‘A mountain of small things’ with Masud Husain

In this episode, I talk with Masud Husain, Professor of Neurology and Cognitive Neuroscience at the University of Oxford, about his recent editorial ‘A mountain of small things’.

Husain website

Husain M. A mountain of small things. Brain 2024; 147: 739. [doi]

Transcript

1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,640 Welcome to episode 31 of the Language Neuroscience Podcast.
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I'm Stephen Wilson and I'm a neuroscientist at the University of Queensland in Brisbane,
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00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:14,840 Australia.
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00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:19,040 I have a very special guest today, Professor Masud Husain.
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He's Professor of Neurology and Cognitive Neuroscience at the University of Oxford.
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Masud is different from a lot of the guests that I've had on the podcast because he's
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00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:28,840 not really a language and brain guy.
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He is a neuroscientist and an neurologist, but he works on topics like attention, neglect,
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the link between attention and short-term memory, motivation and apathy.
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00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:40,480 Not the kind of topics that we normally talk about.
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00:00:40,480 --> 00:00:43,920 And indeed, I didn't invite him to talk about his own research today.
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I invited him to talk about an editorial that he wrote for Brain, at the Journal where he
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00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:50,680 is the editor-in-chief.
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As you guys probably know, Brain is a very important journal for our field, some of the most important
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Language and Brain papers of all time have been published in that journal, such as Ludwig
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Lichtheim's 1885 Masterpiece on the "House" - model and Norman Geschwind's beautiful two-part
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So Masud is editor-in-chief of that journal, which is a really prestigious position.
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00:01:14,320 --> 00:01:15,920 Earlier this year, I read his editorial.
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And Masud argues that we have a big problem facing science, bigger even than the reproducibility
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So I invited him to come on the podcast and read his editorial for us, which he's going to
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00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:35,880 do, and then we're going to have a chat about it.
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00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,200 I'm recording this on the weekend before SNL in Brisbane.
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00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,480 I'm hoping to see lots of the listeners of the podcast there at SNL.
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00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,200 Please come and say hi if you see me.
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And I'd love to hear what you guys think about this different kind of episode, which is
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not so much a content episode, but a sort of practice of science episode.
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00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:55,520 Very curious what you guys think.
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00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:56,680 So let me know.
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And if you're not at the conference, feel free to send me an email, smwilsonau@gmail.com.
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00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:03,480 And I hope you enjoy the episode. 35
00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:05,080 All right, let's get to it.
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00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,080 Hi Masud, how are you?
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00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:08,280 I'm well, thank you.
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00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,560 Yeah, it's a pleasure to meet you and thanks for taking the time.
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00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:13,120 Yeah, great for inviting me.
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00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:14,120 Thank you.
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Before we get into it, can you tell me a little bit about yourself and just
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let our listeners know like, who you are and what you're interested in?
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Yeah, I'm a neurologist, still active, clinically, and a neuroscientist.
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00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:30,280 And my interest has really been in sort of cognitive neurology.
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I started off in attention and prominently in people who have inattention or the neglect
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00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,760 That was the area of study for about 15 years or so.
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00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:47,200 That led to work on the link between attention and short-term memory.
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And we did quite a bit of work in trying to understand the architecture of short-term memory in
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healthy people, but also started using new techniques to measure memory in different
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More recently, more recently we've got into, stumbled into motivation and loss of motivation,
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syndrome called apathy, and whether there might be a neurobiological basis for that, across,
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00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,360 across different patient groups.
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00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:17,840 But also in healthy people.
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00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:19,640 Right, okay.
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00:03:19,640 --> 00:03:20,640 That's fascinating.
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And do you link your clinical practice and your research or do you kind of have separate
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00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:27,720 There's a strong link.
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We see people in the cognitive disorders clinic who have all sorts of disorders, including
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But a lot of the patients who come to our clinics also are interested in taking part in
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00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:45,360 Yeah, wonderful.
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So, about your editorial, when I read it a few months ago when it came out, I was very struck
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00:03:53,300 --> 00:03:54,300 It really resonated.
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And I sent it to a lot of colleagues instantly, they've all kind of felt the same way.
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So I was wondering if people haven't read it, then they're not really going to get much
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00:04:03,540 --> 00:04:05,720 So would you be able to read it for us?
