Lead Into It
Lead Into It is a leadership podcast for managers, emerging leaders, and professionals who are trying to figure out how to lead well without completely losing themselves in the process.
I'm Sara Greco: a leadership coach, Air Force leader, and someone who has spent a lot of time thinking (and probably overthinking) about what makes a good leader.
On the show, we talk about the real-life side of leadership: managing people, having difficult conversations, building confidence, setting boundaries, managing up, leading through change, and figuring out what the heck you're doing when you suddenly find yourself in charge.
Some episodes are conversations with people who have interesting stories and lessons to share about leadership, career growth, communication, and personal development. Others are just me, talking through a leadership lesson, a question I've been thinking about, or something I've learned the hard way.
If you're a new or mid-level manager, an emerging leader, or you're somewhere in your career thinking, “Okay...what's next?” you're in the right place.
I'm glad you're here. Grab your coffee and let's get into it.
Lead Into It
15. Communicating with Intention with Marisa Santoro
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On this week's episode, I had an amazing conversation with Marisa Santoro, CEO and Founder, In Our Shoes™ and Gutsy Leadership™ Academy, and we talk about tangible ways you can be your authentic self while in the workplace and how to communicate with intention.
Marisa is a former IT Executive on Wall Street who has over 21 years of experience in corporate roles and leadership. She is the creator of The Gutsy Leadership System TM and founder of In Our Shoes TM, a professional development training and collaboration platform consisting of self-paced online courses and live training delivered through The Gutsy Leadership Academy TM, an online leadership school which promotes a global community for professionals to share their same struggles in a trusted safe environment.
This is a great episode for those who want to learn how to lead better no matter there title or position as well as build on those interpersonal communication methods like email and meetings in the workplace. Find more information about Marisa and In Our Shoes TM: https://inrshoes.com/ Reach out to Marisa: marisa@inrshoes.comReach out: leadintoitpodcast@gmail.com Instagram: @leadintoitLogo Design: Kamry Rose Creative, kamryrosecreative@gmail.com
DISCLAIMER: Any opinions or comments made by host, Sara Greco, and/or her guests are their own and not endorsed by any external entity.
Thanks for listening!! Let’s keep the conversation going: Connect with me on Instagram and LinkedIn, or subscribe to my weekly newsletter. Excited to be here with you!
You're listening to episode 15 of the Lead Into a Podcast. I'm Sarah Greco, and I have over 10 years of experience in various roles in industries. During this time, I learned to talk crucial leadership as both an employee and a leader myself. This has led me to a mission to inspire and provide resources for those who have a desire to be a leader in their field. The Lead Into a podcast is designed to help you learn how to be a leader of device, tools, and inspiration from people with all different types of backgrounds. Let's get started. Well, thanks, Marissa, for coming on the show today. It's awesome to have you on.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here, Sarah.
SPEAKER_00I am so happy that you reached out and I'm so excited to get to know you a little bit more. For the audience, would you go into a little bit about your background and who you are?
SPEAKER_03Sure, yeah. So my name is Marissa Santoro, and I am a former tech executive. I grew up in the New York City area, went to school in downtown Manhattan, and uh landed in uh the financial services environment, which is really where all the chops were at the time. We're talking about the you know early to mid-90s. Um ended up on Wall Street just out of college. I have a uh a 20-year career in technology and um pretty much lived and breathed uh the training for environment, not knowing much about it at the time. You had a really it was really a synchrono type of environment. Um but I but I really you know I really thrived there. I had a couple of strikes against me though, uh as you can imagine being a woman in tech, first of all, uh at that time. I mean, I I I think it's great. There's so many great STEM programs out there, uh, you know, inspiring you know girls. But at the time, you know, there really weren't any women, anything more role models. So um, you know, growing up with you know with a tech career was one strike, and then just being in a you know extremely abrasive, faith, fast-paced environment, which was, you know, let's face it, primarily male-dominated. Um so yeah, so that's uh that's sort of my background. Uh I was there about uh two decades, and um and here I am today. Today I do leadership training and and coaching for professionals.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and your um program is called In Our Shoes, right?
SPEAKER_03Um yeah, well actually my the the the program that that we teach is is called the Gutsy Leadership System, but In Our Shoes is the uh is the company, is the coaching practice that uh that I launched several years ago. And um, yep, yeah. So it was really meant at the time for women, uh, and then it just since you know branched out uh from there, really putting yourself in other people's shoes, understanding you know where they're coming from in business, right? In order to really uh understand your your client, quote unquote.
SPEAKER_00So what uh kind of inspired the transfer from tech to leadership coaching?
