Ken Kerry

Today on the show, we have Ken Kerry, An absolute Blast and humble guy. we go into marketing, some fun stories of Kens and some very useful tips and advice. On the nuts and bolts of marketing and advertising.

 https://www.linkedin.com/in/kenkerry/
www.scripttoscreen.com

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Welcome to the Josh Bolton show where we dive interesting and inspiring conversations. And now your host, Josh Bolton. It's good to be here, Josh. I'm Ken Carey. I'm the co founder and executive creative director of scripted screen. We are the largest privately held direct to consumer agency in the country. We work with big brands, small brands, all the way to the biggest brands in the world. And we have generated over $7 billion dollars in sales for our clients. I'm also a speaker and an author. And I'm excited to be here. absolute honor. Thank you, Ken. For those who weren't listening earlier, we had a bit of a couple of technical difficulties. It was a bit amusing. So Ken, I was listening, doing some of my Frank would send me all the stuff about you. So tell me first you're up and coming story, how you got to where you are? Well, that's a big one. So I'll give you the nickel tour. Okay. So, you know, I my started my career in sports television. Okay, I worked for ABC Sports. And I was an associate producer. And at that time, my desire was to be a director in direct live football, dance for money, like football and all those types of things. And I did a lot of that in college, I did a lot of directing. And at that time, there was only three games being televised on the weekends. And those were the three big networks. And I was young. And they said, you know, great, love your enthusiasm. But you know, somebody is either going to have to die. Or there's going to be nepotism involved. And you may get an opportunity in 20 years. Well, I don't, I didn't have that kind of patience. So I started thinking about what I'm going to do so. So at that time, I had, I had met my wife, who's today she was my girlfriend, and she was she was the the field reporter for sports in Los Angeles. And she was kind of doing finished doing her thing in sports television, she was kind of over that. So we decided, at that time, when we were dating was late at night, we'd see these CD shows on television that were infomercial, right? And we'd hear about how well they'd be doing and people selling products and services. And we were always very entrepreneur stick. So we said, well, we produce network television, we can do that. Right? So we gathered up some money, and we gathered up some investors, and we printed own product. And we did our own infomercial and bought our own media did everything and launched it and it bombed. But what came of that was the ability to continue to refine and refine and refine and success, failures, attacks, failure and try to figure out a formula, what made it work. So we were able to do that. We were able to pay back our investors, we were able to get whole. And literally Josh, out of the blue, somebody saw one of our shows, it had our phone number on the end of it and said and called us and said, We'd like you to produce a show for us. Well, at that time, it was just my wife and I so of course, I put them on hold and said let me let me talk to marketing, right. I said, Okay, what do you think? And and we said, Sure, we'll we'll, we'll do that. So that's how it started. And that's how we started with the clients. And that was a very, very successful program called Hooked on Phonics, which was a reading program. And it did tremendous business and that was really the launch of our business of direct to consumer. And, you know, 35 years later we've we work with the biggest brands in the world and, and are creating those channels for those big businesses today, especially in the world today where retail and and all types of forms of distribution is so fractured, there's no more important time or important good time to create direct skew in the channels for for businesses. So that's how we got started. And we've done a lot a lot of campaigns and that's how that's where we are here today. That's awesome. So I know this but I want to eventually get to is what are some of your big clients that you've worked with and specifically what did they have you do with that? So okay, big clients, Amazon Keurig Hoover, shark Ninja, AAA L'Oreal bad stuff hauled name brand stuff, you know, eugenics if you if you're, you know, watching any sports television or any ESPN, you see eugenics commercials with Frank Thomas. So all big brains So, so what they do, it's different how they come to us, they either come to us where they have a direct to consumer channel, and they want to grow it, they want to scale it, and or a company comes to us and says, we need to develop a direct to consumer channel, we don't know how to do it, and marry you to create it for us. And that means television, that means radio, that means digital, it means social, it means everything from very the beginning all the way to the last touch consumer, you know, the last mile the consumer touch. So it's a it's a, it's a combination, but mostly the big brands come to us and say, we have to have a direct to consumer channel, because the retail world today is so fractured, we have to start controlling our customer. And that's how it starts. And that's what we do for our clients. So that's so many name brands, I'm trying to think of different questions for each one. But there's no way I could think of them all. I could I could help you with one with with like, like Amazon, Amazon bought a company called blink. Now blink is owned, is a brand underneath the ring, which is all owned by Amazon. Okay, right. So here's Amazon, the biggest marketer, the biggest, you know, digital marketer in the world. And you would think that they know how to build a direct to consumer channel that you'd think they would know, the distribution, how to make a funnel from a television to a website to convert it to a sale, and to have that customer relationship, you would think they would know how to do that really well. Yeah, well, they thought they could. And then we, we, as we started working with them, we had to show them the nuances between what they do and what we do. And so we're, they're a client now going on for the fourth year. And we handle everything, we handle all their distribution, we handle all their front end marketing, their digital marketing for this specific product called blank. So, you know, that's a, that's a very unique situation where we have a company like them, where I got Alexa talking to me, sorry about that. He said, Amazon, that's a pickup. Yeah, right. Go figure. So, so. So you'd think, again, that's what you think Amazon would be able to do all that. So they came to us to build that channel, and four years later has been extremely successful. And we continue to take that on to the Alexa brand. And, you know, the whole ecosystem for you know, you know, voice activation and you know, security for them. So it's interesting. So for Lister with just the original break, you said the front end and back end to the marketing, what is how does you break that down? Okay, so the front end, the front end, is that consumer facing? Right? So depending on who your market is, are they on television? Where are they on television, in terms of demographics, so that would be fronting. So we would create either a 32nd 62nd or two minute commercial or in some cases, a 30 minute infomercial. And that would go on linear television, we would do about, you know, a few 62nd commercials and that would be Ott are connected. And then we will do 15 and 32nd spots, and you know, display and all that on digital. And then we would do social media ads. So all that space, that's that's consumer facing or front end. So I have to we create a message that gets your attention that makes you want to learn more about this product. And then you click whatever it is that you do. And then you go into this sales page, which is the microsite, which is you know, where the transaction happens, and we take you through that process of purchasing it. Now, that's the front end. The back end now is we have to figure out where that consumer came from. How do we how do we add attributes where they came from? Did they come from