The Signs of Change | Leslie Bosch

Leslie Bosch, PhD, is a developmental psychologist and a
National Board Certified Health and Wellness Coach. Dr.
Leslie received her training as an integrative wellness coach
from the Andrew Weil Center for Integrative Medicine. Dr.
Bosch helps busy professionals and entrepreneurs minimize
the negative effects of stress so they can make a bigger
impact without sacrificing their health, well-being, or
personal relationships.

Links:
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https://boschintegrativewellness.com/

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Transcript

intro guy: 0:01

Welcome to the Josh Bolton show. interesting and inspiring conversations. And now your host, Josh Bolton.

Josh Bolton: 0:15

Welcome everybody. Today we have a reoccurring guest, Lesley Bosch. It is fabulous to always have her on. We I was just telling her earlier before the mic actually went hot and recording is just the the two sessions she already had with me. And the insights from her perspective have just drastically shifted my world and for the better. And well, you know, I don't want to give the whole story away, Leslie. Take it away. Juice yourself.

lessie: 0:44

Okay, Joshua, thank you so much for the opportunity to be back on the show. I really enjoy speaking with you and sharing with your listeners, and I love hearing that you're gaining some benefit yourself that nothing makes me like happier than that. So thank you for sharing.

Josh Bolton: 1:01

Thank you. And honestly, it's one of those when you first came on, it was like the perfectionism problem in this night. And I actually like, it's funny how she, like we time everything. Because I was struggling with that I was reading books and this and that, but it wasn't setting and it was just like how she phrased it was like you. It was the athletic versus perfectionism. There's there's that fine line like Insanity, and creativity, and just clicked on like, Oh, I am overbearing and forcing my opinion on people when they shouldn't.

lessie: 1:36

Oh, so there was something I said, Okay, got it. Got it. So,

Josh Bolton: 1:43

again, before I steal the show away, tell us a little about yourself how you got to this point?

lessie: 1:49

You bet you bet. So before I became a coach, like many Americans, I was working long hours in a very demanding job. And unfortunately, I didn't realize it at the time. But I was also mismanaging my stress, I was eating lots of junk food, I wasn't exercising, I was sleeping poorly. I was snapping at my husband because I was tense all the time. And I certainly wasn't having any fun. And I didn't realize it at the time. But I was unwittingly trading, my well being my health and my personal relationships for career success. And it was starting to show. So fortunately, I enrolled in a wellness class that was offered to the Andrew Weil Center for Integrative Medicine, where I learned about an integrative approach to health. And briefly, an integrative approach to health recognizes the interdependence of seven core areas of health, including sleep, nutrition, movement, relationships, resilience, spirituality, and environment. And as you can imagine, during the class, I was basically encouraged to clean up my act in all these seven core areas of health, which I did. And after several months of concerted effort, I began to feel better, I lost some weight, I felt more relaxed, more connected to my husband, more purposeful and productive again. And I was so happy with my lifestyle changes that I took my efforts to the next level, and it became a national board certified health and wellness coach, and now I work with others to improve the quality of their lives. To me,

Josh Bolton: 3:14

that's wonderful. As fantastic. Every time you tell their story just always hit star for me. So we wanted to go over the what was it again? We were gonna go over today?

lessie: 3:28

Well, basically, we were going to talk about the change process. Like a lot of times people wonder why is change so difficult? Yeah, yes. And? Well, it's and I wanted to sort of share with the listeners that essentially change is so difficult, because once we get that self regulatory system, once it becomes automatic, it aims to maintain itself, it's kind of like the thermostat on your heating and cooling system. Once you establish a temperature setting, then the system works tirelessly to maintain that setpoint. So essentially, change aims to, to to create a new setpoint you know, to change the temperature as well as it works. And this can be really challenging, right? Unfortunately, it's not as easy as just going up and saying, Okay, give me make it two degrees warmer, two degrees colder, that we are that mechanism, right that is keeping us at a certain temperature. So when friends you know, figuratively, metaphorically, so how is it that we can create a new setpoint because when we try to do that, we're going to interrupt our equilibrium, and there's going to be distress, right? So it'll be in a way you're kind of create even a kind of contention between the old way of doing things and the new way of doing things. And a lot of times early on, you'll feel that you keep falling prey to the old way of Doing things. And that can be very discouraging.

Josh Bolton: 5:03

Yes, it can be very discouraging, especially for someone who sets the bar high expects it every time. It's very hard,

lessie: 5:11

or exactly expects it to happen boom, overnight. Right without realizing that it is going to take some time. Yeah. And what you can, what you can be doing to support yourself in making the change so that the new way of doing things wins more frequently. That makes sense. Yes, yeah.

Josh Bolton: 5:29

You have to disrupt it and move it around. So it's not complacent stays in one place.

lessie: 5:36

Exactly. Otherwise, yes. And that is what you're doing with change. You are perturbing as it were the old system. And that's where you're going to feel all the distress.

Josh Bolton: 5:48

Yeah, sorry, my parents just came back and the dogs go crazy. I'm like, I'm gonna mute. The, the disruption part is the I think where I'm struggling with. So that's where I'm now curious for you. I'm trying to, especially from the previous sessions, we've chatted on the show about, I've realized for me, like, I'm very analytical, which is not a bad thing. But when you analyze everything to the cold science, and you look at someone who could tell they're depressed, angry, something else, that they didn't eat food, and then you just address them as if you already know it. They think you're a freak. It's, and it's for me, but I've always been like that. I'm like, wait, I don't understand why can't I make a genuine connection? And that's recently I realized, I'm like, Oh, I just seem so inhuman kind of thing. So my, my changes, what I'm trying to do is it's it's really boiled down version, but it's like, I'm trying to act like a California surfer dude is like, Whoa, man, we're like, going through live this and that. It's been working, but it's hard for me to sustain. That's where I'm curious for you. How would slow incremental changes to where you would prescribe for people?

lessie: 7:04

Okay, okay. Well, for me, so, for me, what I'm hearing there with what you're what you're saying, people see you, as a freak, I think kind of what's happening there is you're kind of just getting there before they're ready to get there. It's kind of like they're the ones. So like, as coaches, this is part of the challenge, right, we might could see something that's going on there. But if we kind of drop that bomb on them, before they see it, then it can feel like they're exposed or something, right. So as coaches, a lot of what we have to do is try and help them to see themselves when they're ready to see it. So we do a lot of reflecting in an effort to help them sort of catch sight of it, even though you I think that's the thing, right? When we talk about blind spots, most, we're usually the last to know, most everybody else can see what we're doing. Right. But it's hard sometimes for us to see ourselves and in large part that is because we're defending against it. And that's one of the things I wanted to talk about. So I think one of the best things that you can do when you're trying to make a change, right, is to increase your change IQ. And the way you become more literate around change. And so one of the one of the things that you can learn about change is that you can recognize the Stages of Change. Other thing you can do is recognize typical roadblocks that you're apt to come across when you're going through the change process. And then of course, other things that can be very helpful are to know remedies to address each of the kind of roadblocks stumbling blocks that you're going to face as you go through the change process. So when you become an expert, change artist, then essentially change like, for me, this is the ultimate UV Kang the ultimate human being because life is change. And change is constantly coming at us. Right? But if you know how to do change, well, then you're gonna become like really good at like,