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00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,160 I think it's about six paragraphs long.
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00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:10,480 It's a very nice piece of writing.
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00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:12,000 How do you, would you be okay with that?
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00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,360 Of course, yeah, I'd be happy to do that.
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Perhaps I could just set this in a bit of context, because I'm the Editor of Brain.
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And of course, most editorials that we write, I write, are also about 
academic work in the
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But I also think it's a responsibility of intellectuals like us and your podcast listeners
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to flag up areas where we think are actually changing in such a way that they're having a
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devastating impact on our fundamental work, whether you do language or anything else, whether
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So I've thought it's my responsibility as an editor to also write about these things.
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And of course, in order to get interest, you have to write about these in a way that is not
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00:05:20,280 --> 00:05:24,040 But I just want to assure you readers that I'm also a real academic.
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Yes, I can assure our listeners that Masud is an extremely eminent academic.
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You don't get to be the editor-in-chief of Brain when you just wander off the street.
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But yes, this is a very unusual piece of writing.It's not like a typical Brain Editorial.
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00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:41,880 But I loved it.
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00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,160 Okay, so this is the editorial which came out this year.
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00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,960 It's called "A Mountain of Small Things".
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00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,040 I live under its shadow.
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00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,880 I suspect most of you do too.
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00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,600 It is the great mountain of small things.
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Every year it grows a little taller, a little more imposing, a little more daunting.
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The higher it gets, the bigger the shadow it casts, a malignant darkness that pervades
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So much so that it has become the norm for many of us to live entirely in the gloom.
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00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:42,840 Here we stand trembling.
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The mountain of small things makes transformative research, far less likely to happen.
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I have, from time to time, trained my old set of binoculars to inspect its substance.
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The most curious thing is that where one might expect rocky outcrops or cascading waterfalls.
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Here there are forms to fill, reports to write, statements of compliance with policy to
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sign, and your training to perform, appraisal 
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documents to upload, research protocols and ethics applications to complete,
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Once you've appreciated this, you understand why we can no longer cross the shadow's edge:
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why the mountain of small things simply gets bigger and bigger over the years.
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The pressures on our employers and funders from legislation, insurers 
and lawyers has meant
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there is an irresistible urge to issue, on an annual basis yet more demands upon the people
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If like me, you have ploughed a conscientious furrow, respecting compliantly for years
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the edicts that are issued, you will be rewarded by receiving a fresh set of requests.
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There will be several more forms and reports, training modules and policies that you have
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to comply with this year, generated by an increasing number of staff who are employed
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This is doubly so for those of us who are clinicians as well as scientists.
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The measures in the edicts will protect us, we're told. They will help secure our institutions
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But with each year, the mountain of small things gets bigger, making it ever more likely
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Cold blooded and inert, we
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are left unable to devote barely any time to the things we are actually employed to do: research,
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The result is stunted shoots, disfigured in the hopeless, tenebrific atmosphere.
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00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:44,840 The pernicious impact of the mountain is hard to estimate.
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Ask most researchers though, and they will tell you that they have not, in recent years,
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The sense of belonging to an institution where there is a community of academics and clinicians
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that one can be proud to be part of and learn from - has simply vanished.
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From time to time, there is a spark, an ephemeral attempt to remedy the current trajectory, a candle lit,
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00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:38,360 The problem is that we do not have the will to resist the mountain.
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Instead, we may even unwittingly contribute to it, extinguishing hope for the generations
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They might hear about times in the past when there was a sense of purpose, camaraderie
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the mountain's growth is relentless, leading to fewer and fewer people wanting to pursue
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There is a serious crisis in attracting and retaining people in biomedical and clinical
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If we recognize this but do nothing, we will also have contributed to the growing darkness.
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00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:27,160 So that's it.
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And it's kind of shocking that you're basically saying that paperwork 
is one of the biggest
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It's not an obvious conclusion, but I think once you to think about it, it's 
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I think about other things that are huge, like P-Hacking, for instance, and the reproducibility
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00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:01,640 Then those are definitely problems.
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Do you feel like this is an even bigger problem or a problem of the same order of magnitude?
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And having been a researcher for over 30 years, I think what people of my vintage realize is
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that it doesn't have to be this way.
