From Script to Screen The Producer's Crucible

There has been such a black cloud over the job of Studio Producers in the recent years, so we decided to bring on a rainbow and give you a peak behind the Hollywood curtain of studio producer Carol Baum, a  fixture in the industry with credits like "Father of the Bride," who shares a wealth of knowledge from her latest book, reflecting on her 34-film journey and imparting lessons on maintaining the soul of original material.

Carol speaks on behalf of all movie and television producers in her latest book,  "Creative Producing" and gives no nonsense advice for long term success in Hollywod and beyond. In fact, her book is a perfect companion to my book "An Insider's Secret: Mastering the Hollywood Path" as she takes us down memory lane on the path from script to screen of legendary and iconic movies.

Carol opens up about the necessity of fostering relationships, recognizing promising projects, and the virtue of professional courtesy in an environment where your next big break could be just one conversation away. We also discuss  the significance of mentorship, preparing the next generation for the realities of the entertainment landscape.

Drawing from both our  personal experiences and industry anecdotes, we highlight the importance of having a creative confidant to share both triumphs and setbacks.

Get Carol's book- click here

About your Host- Alexia Melocchi

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:04

Welcome to the Heart of Show business. I am your host, alexia Melochi. I believe in great storytelling and that every successful artist has a deep desire to express something from the heart to create a ripple effect in our society. Emotion and entertainment are closely tied together. My guests and I want to give you insider access to how the film, television and music industry works. We will cover dreams come true, the road, less travel, journey beginnings and a lot of insight and inspiration in between. I am a successful film and television entrepreneur who came to America as a teenager to pursue my show business dreams. Are you ready for some unfiltered real talk with entertainment visionaries from all over the world? Then let's roll sound and action.

Speaker 2 1:00

Well, hello to all my listeners of the Heart of Show business. We're coming to the end of 2023. I can't believe I was about to say 2024, which is almost around the corner, and I get this incredible gem of a book that I have to talk about today. And I have to talk about with its author, because you know me, I'm a producer and I'm always get on my soapbox talking about you know the job of the producer and how difficult it can be if you don't know your stuff and I'm like I wish there was somebody that would write about this. And then here comes this incredible studio producer, carol Baum, who is my guest on the show today, who actually wrote about this both from the studio perspective and the indie perspective, and I can't wait to dig into it A little bit about Carol obviously she's been in the studio system as well, which makes her a great producer, because you don't know how hard it is to be a studio producer and we're gonna get down to that.

Speaker 2 1:59

She's behind some of my all-time favorite movies. You know, obviously she ran Dolly Parton's production company, sand Dollar, and you know they were behind movies such as Father of the Bride. You can see that in the screen right there we are looking into movies like Officer and the Gentleman. She comes from, you know publishing, which is great because obviously there's great content coming out of books, and she's also a professor in producing at USC and now she's doing also Hallmark movie. She's doing the whole thing independently. I could go on and on. All you have to do is look up for IMDB and Wikipedia and you'll know what an awesome guest she's gonna be for me today. Carol, the author of Creating Producing. Welcome to my show, carol Baum.

Speaker 3 2:45

Well, that was a lovely intro and now I don't have to say anything. That was great. You know I wrote this book. We'll start with that because I've been teaching for a number of years. I started teaching at AFI. I thought of the start program and I now I'm at USC. So a lot of years and every year I've said I've made a promise to myself that I would put it down in a book, because my class is the book.

Speaker 3 3:09

And then I decided and it was very hard to do that because who was time to write a book? But I'm married to a writer and I leaned on him and I said Tom, what are you doing today? And he said what do you want? And I said you know, I need you to help me put this together, because you're the person who closes the door and writes for eight hours. Well, I'm running around trying to get pictures made. Will you help me? And that's kind of what made it work. And so Tom's contribution his name is on the book is everything to me. And and he continues to close his door and write the novel that he's finishing. He's that disciplined. He's disciplined as a real writer is, and I am not disciplined in that way, I'm disciplined in the producer way, and then I'm on the phone all day, you know, trying to get people to pay attention to my projects. This is what we do. We're selling all day, but it's a social thing. It's not closing the door and putting my nose to the grindstone, writing a book. So that's how it happened.

