How to Hire a Good Employee | Mitch Gray

Mitch Gray has combined over two decades of experience as a former pastor, life coach, entrepreneur, community developer, and creator to develop a brand of leadership that is at its deepest level- human. 

Taking his heart for inspiring others and his passion for empowering leaders, Mitch creates the space needed to consider a new way of leading. 

Mitch is the creator and host of The Mitch Gray Show and How to Hire and Keep Great People podcasts, author, consultant and a highly regarded speaker.

Discover More
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94tY7xZNOJQ

https://bit.ly/ECW223MitchGray

https://johnmeese.com/mitch-gray/

https://growingyourteam.com/ep103-mitch-gray/

https://lnkd.in/g_D4Q2Qhttps://youtu.be/NPHo5h9dUnMhttps://linkedin.com/in/mitchgraymedia

Transcript

mitch gray: 0:00

Forget it. Yeah. Where are you at? I'm in New Mexico.

Josh Bolton: 0:05

Nice.

mitch gray: 0:08

Today this week is warming up. Yeah, this this time of year is always weird for us because we'll get three or four days of 7580 degrees and then three or four days of 40 degrees. That's that's this time of year in New Mexico, man. So it'll start leveling out in the next couple of weeks. So

Josh Bolton: 0:27

yeah, wonderful. I'm in LA, California. Oh, cool.

mitch gray: 0:30

Yeah. You're like 72 degrees every day of the year, pretty much.

Josh Bolton: 0:37

Pretty much other than like, June to July, then it's just 110.

mitch gray: 0:40

Right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah, very cool.

Josh Bolton: 0:45

So you specialize in a process of for hiring people?

mitch gray: 0:51

Yes, yeah. So really more from the angle of recruiting the right people, for organizations and, and building and developing from there. And when I say recruiting a lot, sometimes people get confused and think I work with recruiters, that is not the case. I teach business leaders how to really recruit people, you know, themselves, really so. Yeah.

Josh Bolton: 1:20

So I'm gonna say before we get too far into it, can you give everyone a quick introduction of yourself?

mitch gray: 1:25

Yes, I will. I wasn't sure if we'd started yet or not really. So yeah. Sign niche gray author of How to Hire and keep great people. Small Business and Leadership consultant, personal development coach, and yeah, and that's, that's what I do is teach leaders how to better lead when it comes down to it at the end of the day. So yeah,

Josh Bolton: 1:45

100%. Yeah. So what you mentioned earlier about the recruiting people, that's actually been one, I've been tossing around, I've had brilliant people come on, but they're like, oh, just give him a piece of your company this and that. If you don't have cash flow, Mike, that's great. But how do I know I got the right person? And I'm sure now you're the right person to ask that question.

mitch gray: 2:04

Yeah, right. Right. That's like the $64 million question. Right? If we could bottle that recipe and sell it, we'd be the zillionaires? Yeah, it's an interesting concept. And it's an it's really a concept that I think that I, you know, people have the desire to hire the right people. The crazy thing is, most people when they're put in leadership positions, they're never taught how to hire the right people who is the right person. I mean, quite frankly, people aren't even taught how to lead. They're just kind of put into a position for a variety of reasons. And so really, the place I like to start is very simply, I try and keep things simple. And that is, number one. Who do you want around you? What type of people do you want to make up your team? What type of people do you want representing your organization? And so everything that I teach is based on human behavior, not so much can this person get the job done? But more? So what is this person bringing to the table? From a personality standpoint, from an energy standpoint, from a presence standpoint? And then you begin worrying about, can this person get the job done? And if you can start there, and begin looking at people from that perspective, it really helps you align with your question. How do you find the right people? You look for great people? Like that's the right simple answer. And so I like to I like to play a game. It's really I took it from, you know, marketing companies, develop your perfect teammate persona. You know, what, what kind of presence does that person bring? What kind of hobbies do they have? Where do they drink coffee? What kind of books do they read? What kind of movies do they love, what kind of life they lived. And if you can develop your kind of perfect teammate persona, what you're really going to do is give yourself a really nice foundation to begin your search. Most people are hiring based on the strategy of gambling. Thank you just throw it out there and hope they get something good and that just doesn't work. It just doesn't work. So keep it simple. Figure out your higher you know, your perfect teammate persona, figure out who you really want surrounding you and representing your organization and you'll be well on your way to finding people. Yeah.

Josh Bolton: 4:31

So would it be let's say I'm looking for like an assistant but also like a second in command. Would that be more? Would I be modeled off me or kind of like the opposite of me? Because I would need let's say hypothetically I need someone more detail oriented more good, have tedious things. I'm more big picture spontaneous. So would it be like I look in opposite places I normally would go to a coffee shop. That person might be like a library

