S9-E5: Eoghan Cleary: Protecting Childhood in an Adult World

Eoghan Cleary is a teacher, researcher and campaigner whose work explores the influences shaping young people’s identities, relationships and understanding of sex.

In this deeply reflective conversation, Eoghan shares how a frightening childhood experience, struggles with belonging and his discovery of theatre shaped the person he would become. He discusses working with marginalised communities, creating spaces where young people can be vulnerable and the personal experiences that often sit beneath our desire to help others.

Eoghan also explains how disclosures from students led him to examine the impact of pornography, smartphones and online culture on young people. He argues that children are being asked to navigate an adult-created world before they have the emotional maturity to understand it, and that the responsibility for protecting them must ultimately sit with adults.

At the heart of this episode is a conversation about authenticity, vulnerability and what can happen when a young person feels safe enough to speak honestly, and when an adult is willing to listen and allow what they hear to bring about change.

This episode contains discussions of pornography, sexual violence and the experiences of young people. Listener discretion is advised.

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Transcript

Eoghan Cleary
[00:00:00] Eoghan, thank you very much for joining me. Not at all, Philip. Can I take you back to when you were a kid? What was it that you wanted to be when you were grown up? Uh, I wanted to be an actor, um, always. That was the dream. Um, I just loved film and theater and pretending to be other people and, uh, jumping around my kitchen, dressing up in my old grandparents' clothes that they'd thrown away.
[00:00:30] We used to have a big dressing up box, um, at the top of the stairs. Uh, and yeah, I would spend an awful lot of my childhood dressing up and prance around the place, um, making my mother in particular laugh, uh, as, and being as ridiculous as I could. And then when I realized that you could make money out of it, that's, that's all I wanted to do.
[00:00:49] And, and actually that if you were good at it that you might get paid more than most people in the world. And so that became the dream for a while, winning the Oscar was the childhood obsession. Who [00:01:00] were, who were your favorite characters? Oh, characters. I've, I thought you were gonna ask actors. Um, characters is even...
[00:01:07] I, um... God, I don't, I can't even, I don't even know where to start. I suppose I... I mean, I was just obsessed with Al Pacino, so anybody he played, um, in anything, I just loved watching him. He was just so gregarious and just, like, owned the screen. That, I loved... yeah, I loved it. Injustice anyone that had any sense of injustice done to them who won out in the end, that was always a massive kind of, uh, hook for me when I was- Yeah
[00:01:36] So, like, in, in terms of theater, I remember my dad bringing me to, see a production of, um, Les Mis. I think I was eight, and I was obsessed with this. Like, all of the, all of the injustice that these people faced and fought against and lost but, uh, somehow managed to sing these rousing songs all the way through as they died on stage.
[00:01:58] Uh, but- That's interesting given where your [00:02:00] career has gone to. I know. I think about that a lot. So where did you grow up and what kind of childhood did you have? Uh, I grew up on, uh, Rochestown Avenue, which is kind of between Sallynogen and Killiney uh, an interesting kind of mix. I was baptized in, in Sallynogen Church and, uh, then, and went to Johnstown Boys' National School.
[00:02:22] And then and I suppose there was my parents, my mam was a, a primary school special needs teacher, uh, and my dad had gone back to college actually when I was born. He hadn't finished his Leaving Cert, so I think he went back and finished that and then, um, went to study as a barrister at night.
[00:02:44] He just got a, a, an entry-level civil service job, um, in the Department of Education, but actually ended up working as a private secretary j- a- again, just as a, because it's a, it's a, it was a basic civil servant position, but he ended up as private secretary to the Taoiseach, um, who- Wow
[00:02:59] [00:03:00] so the person who sat outside the door of the office of the Taoiseach and, and, and organized things for him. So he was there, uh, for a, a term with Charlie Haughey, so there's a lot of interesting stories from that. And then Garret FitzGerald and then I think Charlie Haughey again. Um, and then, he specialized in, um, tax consultancy and, um, between himself and Morgan O'Sullivan and Michael D.
[00:03:25] Higgins, they, uh, wrote the legislation to l- to give the tax incentives for Braveheart to be filmed here and kind of, um, were involved in the, birth of the Irish film industry in Ireland. Um, and that, twinned with the arrival of the Celtic Tiger, meant that we moved from, uh, Rochestown Avenue up to Dalkey, and I went from going to the first couple of weeks in public secondary school, um, to getting a place in Blackrock College.
[00:03:55] So there was, yeah, a big, uh, diversity of experience, I [00:04:00] suppose, socioeconomically growing up and a big shift that I imagine a lot of people experienced in Ireland at that time. Um, but it was interesting particularly going into Blackrock, it was interesting 'cause I suppose I didn't have a similar background to a lot of the lads in there and wouldn't have found a sense of belonging there that you might hope for in, in secondary school.
[00:04:23] You sound quite a self-conscious child,, or self-aware child. Yeah. I don't know where that came from. I, I, uh, I w- I was very, uh, sensitive, I know that.
[00:04:33] I, I spent some time in hospital, um, as a four-year-old, where my parents, I think- Uh, for a period of time they, they didn't think I was gonna survive. They were told that I might have leukemia. Now I didn't end up having, leukemia, but, um, it turned out to be food intolerances actually at the e- at the end of it, and it was shutting down my ability to di- to digest.
[00:04:56] So my blood, my blood count had dropped through the floor. But [00:05:00] I remember specifically being in the intensive care unit in there and children dying, um, on either side of me, and I can still remember them. I can still remember their names even. So I don't know. . That's been a very formative piece of life that I kind of keep going back to, uh, looking at the reasons I do things and the things that drive me, and I don't know if it made me more aware of things earlier.
[00:05:27] I, yeah, I haven't really pieced all of that together yet. But I was very aware of everyone else's experiences growing up, definitely. Something about that period in, in, in, uh, hospital led to, uh, a kind of a need to prove that I could survive things and a need to make sure that everyone liked me, uh, so that I would be valued and, and taken care of and looked after.