Speaker 3 4:12

And the class that I teach, which is a creative, producing class, I'm trying to keep teach the kids. They're usually seniors, undergrads. I started teaching grads, then undergrads. It's all the same. They all want to know how do I get an agent? How do I do notes? How do I get a job? What do I do? How do I talk? How do I have an interview?

Speaker 3 4:35

And so the book covers all of that. That's the lesson part, the fun part, but that's fun. But the lesson the the entertainment part is is the gossipy part. It's all my experiences on 34 movies that I produced, and I talk about the people I've worked with, the jobs that I've had, and I think I'm very frank about it all. And I think that what makes the book more than just a how to because I've read every producing book and many of them are personal, but then they're kind of, they don't teach you anything. The ones that are really personal, and then the ones that are really about the craft are a little dull, little academic, something like those, but the one that inspired me, to inspired me, one is written by Larry Terman, who just passed away a couple of you want to be a producer.

Speaker 2 5:31

What about Larry's?

Speaker 3 5:32

book has been in print for 25 years. Yeah, I studied Larry's book and I followed his template and he talks about his experiences on the graduate and all the movies that he produced and from his point of view, and so that's kind of what I did. And the other book that was my model is there's a wonderful director named Ken Kuapas who's a friend of mine. He wrote a book about being a director, called so you want to be a director, and Ken's book is filled with humor and personal stories, the ups and downs he was a director of the office and Larry Sanders and many, many, many features, and his book is a page turner. It's entertaining. So that was my goal to kind of do the lesson part but have it be entertaining to people who are not students. So I hope I accomplished that. That was the challenge and that was the fun part. So it's memoir plus how to all into one Slim body.

Speaker 2 6:36

You certainly did, carol, and you know what I love how you were putting some of the sentences in bold. There were so many quotes that I, again, I teach, sometimes myself, I do webinars on global co-productions and distribution, because that's my world and everything you said I could relate to that. There's not one single thing that you said that like that doesn't make sense. One of my favorite books is also Hello, he Lied by Linda Ops, but again, like you said, this is more behind the scenes only, but it wasn't really giving any like how do I do this? And if I were to think about how you know we are thinking about comps, being producers. I love those ones because you just go to some of my favorite books. I also probably call you the Blake Snyder of producing, because one of my all-time favorite books for writing and for writers to Save the Cat by Blake Snyder, which is done in a very simple way. It's not a Robert McKee book that it's all theory, theory, theory, how to write a script, but it's really. Let's look at the rhythm. Let's look at the pacing of films. What makes some work? What are the beats? What is the beat sheet that is giving some great examples about movies that worked in every genre and I feel your book accomplishes that.

Speaker 2 7:48

I mean, I have to bring up some quotes. Oh my gosh, some of my favorite ones, you know. One is that producers have to assert themselves at the get go. And again, people don't understand that when you, especially you're dealing in the studios, there is so many talking heads, there's so many people who are gonna give you so many reasons as to not why this project should get green lit over something else. And you have to be passionate and I love what you keep saying about that to stay true to what attracted you to the material In the first place. And because we spoke about our common friend Cindy Williams just now, off record, tell me a little bit, like in a very short way, like, how does this father of the bride, like you said, an actor comes in with this great story and what made you say yes to?

Speaker 3 8:39

it. Well, it was an accident really. Cindy came in to audition for a part in a movie I was producing called Jackknife, which starred Ed Harris and Robert De Niro, and we were casting the female lead. And when I say we, I mean me, the producer, because the director, who is in England, really wasn't interested in meeting everybody different mentality over there. He didn't really want to see people he wasn't gonna hire.

Speaker 3 9:06

And Cindy's agent said would you meet Cindy Williams for this part? And I knew that our director had a different thing in mind, so I sat down with her, we hit it off. And that's the key to every meeting. You know, you make a friend for life, at least for a time. And Cindy's so easy to talk to, as you know. And she said when we were talking about movies we love. And she said do you know Father of the Bride? And of course I know every movie from that period because I am a complete film freak. And I said, yes, it was one of my favorites. And she said well, what if I got you Jack Nicholson? So I, well, that's a nice offer. I said, yes, can you do that? She said, well, he's a friend of mine and I think he would like this and I said, well, okay, but we don't have the rights.

