Today on the show, we have Jeffrey Siegel. We cannot just off-the-cuff we are just chatting, having a good conversation, open-minded thinking. We go into nutrition exercising the coveted body problem the myths in nutrition. How growing your own vegetables might be the cure for your health.
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Hey Josh, how's it going, man? Good new Jeffrey. Good. Me second, let me try to connect my headphones. All right. Okay, How's this? Is the audio okay? Yeah, good. Okay, perfect. So then, just real quick, what did you want to go over cuz your description is like, we're gonna talk about this, this and this, but it's like, it's very topical, what were you thinking of looking into? Be honest, I was more interested in kind of you throwing some questions out there that you think is going to be relevant for your listeners, you know, whatever you feel like is going to connect most with them. I'm happy to talk about all sorts of kind of health and wellness related topics. And so yeah, I didn't actually have anything super specific in mind that I felt like you know, need to cover Yeah. Then the health and wellness like I can work with that. Then let's get right into it. So, today, we have Jeffrey Sigel, a health and wellness expert, and very well versed in different things. We're going to go into different concepts of what to do post COVID will follow the staying at home and doing nothing and new Jim is Jeffrey. Hello, everybody. And thanks, Josh, for for having me on the show. I'm excited to be here and get a chance to chat and connect is awesome. Thank you for coming on. Well, let's actually right get right into it. The the overarching problem is COVID and everyone staying at home. What is the trends you see come from this? Yeah, there's no question that the last year has been incredibly stressful. And I was actually just reading some research published, talking about people's self reported weight gain over the last year, and we're talking 15 2025 pounds. And this is self reported and people just offering up their own data. And there's so many very logical reasons for this, right? One is the lack of movement, you know, being on lockdown working from home, not having as many options to go out to gyms or to just even spend time moving around, obviously, is one thing, so that sort of, you know, decreased physical activity. Right. The other thing that I've talked about a lot is this idea that we shift into different phases of eating, right to mirror different experiences that we're going through in our life. And with COVID, because there was so much fear, there was so much uncertainty, especially early on in it, right, there's so much disruption, that I think a lot of people's eating patterns kind of went totally out the window, we entered into this, anything goes sort of phase, which often means, you know, just sort of like eating weird things that we are times and weird amounts, right, the normal routines and schedules that we had kind of got lost, and, and that often put an extra strain on people's body. And then the third thing is just stress itself, I see stress as being really this hidden factor that almost universally, either causes people to gain weight or prevents people from losing weight. And that's because of the effects that stress has on your body and the way that it impacts your hormones and your nervous system. It really prevents your body from getting into a place where it can efficiently burn fat, right? It really wants to hold on to calories in a different way. And it often can stimulate cravings for sugars and other things in terms of regulating your appetite, and so forth. So the impact of stress, the last physical activity and the disruption to people's eating patterns have been you know, three of the big things that I've seen over this last year as really starting to undermine people's health during the pandemic. Yeah, I can agree recently I'm in LA County so we opened up all the gym so I just went just to go kind of thing. Good thing a day to get guests are gonna hike all the prices because they've been closed for a year. So I'm locked in I'm locked in at whatever price that was before but they were the people like you go to the gym rats, you know that like they are barely 4% body fat and they were should really not be pushing themselves that hard kind of thing. They got and I go back and I see the usual gym rats and I'm like, they got love handles. They got everything and I'm sitting there going no one left this whole pandemic unscathed. Yeah, man, I I feel what you're saying there. You know, it's we've all been affected and in different ways and there's you know, there's no point that some of us have had cushie or times, you know, being able to work from home the privilege of having a space or even even maybe like a little, you know, home gym or some equipment that you can use. And you know, beyond even just the physical piece, I think for so many people that going to a gym or a Fitness Studio had a huge social element to it. And that also got taken away from us. Right, not only do we not get to see our friends, or maybe even just as you said, the gym rats just even like the acknowledgement, that passing smile, like that person you see at the gym, you maybe know their name, maybe you don't. But it's like, no, it's those little interactions that we also got taken away from us, which is really hard. And that that social isolation piece, I think is also something that has really started to undermine people's health and people's happiness. Yeah, I agree. Just a quick caveat on the names, literally the one I was thinking of, and we all know him, but we don't know his name. He wears a classic Slayer shirt from the 80s frickin the old Walkman headphones. He doesn't even have a like a nice pair of sweat proof headphones. We just know him as a slayer guy. I love that, right? Like every gym has their cast of characters. And that's kind of what makes it fun is like you walk in, it's almost like walking into this little soap opera job drama, right? It's like you can kind of know like, who is going to be hanging out where what sort of things they're going to be wearing, you know, what music they're going to be listening to, you know, and, and it's and, and again, there's a certain familiarity, you know, there's certain routine to that, that I think a lot of people find comforting, you know, and then and it's it's sad that we've lost that, you know, the other piece of it that I've seen for so many people is, you know, if you are stuck at home, and if you do have the privilege of working from home, right, it means that means like, every single thing you're doing is at home, right? And the gym for so many people was this sort of was this neutral place that was neither home nor work. And that was really special because it holds it holds a unique position in our lives where we could go somewhere, right, but we weren't at home. So we didn't have all the baggage of home and family or whatever that is there. And we weren't at work. So we didn't have all the baggage and stress of work and co workers and bosses race or like we're in this third place, but we still knew people, right? We started like a purpose. And, and I think that's been really difficult too. And so it's been interesting to see the ways in which gym culture has sort of shifted and unraveled and during COVID and as people have found ways to try to like, you know, make it up on their own. And it's it's been hard. It really has been like I have to admit, I work night shift currently. And that in and of itself makes it hard for me to lose a body body fat that I want. Because essentially, I'm resting I'm not actually sleeping. So my body always thinks I'm going to stay to fight or flight. But the one thing I noticed in general was like you're saying the overarching trend of the social interactions is the the new peloton like movement where it's like the the work from home work, but also like by the online subscription for DDP yoga kind of thing. Yeah, there's been so much of this, you know, and I like to say that if you were if you had the foresight and you were lucky to invest in peloton a year ago, right? Like you probably know pretty well, right? peloton, mirror total and then all of these online subscription services like obey and these other platforms have really come to the forefront and, and I think there's there's a lot of good that has come from that. I think a lot of people have realized that, hey, I don't need to be dependent upon