Rambam on the Satan and Ra (Part 2: The Form of Man)

Length: 1 hour 7 minutes
Synopsis: This Friday morning (3/20/26), in our Friday morning Sefer Iyov series for women, we were GOING to begin the section of the Rambam's Moreh ha'Nevuchim that will be our focus for the next couple of months, beginning with 3:8 on the nature of matter. However, five minutes before shiur, I spontaneously decided to read some Rambams in the Mishneh Torah that I hadn't prepared, but thought would be a good way to review and clarify what we covered in Part 1. The good news is that I was right. The even better news is that this led to a level-up (at least on my part) in how to think about the soul according to the Rambam. I can't say we got everything clear, but we definitely gained in clarity! We ended up spending the rest of the shiur on this topic. The Moreh will have to wait until next time!
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מקורות:
רמב"ם - משנה תורה: ספר המדע, הלכות יסודי התורה ב:ג; ד:ז-ט
יד פשוטה שם
רמב"ם - מילות ההגיון: השער התשיעי
אבן עזרא פירוש ב' - תהלים ח:ג
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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Okay, so uh we are continuing with the Rambam on Ra. Okay, that's the overarching topic here, the Rambam on Ra. And I'm deliberately not translating Ra right now. Um, if you missed last time, last time we did an Aristotelian uh primer, I think it's how you say it, primer for the entire um for the concept of form and matter, which is gonna be the foundation of what we do today. Uh, but if you missed it, it's not necessarily bad. We're gonna review it very briefly, but because the Ramam is gonna be using these terms as applied to the subject matter of Eev, then everyone's gonna get confused anyway. So, like, if you if something's not clear, then ask. Don't hold back your questions if you missed last time or if you thought you got last time and didn't really get it, because we need to like the I mentioned this last time also, but but you know, we are not accustomed to thinking hylomorphically, where you are thinking about things in terms of form and matter. And part of understanding the whole Ramam's approach to EOV is thinking about the world in this way. And you need to like initiate yourself into that way of thinking. So the more questions people ask, even if they're like, you know, questions that we already covered last time, uh uh the better it is. All right, so brief review. Um, we read from the Ramam last time that he says, Kolmasha barhakash barhu lalomo, boolamo, nechhlak loshlosha chalakim. Everything that God created in his universe is divided into three categories. Mehembruim shame muhubarimigol and vatsurah. Um, among them are creations that are composed of matter and form, behim nehbim, vinifim tamid, and they are the things that continually come into being and pass away. Kmu gufos adam vahabahemos, vahatsmachimamatefos, like the bodies of humans, animals, plants, and minerals. Okay, then there's the second category, which he says among them are creations that are composed of matter and form, but do not change from body to body or from form to form like the former. Rather, their form remains fixed in their matter forever, and they do not change like these. These are the celestial spheres and the stars within them, and their matter is not like other kinds of matter, nor is their form like other kinds of form. Um, and I cross that out because uh, as far as I know, we don't really hold that there's any equivalent of that in modern day thinking. And in the last category, mehembruim, surblogal, and plow, there are other creations that are form without any matter at all. Uh, Vihemamalachim, those are the angels. Shamalachim inonkufukviya. Angels are not um uh body or corporeal substance, Elat Suros nifradosomizo, but they're forms separate from one another. Okay, so he's using here two terms, form and matter. And these are terms that come from Aristotle's way of thinking about the universe. And this is what we spent the entire time on last time, which is that there are uh Aristotle's four causes. So material cause, formal cause, efficient cause, and final cause. Um, the material cause is what it's made of. So that is, we can use that as a synonym for matter. Formal cause is what it is or what it's made into. Uh, we describe this as the essence of the thing or what makes the thing the thing. You could also uh uh call it the design of the thing or uh or its organization. Uh and then Leon Cass, uh, which was the book uh The Hungry Soul that we read a long excerpt from, defined it as form is what makes a being a unity and a whole in the world and through time. Form is that order or ordering that makes a one of the many components, giving it an integrity the components by themselves do not have. Um and so we said that it's not synonymous with the shape of something. So, for example, I gave the example last time of um shoes. You know, if you like, you could show a ton of pictures of shoes and they're not all the same shape. Uh, and the to me, the best example was showing my student Ezra's shoes, which are uh Homer Simpson bedroom slippers, which that is the shape of Homer Simpson's head, and it's not like a uh a typical shoe. Or if I said, you know, a uh uh shelter, or if I said a you know, geometric shape. Geometric shapes, by definition, don't have a specific shape. A square is different than a triangle, different than a uh circle, but they all share the formal cause of shapeness. Um and same thing with human beings. So form is not exactly physical or visible, uh, but it's that intangible is-ness that makes the thing the thing. Okay. Um and efficient cause is what makes the thing or what causes the change, then the final cause is the purpose or what it's for. Okay, that is the four causes that we did last time. Okay, any questions so far? That was the briefest review I can give. Okay, so what I was going to do, uh, the plan was going to be to jump right into the Ronbaum's Murn Wuchim. Um and I actually maybe I think what I'll do before I do this, because we're we're now finally starting this part of the of the E of curriculum, is um is uh I guess let's call this overview of the next two months, let's call it. Okay. So the Rambam in the Murnavuchim uh in the third chalik goes through many fundamental ideas. Um and uh it all leads up to his actual quote unquote commentary on Eov, which is uh chapters 22 and 23. So this is the the quote unquote commentary on Safer Eov. Okay, and I call it commentary because it's not a running commentary like you know, like uh the Mafarsian. It's his like treatment of the subject. Okay, however, it begins with 3-8, okay. And um there are sections here, okay. So the I I don't know how much of this we're gonna do inside, how much of this we're gonna like just go in an overview fashion, but just to give you a taste of this, so three eight through three twelve is the Rambom's theory of Ra. Okay, what is Ra? What it causes it, what is Hashem's relationship to it, what are the different kinds of it? What is uh why does it exist in the world? Okay, then 313 is um is the question of the purpose of the universe, um, and to what extent we can and can't know it. Um 314. Hold on, just one second. I'm just gonna look at this and make sure I'm I'm doing this in the right order. And the reason why I want you to um to uh to I want to go through this with you is not just to give you a sneak peek, but to show you how much groundwork is necessary in order to understand um Sadik Viralo and Russia Vitovalo, like why why you know good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people. I think like you know, we said in the very beginning of of uh of of this whole uh adventure that people expect it to be a simple answer, and it's not, because if it were, then you wouldn't need a 42-page uh chapter uh book of EOV. But even in the Rambaum, even before he gets to talking about EOF, this is all the stuff he has to go through. Okay, so um 314 we're gonna skip, which is the size of the universe. Uh, we might do a uh I might assign for you uh as homework to watch some YouTube videos because I don't want to waste our our sheer time with this. Um 315 is the nature of the impossible, okay, and what God can and can't do. Um then 316 is uh is uh God's knowledge. Okay, then 317 and 18. I think it's 317 and 18. Give me just one second here. Yeah. 317 and 18 is give me one second, is uh the theories of Hajgaka. Okay, uh, which is another close forerunner to Eov. Uh to the Romans commentary on Eov. Then 319, this is where I have to check here and see if this is the same thing. 