[00:05:55] And I think a lot of things I did for the rest of my life, and some things I'm still doing [00:06:00] now- ... are informed by that experience. So with all that in mind and your awareness of yourself and of others and, the experiences that you have and that, that other people have Going into an environment like Blackrock College, where those kind of sensitivities aren't necessarily always on show, how was that for you?
[00:06:30] Yeah. I think it's important to say I've spent I've spent two periods of life in Blackrock. I was there as a student, and then I returned as a teacher. And as a student, it was really, really difficult because I did have to shut... The period we w- I was there those things were not acceptable or celebrated or allowed or safe.
[00:06:54] But saying that, at the same time, Blackrock is where I actually discovered theater and, that [00:07:00] whole aspect of my life was also celebrated by some and ridiculed by others. But it was a funny mix and then, yeah, so that was-- I found that really difficult, and it was a very lonely time, actually, um, as a student.
[00:07:16] And then I trained as a teacher later, 'cause I wanted to kind of teach in broad spectrum of schools and to have that on my CV, so I, I went back, and I was really worried that it would be very difficult going back into that environment.
[00:07:26] But actually, school had changed a lot, and I saw an awful lot more space and support and celebration of, of people's sensitivities and people's unique kind of, um, talents and needs. Um, it, it, it was a very different place, uh, by the time I went back, and that was really, I don't know, it was relieving in a way, but it was probably quite healing in another way, um, just to know that these, y-you know, massive institutions that do have a huge role to play in so many young men's lives growing up can, [00:08:00] um, change when they're well-informed.
[00:08:04] Is there a moment that you think of when you were in school where you thought, "Geez, this really is the worst place that I could be"? And then, and then on the flip side, is there a moment when you were there as a teacher where you realized, "No, this, this has improved.
[00:08:21] This is an example where it's not the place that it was"? I- the worst place I could be, I think is... I don't think there's one moment. There was a considerable amount of bullying going on. Now, it was low level, but it had a severe impact because I I was, um...
[00:08:40] Well, I, I don't know. I just, it did really impact me, and I hated the very small minority of people who were involved in it. But yeah, they just had a huge impact. But then again, I kind of rose against it and, and pushed back against it and kind of did things in spite of it.
[00:08:56] So, you know, there's positives there as [00:09:00] well. I remember being there at the time that a lot of the scandals came out from the Catholic Church, and I remember having, at the time, being very invested in kind of religion and the good works and the charitable works and all of that kind of thing, and becoming so aware of the hypocrisy that was being promoted at the time.
[00:09:23] And that really got under my skin, and I rejected a lot of that very... I was kind of 16 at the time, and I remember, uh, rejecting that very actively, that, as long as it didn't matter what these people were saying and what they were representing, as long as their actions were not Eh, congruent with that, and as long as they weren't apologizing for it and not taking ownership of it, I wasn't going to have anything to do with it.
[00:09:53] And I rejected the whole thing very kind of intensely, and would've had a lot of anger around that for a long time. [00:10:00] And in terms of going back, uh, just being involved in the show when I went back and the choirs and actually just teaching in class. Like I, I did a-- I, I was involved in a lot of TY classes and just...
[00:10:13] Sorry, do you know what? I'm remembering now. I ran a program. I was still working as a youth worker at the time, um, in an east inner-city Dublin youth service. And we did a program, or I proposed a program whereby a group of musicians from Blackrock Transition Year would join up with a group of musicians in a music group that I was running in, in one of the most marginal areas of the east inner city of Dublin, who, were at the time just coming to the end of the Hutch-Kinahan feud and, um, and the, and the trauma that they had experienced through that.
[00:10:45] And, uh, the college jumped on it and said, "Absolutely brilliant. Absolutely fantastic." And we ran a, a social development program whereby the young people from the two communities got to come together once a week create music together, but also [00:11:00] then do a lot of work around inequalities that exist and the difference between their lives and the similarities between their lives and what they shared and what they didn't.
[00:11:07] And that was probably the time where I said, "This is amazing. This would never have happened, um, before." And I'm delight- And, and, and it benefited... I mean, the, the frustrating thing is, I suppose it probably benefited the lads from Blackrock more than it benefited the kids from, from the youth service.
[00:11:25] Um, but it did provide the young people from the youth service with great insight into how unequal things are, which provided them... I mean, I-- One, one of them I remember coming to me saying "Why, why are we doing this? I just come away..." When we'd done like a residential piece where we'd kind of done more of the intensive work around inequality and how to address it.
[00:11:47] And I remember she came away from it and she said, "Why are we-- I just come away from these things being so angry." And we were coming from, you know, this, this work by Paolo Freire on the pedagogy of the oppressed, where it [00:12:00] is really important for marginalized communities to become angry so that they can take ownership and seek change.
[00:12:09] And I remember explaining that or trying to explain that to her at the time. She was only 16. Uh, but she got it immediately. She said, "No, you're, you're right. I really-- I do want to do something." So there, yeah, huge positives from that time as well. And coincidentally, I'm actually going back there to direct for the first time in 13 years, I'm going back there to direct the senior school musical next year. So that'll be a whole, a whole other experience. But I'm really looking forward to it.
[00:12:43] It's funny, when we first met in Kinvara we were just chatting afterwards, and I was asking where you're from, and said you went to, to Blackrock, and I'd obviously gone to Blackrock as well, and you mentioned that you were in the shows. And I was like, "Oh, which show were you in?"
[00:12:59] [00:13:00] And you said you were Pippin. And, uh, I opened the doors for Pippin. So I was at the complete other end of the scale. So it's, it's so interesting in the, in the Blackrock College environment- That it, it can be so marginalizing, but I think for the most part, and you may disagree, but for the most part, there is an outlet there for you.
