Impact Hustlers - Entrepreneurs with Social Impact

66 - Affordable Housing in the Sky - Arthur Kay of Skyroom

January 25, 2021 Maiko Schaffrath Episode 66
Impact Hustlers - Entrepreneurs with Social Impact
66 - Affordable Housing in the Sky - Arthur Kay of Skyroom
Show Notes Transcript
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Maiko Schaffrath:

You are listening to Impact Hustlers and I am your host, Maiko Schaffrath. I have made it my mission to inspire the next generation of entrepreneurs to solve some of the world's biggest social and environmental problems, and for this reason, I am speaking to some of the best entrepreneurs out there who are solving problems, such as food waste, climate change, poverty and homelessness. My goal is that Impact Hustlers will inspire you, either by starting an impact business yourself, by joining the team of one or by taking a small step, whatever that may be towards being part of the solution to the world's biggest problems.

In today's episode, I speak with Arthur K the founder and CEO of Skyram Arthur actually joined a podcast before at a time representing his company, bio bean coffee, recycling company. And if you're keen to learn more about bio bean, actually check out episode 30, two of impact hustlers, and you'll hear Athen me. Talk about coffee recycling quite a lot, which was an amazing and interesting episode to host. As you may know, from the name, sky room is actually building rooms and the sky, and more specifically on the rooftops of existing buildings that are currently vacant and it's predicted. By 2050, that 70% of the world's population will actually live in big cities. So people are moving into big cities all the time. And at the same time, London is really a prime example of that, of a ever-growing city worth property and rent prices increasing all the time. And with COVID right now, it's become clearer. I think. That some of the most needed key workers in the city, such as doctors, nurses, and even firefighters can not necessarily afford to live in central London, often living outside of the city that affects the quality of public services as well. Not only their quality of life and their own mental and physical health, but also how quick can some of the key workers actually be where they needed to be. So sky room actually. Was founded by Arthur to solve this problem. Building affordable housing on vacant rooftops, starting in London. And the goal is really to get key workers to move back into the heart of the city. And it's great to have you on the show. Arthur again, Michael, thanks so much for having me on today. Yeah, absolutely. No. I'm really excited to have you back all the time and I'm keen to learn more about Skyram because we've talked about it before every now and then. And I think in the very early days before the company even existed, I think he taught me about it a little bit and, uh, I was really keen to explore more and I think. With Skyram, you're really going back to your roots as architecture graduate. So I'd love to learn a bit more off what motivated you to leave bio bean and launched sky room and go back to your roots in some way? No. Great question, Mike. You're exactly right. So I trained as an opposite and then set up by being actually just straight out of architecture school. And you've really seen Skyrim from concept to where we are now in terms of obviously with fast forward 2030. I mean, sharing the boardroom together there and, you know, having set it up together, it's really gone from, I guess, the number of an idea, probably I guess two, three years ago, almost maybe two and a half years ago to we launched our white paper with Richard Rogers and with UCL in September, 2018. And now, you know, fast forward a couple of years, we're now in planning actually for our first homes and I've got 15 homes in the plan process and a couple of hundred homes. That will be delivered in the coming years and all of which will be homes for queue up. And so, whereas a incredibly exciting point and the key thing now for us is making sure we can excuse on that, on these plans and make sure that we don't get to add ourselves to others. Yeah. Can you share where those homes are being built yet? Like where in London are you going to focus on? Yeah, absolutely. So I'm not is, as you said into our models all around how we can get London's key workers. To live in the city Bay, basically give their lives to support. And so 54% of all of London's key workers can't even afford to live in London of those ones who can't afford to live in London. They're spending a huge amount of their deans commuting on average, a key workers commuted over two hours, and everything's going to go to 60% of their income on housing. So there's a really expensive, really time consuming thing to do. And the interviews we've done with key workers often, it just means that that quality of life is incredibly bad because often what they're doing is doing things like commuting for my central hospital. And because they're often working shift patterns or unusual times a day, or for me that those transport ins have broken down and not working in that weird time of day, it means that there's a lot of that income on housing and it was a real labor of love. And our interest is trying to make sure those people who are giving their lives for live needs, where they work. What do you mean on top of the hospital? I just mean within a 15, 20 minute commute, so they can walk to work cycle to work or get a piece of public transport to work, but not have a really complex commute. And that's kind of, I guess the three elements of what Steve Jen do is trying to build. Really high quality homes. They're designed by top architects. We're working with and meeting architecture