E111 – From Bud to Boss featuring Kevin Eikenberry

The moment you step into leadership, everything changes. That friendly dynamic you once shared with teammates transforms overnight into something more complex and challenging. Suddenly, the person you shared drinks with last Friday is now the one whose performance you must evaluate on Monday.

In this compelling episode, Kevin Eikenberry, Chief Potential Officer of the Kevin Eikenberry Group and host of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, breaks down the delicate transition from team member to team leader. With nearly 30 years of leadership experience, including over a decade managing remote teams before it became commonplace, Kevin offers rare insight into navigating what he calls the "bud to boss" transition—that crucial career moment when friendship and authority must find a new equilibrium.

Kevin’s Episode Links:

1. Website: http://KevinEikenberry.com

2. About Me: http://KevinEikenberry.me

3. YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@KevinEikenberry

4. Bud To Boss YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BudtoBossOfficial

5. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevineikenberry/

Kevin’s Recommended Book/Movie/Podcast List:

Books:

1. The Bible

2. Any book by Tom Peters or Peter Drucker

Movies:

1. Lincoln

2. Hoosiers

Podcasts:

1. Long-Distance Work life – Produced by our team (hosted by Wayne Turmel and Marisa Eikenberry)

2. Read to Lead with Jeff Brown

Chapters

• 0:00 Introducing Trench Leadership Podcast
• 1:42 Meeting Kevin Eikenberry
• 4:14 The Bud to Boss Transition
• 9:11 Balancing Relationships as a New Leader
• 15:22 Leadership Strengths and Comparisons
• 21:41 Learning from Leadership Mistakes
• 27:22 Avoiding New Leader Pitfalls
• 34:10 The Three O's of Leadership
• 39:59 Resources and Final Thoughts

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:07

I would like to begin this episode by acknowledging that I am located in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, and I am privileged and honoured to live and learn on the unceded, unsurrendered territory of the Anishinaabe Algonquin Nation.

Speaker 2: 0:24

Hello, you're listening to Trench Leadership, a podcast from the front produced by iGlenn Studios, a show for emerging leaders from all professions To hear from other leaders who have led from the front, made the mistakes, had the triumphs and are still learning along the way. And now here's your host, simon Cardinal.

Speaker 1: 0:52

Hello and welcome to Trench Leadership, a podcast from the front, a show for emerging leaders. The transition from a team member to being the leader is never, ever easy. One day we're hanging out, being buddies with everyone, and the next day we're in charge, having to make decisions, pushing to meet organizational deadlines, having to make the tough calls, doing all of it, and none of it is easy. So how can we make that leap from bud to boss, creating strong and impactful teams? In this episode, you'll hear from Kevin Eikenberry, Chief Potential Officer of the Kevin Eikenberry Group and host of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast. Kevin will offer advice and inspiration for frontline leaders to be their most remarkable selves during the transition from bud to boss. But, as always, it's never about me, it's about the guests. So I'm going to go ahead and welcome in Kevin. Hey Kevin, how are you doing today?

Speaker 3: 1:48

Simon, I'm fantastic Glad to be with you. We finally got this put together.

Speaker 1: 1:50

I'm glad to be here. We finally figured this out. There was some confusion, a little bit of internetery going on, but it worked out well. We're finally here and this is fantastic. I'm super excited to have a conversation about this particular topic because it's near and dear to my heart and it's something that comes up in so many of our episodes, but I'm not going to tell people what the topic is just yet. Before we do that, how about you take a moment and just tell us a little bit about yourself, your journey and, ultimately, how we got to this point?

Speaker 3: 2:18

I was born on the day. I grew up on a farm. I grew up in a farm family and we had a variety of farm and agriculture related businesses. The reason that matters here is that I found myself working with my father and learning and spending a lot of time with adults long before I was an adult and had the chance to lead long before I was an adult, long before I was an adult, and so that plays a role in the fact that you know I now lead and run a company. That plays a role into my initial thinking about what leadership is, can and should be, and hopefully helps me make my leadership thinking very practical.

Speaker 3: 2:58

And so now, simon, after a few other things along the way, for nearly 30 years I've led a company called the Kevin Eikenberry Group, and for the last 20 plus of that, it's not just been Kevin but it has actually been a group, and there are currently 14 of us spread out across the United States. So I'm leading a team every day. That is virtual. One person comes to the office a couple days a week. Fundamentally, for well over a decade, I've led a fully remote or hybrid team, and we're out in the world helping leaders make a bigger positive difference in the world, and the most challenging part of that is the first time we do it.

Speaker 1: 3:37

Yeah, absolutely. The good news is for the listeners out there. If you're thinking, wow, this team has been working virtually for long, before COVID was even a word people had heard of, and you're thinking, wow, I sure hope they have a conversation about that, not to worry, that will be coming down the road, that's on its way. But for today we're going to talk about that crazy transition that happens when we go from being someone's friend, their buddy in the team, their bud, to being that boss and the challenges and everything that comes with being inside that transition. So, kevin, I'm going to try and be quiet and let you take it away. Tell us about that transition and what your thoughts are.