[00:13:24] So somebody like yourself who was bullied but who has a, a huge interest in acting, you can get up on stage in front of hundreds of people over multiple nights and, show the world to a 15, 16-year-old what you can do. Your heart must have soared when you were on stage and, uh, and doing your thing. Yeah. And I think-- So, uh, uh, and I can't emphasize enough how valuable that was for me in life. I went and did a primary degree, an arts degree after, after Blackrock but, um, [00:14:00] always came back and helped with the shows, got little jobs doing acting gigs around, around, um, Dublin, and then went to Galway, did a master's in drama and theater, set up a theater company, which I ran for 10 years, uh, then became a youth worker, but basically did theater with the kids, and then became a teacher, and again, have always done shows.
[00:14:20] And now I'm going back to that. And even the work I'm doing now, you know, the research that I'm doing with young people, uh, on sexual development, we're even talking about how to develop that into, into a piece of radio theater. So that space that was created for me in school has informed the entirety of the rest, along with other things, but it has been a constant thread because I loved it so much.
[00:14:41] And, and I think it's funny because I was-- I didn't understand what it was about it that I loved for a long time. I thought it was... 'Cause I, I was able to sing and I was able to act, so, you know, I ended up getting the lead in the shows when I was in school. Um, and I thought it was, you know, that, that sense of acting and being out in front and being in the spotlight and getting the applause [00:15:00] from, from, like you said, like, over 2,000 people over the course of a week.
[00:15:05] And, um, I realized later, having acted kind of semi-professionally, um, and toured with a number of shows, that can be an awful experience, and I had some awful experiences. What I realized was so valuable about the productions in, in Blackrock was that it was the teamwork that was involved in it.
[00:15:22] That I was part of this huge team, like, of, of, you know, s- 50 to 60 kids on stage who couldn't-- And I, and I say this to the casts of young kids that I, I work with now all the time. You couldn't possibly achieve that on your own. You-- It had to be 50 16-year-olds coming together to decide to trust each other enough that they were gonna go out and stage, take a massive risk in front of huge crowds.
[00:15:49] Uh, particularly for the lads, doing things that, you know, are not celebrated for young men to be doing, dancing and singing and acting and be celebrated by your community for that. And that was [00:16:00] huge, being part. And then having this, remarkably professional production team of adults and students behind you, opening the doors even where you would never have interacted in any other way, and yet you were part of this much bigger movement.
[00:16:16] And that's, I think, what I love so much about it. And, and that could have been, like, that-- I could have found that in the orchestra or in choir or in rugby or in hockey or in, you know, all these things that I do see, and I appreciate kids finding that for them. But it was just-- it was such an intense experience of collaboration and support and total acceptance and belonging and identity formation that I suppose I realized that it, it wasn't necessarily the stardom that I loved, um, even though it was great ego boost.
[00:16:49] But it-- but going back, what I actually love more is creating that space now for young people to experience the same thing, particularly young boys as, as this kind of pushback [00:17:00] against, the broadening of the idea of masculinity kinda takes hold online and, and on social media and stuff like that.
[00:17:07] Um, but yeah, I think there's huge, uh, there's huge work that's done that you never-- Like, people think, "Ah, the TY musical, bit of a laugh." But actually, when it's done in the right way, in a, in a kind of a, a youth development context with a youth development framework, you can do more impactful work there than I've ever done in any other, any other, uh, sphere of life.
[00:17:29] Yeah. And, uh, you mentioned that you became a youth worker. Why are kids and young people so important to you? When you could have been Al Pacino.
[00:17:36] I did once. The closest I got to being Al Pacino was playing the part of, uh, Richard Roman in Glengarry Glen Ross, which was his part in that at one stage. I didn't play it any way like him, but, um, yeah. I think, um, I think I loved... I had a, like, I had an absolutely brilliant childhood.
[00:17:56] I loved being a kid, but I was also conscious [00:18:00] of how fragile it was, I suppose, because of the time I spent in hospital and the kids that didn't get to enjoy childhood. Um, I had some fairly formative experiences, uh, growing up which I won't go into detail about, but where kids' lives were cut short quite tragically or, or violently, and unfortunately experienced a few of those incidents.
[00:18:24] And I just, I was just always really conscious of how unfair the world was. It- c- to be a child is, i- it's such, or what I want to say is the extreme experiences from the extremely positive to extremely negative of what it is to be a child in the world. I just think it's so incredibly unfair, and I suppose I've always tried to do what I can in the small space that I can to enable kids to have positive experiences growing up particularly kids that may [00:19:00] not otherwise have positive experiences growing up.
[00:19:02] And then, and as my career has progressed, and a career is such a a career is such a- Mm-hmm ... such a, you know, highfalutin word. But as I've gotten different jobs growing up, I suppose when I've noticed things that are actively making everybody's childhood worse, that don't need to be that way, that can be changed, like the harms that are being done in social media, for example, or like the harms that are being done by the porn industry, um, I've I suppose, launched at trying to do something about those.
[00:19:37] Because once people know about them, it is really easy to change, and that could be, you know, they could be, uh, some small significant changes that would make everyone's life that little bit better. Why are young people important to me?
[00:19:50] Because- Because it's the most valuable time in life, and it's a time in life where we should, and I hate the word should, but [00:20:00] where we should all be given, um, experiences that are gonna support us going through life. And actually, to go back to your point about, about secondary school in, in Blackrock to give every...
[00:20:13] to know that if I didn't go to Blackrock, I may never have had those positive experiences. Um, and to give every kid that chance where somebody allows them the space to figure out what they love doing, what's gonna serve them best, what's gonna give them that sense of working together and, and belonging and identity.
[00:20:33] Those two words are coming up a lot for me at the moment with the work I'm doing with young men, because I think belonging and identity, there are so many negative ways we can provide that to young people. Um, and actually all we need to do is create a space where they get to experience it through an experience of being authentic and vulnerable.
[00:20:52] And I suppose that's what, at the end of the day, I would love every child to be provided with. The space to [00:21:00] figure out who they are and where they belong, but not because somebody told them how to belong or who to be, but actually to figure that out in a way that they get to be authentic and vulnerable.