319 uh and 320 and 321. Yeah, 319 through 21 is God's knowledge, more on God's knowledge. Okay. Uh, and then you get to the commentary on EOP. All right. So um, so I say that this is gonna be the plan for the next two months because um I feel like the extent to which we delve into these intermediary chapters, uh, first of all, I think it's necessary, but I I want to do as much of this inside the text as possible. I haven't counted up the number of sessions yet uh before I have to like stop teaching at Nija uh for the year uh because of uh there aren't enough class days. So it's gonna kind of depend on that. So that's the outline for the next part. So what I was gonna do today is I was gonna start off with three eight, okay? But then it occurred to me maybe we need to talk a little bit more about what the form and matter of a human being are. And for that, we're gonna go to the Mishnah Torah. So this I added in literally like in the five minutes that we delayed here. So uh we're gonna go into this. I have not prepared this, and this is arguably uh the most uh what we're gonna read right now is uh one of the most um abstract uh passages in Hilkasi Sodia Torah. Okay, so what we read last time, just to review last time also, we said uh in Hilgasi Sodia Torah 4-7, you never see matter without form or form without matter. Rather, it is the human mind that divides the existing body in its thought, and he understands that it is composed of form of matter and form, and it knows that there are bodies whose matter is composed of the four elements, and bodies whose matter is simple and not composed of other matter, forms that have no matter and are not visible to the eye, sorry, forms that have no matter are not visible to the eye. Rather, they are known by the mind's eye, um just as we know the master of all without the seeing of the eye. So what he means is that everything in the world that you encounter that you see has matter and form. You can't see pure forms and you can't see pure matter. Uh, like even if I I showed you like um you know the matter that we talk about, let's say like clay, right? So clay is matter in relation to the thing that you make out of the clay, but clay itself is made up of different uh, you know, of its own matter. So if you look at that under a microscope and you look at, let's say, like, you know, the cells. So the cells are the matter that make up the clay, or not cells, I mean the um particles, right? Particles make up the clay, but then those particles are made up of particles. You never actually see pure matter, all right? Um okay, so then he goes on and he says like this. Uh, this is the abstract paragraph. Uh, and I haven't translated this yet because I wanted to do this live. Nefesh kulbasar, the soul of all flesh, okay, meaning uh every creature, okay, he tsuraso shenasan lohakel is its form that was given to it by God. Okay, so what does that mean? So this is what we talked about in cast last time, that the form of a squirrel is. Let me just quote from the last time because I thought it's the fun paragraph to read. Um, when he talked about the squirrel, he said, yeah, the form of the squirrel is, he says, one frequent reference or frequent references to animal activity remind us that in living things, form is not a static notion. The looks of animals are often mobile, like the mobile animals that bear them, and the motions of the looks are generally recognizable and true to form. True to form. Most fundamentally, living form is generally functioning form or organization, that is, form in its work or activity. To be a something, to be a particular animal in the full sense, is to be that animal at work. Really, to be a squirrel means to be actively engaged in the constellation of activities we can call squirreling. The true squirrel is a bushy-tailed fellow who not only looks, but also acts like a squirrel, who leaps through the trees with great daring, who gathers, buries, covers, but later uncovers and recovers his acorns, who perches out on a limb, cracking his nuts, sniffing the air for smells of danger, alert, cautious with his tail beating rhythmically, who chatters and plays and courts and mates and rears his young in large, improbable-looking homes at the tops of trees, who fights with vigor and forges with cunning, who shows sprightness, sorry, spiritedness, even anger, and more prudence than many human beings. The dead squirrel or the sleeping squirrel or the squirrel in utero do not fully manifest the squirrel form. So that's what he means by the the so that is the soul of an animal. Uh, one question I often get in put in QA is is do animals have souls? And there's always a froom kid who says, no, they don't. Only humans have souls. And I answer by saying, no, only humans have souls that can last past death. But animals have souls, uh, which is the thing that makes them what they are. So that is the tsura. So this the this description here is a good description of the squirrel's tsura, the squirrel's form, and that's what we mean by soul of uh of an animal. Okay, let me pause there because if we don't understand the soul of an animal, then we're not gonna understand the soul of a human. Any questions on that right now? Again, the the tsura is what makes the thing the thing. Okay, so now here comes the complicated sentence. Okay. And I never I never know how to translate this exactly, okay? Bahadas Hayatsera, okay, and the uh the superior knowledge hamitsuya that exists, okay, or that is found, binaf in the soul shall adam of man, he tsuras ha adam ha shalimbadato is the form of the man who sorry, the form of the man who is perfect in his knowledge. Okay, I'm gonna bold that because that is the definition of the soul of man. The Al Tsurazo, and regarding this form, Neamar Batorah, it was said in the Torah, um, naase adam bitzalmenu kidmus. Let us make man in our tselem like our demus. Okay, and so tselim here is in our form, okay, again, not physical form, because God doesn't have a physical form, and like our demus, which means uh likeness. Uh, and that's in Beratis 126. Um Klomar, okay, so now he thankfully he he uh he uh elaborates, um uh meaning to say shitihe lotsura that men should have a form haiodaas that knows umaseges and uh and grasps Hadeus Shainlam Golan. Um uh the concepts or the ideas or the the uh that uh or the um yeah, concepts or ideas that that have no matter uh or no material. Um uh ad sheid me la hen until he resembles them. The in a zohanikeris laina uh and uh the reference in the Pasuk is not to the form that is discernible to the eye. Shehiha peva hotem halistaus usharoshama guf. Um namely uh uh namely the mouth, the nose, the cheeks, uh, and the other bodily shape, uh I guess the the the the the rest of the bodily um gestalt, we'll use a modern term there, shizo toroshma, for this is called To'ar, okay, um as opposed to tselen. Okay, so let's stop right here and on our own try to understand what does the Rama mean. Okay, so what what does the Ramba mean in his definition of man's soul? Okay, what does he mean that it is the I'm gonna bold it here, the superior knowledge that exists in the soul of man is the form of the man who is perfect in his knowledge? What does that mean to you? Or how would you put it in your own words? If you were hyphenatically teaching this to high school students and they said, I don't understand what this means, how would you explain it in a way that a teenager can understand?