SPEAKER_03Ah, well, that's yeah, that's probably a whole chorus in itself, but I'll tell you, I'll tell you the Africa version. Uh, you know, so we're working in Wall Street uh for that number of years, there was there was a lot of you know panic periods, as you can imagine. Uh, and just during the I guess I if I had to pick a point, uh, during the Rocky Financial Services period, um I found, I kind of just found myself in uh just coaching people, you know, really uh helping people get new jobs, new salary. There was this very much very strong fight or flight type of reaction, you know, with so many companies laying off. And and that's sort of when I realized that, you know, coaching was something that I just sort of did naturally and was really helping people. But I I think it was really when I started began when I started talking about intuition and and just giving people giving professionals permission to follow their instinct and just make what I like to call those gutsy moves in your career, uh, you know, not always following with head, but also with heart, with instinct. And so from that, I just started doing um afterwork events, coaching, and so someone eventually said, Marissa, did you ever consider ever consider a life outside of uh financial services, ever think about coaching? And the truth was I hadn't. But you know, taking my own advice, I followed my gut, and um, you know, not it wasn't overnight, but I eventually exited to um to where I am today doing career coaching and and leadership training. Awesome.
SPEAKER_00It's so funny how you tend to fall into what you're kind of leaning into. Yeah, it sounds like you very much leaned into the leadership side of it and you didn't even know it until somebody encouraged you, which was a good leadership move on their half.
SPEAKER_03Yes, actually, you know, it's funny you say that because um, you know, if you look back at your life, you know, even from childhood, five years old, there were just things that, you know, that really attracted you. The books that you read, the the radio, you know, shows you listen to, the people you you like hanging around with, the interests. It really wasn't random. And, you know, when I kind of look back as a child, I um I don't know, like I was always into uh really uh motivational things and and always trying to be my best and that rubbed off in a later life. But yeah, sort of it's interesting as a as an adult that you sort of see things kind of all come together. They were already there, always there, but you just sort of shine the light on it.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. You brought up a little bit about your Gutsy Leadership. Uh do you want to go into that a little bit more and explain what that is?
SPEAKER_03Sure, yeah. So um so Gutsy Leadership is a uh it's an online uh leadership curriculum that I teach uh also through my workshops and seminars, and it's really focused on mindset and and intuition in addition to practical step-by-step business and career tools that you you can apply and that work in your career. But but what I found is that you know 90% of your success is not really what you're doing on a day-to-day basis. Although I know we're, you know, we go to school, we spend a lot of money on our education, work hard, roll up our sleeves, and you know, we're sort of groomed to do do do, especially straight out of college. But what I found, and and I say this, you know, from my own experience in that very abrasive environment, was that you know, you know, there comes a point where you you can't always follow the textbook. You know, you kind of have to make up your rules of the game. And those rules really don't come from anybody handing you a playbook, they come from yourself, they come from how you're feeling in the moment, whether you should speak up, whether you should uh you know ask for something for yourself. And so all of that I I coupled and and and put together and packaged as what I call gutsy leadership, you know, that combination of influence through instinct. Um, so the career and business and intuition. Yeah. And people just like uh the word gutsy. I think that you know it's it sort of makes you feel movement and and a little bit you know outside your comfort zone, which let's face that we all need, right?
SPEAKER_00Right. Courage over comfort. I think Brene Brown says that.
SPEAKER_03Oh, I love that. Yes, I love that.
SPEAKER_00I I tell myself that daily. Yeah, especially right now.
SPEAKER_03Yes, there's a lot of uh comf to a lot of discomfort going on right now.
SPEAKER_00So, what are some of those uh common themes that you see as you developed uh this guts you leadership curriculum?
SPEAKER_03Well, you know, when when I think about themes, I would say they're really based on what I've what I've what I've seen as pain points, pain points for professionals. And the most common pain points that I've seen, men and women included, are self-doubt, you know, that feeling of not feeling good enough. Even if you have your expertise, even if you know your stuff, um, not being able to sell yourself well, uh, you might again, you might be excellent at what you do, right? But if you're not selling it, then that's sort of you know falling off to the wayside. Uh another theme is where you know your career growth is stalled, you know, you're feeling stale and stagnant because you capped out and now you're stuck, you're feeling stuck, not asking for help to articulate what you want and what you need from your career. And and I say this, I'm not just talking about, you know, the average professional coming out of college, you know, just starting out. I'm talking about, you know, even executives. I I coach managing directors who still struggle with this, you know, okay, great, I got my dream position, I'm at the level I worked so hard for, but I'm not really doing a good job now that I'm there, you know, really, really um articulating that. Um, and so moving into a new role for the first time where you're facing off to very similar management, you know, you need to grow accordingly. And so um, so that's a common pain point and struggle. But ultimately, everything I see, all these things really underlying all of them is some level of fear, which is usually the top fears that drive our actions are the fear of failure, the fear of looking bullish, not doing it perfectly. And in financial services, the biggest fear was running out of time when you're under pressure to perform. So, yeah, so I would say if those are the common themes.