Speaker 3: 4:14

Well, my colleague and friend and I got here and wrote a book about that called From Bud to Boss. That came out in 2011. We had been working with leaders in that situation, built a workshop around that prior to that. So a lot of times people will write a book.

Speaker 3: 4:29

Simon, this was the other way around, at least the first round of it. So when we got ready to write the book from Bud DeBoss, we knew from the training we'd done what the most important questions people had were. So we made that list and we said the book's not done until we've answered all those questions. So the book isn't written around those. I think it was about 20 questions exactly, but we made sure that the answers to all of those were in there Because, as I said, hinted at earlier, that transition to being a leader for the first time is the most challenging in our career, and especially if we happen to now be leading people that we used to work side by side. Like last week we went for a beer and next week, simon, I'm doing your performance review. Like that's hard.

Speaker 1: 5:13

Right, that's hard oh, very, very much so, and I know, like my experience with that, were in the canadian military, in the air force, and it was very difficult because, especially in the canadian air force, I was very difficult because, especially in the Canadian Air Force I can't speak to the American Air Force, but for us the strength of the Air Force is that it creates and fosters an environment whereby everyone on the team, regardless of their rank, feels as though they have an opportunity to have a voice, to speak up, and that culture predominantly exists to help with airworthiness and ensure aircraft and personnel safety. So it's fantastic. It's a very strong, robust program.

Speaker 1: 5:50

The challenge with that is it also helps people forget sometimes that they're in the military and that there's a very clearly defined chain of command. So what happens a lot of times is someone will be on a particular wing because in Canada we call our air bases wings and one day you're in doing your thing, you're a corporal on the team and you're so corporals are workers, strictly workers and then all of a sudden you're promoted. The next day you're the master corporal and you're in charge and, like you just said, all of a sudden, literally that next day, you're writing annual evaluations on the person you're out having beers with and a lot of times the expectation is we're going to talk about your evaluations during the next round of beers. It causes a lot of confusion and challenges inside that. Do you have any thoughts on that at all?

Speaker 3: 6:33

Oh. So let's start here. A lot of times, people say, well, man, it would just be so much easier if I were leading people that didn't know me, and I would say, maybe, but let's think about this. Are there pitfalls, stumbles and challenges that we can come across, based on what Simon has just described? Of course, think about it. Would you rather have the chance to lead people that already know you, that you have a relationship with, that you have some trust in, that you have some experience with, or people with whom there is none of that? And I think that, yes, there are challenges and such, but I'd pick the first, every day, all day long, and twice on Sunday, because, at the end of the day, what people want from a leader is someone that they know, like and trust, and you've got a leg up on that. Hopefully, if you've gotten promoted and you know, hopefully the team does know you but also likes you and trusts you. Now we just have to refocus, change the boundaries a bit, perhaps, and really get some new clarity about expectations and roles. And, as I said, regardless of when you make this move into a leadership role, there's a lot of new skills and stuff that you need to build, but if you're doing that with people who literally are your friends. There's this other set of transition conversations that we probably need to have, and we can talk about those if you want, but we have to get clear about how we want our relationships to be now.

Speaker 3: 8:01

Leaders make a couple of mistakes. When they're in this case, they either decide to move away and become aloof or to remove themselves because they're afraid of the friendship. Right, or they lean into the friendship and say it'll all be fine because we already know each other and all will be well, and neither of those is the right answer. You need a strong working relationship. If you are friends, great. If you become friends, I think that's fine.

Speaker 3: 8:29

The challenge for us as leaders is to be friendly but not to try to make a friend. Right To be likable, but not try to be liked. And the mistake on the one end is I want to be liked. I want them to still like me. I want to still be a yes, I'm the boss, but I'm still a member of the team.

Speaker 3: 8:47

Like, be aware that you might get invited if you were barbecues now, and you have to be okay with that, but you need to have a conversation with people about, like, how are we going to work together now? What is okay for us to talk about or not? And I think, ultimately, what are the thing you have to recognize. I'll just say, if it's you, simon, we're buddies, but now I'm the boss, Simon, some of the stuff that we used to talk about. If we talk about it now, I can't take off my boss hat, I just can't. It's part of my role. Now. Maybe there's some things that you will choose not to tell me about what's going on on the team, not because you don't trust me, but because you know that I don't want you to put me in a situation where I have to take action that you might have assumed I wouldn't, just because we always used to talk about it, but now I have a different role and I have to take that seriously.

Speaker 1: 9:41

That's a big challenge for leaders to remember that there is going to be some changes there. It's not just about a little bit of a pay bump or the added responsibility someone may or may not have been looking for. There are going to be fundamental changes and to be okay with that and I think for myself when I was going through these things a lot of times it came down to having an honest conversation with myself. Starting with that and being honest what am I looking for? Am I okay with this? Where?