mitch gray: 5:00

I'm potentially and I wouldn't necessarily view it as I'm looking for opposite of me, I would just view it as Where do great people exist? And then when you are looking for someone to do a specific, you know, play a specific role like you're looking for an assister, then it might be okay, where did those great people exist? So rather than saying I need someone opposite of me to kind of reframe the question of, okay, I know I need someone to do X, Y, and Z tasks, those might be opposite of me, because I have a role to play as well. And then asking yourself, where does that person exist? Where are those great high quality people exist, and maybe they do exist in a library, they do they exist as a clerk at the bookstore, maybe they exist in your local dentist office, maybe they exist in the coffee shop, I mean, you kind of just never know. But when you can match the tasks that you need accomplished, with wherever those great people exist, it does become a little bit easier, you know, on your search, and you can kind of narrow the field to me a goldmine of opportunity that so many people underestimate our educational campuses, college campuses, community colleges, universities. I mean, there are people right, for the picking that are usually high quality independent decision makers, they have a motivation to work, because they're often paying for their schooling. Very good motivation work. Yeah, they do. And a lot of them, you know, community colleges are great, because a lot of those people are family, you know, they have families to support. So they're trying to work their way through school to maybe learn something new. So tapping into some of those opportunities, you know, for you, if you if that's really what you're looking for, I mean, finding a part time college student 2025 hours a week is a no brainer, absolutely no brainer. And they are also building a resume. And so they want to do a good job. And they're probably going to be with you for a few years. And so there's just some prime opportunities that so many people miss, because they just don't think from a standpoint of Where did great people exist? And how can I find them?

Josh Bolton: 7:03

Interesting. I'm just thinking, because it's like, pre COVID, I don't know if now, everything loosened up, you'd like during 2020 and 2020 2020 21. You really couldn't just lounge around the college campus every day, and be like, Hey, I'm hiring, I'll pay you a premium. If you work for me. Is it better now in 22?

mitch gray: 7:25

Guys, I mean, thinks things are opening up, you know, things are opening up. And definitely these strategies had to be adaptable, you know, especially during the middle of the pandemic. But really, social media can be a platform that's a little more opportunistic than people think from the standpoint of, there are so many hashtags and different things to follow. You know, that you could you could kind of be looking from a standpoint of okay, what what content are people putting out, you know, if you follow the hashtag, you know, coffee shop, or whatever, I don't know, I'm just throwing that out there. But if you think you can find great people in a coffee shop or a bookstore, and you follow those hashtags, or any of those pages, and you can kind of see what content people are pulling up, because that question often comes up as well from hiring remote workers, you know, a lot of people are hiring down that avenue, rather than kind of a traditional role. So how do you use these strategies in hiring remote workers? Well, again, you just go to where the great people are. And in social media, those are certain pages, certain hashtags you follow you kind of see what content exists, you can you can see people's perspective on the world, which is one thing I love about social medias, you can tell pretty quickly if someone's kind of caught up in themselves or negative or always complaining. Those are not the people to recruit. But what about the person that, you know, maybe you're following a hashtag and you see someone come across and go, you know, hey, work today was challenging. But here's a few things that I did to try and make it better for me and my co workers. That's the person you might engage with and eventually recruit.

Josh Bolton: 8:59

Yes, 100%. Yeah, you don't want the negative, nagging or I actually, I had a co worker, earlier this evening. It was just, it was working away on something and then he stops, he crossed his arm, put his rag injures thing and kicks his leg back, and it's like, works hard. And like you're complaining to me, he's like, No, I'm not. I'm like you're complaining. Shut up and get back to work.

mitch gray: 9:19

Right, right. Yeah, we don't we don't want to we don't want to recruit those people. For sure.

Josh Bolton: 9:23

Yeah. And that's where I guess I have a speech and it was just one of those. Something like, I'll summarize is like a tree grows. But if you leave a dead branch on the tree too long, it'll kill the whole tree. So you got to cut the limb off. And an extra emphasize you need to fertilize the ground with the dead limb. That's pretty funny. And then pretty much like yeah, he sat there and he looked and my boss came by. Oh, you got to the olive tree speech. Yeah. It's normal. Don't want to ignore it.

mitch gray: 9:55

Yeah, hang on to that, man. That's a good one. I like that a lot. Yeah.

Josh Bolton: 9:58

And it was just one of those Yeah, that's pretty much it. That's what he said. He's like, Yeah, Josh is going places. So mine Wait, he says, because he could probably help you well, and you don't realize it.

mitch gray: 10:09

That's right. That's right. Hey, someone needs to recruit you, brother, someone who said I love it.

Josh Bolton: 10:17

I love it. But yeah, and that's where then he asked a question about the recruiting. He's like, Well, I want to go here in life. I'm like, Well, you can't be complaining, what you're asking is a higher level thinking and assertiveness. Like if I was looking down hiring you, I would never look at you. You could be qualified, your personality would just be like, nope, Kinmel. Figure it out. Kind of thing.

mitch gray: 10:42

Yeah, that's exactly right. And some people do have greater aspirations than they do. aptitude, I guess, would be the word, you know, their mindset doesn't match their aspirations and, and, you know, kind of kind of on subjects with what we're talking about, unfortunately. Oftentimes, leaders kind of promote those type of people, because they need someone in that position. And so they sacrifice, you know, that quality, they sacrifice what they agreed upon, for just having someone in the position. And you really see that more often than not, which doesn't bode well for culture and team camaraderie or just, you know, need more Josh's giving Olive Branch speeches is what we need.