SPEAKER_03 17:04

Yeah, tomorrow I'm honestly having a lot of trouble parsing it, so just trying to organize a sentence. Um maybe um when you're thinking about the example of a man who is perfect in his knowledge, yeah, then that person's form is the superior knowledge that exists in his soul.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Okay. That person's form is the superior knowledge of this. Now, when you say that exists in his soul, do you mean the knowledge that he currently has?

SPEAKER_03 17:37

I don't know. That was just the temple.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

All right, fine. Okay, yeah. All right, good. Anyone else want to take a stab at it?

SPEAKER_04 17:42

I would say like that that that that sorry, was somebody else raised their hand?

SPEAKER_00 17:46

Go ahead, go ahead. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:46

Um that the main what I was getting from form in my understanding is that that's more of kind of the the um the definition of him. It's the it's that which makes him a man is his form as a man is this knowledge.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Okay, good, good. I think that's why he has to say the perfect, the man who is perfect in his knowledge. So let me let me lead into this with two lead-in examples. Okay, so let's do lead. Let's do lead in example number one, uh, example number one circle. Okay, and then lead in uh example number two is um is building. Okay, and the the building is gonna be one of my favorite examples. So lead in example is a circle. I forgot if we gave this example last time, but uh when you attempt to draw a circle, okay, um you are attempting to uh to create a a uh a material uh uh embodiment uh of the uh ideal uh form of circle. Okay, and the form is perfect and your your uh you know material uh uh drawn circle will always fall short. Okay, but but you are trying to achieve that that that perfect ideal. Okay, so that is what you're doing when you say, so if if you draw the circle and I look at that and I say, what is the form of that thing that you just produced? The form is the mathematically perfect circle, which cannot be produced in the material world. Because if you look closely enough, it's not gonna be, you know, what is the circle? I don't know the exact definition, but um a geometric shape in which the circumference is uh equidistant from the uh the center and has no angles and no uh sides or whatever you want to call it, right? So so like you're never gonna get that exactly because uh if you look really closely enough at the at the pen, it's not gonna be exact, okay? But you're trying to embody that. All right. Example number two is the building. Is when an architect designs a building, that design is the the perfect ideal. Okay. Um uh when a contractor um you know gets people to build it, uh the material building will never perfectly embody that design. Okay, uh, but that design, that that idealized design is its form. So what I want to say here is the answer to the question is like this is that um the the material oh I I think I need to do one more thing. Sorry, one more thing is uh lead-in example number two. Uh I'll respond to your question in a second, I don't want to lose my train of thought. So the is the squirrel. Okay. So um so every physical squirrel is a material embodiment of the form of the ideal squirrel. All right. Uh and it's not perfect, but it it approximates it. Uh approxim approximates it. Okay. So so the thing is is that that in the in the case of a squirrel, um, there is just its material, uh, you know, it's material and its squirrel form. Okay. However, man uh is and I realize that the Ram is not saying this, but I think this is the assumption here. The man is a hybrid creature, okay. Um he has an animal body, but a uh a non-physical um immaterial soul, okay. And the body is the form, uh sorry, the uh the um the the body is material for that human soul. So this is how I want to say it now, okay? So the m the the um with man then uh man's material material body um has Has the potential to become a uh a a knowing creature, okay? Um and that is his true form. So so the form of a human is the idealized perfect knower that has complete knowledge. And to the extent that that you uh you know gain knowledge and develop your capacity as a knower, you are actualizing that form in your material self. Yeah, I see.

SPEAKER_04 22:58

I'm just a little confused. Is there something about I mean, because that could also sound like it could be an an angel, you know, or some you know, some other kind of knower? Is there something that makes it specifically human?

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Yes, because an angel um is is not does not have matter, does not have material um um uh a material body.

SPEAKER_04 23:17

Okay, I'm coming right back from the chair. I have to go off for one second.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

Okay, sure. Uh Racheli said in the chat, so what's the form of a man who is not perfect in his knowledge? So I would say that that is a uh that person is, and we're all in that case, by the way, even Mocher Beno, that is a uh developing man. Okay, that is someone who is is developing from you know when you start off, you're pure animal, but you have the potentiality to be a an eloquim, right? To be a knower. Um, in fact, this is where I maybe maybe to remind us of uh of Sporno's definition. Not that the Raman would agree with Sporno, but I think it'll be useful here. So Sporno's um Sforno's uh definition, sorry, what's going on with my typing here? Sforno's definition of of Elohim, uh in the case of angels or Elohim in the in in in in uh in relation to God is um a rational um uh uh a rational eternal essence or substance. Okay, uh etzem Nitzri Vesichli. Okay so um and he's then he says uh we are called tselem elochim um because we are a shadow of Elohim, okay, um, or or a or a potenti uh no uh uh an uh an eloquim or elohim in potentia, in potential, okay. So um so and this is why, for example, the Rambam in one place, I forgot where he says this, he refers to Mosh Reno as almost a malach, because Mosherbeeno was almost fully actualized um intellect, but he still was material, he still had a physical body. And uh, and then when you die and your telemelochim um uh is separate from your your physical body, then you are very much like the angels. The only difference is that the angels um were created in a static matter with knowledge that they cannot gain or modify, whereas you as a human developed into that and then uh exist in that way. Yeah, Fega.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

Um, sorry, just want to clarify: is soul the same thing as form?