SPEAKER_00The way you just said it made so much sense. And I think I've always realized that fear was an underlying concern of most people and how they tend to either feel stagnant in their career because it seems like fear would be prohibiting them from pushing forward with almost anything.
SPEAKER_03That's right. It's really not just about your career. Um, I think on some level, change comes with fear because it's the unknown. And, you know, for me, I I don't think I ever, you know, looking back, I don't think I ever really had ever have been in a work environment where there wasn't some sort of change. I mean, working on Wall Street was, you know, constantly, things were constantly changing, requirements changing. You just kind of had to consistently think on your feet. It was just the normal. It wasn't like, ho hum, okay, today we're gonna do A, B, and C and every quarter we're gonna do that. It just changed so much that I think that you know that that underlying expectation is what really made me passionate to to you know help professionals realize that you know there's never gonna be a normal day. Um just embrace the fear and see what you know, see what can come out of it. But certainly staying stagnant and with your hand, you know, sitting on your hands doesn't really get you anywhere in any area, advancing in any part of your life. So yeah, fear is a big one.
SPEAKER_00So it when you say um embrace the fear or embrace that moment, do you find that they're a little bit different once they decide to face that fear or how they approach to face that fear?
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah. I mean when you're uh yes, I do. I feel like when you're approach when you're approaching fear, you know, your hands are shaking. You know, there's I do breathing exercises to help people remove anxiety. I have I have an exercise of it's called a five-minute phobia cure. I mean, it's not like a snap your fingers, just step into the fear and go. It's literally acting, well, what I like to say is acting in spite of the fear. It's okay to to have these um emotional triggers which are inevitable in all of us. Um, you know, lots of panic attacks, you know. I I've I uh I've worked with people and even myself in the very beginning, being a you know, a woman in that environment. But you know, with that all said, it it's just that we just need the tools to handle it. It's not that we're saying don't uh don't step into it or everything's gonna be just fine, you know, pat on the back. It's it's recognizing, you know, and also I think we know how we are. There are just certain things that we know we get anxiety from, even if you don't consider yourself an anxious person. Right. You know, we kind of just know that there are things that are gonna trigger you. And so if you know it, I think that's half the battle, just being aware of it and then stepping forward anyway. It's so funny. There's a picture of me from many years ago. I was speaking at it was like my first large speaking event, and I'm I'm at a podium, and I'm holding on to that podium for dear life. First, my first live engagement, and I was so nervous, no one knew, right? I just did it, but I after that one event, I could never not speak in front of an audience again. Um, but I had to do it, right? We have to go through that rite of passage, and then when it's over, you know, it's like you know, driving stick shift. You can never not know how to drive stick shift again, it could be 20 years or get on the bike, you know, you just remember. So I think we just have to really remember to be good to ourselves. I think a lot of us are very hard on ourselves and um and just keep you know, keep stepping into it and embracing it.
SPEAKER_00It's so true, but you also don't know how you're gonna react until you're in the situation. So unless you're yet to embrace the situation itself, you're never gonna know how to prepare yourself to react because you don't know how you will. So by essentially embracing your fear, you're prepare yourself for your future self.
SPEAKER_03That's right. You don't really know. Um, but if you uh I I talk about uh this this concept of high expectation, low attachment.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_03So high expectation expectation is you know, you just really, you know, expect the best that you can, even if it's a minimal thing, and then just let it go because um it could really uh you could spend a long time just thinking and over analyzing things, you know, versus just taking action and seeing where it goes with the high highest expectation.
SPEAKER_00I love that. That's awesome. And this kind of leads into talking about embracing fear, kind of talks about what um we're hoping to talk about, which is speaking without apology. So do you want to go into that just a little bit before we dive deeper?
SPEAKER_03Sure, yeah. Um, so speaking without apology is um it was actually uh it started off as a talk that I did. NYU had asked me to come up with a program where uh women specifically, it was really meant for women, but women specifically were diluting themselves in their communication. And I loved it. You know, I I don't I don't always sign up for either come my way, but this one really resonated, especially with gutsy leadership, because so much of being gutsy is communicating. And so speaking of that apology is one of the modules of the Gutsy Leadership System, uh, well it became one of the Gutsy modules, and uh it's all about recognizing how and not just women, it started off with women, but really how we we as a human race are diluting ourselves when we want something, when we just want to show up asking questions or negotiating and and not even realizing it, right? Not even realizing it. So it's been a really powerful subject that just sort of you know spread like wildfire. Uh people were really uh I actually just did a TEDx on that on this very theme that was really, really popular.