[00:21:10] And I think if we can manage to do that or even create tiny spaces, I've seen in my own work, tiny spaces for, for that experience to be created for young people, they just latch onto it. And actually, if, if it's the only time they get, they remember it for the rest of their lives because of how impactful it was. Before we get onto the specifics of the work you're doing at the moment can I just ask you one question about, like, the marginalized groups you've worked with in society? Yeah. So you clearly care so much about other people's experiences.
[00:21:43] What marginalized groups have, have you worked with and what has that taught you or how has that marked you? Um, so I, I spent a lot of time, um, I suppose in my 20s working with very marginalized groups. Uh, I worked with a, youth service in the east inner [00:22:00] city of Galway, um, the Bohermore Youth Development Program.
[00:22:03] And that was kind of a, a marginalized community of disadvantaged young people, marginalized young people, um, a large proportion of whom would've come from the traveling community. Um, and I don't know if I've ever found a community that... Now, they fought me. For the first year, I really had to prove, like the-- I was the first man working as a youth worker, so the first man to work with children in the community, and I really had to prove that I was safe and that I was, and that I was there, and that I was on their side.
[00:22:35] But as soon as I did that, then for the next six years, uh, I don't think I've ever found anywhere that I felt like I was, that I was more, that I belonged more to. They were the most welcoming, most loving, most supportive community I've ever worked in. Um, and, and that's true to this day, and I'm still in contact with lots of those boys in particular.
[00:22:57] Um, there was a group of boys [00:23:00] who I worked with from the age of 13 to, uh, well, sorry, from the age of 12 to 18, 19, and some of them were the first members of their family to do the Leaving Cert. I still am in contact with a lot of them, and they would reflect now on it being, you know, a really important formative part of their life.
[00:23:15] But actually what they don't realize, it was just as a formative part in mine- Mm-hmm ... and I got just as much of a sense of belonging and identity and care and support from them as they did from me. They just didn't realize that they were all, that I was also benefiting from it. Why do you think that the words you've used there about the traveling community are not the words that would generally be applied to them?
[00:23:35] Oh, because people don't know them. That's the bottom line. We are s- we, uh, like- In Ireland, we are so segregated from them, from that community. And they have been so harmed for for generations. There is, there is intergenerational discrimination that has gone on there s-since , the formation [00:24:00] of the state.
[00:24:00] Um, they have been isolated and discriminated against, and there is so much trauma and harm that has been perpetrated against them because of that. And, and obviously there are consequences of that, and oftentimes the traveling community is judged for those consequences where it is not their responsibility.
[00:24:24] It was the responsibility of the rest of us who let them down so massively. The only reason that the words that I use might have been slightly different from the words that you hear being used otherwise is because people don't know them. And that's the same with any minority group.
[00:24:40] If you just know them join in with the community, get to know the community. Do not demand that the community integrate with you. You integrate with the community, and then you'll, uh, realize how absolutely amazing they are. Couldn't agree with you more. Um, yeah. [00:25:00] And we could learn a huge amount in wider Irish society from, uh, the values that are still held so true and close by the traveling community here that a lot of the rest of us have lost as we got distracted by Everything that came along with the modern- modernization of our culture.
[00:25:21] I then wor- worked with, um, a youth group in, in the inner city of Dublin in, in the Sheriff Street area, the North Strand area, during that very violent period. Um, and I would've also done a lot of work abroad with disadvantaged or marginalized communities in, in, in, uh, Uganda.
[00:25:41] I'm also training as a psychotherapist at the moment, and to do that, you have to be in your own therapy process. And I have looked at that and I, I wonder, now that we're talking about this, I wonder how much of all of that work I did, one, to, to be needed, like I was saying, to feel like I was needed, but in combination with that also [00:26:00] to, um, to prove to myself that, uh, somebody cares about you.
[00:26:09] At the end of the day, when you're on your own, when you're in danger of, or when you're on that, when you're in that situation where you find yourself totally alone, really, really scared, I'm just thinking about the hospital experience, and not knowing what's gonna happen that somebody's gonna come and look after you.
[00:26:27] And I wonder if I've, if there's been a combination. I've been trying to prove those two things to myself, um, in seeking out that work. Not that it wasn't driven by my love and care for the young people I was wor- I was working with as well. Of course it was, but I don't think you can feel passionately, as passionately as I did and do about those things if you're not driven by some internal need as well.
[00:26:52] It's funny, I was asked to, um, give advice to, you know, this academy of activists who were graduating recently, um, [00:27:00] just because of the activism I've been involved in, and they asked to give three pieces of advice. And one of the pieces of advice I said was, "Whatever reason you got into this for is personal to you, and do not fool yourself that you're ever gonna resolve that in yourself by doing the work you're doing.
[00:27:16] In fact, you might burn out doing the work you're doing, trying to resolve that need in yourself. You need to separately resolve that personal need within yourself so that you can become more sustainable and actually more effective in doing the work that, that you find yourself doing in society because of that personal drive that kickstarted you into it.
[00:27:37] But if you're relying on that personal drive forever you probably won't be as effective as you will be if you manage to resolve it for yourself." Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's, it's so interesting the, the reasons that we, that we do things, uh, and y- I think the external factors or the external [00:28:00] reasons that we try and portray to the world could be so different to the actual internal realities.
[00:28:06] Absolutely. Uh, 100%. Yeah. I mean, so much of what, like, yeah. Yeah. I, I sorry, I was gonna go on a tangent there, but No, no, it, it was, it was more just to say that, uh, again, I think what you're saying is spot on. I think, I think we all Can understand that and can recognize that in ourselves.
[00:28:29] Whether we want to say it out loud, I guess, is another thing. Yeah. I think I was gonna go on this v- very, like, uh, highbrow analysis of, of, people who, who are the richest people in the world and what they're trying to prove.
[00:28:39] But a much easier accessible thing that I've thought about recently, having spent 10 years as a teacher, and, and I apply this to myself as well, is, and I'm not saying it's true of every teacher, but there is a huge proportion of teachers and youth workers who I would suggest are, um, are [00:29:00] tr- are trying still to achieve something that they didn't manage to get when they themselves were in school.
