Q&A #47 - Hashgachah Diagnosis, Rambam on Lashon ha'Ra, Dividing Learning Into Thirds

Length: 28 minutes
Synopsis: This morning (4/16/26), in lieu of our usual morning Mishlei, we had a short Q&A session! We discussed three questions: (1) To what degree can we "diagnose" whether something in our life was hashgachah pratis? (2) What does the Rambam mean by all the aggadic statements he brings down in Hilchos Deios Perek 7 about lashon ha'ra? (3) What are my views on how/whether we do/should implement the halacha about dividing one's learning time into thirds: a third in Torah she'bi'Chsav, a third in Torah she'baal Peh, and a third in Talmud? (I'll point out that these three questions fell neatly into these three categories.)
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מקורות:
רד"ק - תהלים קמה:יז
רמב"ם - משנה תורה: ספר המדע, הלכות דעות פרק ז
Benjamin Brown - "From Principles to Rules and from Musar to Halakhah: The Hafetz Hayim's Rulings on Libel and Gossip"
רמב"ם - משנה תורה: ספר המדע, הלכות תלמוד תורה א:יא

Evidently, in 2023, I spent around a week updating my understanding of all these sources. Here's the Torah content from that week:
Overview of the Halachos of Rechilus and Lashon ha'Ra (4/21/23)
4/24/23: Refining Our Definitions of Rechilus and Lashon ha'Ra (Hilchos Deios 7:1-3)
4/25/23: Lashon ha'Ra = Avodah Zarah, Gilui Arayos, Shfichus Damim (Hilchos Deios 7:3)
4/26/23: Lashon ha'Ra as Homicide-Suicide (Hilchos Deios 7:3)
4/27/23: Four Examples of Avak Lashon ha'Ra Hilchos (Hilchos Deios 7:4)
4/28/23: Kedoshim: Defining Rechilus
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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Okay, go ahead, I think.

