Ep 263 - Creating Space for Creativity and Innovation with guest Melissa Dinwiddie

What happens to our creativity when risk-taking is discouraged and perfection becomes the goal? In this episode of The Quiet And Strong Podcast, host David Hall sits down with innovation and culture strategist Melissa Dinwiddie to explore how we can reclaim our natural creativity and create space for innovation—no matter where we are on the introvert/extrovert spectrum.

Listeners will discover why creativity often feels stifled by traditional systems, and what leaders and teams can do to reignite their creative spark. Melissa Dinwiddie shares her personal journey from doubting her creativity to becoming a professional artist and innovation coach. 

Whether you’re an introvert wanting to reconnect with your creativity or a leader seeking practical tools for building more innovative, empowered teams, this conversation offers both inspiration and actionable steps. Tune in to learn how to give yourself—and those you work with—permission to play, take risks, learn faster, and continually grow.

Get ready to embrace your creative side… and be strong.

Episode Link: QuietandStrong.com/263

Melissa Dinwiddie is an innovation and culture strategist who helps analytical thinkers tap into their creativity to solve impossible problems.

A Juilliard-trained dancer, professional artist for 15 years, and performing jazz singer-songwriter turned keynote speaker, she’s the author of The Creative Sandbox Way™ and Innovation at Work, and creator of the Create the Impossible™ framework—a three-step approach to building the mindsets that drive innovation: Play Hard, Make Crap, and Learn Fast.

Her experiences designing and facilitating programs for teams at organizations like Google, Meta, and Salesforce informed the development of her framework, which blends art, play, and communication to help leaders build creative confidence, collaboration, and resilience.

Connect with Melissa: Website | LinkedIn | Instagram | Youtube

Transcript

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:00:00]:
We come into the world just fully creative and excited and curious. And what happens to people is we put them through this system, school and just society in general, that doesn't encourage that, but instead squashes it and shames people for taking risks. If you don't get something right, right away, then you're going to get squashed. And what we need in order to really help people's creativity, natural creativity, flourish and grow and get stronger is to encourage that risk-taking, to give people permission rather than to hold them back and push them down.

David Hall [00:00:56]:
Hello and welcome to episode 263 of the Quiet and Strong podcast, especially for introverts. I'm your host, David Hall, and the creator of quietandstrong.com. This is a weekly podcast dedicated to understanding the strengths and needs of introverts along with strategies for success. Introversion is not something to fix, but to be embraced. Normally we'll air each episode on a Monday. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite platform, leave a review or rating. That would mean a lot to me and also help others find the show. Tell a friend about the podcast, help get the word out there that introversion is a beautiful thing.

David Hall [00:01:35]:
Melissa Dinwiddie is an innovation and culture strategist who helps analytical thinkers tap into their creativity to solve impossible problems. A Juilliard-trained dancer, professional artist for 15 years, and performing jazz singer-songwriter turned keynote speaker, she's the author of The Creative Sandbox Way and Innovation at Work and creator of Create the Impossible Framework, a 3-step approach to building the mindsets that drive innovation: play hard, make crap, learn fast. Her experiences designing and facilitating programs for teams at organizations like Google, Meta, and Salesforce informed the development of her framework, which blends art, play, and communication to help leaders build creative confidence, collaboration, and resilience. All right. Well, welcome to the Quiet and Strong Podcast, Melissa. Melissa, it's so good to have you on today.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:02:35]:
Thanks for having me, David. It's a delight to be with you.