Josh Bolton: 9:17

yeah, and that's like, the slow thing I'm coming at and realizing and say, Oh, I whether I like it or not, I can't stay in one place is like metaphor. If you're not. Well, I'm gonna amorphous if you're not moving, you're you're dying kind of thing. It's the if you're not growing, you're dying. But yeah, and I've just realized that. So let's just say for you. It's something simple. It's not simple. It would be like I guess giving up smoking.

lessie: 9:45

Absolutely. Absolutely. All of these changes Well, again, it's a challenge right now to make these blanket statements about change because some change can be really quick and really easy. It can be just a mindset flip. Right? Other things like smoking are probably going to be really challenging because the something that is really habituated, you've got like a certain dependency on nicotine that you are going to need to sort of wean yourself off of the same can be true for sugar, carbs, these kinds of things, right. So the point is, in some other things like exercising will just be a while to want to get it into your calendar. So again, we have to understand that changes, the changes we want to make will be different in the amount, the time, the effort, the investment, all those kinds of things, we can't say that all changes are going to be exactly the same. So that's another nuanced piece about change. That makes sense.

Josh Bolton: 10:45

Absolutely. And the the impact of the change. Like for me, the reason I brought up smoking is because I used to well, when cigarettes or air quote, cheaper, I was smoking in theater, it was the only way you could take a break. But it was just, it became such a habit that I just kept it. But I don't know, it's, I guess, a little bit unfair, but also weird for me. I have like ADHD. So if I decide something like, I'm not going to smoke, I act like I've never smoked before. And it just it goes away can be a blessing and a curse. Because then it's like, I don't feel sad ever again. And I forget to flip the switch. And I'm like, Why do I always feel angry? Kind of thing. But yeah, it's but the for me, though, because I've watched others lean off. And I told him I said, if you smoked six cigarettes, smoke five and a half. I know it's painful to watch it and like, not do the full six. And then like, it was just one of those eventually got them down to like one. But then I realized now this is the part where I'm curious for you what I'm building on to, they leaned off cigarettes, but they started drinking just as much coffee. So how can they make a lasting change that they don't fill in with something else?

lessie: 12:06

Right. So that's, that's, that's exactly what they need to be doing a lot of change, especially when we're talking about you know, substances like cigarette like coffee, cigarettes sugar, is you really do have to have that suitable substitute that you are reaching for. And then you really do have to try and stick with that. So that you don't, like you said, swap one sort of staring into your lungs and ruin the stimulant for another. Right. Some of it is like learning how to be in a lower stimulate stimulated state and be okay with that, right? find other ways to fill in and make sure that you know what's going on. But if I can, I'd like to tell you what the stages of change are. Would that be okay? Absolutely. Okay, so basically, again, I love researchers, because basically, they spent 40 years studying something. And basically what these scholars Prochaska and DiClemente did is they took all this, lots and lots of people talk about change. So for instance, you know, the hero's journey, right with Joseph Campbell, yes, he took like all the religions of the world, and he sort of distilled them all down into 12 steps that all of the various religions had in terms of their stories, right? Well, the same is true here with this change process. This is called the transtheoretical model of change, which means that they really took all these change theories, and they distilled them down until they found the essential stages for change. And so this is basically what I'm going to be sharing with you. And so in stage one, what they call pre contemplation, a people are often unaware that their behavior is problematic, or produces negative consequences. So a lot of times this is when we sort of talk about oh, that was a blind spot, like I did not know, for me, you know, I did not know that stress was a problem. I did not know that it underpinned all these poorly managed stress underpins all these chronic diseases like heart disease, diabetes, all these diseases that sort of get us right in the end. Yeah. And I don't think, you know, doctors, scientists, they didn't know that either. They only just now discovered it. So now that we know, right, when we become aware, then we tend to overestimate the cons of changing and underestimate the pros of changing. So people in this stage don't intend to change, right? Because they don't see that they have a problem yet. So in this stage, you'll hear people talk in terms of like I won't or I can't make the change. So again, as I mentioned, someone like me who's struggling with stress Some management may not be willing to change because they've yet to really recognize the connection between their stress the way they're handling it, inflammation and chronic disease. Right? So that they may imagine again, yeah, stress is just a part of life, like, what do you want me to do about it? Right? Right. Then in stage two, like something happens, where they really do recognize, like, oh, my gosh, this is a huge problem. And I really do need to make a change, right? A lot of times people will find this, like, for instance, a smoker when they get lung cancer, then it's a little late, right? Yes, but the point is, or the person has their first heart attack, right? So but the point or a surfer stroke, or their first you know, their blood, you know, their test results start going high, their cholesterol starts getting high, these kinds of things, right? Until there really is until it kicks in their door, they get cancer, whatever kicks in their door, and they go like, Okay, this is it. Is this real? Now, this is not just a thing that can happen to other people. This is thing that's happening to me, right? So in this stage, people do recognize that their behavior may be problematic. However, they're also conflicted about the change. They're the ones that are kind of you've seen, I'm sure, should I shouldn't I should, I should, I should, I should know, they can't get off the fence. They're caught between the pros and cons of changing.