SPEAKER_03 0:16

What is then someone who's not on a very high level might think about this you know not like you know like something on the like a miracle or something like that, but like let's say like you know things working out for them in like a very specific way such that something happens um in a way where you were like you were like looking back, you'd be like, wow, there's like you know, like a million to one odds that it would happen just like that.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Right. Okay, so you're either asking me at the best time or at the worst time, because I'm teaching EOV and all my views of Hajj Gacha are undergoing change. Um so I'm not gonna answer you. I'm not gonna answer you based on what I think, uh, but I will answer you based on what I know, which is that um which is that uh every time I've looked into this issue, then um you have basically uh consensus in the generalities. This is what I call the Hajj Kaka protest chart. Um it might need updating, but um, and this is the one I use for high school. So like if I was making this for you, Shiva guys, it'd be slightly different. So on the x-axis, you have uh distance from and closeness to a sham. Now that's that's an area where you do have some dispute, and let's say in terms of seems to be that the Ramam holds it's it is knowledge, uh, whereas it seems like the Ramban holds that action somehow plays into that. Um, so for my students, I just put it in terms of intellectual perfection, ethical perfection, and observance of halacha, because those those are gonna be relevant no matter what. Like let's say you say that halakha is only um significant insofar as it develops you into a truth-seeking, knowing being. Whatever, fine. Okay, so that's the x-axis, and then the the y-axis is your life is governed by Hajjgaha plawless, like the rest of the physical creation. And then on at the top is your life is governed by Hajjgakha Pratis. And the thing that the Rishonim agree with is that your Hajjgah Pratis increases in proportion to your closeness to Hashem. And then I put here, I still don't know the best way to represent this, but Tfila as a dotted line in that tfilah can make a person eligible for Hajjgakha Pratis, regardless of his or her default level of closeness to God. Whether that works through a, for lack of a better term, exception, or whether tfila is purely a means, like an activity to uh raise your level of deservingness of Hashkaka Pratis, I think that's also a matter of debate. Uh, but the idea is that the closer you are to Hashem, then the more your life is governed by Hashgalka Pratis. So you have, for example, the um the Avos and Moshe Rabinu, um, you know, uh uh Aaron Amiriam, you know, uh at the very, very top, uh, you know, who every, you know, like Maginavraham is every detail is governed by Hajjgalha Pratis. And then as you get further away, then it is uh, you know, you're more under Hajka clause. But you see, even there, it's not solely based on your level, because if you take the opening suk in va'era, um, which I can never, oops, sorry, va'era is not in the Mishnah Torah. Um yet, no. Um uh parshas va'era. Uh Badbear Elohim El Mosheva Yum Elav and the Adonoi, Va'era El Avraham, El Yitzhakva El Yakov, be El Shadai, Ushmi, Adanoi Lono Dati Laham. Um, I think there are several Rishonim who say that what that means is that there were no open supernatural miracles for um for the Avos. Okay, don't tell that to the people who take the Kifshan Hayesh literally, okay. Um, but um, you know, and that that was something that was only done in uh U Tis Mitrayim for the unique objectives of Utis Mitraim of demonstrating to Paro and to Egypt and put to B'nai Israel, you know, that uh, you know, Kian Yashem Baker of Aris, Ken Yishem, you know, um uh Kilarashem arrats, all those other things. So like the reason I bring that up is it's not just a thing where like you're Av Ramavinu, you get supernatural miracles. You know, like apparently there are other considerations. You know, we have other considerations about how Hashem does not, so to speak, like to violate nature overtly, you know, if it's possible to do so through a uh uh uh you know a hidden miracle. And then you have the whole question that I avoid that I avoided discussing in the chat over Pesach, which is what are the mechanisms of miracles and how do those work? Um so because I don't know, I I I uh it's first of all, I feel like it's been beyond me for a very, very long time, but also I have not tried in a long time. Um, and I know there's big mock locus there between Ramam and Ramban, and also arguably between Ramam and Hazal, you know, and people what people think is the Ramam's view is really Hazal's view that he's quoting. Uh, and I have not gone to the Moria about it, so I just don't know the uh those things. I'm talking about the idea that miracles are programmed into nature. I think people quote that as the Ramam's view, but I've heard people who I trust more on their view of the Ramam say that that's the Ramam quoting Hazal's view. Um, and uh I don't know how to sort out why he quotes and to what extent he does and doesn't endorse it. Um and then in terms of even the way that you asked the question, Isaac, like the uh I know these weren't exactly your words, but like the the notion of diagnosing Hajjgaha Pratis based on how likely or unlikely you think something is and how much it did or did not work out. I don't even like the more I learn about Hajjgaha, the more uh the less inclined I am to think in those terms. So my my my views of Hajjgaha are in flux right now. Um so if you want to listen to it, or if you want to um know it, then stay tuned for listening to Mahakshava lab, me going through Eov, um, and listen to them all in order.

unknown 6:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

Is it also relevant that even if someone's not a little to review Hajjkaha, they could be like so they have yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

