The Future of AR and VR | Lucas Steuber

Today we have a conversation with Lucas about the future. But also for the future of the paraplegic community to interact with the world more than they would've before. We apply AR interface with smart technology for the person with paraplegia but all humans in general. Streamlining processes making Corporation training more efficient and cost-effective. 
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round here. Let's see what's like the most important part of a zoom meeting? Well then I failed. This is my actual background. Yeah, my there you can see my, my beautiful environment here. I'm not doing I used to. I used to have all these like videos. like puppies playing and stuff. I like to mess with people. Here we go. We can do the do this is this is fine. That one's perfectly now. That's perfect. Well, hey, I am so sorry for missing you yesterday, man. I know it was just the day heads up. Because I was okay, good. Yeah, it's just I've had a lot of people list literally Blue Origin. No, it's like, fine. I'll just have it send a day before now. Right? Right. Okay, good. That makes me feel better because I eat it weirdly enough by just some like twist of fate. I ended up having. I had two other I had two other podcast interviews yesterday. And I totally missed them both. And like you said you had no power. Yeah. So this is like one of the wonderful joys of Southern California is like we're not quite Texas in the cold, but random blackouts totally happen. Yeah, yeah. I'm, like, 30 miles south of LA. Oh, really? No kidding. So you're Yeah, so you're, I mean, it's funny because I just moved to California, five months ago or something like that. And you know, nobody knows their geography. So I was like, hey, like, we should do a drive to San Francisco for a day from from Santa Barbara. And my wife is like, No, no, no. And like, you can get to LA in like two and a half hours if you leave at exactly the right time of day, I guess. Yeah. If you go during rush hour, that it's guaranteed two hours. Yeah, yeah. Near the log. The like, I will write on what's good issue. I am I was I've listened to a couple episodes now. So I've had a pretty good sense. But advisor, anything you want to under no. Prep on are? You so you told me you were into the VR AR for people and especially with the correlating with disabilities? Yeah, exactly. So the so I mean, I'll probably tell the story again. So I'll say really, in brief, but basically, I'm a speech language pathologist, I worked clinically for a long time with people that you know, were nonverbal. And then in the last like, seven years, I've been building tools like for them to communicate, it started most, you know, a lot of tablet apps, things like that. But there are some people that are just completely paralyzed, locked in. So what we've just built is a it's a it's a brain computer interface paired with an augmented reality display. So that's so fascinating. Yeah, you're going to go into way more detail about that. Yeah, yeah, I know. It's like I should always put about things about podcasts. Like, I could pull up a picture, but Well, I've had back in the late 90s, early 2000s they they thought it was like schizophrenic crazy. So they had me do a brain one and we even back then to like think of a rabbit and I thought of a robin it's like boom, like what the hell? Yeah, Mike Yes. And weird Voodoo shit. How do you know this? Yeah, I think the difference now is just that that stuff has gotten like we've gotten this is the first one that's been like portable and wearable you know, because the lab ones for ages, but they you know, electricity and tons of electricity inefficient for the public to come see it because you got to schedule appointment. All right, great. So then, let's just get right into it. Lucas, tell me. Tell me about yourself. Lucas, what you do what you've been doing the past COVID times? You have it the COVID times? Yes. I remember the before times the long long ago when we could not anymore. It's like a minute feels like forever. I know it's been like both the longest and the shortest year of all time. But um, what so? Yeah, so my name is Luca suvir. I'm what am I? I was you know, I'll tell you, here's my whole little narrative. I was my my family is all very heavy, business oriented people. And the expectation was always that I would be an NBA and go I don't know work for some hedge fund or whatever that would be and I ended up taking classes in computer science thinking that maybe that was a good compromise for them in undergrad and then my university had the audacity to force me to take classes outside of my like major like I think a lot of universities do this make that go longer? Yeah, I think they tried to say it's the ground you out as an individual right. But I but I so ended up taking a class in linguistics and I think it was literally so I could sleep in on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Oh, nice was like the the motivation. But it was like I you know, I don't know what Erwin Just experiences but it was like, like I just absolutely fell in love with, with the field. I had always been really into math and which is I know one of those weird sentences that no one ever says. But I, I found a lot of a lot of commonality between what I liked about math and what I liked about language. And that it's it's systematic, it's, it's something that can look very complex that reduces itself and is something very simple. But it's also very powerful. And so I end up getting a bachelor's degree in a master's degree in applied linguistics, focused on comp that encompasses corpus and computational linguistics, which back then was a little bit less sophisticated than what you see with like Alexa and stuff these days, you know, it was just raw analysis and text and my thesis was actually on language in schizophrenia. So let's see if you see him all right. We're doing good so far. Okay. But um, so anyway, I decided that I wanted more student loan debt after that, and became a speech language pathologist, which is one of those fun job titles like I might I think we what I am is I'm a speech language pathologist and a product manager. And if somebody asks me on an airplane, what I do for a living, I just want to tell them like, I don't know, I catch cats on the street for fun, because I don't want to explain these things, or you just go with too much. I'm an accountant. They don't ask questions. Yeah, exactly. That's vivid. No one asked me about money. And I don't even I can't even count nickels. But so anyway, I worked. So speech language pathologist, there's a whole wide range of things that they do. I mean, the traditional one people think of is like King's speech, or, you know, like, you know, stuttering, speech, sound disorders, you know, little kids, they can't say there are sounds, that wasn't me at all, I ended up getting involved with, I guess what we would call rare and low end, rare low incidence, or even sometimes they call them orphan disorders, like really uncommon, genetic or required conditions, which mostly leave people either completely nonverbal or completely paralyzed, or both. So for the past seven years, I've been building what we call augmentative communication devices, which is a really funnily long phrase for a field that is supposed to help people communicate like augmentative and alternative communication. But what everyone always thinks of is, is Stephen Hawking, right? Like he was kind of the classic example of somebody who used a computer to speak. And there's a lot more of them than people realize. I mean, it's like, basically, like three new york cities of people in the United States. Just real quick, what's the stats on that? Is it like one in 101 kind of thing? You know, I'm just gonna remove autism spectrum from the equation, because that's the one that has a whole lot in. Yeah, that adds a bunch. But I mean, we're talking on the order of, you know, a little bit under a million people in US alone, that have a profound what we would call a complex communication disorder. And that could be something that they're born with, like somebody with cerebral palsy, for example, that's how he impacted. Or it could be ALS. You know, later in life for Parkinson's or even dementia, aphasia after a stroke is a really big one. Though, there's, there's a lot of folks, I tend to kind of think of them as this silent minority, right? Because you don't, you don't really encounter a lot of these people, because they're either in care homes, or, you know, at home with family. But I, you know, one of the problems is that to the best of my knowledge, or do my best, why math only something like 7% of people that could benefit from augmentative communication are like even aware that it exists, right? It's kind of a brand new field. And