SPEAKER_00It is, and I I completely understand, and even related to it today, because there was a situation where I received an email, and all I wanted to do was kind of just crawl in a little bit and be like, oh, I should say I'm sorry, I approached this wrong. And then even just thinking about what we're talking about tonight, I was like, no, they are being very impolite in their email, and I'm not gonna apologize for them doing that. I'm gonna be direct in how I approach it. And so this is I it was so funny that we're talking about this tonight because I just related to it so much today. We do tend to go into that very apologetic, shrinking ourselves down a little bit. Wow. So I would I know one of the questions I sent you was, how do you know if you need help in this area? I obviously already saw that today. But why do you find that or what are some common themes you see as you help coach people through this?
SPEAKER_03Well, you know what? There's no doubt whether you need help in this area, and no doubt of the themes are because once you're aware of it, it's like this floodgates open. And actually, it's funny you mentioned this email example because I cover a whole section on email because it's a primary form of communication. But yeah, um, one of the major themes is where you feeling you're feeling disrespected in a meeting, uh, possibly shut down, possibly overlooked, even in an email, right? Um you could be saying dot da dot da dot, bulleting out your stuff, and then seeking some sort of input and then crickets, you know. So that's the point of disrespect. Um, not being able to get to the point. And I I don't, you know, I don't say this with any shame or blame. It's really, it's really not that easy for uh I think people generally want to spend longer times in meetings and conversations, but there's only so many hours in the day. And so you really need to learn how to get to the point when you're in a meeting, and even if you called the meeting, you know, it doesn't really matter. So that's another theme. Um, your ideas and recommendations not being heard. That's a very common theme. Um, if you don't feel value for your opinions. Another big one is if, you know, a thing I've seen is if you struggle with communicating with those who are in positions of authority to you. Not that you have a problem with people in those positions, but you know, might come back from you know something in childhood, and so rationally you feel like it's fine, but you know, some some dilution is happening where you just sort of acquiesce to everything or nod your head a lot. Um, I think most people sign up to to say, yeah, you know, I really want to learn more about how to speak without apology, but it's not until I sort of shine the spotlight on these things where they realize, you know what, I didn't re I thought I was the only one that that felt that way. And so it's an awareness, you know, it really goes back to the self-awareness, which is really what gutter leadership is about. It's the business leadership, but it's really primarily starts with the self-leadership and self-control.
SPEAKER_00Oh wow. So why would you say it's important to grow in this specific area?
SPEAKER_03Well, um, it is one of the main things is you can't really walk into a conversation or write an email, even if you weren't going out to buy a car, you know, this applies everywhere if you're not intentional. So, you know, it's about being intentional on why you're there and what you're hoping to walk away with. And when you're intentional, you have so much more clarity around not just what you're trying to achieve. I know we sort of always go in and you know from place of what can I walk away from, but also understanding who you're speaking to and what they're looking for, what are their results that they're looking for, and putting yourself in their shoes to really create that engagement. Um, you know, that's really where a lot of conversations drop off, where they people say, Well, I don't really feel like I'm being heard. Well, that might very well be true. Maybe your manager or your peers are tuning out, but how are you gaining clarity on what's keeping them up at night? And what do you think you need to have taped to your forehead so that they'll actually listen to you? You have to put yourself in your quote-unquote client's shoes. Um, but you know, so the in clarity, the intention, and and also I would think when you start speaking without apology, it really raises your confidence level. You go from this negative self-talk, limiting beliefs, to you know, that feeds into a you know weakening your body. You ever feel like you know, you have like sort of like this this your body goes weak in your gut because of the limiting beliefs, and then that lowers your confidence level, and then now all of a sudden, because you have lower confidence level, you're showing up with weak language, diluting your value. So it really all starts from that mindset and the negative self-talk, but we're not connecting that together. We're just you know going in sort of blind and not realizing, hey, you know what, I can actually be intentional about what I want to say, what I want to hear, what do I want to ask beforehand so that there's some sort of control and I'm not working other people's agenda and they're not working mine, right?
SPEAKER_00That's so important. You have to have control of your own agenda, but in a good way. In a good way, in a manipulative way. But like you can control a lot. So you keep saying be intentional. What would you say is that is there a first step to being intentional? Is there a few steps? How does that work?