Speaker 3: 10:09

do. I want to go Ask myself those questions, to be honest with myself and go from that. Do you have any thoughts A hundred percent Like we've got to be clear about so? So whether we aspired to this or whether it was offered to us or whatever. But you know, we've put on our pants every morning right In the past, or our clothes, I guess, I should say. And tomorrow, after the promotion, we're going to put on our clothes again and we're going to think things haven't changed because we're still us.

Speaker 3: 10:30

But a lot of things have changed. We have to start working on and building some new skills. We're going to be seen differently by the team, even if they already know us, and we can say it's not fair. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't, but it is reality. Because here's the thing If you grew up and I will speak only to Western culture, although I'm not sure it's all that different anywhere else If you grew up in Western culture, there's all sorts of stuff in the back of our heads about the boss right, we heard it around the dinner table, we saw it on the TV.

Speaker 3: 11:01

Heck, there was a movie called Horrible Bosses, and then they made a sequel, like they never made a movie called Awesome Boss, but it was not hard for people to say, oh yeah, horrible Boss. I had one of those ones and in fact, depending on the kind of work that you're doing, you may have gotten promoted from the shop floor. And now people are saying you went to the dark side, you changed teams, you aren't in the union anymore. I'm just saying all stuff that I've heard a million times, and so the reality is, yes, you're still you the next day, but the way people see you is now not just you, but it's boss you. And we have to recognize that the standard has changed. The expectations have changed, the way people look at us has changed. We have to be self-aware to your point enough to do what we're going to need to do to be successful in the new role.

Speaker 1: 11:57

Absolutely. A lot of times we're talking. You had mentioned about Western society and the way we view a little bit. You touched on the way we view leaders and I think a big part of why people tend to get caught up how we're going to move forward from going from that buddy to the boss ideology is because the metrics that are used for valuing success are moving up a chain of command or moving up that corporate ladder or whatever that is, and that inevitably means more responsibility, more leadership, responsibility, whatever that might be. But is that what a person wants? We?

Speaker 3: 12:29

don't know yet Exactly. I mean, there are lots of folks who, well, if I want to be successful, I want to be seen as successful, if I want to make mom proud, I need to be promoted, and success looks like making more money, et cetera, like there's a whole bunch of that stuff and I'm not saying it's all through, but it's all in many of our heads. It's certainly in the collective society's head, and so sometimes we put pressure on ourselves to do that because that's what we think we should do, what we're expected to do, what someone else wants us to do. And more and more organizations, especially organizations of any size, are building ways for people to be promoted and to be differently rewarded, sort of on a technical track versus a leadership track. But if that's not true in your situation I think back to your point about having the conversation with yourself is really important, because there's a lot of responsibility that comes with leading a team as as well as opportunities in terms of the impact that we can have on others as well as the business.

Speaker 3: 13:29

But it's a big set of responsibilities and if you're feeling like you've started, you're feeling like I'm not sure that's what I want, then I think you need to really think about it and it's too important to try to do it halfway and chances are you got promoted because you didn't do it halfway before.

Speaker 1: 13:48

Exactly.

Speaker 3: 13:49

And that will get in your way too. It's like, well, you know, I'm kind of skating by, but you didn't skate by before, most likely, or you would never gotten the promotion. So I think it's really important to spend that time thinking about what is it that I really want here? And if this is what I want, great, because it's all skills that you can learn and you can work on getting better at. And listening to Simon's podcast and maybe listening to mine or reading our book from Bud DeBoss may help. There's a lot of things, a lot of resources, to help you on that growth path. Don't get discouraged if it's hard, but just make sure that you really want to be committed to doing that.

Speaker 1: 14:23

Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean one of the things that I've seen over my career, especially in the Air Force. Not so much when I was in the infantry because I was a young kid I was 19 to 24. So I'm okay with admitting I was still pretty immature when I got into the Air Force and I started getting close to promotions for myself some of the teams I came across people that were turning down their promotions and I couldn't wrap my mind around them, like why wouldn't you want to do this? And I'd ask them like what are you thinking? Like you can't do anything in this.

Speaker 1: 14:49

And what I respected was the guy it happened in this case it was a guy and he said to me he's like well, I don't, I don't want the responsibility, why would I do that? And and that really struck a chord with me and that's kind of the first time it sparked a thought in my mind do I want to do more work? Do I want to that added responsibility? In my case that happened to be yes. But around that time I also started looking at other leaders that were getting promoted, especially in those first roles, those emerging leaders, a master corporal in the Air Force and I saw.