SPEAKER_00 25:42

So soul is the same thing as form, the way that the Ramam is describing it for animals. It's just the difference is that the animal's soul is its particular animality. Um, and the human's soul is the true form that differentiates you from the animals. Um, in fact, just to clarify here, I I want to read a little bit more in the Rambam because he's gonna differentiate this from other uses of soul. Okay, so he says like this the ina-han nethesh, Hamatsuya the Khol Nefeshkaya. Okay, so the soul of man is not the nephesh um that is found in every living creature. Shaba Ochho Bishoso omolid mark mahar, uh, by which it uh eats, drinks, uh procreates, uh senses, and uh muses. Okay, um, so that is uh that's like the soul that Cass was talking about with the uh the squirrel. Okay, so soul of man is not that. Allah Hadea, rather, uh it is the knowledge. Uh Sheed Surathan which is the form of the soul um uh of the of the nefesh. Okay, Uvatsurh Nefeshumadabir, and the puzzuk uh is talking about the surah, about the form of the nephesh. Upa'amim tikarizos at surah nefesh varuach. Sometimes this form uh is sorry, pa'amimrabos. Many times, uh in many cases, uh this form uh is called Nefesh, sorry, Nefesh uh and Ruach. Um, therefore, and this is an important warning, therefore, Tsarak Lehizah Basham Bashamus Shelotite. Uh you need to be careful, sorry, you need to be careful with terms so that you you you don't err. And each and every term should be learned uh from its context. Okay, in other words, the Tanakh uses many terms for souls, so nephesh, nashamah, ruach, kavod, um, other things as well. And he's saying that the proper term for this is uh is the tsura of the nepesh. And sometimes that is called nephesh, but sometimes it's called ruach. And then we learned in our our uh what shear was it? I forgot if it was a Thursday night shear or a uh Friday shear that it's also sometimes called Nishama, okay? But you need to learn it out from the context, okay? And then one more warning, he says, uh about what this is not. Um this uh the the the uh the the form of this uh nefesh uh is not composed of the elements um such that it will decompose into them. The inamiko nashama, and it is not from the uh capacity or power of the nishamah, okay. Now he hasn't defined nishamah yet, um, such that it would need the nishama um uh shama tshrichalaguf, as the nishama needs the body. Ella, rather, it is from Hashem from uh heaven, uh from the heavens. Um, therefore, when the material separates, sorry, when the material which is comprised of the elements uh decomposes, uh separates, but uh and the nashama um which uh sorry in the nishama uh is destroyed uh because it is uh only found with the body and needs the body in all its its uh activities. Lotikarasurzos, this uh this form will not be cut off. For it does not need the nishama in its activities. Um Ella Yodas Umasega Sadeas Haprados mean haglomim, rather it knows and grasps uh the uh concepts or ideas that are separate from matter, the yodas bore a cole, and it knows the creator of all, the omedis, and it lasts forever, uh forever and ever. This is what Shlomo uh in his wisdom said, Vyashuv afar alhaarts, keshahaya, the earth, or I guess the dust will return to the earth as it was, but the spirit uh Tashima Share Nasana will return to the God who who uh who uh bestowed it. Uh and that's Kohelas 12 7. So in other words, so the Ram is is saying a lot of stuff. He's saying what the what the um what the Nasha uh what the the human soul is and is not, so the or what the human form is and is not. So the human uh tsura, the human form uh is the form of the person who is complete in his knowledge, who's perfect in his knowledge. It's not the uh the physical um uh what do you call it? It's not the where is it? It's not the physical form that's discernible to the eye, because that's called Toar. So it's not your your bodily like shape, okay? It's also not the the animal form, okay, which is found in every animal that is what causes the squirrel to do its squirrely things. Um uh and it's also not the nashama, which I would translate as like the vitality, okay, the thing which which like gives creatures their life, okay, which is separate. Vitality is separate from the squirreliness, okay. Vitality is like what makes all organisms be alive. Um, and that's why he's saying that the nishama goes away when you die. But the the the sura of man, which is related to non-physical things, which can apprehend non-physical things, continues to exist forever. Okay, so uh um, Fega, I don't know if that confuses you more or answers your question or both.

SPEAKER_02 32:37

Yeah, uh, I think I'll have to like think about that a bit more.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

We will all have to think about this in in many ways. Okay, so I think what the the bottom line that we're concerned with here, where's consciousness reside? So it's an interesting question, Rakeli is asking. Where's consciousness reside? So I'm not aware of where the Ramam talks about consciousness. Um, but um, and and the reason why is because conscious, when we use the term consciousness, we're not just referring to the rational faculty, we're also referring to like sensory awareness and to, you know, um sen uh perception of the self. Um, so I don't know if he had that that notion. And I don't know if he would say that it's in the um in the uh what do you call it? The I I would guess it's he'd say that it's in in in the animal nefish. Okay, because animals could be conscious as well. I mean, I think that's what we I know consciousness is a big debate, but I I think I I assume that that like that scientists hold that like organisms are conscious, that that higher organisms are conscious. Um uh yeah, uh Fega.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

Um so if the soul is based off of knowledge, then I'm just wondering what that means about people who don't know a lot or don't have the ability to know a lot. Like, are there people with more or less souls depending on how much knowledge they have?