television, digital, social, where do they come from? And then we have to amortize that and say, okay, where are the best media dollars spent? Because we're always design we're always designing a program that's going to scale a business. And then we advise our clients this reinvest in these areas, because we've done all the backend analytics and data, we know where the best dollars are spent. And then it grows from there. So everything from making the front end commercial that wants you to learn more about it all the way to the back end analytics, and the distribution of media to scale the business. So you essentially just doing all the marketing for them, pretty much when they just they hand you the check and be like, Alright, thank you very much. Yeah, pretty much. But you know, it's, it's, it's, it's what's so interesting is a company like Amazon is they're so open to learning new things and to to to look at things that they don't know. So that's what makes it great. But yeah, when it comes to direct to consumer, for the for the blink brand, they basically let us run the whole thing. It's less work for them. As long as you get a result. Yeah, that's more work for them. And, you know, it's less for them to think about it. What would it take them to learn this? What would the opportunity cost be by potentially messing up? And where does it take their attention away from their core business? Right? So when you do that risk reward, it makes a lot more sense to partner with professionals and experts that do it? It really does. Yeah, so I'm curious, you mentioned something earlier that it got my attention is how to get someone's attention. And 60 seconds or less? What is some of the tricks? You know, that works? Well, it really depends on the platform, Josh television is different than digital is different than social. So for example, when let's talk about, let's talk about blink. Okay, one of the things that we did to get someone's attention was that, at the very beginning of our show, we talked about, we had actual testimonials, people who've used the product, it's very integral in their daily life. And they talk about what they went through and how the blink camera system solved an issue that they had. And it's very tense, because when you're talking about Home Security, right, you're talking about cars being broken in houses being broken in fires on your property that you didn't know about. Those are very empathetic and, and pain points that people have that they don't necessarily have a solution to. So we tease the audience with this happened to me, but this product helped me this happened to me, but this product helped me kind of problem solution problem solution. But we do that with testimonials. If we have a big celebrity involved, we will use a celebrity at the very beginning, very beginning for that hook that's going to get someone's attention that's going to want to know, you know, for example, we talked to a product like total Jim, the celebrity we use Chuck Norris and Christie Brinkley. People want to know what Chuck Norris is using. It's at 77 years old, and he's in that he's that fit. What does that dude use it? Right? Why is Chris Brinkley look so beautiful? at her age. So we use a testimonial, we use a celebrity. And sometimes we use statistics. But those are those are two of the best ways to get a consumers attention. And because if you don't get their attention, it doesn't matter. Right? Doesn't matter how big your selling point is after that, if you don't get them to stop, stop the scroll, whatever it is, that matters. So that's definitely worse for TV. What about let's say, social media, YouTube or like Instagram? What are some of the tactics you would implement? Because that's a very different game. And so absolutely, absolutely when it comes to YouTube, because you're retargeting a specific audience who has as has an interest in you somehow, some way? Okay, you would be specific to their pain point that you know, that that consumers having because they've already said, they like what you do, or they're interested in what you have. Sometimes that's a very catchy headline. on YouTube, you have that much that much time. You think about YouTube as a search engine. It's really the lard the second largest search engine, and people say how to or, or what, you know that those are the kind of questions are coming. So you have to think strategically. If it is home security, people are going to say, what is the best home security, how to protect your home. Those are the things that people are thinking. So those are the things that you want to loot using your hook, because that's already top of mind. Same thing with social media, Instagrams a little bit different. You want to be more visual there. You want to be more visually arresting because that's a visual platform. Facebook is a little bit differently. It's much more community. involved. So you want a bit more of a community message. So you have to be contextual, to the platform that you're on. Okay. But a universal tactic for marketing is, it sounds vulgar, saying it this way is intentionally being loud or sending an abrupt movements to catch the attention. A universal, I would say a universal way to catch people's attention is to expose the problem that they're having insolvent immediately. Okay. So let's take, for example, new genix, that's focused on men over 50. The problem they're having is energy drive, those types of things. As you get older, your testosterone levels go down. And that affects the whatever, you know that it affects your physical, you know, well being what you do. So we go right at it with are you? Are you losing energy? Are you losing that drive? Are you? Are you just not the guy you used to be? That is we directly one of the pain point, which is the problem and say, and then we once we went through it, we get that consumer going, yep, that's me, I understand that, then we solve it. Well, you need this product, because of this reason. That's a universal way that has worked over and over again. But that changes as campaigns mature and brands that should mature. Right? Yeah, then there's not one thing that can work forever. You right? In the beginning, when you're like a startup, you want to get as much attention as possible. So maybe a little more edgy than you would, but once you're more refined product, then you refine your marketing kind of thing. Right. Right. But in but specific to your question, Josh, a universal tactic is expose the problem and give them the solution. Experts. Sorry, I'm just gonna write that down. Sure. That's, I have to agree because there's, there's many times I've bought stuff, mainly because they did they expose the problem? Or within 15 seconds, they also had the answer, and it didn't feel like it was a weird runaway tangent. Right? Right. We want instant gratification. If you understand what my problem is, and you have a solution, you got my attention. If you understand my problem, and you don't give me a reason to believe about your solution, I'm gone. Right? So being the marketer, and online, and TV and all that, what is the biggest trend you see happening in the market in general. So the biggest trend that's happening, and it's something that I really am passionate about, and I speak about, is this review based economy that we live in. We live in a time where people make decisions, based off other people's opinions more than anything else, think about. When you want to buy appliance, what do you do? You look for review. When you're going to make reservations? What do you do? You go on Yelp and see what people are saying, when you want to go see a movie or something like that? What do you do you go look at Rotten Tomatoes, and what people say. Right, and it's very interesting, because you know, 95% of consumers and this is not my opinions is from HubSpot, which is a very, very credible CRM, and 90% 95% of consumers review. A LOOK AT A review first before they purchase or engage. And 97% of those people say that the review influenced their decision decision to purchase. Those are major statistics that say, That's how important reviews are. And you can say it's a trend joshan it is, but it's really back. It's not theory. It's not my opinion. It's back. And like I said, from the beginning, we built the business on that we've built a 35 year business on the power of a