So that I actually meant to start off with that. Yeah, yeah. That um that you can be uh you could be a recipient of Hashgakha Pratis as a khapza or a gavra, right? As an object or as a person. Um and the best example of this is animals. Uh is that the the radak on um on Ashre. Uh Lim 145. I just want to get the good Radak here. Uh on, I think it's either Tobashem Lakhol. Wait, what is it? Or is it? Or is it Anihashem? I forgot which one where it is. I'll find it. Uh no, Posech. Oh, here we go. Yeah, yeah. It is on, where is this? Tsadi Hashem Bhagoldrachabhasibuch. Okay, so he says, I'm gonna read the whole thing just in case I can remember if the first part is relevant. Uh tsadik. Keep it seduc will be yosher no single echad oklo. So God gives um uh teaching about today, Neov. Um, each uh creature its food with tsadek and yosha with righteousness and uprightness. But alpha pichin, for sorry, alpha pishay torif esakaiba oklo, even though one creature will uh will uh predate another or will or prey on another uh and eat it, kumuha katula akbar, like uh like a cat and a mouse. Classic. Um uh dover and a lion and a bear and a is that a leopard? I was yeah, leopard, okay. Uh los chaos and other animals that that uh eat each other, I don't know what mufafim or what that that construct is with um right. I've just I don't usually see it as a noun, right? Um, as with flying creatures, ha ophosa dorsim ophos ha cherim, birds that prey on other birds, uh hakut sergmito, everything is is righteousness from him. Uh even the uh the animals and the birds that are prey, um God gives them their food in their time during their life. But when their time uh arrives to die, ghazer mikodem shitih misasa, then there is a prior gzirah that they die. Umim pahanas kaimachirim, um, sometimes uh at the pleasure of another animal, other times uh God decrees that they die on their own. And either uh by itself or or at the hands of another. So this is a big uh confusion among the Khachamim. I don't know if he means or like thinkers in general. They think that uh I think this might be the Mutu Khalimun, uh the um uh the uh Islamic theologians, um, that some say when the lion and the um and the sheep or the lamb and other things like that, uh uh when sorry, when the lion prays on the on the lamb, who onesh ha nitraf me'es hakel? It's a punishment decreed from God. And you can see some support for this in uh in Khazal. A reveal khan, Khathavi Khazi, uh shalak shashola dagim mehayam, hayomer, mishpatakatom rabah. Um, when he saw, is that a pelican? I don't know. I I forgot which animal the shalach is. Um when he saw this bird who like captured uh fish from the sea, he said your uh about God, your judgments uh are in the the great depths. Mehem omrim, some of them say ki ein gumulva onesh pokhomine hachaim el adam bavad. Some say that there's no reward and punishment for animals, uh, but only to humans. But no mar, we say gumulva onish lasharmine balekhaim, that there is reward and punishment for other species of animals, but only in terms of human involvement. Kihine Matsanu, umyad khokaya ed roshenu, we see that um this is by the Isir of uh of uh uh or this is by the uh Shavnitzosbine Noah that God will seek out the um the death of an animal that kills a person, right? That's uh nine five, I think. Uh nine five. This is the difficult possible. Oops, that's Shamos. Hold on. Um I know we're going, it seems like we're going far afield, but we're not. Um uh let me just look at Niminovetsky's eloquent translation here. Um wait. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right. So uh flesh uh with its soul, its blood you may not eat. The ach es dimachem, la nafho sechem ed rosh, miyad kolchaya ed roshenu, miat ha adam, miad ishakhiv edrosh as nevesha adam. So, and indeed, your blood, which is your soul, I will seek out from every animal I will seek it, and from every every man, from each man of his brother, I will seek the soul of man. So that makes it sound like God is going to punish an animal for killing a man, right? Um, oops, sorry, keep going to that. Um, so he says, Radak says, of the Nemar Veshod Bahemos Yi Kisan, uh the Neamar Begmul of Losh Kavar es Hakamor. Okay, Upirshu Rabuse Nozab, Gmul Kabemos, uh Kagon Hakamorv Hakelev, Ki Umru. Okay, uh sorry, he's just bringing a bunch of uh examples here. Uh, maybe this part I did not want to go into. Hold on. Yeah, this is gonna, yeah, this probably did not want to go into. Okay, but I'll just say my my uh my understanding of this is that um that there is Hajgakha pratis over animals, but only insofar as man is concerned, that let's say I'll give the easy example. Let's say you have a you're a farmer and you have livestock, it could be that your livestock comes under Hajgakha Pratis, but only as soccer owners for you, uh, but not because they deserve it. So Moshe Rosendal's point is that the same thing with for human beings is that we can be recipients of Hajjgalka Pratis by virtue of the fact that we are part of Klaisra, or by virtue of the fact that the we're Zara, you know, uh of the Avos, or by you know, um our connection with Aid Sadik or a Russia, you know. So that also is another complication. Yeah. Yeah, I guess I didn't need to go into all that, but yeah, yeah, it's on my mind because we have yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

So I have lots of questions actually on the comment chart and oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Uh let's go there. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

You could just explain anything there.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

Just explain anything.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

Like all the like major shit. Or like like, for example, the robot says that everything gets solved as off. Yeah, but uh causes many Jews to die, but happened to Doi, but one time ever. That's not like the causes just to die. Yeah, and that you're it's worse than all three out of the big the big three, and you don't you're a pro-fair, yeah, and whatever. Well, he has like lots of uh Ghana Tap. Yeah, I guess if you have thoughts on any of that.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Yeah, that's not really a question for a QA. Um, I would direct you to two places. One is I did give an updated cheer on my view of Loshan Hara and Rochilis two years ago, I think. Um, if you remind me in the chat, I'll uh I'll post it. Um, and then we went through this in in uh in my in um uh Rama Bacus. Um I I'm pretty sure we did all of uh the seventh Perak. And so I share thoughts there, which I can I can find the dates for that as well. Um yeah, Isaac?

