The CopDoc Podcast, Chief Shon Barnes, Ph.D., Madison, WI Police, Ep 89

We spoke with Dr. Shon Barnes, Chief of Police with the Madison, WI.

Prior to his appointment as Chief in February 2021, Chief Barnes served as the Director of Training and Professional Development in Chicago, Illinois, and he was the former Deputy Chief of Police in Salisbury (NC). He was previously a Captain with the Greensboro Police Department, where he began his career as a patrol officer in November 2000. He has vast experience in police leadership, serving as the commander of 4 Police Divisions. He has also served in the armed forces as a United States Marine.

Dr. Barnes attended Elizabeth City State University, where he received a B.A. Degree in History/Pre-Law, and the University of Cincinnati, where he received a Master’s Degree in Criminal Justice. He earned his Ph.D. in Leadership Studies from North Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University, where his dissertation focus was “Racial disparities in traffic stops, and the role of police leadership in community engagement efforts.” Dr. Barnes was selected as the 2015 National Institute of Justice L.E.A.D.S Scholar (Law Enforcement Advancement through Data and Science) for using science and evidence-based policing practices to improve policing, and community relations.

Throughout his career, Dr. Barnes has worked hard to implement Neighborhood Oriented Policing, which focuses on smaller police beat responses and foot patrols. He has implemented the Stratified Model of Policing which encompasses Problem Solving, Crime Analysis, and Accountability at all levels within the organization. These efforts have significantly improved community-police relations as evidenced by a 100% clearance rate on all homicides occurring in Salisbury during his tenure. His philosophy as it relates to policing simply states, “Policing should be neighborhood-oriented, community-focused (business and residential), problem-oriented, and based on the most current empirical research available to reduce crime and improve citizens’ satisfaction with police services.”

 We talked about leadership, professionalism, the NIJ LEADS program, mental heath calls and officer wellness.  

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com 

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Transcript

[00:00:02.490] - Intro

Welcome to the Cop Doc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The Cop Doc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing, communities, academia, and other government agency. And now please join Dr. Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on The CopDoc Podcast.

[00:00:31.990] - Shon Barnes

Well, hello, everybody. This is Steve Morreale. I'm coming to you from Boston. This is another episode of The CopDoc Podcast. We're having some technical difficulties, so I apologize in advance. This is being conducted by cell phone, but I am gratified, and one of the reasons I'm pushing through is because Shon Barnes is a busy guy. And talking to Chief Shon Barnes from the Madison, Wisconsin Police Department. Good morning.

[00:00:53.740] - Shon Barnes

Good morning, sir. How are you?

[00:00:54.930] - Steve Morreale

I'm fine, thank you. You look all prettied up in your white shirt, your many stars, and the Madison Police Patch behind you. I want to thank you for coming here. I've been looking forward to having a chat with you. As you know, one of the things that we talk about here is what's going on in policing today. What about leadership? Sometimes there is a vacuum in leadership. I know that you are a service member with the Marines. Thank you for your service. Also, you unusually have a PhD in leadership studies, which is amazing. You've been at three or four different agencies. So, I'd like you to explain to the audience what your route was from the Marines into policing and the many jobs that brought you to Madison.

[00:01:30.720] - Shon Barnes

Yeah, well, first of all, thank you for having me and giving me an opportunity to share my thoughts on policing. I got to tell you that I started out my professional career as a public-school teacher, so my graduate degree is in history and prelaw. So, I was a U.S. History teacher, world civilization teacher at a public high school in North Carolina before changing over and doing something a little bit safer and deciding to be a police officer.

[00:01:54.130] - Steve Morreale

A little safer. Go ahead.