traditionally, it's been really hard to get to, like, get the stuff you know, because if you really, like if you need to, like have an idi gaze tracking machine, right, because you have late stage ALS and so you're looking at your computer to control things, we need to get to be upwards of$16,000 right. So, yeah, unless your daddy warbucks You're, you're going through insurance, and, you know, that's not always the top of the list when you have, you know, other medical conditions. So, so anyway, so one of my big goals over the last seven years has been to sort of lower prices and democratize and raise awareness and, and then, most recently, came out with this brain computer interface coupled with AR VR, which I'm sure we'll talk about, because that's that's that's kind of the probably the probably the newest thing in the industry for a while. We'll just the V AR AR industry, it's it's still so young, but it's growing so fast. The applications that we can fathom now are way too many in the future, like, I've been reading articles about how they're going to use it strictly now for training naive and COVID, because it's like it's a factory worker, they can see you and be like, oh, move your hands here. Yep, yep, yep, yep. And we've thought about that same sort of stuff in disability space, like if you have, you know, a child with autism or Down syndrome to cue them to wash their hands for long enough, you know, in the bathroom, or to look both ways before they cross the road. I mean, there's all kinds of really interesting contextual data we can get from things like computer vision, and the white are sensors that are in like new iPads and things like that. So Well, I think I was just hearing on news, a tech podcast at Google nest, I guess, now has sonar, so we can detect where you are. Exactly. If you're breathing and sleeping, and all that. Wow, it's creepy that Google Google now knows exactly where you're at. But that's the same thing like, wow, that's actually really good. Yeah, well, that's, you know, that reminds me, you know, Alexa just released their Home Guard thing, which is not not I don't think exactly the same, but it wasn't for things like glass breaking, and, you know, it's abnormal noises, dogs barking, you know, as a way to sort of, like, notify you. So does that mean, there's all kinds of, that's one of the most interesting things, especially with AR VR. And brain computer interface for that matter, is that, you know, we're building this for a specific use case, right, which is people that are like, paralyzed, locked in need to communicate, want to play Angry Birds, watch YouTube, you know, everything that I'd want to do, if I was, you know, paralyzed. But I'm really, really curious to see what people will come up with, right. For a long time, I've heard people say that AR VR is a really amazing technology that has a lack of content. Right? And that's kind of true. Like, I remember getting like one of the original Oculus, and it was like, do I want to play a roller coaster simulator water roller coaster speech doing under 17? You know, or I could shoot some zombies, you know? And it's, it's come away since then. But I mean, it's it's a it's a far away from maximizing its potential. Yeah, no, it is. And it's like we were mentioning, it's so new. That the, there's just limitless possibilities, stuff you'll never be able to think of today. Right? Right. Yeah, well, it'll be great to watch. I mean, that's what I liked being a quote unquote, young professional, I don't know 40 counts as that. But I get to watch this for for a while still and see what happens. But in the case of like, our device, I mean, we have Amazon has been really gracious with us. So we actually have Alexa built into the wearable device. So it's very much possible that you could be sitting in your room and look over at the fan and using the brain computer interface, activate the fan, right, or turn off the lights and turn on the television, those sorts of things. And, you know, you think about the, the autonomy that that affords someone that's in that situation. Like there's, there's a condition that only affects women called Rett Syndrome. It was actually was my, this is kind of how I got into this, I had a student with red, when she was 17 years old, she never really had a system to communicate with at all. And so we got her set up with this eye gaze control thing on a Windows machine. And the very first thing she did was navigate down to the start menu and one Solitaire, just like you have observationally for seven years, like figured out how to do this stuff. Like that's wild like to, you know, to think of like to have that experience to be able to perceive everything around you but not be able to interact with it. crippling also just mentally. Yeah, right? Well, I mean, that's the thing is like, how often does a 17 year old girl with Rett Syndrome gets it slammed the door on her parents or leave a room messy or whatever, you know, I mean, the only option that these kids have is refusal basically to do something. And then in the schools, they get put on a plan because they're, you know, not compliant and some other stuff. And it's like, no, this is just frustrated, you know, they can't do anything. So wait Rhett syndrome before they become completely immobilized, but they're perfectly healthy and normal. Yeah, so it's, it's actually it's interesting. It's kind of the opposite of what you think a paraplegic so it impacts waist up, so they won't have any voluntary movement of their hands or trunk. There's often a lot of scoliosis, like spine sort of stuff. The range of intelligence, in Rett Syndrome, it's actually in the same family of disorders as Autism Spectrum Disorder. So there are definitely more highly impacted and less highly impact Did individuales but I know plenty of girls with red that did sit there with a I gaze keyboard and read a novel, you know, and and then I know some that are a little bit more limited to yes and no. But that's but that's part of our job in speech pathology is not one to always presume competence, right and start at the top. So I started the most complex and work away back. And you know, but then also do what we call feature matching and make sure that we're, you know, giving them a system that doesn't immediately frustrate them and piss him off because then they're then then it's then it's over. Right? If you know if they if they don't like it, they're not going to try it again. Yeah, bad taste in mouth is like I'm not going back. Yep, yep. Exactly. I wouldn't say I want to go in a little bit of the AR VR. And you said the mental interface. So let's first go to the mental How does that work? The chip? Yeah, sure. So there's, I mean, and you know, we're in podcast land here, if you go to just anyone listening, it's one dot cognition, which is co g ni x IO n comm, you can see some pictures to get your head around it, but it looks a fair amount like, like, you know, like, like an Oculus, or like a PlayStation VR sort of thing. So there's a headband that goes around. And for someone who doesn't have any hair like me in, you know, it's really where it's real real well, and easily. You know, there's some adjustments on the electrodes for people with thicker hair, longer hair, but there's basically two ground electrodes at your temples. And then there's five electrodes at your occipital lobe, which is what handles to the back of your head, which is what handles vision. And so what we use is what's called an evoked response. So like, say, you're walking down the street, and like, your arm is just doing its arm thing. And you know, there's a nerve in it, and it's chilling out and having a good day, and then somebody suddenly pinches you, like that would be what we consider an evoked response. It's like a spike in, in your neural activity like, wow, like that. What is this? And so we're not pinching people. Hopefully, that's not a good modality for recording a St. Patrick's Day. So as long as you know wearing green, it's okay. Oh, no, I'm not wearing green, you got your background? So, yes, there we go. Okay, that's why I'm kind of a ginger, so I get a pass, you get a complete pass for that one. But, um, so what we use is, they're called steady states, or code modulated visual evoked potentials. So. So say, for example, you're looking through this, it's actually a mixed reality display, so you can see the world around you. And then there's a hologram projected, which can be folders and phrases or a keyboard or control mechanism for Alexa, there's a lot of different stuff that can come up. Well, every one of those interface icons is really rapidly flat flashing at a specific frequency. So it'll be like 12 hertz, or 18 hertz or 23 hertz. And what we can do is actually look at if you picture just like a sine wave in in the occipital