[00:29:07] And, uh, just thinking about teachers in your life or looking at teachers, you know, is this the piece of the validation that you never got from that age group growing up because you didn't get it growing up yourself? Is this, being looked up to and respected? Is it having control?
[00:29:25] Is this creating space for learning that you never go- got? Is this, um, supporting your divergence that wasn't supported when you were ... you know, there's ... Be- because the reality you cl- the reality of teachers in particular is that you couldn't possibly be doing it for the money, and, and actually youth workers even more so.
[00:29:43] So something else has to be driving you to do it. Yeah. And I just, yeah, I just think it's really interesting to ask that question and I think it would be really beneficial for teachers, 'cause I've done it for myself. I think it would be really beneficial for teachers to ask that question of themselves, "What am I getting out of [00:30:00] being in this position, this really privileged position of spending, you know, eight hours with children every day in the most formative time in their life?
[00:30:09] And, and what's my needs? If there is a need there, what's that need? Um, how's that need playing out, and is it playing out in a positive way for everybody in the room?" And I, I think that it's probably something- Yeah ... every teacher should, uh, be asked as, you know, in their initial teacher training, why are you really getting into it?
[00:30:28] That's really interesting because let's get onto what you're doing now. I've seen you speak so passionately about the work you're doing around the impact of social media, technology, and specifically porn on kids today.
[00:30:44] Tell me how you got into it, why you got into it, and I guess- What are you getting out of it? Yeah. I had addressed it a little bit with, in the youth services that I've worked in, we had facilitated some kind of informal [00:31:00] conversations with, with the lads about it.
[00:31:01] But when I became a secondary school teacher, the shows that I would've done in school, um, I would've always started it off saying theater is supposed to be this thing that you hold up a mirror to society to reflect the truth back to it.
[00:31:14] What do you think your parents, your community needs to know about your lives that they don't currently know?" And we would create shows around that, and they'd be very impactful and very powerful. But a lot of the time it, I suppose it created a space for kids to realize, "Oh, this is, this is somebody I can talk to about things."
[00:31:35] So I was just really alarmed at the level of disclosures I was getting a- about non-consensual sexual experiences that the kids are having. Both male and female students talking about people doing things to them that they, that they didn't want to happen, but they didn't know how to say no to it.
[00:31:51] And there was one, uh, young 15-year-old girl in particular who had been very severely assaulted at a party, sexually assaulted at a party she was [00:32:00] at. And we reported it as we were obliged to do, and we supported her as much as we could, but she never told us who the perpetrator was. Um, and to my shame, I was never able to convince her to do so.
[00:32:14] She said it wasn't fair and it wasn't his fault. And I said, "Well, even if you think it isn't his fault or he isn't to blame, he still needs to be held responsible so that he, he knows not to do it again." And she said, "No, it's not fair." So I said, "Look if you're not willing to let us take this further..."
[00:32:31] I still don't know, she never told me who it was. I said, "If you're not willing to let us take this further, what can I do? What do you want me to do?" And she said, "Just talk to us about it. Start talking to us about what's expected of us, what we think is expected of us, because nobody's having that conversation with us."
[00:32:46] So I just created this, what was called then a gender studies program, which just created a space for my 15 and 16-year-old students to be able to explore what was expected of them, uh, when it came to what they thought was expected [00:33:00] of them because of their gender when it came to kind of pastimes, careers, clothing, self-expression, uh, body image, role in relationships, careers and role in sexual interactions.
[00:33:11] And when it came to their role in sexual interactions, the lists they made of what was expected of them were so extreme and so violent that, I mean, I knew exactly where it was coming from because of my own experience, but I, I didn't want to be the first teacher in the country to name that in a secondary school classroom.
[00:33:26] So I just said, "Look, traditionally, your parents are the ones who teach you about sex in Ireland. Is that who's teaching you these things?" And they all laughed and said no. And I said, "Right, well, the only other person teaching you about these things is, is, is Miss what's-her-name down in room 317.
[00:33:38] Is that who's teaching you this?" And they all said no. I said, "Well, where is it coming from?" And it comes up very naturally now in, in, as they're making the lists because I suppose it's become more, um, normal to talk about it, but it was a very brave boy, put up his hand and said, "Can I be honest, sir?" And I said, "Of course you can."
[00:33:53] He said, "It's porn." And I said, "Great, let's talk about porn. Where are you seeing it? What are you seeing it? Where, what are you [00:34:00] seeing and what impact is it having on you?" So then I suppose it developed more, because as soon as they realized they could talk to somebody, an adult who actually, who knew what they were talking about because of my own exposure to porn growing up, and who could give them information on it and could allow them to discuss it with each other in a way that wasn't based on morality or judgment, but allowed them to become critical of it in their own way and realize that it wasn't serving them at all.
[00:34:29] They were so eager to talk about it. So eager because they'd all been so ex- some of them very reliant on it, um, for a long time, but so many of them had been exposed to it or had sought it out because they had figured out, this is the only way I'm gonna learn how to have actual sex because nobody's talking to us about that.
[00:34:44] So the program developed into more of a , we still do, and I'm still tr- doing it today, and it's formed the basis of a research projects that I'm now part of. Documenting the rates of exposure in Ireland for kids to porn the kind of things that they're seeing and the impact that's having on their sexual [00:35:00] expectations.
[00:35:02] And over 10 years, I just realized that I-- it's not enough for me just to be doing this on my own in a transition year classroom. People need to know, because if they actually knew what the kids were saying, there'd be laws put in place.
[00:35:16] So I just started shouting about it as much as I could, gave parents talks, contacted journalists, um, got on the radio. There was two kind of seminal moments, I, I suppose, where it took off for me with regards to public engagement. Patrick Freyne of The Irish Times, um, visited the school and got permission from parents to interview some of the students that had been through the program with me to talk about it and the impact of it and, and the impact of porn on their childhoods.