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And we were doing research, 
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We didn't have calamitous consequences for either our institutions, the participants
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And what has happened is, I don't think anybody in particular is at fault.
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And those are potentially legal threats, but it really boils down to making decisions
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As psychologists, some of your listeners would be very used to the idea that it's not really
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Even though the evidence that the kind of instruments they're using would reduce the risk
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It's not just clinical research, it's in all forms of research, and it's stopping us
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Yeah, sometimes I feel like they've protected against every single imaginable risk, except
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for the risk that in doing so, they would completely stifle our ability to do meaningful
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That's the one risk, which nobody seems to be wanting to protect against it all.
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So I think it's our responsibility to articulate that problem, because we have been extremely
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We don't say no, we don't push back, and we've never questioned this in a sort of concerted
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And I think you might say, and a lot of people said to me, "What can I do?
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00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:36,040 But little nudges can have huge effects.
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So a little editorial like this has been read over 10,000 times by people, and some of my
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colleagues are saying they're using it to motivate themselves and 
their groups to push
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00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,240 I'm now doing that on a regular basis, and nothing happens.
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I will just say, "I'm not doing that because there is no necessity to do that."
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00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,800 And usually there isn't a necessity to do that.
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00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,240 There isn't even a legal reason to do that.
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If you push back, you will see that it doesn't mean that something terrible is going to happen
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And it's our responsibility to do this because the generations that follow are not going
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This reminds me of when I was a grad student, I had this side job to make money, transcribing
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interviews with biomedical scientists that was like a project, and that was being done in
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There was this guy, and I don't remember his name is from the 
University of Utah, and
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And I remember he said, "Whenever I get a request for something, the first thing I do is
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00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,880 I never respond to anything on the first request.
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00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,320 If it's important, it will come back again."
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And he said, "You can make maybe 60% of requests will go away if you simply don't respond
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to them."
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Sometimes I do that, but I think I'm also, I will verbally respond to it by saying, "I
242
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,400 don't see the need for this, and I don't know why we have to do this.
243
00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:26,520
I'm not doing it."
244
00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:32,240
And I will sometimes do that if it's, I don't like reply to all in group emails.
245
00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:37,280
I don't usually do that, but in these cases, I think it's important because in a way,
246
00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:41,440
there's a setting a bar there for other people in your department to say, "Look, he's not
247
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:42,440 doing this."
248
00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:43,440 Yeah.
249
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:44,440 Why should I do that?
250
00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:48,200 And I think it's really important for us to resist that. 251
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:54,440 It's, I'm not saying that administrators are malicious people.
252
00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:59,640
I'm just saying, this is the way they feel they need to protect the institution, or it's
253
00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:03,600 come down from an high, from central university.
254
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,760 And they may not have thought that this is, this has a cost.
255
00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:11,920
All of these things have a cost, and the cost is academic time, which is actually costly
256
00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:13,600 for the university.
257
00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:14,600 Yeah.
258
00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:18,760 And how do your colleagues respond when you tell them no?
259
00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:20,600 I don't get anything back.
260
00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:26,000
Or I'll get an email from some of my colleagues saying, "Thank you for setting that."
261
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:34,160
This is, I haven't had to reverse a decision I've made because usually there is no reason
262
00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,520
for that request coming through.
263
00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:40,400
And it's increasing, you know, the number of requests, I'm sure it is in your institution.
264
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:46,640
The number of requests you get for simple things are just out of control.
265
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:53,320
In the UK, over, I think over a decade, the number of academics doubled, but the number
266
00:17:53,320 --> 00:18:00,520
of administrators in UK universities, quadrupled, you know, those people have to do something,
267
00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:02,400 they're employed to do something.
268
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,560 And they also employed to have initiatives.
269
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,480 And those initiatives include, "Oh, why don't we do this?"
270
00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,040 I'm not blaming them.
271
00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:13,320
That's what they're employed to do, but we don't actually need that many of them.
272
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,640 No, we got by fine in the past, right?
273
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:16,640
We did.
274
00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:17,640 And yeah, that's the thing.
275
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:22,360
I guess that's the thing you and I are old enough that we've seen this change in the
276
00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:24,080 course of our careers.
277
00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:30,040
Can you talk about, like, can you give any examples of things that you did research-wise
278
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:35,000
when you were young academic just starting out that would never fly nowadays?