lobe, when it suddenly starts to match that the frequency of of the one specific interactive item, then we're able to figure out that that's what they're attending to, and then activate it. So it's, it's it's really reliable. It's, you know, it's, I wouldn't say it's fast and necessarily I mean, people are running about 17 words per minute. Creating which actually is quite good for a see but you know, you and I are talking right now is something like 100 words per minute. So we're always looking, always looking to improve that but one of the things that's critical about this is Haha, take that Elon Musk we beat you to the market because he's doing that the neural link but but that's we deliberately avoided doing an invasive solution, right. I think it's going to be challenging enough to educate you know, a 70 year old person with ALS on you know, how to become a cyborg without, you know, putting bullets in their brain. So, literally as just as he was there was the whole thing I work as a guest Musk was doing that the big display, and everyone was like, Oh my God is so great. I'm like, Yeah, but here's the biggest problem with everything. He said it's Yeah, he has to go into your brain. They're ready time. I said is there anesthesia because if this anesthesia there's a mild chance you could die getting this right very well. Yeah, and there's there's also a lot of questions about the the migration of those implants and if you do like an MRI or something like that, you know, are they just gonna blow out of your head like, like shrapnel, you know, and I? Listen, it's it's, uh, especially for things like deep brain stimulation for tremors and Things like that I'm absolutely in support, I'm really glad to see somebody thrown a bunch of money behind it. But, you know, going back to the affordability piece, you know, right now, if you're using like an eye gaze computer or any I mean, literally just, you know, picture a monitor in front of you with a little tracking bar. And you've got a grid of icons or whatever, and you're you sit there and you fixate on one, and then you fixate on the next, you fixate on the third. But one thing that's lacking from that the entire time is real human interaction, right? Like, you're not like looking the other person in the eye, because you're blocked by this thing. Right. So that was one of our goals was to have this overlay where you still could be making eye contact, you're still observing your surroundings, you still looking at the person and chatting with them. And, you know, spoiler alert, it's gonna be substantially less expensive than the traditional IP solutions, even though it's a lot more sophisticated. So once you pay me say that, I mean, with my CEO near me, to be determined, I mean, we know how much it costs us and we know how much it costs to maintain his other stuff. What is a little bit of an X factor is the the resale market and what that's going to look like, because I really do not want to build, quote, unquote, boots on the ground from a sales perspective for this, you know, the hieronder people to go out and sell it, you know, what I want to contract with with other folks. Logistically, it's just a lot easier. And so that that's where we sort of don't know. But I do know that like the Medicaid cap, for a device like this to$16,700, which is exactly why everyone charges at $16,700. And we, we want to come in below that not just so that we're you know, the low cost best alternative, but also so that, you know, potentially people could buy it themselves. Like one one quirk of our wonderful American insurance system, is that you only get funding for a speech generating device every five years. And so say, you have like, I'll use als as an example. Again, this is a degenerative disorder. So like me, maybe you're starting to have some trouble talking, but your your hands still work. So you go and get a touchscreen communication device. And then two years later, you've generated to the point where you need eye gaze, and you just blow your funding. Right? You can't, you can't redo that piece. And so what we've tried to do is create this sort of story where we actually have an app that works on the iPod or the iPad, and then you can go through the iPad, or iPod or iPhone, excuse me, you can go to the iPad, where we have eye tracking, and then you can graduate from that to, you know, to the wearable when you need it. And you know, the app for the iPhone or the iPod, right that is you know, it's 150 bucks, which isn't. It isn't nothing, but it's it's a lot more affordable than 17 grand. Yeah, yeah, just thinking about it. If, because I know there's some apps, they're complete garbage, then tensioning. And they, it's $1,000 to buy it. So someone apparently bought it. Yeah. What was that thing? Yeah, the diamond one. Yeah. I think for fun, they tried to do 10,000. But no one was like after the $1,000 one to like, screw you. I feel like if you buy that, like a trapdoor should just open and you just fall in the pit. Also just a generic diamond off the internet. It's not even like he he even tried. You know, on the one hand, like, That's terrible. But on the other, I'm in the wrong business man. Right. So crazy. But do you remember those those guys that sold the million pixel website where you could buy like one pixel for $1,000? Right? No, no, no. No, it was a million. So it was a million pixels at $1 each year. That's what it was. Yeah. And, and, you know, some people would like try to make art with with whatever. And, and it's interesting, because I've actually followed that story a little bit. The kid paid his way through college. From from that idea. So you know, again, good for him. never would have thought of it that. Hey, I'm build a brain computer interfaces. So I'm in the weird category, too. Yeah. And you'll definitely be successful because especially with COVID, and all the different shifting the concept already of augmented realities. Very well accepted. I think it's taking 20 years. It's gonna be like a 80 90 billion industry. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think that might even be Whoa, yeah, that might I mean, it's so yeah. And to comments on that. I mean, the first one is that COVID actually has one of you know, one of the unintentional positives, because then it's really raised awareness of augmentative communication and we actually put out flipbook that you get laminate in the hospitals that had, you know, basic, just like choices and comments and things, but then frankly, it also had, you know, some end of life language, you know, you know, please take me off the ventilator or whatever, because some, you know, these folks, they're perfectly Cognizant, they're just, they were intubated. Right, so they couldn't speak for the first time in their lives. And there were ton of them, there still are tons of them. So that that actually has provoked a lot of hospitals to look at just having things like you know, like a mountable, I gaze computer up above you know, the the hospital bed so that people that are intubated can communicate, which I've been saying, for years, we need to do that in the dentist office. Because the dentist always asked me like, what did you do last weekend? And I'm like, Yeah, like, I just gave me a copy. Give me a computer. So I can say like, shut up. Where'd you get your license? you crack? But, uh, yeah, so that's, that's been sort of an unintentional benefit. And then, as far as the, the ubiquity of AR VR, I mean, it's like, the comparison I like to make is about 150,000 years ago, when we look at human remains their their feet, bones suddenly got a lot smaller and a lot weaker. And it was right around the time that we started finding shoes, in burial sites. So like, we literally exported part of our body's capacity into our environment, because we sort of assumed that this prosthetic would always be there, like shoes. And when people's will say something like, Oh, I, you know, I don't want to carry my iPad around with me to communicate or whatever. It's like, Alright, well, I'm wearing glasses, and I'm wearing clothes, because I'm cold, and I'm wearing shoes, because my feet otherwise would hurt like, we all are users of prosthetics. And we're all users of AC in a sense, I would say that I send more email and text messages per day than I do speak. You know, all that oral language really is is squirting air through the meat on your face is not particularly elegant. It's not and then, if any other creature listening to sounds like we're just screaming like absolute Banshee and say, What are you doing? Yep, yep, yep, exactly. Yeah. And it's fun to listen to. I actually, I have a friend that, um, I can't believe he got money to do this. But he dressed up drones in Hoss Hawk costumes, and flew them around the forests in Oregon. And would you I mean, come