SPEAKER_03Oh, wow, that's a great question. Um, I call it the rule of three. Um, actually, the rule of three applies everywhere in your life. I even teach my kids this. Whenever they ask me for something, like mom, I need needs something on Roblox, that's a video game. I need something, I always say, don't talk to me until you come up with a rule of three. And and what that means is before you ask me for something, or before you're going to ask for something, or even if you're just not even asking, just setting an agenda, and you want to talk about something that's being held up, approval, whatever it might be, before you go in, just have three things in your hip pocket that you want to hit beats to. It's about hitting the beep. You can hit those beats and make sure you walk away with three things. And I I often coach people to say, you know, well, here's where we are, and then you you outline it for them. This is number one problem, number two problem, number three, and here, and then you just open up on the table what you want to talk about. That also helps the listener because now you're getting to the point, you know, going back to what I said before. I live and breathe by the rule of three. I think if most people in this world did that, meetings would be a lot shorter. Yes. People would come across a lot more clear. There wouldn't be any defensive acts or reactions, there would be responses instead of reactions. So yeah, that's sort of like the magic formula, I guess.
SPEAKER_00So would you say that's the first step to um speaking without apology?
SPEAKER_03Absolutely, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Do you have a story or somebody who you coach that you can share about when how they applied this and how they saw a difference?
SPEAKER_03Oh, I have tons and tons of stories. Well, I would say um, you know, just using my last example of, you know, when you're walking into a meeting and you sort of I I work with a lot of professionals that, you know, it's a knee-jerk reaction. I was there, so I, you know, I'm very empathic to it. But it is so easy for us to put the blame on the other person or the other team and say, you know what, I really don't feel like my unit is uh really listening. I don't feel like I'm being heard, my ideas are being um, you know, jumped on or given credit. And uh what I like to do is is I I like to flip that around and say, well, how can you take responsibility for making sure your ideas are heard? Assuming that, you know, I know you don't have any control over other people. What can you do and how can you show up? And so, you know, when you're intentional, you can say, you know what, here are the results, here's here's the why behind why I'm proposing this idea, for instance, right? So now you're bringing in the rule of three, you're giving them three reasons why your proposal is a good idea, and let's just take it even further. Now you're interrupted because that's another common theme, like being interrupted in a meeting. Now you're saying, excuse me, I'm not finished yet. You know, and you could feel free to writ lift the little finger, you know, like, excuse me, I'm not finished yet. You know, a lot of people just allow themselves to be shut down, but just because Someone interrupts you doesn't mean they are allowed to keep talking, you know. So there is also speaking without apology, just letting them know, you know, let me finish my thought. And it does, it's not confrontational. It's just like, hey, you know, give me some airtime. I had started speaking.
SPEAKER_00Um could you I I had three things that I wanted to talk about. I only got to two. Let me get to the one last one.
SPEAKER_03And then yeah, I'm almost finished. I have one more point. Um, it's really important. I think it's gonna make it, you know, I think it would, I think this could be impactful. Let's just talk about it, let's get it out on the table. And owning your power. And that's really what speaking without apology is. It's it's owning your power. But a lot of times people confuse the word power with control. And I know that there are several we we know there are a lot of people in this world that abuse power, but power is also influence. And my mission in life is to help you know develop leaders of influence. And if you want to be a leader of influence, you have to be be willing to speak what you want to say in as authentic way as possible, but don't don't allow yourself, and I really do say that you know, in every aspect that you can think of, don't allow yourself to be shut down because it's not that they're shutting you down, it's like it's akin to like moving to the back of the room or sorting, rolling your chair to the end of the room and not even being in the conversation anymore. So that's a typical example.
SPEAKER_00When you talk about this, it all makes sense, but putting it into practice, I I even hear myself saying this, and I have a military background, and I'm like, I just hear that B word because sometimes it's put on the the and it for those that didn't ex I it's the cuss word, I don't want to say it. Um but it's the people are being called bossy or um the other one, and it's it's one of those things where it's it's a I would say it leans into a fear, especially for women to be perceived as such. So, how do you help deter people away from not thinking that they're going into that perception, but taking back their power?
SPEAKER_03Well, the first way it's funny, you hit on uh something I wanted to share anyway. Um, because the the first way um you start speaking without apology, the first step to speaking without apology is to answer one question. And this question will change your life. Before you move into a before you get on a phone call, before you get in a meeting, before you get write an email, first thing you want to ask yourself is how do I want to be perceived? All right, how do I want to be perceived? Because the answer to that question, your answer to that question, will dictate how others respond to you and support your advancement. So, and you're tweaking it, you know, you're tweaking it for different people. There's not like a one one-time script that you use for everybody, but you know, if you're clear, if you're talking to a peer versus a manager versus a partner versus, you know, I'll go back to the car salesman, you know, someone's trying to sell you a car. How do I want to be perceived? You know, do I want to show that I'm an educated consumer, that I've done my homework, or do I want them to lead me and give me all the bells and whistles and then give me the you know the $20,000 markup? You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03Um, so it's really just answering that question. How do I want to be perceived? And then that's the clarity, that's the intention. And you go from there, pop in your rule of three, and then the conversation goes forward. But it you you show up, it's a lot of energy as well. I do a lot of energy work, it's not just you know, these principles, it's it's really reading your body and recognizing that that's energy that people can feel. In fact, I've done experiments, uh, you know, just little trials, and you can show up in a room and not say a word, and people can still feel your energy, just being intentional. You know, have you ever been in a conversation where you know the pregnant pause, you're talking, and then all of a sudden there's no talk, you know, they're asking you a question and you don't answer right away. You wait three seconds. That could be the longest three seconds of your life, but just by pausing and not saying anything for three seconds, you've just taken back your power. And you're thinking about what do I want to say? Maybe you're buying yourself some time, you know. Maybe you're thinking about, well, I'm not gonna answer too quickly because I have to buy myself some time, think about how I really want to answer. So there's all these little strategies that really play into, again, owning your power, but in the most authentic way.