Josh Bolton: 16:21

Oh, that was totally me. The reason I didn't start my podcast was like, oh, I should I like talking to people. But I shouldn't because two internet mobs will come after me and I'll lose my current job. And then that will was I was I was on that shadow for it was 2017. So like, three years.

lessie: 16:40

Exactly. And this is what's so important to understand, like a lot of change. In this way, we're going to talk a lot about the ops the roadblocks that you'll get in these first two stages. Because a lot of people never get out of these stages, they never really actually get on the road to change. So these people, people in the contemplation stage really do intend to change, but not in the foreseeable future. And you'll hear them say things like, I may make the change, I'm thinking about it, right? So in our stress management example, an individual may, on the one hand, recognize that worrying is keeping them up at night. But on the other hand, they just can't imagine how they're going to take on one more commitment. Like how am I going to find the time to do so to meditate or something like that? Right? Right. So in stage three, they call it preparation. In this stage, people are ready to take action in the near future. And they start to take those small steps toward the behavioral change. And they believe that changing their behavior can lead to a better life. So people in this stage will say things like, I will make the change. And our stress management example, the individual will have decided that it's time to do something. And we'll have started looking into possible solutions, right? Like, I'm going to take a yoga class, or I'm going to download an app and I'm going to start a meditation practice, right, something like that. Then in stage four, with a call to action, in this stage, people have recently started changing their behavior, and intend to keep moving forward with the behavioral change. So in this stage, people will say things like I am making the change, right, so in our stress management example, the individual will have begun taking a yoga class or started their meditation practice, and they have plans to continue. And then in Stage Five, are what they call maintenance. This is where people sustained their behavioral change for more than six months, and intend to maintain the change going forward. So in this, in this stage, people work hard to prevent relapse to earlier stages. So pretty much everything that we do ongoingly, we're pretty much already in stage five of that change, because we're pretty much maintaining those behaviors that those gains those wins, right? And sometimes, even what we are maintaining, we can be tweaking that all the time, right? So then we might see something. And we might say like, oh, maybe I should add that to my routine, right, then we're kind of moving in that direction. Again, with that pre contemplation? Yes. Should I? Is it worth the price? Is it worth this? You know, then they might start preparing? Well, how do I get it? How much will it cost, right, and then they start maybe actually incorporating it, then that becomes the new change that they're maintaining. So the point is, we can see this the stages of change. You know, depending on our various behaviors we can have, can get quite complex, you know what I'm saying? You can have like 15 behaviors that are in various stages of change. And then those changes that you elect to make can be really big ones, like stop smoking, or they can be small tweaks to like your, your diet like ongoingly as you just keep polishing, polishing, polishing. So that makes sense. So we just want to understand that change this change thing can get real The complicated, there can be a lot of change going on.

Josh Bolton: 20:03

Oh, yeah, it does get very complicated. Like how you were explaining the polishing and polishing for the diet, for me is? Well, the others can see it is like I have a very unorganized method of filing things. And I realized when I was on my cruise, actually, right before it was right after I chatted with you, is when I went on to the cruise. And I just realized, like, I actually don't like clutter because everything was super clean in the room. And that's when I realized, and I made a promise to myself, Mike, I'm not because every time I've done it, as gung ho all or nothing, I will take that whole thing empty, thrown in a trash bag, throw it in the garbage can. And then like six months later be like shit, I actually needed something from that. So my personal rule is slowly on my days off when I'm not interviewing people is pick a section. So like, my next one is this, just pick one section, sort that out. If I finish it, then I go to the next one kind of thing. And it's been way more sustainable, for me at least, is that similar to what you were presenting in a concept?

lessie: 21:11

Absolutely. So. So you would be again, you would have gone through all those stages. And when you were actually taking action, you would have been in the action stage. But now it sounds like you, you keep sort of trying things. And now you found something that you want to maintain. And all of this would be in the name of your big change is of more decluttering. But it's a more like neat, organized environment. Yes. And that's like a big again, that would be one of the seven core areas of help. And they would say that absolutely clutter. Your environment really does impact how you think how you feel. And so that's great that you're doing that. Plus, it just makes it so much easier when you actually need stuff out of your pile.

Josh Bolton: 21:54

So great. I'm gonna say it's out of camera. But I have a little triangle set up for organizing. And I have a set now for one is my gimbal for my camera, then all the camera gear, and then all my daily stuff. And I have I have it. If painting tape I cut up. It's silly looking, I'll figure out a way to make it more official of paint. But it's like, this section is daily yours. This is like kind of daily yours, this, this and this. And I'm like, I love it. Now I just reach in and grab whatever I need and just leave.

lessie: 22:23

Excellent. Yes. Excellent. Congratulations. Congratulations, Josh. That's a huge accomplishment. Especially if somebody you know, especially if, you know, it's easy to it's just in general, it's easy to get disorganized. There's a lot going on. And a lot of times making like people don't enjoy organizing. And certainly, yeah, it can be hard to make time for it.

Josh Bolton: 22:48

Yeah. And that's where like now I've rescheduled everything. So when I book things, I always block one day out. So it's three days for people to book, and then I get my martial arts day. And then my like, organize date now. Well, I realized I have two days, so might Okay, so one is organizing and one's editing videos scattered thing. I just interchange them as needed. But yeah, that's, I'm pretty sure somewhere in all that you influenced me to definitely do that.

lessie: 23:18

That's like what they use is a great, it's a great example of the stages that we're talking about. So that's great. Thank you. You're welcome. So now typical roadblocks that people are going to find on the way to change do you want to hear some of those? Like so typical roadblocks are going to be things like, I don't know how demoralisation defending doubt, delay, dread of failure, and distress, right? So I want to I want to talk especially about three of these that can happen in the first in stage one and stage two. Right. So or, which is contemplate pre contemplation and contemplation. And so these are really the defensiveness that don't know how and the dread of failure. So it's hard. So first of all, like I said, one of the biggest challenges that we face is really our ability to defend the status quo. And again, this harkens back to the analogy I made about the thermostat on your heating and cooling system. So unfortunately, if that habit is not a good habit, then it's really problematic. That thing is just running, running, running, running, running, running, right? If it's a great habit, then it's such a blessing. It's such a boon. But if it's a bad habit, it's really can again become problematic. So some of the ways that we can defend against, again against change is really we can tune out through selective attention by changing the topic of conversation. So when somebody starts talking about something, then you're like, No, that doesn't apply to me and you just sort of stopped listening, right? Yes. So unfortunately, when we use this defense, it eliminates opportunity to gather useful information about our problem and potential solutions, right? Because we just didn't even get that information. It's not even on our radar, right? And again, these things happen without our awareness. So it's sometimes we know that we're like, okay, hey, man, yeah, like, you know, just, I'm tuning that out, right? Or I'm leaving or whatever. But a lot of times, we're sort of doing this automatically, our brain just wanders off to something else. So another thing we can do is internalize what they call internalizing. And this is really where we attack and blame and punish yourself for what's going on. Right? You shouldn't you should have done a better job, you shouldn't have this problem, you shouldn't be doing that. Why are we having to deal this with this with this, again, this kind of thing. And unfortunately, when we use this defense, it really takes a toll on our self esteem, and on our self efficacy. So we really have to be able to hear that we're doing that to ourselves, right? Yes. Another thing,

