77. Rewind: How Cultivating a Feedback Culture Can Transform Your Leadership and Team Trust with Kelly Waltman

Unlock the secret to transforming your leadership with feedback that fuels growth and trust.

In this rewind episode, we revisit an impactful conversation with Kelly Waltman, founder and CEO of SLC Consulting and author of Elevate Connection: Cultivate an Engaged, Inspired, Productive and Profitable Team Culture. 

This converation is about the art of feedback — giving, receiving, and cultivating a feedback-friendly culture. Whether you're a leader, team member, or aspiring professional, understanding how to navigate feedback can transform your relationships and organizational dynamics.

Key Topics:

• The importance of feedback as a core leadership skill
• Building a feedback culture where giving and receiving feedback is ongoing and woven into daily interactions
• Myths and truths about fear and vulnerability in feedback conversations
• Practical steps for creating safe spaces and incentivizing feedback processes
• The STOMPS model for effective feedback: Safe space, Timing, Objective, Balance, Specific, and Follow-up
• Strategies to start requesting and giving feedback within your sphere of influence
• The impact of cultural differences on feedback styles and communication norms
• Actionable tips for practicing and improving feedback skills through role-play and accountability partnerships
• Resources including books like Brene Brown’s works and Kim Scott’s Radical Candor for deeper learning
• Kelly’s recommended first step: asking for feedback and genuinely listening

Timestamps: 

 01:10 - Defining feedback culture and its importance
 04:21 - How to create a feedback culture within teams
 06:36 - Overcoming fear and setting the stage for open dialogues
 08:24 - Assessing where your team is on the feedback readiness spectrum
 09:46 - Small steps for individuals to improve their feedback skills
 10:14 - Understanding and addressing the fear of giving and receiving feedback
 12:29 - The role of vulnerability and psychological safety in feedback
 15:28 - Asking non-threatening, open-ended questions to initiate feedback
 16:36 - Setting the right tone and modeling feedback behaviors
 20:30 - The STOMPS framework for providing effective feedback
 23:36 - Practicing feedback through role-play and accountability partners
 25:11 - Creating an environment where feedback leads to growth
 27:22 - The emotional and cultural aspects of feedback styles
 30:26 - Recognizing feedback's role in career development and leadership efficacy
 32:17 - Examples of both ineffective and effective feedback scenarios
 34:46 - The importance of respectful, specific, and timely feedback
 37:11 - Using feedback to facilitate change management and team buy-in
 38:29 - Ensuring a safe, relationship-based environment for feedback
 40:44 - How to receive feedback effectively without defensiveness
 43:52 - Building a culture of appreciation and valuing input
 45:50 - Feedback across cultures and international styles

Connect with Kelly Waltman: 

• Website
• LinkedIn

Don’t forget: The foundation of a strong team or organization is built on honest, respectful, and continual feedback. Start today by asking for feedback in your sphere of influence and lead by example.

Let’s keep the conversation going—connect with me on Instagram and LinkedIn, subscribe to my weekly newsletter, or reach out at hello@leadintoit.co. 

Excited to be with you!

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

You're listening to episode 77 of the Lead Into a Podcast. Welcome back to another episode of Lead Into It. I'm your host, Sarah Greco. Today's episode is a rewind episode, and I'm bringing back an original conversation that I think is just as relevant today as it was when I first recorded it. So, ladies and gentlemen, we're talking about feedback. Giving it, receiving it, and just getting more comfortable with it. It is something that continues to come up in conversations with my coaching clients and even in everyday conversations with my peers. The more I coach, the more I lead, the more I'm finding that feedback might be one of the most important, if not the most important leadership skill there is. So it's one of those things that sounds so simple in theory, like you give feedback and you receive it and you're good to go. It actually can feel so uncomfortable in practice. Giving it, receiving it, it all takes intention. And something I've noticed over the years is that when feedback doesn't happen or isn't done well, it can create confusion, assumptions, frustration, and missed opportunities. But when feedback is done well and becomes part of how we operate, it can create trust, growth, stronger connections. And so that's why I'm bringing back this conversation that I had with Kelly Woolman. Kelly is the founder and CEO of SLR Consulting. And in this episode, we talked about what it actually looks like to create what she calls a feedback culture. We get into why giving and receiving feedback can feel so hard, the role fear plays in those conversations, and how shifting our mindset around feedback can actually help us become stronger leaders and stronger humans. So whether this is your first time listening to this episode or you're just revisiting it with new experiences and perspectives, I hope that something in this conversation gives you a new way to think about feedback. All right, let's get into it. Hey Callie, how are you doing today? Hi, Sarah. I'm great. Thank you so much for uh for having me here to chat with you today. I really appreciate it. Well, welcome to Lead Into It. We're happy to have you, and I'm so excited to learn more from you. I'm super excited about our topic today. But before we get started, I'd love to have you go into who you are and what brought you to where you are today. It's a big question, but I love to go over this at the beginning just to kind of get a full story of the guests and to see what we can tell our audience and everything about it.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