Speaker 1: 15:28

I was able to watch people just be absolutely miserable. Some people were it was because they were figuring out how to be, how to find their own flavor of leadership, but a lot of people, I'll tell you they did not want to be in that role and they regretted it, but they were. There was a lot of concern and I asked a couple of people and it was like, well, I get paid a bit more, so that helps my family and I want people to respect me and I'm thinking well, I'll respect the person regardless.

Speaker 3: 15:55

They already respected you, you wouldn't have been promoted. That's exactly. You bring up that word respect. I think what we really want is to be respected for who we are and what we do, not the role that we have. So I feel like if that's a reason I want to be promoted, it's probably not a very good one, because what you're actually hoping to gain you're not going to gain for the reasons you want to gain it, if that makes sense. I've had the chance to help literally hundreds of leaders that are in this transition or have been through this transition. The issues are similar for all of us.

Speaker 3: 16:30

Being a leader is a complex set of things. There's a lot of things that we have to do to keep a plane airborne or to make it airworthy, and I don't know them and you do, but what I know is it's a long list and it's a lot of stuff. I also know that it's kind of a discrete list. When we do these things, the plane's going to be good to go. When we're leading, it's not as black and white as that and there's not only one single way to do it.

Speaker 3: 16:54

There's a number of things that probably got us successful as an individual contributor that we really have to shift our approach. We really have to shift our mindset. We have to shift our approach. We really have to shift our mindset. We have to shift our mindset around relationships, which we've talked a little bit about, but we also have to shift our mindset around the perspective that we need to have. You have to start to become a student of different things if you want to be an effective leader than being the student that you were, to become a highly effective and valued individual contributor. So there's just things we have to think about and look at and learn differently than when we were in an individual contributor. So there's just things we have to think about and look at and learn differently than when we were in an individual contributor role. And if that's not what you want to sign up for, then don't sign up for it no-transcript.

Speaker 1: 18:07

This is going to take time.

Speaker 3: 18:08

Well, it's this one now Come on.

Speaker 1: 18:09

That's different. That's totally different. I'm teasing. Go ahead. And the trick with all of this is to be patient. Understand that it's going to take a while to figure out ourselves. Very few people are natural leaders with quotations, and even if they are perceived to be that way, it's because they spent a lot of time on introspective thoughts and considerations to figure out exactly where they wanted to go. No one will convince me that JFK, magically, was a superb leader. He took time to figure it out Great speech writer but he took time to figure out the type of leader he wanted to be.

Speaker 3: 18:42

Here's the thing People ask me all the time, kevin are leaders made or are they born? And my answer is yes. I mean there are things about who you are, as you're listening or watching us right now, that are the seeds of you being a highly effective leader. They're not the same things that are the seeds, necessarily, for me or for Simon or for a colleague of yours, and yet it's not just genetics. It's like you learn how to ride a bicycle right, and if you learn how to ride a bicycle in a neighborhood, not everyone learns to ride at the same speed, the same rate. Some of us seem to be better at it faster.

Speaker 2: 19:18

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 19:19

Right. And even if you didn't, even if you grew up on a farm like I did, you sort of know that that's true. Like, some people learn it faster than others, and there's reasons why, and some of them are genetic. Like you have better hand-eye coordination, you have better balance. Like you got there faster. Question is so there are some people that had better bike riding genes. Okay, who's the best bike rider today? The people that put their butt on a seat and ride. Not the people that might've been fastest to learn it, for whom it came easiest to at the start. But those who keep learning, keep doing, keep trying, keep practicing. And, of course, riding a bicycle is far simpler than is leadership. But I think the metaphor is apt. If you're new and you're struggling a little bit, it's common for people to say man, I just wish I was as good at this as Simon. Simon's got this figured out. I'll never be as good at this as Simon.

Speaker 3: 20:23

Said no one ever but sure, To which I would say stop putting the comparison in the wrong place. What we tend to do is we tend to compare ourselves to people who are truly expert and that seems like such a big gap right and that's rarely serving us.

Speaker 3: 20:47

Can you learn from Simon? Yes, keep listening to the podcast. Can you learn from the leader that is around you? Yes, keep observing them and get mentoring from them. But trying to become them or comparing yourself to them is a losing battle. It's not the right thing to do.

Speaker 2: 21:04

Oh, hello there. It's Glenn, the voiceover artist, and if you're hearing me, that means we're at the midpoint of this episode. Do you have an idea for an episode that you feel is vital for emerging leaders? Leave the idea in the comment section and, if your topic is chosen, you will have the opportunity to join us as a co-host during the recording session. So drop us a note and let's talk. This podcast is made possible by listeners like you, and if you feel we've earned it, please tell your friends and leave a review to help us grow our following. And now back to the show.

Speaker 1: 21:45

Oh, absolutely, you know, I think of you, know we've talked about hero worship and we most leaders, have someone like you had just spoken about, have someone we look to and say, gee, I sure wish I'd like to be that person.

Speaker 3: 21:55

Like Simon everybody.