Josh Bolton: 11:29

Yeah, yeah. So that you mentioned something earlier about personality involved? Are you talking like Myers Briggs? Disc? How do you tell people to look for personalities?

mitch gray: 11:40

Yeah, you could, obviously, you're not gonna give everyone you recruit Myers Briggs tests. That's a little awkward. It's someone doesn't have knowledge, or, you know, kind of a working experience with how to kind of read people's energy and understand human behavior, then definitely studying some of those personality tests. You know, there's some the Clifton Strengths based approach. There's Myers Briggs, there's all kinds of tools. And so definitely getting into that and doing it from the aspect of okay, I'm gonna learn more about myself. But I'm also going to learn how to really read the room, and what notes I should take mentally when I'm looking for someone. And, you know, to me, the greatest tool is what I call lifestyle recruiting. So really, the recruiting never stops, it's when you're getting coffee, it's when you're out to eat, it's when you're shopping. And when you're not going out of your way you're just observing, that's all it is, is you're observing who gives great customer service, who's always smiling, who's all when you go shoe shopping, who's bringing out that extra pair of shoes that you didn't ask for that suggestive selling, who goes above and beyond. And those are pretty easy to read. And then when it comes to personality, you know, oftentimes, I would say more times than not, someone's personality is going to come through, you know, let's just go back to your example. Let's say for example, you were on the sales floor, and your co worker came up to you in that scenario and complained. And then you kind of politely gave them the olive branch speech. If I'm in earshot of that, I'm going to pay close attention to what's happening, because that shows me a few things. So you have courage and boldness, that you're a great team member, and you really care about what's happening and how you're taking care of people. And so really, without thinking twice, I'm like, wow, I need to take note on that guy. There's something to that. So then I'm just going to come back around every so often and experience you again, so that I can kind of confirm and affirm my suspicion. And so when I say personality, oftentimes the story is being told we're just not listening.

Josh Bolton: 13:39

Very true. Very true.

mitch gray: 13:41

Yeah.

Josh Bolton: 13:43

Yeah. And that's, that's one of those joking, there's a, like a piece of plays that I like to go around here. And that he hired a new person, and it's a small business owner, so me and him chat a lot. And the person's like, we're hustlin, cleaning counters and all that and was checking my orders are very attentive. But there was something he did specifically he remembered a statement I said earlier, that wasn't even in conversation. And that's where I turn jokingly to him and said, I don't have the money, but I'll figure it out. I'm gonna take this person from the US like, no, I'll pay him double.

mitch gray: 14:17

Yeah, that's exactly right. That is a perfect example of what I'm talking and you didn't have to be a Myers Briggs experts. I know. They're no that's why I say it's all it's all just human behavior. Figure out the type of humans you want to surround yourself with, and go find more of those. It's that simple. It really is. It really is.

Josh Bolton: 14:36

And it's funny recently I went and he's still there and he actually been promoted to manager and then he's he saw me he gave me a free pizza because I it's been a while but he's like, because of you and what you did my boss actually saw my true value what I wanted to do I'm like, I'm still my offer. I'll double whatever he wants.

mitch gray: 14:55

Yeah, yeah. So you you incidentally recruited for the business owner to promote The guy that was already there. Yeah, great job, man. That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

Josh Bolton: 15:05

And that's where I was like, Okay, now that you made the top, I'm gonna take you from him just out of principle. Right?

mitch gray: 15:08

Right. That's a cool story. But because that's the that's the perfect story we're talking about, man. That's, that's all it takes. That's all it takes. And I like to tell people really in 15 to 20 conversations over the next month, you can drastically change your team. It doesn't take much. It doesn't take much. Yeah. So

Josh Bolton: 15:27

and actually, I need to go visit him today. There's a I haven't gone to this coffee shop nearby. And he hires college kids, just get him in, get them work and all that. But he trains them on all this stuff. And well, one of the ladies was very again, like the other person very attentive or listening. Not Know, rudeness is, she could have been the sassiest person at world but work she's not. And this first week the owner came around, I said, Hey, I really liked her. I don't have the money, kind of like, I'll figure it out. I'm gonna steal her from you. And he's like, I just hired her. I'm like,

mitch gray: 16:01

lady, yeah, yeah. And she's like,

Josh Bolton: 16:05

I liked the coffee shop, I can wear it. And I'm like,

mitch gray: 16:09

Okay, you win. But you know, what's crazy, is you're you're really doing something, what, whether you're aware of it or not, is what I call planting seeds. And that's what makes it fun is you're not going to recruit everyone, and you're not going to recruit everyone at once. But what you are going to do is plant seeds, because you know, just like in your position right now, you may not be in a position of building a team, but in three years you will be and in five years you will be and so you're just planting those seeds that you're not, you know, on a little bit old school. So I still use the word Rolodex, which for people that don't know what a Rolodex is, it's literally a plastic box with file cards in it that we used to use back in the day to keep track of people. And so what you're doing when you're when you're kind of playing that game, you're telling stories about as you're building a Rolodex, that at some point in time, you're going to come back to and if if yoga pants barista doesn't want another opportunity, I guarantee you she knows someone who does. Oh, yeah. So then then the magic is the people you recruit become the recruiters. And so you're just constantly planting those seeds. And when you can do that over time, you building a team becomes the least of your worries, because you've put in the investment of planting those seeds. So good job, man. Yeah, it's gonna it's gonna pay forward to you, I promise. Yeah.