So go ahead. Sure. Yeah, thank you. And I'll try to, yeah, I'll try to give the uh the life story in the the mini version. Uh so um yeah, I'm I'm Dr. Kelly Waltman. I'm the founder and CEO of SLR Leadership Consulting. And I'm based in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, but I do work um much beyond that, especially in our in our virtual global world. I'm not limited to just just Pennsylvania, but that's where I'm situated. Um and yeah, it's it's been an interesting 20 plus year career journey for me. Um, and that's kind of led me to where I am now and why I'm doing what I do. And I've been fortunate throughout those 20 plus years to have a variety of experiences. But always it's interesting for me, education, training, leadership, those pieces of work have always found their way into whatever role I've had. So I, you know, I've been an actual educator. You know, I teach as an adjunct, I've been a professor for the better part of 15 years, um, and I now do training. Uh, but even when that wasn't my quote-unquote job, I always somehow found myself being the trainer, uh, the leader. Um, so it's been great for me in my current capacity to take that culmination of experience, um, having been a director for multiple employers, having been an educator, um, having that leadership experience and to be able to share that in this capacity and do the work that I love to do. So helping leaders and teams um really cultivate a feedback culture, focus on their communication. Um, you know, feedback is a huge piece for me, um, both in the consulting work I do and the training. And um, I really just want leaders and teams to be able to feel that that sense of synergy, that they have that open dialogue and communication, um, and that their workplace culture really is someplace that people really want to be. You know, they're excited to be a part of it and and they feel like they can communicate openly. Um, that's really kind of at the spirit of why I do what I do.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

I love it. I love it. And feedback is huge. And that's actually our like our main topic for today. And I'm super excited for it because I would say that seems to be like when I hear about leadership problems or like what some struggles are. It's either receiving feedback, giving feedback, or something in the realm of. And you mentioned feedback culture, and I love that mentality. Can you go into that a little bit more about like what does feedback culture mean and how does that work?

SPEAKER_01 4:51

Sure. Yeah. And I I do tend to use that terminology and conceptualize feedback that way versus just a feedback loop. I mean, there's nothing wrong with the idea of a feedback loop. That's fine. But for me, it is beyond that. And when I think of, and you know, when I have the model of a feedback culture, it really is that feedback is being given and received at and between all levels. So leadership is giving and receiving feedback to team members. Team members are giving and receiving feedback to leadership and andor from leadership and to one another, that at the peer level, they're able to have that dynamic of giving and receiving feedback. And it really is just woven into the fabric of that culture, you know, that it's not just something that happens once in a while or once a year at performance reviews, but on a regular, ongoing basis, woven into the dialogue of that team, they're giving and receiving positive and critical feedback just all the time. It's just part of the flow. Um, that's what a feedback culture really means to me.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

And how do you get there? Like, what would be a first step to starting to build a feedback culture? I know at so in the military, we give like initial feedback, midterm feedback, and final feedback. So that's like right before your performance report. And then in the one company I worked for, they actually had just opened it up to quarterly reviews, which I love, but there was still something missing. Like it wasn't that we ended up getting what you're talking about, that feedback culture. It was like there was a hesitation or there was um a fear, maybe, of doing that. And so I'd love to hear what your recommendations would be to get to that feedback culture.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Yeah. Now when you mention the word fear there, that is spot on. And that's actually one of the uh things I talk about is taking the fear out of feedback. That's actually one of my so you're spot on. You know, that's um, yeah, that's I'm on a mission to take the fear out of feedback. So you're absolutely right that we do, and we can talk about why that is, uh, we can get to that. But um, yeah, I mean, that's a really big question. And um, it takes a lot of work and intentionality. Um, you know, there's four primary steps that I talk about when a team really wants to go down that road, when they really want to invest and work on that feedback culture. Um, and that setting the stage, and that really is about creating that space, that safe space for feedback. And that doesn't mean that people aren't going to still be a little uncomfortable when you're when you're starting down that path, but really doing the work to set the stage, set the expectation, create that safe space for beginning to have that open dialogue, because it is, it's for a lot of leaders and teams a very different way to communicate. Um, and then assessing where you are. And so that's why it's it's a big question and it's hard to answer in a in a small way, because each team dynamic is going to be so different. Um, where, depending on where they are on that spectrum of being ready to have that type of dialogue. Some are almost there, they're really close and they just need a little bit of work to get across the finish line. Some are not that they're a true finish line, but you know what I mean, uh to that place. Others are, it's a really toxic environment. And so it's going to take a lot to set that stage and really begin to do that work. And so assessing where the team dynamic is, where leadership is, that's really a crucial piece to be able to say, okay, here are your next steps. But it it's really about taking those first initial fundamental steps, being intentional and saying, okay, this is something we're going to do and we're going to embark on as a team. Um, I do talk with people if they are, as an individual, this is something that they want to do. And maybe they don't have a whole lot of influence. You know, they're not a decision maker. Um, what I talk about with people when they come to me is do what you can within your sphere of influence. So you may not be the primary decision maker for your agency. Uh, you may not be in a formal leadership position, but you're you're wanting to hone your leadership skills and you want to have that type of rapport and dialogue. So do what you can within your sphere of influence. Model that behavior yourself, be open to receiving feedback, um, work on your feedback skills, giving it in a in a respectful and appropriate way. Work on that and do what you can within your your sphere. And likely, hopefully, that will have a ripple effect. And people will start to notice that difference. And as they're engaging with you, they'll start to engage with other people differently and um do what you can from there. So hopefully that answered your question in terms of it's it's a big, this is a huge topic.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

And literally, as you're talking, I'm going through like experiences of like, oh, feedback. Oh, I could have worked on giving that a little bit better. Oh, I wish I would have received that. Or like there's just so much, I feel like this is such a it's a personal topic. And I maybe that's why it dives into fear a little bit. So why don't you go ahead into the fear of receiving or giving feedback? Because I think that that's like it's it's just so personal.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

