doing it. And what they're doing is just as valuable as the TED talk.

David Hall [00:40:40]:
Yeah. Hey, David. You've done a lot of work with belonging, and there's so many factors in that. But if you ignore this one, people can definitely feel like they don't belong if you don't understand personality types.

David Boroughs [00:40:52]:
We we're gonna say in the book too. It's this idea of and when in in all 3 of the books, they kinda have this longing theme. Right? It's you know, your diversity you have a you can have a diverse group. You can have an inclusive group where where inclusion is expected or is expected, where people are expected to participate, but you can still have you can have both those things instead of people that don't feel like they belong in the group because of how you try to manage diversity and how you try to manage inclusion. And it really boils down to you don't you you you haven't created an environment where people can be authentic, where they can be their selves, and and you have to do that for them to thrive. And when you can do that, whether it's in the school or in the workplace, more people will feel like they belong, and they'll be happier. They'll be more productive, and you'll you'll you'll you'll see more success. I I absolutely believe that.

David Hall [00:41:41]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Alright. So, Josh, what do you want people to take away from your books?

Joshua Boroughs [00:41:46]:
Well, we it's for everyone, but we mainly targeted it towards high schoolers. So I think it's just, like, if there are any high schoolers whose situations are similar to Miles and Ruby, and they haven't had the the realizations that they they get throughout the book. I just want them to the best case scenario is they they read the books and then the the message, which is the subtitle of each book, there's nothing wrong with you or you are not alone. That just really sticks with them and and helps them form bonds with other people who also experience this.

David Hall [00:42:21]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Alright. So when can we expect volume 3?

David Boroughs [00:42:26]:
Well, we we we we purposely wrote books during the summer. So it hasn't been a fast process because with Josh in school, I didn't want him burned with the extra the extra workload of writing books during during the school year. But we have to we haven't really talked about it. Right now, we're just trying to get book 2 out in the world, which is a lot of work in itself. We'll have to sit down and and, you know, come up with the brain you know, the brainstorm the next book and and and figure out you know, Josh going to college next year presents another kind of dilemma on on how we manage this. In my in my in my mind, it'd be great if we could do all 4 of them together, and we'll but we'll have to see how it all plays out. Maybe we'll do them quicker than we did the last time, but we will have to see. So I say I would expect volume 3 until next summer, but you never you never know.

David Hall [00:43:12]:
Okay. But you did you did put it out there. So you said anxiety high volume 3 and break embrace your strengths. And I love that because that's that's what it's really all about. We need to understand what we need, but there's so many gifts that come from introversion. It's not a less than thing. We're not trying to become extroverts. We introverts are deep thinkers.

David Hall [00:43:34]:
We have great imaginations, and the world needs our great imaginations. And, honestly, we also enjoy having great imaginations. So looking forward to volume 3.

David Boroughs [00:43:46]:
Yeah. And, you know, those are the kind of 4 themes in my life was first, I had to realize there was nothing wrong with me. And then I had to realize that, you know, the world is there's about half the people in the world that kinda feel and and act and have the premises I do. And then I really had to, you know, I had I had to resist this idea that I needed to fit in as an extrovert, and that was tough. There was a lot of pressure to be an extrovert or act act extroverted. And, you know, I really had to embrace my strengths as an introvert. And that's when I became success I really became successful. I really became happy in what I was doing in in work.

David Boroughs [00:44:18]:
And then the 4th the 4th volume that we've talked about is this idea around advocating for yourself and advocating for others, because that's something as an introvert, I absolutely struggled with my entire life. But giving permit people permission to say, it's okay to talk about your work. It's okay because your work deserves it. Right? It's okay to, advocate for yourself and what you're what's going on. And maybe you do maybe you're you learn to do that by advocating for your friends and your coworkers and your and your and your and the people in your classroom that are introverted and helping them get the recognition that they need. So those are the 4 themes which are really kind of common themes for all introverts in all cultures, but that's that's the idea of the books.

David Hall [00:45:01]:
Yeah. Very good. Very good. And, again, I mean, can be beneficial to those that are still in high school or college or teachers and parents, and you bring you bring all those different groups into these both of these books.