on, what a job. Like, was it cool? I know. And what he did is he put all these these microphones around, and he listened to the squirrels, because what you wanted to know was, are they saying or they just think, Oh, no. Or are they saying, Oh, no, Hey, little squirrel buddies, there's a hawk to the north, or to the west or whatever. And it turns out, the squirrels are actually warning each other, like they actually have different noises for like, the direction that the predator is coming from. And that's like, that's how this must have started, right? I mean, there's the beginning of human language. And then the evolution since then, has really just been so that we can like, more specifically articulate an individual descriptive point or something right, you know? Yeah. Well, one thing I've noticed that it there's no like articles or anything, I can back it. But I've would have personally come to conclusion of, like, let's see elephants. They're very smart, gentle, big beast. And they will they like, we could literally forget each other's face within like, two months of each other. The elephant will remember us, by the time it dies kind of thing. Right? But it's one of those the guests, they show similar attributes as us so like, we see the dead we mourn, we have a burial. Apparently, they do exactly the same thing. My thoughts is essentially, what if literally, the only difference is will are shaped but also just communication. We might be just the screaming squirrel in the corner, and they're like, what are you doing? Yeah, why is this why is this thing making so much noise? Yeah, that was so Noam Chomsky, right. The the linguist of linguists that he made the comment that the the the only thing that differentiates humans from other animals is language. And I would I object to that on two levels. Actually, one of them is that I know plenty of people that can't speak that I still qualify as human. And number two is, I think that there actually is more complex communication going on. I have another friend that his PhD dissertation was teaching chimpanzees to exchange pictures and it was like, a picture of food and they'd get food and that sort of thing. So the at the heart of language is this concept of symbolic representation. Like, you know, like it like the most concrete example of a dog, for example, is is a dog like, okay, there's a dog, and then there's a picture of a dog, which is okay, that's the word dog. And then there's like a drawing of a dog which is like, okay, that's, that's the dog. You know, and and there's an advantage to the drawing because it could be like any genus of dog, right? It doesn't have to be just like a golden retriever. Right? And then the whole nother level of abstraction is the sounds coming out of dog right and to, to, to understand all those layers of abstraction going all the way back is not only pretty remarkable, but is certainly not unique to humans. I mean, if I, George Yep, there comes my cat. So we haven't we have symbolic knowledge folks. As What do you call it? George? You carry your dog? George's cat. Okay, I thought it was the dog for some reason I go, he called for a dog and got a cat instead. Now that actually that sounds about right, the cat would be like, What? What do you want? Go away, dog. Yeah. So then, for what I'm gathering right now. Correct me if I'm wrong. So when we think of like the dog, it will, if we're thinking to display it, it would actually show us in the actual interface. Right? Right. So we are, this isn't, this isn't mind reading. And in fact, for anyone who's sitting here thinking about it, even like the Alexa thing that I talked about is opt in everything, all the processing happens on the device. So it's very, it's very privacy oriented, it's very compliant with HIPAA, and all those different things. GDPR. So, you know, I definitely would not be shocked in my lifetime to, you know, to see brain computer interface that could do something like that. And there are, in fact, some, in lab work, they can at least identify, you know, the colors that you're looking at, and things like that. But, but for us, what we do is yes, it's a we call it a closed loop system, and it's specifically its response to presented stimuli, you know, that are at these different frequencies. So, you know, again, it's, you know, keyboard phrases, but we're trying to incorporate, when, when we watch this thing, it's really going to be, which is just, it's soon, I mean, it's working now, it's just, we got to make a bunch of them. You know, it's going to be launching for what we call the adult literate population. So like, again, the ALS, the older CP, things like that people that people that can use a predictive keyboard, right? to spell and like, have some literacy and can read, you know, a sentence, there's a couple places I want to go from there. And one of them is to go into the more pediatric space where it is a lot more symbol driven, rather than, rather than orthographic. Right. So instead of letters, you might have, you know, that symbol of a dog, you know, whereas an adult might actually go do G, you know, both developmentally, especially kids that have a cognitive impairment, you know, that they need something a little bit different. So I'd like to work on that system. And then Part two is if I'm laying in bed, paralyzed after a motorcycle accident, or whatever it might be, like, I don't be exactly, I don't want to just say dog, I want to play Angry Birds and watch YouTube and, you know, all kinds of other stuff. And so that's, that's kind of the next step to is to get. Get those things integrated. And the, you know, we're working with the group that we work with, we're, you know, I'm a clinician, you know, we have our r&d group is mostly neurologists, and bio signals analysts. You know, we're not game designers. So if anyone out there is listening, that is a game designer, we would absolutely love to incorporate, you know, things like that into the system. I was actually just thinking I'm like, even if it's not just the paraplegic, people who can't talk kind of thing, it just be awesome to have like an interface where you can look, and then just like, swipe with your eyes and be like, Okay, I'm on this page on my phone now. And then, like, swipe again, and like I'm playing some video game kind of thing. Right? Yeah. Well, and spoiler alert, is that that sort of eye tracking is absolutely coming to phones and is already in it. So but they're there. The motivation for that is mostly figure out which ads you're looking at for the longest amount of time. Yeah. Yeah. Orient to be like, yeah, like, the other day, and my wife was cooking in the kitchen. And our little Alexa is is in there. It's, you know, yeah, well, the ones a little with the screen is Oh, it doesn't the recipes or whatever, okay, and I was trying to get it to turn on the lights, and it couldn't hear me because of all the stuff that was going on. And I was like, man, I need the visor. So I get this big lights, like, you know, like this is, you know, that's part of what I mean by I'm curious to see what people will do with it because, like, one of one of my tenants and I don't know if this is a just a me thing, or if this is a business rule, but I think if you build for the hardest use case, first Then it's going to be a lot easier to generalize into, you know, other populations. And so my sincere hope is that what we build is going to end up being useful for, you know, a lot more than just people with disabilities. Do you think eventually it'll downgrade to more of like your glasses? It won't look like the Google ledger. It's a frickin light, like you, obviously 1010 are coming off kind of thing. But it's just do you think eventually with technology, and with everything, you might actually be just like your glasses? Yeah, it's possible. I mean, the the biggest problem that we face is actually, the funny comparison is hearing it. So there's a really similar problem with both in terms of signal to noise ratio. So there's like a whole ton of electrical activity going on, on the skin and in the brain, right. And so the big work of like, the algorithm and the electrodes is to try to find that, that specific sign pattern among all this other junk that's going on, and that's treated, that's why these things normally have been in labs, right, because they need to be plugged in and take a bunch of juice. You know, one of the big things here is that this is portable, and effective. Hearing aids are similar. Like if you think about the ones like my grandfather had won in, like the 70s, were just amplified everything, and he hated it, because like, the whole room was just loud. But they've put all this work in to the math of, you know, near field sound detection, and like trying to pay attention to the person you're actually listening to, and