Speaker 1: 21:57

Like Simon exactly, I'll go with that.

Speaker 1: 21:58

Sure, you know there's like, hey, I really liked the way that person talks about that, or the way Simon speaks this way or whatever.

Speaker 1: 22:06

I want to be that person and often when I've had those types of conversations I say to people well, figure out what works best for you, keeping in mind that the way I do it works is it's a bit for me. That doesn't mean that I my way of doing things is perfect for every, every individual, and it's about finding the flavor that works for ourselves. And and I'd also like to caution people about hero worship it it can often give us rose-colored glasses on what we think about a person's leadership perspective or everything in general, and that can be dangerous when we're trying to maybe emulate aspects of what that leadership is going to go towards. So my advice might be to people to remember that everyone poops, that at the end of the day, no matter what, we are all people and we're all going to go to the bathroom and not one of us is any more special or important than the other. We all poop and it's the universal equalizer.

Speaker 3: 23:01

I think this is an important conversation because here's the reality. I've done this exercise hundreds of times. You got a group of people in the room. Say think of a leader that you think of as highly effective. Don't tell me who. Just think of a person, now, write down five reasons why they're good. Everyone makes their list. Five reasons, 10 reasons, three reasons, whatever. Everyone writes their list down and then I say tell me stuff on your list. And we put the list on a flip chart or on a virtual whiteboard or whatever. We make the list from the group's list. The group is saying these people are great leaders, here's what they do. And then we put the list up on the wall and then I say well, who's that? And nobody is that, and even your person isn't all of that. Because what we've now done is we've said a great leader is all of these things and we could say that's all true, but there's no one that is at the top of all of those things.

Speaker 1: 23:51

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3: 23:53

Wayne Gretzky might be the greatest hockey player ever, but he wasn't the greatest every part of being a hockey player ever. He can't have a fatal flaw. If Gretzky couldn't have skated, the rest wouldn't have mattered, and if you watch his career, he got better at some things as his career went on. He's never going to be the best defenseman ever Doesn't mean he's not a great hockey player. You can be a great leader without being great at every leadership. Behavior Can't have a fatal flaw. If you're playing basketball, you got to be able to dribble. If you're playing hockey, you got to be able to skate. If you're driving NASCAR, you got to be able to turn left. But like the point is that you can't have a fatal flaw. But then what you got to do is have a really healthy understanding of strengths and weaknesses, and I work on my weaknesses and work on my strengths. You thought of a great leader based on their best strengths, not because of absence of weakness.

Speaker 1: 24:53

Yeah, I absolutely agree with that, and it's what we're looking at and how we want to interpret that information is what we're basing our decisions and our judgment on, and that's a big part of that, and recognizing that it's challenging though, especially when we're feeling the pressure to get, when we're inside these roles and all of a sudden we're thrust into the positions. Hopefully the organization has set the individual up, helped the member receive some training or some type of leadership education. More often than not, that's not the case and that's challenging. So maybe someone should go read a book called From Bud to Boss to help them get through their things. I'll just throw that out there.

Speaker 3: 25:29

Well, that would be helpful. From Bud to Boss is a great place to start. But let me go back to something else you just said, and that is sometimes maybe the organization hasn't set us up to succeed by giving us training or whatever. But there's other ways organizations may not have set us up to succeed, like not giving us clear expectations of what we're supposed to do. And so when you said we put pressure on ourselves yes, often we do, and we often put pressure on ourselves in ways that isn't helpful, like sometimes we'll say to ourselves well, as I'm the leader, so I must have all the answers. No, and in fact, have you ever had a boss that was a know-it-all? And if you have, you're probably saying, well, that's not the one I want, so why would we even put that expectation on ourselves? It's just, it's not healthy, it's not helpful and it's not even the right answer ultimately.

Speaker 3: 26:12

But what I want to go back to is don't lament if the organization hasn't done the things to set you up to succeed. If you don't know clearly what's expected of you ask, keep going back and say listen, I want to do the best I can possibly do as a leader. I need to know what the bar is. Help me understand what are the most important things you need me to be doing in my role to help us reach our goals. If you don't know those things, you need to ask until you get them, and I can tell you that you might not get them right away, because sometimes people aren't used to being asked that question, but they really want you to be successful. Don't lament that they haven't given you training. Go get it, or listen to more of this podcast, or go read from Bud DeBoss or whatever. Don't just wait. Act.

Speaker 1: 26:54

And that's a big part of that is that that action to actually go and do something, quite often in the absence of any real information. We'll just fill those gaps, we'll fill the blind spots with whatever we choose to go with.

Speaker 3: 27:06

More often than not it tends to go to the far right extreme of some type of worst case scenario yeah, and the other thing we do when we don't know what we're supposed to do as a leader, we start doing what we've seen other people do, even if they weren't good.

Speaker 1: 27:22

I'm vigorously nodding my head right now.