David Boroughs [00:45:15]:
We could probably write this we probably could use similar characters and and put and move the the setting from a school to a to a corporate environment to a work environment and write very similar stories, and it would work in both way. It would work in both places. So

David Hall [00:45:28]:
Yeah. Or or Niles and Ruby go to college. You know?

David Boroughs [00:45:31]:
Oh, there you still. Have to come up with a new name for that.

David Hall [00:45:35]:
Yeah. Josh will have more experience with that next year. So alright. Josh and David, what else is there anything else you wanna add?

David Boroughs [00:45:42]:
I thank you for having the for giving us the opportunity to talk about again, to talk about the books and for giving us a platform and kinda share with people what they're what they're about. And, you know, our goal is really to get people to read them and to share them with others because I think that's kinda how these books really these grassroot grassroot books really take off is when people share them with other people. So please do that. If you read it and you like it and you love it, tell other people about it so they can kind of benefit from it as well. And then I, as a parent, I always kinda like to end this with this idea that regardless of who reads this book, it's been a worthwhile endeavor for me because the fact that my teenage son's willingness spend the time with me to write a book and do something that not easy to do, that takes a lot of interaction and struggle and a lot of time as a parent, it really is is uplifting. And I I really, you know, always like to tell Josh that I appreciate it more than he's really ever gonna understand. And he might make me not understand it until he's a parent himself. So I'm truly appreciative that he's been willing to join me as a partner as a true partner on the journey to create these books.

David Boroughs [00:46:47]:
So

David Hall [00:46:48]:
Alright. Final word, Josh?

Joshua Boroughs [00:46:51]:
Yeah. Just if if what we were talking about today sounds interesting to you, then you can buy Anxietyi High on Amazon.

David Hall [00:46:59]:
Okay. And is there anywhere else, David, that people can go to find out more about you and your work?

David Boroughs [00:47:05]:
Yeah. I think I think the maybe the first like Josh said, the first place, if you if you're looking to to read it, there's a go to Amazon. You could type in anxiety high. The books will come up. They're set up as a series. You can see both of them, and then if we add 3 or 4, we'll add them to the series as well. So that's a great place to go. And there's there's some synopsis, and you get an idea about what they're what what's there.

David Boroughs [00:47:24]:
You can actually do read excerpts within within Amazon so you can kinda get a feel for what's in the book. Also, another great place to go is our website. It's called introvertsandbelonging.com. And that way, you can leave links back to Amazon so you can if if you don't wanna remember anything else, just remember introvertsandbelonging.com, and that'll take you to Amazon. It'll also take you to my LinkedIn home page where I've written tons of articles about introversion. It'll take you to my to my my nonfiction book as well. And then within within LinkedIn and from that web page, you can get to some free excerpts for both volume 1 and volume 2. So you can read a couple chapters and get a feel for what what, you know, what what the who the characters are, kinda what they're dealing with.

David Boroughs [00:48:07]:
And then you do get to those through LinkedIn. The Easiest way might be to go through the links in the website. But those are kinda the kinda key places you go to get the information. So David Burrows on LinkedIn, enter words and belonging dot com, or search for anxiety high on Amazon dot com.

David Hall [00:48:23]:
Alright. Thank you both. You're doing great work, great books. Also, just you're helping with that message that there is nothing wrong with you, that introverts and extroverts, we all have great strengths. Just you might go about things differently, and it's all good. So thanks again to both of you.

David Boroughs [00:48:40]:
Thank you.

Joshua Boroughs [00:48:40]:
Thanks for having us.

David Hall [00:48:42]:
Thank you so much for joining me today. I look forward to further connecting with you. Reach out at david@quietandstrong.com, or check out the quietandstrong.com website, which includes blog posts and links to social media channels. Send me topics or guests you would like to see on the show. If you're interested in getting to know yourself better, there's now a free type finder personality assessment on the Quiet and Strong website. This free assessment will give you a brief report, including the 4 letter Myers Briggs code, and you can also have the option of purchasing the full report if you'd like to learn more. I'll add a link to the show notes. So many great things about being an introvert, and we need those to be understood.

David Hall [00:49:23]:
Get to know your introverted strengths and needs, and be strong.