SPEAKER_03 14:07

Yeah, I was just gonna I was gonna point to that. I think it's Forshire.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Forshire? Oh, nice. Okay, good. Yeah. Um yeah, I probably whatever thoughts I would give now, I probably share them because I don't think I've examined the Agadata um in depth there. One thing I will mention, just I feel like it's a PSA that does need to be mentioned, is when I first now look at we're talking a long time ago now. So my memory of this verbatim quote might not be verbatim, but when I first came to Yeshiva, I had been learning uh the sefer chapitzchaim, okay. Um, and I asked Rebbe a Shila about something in it. I remember holding the seifare, and he said something to the effect, and this is the verbatim quote that might not be verbatim, is you should be very careful with that seifair or something to that effect. Okay. Now, not only was it a long time ago, and I don't remember the exact verbatim quote, but I also processed it like at that time of my life, and I was also very new to learning at that time. But uh what I took from that is um something that I only substantiated later on, which is that um I think that there are different types of tsuras ha mitzvah in terms of their halachic details. So let's say, for example, Chavez Nida Kashrus are extremely technical and detailed. Okay. Um Ava Sashem, Yura Sashem, Anochi, that's those are mitzvos, but there's no prate dinim in the same technical sense. Like it's not legislated that way. Okay, and I think that's by design, you know. Same thing in Bihapta Uraha Kamocha, like like there are general guidelines, and it is a mitzvah, but it's not like legislated in all the the particulars. Okay. So I I there I read this paper, and it's a very long paper. Let's see if I can find it. Yeah. Called, let's see who, um, very long, 86 pages. Um uh called uh for by Benjamin Brown, From Principles to Rules and From Musir to Halacha, the Chabitz Kheim's rulings on libel and gossip. And his thesis, uh, I'll I'll say my my recollection of his thesis is basically that what the chubitzheim did is he attempted to halachify Lash and Hara. And in doing so, he transformed it into one of these technical areas of Halacha. And and whether you say that that is a good thing and an evolution of Halacha, and whether you say that that is a strays from what the um the intended design is, I think is a matter of opinion, you know. And my interpretation of what Rebbe meant is that the that the way that the Chubatim, I don't know how much if you've learned the Chabat Khaim uh on on, you know, it's say for Chubatheim, but like it is very, very technical and also alarmist. I mean, it is musr, you know, but it is very alarmist and um alarmist in the sense that like any move you do is gonna violate, you know, dozens of Del Risas and like you know, like that that kind of like, you know, a little bit fire and brimstone type musur, even though he wrote a separate safer uh called Shemir Salasham, which is that's his official um Musar safer on uh Latin Har. So uh it always struck me that like the Safer Club Time is many chapters long, and the Rambam has it in one chapter, and it's not even the entire chapter, you know. Uh like the principles are pretty much in the first uh five, five halakhos, you know, I think, right? So like you know, I I would just take that into account when you're when you're learning these uh these areas. I know that wasn't your question. Um, I also wanted to say that um uh I actually have a meeting scheduled with Rape Zach for today to ask Ashaila about Lash and Hara. Uh and I'm curious to see one of the things I'm curious about other than the answer is to see how he approaches it, you know. Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, exactly. No. Okay, that's a good question, though. Um uh so yeah, Ian Chan. Um yeah, all right. Next question.