David Hall [00:02:38]:
Yeah. We're going to talk about your new book and get into that, but first, just tell us a little bit more about yourself and your journey to the work that you're doing now.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:02:47]:
Ah, yeah. Well, it's been quite a journey. Definitely wasn't a straight line, which is probably true for most creative paths. I was actually a really super creative kid. I love to draw. I love to sing, all the, all the stuff. Like that came really naturally, as it does, you know, for, for kids in general. But as early as I would say first grade, I started noticing other kids' work, and I started comparing my own work really negatively.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:03:29]:
And by around age 13, I really bought into this story that I wasn't good enough in art and music. And pretty soon I concluded that I just wasn't creative. That's like, that's the conclusion that I drew. And by college, I, and I stopped making art, I stopped making music, stopped doing all the, all those, you know, All those things that we label in society as, you know, creative. And by college, I completely bought into the lie that some people, they're the creative ones, and everybody else, they're not. And I was in that everybody else category. I lumped myself in that category. I saw myself as decidedly not creative.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:04:24]:
And then the turning point came in my late 20s when I stumbled into a calligraphy class and it was like this light bulb went off and I fell in love with it and I started practicing obsessively. And within a year I was doing paid commission work. First, you know, just for some friends who paid me just a little bit of money. And eventually I, I, I kind of turned it into— first it was a hobby business, and then it turned into my full-time paid career, turned into a 15-year career as a professional calligrapher and ketubah artist. But even as a professional artist, I really struggled. I was so focused on making perfect pieces for clients, and I was so stuck in this story that every piece I made had to be amazing, it had to make money, that I got really burned out and I lost the joy in the process. It became just a job. And I got really mired in perfectionism and, and stuck in that same comparison trap that had really had me in its clutches when I was a little kid.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:05:40]:
And the real transformation happened when I realized that I needed to reconnect with Play the same thing that I had been doing when I was, you know, just a little kid. And I started setting aside just 15 minutes a day, 15 minutes a day for what I call creative sandbox time. That is the time and space when you can just be like a little kid playing in a sandbox, when it's not about money, it's not about impressing people, it's not about winning awards. It's just about exploring, about making messes, and about having fun. And this little teeny tiny commitment really transformed my relationship with creativity, and it ultimately led me to develop the Creative Sandbox Way Guideposts, which are the scaffolding of my book, and which eventually evolved into the Create the Impossible Framework 3-step framework that I now use with companies, and that forms the backbone of my second book that just came out, Innovation at Work. And what really fascinates me is that the same principles that helped me break through my own creative blocks are precisely what helps teams at places like Meta and Google and Salesforce become more innovative. The obstacles are really the same. It's just at a really different scale.

David Hall [00:07:09]:
Yeah. Yeah, we're definitely going to unpack all of that. And I mean, what are the messages? Because I— you're not— you're definitely not alone. There's lots of people that were creative when they were kids and they lose it because there's messages that, oh, well, you know, you're not as good as this person or that person. Where are these messages coming from?

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:07:29]:
Well, I can tell you, I have a really clear memory of being in first grade, and it might— maybe I don't remember if it was first grade or second grade. I remember the teacher— I felt so proud because the teacher read a story that I wrote. We, we had some assignment to, you know, write a story, and I wrote a story about a lion. And, you know, I felt like, wow, I'm going to be an author, you know. And she started reading my story, but it was really a way to teach a lesson to the kids about about punctuation because she read my story and I hadn't put in enough commas. And so she read it without, you know, without any pauses. And I remember the feeling of my face as, you know, all the blood just rushed into my face as I was so humiliated and shamed by this teacher reading my story in a way that I at first I thought, oh, She's, you know, she's calling me out as what a good story, what a good, you know, writer I am. But in fact, it was a way to show how terrible I was at punctuation.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:08:41]:
And I was so shamed in that moment. And I also remember, you know, in kindergarten when, when teachers would say, you know, ask a question and everybody raises their hand. 'cause they're so excited to participate. And by first or second grade, we quickly learn that if you raise your hand and you don't have the right answer, you get shamed. And this is how we're trained in schools, which is not a way to encourage people to exercise their muscles of creativity because muscles of creativity require risk-taking. And when we shame people and beat them down for taking risks, that is, that's quashing creativity. We come into the world just fully creative and excited and curious. And what happens to people is we put them through this system, school, and just society in general, that doesn't encourage that, but instead squashes it.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:09:50]:
And shames people for taking risks. If you don't get something right right away, then you're going to get squashed. And what we need in order to really help people's creativity, natural creativity, flourish and grow and get stronger is to encourage that risk-taking, to give people permission rather than to hold them back and push them down. And we just all get held back and pushed down. And that's what school systems do to people. And I mean, it's not just the school system, but that is a big place where it happens.

David Hall [00:10:29]:
Yeah. Yeah. We're definitely going to get more into this as we discuss your book. But first, you were on the Quiet and Strong podcast and you are a fellow introvert. So when did you figure out that you were an introvert?