Yeah, it is. That's a great point. You're absolutely right. And that is part of why we, why we fear it and become uncomfortable. And the fear of giving and receiving, it's it's slightly different, but there definitely a lot of overlap there in terms of our discomfort with both giving and receiving feedback. You know, part of our discomfort with receiving feedback is it's it's triggered by our survival instinct. We are hardwired from our many, many years ago, our ancestors, where our literal survival depended upon our standing in the tribe. If we didn't have good standing in our tribe, and if we were shunned from our tribe, we would not survive. And so that's still hardwired in our in our brain, in our nervous system. That's still there buried deep. And in our current modern society, obviously it's slightly different, but that is still triggered when we start to receive especially critical feedback from someone. It's our normal visceral response for that to be triggered, that survival instinct to think, uh-oh, I've disappointed them. My standing in the tribe is threatened. Oh no. And we immediately want to start to justify and explain. And when I talk to people about how to receive feedback effectively, I say that's the number one thing not to do. Just listen. Don't, don't defend, don't justify. But that's our normal response because we want to make things better. We want to make things right. And so some of it's survival instinct, uh, some of it is negativity bias. We can hear 10 positive things, but that one negative thing that we hear or one critical thing, that's what we focus on and perseverate on. Yeah. And we sit with that and we're uncomfortable. Um, so that's that's a big piece of it as well. And ultimately, it just comes down to the vulnerability. It's a very vulnerable thing to receive feedback and to give feedback. And so um once we're able to get to that place to sit with that discomfort and sit with the vulnerability and and process it and know that it's okay, that that's part of the process, um, then that helps. But also when you have a team that can get to that feedback culture, the more regularly you're giving and receiving feedback, the more it's just happening. That fear is gonna subside some. It's still gonna be uncomfortable, but you know this isn't a threat to your standing in the tribe. You know this is just part of the conversation, the dialogue. So you're a lot more comfortable with receiving it. It's not as big of a threat.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

I always, every time I hear vulnerability, I'm like, Brene Brown. And I love the end of it was, I think Darren Greatly, where she talks about unless you're willing to sit on the same side of the table of them, you're not ready to give or receive feedback. And I think that was a major point to like for her to bring up, just saying, like, no one's better or worse than one another. It's just the feedback that you're receiving. So if you're on the same side of the table, it kind of sets the tone for how that feedback session is gonna go.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

I I love her work. Um and absolutely, yes, the idea of vulnerability. And, you know, she talks about a lot about armored leadership. And so, yes, when it comes to particularly for leaders, for any of us, but for leaders especially, to be willing to receive feedback, not just to give it, but to receive it, that requires us to take off the armor and be willing to be called to the carpet and called the task and and hear how we can be better. Um, and that's hard for people. It is.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

How do you kind of create that environment where people are open to giving that type of feedback? Is there a way to kind of set the tone? Is there a place and a time to do that? Like what have you seen work the best?

SPEAKER_01 14:04

So, one of the best ways I've I've found to help both leaders get more comfortable with doing that, but also to help the people that they're asking for feedback from to get them more comfortable to do it.

SPEAKER_02 14:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

Um, is I call it an upward feedback session. And do this separate from any review that you would be doing of performance of the individual. This should be a separate meeting. Um, and I do recommend that you send these questions to the individual ahead of time, but ask them to then bring their answers to the meeting. And I I call them like gateway questions. They're um they're they're pretty um, you know, non-threatening, but they really help you get some some genuine feedback. So it's questions like, what are you getting from me that is helpful? What aren't you getting from me that would help you be more successful? Are the things I could do to help the team be more successful? Um, you know, those types of questions where they're open-ended, but they're and they're worded in a way that are that's not threatening. Like if I just say to you, okay, Sarah, you know, what could I do better? Well, you're gonna be way intimidated to answer that question. Even if you have some suggestions, you're gonna think, I can't say that. But if I say to you, okay, Sarah, I'd really love to know what I could do to help you be more successful? That's something you can answer. You know, that's and it's still giving me feedback as your as your boss. Um, or if I say to you, um, you know, I'd love to know, is this, is this weekly meeting structure that we're doing, is this really the most beneficial for you? Is there something else that you'd like to see us do in this meeting? So, you know, is the way we're communicating the most beneficial for you? Um, so there's ways to to ask questions and and start that feedback process in a way that's easy for the leader to receive it, um, but also easier for for that individual to share that feedback. And that's really, I think, the way to kind of start that process and begin that dialogue.