practices, all of London in a great location. So these need to be in the center of the city. So it's your question on where they are, these terms all in zone one, unless you gave to zone two and within a 10 to 20 minute walk of X schools, hospitals, you know, one stream of work within two minute walk of Trafalgar square. A few of them are within just 10 minute walk of UCL. So really amazing central locations. And then the final piece being that we need to be affordable and sustainable to need to be affordable jerky as these can't just be expensive luxury penthouses to live in because these are all going to be credible basis to live. If you use across London who usually designed home. So you can see how these could quickly start saying for millions of pounds for an apartment, but we need to make sure that they stay affordable all the time. And then they're sustainable in terms of, from the environmental perspective. So that's kind of, uh, the, uh, the model. And then we have these first few projects with live and in first, I guess, a hundred or so homes or we'll use very, very central engine locations. Wow. Amazing. How do you ensure that actually affordable? And do you prioritize key workers? Is there like some sort of, kind of queuing system for those properties so that you make sure the right people move in? Or, I mean, I guess if I own one of these big buildings, I guess you're not owning the buildings that you build, those housing that this housing on top off, right? Like. I probably want to maximize my profits. First of all, how do you make it affordable and prevent me from saying, ah, I'd rather have a luxury flat on top of this roof. And I guess your audience might be primarily for entrepreneurs or aspiring entrepreneurs. And so if any key workers out there, the way you get one of the storm homes is that yeah, just sign up through our website, which is skyrim.london, and you can get on a waiting list. And what we do is we simply markets the home solely to key workers. So if you're a nurse, a teacher, a doctor, a firefighter, that's the way to get on the wait list and you can get an amazing, beautiful, affordable home to grow up in and to live in a zoo. Maybe your first time or something like that. In terms of how it works from a business model perspective, because as you say, why would you know how to keep these afforded every time? And if I were just a greedy landlord, how do I make sure that actually this is the best way to make money for my rooftop? So the first question we work with different local authorities and what an ad is registered providers. So these are people who are. Uh, regulated by the government and provide affordable homes, different categories in society. So we work when we deliver the homes, we work with those which two providers who in turn rent those, or sell those two few workers. So there's not, skarn doing that directly. We work with this government regulated organizations who didn't do that in terms of why as a, as a landlord, would I be interested in that and what was not actually to go around working with the greedy, private landlord that you're referring to? Michael, it's more actually around. Trying to find aligned partnerships with very, very, very large existing landlords through whom we can deliver jointly these projects. And interestingly, and I certainly didn't know this when I started working on the company, but interestingly, the biggest landlords in London, or in fact, which to providers. So the government is the biggest landlord in London followed by local authorities. So different councils, it might be Camden. It might be Hackney. It might be suburb. It might be Lewisham. It might be Greenwich. These landlords. These local authorities are huge handbooks. For example, submit 42% of the borough of suburb amounts of land that they own within those areas. But also they are set up to try and to never afford one social homes to people within the bar. I said, what we try and do is we try and find partners who own large suites at the city with whom we can work to then deliver our products, which is these useful precision manufactured homes in the rooftops of their existing buildings. So it's really trying to find what I guess might be seen as kind of a public private partnership between us as a technology and development company, you know, early stage startup technology department company, working with these fairly big gambles and trying to unlock that value. And I guess the work that you and I both do at fossil 2030, I was trying to find that finding, which is not just economic value for. Austin Southern in terms of the people doing it, but trying to deliver economic value, social value through homes, Cuba, and then environmental value through making these homes incredibly sustainable, low carbon, and not have a big impact on the environment to make that happen. You're actually working with councils and government right here. And I have had quite a lot of stakeholders that you need to manage to make these things happen. Right. How does Skyram relate to that? Let's say council housing. And how do you see Skyram in relationship to that? Do you think, like there's like a new type of vision for council housing as well? Or is it an entirely different problem to solve housing for key workers? They're they're different problems, but they're very much related. And I guess from an overarching perspective, it's that we recognize that government recognizes every council recognizes that we need to deliver more homes to tackle the overarching issue of housing affordability. So everyone within that, you know, whether it's one end of this spectrum might be the homelessness crisis in Midland. There might be social rents in council housing on the top end. They might