SPEAKER_00 34:02

Uh yes. So we um again, we all exist on a continuum. If you are a human being, then then by virtue of being human, you have the capacity to know, okay? Um, and uh to have to have knowledge to have abstract conceptual knowledge, all right. And as far as I know, the Torah maintains that that that is a unique quality in human beings. So even though a newborn baby and a newborn dog have equal knowledge, there is a difference, which is that the baby has the capacity and the potentiality to become a knower, whereas the dog does not. Okay, again, a knower of abstract ideas. Okay, so that's at the one end of the spectrum. The other end of the spectrum, you have Moshe Rebano, and everyone exists in between. Okay. And um, every person has a certain natural capacity. So I do not think that we hold that anyone could be Moshe Rubino, um, like can actually reach that height. Okay, and again, the Torah says no one you know is uh will ever be a rise who's like Moshe Rubino, um, who's a nubby like Moshe Ubaino. So I don't think anyone could reach that capacity. So that's like that's limited. And frankly, I don't think that any of us in this room could become on the level of the Brahmam or Rabbi Kiva. I think like like their capacity evidently was more. I mean, maybe uh maybe I'm not believing in you as much as like uh I should, but um, I'll say that about myself. Can I can I ask just a question about that? Uh uh just one second. Um and it's also possible to have your potentiality cut short. So if you die young, you're you're you're you're not gonna be able to gain more knowledge. Okay. And it's also possible for there to be uh injuries and illnesses and congenital, uh, or you know, either induced or congenital. I don't know what the word for opposite congenital is, but like like let's say you develop a brain disorder, you know, that affects your your the function of your brain, you know, and you'll I'll I'll quote uh Mortimer Adler's um my favorite statement about the brain and the mind is Mortimer Adler says, we can't uh we don't think with our brain, uh, but we can't think without it. Okay, meaning that that even though we hold that the soul is non-physical, it operates through the brain. And if your brain is not functional, then you can't you can't think. So some people, let's say you develop a uh uh you know a brain disorder and it impairs your ability to think, or you know, so that that that can affect you. Or let's say you're born with a certain limitation on how much you can think and how much you can gain, there that's another limitation of potential. So what I'm trying to answer here is that is it true that some people are less or more actualized in humanity? Yes, it's 100% true, but we all exist on that spectrum. And um, and you know, why is it that some people are created with more or less potential? That's a question for Zaver EO that we're gonna get to later. That's what we're building towards. Uh yeah, SD.

SPEAKER_04 36:56

And but there's there's one more one more factor to I'm just in what you're describing is also how how much an individual um actualizes their potential, whatever it may be. Because a person can have tremendous potential and not actualize in a person, like you know, close to much her being and not do anything with it, whereas a person who has less but actualizes their full potential would be we know the the the that the changes that that's just another factor in in in in the um in the existence of the change.

SPEAKER_00 37:28

I think I was saying I thought I was saying that we're talking about us, that we're all sitting here trying to learn and trying to actualize our potential. But yes, it's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04 37:34

Well, in other words, yeah. I mean, if I actualize my potential to the fullest degree, which you know, I'm not nowhere near that, but I I still wouldn't be near the Ram. But but I might be more than somebody who had a greater potential who didn't do anything.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

Correct. Correct. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, it's not just an absolute spectrum, or sorry, an absolute um, yeah, it's not just an absolute spectrum. You know, you can't exceed your own potential. That's the definition of potential. Um, but uh, but it is a, you know, each person's um actualization of their humanity will be uh will depend on a combination of nature, nurture, and choice. That's how I'd say it. Yeah, Fega.

SPEAKER_02 38:17

Um I'm honestly a bit uncomfortable with the implications on like the value of life and that like I don't know. It it puts a very big emphasis on like knowledge and I guess people's intellectual abilities, which I just I feel like isn't like I don't know um exactly what to make of that, but I did have a separate question, and that was let me try to I want to respond to that because I think that's a common question, okay.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

Is uh, you know, I I once did this with all of the mefarshim that I had uh access to, um, all the you know, classical mefarshim, uh not all of the mefarshim in existence, but you know, if you look at telemelochin, okay, that the the term that the Torah uses for what makes us human, then at the time, again, I this is a long time ago. Uh I only had access to the printed mufarshim. All of them said telemelochin is a reference to knowledge. So it might make people uncomfortable, but the Torah defines what makes us human as knowledge, you know, and I know that that's not a popular idea nowadays. Um, it's not popular because in secular culture, then um, you know, I don't think knowledge is valued in that way. It's not popular because uh uh Hasidis, uh especially early Hasidis, introduced this notion that that the soul, you know, that that that the measure of your value is not tied to knowledge, um, and you know, and uh and that there are other uh things as you know as well. And yes, ultimately there there is uh other value to human beings for other reasons, but what makes you human is knowledge or your ability to know. Um, and as far as I know, that is something that has been the classical position of Judaism, uh, you know, certainly in the era of the Rishonen. Um and uh and again, there are there, you know, I think it's a fair question to say, what about people who don't have as much potential to know? That's why we're learning safer Eov. Um, but then but I I just wanted to seize on this point that that that is what makes us human, according to the classical understanding of Torah. And I know that people try to say other stuff about like, no, you know, uh it's like our creative capacity. Well, you can come up with your own interpretation of Torah, but like, you know, Rambam, Ramban, Rashi, Sword, all these people learned it that Salemal Kim is connected to knowledge. So uh that's how I would respond to that. But then Fega, you had another question and then we'll go to Tamara after.

SPEAKER_03 40:38

Okay, I wanted to respond to what you just said.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Oh, sure. Okay, yeah, tomorrow, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 40:41

Yeah, I just wanted to add something that I think that you've said a lot, which is that it's not just um it's not the knowledge in the most like academic textbook sense, but it also has to do with how it affects you and how you act. Like it's it's um it's integrated into the person, which maybe is obviously a good point, right?

SPEAKER_00 40:56

So I'll I'll quote myself quoting Yumi Yahu is that you know Yumyahu 923 is uh that that is the puzzling in Tanakh, which most expresses our our what it means to succeed as a human is um uh only in this per can a person like uh praise themselves or or be glorified is Haskil Via Dosi, Hashem's talking, comprehending and knowing me, can y Hashem that I am Hashem, Ose Chesed Mishpat Utztakab Arts, who does kindness, justice, and righteousness on earth, ki be elikhafastinum, because in these is my desire. And the Ramam at the end of the morh makes the point that the the purpose is not just academic knowledge or abstract or theoretical knowledge, it's knowledge that that culminates in in action in emulating God in Chesim Mishbad and Sadaka. Okay, uh going back to Tha and then Rufka's next.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

Okay, no, I I I do like that last bit. So um thank you, Tamar. And thank you very much, James, for mentioning that. Yeah. Um so a question I had is that if the soul is not physical, then how could there be more or less of it?