Speaker 3 9:55

So I quickly went after the rights and at that time this was a long time ago people were not chasing remakes, they just weren't. And Ted Turner owned them. This is maybe the longer version of this how it happened. And so we at Zandala went after the rights and Ted Turner said, okay, and I don't even think we had to pay a lot of money for them. And then we took it to TriStar, which was one of the major studios at the time, and they said let's go. But let's go can mean different things to different people, and to TriStar it meant get us an A plus writer or we don't care. So they were not passionate about it. So right away, you know that the studio behind you, even though they picked up the option and they made it possible to move forward, they didn't care. And so, after a year of interviewing very good writers who were interested, they lost the option. This is why things take six to 10 years. This is what people don't understand. Nobody's fault, they just weren't excited.

Speaker 3 11:02

But in the wings was Jeffrey Katzenberg, head of Disney, and he had been following the project and he was waiting for the option to lapse and he stepped right in and he picked it up and it's that simple and it became a Disney movie. So that's how it happens and this fluky thing but it's not that fluky, it's like okay. And then of course, jack Nicholson didn't wanna do it and that was passed pretty quickly and once we were at Disney, they had their own ideas about casting. We had our own ideas about casting and of course, steve Martin ended up doing the movie and you can't imagine anybody else doing it. And that's the beauty of the job, because even though you talk about Jack first and you can't picture anybody else, he wasn't gonna be right for it and he knew it. Actors know when they're going to be the right person Most of the time and I do believe that the right actor ends up doing the project, if many times, at least many times in my life. So he was the right choice.

Speaker 2 12:08

So yeah, yeah, no, that's very true. It's interesting because I was talking to a friend of mine we have a great relationship with Lawrence Bender's company and they were telling us about Birdman and how Birdman had been around town for so many years. Everybody was passing on it and in its first incarnation it had Julia Roberts attached to it and Josh Brolin and nobody would do it. And then all of a sudden you're having somebody like Michael Keaton, who is kind of like an underdog Again, like the story with Jack Nicholson and Steve Martin. They're two different type of personalities. And then Michael Keaton says yes, and then they greenlight the film and then look where they became. It went on for the Oscars and it changed Michael Keaton's career, and we can talk about so many of these examples.

Speaker 2 12:55

And that's why I say to people, kind of like the song, one day you're down and then the next day you're up, you might be thinking every door is closed, and then all of a sudden, magically, somebody like Cindy walks into your office or you know, or you get, you know, suggesting a Katzenberg and everything, and then something happens. And and I love that, when it comes to producing, I do have to say one little thing that I disagree about in your book very small, minor thing, and it's not even a disagreement. It's maybe an excuse to expand on it with you and challenge you on it, Because at some point you said producing is easy. Anybody can do it. Do you actually believe that? Because I'm going to go on record and say that is not the case, which is why people need to read your book, because people get up in the morning and say I'm a producer, sit at the coffee bean and they think somebody's going to write them checks, millions of dollars for their IP that they haven't even gotten the rights to. So it's producing really easy. What?

Becoming a Successful Producer in Hollywood

Speaker 3 13:59

I mean by that. Let me explain why anybody can be a producer, because I do believe that all you need is a piece of material and then you're a producer. You have a book, you have a script, you have an idea. You have to take it to other people who have cloud to make it work, but you're a producer if you have an idea. Cindy Williams is a producer on the movie because she came in with that idea. We didn't have to include her, by the way, because she didn't do any legwork on the movie. But that's what you do. You do the right thing.