Josh Bolton: 17:30

Yeah, I've just always been that way. I've never realized now you explain it like I just especially talking to awesome business guys like you and on the show. I've just become more business savvy. I can naturally ask high level questions of the owner. And right. And that is one of them. I mean, cuz the coffee shop owner during the lockdowns at 2020, I was still working, so I've just go get coffee on my days off. And I told him my Hey, so how are you doing with coffee going to the moon essentially music? Not good. Not at all. So then me and him were just chatting in the lady in the back kind of like, ask him like, Wait, you'd never talk about shop like that with customers. He's like, Oh, yeah, He's different. He's like that, that weird little asterix, say, if this happens, then you may be able to he's that trick one. He's also kind of you can customize and Okay, and I'm like, I prefer it. I tip well.

mitch gray: 18:24

Yeah, if you tell me the truth holds up. Well, that's right. Yeah.

Josh Bolton: 18:27

But yeah, that's reason he's, he's the exception to the rules like, yeah, because he tells him Don't assume don't make a coffee beforehand. Kind of thing. He's like him. He likes to black to the top. That's it.

mitch gray: 18:38

Right? Every day, same every day every day. Yeah. You have

Josh Bolton: 18:41

a bear on the counter. If he's, he can just pay. Thank you. He'll even leave you better

mitch gray: 18:46

tip. Yeah, that's right. That's right. That's cool, man. And it

Josh Bolton: 18:49

was just this reason. Yeah, he's the one when I say for everyone, except that as strict easy as strict. Right? Right. Right. He made it into his handbook.

mitch gray: 19:02

Yeah, that's awesome, man. That's awesome.

Josh Bolton: 19:05

Let's see, um, hypothetical. I'm running a very successful marketing firm. How would that be more than that? Because it's online marketing and all that, would I need to go to a more like LinkedIn to get people? Or would it still be the Instagram go to the hashtags?

mitch gray: 19:23

Yeah, it depends. I like to view it as tools in a toolbox. Okay. And so there are definitely, you know, times places purposes for using a variety of recruiting strategies. So LinkedIn, you know, monster, Glassdoor, et cetera, et cetera, whatever. There's moments that people should and could use those. That what I like to say is don't make those your foundation. If it's kind of, it's kind of what I call those third party apps. If those become your foundation, you're really going to cause yourself a lot of headaches and a lot of struggle and spend a lot of money you know, the great thing As you're telling these stories, and we're talking about all this, you spent zero money on recruiting, and incidentally, have been recruiting so many people. Whereas, you know, if you only depend on third party apps and agencies, you're going to pour in so much money to those, and not really get a great yield on your investment. Yeah. And and you don't get to control who comes to the conversation. That's the other trick is yes, you can put in, okay, I'm looking for a person with this ability, this skill set, you can kind of, you know, put in some specific adjectives per se, what you can't put into an algorithm is your cultural makeup, personality type, energy, conversation. And so you're really actually lessening the pool of opportunity, by not being able to focus on the critical elements, the most important elements, if you're looking for, you know, I think where some people miss it is, especially in the small business world, if you're looking for specific projects to get done, and you don't necessarily need to hire a full time person, now we're talking about the potential freelance workers, that's a whole different conversation, you're still gonna use the same pillars of success, personality, character, etc. But I think a lot of small business owners miss it, and they go, Well, wow, we need a team of 10 people because we're growing or whatever we're gonna expand to 20 people by question becomes how many full time people do you actually need, versus how much of this can you solve out? And those are kind of two different philosophies. And I say that because you brought up specifically like a marketing agency, you know, oftentimes marketing agencies, they need a design project, or they don't need a graphic designer. They might just need a freelancer to do that project. And so there's really some creative ways and I bring that up. Because when I said tools in the toolbox, those are all the tools. If you need a screwdriver, get the right screwdriver. And there's a time for that if you need a hammer, get the right hammer, there's a time for that. And there's different types of hammers. And so I really like the foundation of find a business owner, a leader, I'm going to constantly be recruiting, I'm going to teach my best people to be recruiting, I'm going to teach my best customers to be recruiting. And if I do that, I'll be able to make up the bulk of my team. And then I can use those other tools for you know, other opportunities kind of bonuses. Yeah.

Josh Bolton: 22:23

Yeah. No, that's very true. Like I recently acquired a podcasting client and, and just one of those, he's a hey, so where did you do this? And I honestly, 90% of what I did, I just paid someone on Fiverr to figure it out.

mitch gray: 22:39

That's exactly right. It's exactly right. It's more cost. It's more cost effective for you. And it's more time effective. Yeah, exactly. Right.

Josh Bolton: 22:47

And that's where the person that I just told him I here's the people I went to, here's a list of them. I haven't talked to him in two years. So they might be like, Okay, maybe we know that name.

mitch gray: 22:57

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's I'm talking about recruiting. I have quite a few friends that use freelancers like on Fiverr and stuff. And if you use them a couple of times, and they do a great job. And then the moment comes like, say your podcast grows, and you need someone working for you 20 hours a week to help a podcast, you already have a history with that person, and you know, the work they've done. And so there's a potential opportunity there. And so it's really just kind of opening your eyes and your mind to what opportunities already exist. And stepping into those and so and freelance opportunities, like Fiverr, those are those are great tools to have got very efficient, usually, sometimes not so much, but use Jose at

Josh Bolton: 23:36

least eight out of 10 times it works in your favor. I'm gonna say recently, especially on tick tock, they're like, a little dish, great thing called a drop, where can you just automate it, and it just goes to this poor guy in the Philippines for a buck and you just get to keep the top pay off. And it's like, yeah, but then you don't get to control the quality, the customer experience and all that.

mitch gray: 23:58

You've really got to decide where your integrity is gonna lie. You know what, with who you're going to partner with, and the quality of your work. And if you don't have that integrity line drawn, then you can, you can get sucked into some opportunities that aren't great for you or for the other person on the other end.