be, you know, just for people who are living in private rented sector or just buying a home. If you were a first-time buyer, it was just fairly expensive. So it's the whole spectrum of their issues and challenges within that whole built environment, industry, no company, and no organization can tackle, but we think there are amazing challenges out there who are attacking the homelessness crisis. We will shelter, lots of, you know, there's a number of different companies who are working in different solutions there, different councils organization, you work in social housing and counseling housing. I'm only issues that currently there's no government program for key worker housing. So there's actually nothing out there now that tries to fill this. What we think is a huge need. And so we already set up Skyrim saying there are solutions happening. Hey, solutions happening again. So you just happy to be here, but we're just in this bitch in the middle, which seems to have been overlooked. And I've been these in London then nearly 1 million kilos. So it's not a small market. There are a lot of key workers. These are people who are getting up crack of Dawn and doing a seriously holidays work. And they get, because they're paid by government, they often don't get paid that well, but also because they've got a Saturday job, they often can't, they often don't qualify. The council housing. So they fall through this weird gap that they are paid enough and have a job. That means that they are in, should be in the private sector, but actually on captured and picked up by some of these camps with housing. And so our idea is to try and fill this void in shine know service. We call it. Um, helped her to help out the coffee, people who look after us. And so, you know, these key workers have a tough time. And I think when we wrote a white paper with UCL in 2018, key workers were quite a weird in a group to be focusing on a lot of people that even people in central government, even. The mayor's office. People would often say like, my chemo is unusual, but I think the one thing that's come from COVID, which has been beneficial to our business and what we're working on has been that suddenly everyone's like, well, obviously you're doing the housing who isn't these days kind of thing. So it's now everyone now recognizes, you know, the whole Catholic areas, movement, et cetera, et cetera, recognizes that you get that. We are lucky because, and this is one way in automating that we can try and say, thank you. Yeah. Tell us a bit more about that actually. How COVID changed the trajectory of your business. You started about two years ago, I think roughly. And what has changed now and what is maybe also the problems that COVID has brought to the surface now, right? Like for decision-makers to be like, Oh, Shit actually, doctor can't be quick. And the hospital within, in like a few minutes, because they live like two hours away from London or something like that, is that problems they encounter or what's the typical problem? I think it's those sorts of stories that you hear time and time again. And I think with COVID, you know, this is what a lot of people are saying about it, but it hasn't created new problems. It's accelerated or enhanced existing underlying issues. And I think that's definitely the case with key worker housing, but it's not suddenly, everyone's like, Oh my God, this is now a problem. It's that this has always been really, really difficult and a really challenging thing for people to live two hours away from work spending over 60% of their income on its. And I'd say over half of London's keyboard is not even living within the city. And because of that, they're now able to actually accelerate some of these trends in China. It brings it to a fall. And so in terms of what that's generally meant in terms of, for COVID and for Scotland, it's meant that mainly policymakers are just more receptive to hearing the story. So one piece we've mentioned is actually a very pioneering piece of legislation brought forward by the new leader of Suffolk council. How's that Williams. I mean, he's a pretty amazing politician, pretty inspiring guy. And he brought forward in March, which was one of the first counselors in the UK to bring forward legislation saying that Southern council is now going to start delivering intermediate affordable housing for key workers, you know, to you and me and Mike, that sounded like a pretty unexciting statement, but actually from a council perspective and from the name, he's now leads with the council to be taking such a progressive and Blue's amazing step. And so if that was March, 2019 on March, 2018, that would never have happened. But, you know, someone like peer really mean in the forefront in March, 2020 saying we're going to try and tackle this problem in our local bar. And that's what we're really excited about. You know, funding, politicians and policy makers like Karen and others who are fighting, fighting the fight for Yeah. And when you implement these projects, you already mentioned you're working on a bunch of them and what's your role exactly. Right? Like you already mentioned, you're actually not the landlord, for example. Right. Are you like an architecture firm? Are you like a developer? How can we put Skyram into a box or does it not fit any. No it does. So we refer to ourselves as the technology and urban development company. And so that's what we provide is actually the number of different technologies. We've you mentioned we've had some support from governments, so we've had some amazing support from people like climate care, innovate UK, a UK research and innovation ordinance survey, EGM, land registry, and all that provides essentially as part of suites of funding