a gym, I can move my body, I can exercise, I can get a really good workout in my own home. So I think there's a certain degree of freedom. I kind of like autonomy about that which I very much support. Like I want to teach people that like you know, gyms are great, I freakin love them. But also like you don't need them. Right? You can learn how to move your body and even do resistance training right without having a full gym. But as you said, there's this bit of this cultural element, right? Like you get on a zoom call and you see somebody like peloton, right? chillin in the back with their, like sweat rag on top of it, right? Or people are posting on their Instagram, right? their, their, their scores or something. So it's become a bit of the status symbol a bit of this badge of honor. And that's just an interesting social phenomenon. Yeah, this is something I think we could talk about more and the ways in which fitness has sort of become, you know, commoditized in sometimes sort of unhealthy ways. And you know, Instagram fit celebrities and all the images that get blasted to us all the time can really be a lot in the social media aspect in general, like, again, the super stressful. I've actually it's funny, I'm trying to do social stuff, but I don't like social media, so I don't use it. I also realize I'm not going to grow that quickly without using it. But it's one of those loses the diet I saw. That's kind of when I gave up. It's like how to do keto without keto and still get the same results. And I'm like No, you just eat meat and eat cruciferous vegetables and you'll frickin lose body fat, whether you like it or not. It's like the broccoli chicken diet. Yeah, and, you know, like two things on that one is the sort of necessary evil you want to so call it of like social. And I feel the same way that you know, I, it's not my favorite place to spend time I don't love, you know, putting hours into, you know, social media stuff. But in this day and age, you know, if you're trying to grow a podcast if you're trying to run a business online, and you know, it's like it is something that is just as important, because that's what people are paying attention people's eyes are. So it's a bit of this catch of trying to figure out like, yeah, how do you navigate this thing? recognizing that it's not something you enjoy? Nor is it necessarily always leading to happiness? Like the question I asked myself, whenever I put something out there, I'm like, is this helping move somebody to a place of being healthier, happier or no? Right? If the answer is no, it's like, why am I putting it out there? Just for the likes, for the likes, exactly. For the likes for the clicks for the smile. So the reactions for the comments for the subscribes. You know, and that's the world we live in. And to me, that makes me it's like, it's a little bit sad that that's that's the current state of state of affairs. Right. And there's so much confusion, as you said, around diets like oh, my god, there's so many freakin diets and every time there's a new diet, and there's another variation of that diet. And it's like, we've entered this this world. I like to call it a dietary dogma. And I think it's, it's not only is it is it confusing, but it's often misleading. And then after, you know, trying a few different ones, like all the natural responses, just to throw your hands up and be like, EFF it, like, you know, I'm done with all this. Yeah, no, I agree. And that's where like, for me, when I was researching diets, I typed it. This is back in like 2017. I found this guy named Vinnie, torta rich, he teaches how to cut all grains and sugars out because of the insulin spike and all that. And essentially, like he said, later on, he's like, Oh, I didn't realize it. But I was teaching keto, but a very specific keto. And he's like, I guess there's this whole pyramid rule. I don't know. Easily, you know, guys, that you kids and your internet kind of thing. But it was just one of those. I did it for like, two months, and I literally dropped like, it was averaging about a pound a day. Wow. And it was just, yeah, it was rapid weight loss. Yeah. How did how did you feel like how did how did that? How did that feel for you? during that time? A good. I actually had more energy, more clarity. But I guess I wasn't because it was predominantly fat. I guess it wasn't eating enough calories in general to sustain. So like, right at the two month mark, I'm like, Oh, my God, I feel like crap, kind of thing. And so then what happened after those two months, like, what did you do? I started eating more, but it was one of those I had to like, tell myself, I need to eat like, a little more in general. So I introduced grains and just came right back up. Yeah, and this, you know, Josh, like, your story is so common, like, I hear this all the time, where people, you know, try a new diet. And, and it works. Like in the beginning, it works. And I have to say, it's like, if you have a diet, and you stick with it consistently, it will work for about eight weeks, and then it will stop working. Right? And then you need to change something, right? Because guess what, your body has changed, right? So then I think the problem one, but one of the problems that we get into is thinking of diet as this sort of unitary static thing. Right. But the reality is that our bodies are always changing. And so our diet always needs to be changing, too. And what happens is, like, so many of us get stuck in eating a certain way. Because maybe it worked for us, maybe what for us, like 10 years ago, but guess what, like, our body is very different. It's not working for us right now. Right? We need to update our dietary paradigms and the way we do things, and we need to constantly be fine tuning it. And that takes a lot of work. It's really hard, you know, to do that on your own. Yeah, and I agree, there's one thing actually one of my co workers, they're trying to lose weight. And because I was listening to the diet guy, they're like, what do you think I'm like, honestly, I said, if we think take this super primitive, not like the so many macros, so many this. Our ancestors were nomads. They didn't have pizza on the prairie kind of thing. It's like, what would they find? And it's like, you also have to remember food was scarce. So maybe they went indirectly two days without food. That's why we fast kind of thing. Yeah, that's that's such a great point. And I like to bring that up. When talking about this, like putting it in the evolutionary context is vital. Because as you're saying, for most of human history, right, food was scarce, right? We didn't have choice in food like we have now. The situation we're in now is like evolutionarily totally crazy. It's insane is unprecedented the fact that we can whip out our phones and be like, Hey, what do I want to eat? Thai Korean burgers pizza, versus, you know, for most of the ways in which our bodies have evolved to survive, the question was simply is there food? Yes or no. And if there was food, you would eat it. Right? If there was a lot of food, you would eat more, because you weren't sure when the next meal was gonna come. Or maybe you would save a little bit because you weren't sure when the next meal was gonna come. So you wanted to hold on to it, right. But we were sort of naturally regulate. And as you said, maybe we'd go a few days, without having a lot to eat, there was natural periods of sort of fasting and feasting, and our bodies were able to handle that pretty well. Right? But now the question has changed from is their food? Yes, no, to what food? And how much? And that adds in so much complexity. Now we're forced to decide, hey, what do I want to eat? Or do I feel like what's healthy? What did I just eat before? What am I gonna eat again, in three hours, right? It is a much more complicated decision. And I think a lot of us, we just, you know, we're so tired, we're already so fatigued, and our body's already so drained, that we just don't have often the like, the mental fortitude to make those decisions, at least very well. And that's where a lot of, you know, eating healthy falls apart, just because those decisions that we have to make every single day, we have to make so many food decisions become so complicated. And so one of the reasons I think diets tend to work, especially sort of like paleo, or keto diets, initially, is because they simplify that decision making process for us, right, when you get a diet that just says you eat this and you don't eat that. And