[00:35:49] And that, that led to Ryan Tubridy, um, the summer before he left RTE, uh, invited me in to do an interview with him, and he gave me 17 minutes to [00:36:00] talk about what the kids were seeing. And I suppose since then, it has slowly but surely, um You become more and more normalized in society, Irish society, to be able to start having conversations about porn use.
[00:36:18] Now, I don't think we're quite at the stage where we're having conversations about our adult porn use, but we are definitely having the conversation, um, about what it's doing to kids, and I think that's a great access point because for a lot of men who use it in Ireland and it is a lot of men at least over half, uh, use it on a weekly basis according to a mix of studies that's been done.
[00:36:41] Um, but it's so hard to have that conversation because of the shame-based, uh, system that we grew up in, um, that I think it's probably a great access point for the whole country to be able to at least start talking about the impacts that it's having on young people, particularly young boys, because then at least we can, we can [00:37:00] indirectly say to ourselves, "Well, if it's having this impact on young boys, it's probably having this impact on me and my relationship."
[00:37:07] And there's been loads of research done on it. The ESRI did a great study recently on men and the impact that porn is having. We're just getting to the point of being able to have that conversation, I think, as a nation. But I think we are really hungry for it because we do realize that it isn't serving us, or the vast majority of us realize that it isn't serving us.
[00:37:25] There are some people who, who think it's the best thing on the planet and they need it, and I understand why they feel that way, but I think those people also need support and information Um, so yeah, because I suppose it's important to say that the reason, just in case anybody's listening going, "No, no, porn's grand."
[00:37:48] I think our understanding of porn from our experience of it growing up and what it is now is so vastly different because it's an addiction-based product, because it's a [00:38:00] dopamine-engaging mechanism and it's built on that, it has to get more and more extreme, it has to get more and more controversial, it has to get more and more taboo to be able to attempt to give you the same dopamine hit you got the first time you were exposed to it for the vast majority of young people, a teenager, or for the vast majority of young people now, a primary school child.
[00:38:18] But now because of that mechanism, because of that need to become more and more extreme, we now have a situation where 90% of free mainstream porn available online is sexually violent and includes physical acts of sexual violence. And that 94% of that sexual violence is perpetrated against women and girls, and that the women and girls in that are predominantly directed to respond with a neutral or pleasurable disposition.
[00:38:48] So we have this situation where young people are sexually conditioning themselves to be turned on by sexually violent content. And sorry, not just young people, porn users, and that's a really, [00:39:00] really dangerous place for us to be. And yeah, and I suppose 'cause I've kind of jumped over that piece as well, but another really difficult part, is what we're using porn for.
[00:39:13] In the classes that I teach, you know, I do ask that question. I say to them, "Look Porn is not in the background when we're making our breakfast, is it?" And they say, "No, it's not." I say, "What's it used for?" And it's normally the same brave boy puts up his hand and says, "Can I be honest, sir?"
[00:39:26] And I say, "Yeah, of course you can. That's the whole point." And he says, "Masturbation." And I go, "Great. Let's talk about that. Is that what you're calling it?" And they say no. And their word, it was wanking or jerking off when we were in school, but it's gooning now, G-O-O-N-I-N-G. And I can't say this strongly enough, but it is so absolutely vital that we take ownership of separating out what can be a very natural, normal part of your sexual development Um, from masturbating to porn because for so many of the young people who arrive in my classroom, until they [00:40:00] have the conversation with me and our class, because of the rates of exposure and the age that they were exposed to porn in the first place, they have never experienced one without the other.
[00:40:11] And we know masturbating with your imagination, absolutely grand. If it is part of your sexual development, if it isn't, also absolutely grand. But, um, we know that, that using porn for sexual stimulation does change the neuroplasticity of your brain, does reinforce the wiring of your brain to make you dependent on porn, to lower your ability to become sexually aroused and a, and a whole host of other psychosexual issues.
[00:40:38] But also it's linked to higher rates of depression, lower levels of self-esteem in men in Ireland. This research has been done. Uh, higher rates of, um, sexual violence, higher rates of aggression, um, and we need to talk about it. We need to talk about it in terms of how it is increasing violence against women and girls, because it absolutely is. But primarily, [00:41:00] first of all, we need to talk about it in the harm and the damage that it's doing to male sexual development, because it is not serving men. Um, it is turning them into people who are more likely to perpetrate sexual violence, and we know that.
[00:41:15] And it's grooming young men into being more likely to be the perpetrator of sexual violence, and it's grooming young women into thinking that they need to submit to that violence because it is normalizing all these things for young women as well. It's not just targeting boys, it's targeting girls as well.
[00:41:29] Sorry, I feel I've spoken for ages Not at all. Sho- like it's shocking listening to you and, and letting that kind of all of that sink in, I think is- Yeah, I mean- ... really important and- Yeah ... you mentioned- But just, just, I suppose, just to make it really clear and yeah, like one, we, um, we have data of our own that will be published soon on this, um, and I can't share that yet, but like it is not going [00:42:00] to be, it, it is going to reinforce or build on the data that we have from the UK and globally that shows that one in nine children is exposed by the age of 10-- sorry, one in 10 children is exposed to porn by the age of 10.
[00:42:15] Uh, and that over half are exposed before they finish primary school, and that the vast, that, that almost everyone is exposed by the time they finish secondary school, and that according to the small amount of data that we do have on this in Ireland, it, when it comes to our senior cycle boys, 86% of them say that they consume porn, 65% of them say they consume it once a week or more, and 24% of our girls, so that's one in four girls say that they consume it, and that, uh, 17%, uh, or almost one in six say they consume it once a week or more.
[00:42:46] And that's research that was done in 2019. It's really important to know that, the level of misogynistic, sexually violent content that young people are being [00:43:00] exposed to and is being normalized for them to train themselves in what they become sexually stimulated by and what they will expect is expected of them when they actually go to have a sexual experience with somebody.