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:10:41]:
You know, it's, it's a really excellent question. I am not entirely sure, but I suspect that it's when I first took the Myers-Briggs assessment, which was probably in high school, you know, maybe junior high. I don't actually remember. And I have never been really strong on the IE spectrum. You know, I've never been like you know, they give you— I'm just visualizing the, you know, the results of the assessments that I've taken. And they show you where you are on the IE spectrum. And I, like my husband, I think is probably quite far over on the IE. He's far on the I.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:11:29]:
And I've always been closer to the cusp. But I have never identified as an extrovert. However, because I'm a performer, because— which is not— which is more a more recent thing in my life. Well, I was in a couple of musicals in college, and then I started singing in my late 30s. So it's definitely a much more recent thing, and it's basically an adult thing in my life. But because I'm a performer and because for my job, I am often in front of the room. And because I have learned to be, express my, or present as pretty comfortable with people in a variety of situations, regardless of how I might be feeling internally, Nobody believes I'm an introvert.

David Hall [00:12:33]:
Yeah.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:12:33]:
People argue with me, David.

David Hall [00:12:36]:
I believe it. And, you know, basically there is a spectrum, but it's not about liking people, not liking people, being comfortable in the spotlight. It's not about that. It's just that we're deep thinkers. And sometimes people are just confident their whole lives. As introverts, they're outspoken, they know what they need. But really, I'm speaking to those that don't understand their introversion and want to do things. Maybe they want to sing, you know, maybe they want to perform and, and that's coming up with strategies, which I'm sure you have done strategies like, okay, how am I going to be successful at doing this? And it doesn't make you an extrovert, although that's, that's funny when people try and guess, but it's that they don't know what introversion really is.

David Hall [00:13:27]:
You know, it's we're deep thinkers, which is a gift. Lots of strengths come from that. And many performers are introverts.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:13:37]:
Yes, yes, absolutely. Well, the other thing is, I have also— the way that I have often heard introversion talked about is that introverts get their energy from more being in, being alone or being in small groups and are more drained in like crowds and being in, you know, large groups of people. And that definitely defines, you know, me. I spend all day long alone except when I'm out, you know, with a client or, you know, performing or leading a session or something like that. And I'm perfectly happy with that situation. I have extrovert friends for whom that would not work at all. I do not like big crowds. Like New Year's Eve in Times Square would be my— that would be the last place I would want to go for New Year's Eve.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:14:44]:
You know, that's not my jam.

David Hall [00:14:46]:
Yeah. And it's all about discovering what does drain us, how we get our energy back. And yeah, I— the definition— I, I don't get drained by all people. I get drained by certain situations and certain people.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:14:59]:
Yeah.

David Hall [00:14:59]:
But again, even some situations you enjoy could be draining. Like, I, I recorded a podcast earlier today and It was great, but afterward I needed a break, you know, I needed to recharge.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:15:13]:
I totally, I totally relate to that.

David Hall [00:15:15]:
So it's all about understanding it, like what's going to be draining and then how do I best recharge? That's, that's one of the good strategies to be successful as an introvert.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:15:26]:
Yeah. You know, it makes me think about when I was a teenager and just, I did not have any of this figured out yet. And, you know, as a teenager. The cool thing was to, you know, big loud parties and big loud concerts. And my very first concert was an arena stadium. You know, unfortunately, I didn't understand that it was going to blast my eardrums. I probably have hearing loss as a result of that big concert. I went to a lot of big concerts because that was the thing.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:16:04]:
That everybody did. And it wasn't until I finally went to a much smaller, more intimate concert when I realized, oh wow, this, this is my jam. This is what I like. I want more of this. That other kind of concert, that's really not— it's really not what I enjoy. Yeah, I have to experience it to realize what, you know, what gave me energy and what drained me, drained my energy.

David Hall [00:16:36]:
Yeah. And again, you got to just figure out what works for you. You know, I, when I was younger, I loved going to big loud concerts. You know, my daughter doesn't believe me because now she's the concertgoer and I'm not.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:16:49]:
But anyway, well, and it changes too, right?

David Hall [00:16:53]:
Yeah, it changes. Yeah.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:16:54]:
We change over time.

David Hall [00:16:56]:
Yeah, for sure. Is there a particular strength you feel like you have because you're an introvert?