now all of a sudden, all that brainpower that we needed to use to figure out what I want to eat and how much and what I'm going to eat later. And next, right gets boiled down to like, Okay, I'm gonna eat this. And that simplicity, I think it's something that we're all sort of craving and desiring because we live in a world that's so complex, and so environmentally mismatched from the place where our bodies came from. And another thing I told everyone, I said, one of this, this is funny, because I'm a bigger guy. But I said, Our ancestors back in the day, they would literally their job wasn't to hold a little cart and put stuff on the counter it was to run and chase elk kill it. And that could take up to eight hours and a shit ton of calories to get done. But then they had to prep it, which was an hour, like six hours. So Mike, it's one of those. It was a very labor intensive, though. That's why we got such a huge dopamine hit when we get food. Because primitively it was the hardest thing that we could do. Yeah, I love I love that. I love that explanation. I love to bring again, right, the sort of the dopamine, that reward response they had like food is inherently rewarding. And as you're saying, back in the day, it was that much more. So because you had to put in a ton of effort, right to get that food. It didn't just show up delivered to you 20 minutes after you push a button. And so yeah, it makes sense why food is rewarding. And it also then makes sense why, you know, some of these sort of evolutionary drives that we have, right towards that for using food as a reward now in the modern context that we're living in, are actually working against us. Right and lead to things like food sort of dependency and addiction, or emotional eating or just using food as a coping mechanism. Because it does feel good. And a lot of times we don't feel very good the rest of our day. Yeah, with a nine to five job everyone's still slowly dying. It's like I was eat little thing Oreos, and then one Oreo equals like the whole damn tray. Yes, this is this is so true. It's something and I, you know, I think this experience, pretty much everybody has had those times where have kind of mindlessly munching again, one one bite leads to many bites, because we use food, as I like to say, as a symbolic substitute for something else. Right? In the case of the Oreos, you know, maybe what you're really hungry for is just this sense of relaxation, the sense of letting go of stress, the sense of your body, just finally settling down and feeling comfortable. But what you're using the food for is a tool, right is the way to kind of get that feeling. But no number of Oreos can ultimately satisfy that for you. Right? And oh, and after you eat the whole box, guess what? It actually ends up making things worse, right? Because you know, your belly doesn't feel great. And your digestion is all messed up and and you beat yourself up over it right? And so that's a whole extra layer of stress that we put on ourselves. It really is and working where I do I work for a grocery store. So it's one of those, one of the veggie guys because he was getting some organic like apples out. And I'm like, oh, like the apples look really good today. So he jokingly picks up the apple and scrapes it and white stuff come off. And I'm like, What the hell is that shit. He's like it's wax. It's a wax. You think? These apples are actually good. He's like, this whole store. It's all genetically modified. It's super fake. I love the the like that experience, right? The the wax on the apple, right? And I think the word that stands out for me is fake. Right? The food that we get. And I'm gonna say this from this sort of like, right like the American centric, right? You walk into like, I'm not gonna pick on particular supermarket brands. And I don't know, I don't know who you work for, but like, don't say their name. I'm good. Okay, yeah, we walk into a supermarket, right? And it's like you said, it's like you pick up this apple, you're like, Oh, this apple looks looks great. Right? And I'm not saying that the apple isn't great. But as you're like, you know, yes, the app was coated in food grade wax, guess what might also be on that wax, right? Different types of pesticides, different types of herbicides, all sorts of chemicals that they might spray on the tree. And as you said, that Apple isn't just an apple that just sort of haphazardly grew in somebody's backyard that Apple has been cultivated deliberately, right through science and engineering to be this most sort of like, perfect Apple that we can possibly imagine. Right. But sometimes what we do is that we make it as big and as colorful as we can, but we actually lose some of the vitamins and nutrients in it. Right? It's just like, the similar things happen with livestock is like we pump it full of hormones, so it grows nice and fat and big, so we can get more meat from it. But the actual meat is less nutritious, right, than a smaller, you know, animal that maybe was living off of the land differently. And so yeah, we have modified our environment and our whole food chain, our whole food system has become very, very fake, and often very unhealthy. And that's, again, another sort of piece of this, this health and wellness puzzle. It is in like the biggest one I've noticed. I used to have chickens. So we would get the fresh eggs every day. That's awesome. And they grew full size. And it was one of those I just one of them, like jumping on my knee. So I looked at him like, you know, it's weird to say, but your breasts are way smaller than the ones at the store kind of thing. And I'm like, Huh, so I did some research. Apparently they pump them full saline water. Yeah. Yeah, go. I mean, again, fake food. You know, and fake might be a little bit of a stretch. I do think there are certainly fake foods out there, right? Like you get some sort of, you know, I can't believe it's not butter. Right? What, you know, what, which is this the craziest product ever? And let me tell you why so crazy is that, like, you look on the back and you read the nutrition label. And guess what it says zero calories. You're like, oh, wow, this this thing that kind of tastes like butter is zero calories. Guess what, I'm just gonna use it and dump it over everything. Right. And then you go and you read the ingredients, right? The ingredients are water, buttermilk, soybean oil, like that thing is actually probably contains hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of calories. But there's a loophole. Because according to the FDA, right serving sizes can be measured in such a way that anything less than a half a gram can be rounded down to zero. So the serving size and I can't believe it's not butter is like three pumps, which is like one gram. And maybe that has a half a gram of fat in it. But they can get away with saying it has zero grams of fat in it, which means it has zero calories, just because we're talking about three pumps of the little spray. And so it's like, you know, it's like when you start looking deeper into the products and then labeling. It's so easy to see like, Oh my god, like the food that we're eating isn't what we think it is? No, not at all. So actually, I want to touch on something the impossible burger, what's your take on it? So I've tried impossible burgers and beyond me and and I know there's a few other brands. And you know, I'm kind of I'm kind of torn on this. On one hand, I think it's wonderful that there are like meat alternative foods out there. I do think I'm not against eating meat. I personally eat meat. I think actually eating meat from small scale farms that do regenerative agriculture is actually really wonderful is a really healthy thing for the environment for the animals. And also I think it can be for your body, but I recognize not everybody wants to eat meat and that that's also okay. So having alternatives assign, you know, again, when we start getting into the fake foods, like, you know, it always sort of weirded me out. You know, I've had friends who have been vegetarians for years long before there was an impossible burger right there was there was Satan, which is you know, kind of a soy based meat substitute and I would go to my friend's house and he would have like a steak tan turkey or steak tanned chicken fingers or I'm from Philly, they'd have like a steak and cheese steak and it was always weird to me. I'm like, why do you want to like mimic this thing? Like, you know, why do you want eat this plant thing to taste