[00:43:14] So, for example, just to get really grim, as if it wasn't grim enough already, strangulation, known in porn as choking or breath play, now accounts for as the second most common cause of stroke for women under 40 Because it is so normalized in porn, but it is so dangerous, we had to bring legislation into Ireland in 2023 that outlawed strangling somebody. And it is becoming a normal part of sex because of the porn industry. It has exploded at a rate that we, that there is nothing else that can account for it, um, the normalization of it. We have testimony from kids telling us that there, like there are tens of thousands of videos teaching [00:44:00] young boys how to choke someone safely because it's pleasurable.
[00:44:03] It's not choking, it's strangulation. There is no safe way to to do it. But we know from, from, um, 12-year-old girls that it's happening as part of their first kiss in a pre-teen disco because the boys have been told it's how to provide pleasure to a girl. I'm sorry, strangulation is probably the it is not the most extreme acts that are being shown to young people on pornography and that we are hearing from young people that, that they are seeing on porn online.
[00:44:32] And that they're not going looking for it. They're scrolling through TikTok or Snapchat or Instagram or YouTube, and there'll be a, a link that says, you know, "If you like this video, but you wanna see a cheat to this game that none of your friends have," or, "If you wanna see the best football goal of all time that all your friends will wanna see, click on this link."
[00:44:48] And instead of bringing them to the promised content, it brings them directly to the homepage of Pornhub.
[00:44:54] Jesus. Yeah. So I [00:45:00] work for the Sexual Exploitation Research and Policy Institute at the moment. I'm on a career break from teaching. And last year, we did an analysis of the top 100 most popular videos being watched on Pornhub in Ireland on a given day, and the most popular video was an incest a violent incest-related video that involved a young person.
[00:45:20] It was about a stepsister and a stepbrother. And I think what's really important for people to realize is that when they hear me on the radio saying that, you know, one in 10 nine-year-olds is exposed to porn, they need to remember that that's what one in 10 nine-year-olds has been exposed to. This idea that, um, a stepsister asked her stepbrother to help her choose an outfit, but instead they end up having sex.
[00:45:45] And when a nine-year-old sees that online, they don't just see the title that I've just read out, they see the video image moving before they can click out of it. But they also see that it has been viewed 8.2 million times globally, and not only that, it was the [00:46:00] number one most popular kind of sex in Ireland that day.
[00:46:03] And then we wonder why we have judges in Ireland who have had to find 12 and 13-year-olds guilty of raping their siblings or step-siblings Like, in, so before the adolescent population of the, of Ireland got access to the online world, which is around 2012 when the when the global... When, when over half the popu- percentage of the adolescent population of the world got access to the internet through smartphone ownership and smart device ownership.
[00:46:33] The, before that, in Ireland, that year, in 2010, uh, 72 kids under the age of 18 were found guilty of perpetrating sexually violent crimes. But by 2013, that had, that had jumped to 200 and, oh, I don't have the number 283,
[00:46:50] I think, and by 2023, it was 462. From 72. It's an over 600% increase in 15 years, and that [00:47:00] didn't include the over 3,300 sexually violent incidents or crimes that did not meet the criteria to be sent to the Garda Youth Diversion programs. It is a massive exploding issue for young people.
[00:47:14] Community guards used to go around, you know, talking about fireworks. That was, you know, that was their job. So many community guards that I talk to now, they only deal with sexually violent incidents between young people. They don't have time to be going to schools anymore because of the rates of sexually violent interactions.
[00:47:29] Not all meet the criteria to be able to go to the courts, but, and not all even meet the criteria to be go to the youth diversion program. So, like, the numbers are so much bigger than we think they are. When you ask young people why they think it is, they are so clear that it's because of what they're seeing online, um, and particularly what they're seeing in porn.
[00:47:50] And that all comes back to, say, smartphones, tablets. 94% of eight to 12-year-olds in Ireland [00:48:00] have their own smart device. Now, no eight-year-old goes looking for porn. No eight-year-old wants to see two naked people being violent towards each other. But we do know from that age group that they have been exposed to pornified versions of the things they do to see.
[00:48:16] Like, for example, porn versions of Peppa Pig or Paw Patrol or Baby Yoda or Bluey. I've never seen Bluey, but I have seen Bluey porn.
[00:48:27] There are more visits to Pornhub every month than Netflix or Amazon or X. And there are actually more visits to Pornhub every month than Netflix and Amazon combined. And nobody is regulating that industry because we are all too embarrassed and ashamed to have the conversation about it So we have this and just here's a hot take for you.
[00:48:51] Because of our wonderful corporate tax rate in Ireland, the monopolizing company, Aylo, [00:49:00] A-Y-L-O, who owns the top eight heterosexual porn sites and the top five LGBT-based porn sites, has its top five billing subsidiary headquarters in one address in Baldoyle in Dublin. I, I don't know when the last time they filed a tax return is, but the one that I was able to get my hands on, I think was from 2020, which is six years ago.
[00:49:24] I could only get my hands on one of the five subsidiary companies, but they reported a profits of 450 million. Um, and 50 million of that goes to our government in corporate tax rate, and nobody's regulating them. Nobody's telling them that they can't have access to kids. Nobody's putting age verification on the platforms.
[00:49:43] Nobody's telling them that their content shouldn't be violent. Um, Grant Thornton were their auditors for a long time. They had to stop being their auditors because so much child sex abuse material was found on there. Here's a really interesting, piece of information. MasterCard and [00:50:00] Visa are the only two companies that regulate the porn industry.
[00:50:02] MasterCard and Visa actually have ethics teams that meet regularly in their headquarters, and they decide what the porn industry is allowed to create and not create, uh, of a given month. And they decide what's being normalized, what's not being normalized. So, for example, and I'm not gonna get too explicit, and I could, but for example, urinating on somebody was not allowed, uh, up till 2016.
[00:50:25] But in 2016, the Donald Trump-Putin pee tapes scandal normalized the idea of urinating on somebody enough for the ethics teams in MasterCard and Visa to decide that that was now allowed on porn platforms. Now- How do they have the control? They have the control because they control the money.