and also with our engineers and our designers, we've developed a range of different technologies. The geospatial mapping technology and exoskeleton technologies and precision manufacturing, housing technology, or which has proprietary Skype technology, which means that we can deliver unique offerings to the market in terms of essentially licensing and technology deals and consultancy deals for that separately. What we've done. As we've actually raised what is called the key worker whom is fund and that's over 100 million pounds in front of him that we raised from a large UK based real estate company. And that money is going to be invested solely in key worker housing in partnership with which to provide it. So these are local authorities and housing associations. So what this essentially allows us to do is become, we have the technology on this now also immediately have this developments on. We now go forward and combine those two together and bring the technology and the capital and our defendant's expertise to build these new homes. So that's the kind of a, we're a small business as you know, my third, but it's that kind of thing. We're trying to try and think maybe in terms of our offering, because what we found in this particular market is that we're competing against fairly, very big organizations. You know, it's against often the local authority will, instead of installed a new home security is other, um, counselors, States. They might just knock down the cost of States and build a tobacco. And we're saying actually it doesn't need to be, knock it down and build something bigger and might take five years. And it probably won't even end up being counted. Housing would probably just be private housing. We're interesting how you can actually find ways against this. You know, it's this fast 25 30 shared ownership model. Let's say find ways that you can keep existing residents there, refurbish and improve their buildings, but also, still unlock that value by building these new homes in the SBS. Got it. Amazing. I mean, that fund is a amazing accomplishment. I don't think that anything like this exists before for key workers. I don't think so. Right. First, as far as we are aware, first of its kind anywhere in the world and that launches and you're getting the cause that launches officially in January, 2021. And it launches with a big Martin program going to local authorities housing services to try and get them involved in that design process. We've got some amazing commissioners of the fund as well are going to be involved in selecting the best buildings and working with them to find the best places to fund as well. So it's an incredibly exciting time in terms of the companies. Amazing. I'd love to dig a bit deeper on the design principles you're using when you're designing these homes. Because I believe that's actually also sitting within sky room, right? Like you're freely thought rethought. How could somebody like have a nice place to live on top of existing buildings? What principles are you following there and how do you make it a homely place? Yeah. So a number of different design principles. We do work with different architecture firms and interior design firms and engineering firms who work with us on the ground floor. But from I guess, a high level Skyrim concept in terms of that home design is first of all there, what we call precision manufactured homes. These are homes, which aren't typically when you're building a home. Almost all homes in the UK are built with basically a bunch of materials and a bunch of blokes turn up to sites and build a building. And that's how almost everything happens. Our approach is saying, especially because most of these are existing buildings that exist there currently. And they're very high on top of that. If people live or work in their buildings. So what we do is we instead build the homes offsite in a factory in UK office supply chain, where you can build these centers because those are sites. That means you build a using. Robots in very, very, very little waste, really high quality material builds in a safe sheltered environments and then bring them to sites and then creating them onto the top of the existing building. So that means that you bring your disruption on site down from the building a hundred fish, and he takes you one to three years depending on it. But if you can do this, it might take several months to build your building. Off-site in a factory. And the time onsite is literally sometimes things. So we would use that site time. The other principle is around looking at how we can make these homes as environmentally friendly as possible. So that's around again, not only construction methods, also using materials, making sure that they're or circular that it can be recycled that we use. And also that they're, what's referred to as self finishing. So instead of having a wall, which is built up over this kind of work plasterboard plaster, and then a paint or a final finish, simply using material, which is the wall itself. So it might be a apply wall, for example, and the new surface, the finished product, then finally building the homestead passive house standard. So this is the highest environmental standards. Any home can be built to turn backwards, a whole bunch of different regulatory, intangible compliance elements with it. But really try and make sure that they're really well-insulated outside homes, et cetera. And that precision manufacturing piece means that you can do that overarching piece, whether it's all of the, how it just trying to make them, you know, these are all technical things that you know, you and I get excited about, but the most exciting thing about most important thing, not all of this is not whether it's passive