like chicken and if you're a vegetarian and you don't like chicken like, right, you know, it's like, right there, there always seem to be a little bit of this disconnect. They're like, why are you trying to make this thing tastes like something that it's not? Exactly right. So that, to me is a sign of something being off, right. So we're using our technology in a way, right to to kind of shape shift. And and whenever we do that, I think we get further away from what our bodies are used to doing. And knowing as you said, our bodies grew up in the context of like, we ate basic Whole Foods from the earth from the ground in their original shape and the original form, right, and now we've gotten to this place where there's so much processing, right, there's so much human intervention, that impossible burger, even if it's made from wholesome, you know, plants, right in a way that doesn't necessarily impact the environment as much or lead to animal suffering, it's still been processed a ton to get to this thing that looks like a beef patty that tastes kind of like a burger, right? And so you have to question like, with all those steps in between really healthy, right? And then you start looking at the macros and the other stuff, and you ask, Well, you know, macronutrient Li, like, it's probably similar amount of calories and might even be similar amounts of fat, because I know a lot of them use like coconut oil, and that has a lot of saturated fat. And you're like, Well, you know, that's impossible, guys just as much saturated fat as the regular burger. And it's like, so why am I eating one and not the other? I think the the matter is just like, just looking a little bit deeper into it. I think whenever you stop at the surface level and just say, oh, impossible burger, that's a plant based burger, that's automatically better. Right? That's a sign of being a little bit lazy. I think we all need to go that extra step and be more critical consumers. I agree. And especially it's a recent phenomenon when I was looking up all this stuff, but the soy how it greatly affects both male and female. And the more it's like this, one vegan guy knew he was using impossible burger. And it was just like, through a timeline, we watched him kind of thing on YouTube. And suddenly he had sharp like, chest like chiseled everything that suddenly he started getting Mitch tits. And he's like, I don't understand. I'm working out I mean and clean. And I said to you said one was like, dude, you're eating a shit ton of soy, your body's literally turning you into a woman now. Yeah, yeah, I mean, soy can certainly have those effects on those body. And so like that, you know, when you think about the impossible burger or any food like that, it's important to examine it and all of these lenses, right? So you start like, you know, ethically, okay? Like, if you're if you're against animal cruelty, or killing animals or eating animals, then I understand that, yes, eating some plant based item is probably going to be the way to go. Right? But then you go to the next layer, and you say, okay, environmentally, what's the difference between these two things? What's the environmental impact, right, of a hamburger versus impossible burger? And the answer is, it depends. It depends on whether that burger is coming from a conventional like feedlot, right, which is probably not is not very good for the environment at all, or whether as we said, it's coming from a smaller farm, you know, grass fed cows doing regenerative agriculture? And I've read to that, you know, and you ask, Where is the plants coming from? Where is it coming from monocropping of soy that's also sprayed with a lot of different chemicals, because guess what, that can also be bad for the environment that can also be very water intensive types of agriculture and farming, right? So it's like the environmental trade off isn't always so clear, as we think it is. Right? And then we go to the next level, as we talked about of like macronutrients and you look at Okay, you know, what are the compounds in it? When you look at fats and proteins, when you look at vitamins and minerals? How do these two things stack up? Right? And then you go to the next level of flavor, well, like, How does it taste like, you know, you don't want to eat something that you don't like, That tastes crappy, right? Even if it's maybe marginally healthier for you, right? You know, that has to come into play. And then and then the piece of costs, right? I've, you know, a lot of the impossible burgers, meat stuff, like they're way more expensive than then at least the conventionally grown beef, right. And so that's going to come into play too, because now all of a sudden, right, it becomes a privilege and becomes a privilege of those who can afford it right to eat these plant based substitutes. And now we've got this whole issue of inequity and economic disparity that comes into play. So like, complexity, complexity, complexity, it really is. And so one thing like I was during the heat of lockdown or right before it last year, everyone was talking about dieting and veganism and how animal farming is cruelty and all that shit. And essentially, I looked up at one of my co workers, he was thinking to going vegan, I said, let's put it this way. Are you comfortable killing 1000s of creatures for your little plant and burger. He's like 1000s don't die. I'm like, pesticides. Complete genocide is all the insects that's 1000s that I know of right there. Then they set traps so they kill the fox so the fox can't steal the soy. So that's 1000s of deaths compared to one death of a cow. My Think about it, it's like, if anything, the skull prop is more dangerous because like you're saying pesticides this the the water labor a cow? Well, it's a Cali like, my aunt has a property in Idaho, they're going to start a whole cow farm, they're gonna get like 50 of them, they got 700 plus acres to run the cows. So it's like they have, there's no other than winter, there's no excuse, they can run the cows out there. Because winter that truly is snowing, they gotta buy alfalfa for them. Yeah. And you raise a really good point and of the ways in which diets are such a big thing. For our world in our culture right now, I think, actually is a tale of two different there's two sides of this one is the health side of like, I'm going to be a vegan or I'm going to go paleo because I think it's healthier for my body. That's one perspective. But I think the other thing is a lot of diets become identity labels, right? It's like, we all know, that gluten free guy, or that paleo guy, or that vegan guy or gal, right? That's like, right, that's, like, doesn't shut up about it. Right? Like, they're, they're always, they're always chatting, and, you know, they're trying to like push their beliefs, they know, they become like, ev angelical. And I use that word specifically, because I think this is actually a symptom of, you know, the ways in which religion has, has really sort of, you know, faded to the background, from where it used to be in our culture as as it's become more secular and more scientific and younger generations are maybe a little less involved in, in religion, like I think the new religion is these religions have different dietary dogmas in the same way that somebody says like, I'm a Protestant or a Baptist or a Catholic people say I'm a vegan, I'm paleo and gluten free, right, just like because there's a sense of belonging, there's a sense of identity, there's a sense of, I'm doing this for these sort of righteous reasons that are bigger than myself. And so I see it as psychologically, it's actually fulfilling the similar sort of mechanism. And I think that's just, it's just a fascinating lens to look at this through. It is an on top of just going to touch a little on it, and we can get back to the health the whole event, the religion aspect, rejecting, oh, former to new at times, I've noticed this with kancil culture online, it seems like a religion now it's not just like we're fighting for the little guy hits. It's a full on like, the shame, shame, you kind of thing. Yeah, it's interesting, you know, you bring up canceled culture, there's a lot of ways and that the internet, right has has enabled the spread of these kind of sub cultural identities very quickly, right? where something can kind of right, it can disseminate this information can spread so quickly, right through through the whole country, the whole nation, the whole world. And people can pick up on it and join