Josh Bolton: 26:08

go ahead and say I just I know, for me, especially the analyzing I was telling you earlier, it wasn't a bad thing, but my my brain took it as well. It didn't go according to plan. So your error, you are the fault that you need to change or like this and that and and was actually, I was trying to do the whole online dating for earlier this year. And I was now my whatever. It's hole hole. It's like everyone's broken on the internet. So we're not going to talk about that. But but one of the ladies that was willing to tolerate she realized like I was inexperienced in this nine, she's like, You do realize like, that's where I got the analyzing from she's like, you're over analyzing, you're reading in between the lines, when it was just a statement. There was no hidden message to it. And she's like, it's very intimidating when a man extrapolates that far into it. And I'm like, Oh, yes, yeah, no, no, is literally just now you told me that no one in my however many years of doing this told me that kind of thing.

lessie: 27:11

Well, yeah, so for her. That's like, so interesting, right? So for you. Yes, yes. So this is another really cool thing to understand, which is everybody is going to read your behavior differently, right? So some people may really appreciate your super website, your insight, right? Or you're thinking a few things down the road, and be like, really excited, like, wait a minute, how did you if you how do you make the connection from here to there? Like, what are you trying to say, right, and be really fascinating and treat other people for her. She found it intimidating. She found it intimidating. So that was critical information for you to recognize that this that this behavior you're engaging in is not by definition, value neutral. But rather people are going to take that behavior, and they're going to evaluate how helpful it is. Yeah, in her case, it was not helpful in someone else's case, it might be Oh, that's really helpful. Thank you. Right. So you, you, you do need to recognize that. The Yeah, the other person is the judge. And right now we can hope I'm offering this to you in the hopes that you will find it very valuable. But we don't know. And sometimes we can people can still say like, no, no, I don't like that. Don't do that.

Josh Bolton: 28:36

Right. And that's the biggest one. And that's where like I'm working on the universal persona be more, I still have the analytical side of me running all the time. But it's like, Hey, this is when the New York Stock Exchange was still open, and everyone can go on the floor. And you just hear the yelling the bells when papers flying everywhere. Well, that's my brain ahead, like, half a second, like the whole, five minutes feels them yelling was like, a minute for me. So it's just, it is just chaos. And I've learned, okay, don't comment about things you hear and see and predict kind of thing. Just stack mellow. seemed normal. When someone is actually interested in that side of you, then yeah, open up about it, but don't necessarily just lead with the, because you did this, this this you're stressed and liberal buttons like

lessie: 29:26

Yes. And they're there. I would say yes. If I were coaching you, I would say yes, Josh and that's really important that you understand that you're making those assumptions, and that you want to catch your mind doing that. Right. So So again, going back if we think about nonviolent communication, one of the things that the first distinctions and this is an NLP to one of the first distinctions is the difference between like that sensory based and the sort of editorial. That means that means that means that means right, so I heard you Raise your voice that means you're angry. Right? So that's the thing we got to watch. Always be watching. So whatever that person said, you can always say, when I heard you say these exact words, I made it mean or I told myself a story or I thought you meant XYZ PQ, r, and then I got scared. But I don't know, is that really true? What did you mean when you said that? Right? So that's where we always want to be doing that reality testing. And that is a huge again, when we talk about mind management, mind management, again, that is a huge mind management thing to see our mind piecing stuff together. And sort of taking it for fact, rather than Oh, you know, where I went with that when you said that I went there. But when you said that what you meant was that, isn't that fascinating, right? So again, we can get interested and excited about that. And this is where I mean, this is mostly what coaching is, you know, that this is mostly what NLP is just getting really curious about what people mean when they say the things they say or do the things they do, and slowing everything down and making sure that we're not also adding stuff, but rather staying just really curious. But that's so great that you can see your mind being that busy. So busy adding stuff, right? It's really piecing a bunch of stuff together.

Josh Bolton: 31:25

Well, it's one of those I'm sure I've always had it. But I've probably told you this earlier, and I'll give you the quick summary, I was just constantly bullied and harassed and loot from my survival technique was predicted before they could attacked. Yes. And it's just one of those I'm now learning that is not a good habit to have. It felt like it was a strategist for the military. It's great, very aggressive. And the problem before it is problem. But I'm not in war. That doesn't work that way. Kind of thing. Yeah.

lessie: 31:59

Yeah. And so here, we would really want to bring that self compassion to your younger self. And to understand Yeah, I really cultivated this strategy for coping, when it was I could get ambushed around every corner, somebody could jump out at me. So I had to constantly be thinking about all the ways to prepare for those attacks. So yeah, and yeah, so being able, so in this case, if we're trying to extinguish that, or we're trying to set that aside and recognize, so you know, that's very contextual. And I'll let you know when I need that. Yeah, this person, I probably don't need that here. I can just trust that he probably won't be ambushed on this call. But you never know. I mean, ambush you with something unexpected, right? And I think sometimes when you share these insights that you have with people that they're not prepared for others to know, or they think they've hidden well, and then suddenly you say, Well, I think yeah, then it's kind of like you've ambush them. Right?

Josh Bolton: 33:00

I will Yeah, I was as much as I was being ambushed. I wasn't physically ambushing people but I was I was a kind of got to a weird party trick point where like, I could ask you three questions. I knew everything about you. From your tonality. I didn't even know I was using NLP. And now like as I'm listening to this ladies, two nights NLP at work, as I'm sitting here going, Oh, my gosh, no wonder no one like everyone's like, how does he know that dark secret about me? And, and I would just say, well, it was your tonality, your pitch your speed, the way you would like, awkwardly this or that, you would look like reassuring. And everyone just kind of looked at me like I was a wizard. And it was just kind of one of those. Mike is one of those. I don't know how to turn it off. Yeah,

lessie: 33:50

well, yeah. So what you're turning off is just sharing that information with them. The rest of it, you don't have to turn it off, you can continue to be noticing all those things about that most people are just not that great at noticing. Most people again, are very busy, sort of regulating themselves. And they're aren't noticing, noticing, noticing stuff like that. So again, it's a real skill. But again, if we feel especially if it's a dark secret, and you sort of out them, then of course they're going to feel in that way also very ambushed. And that's going to feel very intimidating, that is not going to develop trust, it's going to develop like again more not report the opposite, more defensive maneuvering with you might avoid you or whatever. Because now if they really, if you seem like a warm, that's not true for everyone again, if you seem like a warm and caring person, then they might gravitate toward you and then spill their guts and then be you know, accepted and then feel better about everything. To a certain extent that is kind of what we want to do with coaches or therapists or whatever it is. We really want to be able to address the shame that we're feeling from some of these things that happen to us. So help and having people help us know how to do it. So all I'm trying to say, again, is that these behaviors are kind of value neutral. And the person that we're being with is going to decide whether or not they're valuable or not whether or not this comforting or threatening. That makes sense,