SPEAKER_02 18:17

Yeah, yeah. So I have a question and it's uh part two from last DNA. Ooh, okay. Last DNA has to do at like what areas you're naturally easily learning. Yeah. To summarize, I think you said areas that uh have practical uh effects.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

That's one thing, yeah. That's one thing. Yeah. Yeah, I said I think what I said was that it's areas that transform the way I see reality that have practical ramifications.

unknown 18:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

So yeah, one aspects of that is is halahabard and rabban and the gumara about about splitting your learning into three. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Right. Yeah. So let me just read that halacha. Yeah. Um is in 111. Uh Vchaiv Adam Lashalish as Zaman Limidaso. So a person should uh certify his uh uh um uh his uh learning time. Shlish Batorsh Bhiksav, third in the written Torah, Shlish Batorsh Balpah, and a third in the oral Torah. He should uh uh understand and conceptualize, however, you want to translate that uh the end of the matter of a principle from its beginning, uh Vyoti Davar Midavar, and derive one principle from another, V Dhamadavar Lidav, and compare one principle to another, Vyadin, but midoshator and direction, and apply the midos that the Torah is expounded through, Achieidah ki ikarhamidos, until he knows how the uh the midos are, the root of the midos, the heacher mutter bookyhem shalom and piashmua, and how the uh one how the prohibited and permitted and other things are derived from that which is learned in Torah Walp, inyanzehu and ikra talmud, not like the defus, says Kumara, right? That's a big, big mistake. Um, even though Kamara means learning, but I think the connotation is or denotation is like very different. Okay, um so K Tad, how so? Hayabal Umanus, if he was a uh craftsman, a worker, but malakha shalosha os bayom. Uh yeah, that's the life. Uh, and he uh he works, does his work for three hours a day, Vator Tesha, and he's got only nine hours for learning. Uh Osana Tesha, so those nine, Kore Bishalosh mehen batorshbiksab. You should read for three hours in torshboksab, uh three in torsbaph, you should contemplate with his mind to understand one matter from another. Divri Kabbalah, uh Bihlal Torsh Bhiksabhain. Okay, so uh so plaimsha is that's the that's Nach. Okay, I mean, I'm sure you could argue about what Divir Kabbalah is exactly. Uh that's included in Torsh Bhiksab, Pirushan and their explanation, Bihlal Torshbal Peh, Va in Yanasani Prime Pardis, Miklal Tamud. Okay, and pardais, which is Tor, uh which is um uh my um uh Dabr Katam Dabrgadl uh is um you know Masabreshis and Mas Mirkava, uh, which is the topics of the first four Prahmiv of Yasodya Torah is included in Talmud. Ba meidvarma murim, when when does this uh Shlish uh uh principle apply? Uh Batchilas Lim Talmudosha Adam at the beginning of a person's learning. Aval kishiyagdial bhachma, but when a person uh develops in chakma, lullah so tami bhtors, and he no longer needs to learn torsh biksav nor to delve constantly into torshbal peh, yikura bi itim muzumanim torshbhsav divirhashmua. Then he should read at um set times uh torsh bhakhsav and the the divirhashmua, kideshalo yishkah davar midri Dine Torah, so that he doesn't forget any of the principles of Dine Torah, the fane koya mav la Talmud Bilva, the fi rochab libovyushivdato, and turn all of his uh days, devote all of his days to Talmud in accordance with the broadness of his mind and the subtleness of his uh of his das. Okay, right. So one thing you see from here is that what the Rama means by Talmud is not at all what mean by Talmud. Okay. That it is first of all, um, first of all, it's not Talmud Bhavli, right? It is at very least what we would call, even though what we would call svara, right? But conceptual learning. The essence of Talmud is not a set text, it is conceptual learning. But also it involves things that we don't do, like understanding the Yugamiroshtor and Yrashis Bahan. And it includes also things that we, I don't know, we, you know, the the yeshivish world does not necessarily do, which is understanding how the practical halakha emerges from the Talmud. And it also includes metaphysics and physics. Okay. And also our Torswalpeh is not what people understand as Torj Balpah, right? Our Torswap, you know, uh best source is uh to know what the Roman means by Torj Balpah is in the Hagdama where he says if you read the Mishnah Torah with the Torsbatsav then you would know all of Torswalpe right so it is the the the Mishnah Torah which is if you had to like like boil it down it's not synonymous with the dinim but it you know I I think the closest like subject in high schools that would be correspond to Torj Walpe is not