into it. And you see these movements rise. And the thing is, they rise really quickly, but then they also fall really quickly. And then people are on to the next thing because our attention is so fickle, and we're so distracted. Right? And we're always just waiting for that next thing and that next thing, and again, it just is another another sort of classic, is you can call it observation, you could call it a symptom of the world that we're living in. Yeah, I agree. It's a very interesting thing. Just a side note, for the flat earthers. I thought that she had died back in like the 80s and 90s. Like no one actually did that. But apparently they're back. I thought that she had died back in like in, you know, the 1500s when people were sailing around the world and realize that, Oh, I got back to where I started. But you know what, it's some beliefs Die Hard. They do. And, and this is, it's interesting to think about the ways in which ideas come and go, right, and scientific paradigms and other things. Often, you know, so many of the most important scientific, you know, revelations, just just the idea that the Earth revolves around the Sun, as opposed to the sun revolving around the Earth, right? That was this brand new idea. And everybody thought it was crazy, right? It was like Copernicus was deemed a heretic. Until more and more evidence, finally, people start to kind of begrudgingly accept it. And then after another generation or two, now it's considered self evident. And so I think this is sort of the the ways in which ideas go through this lifecycle of often being rejected and slowly incorporate into the mainstream, and everybody brushes it off and takes it for granted. But that doesn't mean that the other idea is totally dead. It's lingering somewhere out there in the periphery, that annoying uncle in the corner. You know, and not to shift totally directions. But you know, that brings up a whole nother conversation right about about misinformation and fake news and the ways in which, you know, we're surrounded by a lot of ideas, and a lot of facts that aren't really grounded in reality. And again, because of the internet world like these things can live and survive and be transmitted really quickly, and that enables them to stick around. It really does. And this is tying in earlier with the Instagram saying we're keto, but not keto. It's like how do you how do you do that kind of thing? Yeah, you know, and it's like everybody puts their own spin on it. And everybody wants to have the new the new version, because that's easier to sell. Yeah, yeah. So going back to the fake food in general. So I've recently gotten a bug for growing vegetables, because I just I'm more observant the most on watching, like prices tick up. 10 cents here. 10 cents there kind of thing. It's small. No one's gonna notice it at first. So Mike, I bet you in a year, it's gonna be a frickin fortune to buy just a little carrot. But if I start now, I could have a whole crop of carrots kind of thing. So I'm trying that out. But I've also noticed when I grow my food, so much more tastier? Yes, yes, I kind of had a feeling you're going to say that. I'm a huge proponent of growing your own food, and a huge proponent of cooking your own food. And I'll say, hey, start with the cooking because I think for a lot of people, that's the hardest part. You're not even, you know, you're not there yet. And that's okay. You know, I get that that's a skill that maybe you've never really been taught, maybe you didn't have much exposure to, you know, you don't learn it. So it's not your fault. But I do think it's like, one of the best things that you can do for your health is to learn how to cook. Yes, that's step number one. And so, you know, I'm not saying don't eat out, I freakin love eating out, you know, my wife and I are total foodies. But that's, that's, uh, you know, that's a privilege. It's something we look forward to. It's a special occasion, you know, and most of the meals during the week are meals that we cook on our own. You know, I live in the city, I don't have a huge backyard, but I still grow vegetables in little containers. Because as you said, it's fun. I like it. I like the gardening aspect. I like growing my own food. When I do grow it, it takes a hell of a lot better. There's something so satisfying about eating a tomato or a pepper in a salad and recognizing like, Hey, I grew this thing. I watered it, I took care of it. Now I'm chopping it up. And I'm putting it in. Right. And as you said, it goes back to like, it makes the food rewarding. But it's rewarding. Now in this much deeper way. There's a much deeper fulfillment about that meal than me, you know, hitting the button on Uber Eats and getting a salad delivered by right I have no idea who made that salad. I have no idea who made it. I have no idea where the ingredients came from. I have no idea who grew those ingredients. Right? It's like so it's like, Unknown, Unknown unknown. And I'm putting this thing into my body. That unknown is now becoming right. My nourishment is becoming the building blocks for myself. And I think like that's, it's a weird, it's a weird thought. To think that's like, hey, like, I'm gonna take something that I know almost nothing about and put it in my body. Like, we're giving up a lot of of our power when you do that. Yes. So one thing I always remember this, but I mean, I had it last night is McDonald's fries, you know, they're done. I don't. So one of my buddies, actually, his restaurant closed because of COVID. He couldn't sustain. But he was telling me he was buying a plot in a potato farm in California. And he saw this big plot over to the right. And he asked like, hey, why can't I get that one? It looks like it's cheaper. And you're like, Oh, that's McDonald's. And he's like, Okay, he's like, so what's the difference? Like, oh, we literally bomb that thing with so much pesticides and controlling agents, that it's not inhabitable for two weeks for humans. And he's like, well, well, if a human can't go in for two weeks, why should a pipe grow in there, then? He's literally grows to the exact size for the machine. No more, no less. And I'm like, after he said, I was eating some fries. And I'm like, well, this chemical hodgepodge through the side. Yeah. And when you begin to know this, right, when you begin to educate yourself a little bit, you can see these things and you're like, Oh, yeah, like, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Right. And, you know, there was that movie years ago, right? What is it supersize me? Yeah, you know, I mean, there's a lot of good documentaries out there that that tried to shed some light on the ways in which our modern agricultural practices have gone astray. And I just want to caveat that real quick for a second because, you know, again, because I appreciate you, Josh, like taking this evolutionary lens that we're talking about, like for most of human history, we hunted and gathered we didn't have a lot of food. So I do think there is something to be said that like at this point in time, like we can grow enough food to feed the billions of people on this planet like it's the ways in which agriculture right has has enabled us to productively grow food is amazing. It has prevented a lot of malnourishment. I know there still are obviously millions people who are malnourished but like it has helped uplifted a lot of humans out of poverty just because we have farming practices that are useful and growing food. So I don't want to discount that. I think That's important to acknowledge that that has been a benefit to humanity. However, the dark side of that, right, as you're saying is that sometimes it becomes it becomes too much too extreme. And like the use of chemicals and the ways in which we're farming or too intensive, that we're actually just degrading the earth that we depend upon. Yes, and it's one of those also, as things go on, especially with COVID. In the, the you're touching, we make enough food to technically feed everyone. But it's the distribution and we saw that with the initial lockdowns. We definitely saw it in my grocery store. It's like, the whole store was empty. And we're just like, Where's the wood? Literally, there's hundreds of millions of pounds of crops right now. Where is it kind of thing? Yeah, yes. It's so fascinating that you had that firsthand experience in the grocery store. Right? During, you know, rewind a year ago, and and seeing all that happen, right? And I remember going to, to my, to my