Josh Bolton: 24:15

Yeah, and that was one of those. One of my co workers, he saw that tick tock, and he's like, I should do that. I'll make like an extra 1000 a week and like, yeah, for about the first two months. And then all this all of a sudden customers like this is crap.

mitch gray: 24:29

Yeah, that's right. It's not sustainable. It is not sustainable.

Josh Bolton: 24:33

And then he just said to us, I really am like, word of mouth still spreads like crazy. And it's not just social media. Like if we if the customer has a terrible experience, so you didn't deliver what you promised is they asked for a horse and you for some reason, give them a unicorn, farting rainbows. They're gonna be upset, impressed patriarch but upset.

mitch gray: 24:53

Exactly, right. Yep, that's exactly right.

Josh Bolton: 24:55

And that's where he just sat there and I'm like, when you go into business, you have to be very Strategic, what'd you do? And I said, that's where the passion comes into play. Because if you're passionate, you don't mind doing extra.

mitch gray: 25:08

Right? Right. Yeah, that's that integrity piece, right? You've got to decide what you're going to be about and be about it.

Josh Bolton: 25:16

Do I only got you for 30 or an hour?

mitch gray: 25:18

So it's up to you, brother, I can, I can converse for as long as you want. Not over an hour, though.

Josh Bolton: 25:26

an hour. So what are some other strategies, let's say I'm a recently I recently hired you as a client, what would be some other things you'd go over? Now, with me.

mitch gray: 25:40

The first piece I always start with is an internal reflection as a leader. In other words, you know, in dealing with small business leaders, especially, they become very distracted. There's a lot of fires that are burning, and they feel like they have to put them all out. And so it's really in fact, I was I was visiting with a client just yesterday about this exact subject, because he's kind of in the middle of it, you know, and it's, the example I gave him was, it's like juggling, and if people don't know how to juggle, pick up a book on juggling, it's a great skill to learn. When you're juggling, say three balls, the first mistake that you don't make is staring at one of the balls. Because if you only stare at one of the three balls, you lose perspective on the other two, and your hand eye coordination goes out the window. So really, the art to juggling is you look through the balls, past the balls, you don't you don't focus on what you're actually juggling. And as a leader, that becomes a critical piece that you lift your eyes past and have a larger vision at play. Because when you can have that larger vision, then you get to really start focusing in on and kind of working backwards, as many people say, on how we make that vision come to life. That takes a lot of internal reflection, what again, that integrity, what are you going to be about? What's your foundation? What are your kind of pillars of your organization? What do you want to kind of stand for? What do you want, you know, outside of your brand, your brand is the follow up to your foundation? What do you really want the experience to be? What impact do you want to have. And then as a leader, it's are you really ready to relinquish control and build a team that can operate on their own, that actually doesn't need you around? Because that is the ultimate of great leadership, is your team actually performs as good or better when you're not in the picture. And I like to say you want to build a team of entrepreneurs, independent thinkers that take initiative, they can make decisions, they don't have to ask your permission, you want to create that space of permission. The challenge to that conversation is, so many leaders have really, especially if they're a small business owner, they've invested often their life savings, their lot, you know, they've kind of poured their blood, sweat and tears into this project, this business. And so for them to relinquish control isn't just an act. It is actually like, you know, a ceremony of sacrifice that they're letting go of and letting someone else take ownership. But that is the only path to sustainable success, because you cannot do it on your own. And so that's really the the foundational conversation is, what do you want out of this working partnership? If someone hired me to work with me? What what do you want to get out of this? What's the end result you're looking for? Whatever your experience has been up into now? What would you like your experiences to be going forward? And the last question is, what do you really? What are you really ready to give up to shift to change, because all this other stuff, you can recruit the greatest people, you can set up the best systems. As a leader, you are not ready to make those changes, everything else is futile, doesn't matter. And I've seen it time and time again, they'll recruit great people, only to have them leave a few months later. They'll put in and implement great systems only to not be using a month later, because they weren't ready for that internal shift. And that is the most critical piece of this whole conversation. And then from there just depends on you know, the organization. Some organizations have a great team, they don't have great systems, some are vice versa. Some don't have either. Some have great systems that they created 30 years ago, they're sitting in the handbook and they never used some people are needing to work on customer service. And so you know, just kind of depends on the business. But the one thing I've learned over the years is it always begins with the leadership and where they are willing to walk or where they're willing to not walk and that really deciphers kind of what direction to go.