SPEAKER_02 16:09

Well, and that opens the door for them too, because I imagine that once the leader sets the tone for however the feedback session is, it doesn't even sound like feedback, honestly. It sounds like, hey, is this working for you? Like, let me know what you think. And it's just kind of opening the door for conversation. So if the leader's doing that, then I imagine the employee would mirror that action as well and kind of do along the similar lines.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Exactly. Yeah. And and I've said also that, yeah, certainly you as the employee could ask your manager, your supervisor, those same questions. You know, what could I do to help your job be easier? What could I do? You know, and and ask for that same type of feedback because sometimes we're we're not getting feedback from our supervisors the way we would like. You know, some are you're only getting those annual performance reviews, and half the time those aren't even really all that helpful because there's some standard form that it's supposed to apply to everybody. So true. Oh my gosh. They help no one. Yeah. Um, anything that's supposed to apply to everybody doesn't work for anybody. Um, so you know, that's a way also, yes, to to solicit some feedback um from your supervisor in a way that isn't a huge burden for them, but it shows you genuinely care. Um, and it's just a great way to have that dialogue as well.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

Is there a list of these questions somewhere or is this something that you've just kind of developed all along the time? Because I think that would be such a good resource for everyone to kind of have on hand.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Sure. Yeah. Um, yeah, I have some of these are embedded in blog posts if people go to my website and to the blog. Um, but I also have some things as downloads on on the website as well. So there's certain certain worksheets and resources on the on the website that people could use as downloads.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

That's awesome. Cause it's just like having those, even if you just keep them like in the front of your notebook. And what I like about these types of questions is even as an employee, if you're talking about receiving feedback from your leader, you're taking control of your career by doing that. Like that's not just waiting for something to happen. You're literally taking an opportunity and you're asking the questions that could make an impact on how your career progresses. Absolutely. Yeah, 100% spot on. Yeah, I agree. So we kind of talked about it, but would you say that's kind of like a formula to feedback, or is there more to it?

SPEAKER_01 18:33

So when I think about a formula to feedback, I my mind goes to what I consider the effective components of feedback. Um, and I, you know, there's lots of different, depending on who you talk to. I've heard the sandwich one.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

The sandwich one's a big one. Positive, negative, positive. And then I've heard that's awful. So you shouldn't do that.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

Right. Yes, I'm sitting here like cringing, no, don't do the sandwich. Don't do the sandwich. I'm so anti-sandwich. Um uh because for a lot of reasons. Um one, it's it's awkward. You know, if you need to, if you especially if you have a behavior that really needs to be addressed, um, it's very awkward if you say to someone, you're trying to think of something nice to say first before you get to the behavior that needs to be addressed. And then, you know, oh, but but again, you did it, did a good job the other day. It's like, well, wait, now they're leaving confused. Like, are you trying to does this behavior need to change? Or, you know, so it's very confusing. I think people want to do the sandwich method because they think it feels better. Yeah. Um, but honestly, just being open and and being effective in your delivery of feedback is going to be way more beneficial. I will clarify and say that there are absolutely times that you will want to talk about strengths and areas for improvement in the same conversation. I'm not saying you can never highlight something positive and give areas for growth, especially, you know, if you're debriefing a meeting or a project or something, it's totally okay to say, okay, let's debrief this scenario. Here are the things that I think went really, really well. What do you think? You know, how did you feel things went? You know, what did you see as the highlights, the positives? Here's what I saw. Um, now let's talk about some things that could be improved for next time. That's fine if you want to have that kind of conversation. But if you really just need to confront a negative issue or a critical issue and you're doing the sandwich, it's just no, it's not gonna work. So I'll I'll very quickly um tell you that the the acronym that I developed to help people remember, and I call it the stops acronym. So the first thing, and this is honestly the most important, is is a safe space. That's the first step. Safe space, safe space. But if there is not a safe space, it doesn't matter what else you do, people aren't going to be able to receive that feedback effectively. And that's true for both giving and receiving feedback. That's absolutely priority. Um the next the T is for timing, but uh really for feedback to be effective, it needs to be timely. If you wait too long, you dilute your message, it's awkward. Um, it's just yeah, so doing uh giving feedback as soon as possible, right after the behavior is essential. Objective, effective feedback needs to be objective. It's about the behavior, not the person. So you're not making value-based judgments. I've I've heard people say, I heard a manager say to an employee about they were parking in a spot that they shouldn't have been parking in. It wasn't really a spot. And they said, you know, what's wrong with you? Are you lazy? Do you think you're better than everybody else? You know, that is not that's not a that's not helpful. So um it's not, it needs to be objective. You know, you can certainly talk to the person about parking in the spot that's not a spot that they shouldn't be in, but you do it in in an objective and respectful way. And then the P, I kind of cheat a little bit because it's positive and critical, about having that balance. Um, it's some people are really good about giving positive feedback and saying when things are going well and they're really uncomfortable with giving the critical feedback. And other people are really great at pointing out all the things that need to be changed and they forget to give the positive feedback. So um making sure that you're having that balance. Um, and then S is specific. You know, be very specific. If you just say to somebody, oh, you know, you're doing a great job, keep up the good work. Okay, that's nice, but they don't really know what specifically they should continue to do. Or um, you know, if you just say to somebody, you're not answering emails fast enough, okay, that's sort of helpful, but be really specific. Our company policy is an acknowledgement within two days, you know, you need to improve and do within that time period. So just being being specific. Um, so that's for me, those are the components of effective feedback and and making sure that those things are are in play is is important.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

How can you go about practicing something like this? Like, I mean, I could call my best friend or whatever and be like, hey, can I just go through this conversation with you? But I'm I I feel like that's that's almost not enough. Like, I've like I've been in the situations where I wish I would have given either more feedback or I would have received more feedback. And it's one of those things where it's like, I don't know, is there a way to like just kind of stepstone into it or like step into it a little bit and then work your way up to like hard feedback? I don't know. What would your recommendations be?