Speaker 3 14:35

And I really think that the kids in my class ask me that all the time well, how can I be included when I don't know anybody? This is a very big question, because they don't know anybody. They're kids, they're 19 years old and they haven't graduated school yet. And I tell them and this is all expand on this get a job, get on the inside, go to work at an agency, get to know people, Because you can't do it in isolation. But what I mean by easy is get a piece of material, and getting a piece of material, anybody can do that. You can write it yourself, you can find a book from your childhood that turns out to be Harry Potter or whatever. And then you have to go to Lauren Spender, you have to go to me or somebody who will help you get to the next step. But that's why it's easy to declare yourself as a producer. Hard to get the picture made, so I'll correct that in the next draft.

Speaker 2 15:37

I love that and, again, I think that, which is why your book is so useful, is you're giving the full spectrum of the business, because I think that the two things you need to have is, obviously, connections, which you can get from nowhere. You're absolutely right. You could be sitting in a restaurant and striking a conversation and that person happens to be, you know, a development executive at some studios, and you become friends and then you're training ideas and then they're the ones who are going to champion your project. I love what you said about assistance.

Speaker 2 16:05

By the way, I believe that I have met so many assistants in my life and I always said to people be kind to the assistants, because three years now they might be the vice presidents of production.

Speaker 2 16:15

So I think the networking part is definitely something, but, like you said, the knowledge of how to navigate the river as it twists and it turns, like you know, securing rights and doing script notes and getting a job somewhere, I think those are very, very important. So you know correction, because then you do go deeper into all of that. It's not as simple and you can have a producer credit or you can be a real, real producer and, as we all know, when you go for the awards and you become a PGM member, they checkmark your involvement in the film. If it was just abroad and IP, that doesn't necessarily get you to win an Oscar. It might get you on the stage, but ultimately there will be the producers who are, like yourself, doing the whole gamut right, and I think there's something to be said about how important it is that people learn, as they do at USC and in your book, to know the whole gamut right. But it starts with taste.

Speaker 3 17:15

Really, if you keep presenting terrible scripts to people, you lose your credibility pretty quickly. But if you present good writers to people, you become the person with good taste and you will always have a door open. And I think that's how I made my career. I was considered the person who had good taste and that just happens, because it happens. You know, I discovered manuscripts early on in my career when I worked in publishing, and it was my taste and my tenacity that made them happen. But it started with an opinion and being an advocate, and one of the rules in the book and what I teach my students is be a champion. Get on the tabletop, jump up and down, convince somebody that you love it and they will love pay attention. But you have to love it and you have to love it and you have to be able to go the distance with it and not really defer when people try to change it, which they will do. Everybody tries to change everything. They'll change a man to a woman and a woman to a fish, and I think you know this is what happens. So you have to be strong.

Speaker 3 18:28

And so many times, including on Father of the Bride, the first writers on Father of the Bride were not the right choice, and we knew it. But they were very big deal and they turned a middle class story into a working class story and it wasn't meant to be that and it didn't work. So that happens even under the best of circumstances. And then Shire and Myers were the right choice, they were the perfect choice, but we didn't start out with them and that's what happened.

Speaker 3 19:02

So you, as the producer that's the second rule is defend the initial material and explain why you like it and don't go too far. Going too far. You know, writers are replaced all the time in Hollywood, especially at the studio level, and I've been on projects where we've had five or six writers and each one changes it and you get further and further from the essence of it and then it's bad. So if you're lucky enough to have a big studio project where they're spending money on writers, that's great and you learn the process, but you have to be careful and that's what it is. That's what being a producer is really defending the essence of the project.

Speaker 2 19:48

Absolutely. And I would also add and this is a recommendation to many who are also maybe starting out as interns in production companies and like they say at the very bottom is I always end up going to be in charge of filling through those query emails and those pitches I would always say read every page. Read every page because, like you said, you do not know, just because someone is not represented, just because someone is not being you know page by a major of the top five agencies, that doesn't mean that there's not a great story out there. It could be in a book, it could be somebody random, just like it happened with you and Cindy.

Importance of Communication in the Industry

Speaker 2 20:24

So I would always say read every page because there might be a gem in there that you know is reinventing the wheel, although Hollywood doesn't really reinvent the wheel, but sometimes it does Every once in a while. We'll see what happens, you know. So that's something. And I love also what you said about returning all calls. I mean it reminds me of Sherry Lansing, who everybody knows. She was notorious at Paramount for returning everyone's calls and there's something to be said about that manners and dress appropriately right.