review based economy, whether it's testimonials or or credibility from experts. People want to know what other people think what other people do before they make a decision. And then, and then at that point, if you give them the right information, they'll make the decision for themselves. But people are sheep. They want to know what works first, before they're going to spend their time and effort and energy doing it because our time today is so fractured, and that's not getting that's not getting better, Josh, it's getting more and more fractured every year. So that's the that's the bass This way into getting somebody to say, getting somebody to a consideration to your product or services what other people say. So then the what I've noticed in general you probably could attest to this is the the influencer of like YouTube and Instagram where it's like the I vouch for this, even though I'm paid, it's like I truly do care about this product. That is the better newer trend to go with. Yeah, influencer marketing is good. It's not the end all it's very small. It's very, very small to you know who you're going after. But to its core, Josh, that is somebody, somebody's opinion based on their experience that is going to influence you to do something, whether that is your neighbor, Josh, or whether it is an influencer, whether it's a celebrity, whether it's somebody randomly, you don't even know. But they said, Hey, listen, I had this pain in my elbow forever. I tried everything, but I use this acne ointment, and it made a difference. And if that person looks like you sounds like you, you're gonna go, sorry, everybody randomly my internet went out. So I'm gonna utilize this moment in gap. Please remember to rate and review on whatever platform you're listening to hit me up on Instagram at JRB AOL to win underdash on Instagram. Again, that's Jr. Bolton underdash at for Instagram. If you have any criticisms, critiques, hit me up. I'm trying to find some good feedback to know where it should take the show or the net, you would go back to the weird awkward gap. I'm back sorry. Okay, that was not me. Right? That was me this time. It literally said your internet went out and like, Oh, crap. It's never done that before. Sorry about that. So I call last you at influencing the elbow cream? Yep. Okay, so. So for example, this is how important, you know, this review based economy or an influence or whatever it is. So let's say I've had this elbow problem forever. And then I see an ad where somebody says, Listen, I've had this elbow problem forever. And I've tried everything, you know, ice packs, therapy, nothing worked. But I tried, you know, x Acme, roll on, and I put it on, it made such a difference. Now I play tennis. Now I do all these things. It's fantastic. That is more powerful than you saying how wonderful your product is, of course, you're going to say that, but somebody else's opinion on how it helped them is a lot more powerful. Now, I always say and we've used this forever, is it your best client and your best customer is your best salesperson, not you as a founder, or an owner or chief marketing officer. You know what, let your customer sell for you because it's more authentic. And it's much more reliable for people who see it and hear it. So that's interesting. I actually had a marketing like zoom call their last, like zoom conference for the pandemic. And as the biggest the one that we're pushing to, like, get used to video because like, just a simple, even if it's visually terrible, just a simple, authentic testimonial is way more powerful than anything else you could have put out. Absolutely. And and, you know, barriers where consumers have been broken down. What I mean by that is, if I just use my phone and create a little video to say, hey, Josh, your shows the best or whatever. And you see me in my environments kind of shaky or whatever. I already know, it's not BS. You know, it's just it's the rawness works. Now in some cases, it doesn't work. But in majority it does work. Right? Because there are certain things you might want to clean it up. Like Yeah, yeah. And when you start talking to a big brand, they want it, they want it at its highest quality, which is totally, totally possible. But the core of it is still authentic. Right instead of like, like you said, holding the phone is a little shaky because our hands move, maybe like use a tripod and just probably not, and maybe a little bit of light. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's awesome, then I'm very curious. What was your method before the internet to market yourself and get No. Was it just strictly word of mouth or? Yeah, yeah, we had. We've been very fortunate. We've had a lot a lot of success with a lot of big clients and, and we would have a reputation and we would always put our logo at the end of our shows and be Because our shows were very successful, they were always on television. And it, that brand identification at the end drove a lot of business. That's how we that's how we really built our business. Because if your show is on the air consistently, that means is meeting the key performance indicators for the client. And they can reinvest. And when you see something over and over again, you know, it's not, you know, a shot in the dark company, you know, these people are, nobody can know what they're doing. Right. Right. Yeah. Then put, especially if they're willing to pay this much money to areas they they must be good if they're doing this. Exactly. Exactly. So then I'm, kind of keep going back to the internet. What is the from the TV, from your original to the internet? Is there key differences mainly? Like tracking? Or is are you wanting with the new age of authenticity and interaction? Are you wanting more like likes and comments kind of thing? Um, so think about, I'm going to just back up a second. So think about, think about. So when I was your age, the distribution channels were the broadcast airwaves. And technology was a broadcast television camera. Today, technologies, the internet. And the broadcast distribution is the internet and social media platforms. Right, right. That's what it is. So in our business, we're all about ROI return on investment, or key performance indicators for the client, they want to know if I'm spending X amount of dollars, I want X amount of dollars back. So I can reinvest and grow this business. So likes and impressions don't mean anything to us. It's all about conversion, how much money that I spend in certain platforms to create an action, which is a conversion, where I have converted, somebody who's interested into actually purchasing that way that tracking Josh specifically says that I spent X amount of dollars on television X amount of dollars on digital X amount of dollars on social. And I know that I got more sales on television. But I got sales on digital, I got sales on social when I aggregate those, that tells me where my comfort level is in reinvesting. So that's the tracking, we're interested in, not about likes and impressions, that doesn't mean anything to us. Interesting. That's really interesting, that might just be more from like, your angle of marketing. Yeah, you're not like trying to make a friend. But the other people I've talked to, it's mainly them behind the camera. So they want interactions and like connections like that. Absolutely. And those are different. Those are different. You know, like I said, they're different KPIs. And, you know, like, to me, doesn't doesn't mean business. It means like, right now, if I'm selling a course, right, and I need to have build an audience, I want people to like it, but it but at the end of the day, if I can't convert the people who like me into purchasing my product, I'm wasting my time. Right. Right. Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah, cuz there was one guy, I just randomly found him on YouTube, I can't find him anymore. Literally, none of his videos get like a ton of likes, maybe like 5020, like comments. But he gets he says, from the 100 viewers, he said, like, I can get 50 buyers for whatever. And he's like, you wouldn't think of YouTube with that many views. It works. But he's like, I don't even care anymore. I know if I get 10. At least five we're gonna sign up doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Because he knows. He knows his what his cost of goods are. He knows what his what his time is worth. And he's already determined that 10 people that buy his product or service is ROI positive to you. So it's not about it's not about how many people you reach. It's about the quality of people that you reach, and what they do. So if he reaches 50 people, and his ROI is 10. And he consistently reaches 10. He's very successful, and he's very happy with that. Because he really targeted Yeah, that he's super niche down. Yeah. So I'm curious for you definitely being a marketer. What do you see for transfer podcast? advertisements switch the question again. What do you see as a marketer for podcast ads? Um, I see that is I see it's good. Okay, good for particular clients. So let's take, let's take an exam. So if I have if I'm a business software CRM, okay. My good podcast for me, would be guy, Roz is how I built this, that would be a good audience for me, because they're business owners, right? How I built this, as is a podcast about interviewing founders of how they started their companies and how they turned them into, you know, mega companies. So that would be good. That's a great place for me to create an ad for my client that has a business software CRM or something like that, because the audience are business people, executives, right. Now, if I'm looking, if I'm looking for audiences of people who are very, very independent, very, very, let's say, fitness oriented, or, you know, when I say, you know, topical, what I mean by topical events, and kind of on the, the, kind of on the outside, if you will, I would be interested in someone like Joe Rogan, or Tim Ferriss, right, because they're just different thinkers, with big audiences that have a very niche. Although Joe is huge now, but he has a very niche audience, right? As you know, he'll have Elan Musk, and then he'll have, you know, some random person from the UFC. Right? You just know that when you go into his shows, right? Right. You're not going to Joe Rogan, because you want to learn the most important business software in the world. You're going there to get entertained. You're going to how I built this because you want to learn something. So podcast advertising is very effective with the right audience. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. That's one of my co workers and my current place. He's a fanatic of Joe Rogan. And he's, he just talks because I do martial arts and he's like, you could be the next Joe Rogan, like, I am not getting proud to get in damn many controversies that he's done. You know, and, you know, but he doesn't give a crap. So he doesn't, and he's built that audience. But you know, he has his, he has his lovers, and he has his haters. So we all do, right. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So for you. What was it like working? We've talked about Amazon and different trends. What were the what was like working with? You said, the shark ninja? Yeah, shark ninja. Yeah. How What was it like working with him? or What did they have? You do? So shark ninja is an appliance company that that basically does. vacuums now getting into housewares. But what's interesting about them, Josh is 10 years ago, this company. We were actually we work with them almost 20 years ago, when it was literally a fold up table in a warehouse in Toronto, Canada, really. And we help them. They came to us to do an infomercial commercials to sell a shark vacuum. That's where it started. It was very, very successful. And they built and built and built and built. They just sold for over a billion dollars last year. So yeah, so So the story with them is they built their brand through direct response marketing. They, they did infomercials and commercials that convinced you and showed you and demonstrated to you why their product is superior to a Dyson or to whatever's out there. And they weren't trying to use equity advertising just to bludgeon you and say, here's my brand, buy it. They used direct response or direct to consumer advertising to say I'm going to show you, I'm going to prove to you it's better, and then I'm going to get you to buy and then that advertising built into retail awareness, which built into amazing Amazon and online sales and Walmart Online Sales and became a very very behemoths company. And within 10 years, they were nowhere on the scale of who in the appliance business, especially vacuums. And now they're probably more than a third of the vacuum sold in this country taking market share away from the big iconic brains. So working with them is, was fantastic because we help them really define their marketing strategy as a company, and help them take over big iconic brands. And now they are, you know, one of the most powerful the largest clients brands in the world. Yeah, I have to create because like, when you say vacuum, I always think of Dyson first, but then sharkninja is like a hard second right there. Yeah, yeah. And, and you know, it. It is funny is that you wouldn't think it's funny, but it is, you know, a lot of people, you can see commercials and directors, consumer marketing, and they're very yelling, sell, right? Yeah, it is the greatest thing in the world, which is clean. Exactly, which is not what we do, which is why it gets a bad rap, which is unfortunate. But, you know, there's billion dollar corporations doing it. So that's kind of a myth. But at the end of the day, Josh, you have to have a good product. If you don't have a good product, all the yellow and sell in the world doesn't make a difference. And that sharkninja made a great product. And they made a great product, affordable. And that could take on a company like Dyson, which is make the great product, but they're two times and three times as expensive. So if you are somebody who wants to go for the look, the feel the brand and feel good about having something more expensive, great. But if you want to have a great product that is better than one of those, and aren't enamored by having a Dyson, you're going to buy something that's more cost effective, and more effective for you. So and that that was that was that was our was always our mission with working with them. What is the story we can tell? That proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, we are better than the highest priced products on the market. And when you get it, you're going to be absolutely satisfied with it. And that's what we've been able to do with them. That's impressive. Yeah, I've just I think about the courses as you explained it, like comparing the two. I always think of the one where they have the obvious and they had to put the little sticker This is the Dyson one this is not. And they're just second up glitter, because that is a real pain to pick up anyways, yeah, glitter, and, you know, pool balls, and all those types of things to prove the power product. And they are more powerful than a 800 $900 Dyson. And you can get this you can get one, a sharkninja for three$400. And it's, it is a good product. And that's and that's why they were able to build their brand because they were able to demonstrate to the audience why they're better. And that's why direct to consumer marketing is so effective, Josh, because you have the time to tell the story, to demonstrate and to validate. In 30 seconds, you cannot do that. You just cannot do that. And that's why direct to consumer marketing is becoming so popular is because products have a story to tell. And if you don't have the hundreds of millions of dollars in your pocket to do brand equity advertising. What's your alternative? You have to have to do something different. Yeah, that's a key point. It's one thing I've noticed, and you've just pointed out at the end is the story. So I'm trying to think of some other brands. I think it was bare mineral you worked with, right? Yeah. So how do you well first What was it like but then how did you craft the story for the makeup line? It's a good question guys. And again, it's a it's here's a company that literally had one retail store in San Francisco, very small. Okay, and made the decision that they're going to go big. Now. They're multi billion dollar company, but we were there from the very beginning. So the story is, they have a mineral makeup at that time. This is 20 years ago. Majority of the makeup for women was a foundation a very heavy kaigi grease