[00:01:56.610] - Shon Barnes

I've always been someone that really valued service. Parents really taught us the value of being on this planet is what you can do for others. I have a younger brother. I'm the oldest of three. I have a younger brother who's a police officer now. He's a full resource officer down in North Carolina, and my sister is a daycare provider. And so, we've always had that in it. And so just being able to be a part of a police department where I started my career in Greensboro, North Carolina, really shaped who I am today. Learning about problem-oriented policing from Herman Goldstein. One of the things that really drew me to Madison and in Greensboro, problem-oriented policing was something that you had to do. It was totally infused into everything that we did at all levels, whether you were a working officer or whether you were a captain, everyone had to be involved in this thing that we called the Sarah Model. And so, I really learned at a very young age in policing to value evidence-based policing and to value what works best, truly to decrease crime, while at the same time increasing citizen satisfaction with police.

[00:03:03.560] - Shon Barnes

So, you started back there in North Carolina, and after a stint with the US Marine Corps, and then it looks like you started to at what point in time did you say, I want to learn more? I presume in order for you to do that, you had to have the mindset of a lifelong learner. And may I say what a crazy bunch of fools we are that take the step towards a dark trip. But it's a hard road, especially when you're working. I know you've had that experience, as I did, but what made you move in that direction?

[00:03:34.000] - Shon Barnes

So, a combination of things. One, my wife being a PhD as well, two PhDs in cancer biology and toxicology.

[00:03:46.090] - Steve Morreale

Yeah, that's kind of like ours.

[00:03:48.790] - Shon Barnes

Not quite.

[00:03:50.290] - Steve Morreale

Yes, sir. Go ahead.

[00:03:52.760] - Shon Barnes

She just really set an example for my entire family. And I love being a student. I love being in the classroom. And I worked on a master's degree at the University of Cincinnati and worked under Dr. Robin Ingle and a few others, oh, my goodness. This goes on and on. John Eck and so just being around them, they kind of made research and evidence based policing kind of cool to me and understanding, hey, the way I police, I'm on to something, right? And seeing that, the research really spoke to me. But I was at the University of Louisville in 2012 in the Southern Police Institute, and we had residency expert come in. And it was Dr. Thom Bowman, who at the time was the chief of police in Arlington, Texas. He went on to become city manager, runs a consulting group now. And he told us, he says, Listen, the future of policing is a law degree or a PhD. And he says, I prefer the PhD, because a PhD is not about having all the answers. It's about knowing the right questions to ask and then applying the scientific method in order to reach a conclusion.

[00:05:08.830] - Shon Barnes

And when he said that a light bulb just kind of went off in me. And I just started searching and doing a little praying and really asking God to show me the right program that would be a good fit for me. A lot of people go into PhD programs and don't finish because it's more about the letters at the end rather than the process. I wanted a program that would be about the process, and I found a program in leadership studies in Greensboro where I was living at the time. And the program was really a good fit. It was tailored to me. And I thought that what's really missing in policing. If you want to be a 21st century policing agency is leadership. And I know you've read the President's Task Force on 21st Century Policing, but I think a big part of that that could have been explored a little bit more is leadership and how you can have the best laid plans or schemes, to quote Burns of mice and men. But if you don't have the leadership, planning, execution, it really is not going to matter. And so, I wanted to learn how to be a better leader because I felt like that was the trajectory of my career.

[00:06:22.320] - Steve Morreale

You know, we're talking to Shon Barnes. He's the chief of police in Madison. He is Dr. Shon Barnes. Also, we're going to be talking about a couple of things. I do apologize because the audio today is not the best. We're working through cell phones because of some technical issues on my end, but I did not want to let this lie. But Shon, one of the things that I'm beginning to write a book on leadership, and one of the reasons is I'm trying to stay away from being text and making it more useful to people in the field. One of the things that I started, and I've heard, it's not I don't own it. And by the way, I like, you don't know everything. I'm constantly learning. I'll learn from you today. But one of the quotes that I start in my draft is leadership. It's on you, but it's not about you. And I'd like to get your reaction to that because I presume there is somebody in your life that saw value in you and brought you along. And so, to me, one of the things that leadership is about is identifying promising people and helping them develop and giving them opportunities to blossom. And I presume that's something that you do routinely. That's a guess on my part, but I don't think you could get where you are without bringing other people along with you. Tell me what you think about that.