SPEAKER_00Okay, that's really interesting. I never thought of having a different perception every single time, but it makes a lot of sense because I've always thought of you are your brand. So you want to stay consistent in your brand. But what you're saying makes a lot of sense too, because if you are a leader and you're leading a team, you want to portray a different perception to them or perspective and kind of portray yourself in a different way. But to a friend or family, you're showing casing yourself a little bit differently to them too.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, um, I I I definitely uh agree with you know, keeping your brand. It's actually one of the other things that I talk about, you know, soft skills and personal branding. This really, this really does shouldn't take you off your brand and what your mission. Um when I mean tweaking it, I really mean putting yourself in the shoes of the person you're speaking to. So if you want to be perceived as an educated consumer who knows the car that they want to buy, then show up as an educated consumer, you know, owning owning that. Uh, if you want to show up as someone who's looking for more challenge and more responsibility, then show up with that. But using your authentic personality while you're doing it, it's really important because you know, we've all been in those meetings where we or conversations where people really they're just sort of taking on other people's personalities, you know, saying what others want to hear. So it's really just making sure you're consistent with your personality and your brand and your unique charm factor, I guess, is what you know, I like to call it your charm. But yeah, I'm glad you I'm glad you clarified that because I definitely don't want to give a um you know perception that you should you should change based on who talking to. It's really just tweaking the conversation so that you're showing up in the best possible way.
SPEAKER_00And it leads back to what you're talking about about intentionality too, because if you're intentional about how you want to tweak it to reach that audience, that makes a lot of sense too.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, just putting yourself in their shoes and saying, well, how would I want them to feel when they walk out of this room?
SPEAKER_00Oh, I love that question.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that that's actually another um besides the rule of three, that's my my second strategy. How do I how do I want them to feel? You know, speakers do this all the time before they leave an audience. How do I want them to feel? How do I want my, especially if you're having a difficult conversation with a colleague, right? And you know that there's a tension, if you just sort of, you know, put yourself in their shoes and say, well, how ideally do I want the result to feel them to feel at the end of this conversation?
SPEAKER_00So you talked about the first step. Is there a few more steps to speaking without apology? Or do you kind of have to?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, I think I think that there are some examples I can share of just practices because once you hear them, you'll never do them again. Um, and this goes back to diluting your value. Uh the first one I would say is the word just. Um perfect example. So let's say you know you pick up the phone, you're calling a colleague, or even your manager, and you say, uh, hey, you know, Sarah, I'm just checking in to see how things are going, or I just want you to know that I've got I'm working on that project, or I just called because I have this issue. You know, the word just, I know it's just a four-letter word, it seems so you know trivial, but that word just alone has just diluted your value, right? So if you turn that around and you and you say, you know what, instead of saying I'm just checking in, you can say, Hey, how is the project going? Or instead of saying I just called, you could say, Hey, I'm I'm calling to see what you might need. Instead of saying I just want you to know, you can say, here's what you need to know, you know, owning your power. Um, and we do this subconsciously, you know. I so I even catch myself doing this. It's not like you know, it's it's sort of like ingrained in our muscle, but it's almost like we feel like we're inconveniencing people and we're interrupting, and we want to be polite. And we struggle with that. We struggle with being too assertive, but but in truth, just by removing that that one word and turning it around energetically, you feel stronger, you know, physically you feel stronger, and you're not lowering yourself and you're not diluting yourself. So that's uh that's one example. Another example I can give. A lot of people get a kick out of this, but let's just say you know, you miss your your weekly meeting with your team, it's like a key meeting, and you're at a dentist appointment, you just you know, you're late. Come rushing in and you say, I'm so sorry I'm late, but I had a dentist appointment. Right? I do give this example in the context of of women versus men because it does happen more with women. So you say, I'm so sorry I'm late, but I had a dentist appointment. You know, if you flip that around, a man would come in. If it were a man who did the same thing, he would say, Morning, I had a dentist appointment. Catch me up. Right? He keeps it light. He keeps it light, he keeps it airy. You know, the more it's like the more focus we we put on things, the more we bring attention to our situation, and then it just shines a spotlight on you if you're feeling red and embarrassed. So just remove the word but they're no but just you know, state the situation and move on. So that's speaking without apology.