279
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:40,200
Well, I think that's particularly the case with patient-related research, which is a special
280
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:41,520 case.
281
00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:48,680
And it used to be possible to get an ethics application approved for observational or
282
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:55,920
behavioral studies and perhaps imaging in patients within about two or three weeks.
283
00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,640 I got a major award last year.
284
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,600 It started in December last year. 285
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,960 We have only just got ethics approval.
286
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:12,200
And then we still can't start this work because there is a division if you do clinical
287
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:18,320
related research between hospitals, the NHS in the UK and the university, and
288
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:22,360 everyone's really haggling for a bit of the pie.
289
00:19:22,360 --> 00:19:28,800
Despite the fact that this is really simple observation research, patients are very happy
290
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:30,040 to get involved.
291
00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:34,040 There is no intervention, there's no risk here.
292
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:39,880
Everything is about trying to get money out of this in terms of, you know, and that slows
293
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:41,400 the process down.
294
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:45,680 Is any hospital facility being used for this?
295
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,000 Is there a room that isn't a university room that's being used?
296
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:50,000 All right.
297
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:51,000 All that kind of stuff. 
298
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:56,120
And you think, well, if you worked out how much it's costing to have administrators do this
299
00:19:56,120 --> 00:19:57,120 work?
300
00:19:57,120 --> 00:20:01,200 You would realize that this is, actually not worth the while.
301
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,040 The money we're bringing in, in terms of research is not so big.
302
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,200 We're not corporations that you have to worry.
303
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:10,280 These are pennies we're talking about.
304
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:12,280 But that's just giving you an example.
305
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,680
What could be done in three weeks has still has not been done in ten months.
306
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:16,680 Yeah.
307
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:17,680 And it's going to be even longer.
308
00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,000 It's definitely the same here.
309
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,760 Like you wouldn't get anything up on the ground very quickly.
310
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,280 When I was thinking about this, yeah, go on.
311
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:30,000
I was just saying, and of course, I was just talking here about observational studies.
312
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:36,840
Imagine that I had a new intervention for a disease which means that your lifespan is
313
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:38,200 really reduced.
314
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:45,800
I can't get that intervention, drug or whatever it is, to you even try because of these processes.
315
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:53,280
And I think if patients really understood that these administrative processes are blocking
316
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:59,800
them being able to trial these new interventions, they would actually probably voice the same
317
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:01,760 concerns that we are beginning to voice.
318
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:06,000 So the other way of doing this is getting the public involved.
319
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:07,000
Yeah.
320
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:11,320
Were you surprised at how fast they manage to get the COVID vaccine out?
321
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,320 Or do you think they could have got it out even quicker without,
322
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,840 I mean, they sort of had a working vaccine in weeks.
323
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:17,840 Right.
324
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:22,920
So, you know, I work at Oxford and that's where it came from in the UK.
325
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:32,360
And essentially, the regulatory bodies fast tracked those applications.
326
00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:34,240 They had an incentive to do that.
327
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:38,120 It worked out perfectly well, but it showed us that it's possible.
328
00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:39,120 It did.
329
00:21:39,120 --> 00:21:46,000
Now, the risks of a vaccine are much higher than the kind of studies that most of us are doing.
330
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:47,000
Right.
331
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,120 We're not doing any interventional studies.
332
00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:54,240
Yet it's taken me 10 months and I still haven't got an approval to do this.
333
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:59,840
Whereas a COVID vaccine which came with potential far higher risks as well as potential benefits
334
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:03,920 could be fast tracked within a few weeks.
335
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:05,880 So it shows us that it's possible.
336
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:11,360
And it makes us think why on Earth couldn't we do this on a regular basis?
337
00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:12,600 Yeah.
338
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:18,400
And I think back to when I was a grad student, and we used to just use the scanner, for free
339
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,720 after hours because no one else was using it.
340
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:23,240 It was just sitting there.
341
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:27,480
And you could just go in and you know, we consented the research participants, you know, we had an IRB.
342
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:32,960 We could scan a patient, scan the participant, participants.
343
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,760
But like, you know, a grad student who hadn't really had any training was like allowed to
344
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:41,160 just like enter the building after hours, scan a person.
345
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:46,360
And when I think about like what that allowed me to do in terms of, by learning, like, I was
346
00:22:46,360 --> 00:22:47,880 just out of play around with stuff, right?