Speaker 3 20:59

You know, bringing Jeffrey Katzenberg up again who's a great executive. He trained his staff to return every call. There was the Monday call. What did you read this weekend? Everybody compared notes. It was very conscientious work, hard work. And Jeff Berg, who was head of ICM we know who. They were the people who would return every call. The calls were short, because you can return every call and chit chat all day long, but you got your call returned.

Speaker 3 21:29

You felt the respect. You don't have to go on about it. And everybody complains now that when the agents complain, you send something to I won't name any names and they call it the black hole. They never hear again. Well, that's not excusable.

Speaker 3 21:47

Why it's so easy to put in an email. I'll get to it next week or whatever. So email has made it so easy to communicate. So it's not false necessarily, it's just I'll get to it. Be patient.

Speaker 3 22:01

And I learned this not from Jeffrey Katzenberg. I learned it from being married to a writer who would say to me you know, they've had it for three weeks, what's going on? Why haven't I heard from anybody? And I learned from being with somebody who was in pain because they, you know, forgot about them. Well, that's not good. So I'm very, very careful to respond. To do the past better, to pass. If it's a pass, you don't have to string anybody along. That's a bad idea. Just be truthful and say it's not for me doesn't hit the spot. All you have to do and, as I say, I learned that because I'm married to a writer, so all of my rules in the book are writer rules respect the writer.

Speaker 3 22:51

The initial title for the book was love of the writer, so that's my philosophy. Yeah, relationships are writer relationships. That's why I have a lot of wonderful quotes on the book from writers, because they know that and I didn't do it with calculation, it's just. I fell in love with Mike White. I fell in love with Noah Bonbeck. I fell in love with David O'Russell. Those are great writers, so I went to bat for them early in their careers. And you know that's what you got to do. Not everybody wants to do that. You have to read a lot of scripts.

Speaker 2 23:30

Yeah, you do, and I actually think I also add to me people that are memorable to me as far as producers or filmmakers or agents is, when they're taking the time to tell you why they passed on the material. They don't have to butcher it, they don't have to give you super detailing, because of course everything is subjective in this business, but give the writer the credit to let them know something you know, because the poor writer needs to know, doesn't want to hear just a pass. Give them some explanation, whether it's timing, maybe it's budget, maybe it's you know, whatever the reason is. But take the time. You don't have to go into a whole diatribe about the reason why you didn't like the material, but give them something Because I think they deserve that.

Speaker 2 24:16

They pour their hearts and soul into this material. They write them for years. You know, because you're married to one, I'm sure your husband still today, with all his credits. He would love to know whether material that he's written is not working for that X, y, z executive or not, and get an idea as to why right.

Speaker 3 24:37

Well, I think that's a good idea. I don't know people who will take the time to give notes like that, but any kind of response is a good response. It's no response. That's bad when you have to move from anybody again so you assume it didn't get read. What would you think? Give it to somebody and you never hear back. You would think it got into the wrong pile or whatever you think you know, so that keeps you up at night. That is not acceptable. So we try, and I try, to teach my students to do that. They're not out in the world yet, so they don't know what that's like. You know, right now they're making their student films and that's what they care about. So these rules don't necessarily apply to what they're doing, but they will apply as soon as they set foot into the real world.

Speaker 2 25:28

Yeah, yeah, no, I absolutely, like I said, I think your book is fabulous. You know, it's the book that, and it's so funny because I have my own book on the business in the works, but it's completely different than God. So I was like, oh my God, she just did everything. I wanted to say thank God. No, because mine is more from the international perspective, which is again a very important thing, you know, because we are in a time where the market is a global market.

Speaker 2 25:56

You know, the US is no longer the main leader of content and there's so little that is told about how that side of the business really worked. I know you touched upon it very briefly because and rightfully so you needed to concentrate on all the. You know all the essential things too, because people who are here, they need to work here. But that business is completely booming and it's expanding and the rules are changing all the time. So you know, just like you're drawing out of your experience, I'm drawing my experience of my international, you know, being a buyer for and having bought films that sold over $2 billion in the box office, that would be behind. That's the thing.