Josh Bolton: 29:55

So 100% The it's one of those the same Personally, I was asked him about the fiber thing I told him I said, I said, like, I prefer trees, it's easier for people to understand. I said, Do you see a tree that has multiple trunks? And he's like, No, it's usually one. And I'm like, and it usually looks like this as it and he's like, yeah, so think of that, as a human, your leader holding up the whole organization, um, like, you have to be willing to do a lot of things and bear a lot of burdens. But ultimately, as the tree grows, the branches grow out, which is your manager and their teams, and there's teams teams, and you just are ultimately the one having to sit there and just be like, Okay, switch this change that kind of thing.

mitch gray: 30:41

Yeah, yeah. And it's, it is a burden. You know, it's, um, fact I use that phrase quite often that leadership is a burden. And, and it's not a negative connotation. It just, it's heavy. It's really heavy. And so And for many people, they thrive under that burden, and learn to make that burden a partner of motivation. The difference is great leaders understand that leaders, they get, you know, ultimately burned out stressed out and kind of have to make a shift, are the ones that are allowing that burden to kind of crush them, but then that I wouldn't even really call them leaders, you know, there's a real there's a big difference in, we used to say back in the day, are you a leader? Are you a manager? Yes, they still say Are they argument could be made a great manager as a leader. So it's kind of, you know, it's kind of an idea of language there. But at the same point, it makes a lot of sense. Are you someone that's actually empowering others? Are you someone that's just making sure the checklist gets done? Those are two very different approaches. And that's exactly what you're alluding to with your tree analogy. You know, it's, especially when you're an owner, you know, that's a whole different burden. And it does, you have to take it seriously, because you are all of a sudden responsible for, you know, a lot of things, but at the same time, it's a privilege, because you've opted in. And that's, you know, sometimes you have to have that conversation with small business owners especially is hey, you opted into this, you can always opt out. So it's not going the way you want, and you're not willing to do it, and maybe time to opt out. And that's the conversation you have to have. quite boldly. Yeah. Oh,

Josh Bolton: 32:15

yeah. And actually, it was one of those. I was talking to a small business owner. And it was just one of those the same thing. He's like saying, like, oh, this and that. I don't know if I can feed everyone. And I was just like, whoa, what do you mean by feed? You're not literally handing him a pizza kind of thing. Right?

mitch gray: 32:35

Yeah. And I feel it. I mean, it is a burden, especially the last two years, you know, people have I mean, how many businesses have we seen that I did have to make the decision to opt out, you know, almost out on their own accord, it was kind of the hand was forced, but at the same time you do you do have to take it seriously enough to take inventory? And again, that internal reflection, to know when it's time and when it's not. And so, but yeah, you're right. They're not. They're not like lifting the ladle from the soup, you know, and into the bowl.

Josh Bolton: 33:05

As soon as they're like, Well, we have to pay more, okay, that's totally different. You're not like, you've already I have to feed them, right, you need to give people their money, so they can go get their food and pay their rent. But I'm like, he's the way he phrased it. Like, he's like, I'm old. Similarly, the the only success or failure for these people, and I'm like, I'm sorry to say this, they get sucks, they might have to go get unemployment for a month or two, but they can go get another job if you're the one that screwed

mitch gray: 33:31

if. And when you think about that, I mean, you know, not knowing that person, you don't really know what the motive is, but also that that's really a statement of control. When you start digging down deeper, right? They they get more meaning the leader, the owner, gets more from making that statement than the employees do. So really, when you start listening to that conversation, it's like, oh, what you're really saying is you want to be in the mode of controlling things, rather than giving empowerment to others. And, and oftentimes, I will say, oftentimes, those statements are kind of cultural statements. They're statements that are gifted to them, and they haven't really taken inventory of that before. No one's really asked that person. Okay, what do you really mean when you say that? Because that's a whole different conversation. And I have to believe in that good of people, I think when most people would sit back and go, Oh, yeah, I probably shouldn't use that statement before. Again. Hopefully, they would change it. But it really is, when you get down to the kind of the brass tacks of it. It's a statement of control. I'm the one that's feeding these people. I'm the one and it's like, well, I mean, in technicality, you're not wrong, but that's a really terrible philosophy to have.

Josh Bolton: 34:45

Yeah, and it was just one of those. I said, Yeah, you got it. It's kind of what I said. It wasn't as well versed as I am now. Pretty much like you know, you give them the money. So you just transfer into stress. They gave you X amount of time, you give them the reward The Money kind of thing. And I'm like, that's all you did. There, you can easily just be shady, but they can go work for McDonald's or Starbucks. They'll take a pay cut, but they don't have to work for you.

mitch gray: 35:14

That's right. There's a world of opportunity, a world of opportunity.

Josh Bolton: 35:17

Yeah. And that's where the guy kind of just like sat back and, and then near the end, he came back to that he's like, Oh, wow, you're right. I'm like, I try not to be that guy. I just see. What's working. Just so happens is pretty accurate.

mitch gray: 35:31

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it's amazing how many leaders have that mindset. So it's, it's no, it's no wonder that the issues that exist exist, because it's oftentimes those mindsets.

Josh Bolton: 35:46

Yeah. And that was like, 2019, right before the pandemic. And it was just one of those he closed, because well, all his employees went home, and he couldn't do anything. So he's like, pretty much. I think he just threw in the towel, because he's like, Well, they're taking care of technically, so I don't have to worry all this close up shop and figure it out. Right. I'm like, Okay, well, I guess you're controlling still is destroyed you. So then, I'm just curious, since we're, we've touched on a few templates, a very dominant controlling personality approaches you and even hires you? And how would you convince them in a polite way that maybe they should reconsider their

mitch gray: 36:29

perspective? Little bit of a two fold answer, if that's the personality that wants to work with me, as a consultant, I'm probably not going to work with them.