SPEAKER_00 42:04

Okay, so so this is the thing. This is the thing that's a little uh uh um Aristotelian here, okay. So so any thing in the world is comprised of form and matter, and uh the form is always gonna be uh the like unchanging idealized um thing, and the matter will embody that to a greater or lesser degree. So when we're talking about a human being who is living then and making choices, they are actualizing that Salam Elokim to a greater or lesser extent in their material self. Okay. Now the Ramam ended off by saying that that unlike the Nishama, which ceases to exist once you once you die, uh, because the Nishama is dependent on the body. And again, I'm I'm defining the nishama loosely as the vitality. So um, unlike that, this the the tsura, the form of the human being, continues to exist after death. Okay. How that works, I do not know. Okay. Uh the I can I can give you a visualization of it, which is uh ironically for a non-visible thing, but like like, you know, if you imagine a uh, let's use a plant, which is even easier than an animal. Let's say you're a gardener and you're growing like roses. So each rose bush that you grow will embody the tsurah, the form of rose to the greatest extent possible, but then it's gonna it's gonna wither and die, and it will not embody that anymore. But imagine with a human, you're actualizing this tsura of the per the of the perfected human being, this this human form. And when you die, that form in some sense continues to exist. And that's what we call Alamhaba. Okay, how that works, I don't really know, but it's unique to human beings because only human beings have a tsura that that survives after death. Nothing in the physical world does that. That's all I can say at this point. Yeah. Okay, Rivka.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

Um, so I just wanted to give an example because sometimes when we think about knowledge, we might think, oh, somebody's speaking intelligently, or I read this and now I know it. But um like yesterday I saw a conductor and you know, you could see the man looks like he's dancing to the music, or and then there's a great shadow on the wall of him conducting. And neither one shows you like what he's actually involved in. But when you see like and hear everything that's going on and you know how music works, then you're like, wow, you know, you understand that it's like through your own faculties of knowledge, right? And what you're seeing, what you're experiencing, there's so much more to the picture. So um I think knowledge of Hashem is obviously also like, it's not just, oh, I know Hashem, I learned something about Hashem, like it's infinite and it's also ever like to us, it's ever um increasing, or you know, any understanding can completely change your outlook.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

Right. So yeah, okay, that's a very good point. And I also I want to just give a little uh uh asterisk here that the Rambam talks about this person who is um uh, you know, the form of the human is the person, the form of the person who is uh Shalim Badato, who is uh perfect in his knowledge. One thing I don't know is whether the Rambam's idea of being perfect in knowledge corresponds to our idea. And by our, I'm going like this, I don't know who's included in our idea perfect in knowledge. Um, I know, for example, that the Raw Bag has this idea that knowledge is this discrete, uh finite, attainable uh thing that exists. Like the the example that the raw bag would say is like um that imagine you have a like a seal, like an asignet ring. So the seal would be like uh the perfect, the perfected form of the thing. And then when you impress it upon the wax, it is imprinting its form onto the wax. So the Raw Bog conceives of the human mind like that, that you have what he calls the active intellect, which is this Aristotelian concept of the angel that is responsible for all the forms in the universe, which is like the signet ring. And when you gain knowledge, it's like that active intellect is impressing itself on your material intellect. So the way he viewed the world is there is this like idealized form of, let's say, like all the laws of nature in their actuality that exists. And what you're trying to do is you're trying to like mold your intellect to be as in line with that as possible, and to the extent that you achieve that, then you achieve immortality. Okay. But I don't know if that's how we think of knowledge now, especially according to me and my wolf shear, that like it is that that like what Ruff is saying is that that our knowledge of Hashem is infinite, and uh even our knowledge of Hashem via his creations is infinite, and we're just getting closer and closer and closer. So I don't even know what our modern way of thinking is of to be perfect in knowledge, and I don't know if the Raman would change his mind now that we know more about certain things. So I I that's just a a footnote because I don't really know uh what the Raman would say about that. I also want to comment on what Rivka put in the chat, which she said, yes, like someone who has ALS, but they can still communicate with the eye movement and the and technology because their nishama is still active. First of all, the Ram would say not Nashama, he would say that the their tsurah, their form is still active, and the nishama is their vitality. Okay, but again, some people do say that the nishama is, like we said on Thursday night here, is the part of you that knows. What I want to say is, you know, what's the lowest level that is considered to be actualizing your Talamu Lakim? So I don't know what the Rama would say, but there is this uh this Ibn Azra here, okay, that is on Tahilam 8.3. Uh I wrote this in uh an article once. I don't know if this is on my Substack, but on my old blog, uh, do babies have souls? Actually, I want to show you this. Hold on. Um, because it was based on this thing, and uh, and this is a fun multiple choice question. Do babies have souls? Okay, so um I wrote so multiple choice question. Um, do babies have souls? How would you answer this on a multiple choice quiz? A, yes, b, no, c maybe, or d potentially. Okay, um, so I wanted to argue based on this Ibn Ezra that um what what it means that the baby has a soul, which is potentially. So he says, like the puzzle says, Me pi olalim viyonkim, yesadata oz lama'ansoraraha la hashbis oyev umisnak. Very hard puzzle to translate. So Ibn Novetsky translates it as from the mouth of I guess this is a thing people quote, right? From the mouth of babes, they're quoting this uh Till in 8.3, from the mouth of infants and nursing babes, you establish strength on account of your adversaries. So Ibn Ezra says like this. Um uh so he quotes someone else, but then he says, um wait. Yeah, he says the correct interpretation in my uh opinion is Ba Vur Heyosa Adam nihba nikod ni vrai mata. Uh because man is more exalted than all of the lower creations, uh, which by the way, that's the topic of this uh chapter of Tihilim, is um is like where man stands in relation to other uh creations and in the universe. Um, you know, this is also a famous line. You have made man a little bit lower than the angels. Um uh and uh with glory and majesty you have crowned him. So Ibn Natur says, since man is the most exalted of all of the lower creations, uh Amr Kane, he says this, Kimi Ace Sheachel Hanar Ladaber. Once the youth, uh the I think the kid begins to speak, uh that's why it says from the mouth of infants. From that point, it begins from its qualities, lakhil koacha nishama, to receive the power of the nishama ha ha chama of the rational soul, which is his word for the what the Ram is calling the tsura. I don't know how to vocalize this, shit, sha tisakel, taskil, bashikul da'ata koakbora, until it can cognize or conceptualize through its weighing of its right uh of its mind the power of its creator. Kitachaka nephesh, yom akharyom, and then the soul will strengthen day after day, vzetam yesarha o's. And that's what it means that you establish strength. So, what I get from this is what he's saying is basically when does the soul of a human come online as soon as the baby begins to speak? And I don't think speak means like in words. I mean I think communication, meaning uh as soon as the baby is able to communicate, that is the first sign that it that the material baby is receiving, um, is receiving uh um the the the is actualizing its soul. Okay. Um and um and this is in line, by the way, with the uh the Targum Unklos, uh, which is the you know the the official Torswalpe uh translation of of uh of the Torah. This is the famous thing where the puzzle says in Bereshis 2.7, Adama, uh Hashem God fashioned the man uh out of dust from the earth, and uh man be uh and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living being. Uncleus famous famously says, Um, man became a speaking spirit. Um, so speech is not like just the ability to produce vocal sounds that are words, like a parrot. Speech is the ability, speech and thought and and rational thought are inherently related. This is also why the Aristotelians call man the speaking uh dabir, the speaking animal, because only man has capacity for syntactical speech. Yeah, Rivka.