house standard or use this widget that is around all these nice, comfortable places to live. And so our thesis is make homes that anyone would be proud to live in. And too often, we think you find affordable. They think it's there for cheap and it's crap. And we don't really like the quality and actually already has been that actually good design doesn't have to cost the new, there's a great quote. I wish it was, you know, nothing's too good for ordinary people and it's just actually, if could be particularly what we're doing is we're simply doing these designs and repeat from them several times. So this design doesn't have to be incredibly expensive. It can just be high quality design. And because the main thing about all of these homes is that they're up in the sky. They are in on the rooftops of existing buildings. And the benefits of that is you get amazing views. And so these are some of these homes. I know I mentioned the one earlier, it's in two minute walk from Trafalgar square, where you can literally from the roof of the building, it's going to be square. Would open windows. It's amazing places. And again, one project to work on down in Bermondsey. Again, same idea. You can incredible views up to the shard of course, to assist you in London. So just trying to celebrate the obvious things know natural lines is good views, it's nature, et cetera, but doing so in a way we're not kind of doing, you know, kind of a. Russian Orthodox penthouse with kind of a platinum walls in purple furniture is trying to keep it really simple high quality materials. And, you know, yes, there's more is there is the French were we're taking, Oh, that sounds really beautiful. I got to, I think, retrain and become a doctor or a firefighter can apply. Well, I want us to genuinely make it that's part of the ambition. Probably the idea being that these people are their idea around like you have, is, came from they're the most trusted and the most respected people within our society. So teachers, doctors, firefighters, if you look at any profession that, that they're frustrating as weighted by other people or through their fit neighbors, how respected they are. By other people, or even indeed, if you look at the most aspirational professions from a 15 year old, what do they want to be when they grow up? All surveys points to that key worker. The top of those tests, teachers, doctors, firefighters, nurses are all went up there. And interestingly nurses actually got the highest trust rating in the UK at 94%. Pretty good. Wow. All right. I think let's move on into your entrepreneurial journey, especially with Skyram. I mean, your entrepreneurial journey, didn't start with sky room, but I'd love to focus a bit more on like some of the lessons learned and the difficulties with building a company like this, and I'm sure the set of challenges he's facing now are completely different to what you face in bio bean and. There are definitely completely different to any sort of software startup that's maybe not dealing with brick and mortar and councils and governments. So what would you say throughout the journey since starting sky room has been like some of the biggest lessons learned or one of the mistakes you've made that you didn't quite realize? Like what can you share with entrepreneurs that are looking to get into a similar li complicated, great question. I think the. Starting with the commonalities between the businesses and also that was even built with foster 2013 and other entrepreneurs who we both know is that things sadly take a very, very long time. And even, I guess, to be an entrepreneur, you have to almost by definition, be an optimist. Um, I think that the world can be a better place and that you can help it be. So, which is quite optimistic. I mean, you get this tool starting point. And so I think recognizing that even if you lay out what you believe to be a conservative plan, that is going to be still some way off. So setting out with that, understanding that things will take longer and not having that be existential for building in something to Jessie to that is. I guess my biggest lesson and tied to that. So I think it's the idea around patients and I, I'm very impatient person and having to deal with some of these much, much longer term project and thinking through, and not in weeks or months, but in years and sometimes even projects in decades. Is a huge, um, of mind shift. I'm still trying to get my head around. I'm 29 years old now I'm, uh, you know, two days into my second business. And you know, it's now starting to realize that this is a decades long endeavor, not a weeks or months. I think so that's the hardest thing. I think I've found to stop getting the head under there. And I guess that's to an extent then compounded by COVID. And there's a quota really from JFK as part of the Cuban missile crisis, which I spoke to my team about, um, just as we're kind of getting into COVID in understanding the level of intensity and time that we're going to be going through. And that's, you know, we recommend at the time, I'm just going to play a big factor here. But to use time as a tool, not as a couch. And what that means is saying, don't the fact that things take longer doesn't necessarily mean that you can either sit back and relax and just wait for it to happen. Or when do you that we need to get it. Angry and kind of depressed about the whole thing. It's more saying it will take time, acknowledge that, recognize that. Definitely try and keep things moving and push them, or try and find things that, that you can be doing helpful along the way that keeps the in journey. Because particularly with projects, like I mentioned earlier that we have a technology onto the business. And in fact, one of the reasons