supermarket, and yeah, the shelves being empty. And I'm like, man, I never I never saw that, right. And those never used to seeing that maybe a little bit, you know, I live up in New England. So like, whenever we get a big Blizzard coming, you know, like, everybody was stocked up on all those, like pantry staples, but like, not to the extent that we had, right where it's like you couldn't, there were certain things like you couldn't get for a little while. And that's, um, you know, it's, it's interesting, because that sort of limitation. And scarcity is something that most of us who grew up, you know, in the last, you know, 30 4050 years in the US, like, aren't really used to, because our food system has become so globalized, and our food chains and delivery systems are so robust that like, you know, we're used to having pretty much all the food all the time. Whereas in the past, it's like, you know, we would get things seasonally and some things like if you couldn't get is because nobody was growing it nearby. Right? Or, you know, and we've lost, we've lost touch with that seasonality of our food as well, because we ship things in from from Canada and from Mexico, and from Chile and from China. And so it doesn't really matter. It's like you can always get fresh blueberries, right? But what's the cost to that? Right? What's the you know, because, hey, hey, how are they growing? In China? You have absolutely no idea what sort of chemical things are right? And then be how much energy fossil fuels human labor does it take to get that tiny little pint of blueberries? Right from China to your supermarket? Tons? No, they have to do it by ship. They can't do it by plane. Yeah. So you put on the ship, right. And then from the ship, it has to get offloaded onto a truck. And then from the truck, it gets driven to the market. And now now you know what happens there, then you got to pick it up, and you got to put it on the shelf. Right? So it's like, let me You know, there's a practice I like to do before I eat, and it's just taking a moment where I take a couple of deep breaths. And I just mentally kind of acknowledge, right, like, all of the steps that it took to get this food from where it was grown in the earth to my plate, right? And I'm just imagining, like, you know, the farmers that grew it, right, the water The earth is sunshine, right? The person as you said that picked it or the machine that picked it, right that the ships and the trucks that went on the person in the supermarket that put on the shelf, the other person that scan the item to put it in my bag, right? It's like, it's passed through so many hands, and so many people. So I just tried to take a moment to acknowledge that and it just it just helps me be a little bit more respectful of again, the food where it comes from and what I'm putting in my body. Yes, I agree. And like the biggest one I've noticed and it's a huge cartel now with the avocado industry. I my grandfather used to have a huge avocado tree like we had the kind of crowds were like, We were just handing five gallon buckets to people like we can't eat this all I take it kind of thing. But we only had that window between September and October. That was it. Then all the avocados were gone. We just had to figure out ways to save it kind of thing. And that's when I jokingly told my grandfather my will if you get avocados only between September and October, how are they getting avocados on the shelves all year round kind of thing. And he's he said, essentially, he's like in Mexico, it's perfect. They always produce kind of thing. He's like, wasn't we like it or not? Right, right. You know, and so look, I'm not I'm not against free trade, right? Because you can make the argument that, hey, the farmers in Mexico, right, have this product and they can grow all the time. And there are consumers in the US that want that product. So yeah, let's let's set it up. So we can ship them across, right? Like, you know, so it makes it makes economic sense, you know, in one way, but when you look at it again, from just the health lens, and more so I think the issue is like the dependency, right? Because now when we've gotten used to is like having a perfectly ripe avocado 20 473 65 the minute that we don't have that avocado like we feel pissed off or frustrated, right? Because it's like, oh, look at me like I'm so entitled that I I want my avocado you know, I don't know if you've ever had to deal with somebody in the supermarket right like freaking out. I was my avocados. Yes, actually, it's surprising 6am on right when we open this, everyone in their mother comes in and just start screaming. It's like coffee yet Did you think this through? You know, and I love the fact that you work in supermarkets, because I really think that, you know, our nation's health, if they're, and I joked about this before, I'm like, you know, and I'm Look, I'm not a public health expert, although this is something that I care deeply about. But I'm like, you know, if you really want to start to make a difference in our nation's health, you should have a health coach and a nutrition counselor and a psychologist at the front of every grocery store, so that when that person walks in, you have these three people walking with you, to counsel you on, Hey, why are you choosing that thing? Why not that thing? What are you going to make for dinner? Why are you cooking? Like, you know, it's like, because like, there's so much of our health begins, or ends with the items that we pick up in the supermarket? It really does. And actually, have you followed Japan in general for their food? I've actually spent some time in Japan just visiting as a tourist, but not specifically. So tell me tell me more about what you're thinking of. So what it is, is, there was a YouTuber did a 30 minute comparison, it was actually worth the 30 minutes. I don't even remember the video. Probably YouTube will never give it back to me. But it was comparing how Japan made one simple distinction different from us. They said, all food on the counter, if claimed to be real, must be real. That's it? And what sort of impact should that have? Well, it's like you were there. When you either you probably lost the salt to three pounds, even though you're eating a shit ton of rice, and like veggies was the that's the only distinction. If it's you say it's real, a real like asparagus. It has to be real. Exactly the GMO stuff. Gotcha. So this was like a distinction on like, genetically modified versus non. Right, pretty much. And they also encouraged local farmers instead of global farmers. Yeah. You know, I mean, look, I'm not I'm not out here to like, demonize genetically modified food, I think there are certain things that are potentially beneficial, again, from from genetic modification. I do think eating local food, right, as we talked about local seasonal food is just there's no question it's going to be better for our biology, because our bodies evolved in a certain way to eat, what we could gather, right? Well, we could walk or run or pickup, right, which means Guess what? It's going to be local, and it's going to be seasonal. You know, and I have a, you know, I've been fortunate I've gotten to do a lot of travel, I spent many years actually living abroad in Asia. And you know, what you're saying about the food in other countries, I think is true, like the US is this really unique place? Because it is like no other country in terms of the variety of foods that we have to offer. The number of different types of cuisines, the number of different types of restaurants is really unprecedented. I don't think there's any other country that can rival the us with that, right. But the flip side of that, again, the dark side is the amount of fake highly processed kind of junk, right? food that we have is insane. Right? The food that right? And so it's like, it's sort of really split. It's like, yeah, you can go to a nice high end restaurant, you can get really good, high quality ingredients in food. But the majority of our food world that we live in here in the states is a whole bunch of this other stuff. And this other stuff isn't so good for our bodies. It's not, and it's really sad, like super, something super simple. So the plants behind me, I'm growing him in water. And it's a type of Do you know what aquaponics is? So it's a type of aquaponics. And it's just as I'm watching, it's literally in two days has doubled in size. Just on the tip. Love it. And I'm loving it. And it's one of those Mike, it's