unknown 23:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

No, I think that I think you're on the right track. I, you know, for people who really just need some true fundamental practice, I think having a coworker, a friend, a family member, somebody that you can say, look, I can I role-play this conversation with you and and talk through it. Uh, you know, get your get your thoughts together. And that's, I can't if I have this on the website. I have a resource to to help people prepare feedback because I think that's really helpful as well. Yeah. Yeah, to to be able to sit down and get your thoughts in order. You know, don't over-prepare, don't make it, but just get your thoughts in order to help you come up with with your main points of what you want to say. So I think that's one piece is just getting, you know, preparing your thoughts. Um, and then yeah, say, can I role-play this conversation with you? Beyond that, I think you're right that it is at some point you need to then also just get more comfortable. And um, I think if you have a colleague that you can even just have that conversation with, say, hey, can we be, can we be feedback buddies? Can we be accountability? That's a great idea. Yeah. You know, can can this be a safe space for us to to to you know, practice this feedback with one another and make it genuine feedback. It doesn't always still have kind of, you know, role-play scenarios, but to be able to say, we're agreeing that this is a safe partnership for us to be able to do that and just practice giving that positive and critical feedback. Um, you know, say to them, maybe have a presentation, okay, this is a chance for us to practice. I'm gonna present. I'd really like you to to come up with some things that I could do better, you know, help me with that process. So I think that's that's a good way to do it. And then yeah, if you can find, if you want to start to become more comfortable having those conversations with people outside of that, maybe pick some of those smaller things first and and have those conversations because yeah, the more you do it, then the more comfortable you're going to become. And the more you can start to have some of the more difficult conversations.

SPEAKER_02 25:48

I love the partnership idea. I've never thought about that before, but I've remember being part of a team and we all like naturally just did it because we were extreme high achievers. So we're like, how did I do on this presentation? And we would give like pretty critical feedback, but it was because we were asking for it. So if you're at a stage in your career where you're not necessarily supervising people, that gives you opportunities to create situations that you can give or receive feedback. So I love that idea. I think that's a great way for when you're not supervising somebody.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

Yeah. And if you are able to, if you're not in a supervisory capacity, but there's other opportunities to take on a leadership role, seek those out and then use that as an opportunity to practice giving feedback to people if you're in a leadership capacity, but not necessarily a supervisor, but also then receiving it. Say, as you know, as I'm leading this initiative, I really want your feedback. And that's a good chance for you to practice receiving feedback as well.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

And the reason, like I'm just I look back on my career and I wish I would just would have done it more. There's such a fear around it. And it's one of those things where it's because it's this built-in fear, I now continue to have a fear of it. And it shouldn't be that way. It should be part of a regular corporate culture where it's just part of what you do. It's like checking email. You receive feedback. Like it should be the same. And I hate that it's one of those things where it's just it's so scary. It's there's no reason for it to be. It should just be a part of it. Right. No, I you're you're speaking my language.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Reach. Uh, I I completely agree. Um, and I I hear you. And I I also look back on my career and and think about the times, both when I was not the leader and when I was the leader, and times that I um didn't give feedback or maybe didn't do it as well as I could have. But I also look at the times when I, especially when I was not in a leader supervisor role yet. Um, and I went ahead and I stood up and I gave that feedback. How good I felt, you know, how empowered I felt that I did it. You know, it's there's something just so unburdening about when you obviously when you do it the right way, you know, you don't want to create problems, but but when you give feedback in a in a productive way, it just feels so empowering and so freeing. And um, you know, that's one of the things when when we talk about the the delaying and the timeliness, and I coach clients, we'll talk through some of those scenarios and they'll tell me how they knew they should have had this conversation months ago, but they kept putting it off because we can think of a million reasons. And I tell them, like, even if the conversation doesn't go the way you hope it will go, you will feel so much better because you had the conversation. Right. That weight will be lifted. The million what if scenarios you're running through your brain, you know, just have the conversation and you will feel so much better. And if it doesn't go well, well, then you can deal with that. But, you know, you need to at least you tried. Yes, you need to just go there and and have the conversation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

And you bring up such a good point because when you do sit silent, and I don't know where I've recently heard this from, but there's like whenever you clash with your own values, your happiness goes down, your productivity goes down. It's like all of these things. It's so when you're speaking up, giving feedback, feeling empowered, it sounds like you align with those values that you have for yourself and for the organization. And you're just when you say that, it's a weight lifted off of you because you're aligning those values with what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love that. That's that's that's a great way to think about it. And that's yeah, that's I'm I I don't know. Do you do enneagrams or any of that? So I have not done done that officially. I'm very familiar.

SPEAKER_02 29:44

Um, and I think informally I kind of know where I fall, but um Well, I'm definitely a one and ones love to do the right thing. So when I don't get feedback or it's like weighing on me, it weighs really heavy on me. And it's just one of those things where I would think that's somewhere in my values where it's like, oh, I need to give this feedback. I'm scared, but if I don't say something, I'm gonna feel worse.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:11

So was there a point, because it sounds like you've kind of focused on feedback in general. At what point in your career did you kind of realize how important it was, or what kind of uh was a highlight of that like career shift?