Josh Bolton: 36:42

I wouldn't work with them. Well, I charge my money. Yeah,

mitch gray: 36:45

exactly. That's the exuberant, you know, $50,000 fee. And if they pay it, okay, here we go. Yeah, it's, you know, because I really believe in alignment. And so it kind of jokingly, I'm, I'm, I'm selective in those areas, I want to work with people that that as far as I can tell, have the open mindedness to take what we're gonna give them to heart. Conversely, let's just play out the scenario, right? Because a lot of people do work for those people. You know, that it's, it's a going to be a lot of one on one time, you know, me working with our team at that point is futile, kind of like Ken talks about earlier. If we can identify that there's that domineering, kind of aggressive, even passive aggressive leadership and play, then it really becomes a lot of personal development work. And quite frankly, that's what most of my work becomes, is really opening, giving them the opportunity and safe space to have a lot of these hard conversations, it also becomes showing them the power of feedback from others, which is often a very difficult task, because they want that control, they may have that domineering perspective. And so giving them feedback from their coat from their employees can oftentimes become kind of a wound kind of a sore spot. So it's really taking that feedback and showing them the power that can lie within that feedback. And your hope is that if you can show them the power and the opportunity that lies within that feedback for growth and success, that they value, that enough that the shift can happen. And so really, it is, it is what I like to call placing them in front of the mirror and getting them used to their own reflection. Yeah, now, not not an easy task, but that really is the only path toward tearing down some of those barriers and walls. And the other thing people don't realize is oftentimes, that avoidance of their own shadow or reflection is caused by other personal challenges, issues, barriers, upbringing, you know, yeah, I'm, especially in male leaders, I've seen this often, that have that type of attitude we're talking about, they may have had a father who was abusive, or, you know, whatever. And so a lot of times, you're all of a sudden drawing all these connective points that you have to dig into, you don't have a choice. And so for a consultant that isn't prepared for that, it's a little more difficult. Fortunately, I you know, I've spent so many years doing so many things, and I have so many experiences that that's kind of my my wheelhouse, but you really, you really do have to dig into that. Because if you don't, again, everything else you're gonna set up will not work. It just it just won't work. And so that's also why the laughingly I said that, you know, those clients are difficult to work with because if they're not ready to change all all the money in the world isn't worth that, you know, it just doesn't work. So yeah, yeah, it's a choice. It always a choice.

Josh Bolton: 40:01

And it's kind of what I was thinking you were gonna do anyways. It's funny how you're explaining the whole the mirror thing. I have a story I like I used to work security at a truck gate, and I would let truckers in and all that. Well, I was grossly underpaid clerk essentially but we'll find sight on like, Damn, I should I should have just gone somewhere else but it was just one of those this one guy honestly looked like he was broke, tattered up like flannel shirts, pants, beaten up like Ford Ranger from the 80s. And it was just me and him would always chat and I knew he was a high person within the company. I just didn't know how I and a certain point he came up. It was a little busier day, Gilad trucks and me being observant. I would see people come in. And I noticed this one guy every day, Hell's Gate, tattoo, fire and demon spawn coming out of it. And he just pretty much saying Oh, I wish I broke my leg. So I could be home for six months instead of working one day here. And I was just like, interesting. Mr. Hellgate Seaman spawn guy said that but Alright, whatever. And then the high profile guy came. And he's a hey, you know, you're very observant guy. What's wrong with Mike? Like, this warehouse is my baby is what made me get to where I'm at. ask a few questions that oh, yeah, that guy with a tattoo on his neck. And she's like, Yeah, Chuck. I might Yeah, Chuck. Chuck just really wanted to break his leg and never come back here essentially. So I just pretty much said, you know, I came in with some tips to sit if I was working for you. I said, I'm assuming back in like the late 80s, early 90s. When you were still a manager, you were the cool manager, you would applaud everyone you buy him food and all that and soda on the house kind of thing. And bonuses. He's like, Yeah, I'm like, that's not going on here. I said, I'm like, it's silly to say. Why don't you get like, can you afford to give like 500 bucks up for the week? For the next like, month? And then I'm No, you're a man that makes a lot of money. He's like, Oh, yeah, that's like two steak dinners. I'm like, Well, I don't know where you go for two steak dinner. 250 a shop and I want to try your painting though. Right. Right. But so essentially, he just told him deputy workers 100 bucks is Game Changer sad to say but it is. Give him 100 bucks for Amazon or groceries or whatever. And suddenly, just the because he was using a temporary worksite like a temporary worker company. Yeah. Yeah. This is another one. I said, Hey, I get it warehouse is a high turnover rate. You need bodies quickly. But maybe Chevette him a little more. And it was just one of those. It got to the point that pretty much week one he did it for math sake. He was doing like 2000 packages an hour. And then after my little commie, he's doing 1000 packages, essentially he went from like 300k a day to like 1,000,001 point 2 million. And that's where he's a, he was the laughingstock and everyone's like, what happens? The guard said, We just gotta give them games and food and break their back for us. And the guard fixed your problem. And he's like, Yeah, really? I apparently were all too removed.

mitch gray: 43:18

Yeah, yeah. Now it's very it's very true, though. Right? Yeah, it's very true.