not water intensive. It's whatever I have. Yes. Perfect. I have lots of plants over here. Yeah, I'm seeing all the stuff around you. Yeah, we have a ton of plants in our home, you know, we know which goes back to another another consideration. We're talking about health and wellness, right? I read something that like, you know, most Americans spend 90% of their waking hours indoors. Now obviously, this varies a lot depending on right climate that you live in, of course, you know, but like nine right, I mean, like 90% of the time is like you are inside this little climate controlled, dry walled box. And what does that mean? That means you are separated from nature. You're separated from plants and trees. You're separated from sun Light, which is so important for vitamin D and for other things, for regulating your circadian rhythms, right, and you're exposed to indoor air pollution, which sometimes can even be worse than outdoor air pollution. And so it just the ways in which again, we've cut ourselves off from the earth and from the environment also slowly begins to degrade our health. And so like, you know, it goes back to the growing your own food, even just having a, you know, a couple of houseplants, it's something that can boost your mood and really begin to just like reconnect you to to nature. Absolutely. I agree with that. Yeah. Especially in definitely in the heat of lockdown this before I started this whole tank thing. I just noticed, like, I would go in, like the I work night shift. So I try to avoid the sun like it's the plague, because it wakes me up. But I would just step out just to get a breath there. And I'm like, wow, it's like, a whole chest way just came off me like or so I would walk around the backyard, get some air, go back in an hour later go back outside, and it's like, wow, that chest weights back kind of thing. That's where I was like, maybe it's the actual house kind of thing with the airflow. And that's where I just looked at all the different stuff. Yeah, that's a really interesting observation. And I like what you're saying like that chest way, I think when we start to notice our bodies pay attention a little bit more. Right, one of the easiest signals that we can pick up on is that sort of that feeling of heaviness versus that feeling of lightness. And that can tell us so much just that distinction, right? When something makes us feel heavy, right? It's weighing us down, kind of literally and metaphorically like, it's usually a sign that something is wrong, something is off something is maybe unhealthy, dysfunctional, it's not working. For us, it's sort of working against us, versus when when we when something makes us feel lighter, that's usually a sign that that thing is probably going to be wholesome and nourishing, right. And that thing can be a food as you said, it could be just stepping outside and getting a breath of fresh air. Sometimes it's a conversation, you know, you have a conversation with somebody, like you should pause at the end of that conversation. Ask yourself, do I feel heavier? Or do I feel lighter? But if you felt heavier, maybe it's because there was a lot of difficult stressful emotional stuff going on? Like That was a hard conversation, right? If you feel lighter, this because like there was that it was fun. It was playful, right? It was that resonance, you could feel each other. And it leaves you with this feeling of lightness. And I think so much of us. All we're really desiring when it comes to our health is that feeling of lightness, that Lightness of Being? It's that feeling of like being alive and being energized and being happy to be here? Yes, no, I agree. Like one of my co workers. It's every day I can tell if he's there because everyone's dragged down kind of thing. And that's where I jokingly tell him like, cuz he always complains, you say, oh, life sucks. I need a beer. This Nan's like, Dude, are you just trying to piss us all off and drain our souls? So you feel better? You know, Misery likes company, Ghana thing? Never since I pointed that out. And he's like, Oh, you guys are like, sad, sad. He were like, yes. He's like, Oh, it's never been my intent. I want you guys happy not me. Then stop talking about your shit. It reminds me of a quote. And I don't remember it precisely. But it's something along the lines that are greatest human addiction is constantly talking about our stress and our problems. Right. And I think for some people, as you're pointing out this guy, right, like, it really does become an addiction. And, and again, it's not necessarily his fault, like, you know, maybe he never learned healthier ways to cope. Right. And, and then and a lot of us are hurting a lot of us are struggling and dealing with some hard stuff. And it's like, we don't know what to do with it. So we just, we just, we just share it, because it's like, it's too much for us to hold on to. So it's like, here, you take some of it, right? Like, we need each other's help. But like, obviously, you know, there are productive ways to do that. And then there are unproductive ways to do that. Like the productively was actually admitting, like, you need to go to a therapist, just not even for therapy, just to talk to someone that won't judge you kind of thing, huh? Yeah. Yeah, you know, and maybe this guy doesn't have right somebody in his life that he can talk to that he can get some of that, you know, validation and compassion from. And I think that's, that's unfortunate. You know, that's the value of close friendships and good relationships. Like, you know, we all need somebody that we can turn to when we're having a rough day, and just be like, Hey, man, like, let me just vent for a second, right? And just know that we're not going to be judged and they're still going to be there for us at the end of that. That's really important. It really is. Yeah, you there's always that one guy or gal you can call, it knows they'll drop whatever they're doing. Listen to what you say. And then at the end, I'll be like, okay, you're an idiot. But here's why. All right, or you're an idiot and I still love you and I love you because you're an idiot. I'm gonna be right Like, that's, that's the sort of right. That's the friendship that you want. Because you know that like, there's that unbreakable bond, right? They're there for you even, right, they're there for you at your worst, they're there for your best. Right? That is loyalty. That's That's good stuff, you know, and there are some people out there that don't have that. And then you know, you look at what's going on. And you know, you just like the shootings, the killings, I like all these things like, you know, I can only help to imagine that those people, right, don't have anybody like that in their lives. Right. So like, what happens to all that anger, all that emotion that they can't handle, it gets bottled up until one day it comes out through a gun and causes a hell a lot of suffering? Yes, but also, there was that one point back in like 18 and 19, where like, there was a gun shooting every week. So people, maybe they wouldn't have normally done it. But it was because it was so they got their 15 minutes of fame. like, Whoa, I wonder if I do it I in my minutes of fame kind of thing. Yeah. And I feel like this, this is definitely a topic that probably deserves more time than we have to give it right now. You know, it's like the psychology of mass shooters. And is, is complex. And there's definitely this, this idea of, of being the spotlight of, you know, of wanting attention like it because I do think it goes out just like all of us, to a certain extent, like we want attention, we need attention from others. And again, there are healthy ways of asking for attention. And they're extremely destructive ways of doing that. Yeah. It's like, I'm paraphrasing the whole quote, but essentially, you are who you associate with. So if you're associated with toxicity, and friends are negative and tearing you down, well, then you will become that sort of like you want to be successful. You need associate with business people. kind of thing. Can you? Yeah, you know that I think that similar idea, it's like you are the average of the five people that you spend the most time with? Yes. Right. And I think that that just points directly at the ways in which all of us are so impacted by our relationships, we're so affected by the social fabric that we live in, right, and the ways that can impact us can be really helpful or not so much. And so it does, it does require