SPEAKER_01 52:20

Um, I just want to say I really saw this like with my child Gayer, because when he was like a toddler, he would like constantly bump his head, he would like bite other kids. He had like, you know, I had him like evaluated for stuff. And then as soon as he began talking, like really communicating around three, he just like stopped all those behaviors and like you could see like the person inside that little crazy looking.

SPEAKER_00 52:46

Yeah, that's cool. Um, another example of this that I really like is I don't know when I became aware that this category uh uh exists. And I was sorry, not when I became aware. I know when I became aware. I don't know when when when people became aware that nonverbal autistic uh human beings, that there are, I don't know what the divisions of autism are, but there are people who are like completely nonverbal, but they are they're capable of like completely intelligent syntactical speech. Like the the the I became aware of it of this, I think her name is Kathy or something like that, that uh I don't know when in the maybe it was like the 2000s or something like this, this this uh you know young woman who's autistic, nonverbal, who people thought that there was no intelligence there. And I think they found some sort of Carly, thank you. Was it a children's toy or something that like you could press it and it would like say certain words? And then they thought, oh, maybe we should try like giving her like the ability to like you know, um uh essentially type out sentences using these words. And then they basically like found out that she is completely like intelligent and and able to like think in in as as much or you know as any other person, but she was just locked inside this body that did not allow her to talk, you know. Um, so to me, that's just another example of how when we talk about speech, we're not talking about even the ability to make words, we're talking about like whatever this cognitive thing is to be able to form thought that is expressed in syntax, you know. Yeah, Estee.

SPEAKER_04 54:21

Yeah, and I would even argue, I mean things developmentally in psychology, like certainly when it's not holds that the that the capacity to develop speech really is indistinguishable from having concepts that are beyond physical. That's just what it is. In other words, if you have one apple and another apple and another apple, when do you get to the word apple as opposed to just having three distinct things in front of you? Once you can say apple, you've got it's the concept, and that's that's the form of the thing that makes the green apple, the red apple, the half-eaten apple, the roll apples, and your mind can say that word, you're in that realm.

SPEAKER_00 54:58

Yeah, right. I remember I wish I could remember the sentence, but there was a time I was at your house for a meal, and uh, and you know, Ezra was like, I mean, it was it was it was in it was within the last year, I think. So, you know, he was over a year old, but like, and I remember like Isaiah asked him a question that was something like like, do you want another like cookie or something? It was something like that. And it suddenly just struck me, like, and and and Ezra clearly understood the question, clearly it struck me like how abstract is that concept? Like, do first of all, like, do you want another cookie? And it's being asked as like a preposition about a hypothetical that like, but yet somehow like a kid can like understand that, you know, it's it's it's crazy, like how the mind, you know, uh how how it happens so early, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:02

And it's funny because like if you think about like like a gazelle that can like walk in one day or whatever, and they have to be fully you know capable, like uh humans really do take longer, right? But the part that that you know it feels like, oh my gosh, there's no capacity until you're a year and a half, two, three, you know, but at the same time, look at what's developing. It really happens quite early. It's incredible, right? It's just incredible.

SPEAKER_00 56:25

Yeah, yeah, it is amazing. Yeah, and I think that is the um I I actually didn't finish the Ibanezra here. Um or did I am I mixing two things together? Oh, I'm sorry, this is not the Ibanezra on Tihilim. Um let's see if Ibnesra says this. Uh okay, no, no, I I think I might be mixing this up with someone else, but I think you could read the Pusuk that like you know the fact that babies can have this level of thought does establish God's like power, his strength. I mean, I don't know why it says O's though, but like, like in other words, it is an amazing thing that God created this creature that could do this at such a young age, you know? Um, yeah. Okay. Um, so okay, so I'm laughing because um my high school students always ask me questions about the soul, and I say that I I don't know anything about the soul. And um, I think this might be the first year I've given on the soul, and it was not planned, uh, because I did not think I would be talking about this today, but I feel like this is the clearest. I I don't claim to know every nuance of what the Ramam says here that we just read, but I feel like this is the the clearest um uh the clearest year I've given on what what the Ramam holds the soul is. So let's just try to draw this down to a bottom line here, okay, is the the the bottom line is uh um the the form of a squirrel is its uh squirrelness okay but the form of a uh sorry the form slash soul of a squirrel is its squirrelness, but the form of a human is uh the let me just go back to his exact words again. I just want to uh get this clear now, and then we'll see if it makes more sense than the first time we read it. Nefeshkul Basar, the soul of every of all flesh, is the form that was given to it by God. And the superior knowledge, uh, and I think when he says superior knowledge, I think he means like animals also have knowledge, but not like conceptual knowledge or not like you know uh abstract knowledge. So the superior knowledge that is found in the soul of man is the form of the man who is perfect in his knowledge. Okay, so the soul of I just I just read it and I just lost it. The knowledge that exists in the soul of man is the form of the man who is perfect in his knowledge, and then later on he said, um he said Yeah, um Alhadeashuras Hanefish, uh the knowledge, which is the form of the soul, uh, is the uh um yeah, so again I'm just not getting it exactly clear here. Give me one second. But the form of the human is saying the soul of the human is the theory.