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:17:01]:
That's also a really interesting question. You know, one of the things that I think, coming back to what you said about introverts being deep thinkers, I think I, I don't know if this is true of all introverts, but I am a serious reader. I have to always have, be in, I have to always be in the middle of a good book. And I've been thinking about that a lot lately because, you know, empathy has been kind of in, in the, I don't know, in the, I don't know, news or sort of discussed lately feelings about empathy. Some, some figures have said that empathy is a bad thing. I'm a personal I'm of the personal belief that empathy is incredibly vital and important. And I remember learning, I don't know, in the past couple of years that reading fiction is actually a really powerful way to strengthen your empathy muscles. And it doesn't really surprise me that I read a lot of fiction and I am very involved in a lot of activities that tap into empathy.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:18:26]:
And when you read fiction, you are identifying with the various different characters in the stories. And if you read fiction from a wide variety of different genres and different authors and from different backgrounds, then you, you, you know, you learn a lot about what it might be like to be in different situations. And I think that, you know, it's not necessarily a specific introversion strength, but I think that there's some alignment there.

David Hall [00:19:00]:
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Extroverts read too, but definitely introverts are readers in general.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:19:06]:
And also I think, you know, this not again, not necessarily specific to introversion, but one of the things that I, I have been told by many people is that I'm really good at making them feel comfortable. And I learned that actually, David, during my dating days. There were a few years there where I went on a lot of first dates. And I learned that I can have coffee with anybody for half an hour. And I also discovered during that time of my life that I can make anybody feel comfortable for 30 minutes over coffee. I can make anybody feel comfortable. And again, I don't know, is that related to my introversion? I don't know. Maybe I would be really good at that if I were an extrovert as well, but I'm damn good at listening to people.

David Hall [00:20:05]:
Yeah, they often say that introverts are good at listening and, you know, there's many aspects to our personalities. You know, some people are going to naturally have more empathy than others. Some people are going to approach things more logically, but it's, it's all part of our personalities. And I focus on introversion, extroversion, just because it's a 50/50 split in the population and there's still so much misunderstanding But we also, on this show, we talk about many aspects of our personalities that, you know, could have to do with introversion, extroversion, or not.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:20:39]:
Is it a 50/50 split in the population?

David Hall [00:20:42]:
Yeah.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:20:43]:
Interesting.

David Hall [00:20:44]:
And people think that number's high, just like you said, some people think you're an extrovert. It's because they don't understand that it doesn't mean quiet and shy.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:20:54]:
Right.

David Hall [00:20:55]:
Just, you know, cause When people say that, it's like, well, I know some shy extroverts, you know? So it's not the right word. It's shy. If someone's shy, they're shy. But the nice thing is you can overcome shyness and gain confidence if that's a problem for you.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:21:12]:
I used to be very shy.

David Hall [00:21:14]:
Yeah, me too. And for me, it was getting to understand it— introversion. That's what gave me confidence, understanding how I work. And it might be different from somebody else, but It comes with strengths and that helped me overcome shyness and gain confidence. And I'm still going to think deeply and often think and then speak, you know, where my extroverted friend might be thinking out loud most of the time. You just got to understand the differences.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:21:42]:
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I, and I love that. I love, you know, any, any tool or system that is going to help me understand myself and other people more, I am all about it.