347
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,320
I just tried out a million different things and like, I'd just make up, I'd just think of some
348
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,400 paradigm over the weekend and 
349
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,600
I just, you know, coded it up and two days later I just ran it on somebody.
350
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,440 And like most of them didn't work and some of them did.
351
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,680 And those are the ones that grew into like lines of research later.
352
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,320 I just think like, what about young people nowadays?
353
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:10,960
They're not getting that opportunity to just like explore because everything is so hard to
354
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:11,960 get started.
355
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:18,160
You're absolutely right. After I did my PhD, I went to do a postdoc at MIT.
356
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:23,520
And I could not believe the culture there because like everyone else, we chat over a coffee
357
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,480 about a potential thought experiment.
358
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,640
When I've been in Oxford doing my PhD, none of that actually translated into anything, those
359
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:32,640 thought experiments.
360
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:39,960
At MIT, full of postdocs from different parts of the world who are there for a short time,
361
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:44,440
there are incentives to get on with things. People would just go, well, let's do it tonight.
362
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,440 And I would say, what do you mean tonight?
363
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,680 Well, let's code it up now and let's do it tonight.
364
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,400 And we would be doing it that evening, just like you said. 365
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:58,200 And most of those things didn't work out, but occasionally they did.
366
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,880 But it also made you feel like you were doing science.
367
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:02,880 You were at the cutting edge.
368
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:03,880 You were trying something.
369
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:04,880 It didn't work out.
370
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:05,880 Okay, why doesn't it work out?
371
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:07,600 Let's play with this.
372
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:09,920 Those days are gone.
373
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:19,920
Some of my other colleagues who really enjoyed the time to think about a problem, say that
374
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:25,320
that has become extremely difficult for them to just sit there thinking for some time.
375
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:29,440
And I guess if you're an administrator, walking passed an office seeing Stephen there and sitting
376
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,920
there thinking, what on earth are you doing?
377
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:34,240 You're not doing something useful.
378
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:39,280
But of course, that is something useful. That's the whole purpose of our being in what we
379
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:40,280 do, right?
380
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:41,400 Yeah, right.
381
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,440 So we need to get that back.
382
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:46,960 And there is no reason we can't get that back.
383
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:54,840
But we do have to express the problem, articulate it well, and put it on the table for people
384
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,200 to understand that there is an issue.
385
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:02,360 And pushing back is just the beginning of trying to change this.
386
00:25:02,360 --> 00:25:08,320
I also understand that trying to do this within an institution is all fine, but what we really
387
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:14,840
need is a much bigger kind of framework to do this because 
institutions need to feel like
388
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,760 they're doing something that other places are doing too.
389
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:24,920
There is no reason why that can't happen if we can get the push on this for this to happen.
390
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:30,480
We just need to hold them by the hand and allow them to take a little bit more risk than
391
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,760 they're doing because it didn't cause any problems in the past.
392
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,880
And of course, they will sometimes say, well, look, there's an example of this.
393
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,480 This went wrong.
394
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,440 But that is what we live with.
395
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:43,680 That's how it happens.
396
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:45,680 There are always going to be problems.
397
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:46,960 You can't get rid of them all.
398
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,960 No, nothing is going to be perfect.
399
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:55,960
Yeah, but like, apart from, you know, so if you describe like individual action we can take
400
00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:03,800
a distance of pushing back against some unreasonable requests here and there, and I'm just thinking
401
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:08,960
of a couple of days ago, I received a request to do something truly meaningless and pointless, to 
402
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,640
attend a two hour meeting, which I would give a three minute, single slide presentation
403
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:18,000
on something that I actually don't have any knowledge or familiarity with anyway.
404
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:23,400
And I looked at my, I thought, oh, I hope I have, I hope I've already got something on
405
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:24,400 at that time.
406
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,960 And so I looked at my calendar and was like, oh, I don't.
407
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,600 And I thought, but the person that sent the email doesn't know that.
408
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:32,640 And so I wrote back and I was like, oh, I'd love to, but
409
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,120 unfortunately, I've got a pre-existing commitment.
410
00:26:35,120 --> 00:26:38,240 And so, you know, we can make these little small pushbacks. 411
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:43,840
But like, how do you see it like ramping up and really changing, like the whole enterprise?