Speaker 3: 27:25

Right. So and then, if you ask them well, did you like it when they did that? No, so don't do it.

Speaker 1: 27:39

Right, absolutely. I remember one time when I was a new sergeant and I was in teaching basic training and I'm doing all my different stuff and we're training the candidates and everything's going great, or so I thought. And then come to find out afterwards I thought I was doing a fantastic job. So one of the days I was, as I'm going through this course, I'm talking to students, so how are things going? And all the candidates are like, oh, it's going great, sarge thanks, big thumbs up and smiles and whatnot. So one time I was coming around and I just asked this question and then I said, yeah, right on, great. And I, I.

Speaker 1: 28:02

This was also my, my realization for me, where I realized that I was doing drive by questions. So I would, I would be cruising by and I'd ask them a question and I wouldn't even stop walking Right, so I'm not. The message I was sending them was I'm going to ask the question Cause I feel like I know I should, but not even take the time to stop and listen to the response. So I got around the corner in this drive-by question and I realized I forgot my pen or something. So I turned the corner, made my way back around and, as I'm coming back, I can now hear them saying why is he even asking us this? He doesn't give a shit about us.

Speaker 1: 28:45

I hope that's okay that I swore, but that's what they said, and I'm like ooh, ooh. That stings Because, without going into the long-winded details about why I wanted to teach basic training, this was a career goal that I wanted to do because I experienced very strong leadership during basic and I wanted to be that person and I've realized that maybe that wasn't the case and it helped me drastically change the type of leader and the methods that I want to use as a leader going forward. So it's interesting that for me, it was. Do you have any thoughts on that at all?

Speaker 3: 29:07

Well, what I would say is that if we want to be a highly effective leader even from the start, we need to be a learner, and we've been talking about that certainly. And one of the ways that we need to learn is by getting feedback, and we've been talking about that certainly. And one of the ways that we need to learn is by getting feedback, and one of the things that changes once you got promoted is that people, like they, don't want to give you feedback because you're the boss. So if we really want feedback from our team, we have to ask. We have to ask often, we have to ask earnestly, we have to shut up and listen. We have to. When they give it to us, we need to thank them, even if it was hard to hear, because the only way we'll get it is if we keep asking for it and if they see us taking some action on it, if they feel like why is he asking? Because he's never going to do anything, they're not going to say it.

Speaker 1: 29:50

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3: 29:52

Like what's the point? None of us would right. So I think it's a really, really important point.

Speaker 1: 29:58

Those, those guys, gave you a gift they, they really did, they really did and it's. It's interesting because that that actual, that same course, the, the candidates, they ranged anywhere from between 18. I had one member, he was 52 when he joined, going into the combat engineers. I was pretty impressed with that and so same idea I would was going through asking questions how's it going, how's the training, what's good, what's bad? And a lot of the 18, 19 year olds like, oh, it's fine, sarge, you know it's tough.

Speaker 1: 30:26

This gentleman who was 52, he's like you know what. I don't agree with this. I don't agree with that. This doesn't make any sense and, more of the point, I don't know why I'm doing anything that that I'm doing and that sticks with me a bit because I remember. Okay, it's important for me to give the why to things. Now, the precursor to that or the, the thing I will say for this particular example is this is basic training. The whole point of basic training for non-commissioned members is to do what you're told to do, without question you've got to be able to do that.

Speaker 3: 30:58

But the point of the why I mean.

Speaker 1: 30:59

But even if he knew that and that's exactly the thing. I sat him down and said hey, man, this is, this is why you're here to do what you're told, without asking questions. And I explained that and actually I pulled out the training syllabus and I showed him the write-up for that. Your role is to learn how to perform in a team of five to 10 people without dot, dot, dot, without questions. He's like oh okay, that makes sense.

Speaker 3: 31:25

And now he's got it.

Speaker 1: 31:26

He's got it and it was important to understand that. And the lesson I took out of that was to remember that when I'm talking to people is that it's important to. Even though it's so obvious to me, it might not necessarily be the case for others. And when we're talking about people going from that position of being one of the team, one of the buds, to all of a sudden being the boss, this is where those conversations are so important. The new leader might be thinking, well, obviously I'm not going to go have beers with you because I'm the boss. But they might be thinking, oh, he thinks he's too cool for school, he's not going to have drinks with us. Have the conversations.

Speaker 3: 32:02

So have the conversation and say, hey, I'm not going to do that and and you, as the buds, might not love it, but at least you'll understand it and we're not creating some story that's not really the truth. We have to have those transition conversations about how we're going to operate, what we're going to expect, what we can talk about, what we can't talk about, what you can expect of me as your boss. No, I'm going to do my very best not to in any way help people think that I'm giving you favoritism. And if you get promoted and people know that you're close friends with this person over there, then hopefully you can say this Don't do it if it's not honest. But you need to say to the whole team too listen, I know that. You know that Simon and I have been buddies since high school and I'm going to do my very best to not do anything that looks like favoritism, because I want to help all of you succeed. Yes, simon and I have been friends for a long time. Yes, I want him to succeed, but no more than I want the rest of you to succeed too long time. Yes, I want him to succeed, but no more than I want the rest of you to succeed too.