The Power of Partnerships in Creativity

Speaker 2 26:38

I'm so glad that you're giving back, carol, just like I want to give back to this podcast and let me ask you a little, a little to end a fabulous conversation, because I want to get people intrigued to read your book and not hear all about it on this podcast, because you got to read it to people. You know it's not all here. There's so much more. What would be something that you tell yourself if you're having a part of my French or English really shitty day and you'll feel like all is lost, as they say in Blake the Snyder, when you're having something that is not going the way you want, how do you get yourself back up from that place?

Speaker 3 27:16

Well, that's an easy answer from me have a partner. If you have somebody you're working with and I have two partners you talk to them and you share with them. They've been rejected too on the same project. You share that rejection, you share that bad day and you have a laugh because you have to and alone. I don't know how that's possible. I don't know how people do it alone.

Speaker 3 27:42

To tell you the truth, I'm a big partner person and that's why I have two partners in my life and I share everything with them. We talk many times a day and each partner represents a different kind of movie and once a man, once a woman, and I've been partners with them for many, many years, and so we have a shorthand and we share that, the passes and the good stuff and the bad stuff and the silly stuff, and it makes it work. So I recommend everybody get a partner. They don't want to, people don't want to or they don't know anybody, but especially when they're in school, it's easy to find somebody, a colleague. A lot of the writing teams started in college, so it's good to know that. Not everybody's a team person, but I am, so you know I love that.

Speaker 2 28:33

I love that, carol Hashtag. It takes a village, as I always say, and we all know that Matt Damon and Ben Affleck stories, and we know so many of those where you have the partnership. You know Kennedy Marshall. There's so many people who join forces because of the different skills and what they bring to the table and it works out so much better. And obviously you're married to a writer, which also helps. You know, and it's been wonderful to have you on my show. I can't wait for to share it with my listeners so that they can get some education and inspiration and, behind the scene, look at what it's like to be a creative producer from A to Z. So, carol, thank you so much for coming on my show.

Speaker 3 29:15

Well, it's been delightful we could talk more. There's a lot more to say, but this is a good start and it's all in the book and everything that I teach is in the book. So you're getting a class really behind the scenes, with a little gossip thrown in, and it'll teach you how to be a producer and a writer and a pitcher. You know we didn't even talk about how important it is to pitch, but that is key to my teaching and in the book, how you pitch, because most people can't do it.

Speaker 2 29:46

No. And how to write a good query letter too, which you have there and you're bought.

Speaker 3 29:50

How to write a covering letter, how to write a, how to get a shopping agreement. All that stuff is in there because it's all stuff we do every day and we take it for granted. But we mustn't because nobody knows how to do it. No, that's meet with people who haven't been a producer. The first question they ask is how can I get somebody to read my script? So that's first. But then how do I get protected? If I have an idea? Who, how do I get? If I have a true story, how do I make sure that nobody's going to steal it? So all stuff like that is in the book. We have to deal with that all the time, all of us.

Rate, Review, and Connect With Carol

Speaker 2 30:26

Yeah, yeah, I love it. It's like I said, it's save the cat for the creative producing community and it's and I agree with you about pitching. I have been teaching pitching classes for those that go to the film festivals and the film markets, the filmmakers that they have no idea how to do this, which is a very different style, clearly, of pitching than pitching to someone like yourself, and they need to learn and they need to get over their imposter syndrome and, just like I said, let the passion speak for itself. I really believe that, so we'll do more. I'm sure I can't wait for people to review your book and thank you for coming on my show. If you like this episode, please rate, review it and let me know if you have any questions for Carol, you will know where to find her or the info will be in the show notes, and this is the heart of show business over and out on this beautiful rainy November day in LA.

Speaker 1 31:26

Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the heart of show business. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend. You can also subscribe, rate and review the show on your favorite podcast player. If you have any questions or comments or feedback for us, you can reach me directly at the heart of showbusinesscom.