SPEAKER_01 30:26

Yeah. I think mostly for me, because I realized throughout my career how important communication was. I mean, it really communication is at the heart of everything. You know, every relationship we have comes down to communication professionally, personally, customer service, all of it is communication. Um, and I realized that the quality of my experience with an employer and with a supervisor and with a team really came down to communication. That that was just that's really was the make or break for the quality of that experience and that relationship. And another key facet of that was feedback, both in terms of when I was receiving it and the way I was receiving it, when I wasn't receiving it, and you know, as a leader, seeing for myself how important that was to be an effective leader. And again, both giving and receiving, you know, demonstrating that willingness to do both. Um, I just for me, I mean, there's certainly a lot of things that go into being an effective leader and in in in a corporate culture. But when I really narrowed it down, it came down to communication. And then, yeah, ultimately feedback was just such a a key ingredient of that experience.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

That's so true. And they you are completely right. They do come almost, I would say, enter entirely intertwine in how it's kind of working. Um would you mind walking through a few scenarios of feedback that you've either seen as a consultant or in your personal life? And we could do like a good example and then a bad example to kind of give some uh some guidance for those that are listening in, and they can use it in their own world.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

Yeah. Um, yeah, thinking about this, I have examples from both, both from actually from, you know, from a work environment and also from uh, you know, from a coaching perspective. Um, one of the the examples I can think of that was, well, I kind of gave one example of not great earlier, the whole, you know, what's wrong with you? Are you are you lazy? Kind of that's that's not good feedback. Um you know, I've also seen uh where leaders will micromanage and nitpick, and they like to put that under the umbrella or the disguise of saying they're giving feedback, but that's not really feedback, that's micromanaging and nitpicking. Yeah. Um, and or workplace bullying, um, which is really what was going on with the example of, you know, what's wrong with you? Are you lazy? Wow. Um so yeah, you know, one example, there was um I was working on this this team, and one of the team members, we were getting ready to present this final product to to the client, and he sent an email with a list of things for us to to consider. And there were, they weren't even technically errors, you know, in the email, but it was just grammatical preference, you know, uh just nuance. And the lead on this project emailed everybody and tore apart his email, nitpicked his email, like in purple text, said, you know, don't don't make things that are possessive that aren't. And this is how you do this. And have you heard that every time somebody uses this phrase, they have to pay me money, which I guess was supposed to be a joke, but it didn't come across as a joke. So, you know, back an email, not a good idea. No, it is not. It is not. Um, so yeah, I mean, just nitpicking like that um on this email that went to everybody at a crunch time in the project. And this individual had worked his butt off, you know, for this project. And so, and I'm sure that that person, that lead would say, Oh, well, I was just giving feedback. That's not productive feedback, that's not helpful. Um, so that would be one thing I would say is don't don't nitpick, don't micromanage, and just put that under the umbrella of of feedback. And and again, don't make it personal, don't make it a value judgment. Um, in terms of some one where a coaching client where things were not necessarily overly effective, and we talked through it, and they were able to kind of move to an effective uh approach. So he worked for a very large uh global company, and they were going through a big shift in project management. And um, they were dealing with teams in different countries, um, shifting a lot of their processes. And the way it was initially happening, it was just senior management, you know, top-down, traditional. This is the new directive, this is how it's gonna be. Um, and people were struggling to comply with the new processes. And um the way that the feedback was happening to try and get them to comply was really missing the mark. And they were the team members were getting frustrated, feeling like management didn't understand, and there was just a lot of pushback that was happening. And so my client was now in charge of these teams and was asking me, what can we do to try and make this better? Yeah. Um and so we talked through ways of, I said, if they are legitimately not following processes intentionally, they're just not doing it. Yes, then you need to, there needs to be accountability for that. There needs to be honest conversation about that that needs to change. Um, and and so call that out. You know, say this is the new process. Um, I'd like to work with you on how we can make this better moving forward. Are there obstacles that are preventing from you from being able to do this? Are there things that we aren't aware of? What's, you know, what's getting in the way? What are your concerns? What are the challenges? You know, yes, hold them accountable, but get their input. You know, maybe there's a very simple reason why they're they're pushing back or there's obstacles that that weren't considered. So get their feedback, get their buy-in and work together on how you can game plan moving forward. And that was something that then, you know, was a big game changer for for him and for the team. And they were able to do it then, to work it out and come up with a process together. And since they had that buy-in, the team members were then more willing to go ahead and, you know, move forward. Even if they still didn't love it, they were able to move forward and and work through the processes as senior management wanted them to.

SPEAKER_02 37:11

Yeah, it sounds like you were able to, in addition to the feedback, create part of the change management process so that they would be bought in on the new process, which is great. Like that, like to receive feedback and then kind of bring them in on the change management process itself, they probably felt more appreciative than just being told, go do.

SPEAKER_01 37:34

Right. Well, and for me, that is that is a key part of the feedback process, is you're sharing the feedback, but then the whole point of feedback is to learn and grow and improve. So a part of that conversation should be okay, what are the action steps for moving forward? So is it on an individual basis? There are things that you're going to either continue to do or not do, or yeah, from the team perspective, um, what can we do as a team to work together to improve these processes? So yeah, um, it's great that you picked up on that. And that's yeah, a key piece for me of that whole feedback process is the action steps for moving forward.

SPEAKER_02 38:13

Okay. So, I mean, we've talked about giving feedback, receiving feedback, kind of a process. We've talked about the importance of it, a few scenarios. What else should people think about or do while they're going through a feedback process?

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Oh, yeah. Wow, that's a that's a really big and good question. Um yeah, I think again, the biggest things, just making sure that there is a safe space. I know I mentioned that, but it really is so important. Um and sometimes it may be a matter of asking someone, um, you know, I'd like to have a conversation with you. I have some feedback I'd like to share. Is this an okay time? Or are you open to us having that conversation? Um, you know, making sure that they really are in a space to receive that. That's just, I can't talk enough about the importance of having that that safe space um both to give and and receive.