Speaker 3: 33:02

Now, that's all gotta be true. But if it's true and you lay it out, in fact, what will actually happen is, if you really do, that is, you'll probably overcompensate in the wrong way to Simon. But that's okay too, really, because if you but if you guys have never talked about it you and your bud it may, you may have been in this role for seven months and you're saying, kevin and Simon, that's silly, it's all working just fine. Someday it won't, and when it comes, the longer it's been without having that conversation, the worst it will be when it does happen. And so, even if you've been in this role five, six, seven, eight, nine months and you've never had these kinds of conversations, you need to do it now, and they may not have to be a big deal, but you need to have them and you can't wait for them. You need to have them.

Speaker 1: 33:42

Oh, 100%. So I absolutely agree those conversations. They are invaluable. I'm going to shift gears just a little tiny bit. We've talked about a lot of the things that new leaders, that they can do to be successful. What would you suggest that they should not do? Like what are some of the major faux pas that you think are out there?

Speaker 3: 34:04

don't get above your raisin. Avoid the power grab. There's a new sheriff in town. I'm in charge now. I've been waiting for this day. Everybody. Here we go.

Speaker 3: 34:15

Don't do that. Don't do that Because you're scared of the challenges of the relationships. Don't go too far the other direction. Don't try to change everything immediately and don't try to let everything go and not change anything. The right answer in all these things is somewhere in between. Right and exactly where in between depends on the situation. Depends a little bit on your style, but there's a lot more on. What does that team need right now? And the number one thing I would not do right away and it relates to a couple of things I just said is don't start changing stuff the day you arrive.

Speaker 3: 34:56

The very best thing you can do when you first get the role is to do what I call a listening tour. Talk to everybody your new boss, your new peer group, your leader, your team and you go in asking questions what do you think we should do? What are the challenges from your perspective? What do you think I need to know? What would you do if you were me? What do you think is going great and we shouldn't change? What else do I need to hear and you don't say anything.

Speaker 3: 35:23

And even if you agree with stuff they say, you say, man, I get it, ask follow-up questions, because what you want them to do is own that stuff is theirs. And even if you agree, this is not the time for you to be showing that you got that. This is not the day for you to look like you're smart. This is the day for you to be in total humility listening mode, so that you because now, even if those, even if three of the things that you heard from the group, or exactly the things you had in mind, you don't come back into me and say I had thought of these things and you guys confirmed them. So here we go. No, here's what I heard from you all.

Speaker 1: 35:59

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 35:59

I'm not saying to lie, but if the ideas are theirs, there is far more power than if they're yours. Well, 150,000%.

Speaker 1: 36:09

I couldn't agree with you any more about the listening tour and coming in and not changing the universe.

Speaker 1: 36:15

I do know in the military, quite often what'll happen is there's generally a large turnover of the leadership inside units every year due to promotions, postings, whatever. It doesn't really matter. And then you can always see the people that are taking the positions they're very, very obvious that are getting into these roles and promotions so that they can get to become the next leader of everything, versus the people that are getting promoted for other reasons. And I'm not judging one way or the other, I'm just saying you can always tell, because the people that come in with their pants on fire and want to like, basically burn the building down and make a new one in their image, versus the people that will take that moment and have a conversation and listen and take it in and my experience has been the people that are speaking less taking it in are the ones that are going to take the time and gain a deeper level of trust, versus the trust that has to come with the position someone's in 100% Leadership isn't about the job title.

Speaker 3: 37:14

Leadership are about the actions that you take. You're only leading if people are following. Otherwise, you're just taking a walk.

Speaker 1: 37:21

Absolutely Colin Powell. The second your people stop talking to you. You're no longer leading them, and that resonates deeply with me. If you're not having conversations with folks and they're not coming to you saying, hey, listen, this is a piece of crap, then there's something going on. There's always a quirk that gets in the way of making things interesting. It's like the way I like to put that. For sure, yeah, sure.

Speaker 1: 37:41

I also think and I'd like to know what your thoughts on this when it comes to things not to do we talked a little bit about not coming in and and just changing everything right away I think it's important to remember, to take the time to remember, to not just assume that everyone knows what you want to do. Uh, especially if you stayed in that team and you've been talking around those beers or those drinks or or whatever for years. But well, when I'm in charge, I'm gonna going to do this, I'm going to do that, I'm going to do that.