412
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,680 Like, do you think there's ways of scaling up?
413
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:52,360 Well, I mean, you know, I would say you, you, you ducked out there.
414
00:26:52,360 --> 00:26:58,040
You could have said, I don't want to do this because you know, I'm, 
I'm, this is not something that
415
00:26:58,040 --> 00:26:59,440 I have any expertise in.
416
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,600 And I actually need those two hours to do something else.
417
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:07,000
So I think we need to say these things rather than say, I don't, oh, sorry, I can't make
418
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,520 it because I'm doing something else.
419
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:11,600 So I'm going to point the finger back at you.
420
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:12,600 OK, alright. I'll take that. 
421
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:13,600
It was,
422
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:14,600
It was, 
423
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:20,200 It was a little bit, I was a little bit shady and yeah, not very...
424
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:25,320
But seriously, I think what we really need to do is to get to departmental heads because
425
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:32,760
they're the people who meet on the wider table of the university and start having a conversation
426
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:33,760 with them.
427
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:38,720
Now, of course, many departmental heads will not necessarily be sympathetic or even if they're
428
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,880
sympathetic, they'll just say, shrug the shoulders and say, well, this is the way the
429
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:43,520 world is.
430
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,920 This is not the way the world needs to be.
431
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,160 And we're the people who are doing the work, right?
432
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:53,600
We're the people who are doing the work for the universities and we don't have to do it
433
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:54,600 this way.
434
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,640 So we, I'm not militant.
435
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:02,080 I've never been anything but straightforward.
436
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:11,200
But I think it is our responsibility as academics, intellectuals, people who are supposed to be
437
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:16,280
thinking about the future and what we can do with it to actually take action.
438
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:21,960
All action can make a big difference if it's cumulative or it's across the board.
439
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:29,000
If 50% of your department agreed to this and said so to the departmental head, they need
440
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:30,000 to think.
441
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:31,000 Mm-hmm.
442
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:32,000 Yeah.
443
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:40,080
And do you think like, what do you think a young person entering the field can do to make
444
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,200 their way through this new world that we find ourselves in? 445
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,920 I mean, they don't have the air of the department head.
446
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:47,680 Can they just protect themselves?
447
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,480 Is that all they can hope to do as they get started?
448
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:52,640 I think it's really difficult.
449
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:58,320
It's difficult for us to navigate this sort of Byzantine complex of things you have to
450
00:28:58,320 --> 00:28:59,320 get through.
451
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,720 It's not straightforward at all to me.
452
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,400 So I have every sympathy for younger people starting this.
453
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:12,120
If I had my big grant and I didn't have a preexisting grant, I would be tearing my
454
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,880 hair out, my out, because it's 10 months and I haven't started.
455
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:21,520
I did have a preexisting grant so I could just extend the old ethics and keep that going
456
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,480 while we wasted time trying to get the new one. 457
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:32,640
And so I think it's really difficult for younger people and we shouldn't forget that.
458
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:37,680
Even when they get a grant, it's obviously just the beginning of the problem that they're
459
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,520 confronting.
460
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:46,080
So if I was in their position, I think I would also kind of document the problems they're
461
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:51,880
having because without any documentation of how long it's taken you to get through this
462
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:56,560 or why you've had a problem with this, it's meaningless.
463
00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:05,080
And departmental heads can't do anything unless they have real cases, scenarios because
464
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,240 they can't really take this forward anywhere.
465
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:08,640 It's just a little bit vague.
466
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:15,000
So probably the best thing a young person can do is to document exactly what the hurdles
467
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:21,120
have been and why it's been so frustrating and how long it's taken them.
468
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:22,120 Yeah.
469
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,800 And if they're hearing that from all sides, then that might lead to...
470
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:26,800 Exactly.
471
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:27,800
Imagine you're the head of department,
472
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:32,360
You will after a while get frustrated with email after email telling you this is what's
473
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:33,360 happening.
474
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,680 You're going to have to do something.
475
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:41,720
So what's happened in my own department is that we've had these conversations with heads
476
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:50,240
of department but also with administrative heads so that they understand.
477
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:56,080
They may not understand that there is a problem because this is just what they're supposed
478
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:57,080 to do.
479
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,320 This is what central universities told them to do.