SPEAKER_02 39:09

Um so you're talking not only a physical space, but literally a time space. Like you mentioned time, like a good time to make sure, but if it is it a good time for the person receiving feedback too. Right.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

Yeah. And look, sometimes as a leader, you if there is a truly problematic behavior that needs to be addressed, um, I mean, do your best to maybe not give the feedback as the person's supposed to be leaving for the day, you know, the last five minutes. There are times that you're going to just go ahead and have to give that feedback if it's a really problematic behavior. But if that's not the case, um, yeah, just try to be mindful of the time, timing, you know, do they have some huge deadline that they're really freaking out about? And you just want to give them some feedback on something, you know, if it's not critical to that moment, be mindful. Um but I think it's it's also just about, yeah, the dynamic between, yes, both the timing, but also the relationship that you have with that individual. Have you created a relationship-based space where they're able to hear what you have to say and they're not being threatened? Um and so that's just it's really important that that whole dynamic of feeling like you can receive the feedback from someone and you're you're doing it in an appropriate way. Um the other thing I guess that I would share is just how to receive feedback effectively. Um, because that's a that's a big piece. Uh I mentioned earlier that a lot of people, when we start to, when we're realizing we're getting some feedback, our initial response is to go ahead and justify, clarify, like, oh, that's not what I meant, or oh, you don't understand. And you know, we have this tendency to want to just explain away the behavior. And I really encourage people not to do that. When you, when somebody's giving you feedback, resist that urge to respond immediately and give clarification, justification. Just listen. And then after they've shared the feedback, tell them, you know, thank you for giving me this feedback. I appreciate that. Even if you don't agree with it, just say I appreciate you coming to me with this feedback. Um, if it's something simple and you can just say, okay, I appreciate that feedback, uh, it that's fine. But if it's something that's really triggered an emotional response for you, then I would say, again, thank you for the feedback. I'd really like to take some time and process it. I value what you've shared. I value your opinion and your perspective. I'd like to take some time to process it and then circle back with you. Is that okay? And, you know, take a day, you know, leave the room, leave the office or leave the Zoom and allow yourself to feel those feelings of maybe being hurt or feeling frustrated, whatever. Um, and then give yourself some time to process. And even if you don't agree with what the person has shared, see if you can find something within what they shared that you recognize, either you can see it from their perspective, something you could change. Um, and then after you've had a chance to process it, and this is another um blog post I have, and I actually have some prompts on the website to help you process through the feedback. After you've done that, go ahead and actually circle back with the person. Like that's an important piece. Don't say, Oh, I'll circle back with you and then not. So circle back. And and again, if you agree with their feedback, you can say that. You can say, you know, I had a chance to process it. And you know what? You're right. I could do that better. Um, if you don't agree with the feedback or all of it, you can say, you can acknowledge that. You can say, again, I really appreciate you coming to me with the feedback. I value that conversation. I'll be honest, I don't completely agree with everything that you shared, but I can see your perspective. I can see how you saw it that way. And I recognize that I can do this differently moving forward. Um, so that's a really helpful way to get better at receiving feedback. That's probably one of the other things I would just share.

SPEAKER_02 43:10

I love all of this because it's respectful. That's, I think, the main thing is when we become defensive, sometimes our viewpoints or our like we just become a different type of person. Defensive, we become critical. It's it's like you are what you were talking about. You just become this person who's like, no, I'm defending myself now. And instead, it's just absorb it, think it through. Does it apply? Um, and then coming back with a respectful message because that'll be received so much better on both sides. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:53

Yeah. Because if somebody's coming to you with feedback, they want to know that that you've heard them. You know, they want to know. That they were seen and they were heard. And so by thanking them for the feedback, taking the time to process and then circling back, again, even if you don't agree with it, you're saying, I heard you. Like I see you, I heard you, I value you, and I'm acknowledging that. And here's what I've taken from it. Here's the lesson I've learned. And that's really all people want. People want to be seen and heard and valued and that feel like they matter. And I think that's where we do get so frustrated when we don't get feedback because we feel like we don't matter. If you if I don't, if you don't find it important enough to come to me and give me feedback, both positive and critical, then I feel insignificant and I feel like I'm not that I don't matter. And that's that's and or if you're giving feedback to someone in a really toxic way, again, it feels like I don't, you don't value me. And that's really at the heart of all of it. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:56

Uh it is, it's extremely, extremely important. And that's why I just I wish it was practiced more, talked about more. I wish it was like part of our day-to-day because it is so important. It does create those communication avenues. It creates the emotional avenues. It creates the opportunity to kind of discover who you are and how you approach possible conflict, possible relationship issue issues, possible, there's like so many things that it deals with on day-to-day. And I I mean, I don't know if you know this. Is this a part of like American culture? Is this like we bring in niceties and we just uh kind of like, oh, like feedback. I actually now hold on. Now this is like a whole nother thing for me because I don't know if this is like in other cultures, I don't know if it's completely avoided, if it's actually like, oh no, they just straight up give feedback. Is this just an American USA thing?