SPEAKER_00That's something I've applied. I've put and instead of but. Oh, but I I had read something about that, and it it's hard, it's almost like I'm throwing myself out there, but I reread the sentence and I'm like, oh, it's much more direct, it's much more non-apologetic.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's also how you feel. If you feel like it it sounds okay, you know, the end, or you know, I never tell anyone to I never put words in people's mouth. I just I I my hope is to really help professionals realize that how it's not so much what you're saying, it's also how you say it, but with the words that you use, words matter. They really do matter, and and it can just just be taken in such a different context. You know, I think if someone says, Do you think, Sarah, do you think you can handle this project? And you look at your manager and you say, Well, I think so. I think I can take a look, I think I can work, versus saying, you know what, I'm confident that I can get this done in two weeks. Or I fully expect with enough budget and resources, yeah, you know, uh let or I'm confident that I can, but let me get back and let me get back to you. See, I just use the word. But you know, the truth is is that if you don't have certainty in your own capabilities, then why would you expect anyone else to? And that's leading with influence, you know, that's how people really advance in leadership. Um, you know, just really uh recognizing just little tweaks, you know, that you can make to make yourself sound and feel feel more confident.
SPEAKER_00Just a little bit about my background for I know that you know that I'm military, but when I transferred over to corporate and I work at an airline and they're very known for being friendly and fun, I had to change my whole communication method.
SPEAKER_03Oh, see? That's what I was talking about. Yes, I did.
SPEAKER_00I felt it too, but it was almost like I came, it was like I forced myself to be away for the military because I needed to be that way because of what I was going to be perceived as a leader, as a military officer. I needed to be. I could still be myself in person, but when I was talking to a general or a colonel or an email, it was always very much direct, straightforward. Um, and then when I came to my corporate job, it was I really had to be fluffy, which is something that I've combined now. I feel like I've kind of met them in the middle, and that's who I actually am. But it's you have to add that. How are you? Because otherwise it's considered mean in their eyes. They were like, Why are you upset? I'm like, no, I'm just emailing you about this one thing I wanted to check in on. Right. And it's so it is a perception that it's just kind of finding out who you are, at least that's what it was for me, was finding out who I was and kind of meeting them in the middle where I felt comfortable with their style, but it felt still like me on both ends of the spectrum.
SPEAKER_03Right. And that's and that's what you just hit the nail on the head. Exactly. So that's what's speaking without apology. It has to, that's what it's all about. It has to feel authentic with you. It's your personal brand, your personal charisma. You know, the minute you start taking on, and I've worked with a lot of professionals that you know that try take on personalities of their leadership, you know, that's how cultures are formed. You know, if you work for the, you know, um, the Iron Man or the Iron Woman, then guess what? You know, the apples don't fall fast in that tree. You're gonna get a lot of mini iron men and women. Um, but if you're willing to, you know, really go beyond that and realize, you know what, this is the culture, but I still can maintain my own personal personality, and I can still adjust. There are rituals, what you described as you know, certain things that you do in in in different environments, but I you can still tweak it, but as long as you don't feel like internally that you're being someone else, you know, and people can really feel that if you know people will always tell. So I'm really I love that example because especially with your background, you know, you meet all types of different people.
SPEAKER_00That was the biggest culture shock for me. So I could understand where people are used to doing their emails or talking a certain way, and then if they're trying to reach into their authenticity, it's very vulnerable to try to change the way that you approach things, but feel truer to yourself. Um, while approaching yeah. It was very different, but I learned a lot about myself and how you can grow with that. Right. Yeah. This is such a good topic. Thank you so much for coming on the show. And I really welcome just having that email today. I was like, there's so much that I mean I can learn, everyone can learn about how to approach their emails and how to approach meetings and the kind of office culture that you interact with on a day-to-day and the way that you explained it, it can make such a big difference and with very small intentional actions.