David Hall [00:21:55]:
Yeah, very good. So speaking of readers, let's talk about your book. I'm going to read the whole title here. Innovation at Work: 52 Micro-Experiments for Brave Leaders Who Want to Unlock Teams or Unstick Teams, Spark Ideas, and Build What's Next. So tell us about it.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:22:15]:
Yes. Well, you know, I, So, here's what's broken. So many leaders in the kinds of companies that I work with have people in their organizations, their team members that they themselves are polishing their slides. They're polishing whatever they're working on instead of testing ideas. They are perfecting their presentations or whatever it is they're working on. While their competitors are shipping. They're shipping their rough prototypes and they're learning what actually works. And so, and another problem, David, that I see all the time is that so many leaders are hesitant to pull their people away from their daily work in order to do some kind of a training or a workshop or a program because they don't want to take time.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:23:18]:
Away from the important work that their people are doing. So, the book is for directors, VPs, managers of leading companies, innovation leaders, product leaders, cross-functional teams, especially those who are tired of what I call innovation theater. And they're craving really practical tools that actually work inside real-world constraints. And the 52 micro experiments are designed to be experiments that they can actually run in 5 to 25 minutes in meetings or sessions that they're already doing in their day-to-day work week. So they don't have to pull people out away from their desks. And they can run them either, you know, one a week over the course of 52 weeks. I've also assembled protocols in case they're going through some kind of a crisis. I have 4 different 90-minute or 2-hour protocols that they can run that are made up of several of the experiments combined together.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:24:32]:
If you do, you know, one microexperiment per team meeting, you can, you know, systematically build those innovation muscles over time. I've also included success indicators, quick reference charts to select experiments by how much time they take, by problem type, by how easy they are to run remotely or in person, and various different other ways to choose which experiments to run. Part of this comes from my own experience back when I was a professional artist. I used to think to myself, so when I was a professional artist, I spent so much of my time making art for other people and, you know, had this idea in my head that everything I made had to make money, had to, you know, be really amazing. And so I never made time to make art for myself, which led to me being completely burned out and spending 15 years as a professional artist being really miserable. And I would go year after year after year making these New Year's resolutions I'm gonna set aside one weekend a month or one Friday afternoon a week, or, you know, 2 hours a week or whatever it was to just make art for myself, just purely for myself, not for my clients, whatever. And David, it never happened. I would make these goals and I would never do it.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:25:58]:
And then I would feel really badly about myself. So finally, finally, I decided to make ridiculously achievable commitment. Ridiculously achievable. 15 minutes a day. I mean, stupidly small. And I thought, I mean, this is ridiculous. What, what could 15 minutes a day actually achieve? But it's better than nothing. And David, it transformed my life because putting 15 minutes a day and what is that? That's 2 hours and it's an hour and 45 minutes a week.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:26:38]:
I think that comes to, I can't do it. It's less than 2 hours a week in total. But because a number of things happened, because I was doing a little bit every day, I was mentally immersed in my creativity. All the time. And also, I didn't set a maximum of how much time I could put in. So I would get started, I'd get past that starting friction, and I would often keep going. So on some days I'd spend more than 15 minutes. And also, because I was doing a little tiny bit every day, some days— and I, I said to myself it didn't matter what I, you know, the outcome didn't matter think quantity, not quality.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:27:27]:
So some days I would think, okay, what came out of today's creative sandbox play session is crap, but it's okay because I'm gonna be doing more tomorrow. So it was that tiny and daily concept that enabled me to make more art in that year. It was actually 11 months of that year since I started on February 1st. Than I had in the previous decade. And it's that same concept of, and by the way, creativity breeds creativity. So I was also more creative during that year than I had been in the previous decade. So it's that same concept that this, that's what led to this idea of this book. If I can get leaders in companies to, to apply that mindset with their teams, then that will help them expand their creativity and their innovation in a real-world way.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:28:31]:
And the activities in here, the experiments in here, yes, they're playful and they're fun, but they're not, you know, and you go overboard. They're They're real-world experiments that they're gonna run without feeling like, well, this is, you know, this is too frou-frou, woo-woo, fluffy. They're gonna get real value out of them. So, and they're also divided into 4 sections based around my Create the Impossible framework, 13 experiments in each section. So, section 1 is Play Hard. And this is, you know, we have to let ourselves play. Just like, it's not like, go to Vegas and get wild. It's, you know, let yourself be like a little kid exploring in the sandbox.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:29:28]:
This is, you know, this is step 1 of the Create the Impossible framework. And then step 2, might be my favorite step, make crap. This is, you know, when we, when everything we make has to be amazing, it's paralyzing. We have to let ourselves be able to less than perfect. We have to let ourselves make crap. We need the crap to fertilize the good stuff. So that's step 2, make crap. And then step 3 is learn fast.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:30:05]:
Turn every, every experience into a growth opportunity. Whatever you've learned from that, that play hard and the make crap steps, turn that into data. That's step 3, learn fast. And then part 4 of the book is create the impossible, tying it all together. So those are the 4 pieces, 4 parts of the book. 13 experiments from each. And there's a little prose section at the front that has a little bit of my story woven in as well.

David Hall [00:30:37]:
Very good. So just talk a little bit more about the problem and, and how this solves the problem. Like, what do organizations look like when they stifle creativity? And then what do they look like if they're doing these kinds of things?