[00:50:44] Pornhub uses MasterCard and Visa to process their payments, right? So MasterCard and Visa get to regulate, but they only get to regulate what's paid for. Nobody regulates what's not paid for. Nobody regulates what's free online and what kids are being exposed to. [00:51:00] And what I wanted to tell you about that was when a report came out in the US that showed that Pornhub was hosting child sex abuse material, MasterCard and Visa said, at 9:00 PM, made a statement that said, "By midnight, if you don't remove all child sex abuse material, you are going to lose access to our financial management services."
[00:51:23] Between 9:00 PM and midnight, Pornhub removed-- So they had 13 million videos on their platform, and within those three hours, they removed 9 million of them. Now, that's not to say that 9 million of them included child sex abuse material, but it means that they were suspicious and worried about 9 million of the videos.
[00:51:44] But it also means that they have the wherewithal to identify what's on their content, and they have the wherewithal to remove it immediately. And yet, when you report to Pornhub that you are in one of their videos and that you don't want to be, for example, there is currently [00:52:00] a court case going on in Ireland because of their billing headquarters being headquartered here.
[00:52:04] There's an American woman who's taken a court case against them in Ireland because of the harm that was perpetrated to her when she was a child and her content was on Pornhub. Um, they, and they failed to remove it when she informed them that it was there. And we have countless, um, stories about that.
[00:52:24] But obviously the people who are generally involved in this content are not in a position to take court cases against these massive, massive companies who are making, as an industry, about $100 billion a year
[00:52:34] Do you think it's a good idea to give your kids smartphones or tablets? No. No, like Even in schools? No. And I- I'm not representing any organization when I say that. Um, that's just a personal... No, uh, sorry. Uh, look, right now it's become a social necessity for young people to have them, right? So [00:53:00] how hard is it to keep them away?
[00:53:01] Absolutely, uh, you'll have, almost impossible. But should children at all, like, should children en masse have access to the online world in its current state? Absolutely not. It is so unsafe, and not just because of what I've been talking about, but we haven't even talked about contact and the, and the contacts that we...
[00:53:19] Like, according to one of the Cyber Safe Kids' most recent reports on this issue, 83% of eight to 12 year olds have unlimited access to the online world in their bedrooms at night. Who else are we letting into the bedrooms of our eight to 12 year olds as
[00:53:27] a nation, if I come around to your house and I knock on your door and I say, "Hey, let me up into..." I can see you're in a, in a child's bedroom at the moment. You know, I, I go up there and I'm just gonna sit in the corner. I won't touch your child, but I'll just talk to them all nice, and I might ask them for some pictures of them, and I'll send them some pictures of me, and I'll leave before, uh, they come down for breakfast.
[00:53:45] Y- you'd have me... Like, you'd have murdered me on the, on the doorstep before the guards even got a chance to come and protect me from you, and yet we are allowing, 83% of us are allowing the entire online world into our young people's bedrooms in Ireland, into our eight to 12 year olds' bedrooms in [00:54:00] Ireland.
[00:54:00] We've been tricked into allowing this to become normal, um, and it's a disaster. So the online world is currently not safe for children. That's absolutely clear. Unfortunately, we've just been tricked into thinking that it's somehow still okay to do it,, to let them go on because it's become such a normalized part of our lives, and to let them go on when they're sitting in school at the back of a classroom and the teacher doesn't have any power to monitor what they're doing at the back of the classroom on their screen.
[00:54:34] There are huge questions to be asked about, um, the impact that not just screens themselves, but access to the online world, access to all of the information on the planet, access to anybody who wants to engage with you in a harmful manner. And our response to that is, "Oh, we'll teach the kids.
[00:54:54] We'll teach them, you know, to look out for the red flags, to not be groomed to not look at porn to know what's out there and how to [00:55:00] protect themselves." It is not the responsibility of children to protect themselves from harm. You are ruining childhood by suggesting that that's a child's responsibility.
[00:55:11] Because when that child unwittingly and, and unavoidably does get exposed to porn or somebody does flash, it's like we have so much testimony from kids being flashed By people online, when that happens to a child, if you've told that child that it's their responsibility to protect themselves, that child now feels guilty for the harm that was perpetrated against them. Like it's the, it's the definition of victim blaming. Like we're victim blaming kids for sexual abuse.
[00:55:38] Insane. We have got to... And, and, and as parents, we have got to take ownership of it. As adults, we've got to take ownership of it. But more than that, I actually think it's gone beyond the remit of parents and adults in schools. I think it is now our job to demand that the government does its job and protects our children in the way that they would in any other walk of life.[00:56:00]
[00:56:00] But they've got to do it online. Yeah. So you were talking there about, earlier about like why you do this when you're gone and you're looking back on your life, what would you like your legacy to be?
[00:56:16] Um, I... Legacy, I don't need, I don't think I need a legacy, but I would... We were talking about personal motivations, and I know the damage the porn industry did to me, and it was not as bad as it is now.
[00:56:33] I know the damage it did to my relationships. I know the damage it did to my interactions with my female friends, um, who thankfully have had the grace to continue friendships with me. Um, I know that the damage that it's done to countless generations, sorry, not countless, a num- a certain number, particularly of Irish men and women growing up.
[00:56:58] And I [00:57:00] just would love if we could create a space for young people to figure out who they are
[00:57:07] In a supportive manner that they are free from fear and can figure that out in a way, like I said before, is based on authenticity and vulnerability without fear. And if we can do that, and particularly in a sexual context, like if you can create a space for young people in Ireland to figure out what their sexual development would actually look like without the influence of the media, social media, and the porn industry, that'd be massive, and it is so achievable, so incredibly achievable.
[00:57:46] The technical solutions are there, the legal solutions are there. We just need the political will to do it. And I suppose, uh, in a broader piece, I'd love to create, and this is totally unrealistic, but, you know, I think you have to be idealistic [00:58:00] in the extreme in this kind of work. But the idea that every child in Ireland would get some time during childhood where they had a space that they could explore who they really wanted to be, who they really were, in a space that they were allowed to e-explore that in a way that was authentic and allowed for vulnerability, um, without anybody else telling them who or what that should be, I think that would be amazing.