SPEAKER_04 59:53

Oh yeah, sorry, sorry, no. I was saying that uh I was gonna wait until you were done. I had to have thought of like maybe why this seems so confusing.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:00

Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:02

I was gonna say, like, when you think about the spike, why can't you say the same thing about a human? Like the squirrel is a squirrelness, and the human is it's humanness. It seems like why can't you just do that? Yeah, and and I think the answer is he's answering that question because everything in the squirrel is in this realm, and all of its all of its um, all of its qualities that make it a squirrel, and and and all the you know, the four different causes, it's it's material, it's it's it's it's purpose, all the different things that it is are in this physical world. So it's the entire definition of what it is is here, and we can recognize it and pinpoint it very clearly and say that it is squirrel, but because we are human beings are this hybrid phenomenon where part seems to be gone, it's very it gets we just get confused again and again and again, which part is which, and we're so also so familiar. You know, we're talking about toddlers, but really from the time we're toddlers, we're dealing with an abstract realm. And unless you really spend time reflecting and recognizing which aspects of your function are you, you know, drawing from that realm and utilizing that realm and where the motivations are, where the four different causes of what you're doing are, like, unless you spend time sorting it out, it is difficult to pin down what makes what is the definition of the human. Like what is different than nothing else.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:24

Yeah, well said. I actually want to just read one thing that I put here as backup. When you said the um everything that this that the squirrel is is there and we're a hybrid. Um uh I I copied and pasted and Google translated, not Google translated, Chat GPT translated, the uh Yad Pshuta, which is the uh Nahum Rabinovich's commentary on the Ramam. So he cites something from the Ramam's first work that the Ramam ever wrote, which is the Milosa Higayon, which is uh uh the Ramam's like uh book on logic. So he says like this But Milosa Higayon, so this uh English translation is not mine. In the the Milosa Higayon in the book of logic, Mefarish Rabbeinu, the Ramam explains Shish, Tsura Rishona Vatsura Ahrona. There is the first form and the final form. The first form is considered material vis-a-vis the final form. Okay, this might help us to put what Este just observed into words. Kahbir Basharat Shishan. So here's what the Ram says there. So he quotes like this Um Binyanim Hamalachutim in artificial objects, uh Hakise Dirach Mashal. For example, a chair, Homoro Ha'ates, its material is the wood. Upolo and the efficient cause is the um is uh hanagar, is the uh the carpenter. Um vsuraso and its form, uhuba, oh hashilush imhu mushulash, oha eagle imhu eagle is the shape, whatever the shape is. Anachnu, lonakri hatemunav hator, but inyanam hativium tsura. We, however, do not call the um the physical attributes of these things, or sorry, the uh the the uh the visible appearance and the outline uh of of natural things the form of on nikri sura binyan ha inyan ha ma'amid o so ha inyan ham yucha though we call in uh in uh natural things, we call the form the the thing that makes the thing what what makes it unique. Let me see how he translates this. Um in rather what is called form in natural things is that element which establishes the thing in its specific identity. Such that if you were able to remove it from that thing, the thing would no longer be an individual of that species. Dimionze adam, for example, man, kihu minha nyanakhativi, man is a natural thing. Humoro hu ha kius. Ah, here's the thing. Man's matter is his animality, is his is is his animal, is his animalness. Vitsuraso and his form, he ha ko kumadabr, is his rational faculty or his capacity to speak. Upolo and his efficient cause, who asher nasan lo zos atsura, is the one who gave it that tsura. Ki inyon hapol etlenu, mamti hatsuros pukumarim vuhu ha keli sprah. And that's that's the one who brings forms into existence in matter, and that's God. So I think that that little clue. Oh, sorry, and he goes on and he says, This is now Rabbi Rubinovich again. Kashiramuduberhu bukhol basar. When the Brahm is talking about all flesh, Kalomur Balechaim Bathlal, meaning animals in general, their their form is the soul that gives them life. If you were to remove that from it, uh that soul from it, it would no longer be that species of animal. Ulam, however, kashar madubra ahaadam, when you talk about man, the thing that makes him differentiated from other species is his rational faculty, which is the form of the soul. And vis-a-vis that final form, man's animal form is itself matter. So that's like expressing in form and matter words how the hybrid is, is that an animal is only one layer. There's it's there's the organic matter, and then there's the form of squirrel. But with man, you have the organic matter, and then there's the animal form, which is man's body, but then the form that makes him human is on top of that, which is the rational faculty. So it's it's a double-layered thing. So I think that's just putting in Aristotelian terms what Estee was observing about the difficulty that we have in thinking about this, because it's not like a chair and not like an animal. And I I really think the only like truly dual being, hybrid being that has this non physical component to the physicality is a human being. Um, so yeah. Okay. Uh I think I have to stop now. And I I know uh other people have to go as well. Um, we did not get to the wrong moment, Rob, but this is even more setting us up for the next uh the next um uh Uh level of the shear. And I actually think what'll happen is when I review what we did now next time, then it will be even clearer. So I think I could use this time to review what we just covered. And uh and we'll get into Bleed Netter into Raw next time. Now, next time I will I plan to be in Seattle. I think I can still give shear though. Um uh oh, yes, SD, you can actually SC, why don't you post it in yeah, in the yeah, post it in the in the in the uh WhatsApp chat and then I'll uh and then we can get it. Yeah, thank you. Um okay, good. So a lot to think about. I don't, I'm not pretending that we understood everything about the soul, but I will tell you, this is the I think this is the only shear I've given on the soul. Okay. Uh that like I actually feel confident about that like we said something that was, you know, makes sense in some way. But there's a lot more. And if you have questions about this, please put them in in in the WhatsApp chat uh because uh I want to uh continue to think about this and have it even clearer next time. Okay, thanks for coming. This is uh this is uh unpredicted, uh uh uh non predicted adventure. All right, have a good chavis, everyone.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:15

Thank you for the chavez.