formulation. And women use it because they didn't have an alternative, but it had its negative effects. It would make people break out. It was it didn't last, but they didn't have a choice. So the gal Leslie Blodgett who started the company, she came to us and she said, I have to solve, I have a solution for this. It's called mineral makeup, it covers women's, you know, the, for the makeup of their face, it gives them shine, it's very light, it lasts, it has SPF on it, and it's super light. So we so that's what women want. But they're not going to believe you unless you can tell the story and prove it. Okay, so what we did, in the biggest part of that story, Josh was a very, very powerful demonstration. And this is a demonstration after my wife came up with and they took a Kleenex, it took two kleenexes, they put foundation on this Kleenex. And then when you rub the foundation on the Kleenex, it breaks up. It makes the Kleenex almost disintegrate. And women can go weak, that's not good. But then when you take the bare minerals, which is a mineral makeup, very light, and you put it on, it was it had coverage, but the Kleenex was still intact, in fact, and then you could pick the Kleenex up and kind of way that nothing came off. That demonstration was a visual story that women understood. They went, Oh, I want that. I want to try that. And then we we showed women's before and afters, which is part of the story. And of course, Leslie Vosges personal story of why she came up with it because she was frustrated with these types of issues. So a combination of all that is what really launched this product. And now is a huge, huge cosmetic brands around the world. That the Kleenex got me because it's like even though it's not human, you can still be like, Oh, if it's doing that to Kleenex, it might be doing that to my skin to kind of women understood that women understand that. You know, another another example of that Josh would be the ORAC vacuum company, which is 75 year old brand. They wanted to get into air purifiers. Why is a vacuum company get into air purifiers? That's a tough you know, that is it is a tough transition. So they came up with they designed an air purifier and Mr. Orrick who's just a gem of a man 85 years old, still a good friend, and just a master marketer. And he designed a product. And he said, I can't just say I'm David or buy an air purifier that wasn't going to work. Not when you're fighting, Honeywell, and Dyson and all these other big brains, right that are stablished. And here's this vacuum company wanting to make an air purifier. So the story we had to tell was if you cannot move the air in your home, you cannot clean the air in your home. We specifically came up with with that mantra that you have to move the air to clean the air. Okay, that sounds great. Now prove it to me. So we built this, this fiberglass box filled it with smoke, but the air purifier in there instead. And now it's all covered in smoke. You couldn't even see the air purifier in there. It says when I turn this on, it's gonna start moving the air in there, it's going to clean that air. So we did that turned it on. And within 10 seconds it cleared the whole box, plexiglass box, absolute clear. And he said cool. That's my point. If you you have to move the air to clean the air. That one story that one demonstration took a company who had no business being an air purifier business to have an $100 million business in the air purifier business in two years. When did they start? Well, they started this in 95. But but they bear the orc vacuum company was started in the 50s Yeah, those those are a beast of a vacuum. They still work great. But you know it's funny you say that is that when we started with them, right? They were selling a beast of vacuum. And there were so many other vacuums that were so that were so streamlined, if you will. And that's, so they had to take on that issue. It wasn't attractive. It was a beast. But it was lightweight. And it did have a bag. So all the competition at that, at that time was very cool design, very lightweight. And all bagless. Well, that's fine. But that was what we had to take on with this product. So what we did was prove that having a bag is actually better than bagless. Because what people don't know is a bagless vacuum, or a or a gust cup. Right? I've never heard of that. It leaks. Okay, just leaks. And when you empty, it leaks all over the place. And people go, I don't like that about that product. So we had to take so we had to expose that. And we said Why would you do that when you can lift this bag up and throw it away? Why would you want to carry a heavy vacuum and this thing's only eight pounds. So a company that had to had to take on? All these new players into the marketplace had been around for 50 years. I mean, Josh, it was they were teetering on bankruptcy. Yeah, remember that? They were teetering on bankruptcy. And we got together. And I'm not saying we were the solution. But we were a huge part of the solution because we had a very, very tight relationship with Mr. Orrick their entire marketing team and we created very, very deep direct to consumer campaigns and basically, a company that was teetering on bankruptcy ended up selling for several $100,000,000.05 years later. That's awesome. So I'm story that we were able to tell a story is key is what I'm hearing. Yep. Yep. That's awesome. So actually, personal tactical question. When you were working with Auric, when did they introduce the bag? Was it back in the 50s? Or more in the 80s 90s? Or no, it was original, his original design, the bag was original design. Okay. Because I I joked with my old job I was at when I was I was a janitor, we had to vacuum out the school rooms and all that and know how heavy those suckers are there. Rick and that's always a beast of machines it takes it's a full on work on just the work that thing. Yeah, it was the original was from the 50s and why this thing is still running after almost 80 years. Exactly right. And that's that's the point. You know, we had to tell the story of longevity why it goes back to it goes back to this this idea of why are we treating vacuums as a commodity we had we almost in our mind go every three years I needed a vacuum well why right because you're not built well. Well mister or built a product well back in the 50s any bills it well today, and there's no reason that you have to keep buying a vacuum over and over again. So in your personal testament to that thing. It's been around since you were vacuuming in as a janitor. Yeah. And it was the original one they buy like late 70s early 80s when like they finally got a bigger budget to afford it but it was just I was just sitting there going this thing is literally triple my age. I'm like it was one of those a kid randomly brought in the nail just frickin took it in no problems you hear clinking around? Yeah. Do that with a dice and it just did kill it right there. You break the design and seize the motor it was just like my the the guy the head guy that was teaching music next time Don't Don't try to take like a six inch nail just pick it up before you go into the room Josh and Mike Okay, sorry. Noted. Noted don't don't let random nails into the machine. So, what is site question? How long do I got you to? Um, I have I have another business call in 25 minutes 25 Okay, one more question and then I'll get started going out so you can get some time in between to do a set up for them. Okay. What is the little too general but what is like the the essence of marketing you would recommend to young aspiring people to be like you. You know, the most important thing, Josh about marketing and being a marketer is you have to walk in your door Customer shoes, you have to, you have to understand their experiences. If you cannot understand your customers experiences, how can you expect to sell to them? That's, that's the core of what good marketing is. And you'll hear that from people like Seth Godin, and you'll hear that from just, you know, marketers that have been extremely successful. And we've always done that, it's like, you have to understand what it is you're going through. So let's take for example, you you're young, you have this job as a as a janitor, before you start into your, you know, into your broadcasting career. And I have to understand what your problem is, your