sort of ignore everything else. And simultaneously, they're under all this pressure to increase battery life and to make the thing smaller, and all these other things. So I could absolutely see glasses. I did. In fact, there was a company called North that that made some glasses that had some basic interaction, stuff like that using the muscles around the eyes. Just to measure. Yeah, I think I think that the I mean, our specific paradigm in terms of the way that we do it, by looking at the occipital lobe, you know, you'd have to have like wraparound glasses. Oh, yeah. To do a look at it from Star Trek. Yeah. Hey, man, I'm, I'm down. I The thing is, I don't know if like how many, you know, seven year olds want to turn into cyborgs. But, but I would wear those. But right. I mean, that's that's it, just it but but this what I say about visual evoked potentials. It's not the only type of this like So see, like Stephen Hawking has an example. Like the way that he communicated, was by twitching leg, essentially one eye muscle to scroll through his systems. That's what he had, I thought he would actually look at it. That's why it would take him so long to reply. He had a little, little display of the words, he had a look at the word, or he had to like scroll to find the other one. Yeah, well, you scroll up. So he scrolled by using this one muscle, so he would actually like, tap through the different. And often he would pre compose what he wrote, he actually did not use an eye gaze, or we call it reflectometry system. And he could have, he could have switched to one by the last 10 years of his life, but he just had been using the one for so long. He liked it. I know the guy that built it for him. And it's easy at Intel, and it's very creative. But but this is another thing that we find, right is that once you get used to using a specific system, you know, it's like, I was in the airport in France, like, I don't know, 10 years ago or something in Charles de Gaulle, which is like the nastiest airport in Europe. And you could, you could rent a computer for like, five euros every 10 minutes. And I was like, I'm gonna check my mail. And then I went to look at the keyboard. And I was like, What the heck is this? Because it was all laid out totally differently, right? Because it's a French keyboard. And it's not that dissimilar from learning a new system. You know, if you're familiar with something like Stephen was, or like, I have, you know, patients now that still want to use the same thing they had 510 years ago, even though there's better technology and okay. You know, that's, that's, it's not my choice to make. Right? Yeah, it's, I think it's more comfort. Because if you have to do the new thing, it's uncomfortable. So just stick with the whole thing. Right, right. Yep. And yeah, and then whatever the learning curve is, and then there's some things that they just may not want to use, like. Like the thinking of my wife, in particular, like, you know, Britain, Fulbright Scholar, a brilliant person and Master's in linguistics does not organize in any way the apps on her phone and doesn't check or care about notifications. Like it drives me nuts. I look at her phone. I don't be like, it'll be so quick for you. I'm like Jesus Christ. There's a notification. Yeah, I know. I can't stand it. It's like it drives me nuts. And then like, I'll look at her in her settings. And she's like, six versions of iOS behind or whatever. And so I'll be like, Hi, and Hey, honey. Yeah. I'm going to upgrade your phone and then she's like, there's widgets. Now I hate this like, Well, you know, it's like, Okay, get your flip phone. But, you know, again, I'm you know, I make jokes but, but that's perfectly. I mean again it's not my decision right? It's perfectly reasonable. So I mean, I still I still wear a Nirvana t shirt all the time from like, that's, that's good. That's a good continuation. Okay, this is getting a little ratty. Yeah. Because some of the kids I saw I work currently night shift at a local store and they don't even know like Metallica. Wow, I don't like I just sat there my god you're missing out you listen to your Spotify with all your your hip hop and post malone and all that shit. I'm like, you're missing on a whole thing. Just I told him Hey, look up this playlist. It's Metallica, Iron Maiden Nirvana and all this enjoy. Hey, is it you could shit man. Like, I know, it's the 30 plus years old. still freaking better stuff out now. You got to start handing out. Like, like, mixtapes, like an empire records. I know I was there was something that was like a sublime song that was playing or something. And I saw somebody say like, oh, there's that song from Tick Tock. And I was like, I'm gonna build a power armor suit and just kick you into the moon, because it's not okay. But I actually should return to our topic at hand. This is a this is a problem with the pediatric disability spaces, you'll find like that same girl, I was thinking of the 17 year old girl. They were still playing like, you know, Peppa Pig stuff and ran and Rescue Rangers or whatever. And it's like, let's go 17 minutes probably wants to be watching. Like, I don't know, 70 Oh, she's almost rated are like give her give her something developmentally appropriate. Right? Wow, this is a Is it just the Peppa Pig part? And it will go back to the actual augmented reality? Was that by choice? Or was because the interface she had? I yeah, I think it was I mean, I mean, it was a mixture, right. So the, the, the interface that she had that was built, particularly back then they were kind of clunky, like he almost had to be a programmer to use it. Yeah, to make changes to the overall layout. Now it's a lot more liking drag and drop, like, you know, traditional or modern design. And so once it got configured, it was the challenge to sort of get new music or new pictures in there. But then Part two is that, you know, she listened to it, it would it would calm her down, you know, she sort of chill out, you know, which is true for me too. If I listen to like that. What does that rappy song about the watermelon, by the sea, or whatever. That why the magic drag. Like, I mean, you know, I like it makes me a little happy. I'm like, I remember being a kid, like, that's fine. But, you know, that's, but you know, part of the goal here too, is that, you know, for the longest time students, you know, in like high school or whatever that, you know, might be perfectly like, like CP again, I'll go back to you, but there might be no cognitive impairment, and yet they have to carry in this like nuclear football briefcase with them and put it down and set it up and communicate. Nobody wants to be that kid, right? Not everybody wants to be the kid that gets to use the iPad in class. And, you know, and and then and then by extension, you also want to be sort of mirroring your peers behavior, you know, listening to the same music, watching the same movies, all that sort of stuff. These are these skinny these kids and these adults are no different from you or I it's just that they have custom built bodies as we like to put it. Not necessarily a bad thing, even though that sounds actually kind of that weird. Cool. I'd like to be a cyborg too. Yeah, I know. I've been telling people I be the first is what I once I share your thing about the anesthesia. But once once we once I feel comfortable, I'll do all kinds of stuff. I can I can live with the cyberpunk future minus the dystopia. Yeah, yeah, I would say you get one or the one with the other, you don't get the one, but not the other. Right. And, you know, the biggest like implantation stuff that is most successful right now and is really well accepted in the medical community is stuff like that you didn't do like need to live like like hardy implants, you know, certain stuff for the lungs. And it wouldn't surprise me at all if especially with what's going on with pollution and the climate that you know, some of the first augmentations we see are like half of filters in your lungs. It may not be as visible as a robot arm. Or with CRISPR. We might it will take us a couple generations but also just we change ourselves to be more adapted to whatever Yep, Yeah, that too. Yeah, I was gonna say that's whole ethical. That's a whole episode right there. But But yeah, back to the foot, the foot example, you know, I mean, it takes time for, for humans or for plants for that matter to adapt to new environments or whatever, but like, you know, on the one hand we've got way tastier and will weigh more varieties of apples and tomatoes, then, you know, that our ancestors ever did because of GMO. On the other hand, we only have one remaining kind of banana because of GMO. And because everyone liked the one. And, you know, God forbid, there's some disease that it's that then we are banana lists, which