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:30:53]:
Yeah, so, you know, You can't be competitive if your people are stuck in that polishing mode. Or if it's really— it's also really hard for people to be creative if they think they're not. So if you got those two things happening, if people are constantly polishing but they're not actually testing ideas, and if they're thinking like, well, I can't actually be creative. The people over there, the ones who are labeled as the creatives, they're the ones who get to do the creative things. I'm— that's not my role. You're really shooting yourself in the foot. So those are the big challenges happening for inside of companies. And the fix is when you integrate these little tiny experiments that feel fun and playful, but they're very functional.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:31:56]:
They're very strategic, and they're very short in terms of how much time they take on a day-to-day basis. But they really unlock creativity and they unlock weeks of forward momentum and they compound as well. So, you know, they layer on top of each other. So they just expand creativity throughout your organization as you continue to, you know, try one experiment one week and then add another experiment the next week and another experiment the next week. And here's the thing, there's science behind all of this. Perfectionism, often, you know, we turn to perfectionism. We think, you know, I'm, that's, that's improving quality because I'm just, you know, making sure that everything's as perfect as it can get. But perfectionism doesn't improve quality.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:32:53]:
It activates the brain's threat detection system, which— what that does is it shifts resources away from creative exploration towards error prevention. And when teams get into explore mode instead, they generate more novel ideas than teams that are stuck in protect mode. So that's what we want to do. We want to get teams into explore mode. And that's what these types of experiments will help to do.

David Hall [00:33:32]:
Yeah, so that's definitely an issue, the perfectionism. You know, being afraid to fail as well. How do we overcome that perfectionism?

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:33:44]:
That is such a huge, huge question. And that really comes down to— I see it as a cultural issue and a leadership issue. Leaders really need to model vulnerability. And imperfection themselves. If leaders require perfection of themselves and of their teams, you are really screwed. So leaders— psychological safety has been proven as one of the most essential elements in a high-functioning team. And so establishing that psychological safety is so key So, you know, reframing failure as data is really, really important. Learning fast from that data, ensuring that anybody who has any kind of a failure is never shamed and never punished for any kind of a failure, but celebrating failure as learning.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:34:56]:
This is so critical. There's a lot of lip service given to that, But then people end up getting punished for failures, which really you're shooting yourself in the foot when you do that. So that's really huge. And again, modeling imperfection as a leader is a very, very big way that you can really help create that culture that makes people feel safe so that, you know, to take risks themselves.

David Hall [00:35:27]:
Yeah, and that's often hard for leaders to do because the leader wants to appear perfect. So psychological safety is definitely something important that we've talked about. But just tell us, for those that don't know what it is, what is psychological safety?

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:35:40]:
Psychological safety is an environment in which people know that they are not going to be shamed or punished for standing out, for asking a question, for taking a risk, for making a mistake, for raising their hand, any of those types of things. When you have psychological safety, people have no fear of taking risks, raising their hand, saying, pointing out, "Hey, there's a problem here." People will feel no sense of fear to do any of those things. That is psychological safety.

David Hall [00:36:26]:
Yeah. And as you're talking, you know, we talk a lot about strengths on this show. And you, when you're allowed to do that and you feel safe to do that, you also feel so much more fulfilled in what you're doing. You feel, you know, you feel like so much, it's so much more rewarding to work in your strengths and feel like you can try things. And I like how you said to make crap, you know, because that's, that's, that's the way we learn. We have to fail sometimes. That's the only way. It is.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:37:00]:
It is absolutely the only way we learn. I mean, think about— I know this is an overused metaphor, but think about when we were learning to walk. The only way we learn how to walk is by falling on our butts over and over again. And I think I'm thinking back to when you asked me about my strengths as an introvert. And again, I don't think this necessarily has anything to do with introverts or extroversion. But I do know that one of my superpowers is vulnerability, is the ability to make myself vulnerable in public. And that, like, it doesn't feel— I don't know what— it doesn't feel extraordinary to me because it's just who I am. But people comment to me about it frequently.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:37:53]:
And I think, like I was just sharing how, as a leader, share your failures and da-da-da-da. And to me, that seems just normal. But I do understand intellectually that for a lot of people, like you said, they want to appear perfect. They want to appear like they never make mistakes, et cetera, et cetera. But in fact, they're going to, they're going to actually be much stronger, more effective leaders, more admired leaders. People are going to be much more willing to follow them anywhere if they allow themselves to be vulnerable, if they allow themselves to show their imperfection. That's just reality.