we did that was we recognized early on that building homes. Takes a long time to do just in the planning process. Anyway. So we've been in a planning process, just on one building for over a year and a half, and that's just waiting less having done those designs got already some of you slipped for 4g and then waiting, right. Question is, do you just wait and twiddle your thumbs and do nothing, or can you find other ways to be creative, to think about how you can fill your pipeline going forward, to be able to make an impact and generate revenue in the meantime, food needs additional offerings to the market. And that's really where, I guess, jeweled approach of the fund or the development arm of the technology business, or kind of come together. Is that trying to think in this longer term approach, but also this time as a tool, not as a couch, Wow. That's a really good lesson. I think combining the patients were still moving fast on everything that you can influence, right. And not lying back and waiting. Right. So this is really good lesson. How did you go about actually finding the right investors for this and really looking at a long term ambition of this? I'm sure for many investors that traditional VCs that invest in software all the time, there's so many scary parts of this. Right. And I'm sure there's probably just a subset of investors that are like, wow, this is a moonshot project. Like let's do it. And with all the challenges that are included, let's go for it. Right. Like how did he go about that? Yeah. Great question. So we took a very, very unusual approach in particularly from definitely not typical for the listeners of this podcast. I think I may have tried almost every funding method between Skyram and fossil 2030 and by beam. I think we've pretty much done everything under the sun in terms of funding. So by being funded through angel investors, crowd funding, grant funding, and venture capital firms, and also corporate venture capitalisms. So a real range of funding that fossil 2030 has been essentially bootstrapped and it's been new funding through support from the university and through some grant funding. And some sponsorship and then siren, we actually took the approach, which is so unusual for businesses days, and particularly now issues of bootstrapping and funding it ourselves through pain times and through essentially banking into profit business. So actually in our first year we were profitable and this year we were profitable and we're hopefully going to be profitable for a long time go. So the model basically is that we then did separately raise this fund, which is a separate entity, which is a. Yeah, ESG private equity, real estate fund, which will invest in projects. And that's almost is I think there's almost like a using analogy that is a venture capital fund investing in startups equivalent to anything private active real estate fund invested in real estate projects. But yeah, so we essentially just chose to say, actually, investors have a whole bunch of value to bring, and that comes in the form of contacts, advice, and capital. But they also take a lot of equity and also a lot of control. And particularly on the science, this is going to be a much longer term endeavor than I say, most VCs, uh, on a, despite what they tell you on a pick up their own pressures, they post a fund, which is typically two in seven and 12 years in terms of life cycle, where there maybe. Four to six year rats and investment varies. And so they've got their own pressures that they need to hit their needs to get better returns. And if you're one of the, you know, the model, as you know, basically works on, you'd have two or three outliers within each portfolio and you don't want to trip on quadruple down on them and let the other go to zero. And we believe that this is too for us. This is too big, an idea, and too important idea to give away that, that control that this at this stage in the business. And so, you know, we focused on. Building it ground up profitably and a long that continue. And that's really been a Testament to, not me actually, but two of my I've got two co-founders in the business. James Gerald, who's a seriously talented he's our chief investment officer, incredibly talented fundraiser, a businessman real estate developer, who is an architect by training, um, credibly sophisticated, mature Don term thinker. And that kind of combination of the three of us. Yeah, Louis James and myself as men that we can really actually step back a bit and say, what does this business deserve? You know, it's actually not really about us. It's what is this business that this idea deserve? And how can we make sure that happens and funding can come with strings that may compromise that vision. That's great to hear on that. Like what are you focusing on when you're bootstrapping the contracts you're doing already? Because obviously there's this long term goal and to projects that you're developing, are those already monetized or are you like doing stuff on the side basically to put strap? How do you manage that? Not yet. Sounds good questions, Marco. Clearly, it's always interesting. When you have an interview, he really gets the nuts, you know, who's entrepreneurial themselves and runs businesses and gets the nuts and bolts of it. Cause it does make a big difference compared to a journalist who kind of. Conceptually, you can joke about it, but yeah, the, the little questions, so we need, the hard thing for us was how can you exactly, how can you correlate your loans? Because the last thing anyone wants in a business and why venture capital is helpful, allows you to focus. You know, it means you can just do one thing and focus on that without having to worry about how you pay the rent or