Josh Bolton: 35:18

really a pullback, by the way. Yeah. And that's kind of where I've come to the point where it's like, I don't have to tell them about the insanity of like my metaphorical stock market in my head going on. First of all, it's extremely intimidating, like how the hell did you process all that so quickly, kind of thing. But it's also for me, it's not meant for them. If they asked for it, then obviously share it. But yeah, that I'm also having to learn the tactfulness. Yet tactless, you won't be tactful. It how to maybe say something without being so straight to the point and hurting people too. That's another one. That's a hard one because I, again, with a survival technique, I would just say it as it is raw, because I knew it hurt them, that I didn't beat around the bush. So they would leave me alone kind of thing. I guess what would be some of the tactics for that? How for? A good kind of what I'm trying to leave this whole show for is how do you calm your personality? From your coaching perspective? I know it's not an overnight fix. Well, we can establish that.

lessie: 36:27

Right? Well, for me, yeah, it wouldn't. Right? Well, it's in terms of the change process that we were sort of talking about here. I think that the good news is that you've already sort of recognized or you're no longer in pre contemplation, and you're no longer in contemplation, you're well into preparation now, trying to figure out how can I do it, and you're also in action with some things and you're also in maintenance with some aspects of this. But what I love about what you're doing is that you're it's really all about mind management, that you're coming to understand that, that once upon a time, there was Josh, who had all these incredible potentials, right? Then he was thrown into the situation, and he became a stripper all of us, he became as it were a personality. And now he is a grown man, all of us, all people, hopefully, that have they want to break out of their personality, they're finding that their personality as a solution to their problems really is becoming the problem. Now, the problem now, so they really know that they just want to branch out, they want to branch out, they want to expand, they want to have they want to add some potentials to their repertoire. It's not really that they because we really probably can't escape fully escape our personality. Unfortunately, our personality is kind of like ingrained. And when you realize that it can be a really sad day. But the point is, we can and even Richie Davis talks about this, who talks about neuroplasticity, he talks about like six continuums that your brain seems to sort on it's a fascinating book, I highly recommend it. What's it called hawk. It's Richie Davidson's book on I can't remember what it is. But neuroplasticity if you really want it, I'll give you I'll give it to you. I'll look it up and give it to him. But he talks about like six dimensions, it's another way he looks at personality, but where we tend to fall in terms of these six continuums around functionality. And he talks about with neuroplasticity, we can hope to tweak those things like 10 15%, right? But those 10 to 15% tweaks, again on six dimensions, you know, can really make a difference. So this is kind of again, we want to sort of be realistic in a way about what we can hope for with regard to reworking our, our personality, but which is really just how we've come to make sense of the world. If that was

Josh Bolton: 39:10

Oh, absolutely.

lessie: 39:12

So I think what you're doing there is one of the biggest tweaks that you're trying to make is really with that trust mistrust. And you're trying to to figure out that you can maybe start with a little more trust that people aren't necessarily out to ambush you are out to get you or to bully you. And then you could just sort of try and be let it unfold bit by bit by bit. Little conversations without necessarily having to jump like so far down the road if that makes sense. Less

Josh Bolton: 39:48

Oh, thank you. That would have been a loud one. Yeah, that's that's the actually you nailed it on the spot. But I've also probably just been giving you the data. Is that is the biggest point where I'm at is the Who can I trust Who? What's the point where I can go to this, but if I go over, it gets a little gray not worth it. And that's the new one I'm trying to learn. And yeah, the the analogy, the six points, I have 13 degrees. That's how I've seen it now. I look at things as charts now. Because I'm, and I see like, okay, it's going here, but crashing, like, what could I have done to reprojected? Backup kind of thing?

lessie: 40:26

Exactly, exactly. So you're just noticing all those transition points and everything. It's like, so cool, right? Totally, like, Who's that guy that does those, you're really good, I can't think of those logical levels, you're really at Synergy. You're at Synergy. And you're really that's where you're getting those graphs coming in, and all that. So it's very exciting, very exciting. And it's fun to be sort of understanding that your mind is this wonderful mechanism, but you want it to work for you, rather than it using you, you want to use it. And that's kind of where you're where you're at. So, again, in terms of defensiveness, I just wanted to say other things that we can do is we can project by blaming others, right, so we can blame ourselves, we can blame others. And when we blame others, unfortunately, this defense removes the opportunity to learn from our mistakes, and to take control of our contribution to the solution. And this is really, a lot of times we can feel very disempowered, very disenfranchised, very victimized by what's going on. So if we are blaming others, then we've lost sight of where do I have any control in this situation. So we really want to try and you know, not do that. Then finally, we can rationalize, right or rely on probable explanations for our behavior. And so unfortunately, again, this defense ensures that we will suffer the consequences of our unhealthy behavior. So again, we're just talking about when we're in pre contemplation when we still have that blind spot, as it were, and we've yet to really recognize that what we're doing is problematic and really isn't going to serve us in the long run, then we have ways to to keep that, you know, to defend or protect our bad habit. Like I said, we can tune out we can internalize, we can project and we can rationalize. And these things again, and when sometimes when people say I want to get out of my own way, a lot of times these are the kinds of things that we're talking about, right? So for example, for me, when I struggled with stress management in the past, like I tune out when people told me to calm down, nothing would make me more angry than when people would tell me Take a chill pill. Calm down. Why are you so upset? Right? This never helped me write the I would just say no, they don't understand, just tune out. Like that's the end of the conversation rather than going forward and saying, wait a minute, how can I calm down? Why aren't you upset? What is going on in your world such that you're calm right now, when I'm distraught, right when I'm like, the alarm bells are going off, right? I'd also go home, I just go back wherever and attack myself and say You're such a worrywart. You're such a piece of garbage. I can't believe that you you're not like everybody else robust and up to up to speed and up to snuff. Why do you keep breaking down? Right? And or I blame others, right? And I'd say, look, you're just not being supportive, or you're pushing my buttons, or you're setting me up for failure. Right? And or I'd rationalized, basically, by just saying, well, stress is just part of living, and I just have to put up with it, you know, but then I really, like I said, it really wasn't until I started to recognize, again, the wake up call was when I started to have these health issues. And I started to say, like, you know, I've got to make a change. Because if I don't in the long run, it's going to put me in an early grave. And I don't really want that or it's going to I'm going to be sickly, and that's going to be dreadful. I don't want to be around for that. Right. So as long as we can fool ourselves into thinking that everything's okay, then it's really difficult to take an honest look at our risky behaviors and increase our awareness enough to move from stage one into stage two. That makes sense where we're thinking about, should I make a change?