is actually fine with names that we had, that's a big staple for a lot of people is eating bananas, even though it's a curvy sugary mess. Right. Right. Right. And so we wouldn't want to put ourselves in the situation is, you know, you know, as a race where we're, you know, sort of like sharing the same strengths and the same weaknesses. Right. I think that there's a great, great, you know, value and then perseverance and diversity. There, you know, like, like, like, the healthiest dogs are always months, right. Not the not the purebred. Yes. Yes. Yeah, actually, I have a purebred little guy for my dad. And he's, since day one. He's had hip problems, lung problems, this problem, the little one that's crossed rated frickin the healthiest little thing ever. Yeah, yep. Yeah, the cat I was just talking about He's like, 18. And I don't think he's ever ever going to die. Yeah, well, I but he looks just like, I don't know, he wants like a cat. Like, there's no leg, lumpiness or flat face or, you know, he's not gonna win any awards. He does. He's a cat. So, anyway, this conversation. I don't know if it's off the rails or on the rails or a different set of rails, but I'm enjoying it. I like it, too. That's why I haven't changed anything. I was just like, we're gonna go down this at Nevermind. But actually, this is this pullback for the AR for the you. Were talking about the different interfaces for the people. But so and you were hinting like multiple years, if you do the hardest case, then it's easier to make it easier. Would you say someone like us like just pure laziness, comfort? We just like he said, look at the light turn it off. Because my light to smart light, I can turn off as I want. Because that was actually I was thinking about that as you're going it's like what if you have the like the TP link smart power brick on your wall? So you could you could literally go in and turn on and off. There's just suddenly it's like the Wow, there really is a lot of I'm looking at my wall. I don't need to sorry. Yeah. But it's there's so many applications now that once you mentioned that, I'm like, wow. So what are some other applications just you thinking about that could be implemented? Oh, man, well, thermostat would be a big one. There's there's actually a story in New York Times recently about a woman with ALS who got a divorce from her husband, because he wouldn't turn the fan on and off when she asked for it. Or at least that was the you know, I'm sure there was more to it than that, but that's what they said. And I was thinking like, I could have saved that marriage. Like, we could totally do these things. But I mean, that it's a really interesting question, right? Especially as everything, everything becomes smart, you know, like, smart, microwave smart, you know, they, I just saw that Amazon has smart count shelves for your counters now that away your food, and like when it runs low, you know, which I will restrain my comments on that one. But, um, but, I mean, I think there's a ton of possibility, I do think that it's also you know, I don't I like I know that I can't sit here and come up with every one of them, right? Like I wouldn't be I'll be really interested to see what what people come up with. But in, in sort of our world, if we're going back to your glasses idea of like, if you had glasses with, with like a LIDAR camera on it, which is that's this, that's the type of camera that like Tesla's used to navigate, you know, it's like a sonar kind of thing, where you can, like, you know, interpret your environment, those sorts of things, you know, paired with now what they call computer vision, which is really cheap to implement, either through Google or Microsoft. I mean, you could look around your room and if you go to that, again, the website one cognition, comm, we have some some simulations of what it would be like to look around your house and you know, see, like, sort of a little circle around the lightbulb. And then like, you know, the TV is clearly acting activatable and you can then change the channels and those sorts of things. And, and this is not sci fi like that. That is very much. I think, today. Yeah. I think that the next hurdle is going to be If you know for for folks like you and me, if we can figure out a way to sort of activate that hands free without without the brain computer interface, then that's great. But then what's the difference between that and just talking to Alexa? Right? Yeah. You know, so we would want that other, that other piece, you know, the being able to sense the sort of like intentionality. And so it's just a matter of time, like all of this stuff. All these technologies, like I bought it, I bought our new TV the other day, there's $139. And it was like 32 inches. And like, I remember, I sold TVs at Circuit City in like, 1998. And they were like, seven grand, like, what the heck happened, like? And my point is, like, all of this, all this stuff becomes commodified. Like I fully expect brain computer interfaces to, to be ubiquitous in 10 years. And it's interesting to me that the first place that seems to be happening is in like the meditation. Like realm, you know, that's true. Yeah. Yeah, I just think about it. I would never thought of that direction for it. But yeah, yeah, I wouldn't. I wouldn't either. But it also, frankly, it's it's kind of in, I don't want to call it easy, but it's a lot easier to sense. Sort of overall calming of the electrical activity in the brain than it is to seek out a single signal. So that's probably part of it. But But yeah, I've got one of those news things. It's pretty cool. I don't know. He told me I was calling and I was calling so it's right. Correlation works. Okay. Yeah, exactly. I'll take it. Yeah. So for the interfaces that you have. Because we were talking about the different applications. By the way, I'll send you an email for all your different links and stuff. You have a messenger messenger. Wow, I can't talk for some reason. Oh, give you a speech therapist. I know. Okay, next. Just my brain goes way too fast. For the different interfaces and interactions, when like we were just saying to getting cheaper. Do you think one thing I've been hearing on my tech stuff? And I actually kind of agree, do you think eventually we'll get to a contact lens? Not even glasses? Yep. Yep. And there's there's labs already working on it actually, that they've got a well, with rats. Anyway, they've got these 16 pixel bionic sort of contact lenses that are that have some of the same activation quality? So yes, we could absolutely get there. I mean, the other thing to keep in mind is that, you know, I'm working in private industry, you know, Ilan is working in private industry, there's a couple of a handful of other companies. I mean, we there's probably maybe five competitors, sort of in this space. nobody's doing the AR VR. But, but you know, who I know, for a fact is doing that is NASA and the military, right? If you're, you know, flying a fighter jet, you only got two hands. And you know, if you're able to look over at the enemy, and sort of like, target them with a brain computer interface, and launch a missile or whatever, that has enormous value for them, so a lot of us in the industry have sort of signed a pledge not not not to endorse the military stuff, but um, you know, there's so many different things. I mean, heck, Velcro came out of NASA, right? I mean, there's duct tape to and super glue. Yeah. And, uh, what was it? Boy, ballpoint pens, I think was that and I think baby food also. Oh, really? babies in space? No, no. I think it was, I think it was a recipe for the astronauts for food. It was try you only had water kind of thing and just shake. But it just turned out though. So nutritious. That actually was it kind of just indirectly became baby food. Interesting. Okay. Yeah, that reminds me that astronaut ice cream stuff. The freeze dried powdery but yeah. But, but right. So I mean, that's an area that, you know, we don't have a lot of insight into, nor do I necessarily want to, but I, you know, that's another place that drives a lot of innovation. So, so again, we're starting with this, you know, this this disability use cases is this is arguably the most underserved population in the world. And, you know, doing are doing our best to serve that and then we'll see where it generalizes from there. But there are a you know, I guarantee there's other folks working on similar ideas. Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's the moment also like we were saying, we don't want the military involved. It's the the devil could help you but also ruin everything you do. Because he would give you all the funding you need, but then it's like the at what cost and we just do this for Yeah, it's like the, you know, the whole we take take bad money and put it towards good kind of thing, which is what Oppenheimer was trying to do. And then he was like, Well, I have destroyed the world. Yeah. I mean, it's it's interesting. It's, it's, it's a, it's a morally challenging question, right, because there's also the argument that, if not us, then someone will write. And the fact that we, you know, have the technology has progressed to a point that we, as a startup, as a relatively small team have managed to get this thing working. And we have some very talented people don't get me wrong, but I, you know, it's it's not, it's not replicable. So, so. So yeah, it's gonna be really interesting to watch. Yes, sir. My hope, you know, another another application that I see probably coming to light, even sooner than later is, is gaming, you know, especially when you think about the VR AR stuff, where you already have the, you know, sort of the straps and the positioning that you'd already need. So once those price points come down, I think that would be pretty cool. maybe be able to, you know, be controlling a character in handling something else completely different with BCI. That's true. And then yeah, there's some there's some startups also working on the interface where you walk, and the treadmill keeps up with you. So even if you randomly switch, it can keep up with you. Yeah, I would wanted to try one of those. Yeah, I would, too. Oh, my God. And you know, that would be the greatest thing, because then you can actually get gamers in shape. Because they have to move. Yeah. Yeah. There is, I saw something like that. It was it was not like a peloton or whatever. But it was like a treadmill where it like, you know, there was like a, it was like a Mario Kart almost kind of display where you had to, like, run through whatever. I was like, I could do that. I could, I could totally do that. Yeah, add that into your current project with your startup. And they're good to go. Yeah, exactly. A little exercise. Yeah. Well, and actually, that brings up one other point of like, dysfunctional utility, right? I mean, if we're talking about people with, with dementia, with with aphasia, or any kind of cognitive impairment pull up an overlay of the map home, right, you know, or, I mean, we have fault detection on this thing, too. So, I mean, if it hits the ground real hard, it's going to notify, you know, your emergency contacts and those sorts of things. So, I mean, Sky's sky's the limit? Right. And, you know, like, like I said, at the beginning, I think that the AR VR industry has been a really strong one that's had a poverty of content. And, you know, I think companies like Valve are starting to change that. You know, I know. Certainly, unity, is doing a good job with that sort of stuff. So. But, you know, it's not always for everybody. I mean, my CEO of our company, who's, you know, obviously, the person who's like proselytizing AR VR for this population. He doesn't like using his Oculus, because he feels like it's too isolating of an experience. Like he's like, in the room with his kids, but he can't see him. He can't be there. Right. So that's, that's one of the motivations for the mixed reality. Right? So you're still there and involved. But, but I can, I can totally see some cool game where, like, you know, I think they have something like this where like, the one person has the view of the bomb, and like, everyone else has the instructions of how to defuse it. And you have to, like, describe that that would be an interesting game. I know. There's some where for the AR VR aspects, at least I think it's PlayStation has done this well, is you're still using your controller, but your screen is not locked in front of you. So if you can actually look to your right, and you'll actually see what's to your right, sorry, I'm looking to my left. It's that look right from the camera. Oh, good. I did camera, right. So yeah, it's just that one because of one of my buddies having tried, I think was like call duty at the time. And it was just one of those I would patchouli. Like my heart rate really kicked up because of it. He had the really noise cancelling loud bass ones. headphones. Oh, right. Right. So you're totally immersed? Yeah, there was no alterations and so I looked at heard a thing whizzed past me, and I looked straight cuz I'm like, Oh, god, it's coming from me. Yeah, I mean, I had a I have one of those PS years. I gotta use that more often. Because they sort of the the age quickly. I didn't like, like any game system, you know. So like, my suspension of disbelief is like a little bit lower than it used to be. But why, you know, one of the only movies that was ever filmed in an AR VR context was the Martian with a Mr. demon. And so I rented it for 30 bucks or something ridiculous on Oculus and and I watched like the first 10 minutes of it and I went to take a break and got up and just like my legs just stopped working. I just was like, flop. I was like, Oh, right, like I mean, I mean, the real world again, you know, so it's another thing we need to be conscious of is maintaining some perception of your environment. Well, I mean, just with the 3d cameras getting cheaper and cheaper and more and more quality, I mean, just your aspect alone, you he could just be talking and kind of like VR chat to computer game, you just look, you know, full on just game playing around while you're watching the person. Yep, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Or going back to our use case. Like, I mean, again, think about the girl with Rett Syndrome. Like, how often has she, you know, been able to go on a rollercoaster ride, or you're rescued zombies. I guess not many of us have been able to shoot zombies in real life. But yeah, anyway, point being. There's, there's a lot more to life than just than just communication. But it's, it's a, it's a powerful place to start. I mean, it's very fundamental level communication is how you can it's how you impacted how you control your environment. You know, we want to make sure, you know, everybody has has access to that. And it's, it's a long road, you know, I mean, I said it was like something like 7% of the United States, it's like under 1% worldwide, people that that have access to this, but you know, the, the growing ubiquity of things like multi touch tablets, you know, cheap Android, things like that. It's going to open up a lot of possibilities. It is and it's going to be an interesting but good world to be in. Yeah, right. That's a good way to put it interesting, but good. When I mean, that was CS Lewis said like, the greatest Curse of all time is May you live in interesting times. And that was 2020 I think so. I'll take you good. Interesting. Yeah, it's a it's not a trash fire over here that COVID COVID Oh, you cute account because you just mentioned earlier you came to California five months ago. Do you keep in the heat of everything I did, I we waited so I was in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. For for my previous company that I worked for called Tobii Dynavox, which is an eye tracking. A lot of people are familiar with Toby from video game, my tracking but a week we had like a brief window where we went to like, you know, fuchsia, or whatever the colors are that everyone's using and just triple mast and got on the plane and had our stuff shipped in one of those pod containers and came to California and then it was kind of lucky because about three weeks later California completely shut down. So we've been lucky we've completely escaped all of it. But we you know, we're definitely living indoors. But I you know, is interesting because in in Pittsburgh, it's like I couldn't just go walk around the streets because we're in the middle of his big city. Like, you know, there's there's nothing, there's nothing open, there's nothing to go see. But here I've got I've got like the beach like two blocks away, and there's nobody there. So I can go do things. But from what I see, you know, the vaccination stuff is lowering. You know that we seem to be having a positive effect. And so that's, that's great. Well, it's also everyone's actually wearing their masks like I actually got COVID back in December. But the only reason I got it was because the people that were affected didn't wear it. I think some jury sneezed and put his hand on the clock out thing, but I'm just being extra on that one. Oh, this is this isn't the grocery store. Yeah. Yeah, that's all I gotta say. That's Those are my most harrowing experiences. When I go to the grocery store. I'm always like, get away from my those are those are my oranges. three feet. jeric But uh, yeah, I don't see an immediate COVID application for the wearable although there are who wasn't there was somebody recently who came out with that, that ring I forget the name of the brand, but that supposedly could go and do otu detection and