SPEAKER_03It really does. And then and then it just, you know, you really work it up to a you know, you might start speaking without apology in a very small group or teen huddle. And then over time, you know, now you're in the boardroom or now you're in a larger senior level audience, and and you know, but you've inched it up over time. It's not like you know, you go whole hog and start speaking without apology behind a microphone. You know, you might even start, you know, blogging is such a big thing, right? Maybe you'll start writing articles, or maybe you'll start sharing on social platforms. You just start, you know, I I work with a a lot of people that say, you know, and I've even started speaking without apology as a parent. You know, it works that way as well. If you know, kids, I have two little ones, they can smell weakness. That's one thing about children, right? If you're not strong, they will smell it and they will, you know, you give them a finger, they'll take the whole hand. So you you kind of have to be clear and intentional with our kids too. Um, and I learned those lessons. There was one thing I wanted to mention when you talked about the email, just in terms of like writing, I have seen patterns with younger professionals that are just out of college, let's just say one or two years, where they tend to use a lot of exclamation points at the end, you know, like hi. Yeah, hi, you know, or hi David, exclamation point. I just want you to know, you know, there's a judge, I just want you to know I'm taking care of that status report, exclamation point, you know, and and I've gotten a lot of feedback from people who say, you know, I've been told by my management that I need to lose the exclamation points. And I explained to them why. It's just, you know, it's just like going back to that question. You're not being perceived as someone, it's the people pleasing, you know. It's like I just want to please you, I just want to make sure that I'm setting excitement and fun. It's not really your job to make people's lives fun or or happy. It's it's your job to do your job and then bring your personality if you want to share a joke and put an exclamation. Yeah, but it's just overdone, you know.
SPEAKER_00There's a I don't know if you have you seen the meme where it's an example of an email saying, hi, exclamation point. I'm gonna write a sentence without an exclamation point period. And then it's like, I'm gonna add one here so you know I'm fun. Exclamation point. Thank you. Oh, you should find it. It's perfect example because you do feel you're like, is this too much? Should I even add it here? It's almost like an art.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah, it you're so right. I well, first of all, I have not seen that meme. I'm gonna be looking that up one of my next training.
SPEAKER_00I related to it a little too much.
SPEAKER_03Wow, I didn't know. Um, no, but I mean, you know, and of course, you know, if it's someone that you're chummy with, um, oh, exclamation point happy. That's fine because it's it's like, you know, it's a friend, or you feel comfortable, or they tell you the most ridiculous jokes and you just laugh at them anyway. You know, but if it's someone that you don't really have that good, especially if someone, you know, an authority, a position of authority, yeah, you just want to be think, just go back to that question. How do I want to be perceived? Do I want to be perceived as fun-loving and and people pleasing, or do I want to be perceived as, I've got this? You gave me that report, I've got it. One week, it's done. Don't even worry about it. We don't even have to email again. You know what I'm saying? So it's uh it is an art form. I really like that. Uh I I might take that for my next seminar, Sarah.
SPEAKER_00You'll find it. I'm sure you'll find it on Google really easily.
SPEAKER_03I I really want to speak to the the confident. I know a lot of times we think we're not confident, and this this topic is not about not being confident. So I want to make sure there's no confusion on that. This is about you know your expertise, you know, even if you're just one or two years graduating from college, you know yourself, you know, you're working hard, you're smart. And if you are struggling with some of the things we talked about here on this podcast, know that first of all, you're not alone. And also, it doesn't mean you're not confident. It just means that you have to, you know, you really just have to show up with clarity, maybe a little bit more clarity, which will have you be perceived and owning your confidence in an even greater way. You know, just you know, really taking what you know and and being able to communicate that so that people can feel your clarity and feel your strength, uh, and just be really good to yourself because I can tell you that even to this day, I still catch myself with the justs and the buts, and um it it's it's just uh it's just being aware of how you sound and and being in control of how you want to be perceived.
SPEAKER_00So that's great. We talked a little bit about gutsy leadership and in our shoes. Do you want to talk about and share where folks can find more information about you and your programs?
SPEAKER_03Sure, yeah. So the website is nr.shoes.com. That's I and is andancy, the letter r shoes.com. Uh, you could also feel free to reach out to me at Marissa at nrshoes.com, imrshoes.com, and uh my name is M-A-R-I-SA. Hopefully the TEDx will be out in a uh a month or two. So you could also Google speaking without apology when that happens. Um, and uh if you'd like to learn more, I'm happy to share.
SPEAKER_00This is great, Marissa. Thank you so much. And I know our audience learned so much from this today, and uh I look forward to seeing that TED Talk too. I'm excited to see you.
SPEAKER_03Oh, thank you. I am too. With the with the current crisis, everything's been delayed. But uh, I appreciate that, Sarah. Keep on doing this. People need to hear more, more leadership podcasts that are real, you know, conversations, and that's really what I know your mission is. Yeah. Talk about what's not a podcast. You're welcome. Thank you. It's it's quite an honor.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for listening to another episode of Lead Into It. Don't miss any episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or following on Spotify. And if you enjoyed today's episode, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Thanks and have a great day.
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