Josh Bolton: 44:19

Oh, absolutely. They didn't know this has been so beautiful and elegant and just how you're explaining it. I believe I cut we went off the tracks around five. The recognition is you or did we touch on everything now?

lessie: 44:33

Yes, we talked we touched the five stages are basically I said, pre contemplation, which is where you don't know you have a problem contemplation where you recognize you have a problem, but you're on the fence. You don't know if you should or shouldn't do anything about it. The third is where you're preparing. You're saying okay, how do I want to gear up for this? I'm going to make the change, but how am I going to do it? Right? You're casting looking about four different solutions right? Then in action, you found a solution and you are implementing it, right. And then in the third and the final stage, the fifth stage, sorry, the fourth stage, you are in maintenance. So now it's all in that usually after six months of being an action, right, because it's going to take, you're going to be on off on off on off, there'll be a lot of challenges and setbacks in action phase, this is why a coach can be or anybody accountability buddy can be so helpful, because it'll keep you coming back. Because you'll feel again, like I said, in that dance, or in that contention, you know, between the old and the new way of doing things, the old way will just be, you know, beaten the you know what out of the new way of doing it, you'll feel it can be hard sometimes to stick with it. So that's kind of what's going on in terms of the action phase. And then once you get into the maintenance phase, you're pretty much you've got it down. But you're still still possible that you can ever relapse, but your whole self is geared to getting right back on track.

Josh Bolton: 46:04

And from like, especially like you how you were saying the I will beat myself up. And when I would get home and play with everyone. I think that was just the inner critic, I didn't realize how to control that voice. And yeah, I was brutal to myself. And it was one of those. You know, my sister randomly just says one off nuggets that just like, change everything and it's just it's nothing for her. Because like I had a coffee problem like a pot of coffee a day, bad. And out Mike at a certain point, my heart was going through the roof. You could like see it here. And then you could see in my Adam's apple it was just going and and then as you said you'd like lifting music. You do realize caffeine has a half life of eight hours. I don't like it does, as I'm sitting there like twitching the coffee shake. Yeah. So if you're going to drink it to just kind of get alert for the night, cut all caffeine off by five three M kind of like picked up her phone walked somewhere else. And in that's where I actually told her on the cruise on my thank you so much for that, like one off comment about coffee. And she's like, I told you that it was just one of those. I just heard something. And I wanted to give you a suggestion. I'm like, kind of remember that kinda? Yeah. And then she said the same thing about other things, where it's just one of those one off comments now and kind of like, turn to listen to those.

lessie: 47:35

Exactly, exactly. So that's absolutely. So that's great that she was helping you to understand, you know, how long was going to take you to metabolize that stimulant? Right. So for me with that, that voice that you mentioned, this is like just understanding that like, it's kind of like our bodies come with these ready made ways to defend against psychological threats. And these are four of the ways that we talked about that those those are pre packaged pre loaded into our brain. So everybody is coping with those defensive mechanisms right, that defensive maneuvering that tries to get us as it were, let us off the hook. And so that's great that we can when we can just begin to say like oh, there you go. Blaming yourself okay, that's internalizing, that's a defense against Yeah, you want to be for me, again, like you perhaps it always came back to I know, you want to be perfect, but perfect doesn't exist. And it's really remember, I had to remind myself, this is about lifelong learning, lifelong learning, lifelong learning. And of course, there would be another part of me, it'd be like, great. Another thing I have to do, there's too many things to do too many things. Isn't there anything about me? That's acceptable, you know, that kind of thing? isn't well, like, why is there so much to rework? And it's just sort of like, well, like I said, when I got into that course, with the seven core areas of health, it was like, Oh, I didn't realize all of this information. So in a way, it was like, Well, yeah, your parents didn't do you any favors, Leslie, Leslie, they left a lot of unfinished business. Or we could say, yeah, the world is changing all the time. And what what's demanded of you, and what we know about how things function best is constantly changing. So if we think about it, it's just like you have to constantly be up leveling up leveling up leveling, so then it becomes like, oh, it's it's like life is lifelong learning constantly. It's really just sort of one learning cycle after another for me when I realized with the heroic journey, it's like, Oh, I gotta go on this journey over and over and over and over and over and over. And I don't even know if I'm going to get any rest before the next like call. Have comes right. So then I then I had a better understanding of Reality, right? Like how frequently you were going to get these calls to go on these learning journeys, these heroic journeys, which are really like learning curves, how frequently you're going to be asked to do that, how quickly you're going to be asked to do that how steep the learning curve was going to be. So once I started to understand that this, this is just life, there's something wrong with you. This is why if this is how it works, then I was able to let go of that defensive maneuvering, and thinking that it shouldn't be like this, that and I realized, oh, here we go. This is life. And yeah, living it.

Josh Bolton: 50:36

That's the biggest one for me. Because I with the self critic, the overanalyzing of my actions, I would get into some really dark depressions where like, I'd lay on that bed over there in a corner for days, only time I would move as go to my job. Rarely do my job enough to not get fired, come home and sleep the rest of the time. And I was actually talking with a friend about that because she's she's struggling with depression. I'm like, Oh, well, I'm very familiar with those demons. I don't see him anymore, but I know of them. So you're in that's where she's like, Oh, you're so lucky. I'm like, Okay, well, I've learned to turn those voices off. Command. That's the that's the only thing. Different I said, I still get depressed at times I go to work and like, Why the hell am I doing this dead end job again? Well, yeah, I need the money. So I can afford this. So in for that, then I can quit, kind of thing. But it's just I told her I'm like, it's just a much quicker rebound. Yes, then

lessie: 51:36

yes, it's like back to that same thing. You said, you've recognized that you have a mind. Sometimes when we really get in these dark places before that. It's like we think it's the truth. We believe what our mind is saying we believe we are what our mind, we are our mind. Right. So that is a huge distinction, when you understand No, I'm a human being who has a mind. And the mind has been constructed just like a you know, like, like a machine or whatever it's been constructed over time with basically, unfortunately, it really is conclusions that I drew from experiences. And what I didn't understand, because I didn't have enough data at the time when I was drawing those conclusions is that a lot of those conclusions were wrong. So there are a lot of things that I have, because of course, when we get upset is when things don't go according to our expectations. So that's when I really had to go in there and see that my expectations were flawed, that they were woefully like too far away from reality. So like, for me, my whole life became Oh, I get it, I'm moving my map of the territory asymptotically closer to reality, every single day, I'm getting my map more accurate, so that it more accurately reflects the actual train, right. And this is, again, a lifelong process. And as a human being, I have very limited capacity to comprehend the whole to even see the whole. So it's always that was the other thing when I realized, I will never have a perfect understanding. And again, I had to mourn the loss of that, because all I wanted was to be omniscient to have a perfect understanding of reality. But then I had to give that up. And I had to recognize that I was always going to have a flawed understanding. And therefore, I would always have to be open to correction, like, oh, feedback, whatever. Oh, update, update, update, update, update. And sometimes those updates are devastating. Because sometimes, yeah, that's really bad news. You You really don't want that update.