a little bit of discernment, right. And sometimes you might need to distance yourself from somebody. Right? And, and that can be tricky too. Because if it's somebody that you've known for a long time, it's somebody that you care about, it's like, you know, you don't want to abandon them. But you also need to respect yourself, you need to set boundaries, I talk a lot about boundaries as being one of the four pillars of self care, right? It's like until we set that boundary of saying, hey, like, you know, it's like, this is this, I'm drawing that line in the sand. Right? And it's like, if you crossed that line that I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to turn the other way, because there's too much and it's like, I can't, I can't sacrifice my own well, being right to take on all of that extra stuff that you're putting out there. I have to agree. So then we go into the four pillars, and then do you have to hit off? Yeah, we can, we can go into that. So you know, I talk a lot about this idea of like a self care chair, which is sort of the metaphor that I use for self care. But, you know, the chair chairs got four legs, right, the four pillars. And and I like to say it's great if you have all four of these things, right? If you have three, you're probably doing okay. But if you had two, you're going to topple. And that's usually when thing when things hit the fan and aren't going so well. Right. So the four pillars I said one is boundaries. Right. Another one is perspectives. Another one is tools. And then another one is strategies. And I can go into each of those in a little bit more detail. Right? And so we talked a little bit about the boundaries, right? That just being very clear about, you know, where, where are you drawing that line for yourself, right, and just making sure that at the end of the day, like you are protecting what's vital for you, you're protecting your own well being, and you're not letting somebody else constantly step on your toes, or constantly dump all of their stuff on you. And that doesn't mean that you don't care doesn't mean that you can't help but it's like there's there's some clear boundaries there. And boundaries can be kind of physical, in terms of like space boundaries, like especially working from home or if you share your home with other people. Like I think having physical boundaries is important. But often boundaries are invisible. And and I think a lot of problems for most people is that a they never communicate them or be they never protect them. Right? And so that you can put boundaries and say like, Hey, I'm gonna like put this in my calendar. This is like my exercise time, right? So like, you set up this sort of boundary, like by putting something in your calendar, you're putting a boundary around that time saying, I'm going to do this with that time. But a lot of times you don't protect that boundary, and you let other things creep in and take away from it. Right. So protecting our boundaries, requires some some confidence and some courage. And that's important. The next thing is, is perspectives. And so this has to do with perspective taking or seeing things from different angles from different viewpoints. Right? So if you're having a really crappy day, right, that's like your friend coming in and being like, Hey, man, I know you're having a crappy day, but like, you know, have you ever thought about it from this perspective? Like, you know, like, what would what would somebody You know, whose, you know, grandmother just died have to say like, Is it really crappy compared to that? And like, I'm not trying to get caught in suffering, but it's like, it's just taking a different perspective of your day. Right? It definitely whatever is going on for you. And I think sometimes All we need is just that perspective shift, we need to stop getting in our own sucky victim, oh, pity Poor me mindset, I mean, you'd pull ourselves out of that, and just take a different viewpoint. So having the ability to take different perspectives is another important thing for taking care of ourselves. Right. The third thing would be would be tools. And so these tools can be really like tangible tools, right, like self care tools. And like maybe that's like your pair of running shoes. You know, maybe that's, that's like a yoga mat, maybe that's, you know, your your favorite perfume or cologne, like these are certain things that you can use that you know, are going to enable you things that empower you, right to take care of your health and your well being. Right. They can also be practices like meditation, or mindfulness or just like taking a couple of deep breaths, right? That's a tool that's like a resource and inner resource that you have. So the tools are things that you can draw upon when you need them. Right. So it's like, if you're, if you're, if you're like, suiting up for a journey, it's like, what are you going to pack in your bag? Right? Those are the tools. And everybody has different tools. And you need different tools for different types of stressors. But it's like, the more tools you have in your self care toolkit, the better off you're going to be. Absolutely. And then the fourth one is strategies. And this is like if you know, right, this is the like, you know, going into Thanksgiving dinner with the family, right? It's like, what's your game? What's your game plan, right for that, like, if you know, you're going to enter into a stressful situation, if you know, you're going to enter into some sort of challenge. It's like, do you have a game plan? Right? Do you have an intention? Do you have a strategy that's going to help you navigate through that right in a way where you can take care of yourself and hopefully, you know, not cause any harm to anybody else. And so I think those four things like when you have all of those in place, the boundaries, the strategies, the tools and the perspectives, it's like, you have a really robust foundation for taking care of yourself. But problem is when we lose some of those things, right? It's like, we don't respect our boundaries. We don't have a lot of tools, because maybe we haven't really learned a lot of techniques for taking care of ourselves and knock out another leg. Right? And then, and then we we don't have a very, maybe we don't have people to talk to like we just so we don't have an opportunity to shift that mindset to shift our perspective. Boom. So now we're standing on just one of those sports legs. And our self care is very fragile. And I think that's when people start to burn out and fall apart and our health and are physically and mentally really starts to degrade. It really does. It's, the bigger complexity is like you said, it's, we were always taught one leg, you make it work out, just sheer iron will and you'll get it done. But there's a bigger problem at play. You need more, more feet on the ground kind of thing. Yeah, I that piece of like you're taught to just muscle through it, right. It's like just get it done. Just figure it out. Just keep pushing, keep pushing, you know, and yeah, like there are times and places for that there's definitely a time for being really gritty and persevering, and just kind of pushing through it. However, when you do that day after day after day after day, right, it's not a sustainable strategy. And I think that difference, right between like a short term solution and a long term sustainable self care practice, right? Like, there's a big difference in there. And so my work, what I most hope is to try to teach people it's like, how can we move away from the sort of simple short term fixes into a place where you can have this sort of like long term sustainable health and wellness? So on that very good note, where can all the guests get in contact with you? Yeah, so the best way to find me is just online on my website, Jeff Siegel, wellness, Siegel, spelled si eg L. You can find me on Instagram at Jeff Siegel, wellness, you can find the Facebook at Jeff Siegel, wellness basically all over social. Just Google Jeff Segal on this, you should should pop up. And so yet sign up for my newsletter I send out a couple times a month with articles, interviews, different things that I'm writing and putting out there. Awesome. Well, thank you, Jeff. definitely got to get you on in the future. Josh, thank you so much. I appreciate all of your comments, all of your sharing and, you know, personal experience and yeah, it's really interesting to hear so thanks so much. Thank you, Jeff. Stay safe and stay well.