Speaker 3: 38:09

More often than not, we're highly unaware of the corporate strategies and the fact that those are pipe dreams, if you will right, and that doesn't mean that we can't have a vision and that doesn't mean that we can't set some direction, but what it does mean is that we should do that with the perspective of everyone else and not just come in and take off and go Pants on fire, as you said. So it's finding the balance, the balance of action and thought, the balance of being willing to roll up our sleeves and do work and delegating. There's a whole bunch of balances and in fact, in many ways I could argue that leadership is about balance and often what happens when we get first promoted we've been on one side of that and we swing way over for all sorts of reasons, and they're not all bad, but they create unintended consequences that we don't want.

Speaker 1: 39:02

Absolutely. I've used this analogy a little bit. I like to imagine that, as the leader, it's our role to make sure that we're actually moving the pendulum and not moving the clock, keeping the pendulum steady. It's our job to make sure things are going the way it's meant to go. We're not trying to shift the entire wall to do what we wanna do. And it's challenging, it's tough, it's supposed to be tough, but that's the part of it. That's excitement in leadership. It's supposed to be tough so that we can make things better and make our team's lives better and achieve corporate success or whatever we want to do, it doesn't matter. Leadership is about making things better and that's what I've always held to. Do you have any thoughts on that at all?

Speaker 3: 39:38

I think of leadership as being three things. Leadership is we call it the three O's. Leadership is about outcomes, others and ourselves. If you asked me to give a short definition of leadership, I would say leadership is about reaching valuable outcomes with and through others.

Speaker 3: 39:51

I love that. But the third O is ourselves, and that's what we've been talking about today. Who we are, what we bring, our approach, our attitude, our beliefs, our values, our behaviors make a difference. There's not a single right way to do it. Hero worship won't get you there by itself. You've got to be who you are, but that's not an excuse either, right? Well, I've never been very good at X. That's maybe an excuse, but it's not a reason. And so the fact is, who we are matters, but it's not about us. It's about outcomes and others matters, but it's not about us. It's about outcomes and others.

Speaker 3: 40:30

And yet we can't take ourselves out of it, because we're the one that is, in many cases, either defining or further clarifying those outputs, those directions, those goals, those objectives, that mission, et cetera. But we can't do it alone. And we have promoted because we were really good at doing the thing. Being the bookkeeper, being the welder, being the mechanic, being the forklift operator, it doesn't matter what you were good at. You were good at doing the thing, and now you have to get better at a whole lot more things than just the thing.

Speaker 1: 41:05

Yeah, and that's the big challenge with all of that is is knowing that that's just the way it is. You're going to have to get better at these things. It's humbling. I remember when I was doing my year long French course full time. So I went from being an expert in my field my aircraft maintenance trade to all of a sudden, after 22 or so years in the military, being unable to put together a five word sentence. That's a humbling experience. Now, fortunately, in the entire class we were all in the same boat, so we're all humbled together but it sucks. But after a while you get better with practice and you figure it out and I found a way that worked for me Now.

Speaker 3: 41:41

I know that we've done this interview in English.

Speaker 1: 41:43

Listen, kevin it would have been and I'd be gone, and that'd be it. Kevin, we have had a fantastic chat. We talked about a lot of different things, and I'm just curious if people want to reach out to you, if they want to hear more or maybe take advantage of the different programs that you offer, how might they do that?

Speaker 3: 41:58

Well, we've talked about the book from Bud to Boss budtobossbookcom. You can go there. You can certainly go to our website, kevinikenberry K-E-V-I-N-E-I-K-E-N-B-E-R-R-Ycom, and you can learn more about all of our. Basically, if there's a way to learn a new skill, like being a new or frontline leader, we've got it, whether it's e-learning or virtual or face-to-face and all sorts of stuff there. If you want to just be connected with me, you can also go to LinkedIn and connect with me there. I'd be happy to love to know why you reached out, and I post new content and ideas there every day on LinkedIn and hope that you would join us there as well.

Speaker 3: 42:36

So if you can spell my name, as you found out, simon, if you can spell Kevin Eikenberry, you can find us online. There's also a great YouTube channel all stuff about this Bud DeBoss transition as well.

Speaker 1: 42:47

Great. Well, thank you so much for that. Of course, I will have links to all the different ways people can connect with you inside the show notes, and this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for your time. I'm looking forward to the next chat that we're going to have and talking about working away from home and working away from the office, rather. Thanks so much.

Speaker 3: 43:04

Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1: 43:05

Well, that's a wrap from the front. Thanks for having me. If we're honest with ourselves and we respect the person and not the position, and we don't get above our reasons, that we will be able to go and make the transition from bud to boss. Thanks for tuning in and remember leadership without passion limits the depth of your vision.

Speaker 2: 43:40

Never miss an episode by following us on all of your favorite feeds. While you're there, please consider leaving an episode review and let us know what topics you would like to hear about. Be sure to join us next week with your host, Simon Cardinal, for another episode of Trench Leadership, a podcast from the front Produced by iGlenn Studios. Music provided by Ashamal of Music.