Josh Bolton: 53:51

Yeah, especially like, if you're dealing with coding, and you do an update, and you're like, oh, I want you to update XY and Z. And it just goes, breaks, you know, like, what just happened?

lessie: 53:59

Exactly. So so many times, that's exactly what it is inside of our brain. I love like if, if I, I wish that I had been a coder, because if I had been a coder, I'd probably trip to more of this stuff more much earlier, right? Because so many things are really sort of, you know, they're coding. They're, they're glitches in the code. And that's why I love the matrix. Do you like The Matrix?

Josh Bolton: 54:21

Oh, I'm okay. I'm kind of convinced it's real. But at the same time, I'm like, that would be a monstrosity of a machine to do its power up to but yeah, I love the matrix and the concepts of it.

lessie: 54:32

Yeah, yeah. So that was very helpful for me when I realized like okay, so So for me, when you talk about what you said about your, your, you know, your inner critic for me what happens there is that set about updating that inner critic such that which is really not the inner critic, but updating the thought, the belief that's there that says it should look a certain way, updating that so that it looks more like It will look and then therefore, that part will not keep sounding those alarms because it will understand like, Oh, this is business as usual. There's no harm no foul. We're just on track. Just keep moving forward, just do the next thing, just incorporate just update, just learn just, you know, it's like it's just now there. We don't have to sound the warning. And we don't have to have that defensive maneuvering because there's nothing wrong. Everything is okay. Right. There's nothing threatening.

Josh Bolton: 55:30

And honestly, the that's the biggest one for me. I kind of chuckle like I actually am learning coding. So that's where when you were saying all that in my I know that, but it's the biggest one for me is like, yeah, the moving the mark closer to reality is not necessarily a bad thing. And I always was like, I had a wonderful grandfather. He was very old school. So essentially, like his statues is either you do it or you don't. You don't do it in one shot, don't even bother kind of thing. And it was very old school mindset. And I get it, it was more of the have the grit to commit? Well, he wasn't told how to explain that. So for everything I would do if I and my one buddy, he knows this. He's actually like said to me recently, like you've really improved by the way. Because it would be either I commit all or nothing, or I kill it before they even can tell me what's going on?

lessie: 56:30

Yeah, yeah, well, right away, like if you know, cognitive behavioral therapy. That is, again, that's a fallacy. So another great thing to study if you really want to know these things, and catch these glitches, catch these snares, pitfalls, traps, is like to study logic, then you would have known like, right away that all or nothing thinking is a fallacy. So illogical as like a very desert. Right? But if you don't have that, again, that data has not come into your world, where you know about fallacies you know, about reasoning, you know, about these kinds of things, then you can't know that you've got a fallacy running there. Right? Right. So yes, all or nothing is like, again, it's like, how can I break it down? Like you said, into the increments are, how can I decide how far I'm gonna go with something? Or how can I decide right? To what degree to what level I don't have to go all or nothing with things?

Josh Bolton: 57:28

And that's like I was saying what the cleaning, it was the I clean my room all one shot one day or nothing? And now I've come, especially after reading atomic habits, and Thinking Fast and Slow, great earring for the two. Yep. Yeah. Now I'm kind of like, if I clean my corner thing, and that is a 50% improvement for the day, which is 14%. Above that I needed. So it's more of a bonus. And yeah, it's gotten more realistic. And then that's kind of where I'm sitting here going like, Okay, what this is, what's next? What do I tackle now kind of feel like I've already woke, I'm speaking as if I've already cleaned my room. It's like, I've already done this, what do I focus on now.

lessie: 58:13

But that's perfect. Because again, now you're building on your successes. And you're also looking, if we look really closely at what you're doing, we can also see that you're changing that negativity bias. So rather than focusing on what didn't get done, you're focusing on the percent that did get done. And when you focus on that did get done on the gain rather than the loss. So again, that's another thing that humans tend to do, we tend to focus on losses and not so much on gains. There's been tons of research on this, people would rather avoid a loss than go for a game. So it's again, there's something about the way you talk to yourself the way you think about things and it has a lot to do with that negativity bias. People hate losses more than they love gains.

Josh Bolton: 59:00

Oh yeah. And that's I think a perpetuates and fuels the problem fuel the problem of like, social media showing all these so called multimillionaires, and this night and nine tactful I wouldn't say nine times out of 10 like seven times out of 10 it's usually someone that just rented a Lambo and a cool Airbnb claiming as their own for the day. And I even took because one of my buddies I, oh, I wish I had like $10 million a year and I was like, Do you know how many problems you're going to acquire with that much money a year? He's like, boy, if I have that much money, my problems will go away. I'm like, to be honest, 10 mil is nice. I'm still chump change in the scheme of things kind of thing. I'm like, because he was there was a wordle I think it was like they The New York Times bought it for like $7 million. I don't know Mike, and that was a half baked idea was so Mike 10 mil is cute. But I'm like, what you're really wanting is the, the energy, the fame of everyone liking your post and this and that which I said, Facebook and everyone's figured out that weird loophole of the social recognition in our lizard brain. And because it told him, I will bet you $10 If I lose, I'll go for a Double or Nothing, I'll pay you 20 You lose, you just owe me 10 And he's like, okay, DM that person and ask them what they actually do for a living. And if they It's just Oh, I you know, I rented it, or I Oh, you know, I borrow my Lambo, or my friend, bro, or borrow my Lambo kind of thing. Then I went, if it's they are legit entrepreneur, I will pay you $20. So we did and he was funny. They actually replied within two hours. And he's like, oh, yeah, they fully fessed up that they just rented everything, how do you know and like, that's the quickest way I can think of to make it look imposture as if I'm rich, without actually having to do it. And that's where he sat and he's like, Wait, then I'm like, most people on social media just like you struggling to cope with the reality. I said, there is multiple ways to solve it. The one I like to go for is just get off social media, you won't have this problem anymore.

lessie: 1:01:27

Yeah. Well, and if we think about it, definitely, I'm about to take a class on, on digital illness, right, digital wellness. And I'm really excited to think about that. And there's like a lot of support for a lot of empirical support for Yeah, it's a good idea to ditch your devices, or ditch your social media. But here again, even with your buddy, you could go a different route, which would be well, what are you doing to build financial wealth? So you think maybe you can't get to 10 million, but maybe you can get to a million? Or maybe you can get to 500,000? Or maybe you can get to 250,000? But or 100? Or 100,000? How can you start to engage in those behaviors that would build wealth. So you could take that also that way, rather than just trying to discredit his his dreams? You could also say, so you want that? What are you doing? Right? What are you doing now?