Josh Bolton: 43:22

And that's where ever since that comment, he's always been in there at least twice a week. Just checking up on everyone. And last I heard I haven't heard from in a while. He's still doing that even during the pandemic. It was funny because then the zoo like metaphorical, the CEO of like the region, essentially. There was a whole drama debacle. We'll skip that part. But essentially, he called me in to talk about that. But also what I helped his is his second in command out with and he said, your guard? How did you know that? I'm like, I actually observe like my graphs as they should.

mitch gray: 43:58

Right? Yeah, saga said the story is always being told. It's always been told. It's gotta listen. And

Josh Bolton: 44:07

then it was just one of those. I did actually get to try the 250 steak dinner. They I guess they ordered it to go. This is like we need to give Josh at least one of the fancy steak dinner. And because like I said, there was drama, essentially, my boss just like tried to push me under a truck and all that. But it was just one of those. Yeah, they tried to kill me break me everything. And that's where he was talking because he the trucker that caught them was one of his workers. So he lived he had his cell and was like, hey, the security guards boss is trying to kill him. He might want to have a word. Well, and that's pretty much he just gave his blessing. He gave me the food and says if you need to leave, just go. Don't Don't even worry about it. Wow. And with this very shaky say, but if you ever need a job, you can always call me like I didn't know. I still have discard?

mitch gray: 45:01

Well, I'm glad you're still with us.

Josh Bolton: 45:05

Yeah, I've gone through a lot. Yeah. So that was the one that made me realize I'm like, Oh, maybe I do have something. Or and because the, the one guy that asked me the question, like, pulled out a checkbook personal check, how much do you want to know my 10 grand? It only was like five minutes $10,000 He wrote the check and everything. And he handed to me. And I was like,

mitch gray: 45:30

is it way too easy? Right? Right. So,

Josh Bolton: 45:37

but that was the one he's like, No, you that knowledge was good. You made me a lot of money. This were like, a kind of that boom, like, well, you could have avoided this by hiring the right people.

mitch gray: 45:50

Yeah, it's very true. It's very true. But But you're exactly right, observing that and then responding to it. And people often respond, they just don't respond in in the way that's the healthiest. You know, because he could have just kept firing people and bringing new people on, especially if he was using a temp agency. That's the easy way to go about it. So that's cool, man. That's cool.

Josh Bolton: 46:14

Well, and that's what I told him. I said, just set up will kind of like what you're teaching me today. So I indirectly was saying like, just, you doesn't have to be you. But give your standards to your supervisor and be like, yes to temperature send us but see if they match this, if they don't let them work a week or two, but send them on the way kind of thing.

mitch gray: 46:34

Right? Exactly. Right. Exactly. Right. Yeah. Yeah. See, you're good at this stuff. Man.

Josh Bolton: 46:40

I just need someone like you to be

Unknown: 46:43

here some details, though. They're good at the start. Yeah.

Josh Bolton: 46:46

Thank you. This has been awesome. I don't want to give you a little break before your next one. Yeah, where can everyone meet you at? Well, first of all, and I have my three other than work what I've been doing during COVID To keep yourself busy.

mitch gray: 47:01

Oh, good question. Traveling quite, I still travel quite a bit. Whether it's I go to see people or just I love to, I love to drive. So I bought a car and probably before COVID actually. And so that was in 2020. So it's about two years old now already at 50,000 miles on it. So I I like to drive. So travel. And really just, quite frankly, the last two years has been a lot about building, building business. And with the book, you know, I finished the book up and they got it published. So I guess I unfortunately have to say it's been a lot about work, but I do love traveling and camping and hiking and getting outdoors kind of keeps me sane. So yeah,

Josh Bolton: 47:45

yes. Yeah. I love going outdoors. I haven't been driving lately, because gas prices though.

mitch gray: 47:50

Well, you're in California, and it's extra on

Josh Bolton: 47:52

top of everything else. Yeah.

mitch gray: 47:56

I probably wouldn't, or I would buy a scooter or I might buy a scooter if I was in California. So I could still drive enough. Yeah.

Josh Bolton: 48:07

So so let's say someone is inspired by you wants to become more like you what are some tips, tricks or advice you'd give them to start down a similar path?

mitch gray: 48:19

Listen to your heart. Listen to your heart. And I know that's a I see on social media a lot, especially in the date. We're kind of in the day and age where people seem to be building tech companies really quickly. They say they're making a lot of money at it, whether they are or not, I don't know. But and so you kind of see this whole dialogue happening on social media, you know, don't listen to your heart, just build a good business and it's okay. And I just I'm very opposite of that. I believe in what's called the beginner's mind. So the beginner's mind is a teaching that says, when you were a child, your interests pointed the way to a fulfilled life. And so when you take that Curiosity has had as a kid, that's very connected to where you can be your best in life and oftentimes that your heart kind of telling you. And so for someone, you know, I think that's really important for employees that, you know, if you're working in a job that you absolutely hate, don't enjoy, don't find fulfillment in you may not quit it right now. But begin the journey of finding fulfillment. You know, we only literally have this life once. And it's so fun to not look fulfilled, you know, so, and it's easier said than done. But I think if you can walk that path that that would be my biggest piece of advice. Yeah. That's good. That's a

Josh Bolton: 49:41

really good advice. And so where can everyone contact you out if they want the just contact you or hire you?

mitch gray: 49:47

Yeah, email is simple, Mitch at Mitch gray. media.com. That's a gra y. So Mitch and Mitch Gray media.com. I am on LinkedIn. That's where I kind of sit on social media. So if you want to find me there as well because of a Little anywhere how to hire and keep great people but yeah shoot me an email I'd love to stay in touch and we'll see what we can do yeah

Josh Bolton: 50:06

awesome Mitch absolute honor and a pleasure to have you on thanks Josh I appreciate you so where did the