480
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,920
So I think it's really important to get them on your side and make them think, "Okay,
481
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,200 I didn't realize that this is an issue."
482
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,960 Because they would just say, "But this would take an hour to do.
483
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:11,960 What's the problem?"
484
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:16,640 And what they don't know is you're being asked to do 10 hours of this.
485
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:17,640 That's so true.
486
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:18,640 That's so true.
487
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:19,640 Yeah.
488
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:24,280
They all seem so trivial in isolation that when you complain, you feel like you're being
489
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:25,280 a whiner for complaining.
490
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:26,280
Well, but 
491
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:31,720
what they don't understand is that the thing you asked me, took me 10 minutes but a thousand
492
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,800 people asked me for 10 minutes.
493
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:39,160
And the other thing that they don't understand, I think, is that if you think of my 40-hour
494
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,880
work week, which is really, of course, like a 50 or 60-hour work week or I don't know how
495
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:48,800
you are, but most of us probably putting in more than 40, you could say, "Okay, well,
496
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:53,240 it's only like this chore is only 1% of your work week.
497
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:54,240
Why are you complaining?"
498
00:31:54,240 --> 00:32:01,840
But of my disposable time, 36 hours of my 40-hour work week is already fully taken up
499
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:06,440
with teaching and ongoing responsibilities and things that are just scheduled and going
500
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:07,440 to happen.
501
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:14,320
It's like if you dig into the remaining time, it's actually only a 
very small part of disposable
502
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:15,320 time.
503
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:19,320
It's like when you dig into it that you're taking much more than you think as a percentage,
504
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:20,800 you said what I'm saying.
505
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:28,440
Well, that is exactly the inspiration for a mountain of small things because that's exactly
506
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:29,440 what I was thinking.
507
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:34,280
I'm going to convey the idea that these are all trivial little things, but actually you
508
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:35,280 put them together, it's
509
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,520 a huge obstacle.
510
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:44,000
That was the actual inspiration behind thinking about the title for this and that sort of concept
511
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:45,440 for the editorial.
512
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:57,280
Yeah, and you gave it just such like, poignant examples, training modules, forms and reports.
513
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:02,400
What I found after some of this conversation with our administrators is they've said, "Well,
514
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:09,760
actually X, Y and Z are not absolute requirements."
515
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:16,520
But A is, everybody needs to do A, but X, Y and Z, when it comes to when push comes to
516
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:21,120 shove, X, Y and Z don't really need to be done.
517
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:22,120 That's been helpful.
518
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,120 They've said, "Okay."
519
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,120
So these are little small gains, but I think that's what we're going to have to do.
520
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:32,160 We're going to have to dismantle the mountain one piece at a time.
521
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,680
It's not going to be, we're going to sweep this thing away in one go, but the small gains
522
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:37,680 are worth it.
523
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:43,200
I think that's what I'd like to hope that your listeners will think about is that each of
524
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,040 these small things are little wins.
525
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:50,080
Yeah, do you feel optimistic or do you just kind of feel like, gosh, 
I'm going to like,
526
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:55,200
swimming is the tide, but I'm really going to get swept away at the end of the day.
527
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,840 I'm not going to stop swimming, but I'm going to get swept away.
528
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:04,640
Yeah, a very senior neuroscientist has described me as being like King 
Canute in front
529
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:13,360 of the sea, trying to whoosh the sea away before the deluge comes.
530
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:19,480
I'm not necessarily super optimistic, but I have been really amazed by the reaction
531
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:20,480 to these editorials.
532
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,600 There are a couple of others.
533
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:31,800
And how people have actually emailed me or texted me or gone on X to say, how good they
534
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:39,140
feel that somebody actually is articulating this in a way that is coherent and perhaps can
535
00:34:39,140 --> 00:34:44,760 be used by as material in the argument.
536
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,880 So I'm not necessarily naive about this.
537
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:53,160
I'm not sure that we're going to be able to change everything here, but I mean, hey, if
538
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:57,120 we don't actually try, then there is no hope.
539
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:01,720
I have to compliment you on the way you just used the word X as if it was like, like it just
540
00:35:01,720 --> 00:35:02,720 rolled off your tongue.