Josh Bolton: 1:02:24

And that's what I did with him afterwards, he said, I presented you bad news. And I know that's bad. It doesn't sit well.

lessie: 1:02:30

Either way, it depends on what your goal is. Your goal can be to help him think critically about what he's seeing on social media and not fall prey to misinformation, which is out there everywhere. It's like what you're saying there was proof that this is misinformation. And I want you to see that it's misinformation. And I want you to see how you can go about finding this information, like detecting it. But then there can be so that was the tact you took and then later you took another tact, which is like, well, how are you building wealth? What can you do to build more financial freedom? So again, it's just again, that though, that's a choice that you had, when you were sitting with him that you know, you made, so it's just interesting, again, not to say anything bad or good with what you did. But just noticing, noticing where you decided to go with your buddy. And then wondering, like, Why did I do that? Was that a good or not? Or maybe you want to keep doing that? Or was that another example of ambushing like you know, I don't know. But the point is, you can be curious about the choices that you're making. And I think that's a good good idea, especially when, when we are trying to change. This is being curious about everything we're doing slowing it down effort, both thinking, thinking once thinking twice, asking a few more questions to try and dig a little deeper, to try and get under, get it get a sense of what's really under that. Right, you know, that from NLP, this is what's really important. And this is what can be really beneficial for people. Oh, I mean, it's essential to change essentially. Because if you just try and muscle it, odds are, you're not going to get anywhere, you've got to get down there and trying to understand what's really the root cause of what's, why you're behaving, why you're, you know, sort of what's the word we said, programmed this way, or organized this way, or juice this way, configured this way? Whatever it is, because until we really basically understand how that machine is working that mechanism, then we can't really begin to dismantle it and build another mechanism. That makes sense.

Josh Bolton: 1:04:31

Oh, 100% and that is where it was the after I presented that and I presented my buddy the the idea, like what are you doing for building wealth? And he said, Oh, I'm trapped. And I'm like, okay, that's very bad phrasing of words. Why are you trapped? In that you feel this way? You say, Oh, I I spend more than I make? I said, Oh, okay. So he actually opened up his bank account. That's where I was laughing because you like it. You're good. They'll just spill your guts because there's a whole side story. I used to work at a military surplus store. All the soldiers would just come and tell me their horror, their horrors and stories. And they're like, Oh, thank you so much. But yeah, that's a side tangent. But the guy showed me his bank account and this and that. And he's like, I'm trying to get my credit up, but it keeps going down. And he's like, you listen to Dave Ramsey, what would I do? And I'm like, Well, I used to until I realized certain aspects of what he says is wrong now. But I told him, I said, What can you give up? What are you willing to sacrifice right now? Or floss? Like you're saying, loss adverse? Is our mind? What are you willing to give up? To help pay this off quicker? And he says, I won't give up anything at all. As an even though you clearly know it's bringing you pain and discomfort. You will not get Mike, you need to tell them what you do realize what you're telling me is there's a bear trap on your arm, where you're saying, but because it's on my arm, it's my friend now. You but you know, it's also killing you, kind of thing. And that's where he I told him I said, if anything getting job that pays just enough more to cover whatever it is. And I said don't even like focus on saving money. Just pay your debt down, pay your smallest first and then pay everything else the minimum so and then like a snowball it up? I usually will. My strategy is a little extreme. I tell everyone pay the most expensive First off, and then slowly bring it down to the others. Reverse avalanche it but not everyone can do my tactics. But and that's where he is he I see him every so often. And he told me he's a hey, thank you like my debt. Now. I'm making up a number. I didn't want to remember it for his personal privacy. But let's say it was 50k. He's like, Oh, I'm now at like, 25k. I'm like, Oh, dude, you're literally halfway there. By that's amazing. Do you realize, like, not many people make it this far?

lessie: 1:07:03

Yeah, yeah. So you really helped him move. You know, again, if we think about the stages of change, you helped him he was kind of already, you kind of helped him move out of pre contemplation. Because at the feeling, he didn't really know that he had a problem again, he was kind of blaming it on external factors, right? And then you kind of moved him into contemplation. But you know, where he was kind of thinking like, what should I or shouldn't I Right? And you got to move in preparation. Ultimately, you got him into action, where he saw what he was going to go and do. And now if he's been doing that for a while, then he might be in maintenance with regard to trying to a new habit for managing his finances so that he can have more financial health and well being Yes, and isolation.

Josh Bolton: 1:07:52

Thank you. And that was one of those. I just because he literally just handed me his phone. I'm like I said, I'm not doing it to be rude. Can I see your your bank app? So I can see if my app has an automation? I can tell it every day on payday pull $20 Put it in this account. And it will always do it until I say stop. Does your app have that? And if we've come to find out we had to go like really far into the settings but he did. And I said okay, we're gonna go Richest Man in Babylon 10% of each paycheck for you. Because we get paid weekly. I'm like, for you, you make what? 400? He's again, like, can you set 40 bucks aside a week. That's it. You can't touch that, unlike like, unless your car's broken, then yeah, it will touch you. But any other thing than that, you can't touch it. And that's this reset. He's like the extra. He jumped it up to 50. So he's like the extra 200 A month has been what's helped me chop it down. And I've gotten more aggressive in paying everything off. And I was like, good. And he still gets to play his video, he still gets to play his video games hangs out with his kid by everything that he needs. And he's like, I didn't realize that I wasted X percent of my paycheck every week. And my no one really notices until it's too late. And you're like, Oh crap, what do I do now? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I'm just curious. How long do we want to keep going?

lessie: 1:09:25

Yeah, I think we're done. Okay. Looking for good for good time. Good way to exit looking for

Josh Bolton: 1:09:30

things to do. Absolutely. honor and pleasure, again,

lessie: 1:09:34

thank you for the opportunity to meet with you and to talk about these change modalities and to really sort of share with your listeners how they can really sort of increase their their understanding of change and how it happens and the kind of roadblocks they can expect and the kind of remedies that they can bring to bear. So thank you for the opportunity. I really appreciate

Josh Bolton: 1:09:55

it. Thank you. Always honor