Mishnah. It's Halacha. And so it it's that so so the whole thing the whole scheme of this is is not even in the categories that we talk that that we talk about here. And furthermore you know uh I I think I gave shear on this in my first year in yeshiva is who is I don't want to if if we if we put a blame on one person for why the standard Ashkenazi curriculum is Talmud Bavli who would we put the blame on Rafi. No I think where do you think Rabin Tama Rubin Tom yeah yeah I mean I know it's not given startup okay right right but but I think when when they bring it down La Halaha right I think it's framed as like you know that's Rabinath that that basically that we get all of our Tors Bhaksa and Tors Balpeth through Talmud and that's what shifted the curriculum in Ashkenazi you know practice to learning more Talmud Bavli whereas in the Spartic lands and um Andalusian you know whatever it was it was my understanding traditionally more close to the Schleich thing. And then there's the reality of is lasos Hefe Torseha which is my understanding is that like a lot of these decisions about what to teach and how and what to spend your time in has been dictated by historical exigencies that like things are you know if we don't preserve the Mysora of how to learn Talmud Badli, hala falls apart, you know, and things like that. So so um your original question was how just repeat your question I want to make my original question was uh things done your learning style how do you approach this right so um so the thing is is that there was a time when I actually did try to go back to this um where um I uh what did I do I did the Torsh Baksav with Torsh Baksav and I did the Torsh Bopel with Mishnah Torah and then I did the Talmud with I I I forgot what the timeline was if I was still in shear at the time um but I also did like um like using raw bog to bridge the uh the gap so I did try this for a time and then there was another time you remember Isaac when I went in in in 2020 to 2021 when I realized that like my urim that I gave fit along these three lines I think we we noticed that um I don't know if you remember that yeah yeah that sounds familiar yeah and like it it it was along those lines but honestly like I don't aim to do this schlish thing uh and and not to put the blame on all of Jewish society and my Rabbein but I don't see my Rubim doing this either you know I don't see you know and I don't think that they would say that they know all of I mean maybe some of my Rubin but like I don't think I don't think they would say that like oh we know all of Taurus Bakhsav and all of Torshak most people I know haven't even read including myself haven't even read all of Tanakh and don't know the entire Mishnah Torah. You know so like I get the impression that it's like whatever works for your learning now and that's kind of the principle that I've been uh uh you know using and again I'm not attempting to justify it halakhically I also don't even know what the halahic status of this is when he says like again I speaking of technical halakh versus guidelines I don't know of anyone who is holding a stopwatch you know and making an account of their day in that exact you know manner and I don't know what to make of that um but to answer your question for me it has just been whatever has made my learning work and I honestly do think that like I I still do think that I do more of this schlish thing than a lot of other people because I do think that Tors Bhaksav is understudied and I think that that Mishnah Torah is understudied. And I also think that my version of Talmud from this is much more expansive than uh you know than what the um you know what the Ram says for example like I spend a great deal of my Shabbos doing Torah T Mima on the parsha and Torah Tmima is understanding Heah Yotiha Usurva Mutter uh sorry as a Heyach Yadin Mimoshotur in address Japan you know um so yeah Isaac I would love to take your question but I have to go right now uh because I have a good idea I'm just gonna advertise brief advertisement for the archokan as well oh yeah yeah that's okay that that was a big thing also Arachoshulchan I feel is the best Seder Halimud to get all three because the Arachokan when Torsh Bhiksav obviously he's not gonna be taking you through like the narrative portions but but he starts with the Torsh Bhiksav of the the halakhs then he goes through the Torshappet and then he goes through the Talmud all the way to Halakhalama that's why I my my my diet of practice is rooted in Mishnah Torah with Arachulchan uh because uh I think that's the best uh the best uh you know uh way to do it and what the Ram will cause Talmud he also does in terms of like conceptualizing and trying to explain the reasoning if he's not a brisker. Yeah. Okay. All right good QA. Yeah uh