541
00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:07,060
I think it's the first time I've ever heard somebody say X and not say, you know, the site
542
00:35:07,060 --> 00:35:11,160
formerly known as Twitter, so called X, you know, you just like, throw it right in there,
543
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,960 right into your sounds without skipping a beat.
544
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,720 That's very good.
545
00:35:16,720 --> 00:35:21,720
But you know, I think maybe when I could earlier I mentioned, like, you know, the sort of reproducibility
546
00:35:21,720 --> 00:35:24,280
crisis, right?
547
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:32,440
That started with conversation and exposure and bringing into the sort of consciousness
548
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,440 of everybody, right?
549
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,120
20 years ago, nobody was thinking about those issues and then people started talking about
550
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:44,160
them and then, you know, momentum built and I mean, still an issue, still a huge issue.
551
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,640 But like, you feel that things are changing, right?
552
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,400
Clearly there's like a shift has happened in the way we're doing science as a result of
553
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:54,000 that and it didn't happen overnight or 10 or 20 years.
554
00:35:54,000 --> 00:36:00,560
So I think what you're doing, kick starting this conversation, I can hope, I mean, like,
555
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:05,840
I'm a sort of naturally pessimistic person, but if there is hope, then 
I think that it's
556
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:11,000
going to be kind of, it's, it's just starting to talk about it and say, this is a problem
557
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,240
that is bigger than the reproducibility crisis that is crushing science.
558
00:36:15,240 --> 00:36:21,000
Like this paper work obsession, like getting that to be kind of like a mainstream opinion,
559
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,800
because you know, as soon as you say it, other people are like, hey, you're right.
560
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:25,960 Like, I don't enjoy science anymore.
561
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:30,800 I've not had exactly and I've not had any messages saying, I'm wrong.
562
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:31,800 Yeah.
563
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:32,800 So many really interesting things.
564
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:38,560
Actually, I really like writing, writing ethics, ethics proposals and waiting 10 months
565
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:39,840 for them.
566
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,240 And you know, those online training modules are very helpful.
567
00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:47,080
Like, it's really important to know like what the symbol is for hazardous gases when
568
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,320
I work in an office building.
569
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:50,320 Yeah.
570
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:51,320 Yeah.
571
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:56,880
But I also think it's important to think about younger people because they also need to realize
572
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:02,200
that this is a problem because otherwise, they're not going to understand that it wasn't
573
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:03,200 always like this.
574
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:04,200 Yeah.
575
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:05,720 It really wasn't like this, right?
576
00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:12,160
And within our lifetimes, it has changed into this, this monster, which is sort of throttling
577
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,080 our energy to do other stuff.
578
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:18,400 And it really is having a detrimental effect on innovation.
579
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,320 You don't have to the time to think.
580
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,160 You don't have the time to play.
581
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,960 And that's such an important part of doing research, right?
582
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:28,360 Trying something out.
583
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:29,360 Absolutely.
584
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,560 It's really crucial.
585
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:32,560 Yeah.
586
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:33,560 Cool.
587
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:43,480
Thank you so much for, you know, taking me out on my unexpected request to be on a podcast.
588
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,720
I'm really glad, you know, to have met you and to, you know, kind of get your message,
589
00:37:47,720 --> 00:37:52,320
like help spread your message a little bit because I really enjoyed it.
590
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:53,640 Thank you very much, Stephen. Thanks.
591
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:54,640
Yeah.
592
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:59,360
So good luck getting, finding some time today to do some real work, do some thinking, do
593
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:00,360 some science.
594
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:01,840 I'm going to try.
595
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:02,840 Yeah. Definitely.
596
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:03,840 Okay.
597
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:04,840 All right.
598
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:05,840 Thank you so much.
599
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:06,840 Hey, yeah.
600
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:07,840 Thanks, Stephen. Bye.
601
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:08,840 Okay.
602
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:09,840 Okay.
603
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:10,840 Well, that's it for episode 31.
604
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:14,440
Thanks a lot, Masud, for coming on the podcast and reading aloud your editorial and talking
605
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:15,440 about it with me.
606
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:16,440 Really enjoyed it.
607
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:17,840 And I hope you guys did too.
608
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:18,840 All right.
609
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:19,840 Bye for now.
610
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:19,840 See you next time.
611
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:20,840
612
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:21,840
613
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:23,840
614
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:28,000
[Music]