SPEAKER_01 45:50

I don't think it's just an American thing, but I think certainly it is an American thing. I there are other cultures I I know that are, yes, they're more kind of blunt and forthright. Um, and I I want to name a couple, but then I'm gonna be afraid I'm gonna be wrong. I don't want to misappropriate. But um, you know, I I I know there are other cultures and uh Russia comes to mind. Um, and I I think that I'm correct on this one. Um, but if anybody does any fact checking, don't be mad.

SPEAKER_02 46:19

Um yeah, if like if there's if you uh send us emails at leadintoitpodcast at gmail.com, I'm genuinely curious now how other cultures receive feedback because this whole uh interview, I've been approaching it as though my experience, which is strictly USA style, corporate America military. So it's really different.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

Yeah, I think there absolutely are other cultures where it is just a part of the the dialogue to just be forthright and to and to say. And and I think then as Americans, it can be hard because we're not used to that. We're used to wrapping things up in this pretty little bow. Um, and as you said, the niceties. And it's not about being rude, it's just about being honest and forthright and candid. Um, so I I do think it is cultural. I think we we have a tendency to yeah, to want to gloss over the the negative parts, and um we struggle with yeah, with having those kind of candid conversations.

SPEAKER_02 47:19

Yeah. Oh man, sorry. I'm opening up a can of worms. Now I'm very curious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's it's I had uh somebody on my podcast recently who's from Australia, lives overseas somewhere. And so now I'm like, oh, I need to be more aware of like these conversations are happening all over the world just in different ways. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah, yeah. Um, okay. So I think I'm gonna end this interview with two questions. The first one is if there was a best first step for everyone to take when it comes to feedback, what is an action step that they can take following listening to this podcast interview?

SPEAKER_01 47:59

I would say the the first step that I often recommend to people is yeah, to start with you. And so start by requesting feedback. And again, we talked about some ways to do that in a in a non-threatening way, both for yourself and the person you're asking, but but request feedback and be genuinely open to receiving it and then and to receive it effectively. That's you know, anytime I'm I'm training or consulting or talking with people that I say is the first step is start with you and um really begin with with asking for feedback and genuinely receiving it. I like that a lot.

SPEAKER_02 48:33

And it does, it if you're open to it, you set that tone for whoever's around you. And I will say, like on that note too, when I've asked for feedback, because even in college, when I was going through certain programs, whatever it might be, I was very like at the end of every type of meeting, I was like, hey, do you have any feedback for me? And usually I would catch everyone by surprise. It would be like, oh my gosh, I've never been asked this question before. So just be aware that that might happen. And um, in fact, the one uh person I asked, he was like, Yeah, actually that's like super random and it's not that big of a deal. But you kind of slouch in class and it makes you seem very uninterested, but I actually know you are. And I was like, oh, that's such a great piece of feedback. I would have, but I would have never received it had I not asked. Right. So um, yes, just be aware. And then the last question I want to ask you is what is a book recommendation that you would give to the audience? It can be strictly about feedback or a book that you have found useful in your leadership journey or a personal book that you just really enjoy. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 49:35

Well, I'll do first a shameless plug for my book that'll be recorder, um, but is is will be published uh October 1st called Elevate Connection. Um, but aside from my shameless plug uh for my for my book, um I would say, I mean, you mentioned Brene Brown. Anything by her is fantastic. Um, and thinking about feedback and um a really great book for that subject specifically is Radical Candor by Kim Scott. Fantastic read. Um has a new book out now. Um, and I'm I'm blanking on the title. Um, it's like just do work or something like that, something like that. She has a new book, but but Radical Candor for sure is a fantastic read um in terms of how to get more comfortable um with giving and receiving feedback and just that whole dynamic. It's a really, really good resource.

SPEAKER_02 50:30

I've heard it, I haven't read it yet, and I need to read that. I've just heard wonderful things about it. So um I'm gonna read it so everyone else should read it too.

unknown 50:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 50:41

And then we talked about your website a little bit. What is uh your website link, and I'll put it in the show notes as well. And where else can uh people find you?

SPEAKER_01 50:50

Sure. Yeah, so the website is uh SLRleadership.com. Um, or if you look up SLR Leadership Consulting. And um on all things social, I am at Dr. Kelly Waltman, D R Kelly Waltman. Um and if people so so that's find me on social there. But also with the book, if you go to dr Kellywaltman.com, um, and if you pre-order the book, there's a bunch of bonuses there that if if people are interested, like training and and that kind of stuff. Um, so just helpful, helpful resources. But um, yeah, website and social are are great places to to connect and clubhouse. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:33

That's actually how we met on Clubhouse. So it's great. Um, well, thank you so much, Kelly, for coming on the show. I've learned so much. I will dive into all these resources you talked about because I'm actually taking on a leadership role in a couple weeks of it. This is like my main fear. I feel like this is something that everyone just has like a fear about. They want to do a good job. So um, I will personally be diving into the resources you talked about. And thanks again for coming on the show.

SPEAKER_01 51:58

Absolutely. And feel free to call me. We can we can talk to you and uh I can be your your your role-playing buddy. Uh yes.

SPEAKER_02 52:05

Oh my gosh, maybe we'll record them, then not say names and stuff. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 52:12

Well, thank you so much. This was so much fun. Thank you, Sarah. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 52:16

Thanks for listening to another episode of Lead Into It. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean a lot to me if you would leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify to help future listeners. If you want to learn more about the podcast or me, go to leadintoit.co, that's leadintoit.co. Thanks again.