David Hall [00:38:39]:
Yeah, absolutely. One more question for you. How do you manage your energy as an introvert? And as far as like your work, do you allow yourself time to be creative, time alone to be creative?

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:38:52]:
So man, as far as managing energy, it's a, okay, so a few things that I can say. I prioritize sleep, which wasn't always the case. I eat really well and I'm religious about getting 10,000 steps a day. So those are a few things that I do. There are a lot of other things that I could do much better. There's a constant challenge. And also, you know, talking about what we were talking about before, I have— I have— I'm very self-aware, and I'm constantly looking at what drains me and what nourishes me and thinking about, okay, do I do XYZ or do I do ABC and having to make tough choices sometimes because of, you know, asking myself those questions. I don't always, I don't always do the, you know, the most, you know, correct thing in terms of my energy, but I'm always looking at those, looking at, I'm always assessing, let's just put it that way.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:40:07]:
So that's the answer to that question. I would love to tell you that I have been also religious about giving myself 15 minutes a day. And the reality is that I fall off the wagon all the time. And I am currently on, I have been on an off-the-wagon place for a long time, which pains my heart so much. I have— the other challenge here, David, is that I am what I call a passion pluralite. I have a lot of different creative passions. I am a musician. I'm a visual artist.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:40:49]:
I'm an improv performer. I have lots of different ways that I I like to creatively express myself, and there's not enough hours in the day for me to do all of them. And so right now I'm playing music. I recently took up the upright bass a few years ago, and so I have been prioritizing playing bass, and I fall off the wagon on that as well. And I've been struggling with some physical maladies around that as well. In any case, so It's very challenging because I have not made— and you would think 15 minutes a day would be no problem, but I have not made the 15 minutes a day for visual creative play. But I have been making music. So that's where I have been putting my creative expression time.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:41:42]:
We could, we could talk more about that because part of the, part of the visual challenge is I don't have any place to put art. Like, I used to make art on canvas. I don't have any place to put it. I'm not interested in selling and marketing and selling it. So there's that, a whole other issue around ecological— what, what to do with the art that one makes. So, so what art do I want to make if I can't? What do I do with it anyway? I don't know. Does that answer your question? It got very long and rambly.

David Hall [00:42:12]:
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And you know Melissa, this has been a great conversation. Is there anything else that you want to add before we go today?

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:42:20]:
I just love that you're doing this because I think, you know, even, even with so much more attention for introverts than we've ever had, you know, with the book Quiet and so many other introvert creators out there, I think it's so important that introverts get you know, get some focus. So I'm so glad that your podcast exists.

David Hall [00:42:45]:
All right. Well, thank you for coming on today and talking about it. Where can people find out more about you, your book, the work you do, Melissa?

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:42:53]:
Thanks so much for asking, David. So you can always find me on my website, which is my name, melissadinwitty.com. You can download a preview of the book at innovationatworkbook.com/previews. Preview. You can find me on LinkedIn at my name, Melissa Dinwiddie, linkedin.com/in/MelissaDinwiddie. You can find me on YouTube at Melissa Dinwiddie, and you can sometimes find me over on Instagram at— this one breaks the pattern— at a_creative_life.

David Hall [00:43:33]:
Okay. All right. Thanks again.

Melissa Dinwiddie [00:43:36]:
Thank you.

David Hall [00:43:37]:
Thank you so much for joining me. I appreciate you. I hope you take the time to explore other episodes and learn from other amazing guests. Remember, if you're interested in getting to know yourself better, there is now a free Typefinder personality assessment on the Quiet and Strong website. This free assessment will give you a brief report, including the 4-letter Myers-Briggs code. I'll add a link in the show notes. And I'd love to connect with you. Reach out at david@quietandstrong.com or check out the quietandstrong.com website, which includes blog posts and links to social media for Quiet and Strong and much more.

David Hall [00:44:14]:
Send me topics or guests you would like to see on the show. So many great things about being an introvert, and so we need those to be understood. Get to know your introverted strengths and needs And be strong.