how you can keep the lights on in the office. And so the challenge for us was how can we correlate. So it needs to generate revenue, but also these long-term thinking and make sure we don't get drifted off track by an exciting thing, to be able to might make this a hundred thousand pounds, but isn't actually going to times into long-term ambitions. So what we've essentially worked to do is find really forward-thinking partners, some of these big landlords to most referring to earlier and find ways to work with them through the early stage of a project, but to monetize those early stages with their mates, what's referred to in the industry as a development manager. So essentially we run that early stage process. And sometimes we'll also licensing our technology through what we refer to as geospatial mapping studies or implementation studies to then prove that opportunity and ask you in layman's terms, what that looked like in terms of our business, that looks like a very large landlord who comes to us and say, we know that something can be done with our buildings. We're not sure where our buildings are, which ones will work and which ones weren't. Can you do a survey study across our portfolio, which might be a thousand buildings. Just say which ones of these could be suitable for airspace development and which of them is not the most suitable and for the ones that are suitable, what does that look like in happened? So we start off with doing those studies saying. This is possible. This is impossible. This is impossible. Isn't it possible? And we use obviously, especially marketing technology to do guys and a whole bunch of different criteria feed into that. And then from that, we then will develop massing studies and essentially do some more technical design in saying the structure, understand the local residents, et cetera, et cetera. So then say, okay, well you showed us a thousand buildings, 900 or 850 don't work 50 a marginal, but these 100 would be perfect. And then we may develop some of those to then become projects that then feed icon. So that's the kind of model it's easy for me to say now, but that took a lot of thinking and work and trying to, you know, that hard bit up front to work out how we can retain that acting company with team that's ownership and control, but also make some revenue in the short term to be able to keep the lights on amazing. I'm a big fan of that approach. And it's great to see that even companies that solve like. The type of problems that are considered moonshot, or maybe a bit more out of the conventional, uh, yeah, you're not, uh, starting a corner shop, but you're actually solving something that hasn't been done before can still bootstrap. I think it's really amazing to see we're running out of time almost. So I have one more question for you about the future of sky room and the future of the world, our society, and that's all about how do you think the world will look like in about 10 years? Sky room succeeds. So there's an interesting thing about cities and the future that we always think the future is a long, long way away. And that will be very different from what it is today. So my answer is probably a bit banal, but the reality is that, or any developed city in the world about between 80 and 90% of it already exists in terms of it's all we've been built. And so the next 30 years things will change, but they're going to put in incremental. And it's very, very, very unusual for there to be. Even, you know, we think of some revolutions, but really the actual fabric to which we live in doesn't change. And hasn't really changed significantly with us 10,000 years in terms of the day-to-day functioning of most peoples. Nice in terms of Skyrim and how we hope to, even if it is, we're talking about that fraction of a percent difference that we want to make in the world, what kind of tilt or we want to make them to the future. It's all around making cities healthy and happy and wealthy places to live. And particularly for the workers, but passion for key workers, isn't just around trying to give beautiful homes, adopters the difference if they come to work. Feeding and it's feeding cause it's not just all stats and facts feeling well. Rested, happy, well looked after respected having come from a beautiful home that we can afford to live in. How can I walk into work for 15 minutes and the effect that that has on the 50 patients that meet that. 20 colleagues and 50 patients, they meet that date is anonymous. And what we're interested in is how can that influencing and making the lives of it may only be 10,000 key workers, maybe 20,000 people, because it's not going to be London has a million developers. We can safely count, solve that for a million people. But if we can begin that process of solving it for thousands or tens of thousands of key workers, giving them affordable, beautiful, sustainable homes to live in near to where they were, that would be amazing. And I think I truly believe the cascade effect that would have in terms of technology and in turn our quality of life. We'll be in measurably different. So that's the ambition. Um, overall it's to try and make London because we are based in London and our focus businesses business in London. So no you'll make money to continue London being the best city in the world. Thank you very much for joining me today again for the second time. And it's been really inspirational to listen to you and about your approach to this, and I wish you all the best for what Skyram. Michael. Thanks so much for having me and great to be back on the podcast again for the third time. Yeah, absolutely. That, that business, but that may take a long ago while as you're quite focused on Skyrim right now. Thank you very much. Thanks.