problem is that you got a lot of work to do at night. And I, and it's been a pain in the ass, it's heavy, it takes too long. I have to, I have to immerse myself in your world, I have to experience that myself as a marketer, if I can experience it and understand your frustrations. How am I going to create a message that's going to connect with you. So a lot of marketing is lazy. Because they look at a, you know, a research report, or they look at some kind of a trend. And yeah, that's, that's fine. That's interesting. And there's some good information. And I'm saying, I'm not saying that's not valuable. But at the end of the day, somebody's research project, how am I going to take that information and create a, create a message that's going to relate to the person I'm trying to sell to unless I've walked in their shoes. So that's, that's the number one thing I would suggest as up and coming marketers, when you have a product or service that you're trying to sell? Even if it's yourself? What what are your customers, your to your audiences? What are they going through, you need to know what it feels like, when you know what it feels like, then you know how to sell it. Because if I went to the school, and actually went from an I get it, dude, eight o'clock to midnight, you're cleaning the you're vacuuming. It's heavy, you've probably worked somewhere else. It's a second job, we worked something else during the day. And it's like I don't, I don't need to make this more difficult. So if I did that, myself, I'm gonna go, Wow, I get this, I better convince this person that I'm going to make that job from eight to midnight is easy as possible. It's not going to be hard, it's going to be really effective, you're going to do a great job, your boss is going to be impressed. If I can make a message that convinces you of that. It's going to work it's going to sell not a research proposal that says, you know, nine out of 10 janitors like this product over the next. So what? Yeah, tell me, right. It's like the ADA for dental nine out of 10 dentists, I was that one jerk saying kind of thing? Like, so what what's that mean? To me, that mean to me, I want to know what this other person it did for their mouth or their teeth or whatever. So I'd say that's, that's the most important thing. And I want to I want to back up on something that, you know, you would kind of prep me for, and I'd hope that this will be valuable to you. And here it is, is the power of empathy and marketing. that's becoming much, much more prevalent. And there's, there's certain times for it. And there's certain markets for it, and there's certain products for it. But it is powerful. And one of the questions you would ask me is, you know, how does empathy marketing what does that mean to certain customers and how does it influence design and how does it do all that? Right? Because I wanted to answer that because it's it's a great question and there's some very specific answers to that I think your audience will understand. So let's take a company like Oxo Oh xo and dice and the Oxo makes hand appliances small appliances for the kitchen. Right? Dyson makes a big appliances. Dyson is about technology and whiz bang and beautiful and a friend in a English talk talking dude, right? Okay, great. Oxo makes their products because the founders wife had a very difficult time. Using products in the kitchen because of a carpal tunnel. So he, as a designer designed these products that fit in her hand that looked different than other hand appliances that other people had. Because they were doing all cool, look at stainless steel is black or whatever. But it wasn't functional to solving a problem. So the empathy in that marketing was that there was a problem his wife was having, he designed something that works specifically for her problem. And he built a huge business off of it. Because of the empathy he had four people who had difficulty using products, and people who respected that. They love the design of their product, they love the versatility, the usability of that product, help them create a huge company based on the empathetic way they marketed versus Dyson, it's just cool. And not that one's better than the other. But here's a little company. It's like the little company that could, right, it's a little making, you know, vegetable peelers. But now they're a huge, huge company, based on that empathetic design of their product and how it works with their consumers and how they talk to their customers. And this goes back to your other question about empathy has everything to do with the ethos of the business, right? What's the ethos of the brand? why don't why am I here? What do I What do I mean to my customers? Why do I exist? And that is becoming much, much more effective. I'm not going to say popular because popular almost sounds like it's trendy. This is about effective marketing. And when you can, when you can explain to your customer why you exist. That's a lot different than saying, Hey, we exist by our product, versus This is why we exist. Want to buy our product? That's genius. No, I actually, I was just thinking about my guests I had yesterday. And it's funny how you said Oxo. The founder designed the products for his wife, the guy, the other guy I had yesterday, he designed it. Wow, I can't words are hard today. He designed a product just for his wife. So he had it. And like coding and designing of hardware, he made a patch to help his wife with menstrual problems. When he was just like, I just did it. It did not look glamorous at all It worked. But he's like now he's like, I pull in almost 50 million a year. Just my company alone. Yeah. And he's like, and it's only growing. And he solved a problem for his wife. And believe me, other women. Women are attracted to that message. Oh, yeah. And he's got a good product. You know, he does. And that was? Yeah, I mean, that's exactly the idea of and he's probably using that empathetic story to sell his product. course, he another another brand that is very interesting as a company called as we move, okay, as we move is a is a luxury brand of men's underwear, of all things. But the reason they exist, is because the founder was a model and an athlete. And he always felt like, why does underwear Why is it so constricting? Why is it so hot? Why is it so this that and the next day? I mean, you and I understand that? Yeah, a lot of guys understand that. So he said, Why can't it be as as stealthy and durable and super, super lightweight? Why can't it be that way? Because I that's where I live my life. So he went on a on a mission to design a pair of underwear like that. They're 45 bucks for a pair of briefs. But I'm telling you, they're some of the best underwear out there. Because you understand his story, his his empathetic story of why he did what he did. And he delivered on a great product. And then it's one thing to say, other popular companies like Hanes and Tommy john and all those which are great products, but they're just an iteration of what we've been doing forever. They just, you know, make a lighter material. This guy totally reinvented underwear and did something to solve his issue. And he's got a hugely growing business, because people who stumble upon it or know about as we move will look at it and go, Oh my gosh, there's no reason I have to have the bulky cotton underwear that in the summers if uncovered was head when there's another option? There is? No and i've i've heard the name, but I didn't correlate it to underwear, because I've heard people talk about it. But I'm like, Oh, it's like, I don't know, sounds stupid. Like it's socks or shirt kind of thing. Because as you move, you want your shirt to be good. Yeah, it's it's guy does a great job. It's a great product. And so again, that's just another great example of empathy and marketing, and utilizing your personal story to solve other people's problems. And that always resonates. Put it this way. I have seen it resonate a lot more in what we do, then a big company saying, Hey, we're the big guys. We got all the money by our product. Yeah, that's not compelling. And it's not like the Oh, it's Walmart, I have to go buy. It's like, that's, that's nice. She has the product, but it's like, personal agenda. I'd rather buy a mom and pop the ink, which is maybe like 10 bucks more about our health, because small businesses, then you guys make so much money, you don't even know what to do with it barely makes enough money kind of thing. Right. Right. And, you know, and they're, and they're, you know, in that little world of men's underwear? I wouldn't say it's been it's probably really big. Right? Well, we're making progress. They're making a difference. And, you know, that's what, that's what shakes the foundations of big iconic businesses. Those types of companies are shaking the foundation of iconic businesses. And those iconic businesses come to us just as much as that startup. Because they realize, you know what the game's changed, we better start getting on board. Because because consumers are savvy, they have so much more information at their fingertips. And they're going to look, and if they're going to look, you better stand out. If you don't stand out. There's there's almost no brand loyalty anymore. There's not an it's sad to say it's very transactional. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm curious, the empathy. And when you were saying the finding a problem and empathy and helping the people, I, for some reason, thought of Toms or bombas. Socks? Is that a part of the empathy? Yeah, thing? Yeah, absolutely. And it's empathy. And philanthropy. And Tom's is definitely a philanthropy story. Right? And same, same with bombas. You know, they're going to give some away for every purchase. And they built that into their business plan. The difference is, that is an input, that is an empathetic marketing tool, right? But the difference is, you better deliver on it. If you do not deliver on it, you will be exposed. So fat. Oh, yeah. And you will be out of business. And that those companies deliver. They're not it's not just, it's not just talk. They do it. And that's the difference is that you got to follow through with what you're doing, because we can all smell full mile later. Exactly. Going. Yeah, I'm sure you're, I'm sure you're, you know, building water. Wells. Well, yeah, right. prove it to me. Well, some did. Like, you know, penciller, for promises another company, that terrible, empathetic business, that we actually build schools and in third world countries, but you better you better prove to that. And that's and that's all part of the experience as a consumer so. So let's say that Toms is, you know, for every shoes sold, they're going to give one to a needy person. Well, they don't just say it, they show you, they tell stories, they go there and show you, the people that are receiving the shoes, they don't, it doesn't stop with just the message. It's the ethos of their business. And people want to be part of that. And you know what, they may not be the best shoes in the world. But I feel good wearing them. I feel good that I'm supporting other people. And that's the difference. those are those are companies that that, that deliver on their promise, but they take you through and they they the consumer experience is just as important as the empathetic marketing. You have to be along the consumer has to be along for the journey. And if I'm along for the journey, there's a business term that relates to that is called lifetime Are you. And what that means is, if I have that relationship, I'm going to continue to buy from you, I'm going to continue to buy from you. And then when I continue to buy with you, and it didn't cost you money to get me as a consumer, I can be a lot more profitable as a business. And that's what empathetic marketing starts that fire, but you better continue on with it, have that consumer part of what you're doing. And then that turns into a lifetime value, which is at the end of the day, which is profitability and sustainability for businesses. And that's why businesses are in business in business. Right, they're in business to make money, but a lot of them are in business only to make money and some of them are in business to make money and to make a difference. And to make a difference is the key that the Express you have nowadays, we're literally like you hop on Legal Zoom 300 bucks, I have an LLC, but what makes the difference between me and them kind of thing. Right? What is that a question for me? Oh, no, just a statement. Sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, and Robin Hood is another example of that is, is like they're getting the, the, the younger investor, a tool an opportunity, a, a, a way to be in the game. Right. And there, matter of fact, they just had one of their largest, they're a profitable company, as an app, investment business. And they had one of the largest quarters earnings ever. And why? Because they're resonating with a certain customer, consumer, like yourself, your age, that type guy. And yeah, who says I don't have a half a million dollars to take efficient investments, or Goldman Sachs, I have 1000 bucks that I want to do something with and build something for myself in the future. They've given you. They they're talking to you in saying, this is a way to do that with Robin. And they're building a great business because they know who they're talking to. And they know what your pain points are, because you don't have those dollars, if you will, at this point in your career to make those huge investment to a portfolio. Know It. And like you said, they have a perfect audience because a normal nine to fiver, like you said we don't have half a mil just sitting around for fun, right and the thing, and I've recently gotten into futures market, and it's like the holy shake, they do just need like, half a mil just for fun. Oh, I burned it. Oh, well. Yeah. Well, that doesn't relate to you, right? No, it doesn't, you know, 1000 bucks is a lot of money to us. It is, but why should I be treated any different. And that's what Robin has basically done through that connection, empathetic marketing to the audience who under they understand their audiences painful. I appreciate you coming on, because I've asked so many marketers to explain that specifically. And they just give me the topical Google search, Oh, do market research or something. And it's like the thing never get to like you just did, where it's nitty gritty. And actually, like drawing it out. Thank you so much. You're welcome. I'm glad I can do that. And I hope I bring some value to you and your audience, and you know it. At the end of the day, great marketing is understanding your customer. And listening to your customer. It's one thing to understand them, it's another thing to talk to them and listen to them. And that goes back to the whole reviews and testimonials and all that kind of stuff. When you let one of the things that we do from the very getgo up on there, and I don't care if it's an iconic brand like Keurig or it is a startup doesn't matter, like a bare minerals at that time, is that we always try to talk to the customer first. We don't want to have preconceived notions from the brand and the company, or from us. Let's talk to the customer first, and then we can build out a foundation of how we're going to put our marketing together. And then we can specifically mistakes, so good. And then we can specifically put together a message that will resonate to that consumer and we can present it to our client of this is why we're doing what we're doing not because we think this is the right thing to do. No, because this is the right thing to do because your consumers told us that's the essence of marketing. And the other part of it is you got to execute. Yeah, you got to execute. It really is. So the This could be a whole podcast is this question loads of but will it be the worst way? Best way to collect that information? especially how diverse everyone? Is it? Would it pay per click a survey on Facebook kind of thing? How would you best get that information to present to your client? So you kind of ask that question about what what is that? What is a good technology? We're gathering meth. Yeah. So you know, there's a, there's a, there's a great, new, that's a new, but it's gaining traction. It's called Qualtrics. Qualtrics is a amazing CRM for customer, customer relationship marketing for people who don't know what CRM is. And that is the ability to engage with your customers, understand what they're looking for, and be able to aggregate that information to give you enough great information to make marketing decisions. So, you