things like that. But also apples done the Ot o to detection in the watch now to it's like two three. Yeah, yeah. And I know with things is coming out with one, two, I said, the Apple Watch. As great as their design is in every other way. I just don't love them. I do a little bricks, LSA but it also bugs me that I paid more than potentially more than my phone because I got the google pixel. So it's like 300 bucks, paid more than my phone. It's on my wrist. And I have to actually think about where to put my hand or I'm gonna break my $800 device. Yeah, if you don't have the little screen protectors for the route see my my dumb luck because I bought a Garmin vivoactive back when they were making it maybe they still do. I can't find it. But I went and I put my hand into the drawer and it's just sliced it on my hand. And I said, Ah, I was like 300 bucks. I just broke right there. Yeah, I just I just have basically this is the mean that's technically a smartwatch. This isn't a big one. But I broke it a couple of those but See, this is another good example like and if you told everybody 10 years ago, they'd be wearing these biometric monitoring devices. Yeah, they think you're not, you know, and I love now what I'm hearing, you know, the vaccines are gonna put microchips and everyone says that the government can track you. And it's like, have you heard of a driver's license? Have you heard of a cell phone? They don't need a car. Maybe they got your picture, they got it? Okay, nobody really cares that much. It's too normal. It's been around long enough. It's not like it's the new kind of thing. Right. Right. And I think what you described in terms of getting to the point of like, typical looking glasses, I mean, that might be the tipping point for for BCI. I mean, our system again, it will also email you the address to put in the notes, but it does. I mean, it looks cool. It's a slick design. But it does it you know, it looks like an AR VR headset. But I will say that the lens portion is detachable and replaceable. In case you get it sliced off by a drawer. Although I don't really put your head you know, I was the first question Why are you putting your head in there? For your factory? Like why the hell do you please head in the drawer? That'd be a nice support ticket. Report hidden drawer. What do we do? Well, is it been great, thanks for your time. Thank you. I mean, that was just kind of a fun conversation, I guess, as a reminder. And we made a brain computer interface, they are one.cognition.com, we'll get the step up there. But, you know, this, this was a lot of fun, just because it also, you know, anytime you being first to market, it's kind of scary, you know, in some ways, but but it allows it really provokes these fascinating conversations, right? Because then you get to think about, like, you know, what's the next step? And what's the step after that, you know, there's, in in informatics, there's this idea of first, second and third horizon. And like, the fuzzy like, first horizon planning is like what I'm doing today, like, okay, like, I'm on a podcast, I've got two meetings, right. Second, horizon planning is like the other stuff on my calendar and things I can do risk management about, or whatever. And then the third horizon is like, over the hill, it's like, I don't know, like, you know, there's no way to risk manage for what's going to happen there. And I really, like operating in the third horizon mentality, like, you know, trying to, like, just speculate, you know, what's, what is the world going to be like, in 20 years? And, and, you know, 20 years ago, I think we thought it was gonna be flying cars, but in retrospect, we would crash the heck out of those things. So, you know, there's technology comes into play. Obviously, there's a whole that could be a podcast in and of itself, because it's like, we can't drive ground cars. So why do we expect us to handle a fort? like three dimensional driving now? Yeah, no, I can't handle I I like to say that I put my last car in airplane mode, because I drove it off Eclipse stick on stylistically? Well, it's like a 10 foot cliff. Okay. But it's still it's more of a scarf meant at that point, I think. But yeah, so um, so I but I'd love to hear from anybody who's interested. Again, we're, we're, we're gonna be watching this in the next few months. I would love to hear from folks that have some ideas of other applications, or maybe even have the capacity to do some gaming, some web kid stuff. Our application for an end is all built in unity. That helps anyone. And you can you can get a hold of me at Lucas Luke stuber.com. But I'll send over links and yeah, I'm just glad you had me this is this was a ton of fun. It was a ton of fun. Just quick add on or so just you What sir, do you like would you are you active on Twitter, Instagram kind of thing? I don't know. I don't Instagrams. I think I stood a few grams. Twitter, Twitter, I'm Luke SLP. l UK e SLP. But most active if you if you look, if you go to my website, Luke Stewart calm which is L UK, e s, t u v, er, calm. It'll link to all the different social media. I would say that most of my contents on Facebook because I'm old. Okay, fair enough. All right. But uh, and oh, and I and there's I have a book coming out in two weeks. I'm supposed to mention that. Oh, my gosh, you want to go an extra 20 just talking about that? No, I died. But it's just called becoming an exceptional ACX leader. And it's an anthology. It's like 15 of us. There's probably like maybe 700 to 1000 people in the world to do this job. So like, we all kind of know each other. And so we wrote chapters about sort of how we got into this and in my mind is about imposter syndrome. So, anyway, it's, it'll be on Kindle and all those other things. But yeah, it is. And I guess a final note on my end is to say we, we could use more like we need, we need more people that are interested in this. And also, we need, frankly, more men. This is, you know, only 3% of speech pathologists are men, which is one of those crazy genders skews in the other direction that you don't hear about. And so right. You know, if anybody's interested in learning more about the profession and assistive technology and rehabilitation engineering, it's it's incredibly rewarding. I mean, I get up every day, just super excited about what I do. And when you have those aha moments with, you know, someone who's never had the ability to do something before they suddenly can like, it's, you know, it's, it's life changing. It really is. Yeah, I used to teach martial arts and it was the moment the kid figured out, it's simple as like, just how to pump punch correctly. Just the way their eyes light up. It's Yeah, so worth it. You can wait two hours of pain, but like that moment, wipes all of it away. Yep, yep, exactly. Yeah. Although I haven't ever had that moment of functioning correctly. Well, I got to work on that one. Yeah. Martial Arts is like a lot of things. It's better when you go in person, and try to do it automatic because somehow with humans, I can't figure out through this. Maybe you could do it and we got to go. The the actual seeing a person, the actual interactions, you can see it. But when you're on like a zoom call or an AR, you can't see how far off they are. You can say doing the general move. We can't actually like, I don't know if it's interesting. I hadn't thought about that martial arts having to do virtual. My instructor had to do it for a long time. And he's like, everyone's forms went bad because they weren't in person. I couldn't hear if they were off by 20 degrees, but it looked correct on my side. Right, right. Interesting. It's, my wife's been doing like some virtual yoga sort of stuff. And I imagine that's a lot easier than than martial arts, but generally, general form, you get like wizards warrior, and all that. It's you as long as you do it enough. You'll know like, Okay, I need to do this one now kind of thing. But like martial arts, even for me, I'm a black belt. If I just like this, that looks like a punch, but that's actually wrong. You're supposed to be here. Really? Okay. This explains why I could never beat that guy in we sports. Yeah, well, no, that one just punch as fast as you possibly can. Yeah. All right, I've got I have my plan for the for the wearable. Right. Next to have. Alright, thank you. We definitely have to get you on in the future just for even an update. Yeah, absolutely. Love to, you know, we should have this thing out in a few months. And I mean, I you know, if we weren't just audio I'd be happy to put went on but I'll send you the links folks can go, go check it out, see some simulations and, you know, put your name on a list if you want to learn more awesome, but exciting stuff. Thanks for having me, and I'll talk to you again. Talk to you soon. Bye bye. Cheers.