know, CRMs are big things. And they're big deals for big companies. Right. But that's a great technology that that I highly recommend to businesses, if you're an individual. It's always going to be your customers. Who are your customers? It's not a click, it's not a it's not a poll, I'd said it's a get on the phone, get off your ass, and ask the customer, what is their pain point? And how is my product or service serving? back and I owe that to Harvey? Or what can extra Can I offer within reasonable exemptions? Exactly. And you know what, you don't have to have a million customers to do that. You can have 10, because majority of the people, the cream is gonna rise to the top, the main, there's gonna be two or three things that are repeatable through people. So the key is to ask questions and shut up, listen to what they have to say, don't get your don't get your thoughts and opinions in the way. Take the data, write it down, and then break it down and go, Oh, nine people said it was because I returned their customer service call in 24 hours 10 people said was that this product really worked. And I felt good about the price. Guess what your marketing should be? You feel good about that. You make a good product, and you feel good about the price. And we have amazing customer service. If you do anything outside of that. You're not you don't have your eye on the ball, you're not listening to your customer. So whether that comes through a sophisticated CRM, like Qualtrics, or an unsophisticated random phone call, or an email with a questionnaire, it doesn't matter. The cream is always going to rise to the top. And that's your, and that's your marketing message. As a place to start, you're going to pivot and you're going to, you're going to mold it from that point on but you want to start from where people are reacting and then build out from that. That's absolute. Wow. That was absolutely brilliant. Thank you. I'd like to cut it there. Yeah. So I have to go now questions. I kind of asked the last one first, what have you been doing during these COVID-19 lock downs other than work to keep yourself busy? Well, I'm, I'm a pretty active person. I try to get out surfing once a week, and I travel with my buddies around the world surfing. So I do that. That's one of the things that I do outside of, you know what I do for a living and and I'm, I feel very fortunate, Josh, that. I'm I, my wife and I own a business that we love what we do, we never come to work. We enjoy the team that we have, and we enjoy our clients. And then the other thing I've been doing with COVID, which is totally random is my wife. My daughter is getting married this month. And we've been putting together a wedding. So that's that was pretty time consuming. Congrats. Yeah, that's very time consuming. Thank you. So that's what I've been up to. That's what I've been up to. That's awesome. Yeah, I can will the others won't see it because I've been seeing your surfboards and the cool wood thing in the back. Yeah. Is that just drift? Would you tie it together? Yeah, it's actually Pisa. It's a piece of artwork. I didn't do it's a piece of artwork, but it's Yes, basically drip working sticks and somebody's molded together. It's actually a pretty cool A sculpture that I really, really liked. And it's just kind of kind of an extension of, kind of, you know, my personality, being outdoors and surfing and is much outdoors environment is as possible. Now, it reminds me of like, the palm trees. And then the driftwood is like, Oh, this is all beach. We're missing zen, basically. So the other question I kind of indirectly asked was, what are maybe some tips and tricks for someone that wants to be like you a good marketer? Well, I don't want to be disrespectful, but there's no tricks. There are saying, Hey, there aren't tricks. There's no, there's no five easy ways. There's no magic, you know, whatever. That's all crap. Okay, it's marketing, its marketing, it's about the tips I would give are. When, as a marketer, you have to put yourself in the mindset of your customer, as I've said, and you have to be comfortable with that, if you're not comfortable with that, and don't want to do that, or don't know how to do it, you don't want to do it, that, that tells you a lot. You don't know how to do it, figure it out. So that the tip is number one tip is to be in, make sure you're in the mind of your customer. And to figure out how to get what you need from them to market. And that's, that's what I call the inventory. That's the boot word, that's the boot camp, that's, that's the down and dirty, you got to do the right thing. That's it, that's an important tip, there's no easy way, there's no magic funnel, there's no five easy steps, right? It's get down and do it. The other tip is, you got to enjoy it. If you don't enjoy it, you're not going to dedicate yourself to it. So if you're not enjoying it, go do something else. Because if you are a marketer, and you're working for a company, or you're working for yourself, or you have a client, they're gonna recognize right off the bat, whether you enjoy it or not. And that makes a difference. Because if somebody is investing a lot of money with you, they want to know that you're you're their partner, they want to know that you're in with them. If you don't communicate that with how you act, how you feel the work that you do, they won't be a client for long. So I know they'll sound very, very basic, Josh, but it's, it's true. You got to love what you do. And you got to do the dirty work. And then, you know, there's a saying that I always say, the harder you work, the luckier you get. That's that's very true. It luck is not really luck. It's just consistency, and does grit and eventually pays off. You got it. People say Oh, you're so lucky. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay. repealing this for 35 years, I guess I'm lucky. Okay. So pretty much Ken, absolute honor to have you on. I would love to have you on in a few months to catch up on different things. Absolutely. Josh, I'd love to, and I really appreciate the opportunity. And you know, again, if you know, I'm, as you know, I'm very active on social media and in LinkedIn, and Instagram, and Ken p carry is my Instagram handle and can carry on LinkedIn, I'm always putting out marketing content, that if your audience is interested, you can just follow me and and hopefully they'll bring some value to them. And you know, I just try to, I try to stay out there and keep people motivated, and to help them understand what's working, what's not working in our little world. And if people get something out of it, I'm glad, glad they could. So be glad to be with you again. And follow up on some of the things we talked about some of the projects that I'm working on right now that I cannot talk about. But in my view, I could tell you, what they were, what we did, and the results of it, and how we went about it. If that's helpful for you and your audience. That would be awesome to hear. Especially if you've worked with the caliber of Amazon and bare minerals. You probably have some awesome clients right now. One of the clients that we're working on right now everybody knows who they are. And everybody, every, every business, every consumer packaged goods, every big brand has the same problem, john How do I create a direct relationship with my customer that make love allows me to have a sustainable business. Because what people don't understand is when I'm selling a product at Walmart, or Amazon, or Costco, whatever, when I sell that product, I don't own that customer. I don't own that email, I don't have that relationship. Costco has a target, say, they don't have it. So I'm spinning around like a, like a hamster, putting out product, but I'm not building a community. And what real marketers are understanding is I have to build a community of clients, because Walmart could call up tomorrow and say, You know what? We're gonna take somebody else, you're gone. Now what? Yeah. So that's what people understand. And the Internet has fractured that. And they're all reacting to it. And that's what our business helps people do. So that's awesome. And yeah, I'll be emailing you later for links so everyone can I'm going to go follow you once I get those legs. All right. Thank you so much. Appreciate your time and your wisdom. Thank you, man.