[00:07:45.710] - Steve Morreale

No, I think that's a great quote, and there's a quote that I use a lot, is that good leaders have to be able to recognize talent and others. And so that just comes from my experience where people pull me aside and had me involved in various projects and I was doing research as a lieutenant and things of that nature, being able to show your talent and your skill set and then being developing people. And you're right. Leadership is certainly not about you and those leaders who may listen to this. You know, my question for you is, or what we sometimes used to call the leadership test, who are you mentoring? Who are you cultivating? Your legacy should be those people that you brought up. And when you look at your resume, when you look at your CV, is it a list of things that you have done, or is it a list of things that you have got done through the talents of others? And so, I always think about that. I was counseling a friend of mine recently who's trying to get promoted, and he was telling me about all the things that he did as a captain, and this is that.

[00:08:55.910] - Shon Barnes

That's I said, great, but who are the people who can say you help them reach their goals and their objectives? I have a saying when I meet with my command staff and they always laugh, I'm like, listen, I know I'm your agent, right? I'm your agent. It's my job to make your dreams come true, but you got to help me as well. They always laugh about that. But that's really the role of leadership. If you do some reading, ken Blanchard is one of my favorites. If you read his books on servant leadership, he talks about that. He talks about picking that traditional triangle and flipping it upside down and just stop sending decision making up and information down and just flip it and allow people to do the work. And so, I'm a really big fan of his, and that's something that really shaped my leadership philosophy.

[00:09:45.520] - Steve Morreale

I love the term you just said, I'm your agent. I'm sure you're not charging 10%, but that's a pretty neat point of view. I really enjoy that. So, you have moved around, and it's so unusual in many cases to see a police chief that has moved around and has seen different processes. And I was just writing yesterday that in many cases, your leadership approach is an amalgamation of many different people that you have come upon. And it could be coaches and teachers, and it could be bosses, both good and bad. But it seems to me that you're a customization of a bunch of little things and learning along the way. As you've moved through police departments, we didn't talk about Chicago, and now here you are in Madison. I want to ask a question. Let's say Salisbury and Madison specifically. Here you are. The big honcho in Salisbury is trying to figure out how to be achieved right here. You've already been a chief, but now you're trying to figure out how to be a chief in Madison, Wisconsin, somewhere you had never been, right? It's a capital city. It's a university city. So please tell us what happened in your first little bit when you got there.

[00:10:57.180] - Steve Morreale

Was most of it listening? Was most of it trying to figure out and engaging your command staff and the rest of the people about where they've been. I know I've walked in and said, what are you most proud of? What have you done? What kind of obstacles are there that I can help move out of the way to get you to be more productive? Tell us your approach. Shon.

[00:11:19.090] - Shon Barnes

Yeah, so when I came to Madison this is the second time I've come to Madison. I came here when I was two years old. My mother moved to Madison to live with her big brother my uncle, who was a student at UW Madison. She stayed for a little while and then, of course, went back to North Carolina when I was born and raised. So, this is my second stint, but the first time, I don't remember at two years old. But this answer may be a little shocking to you, but I made a lot of mistakes when I first came, and one of the mistakes that I made was trying to balance my time. 2021 was a difficult year for law enforcement, was unprecedented, as you know. Yes, we're calling for the fund to police in our city, 180 days of straight protest. And I saw one of the major issues as bridging the gap between the community and the police officers. And in order to do that, I needed to stop the protest. And so, I spent a tremendous amount of time meeting with protesters in the back of coffee shops, in the back of people's homes.

[00:12:32.070] - Shon Barnes

I reached out to everyone, and I took a lot of criticism for policing in general, only to be able to have a conversation and say, will you give us an opportunity? Give us an opportunity. And they did that. And when the verdict was read, there were people who were ready to protest no matter what the verdict was. And I was able, with some community members, to prevent that. But on the other end, it meant that I didn't spend as much time internally with the officers as I should have. And my predecessor was very well, like, he came from within, and he had kind of like almost a father figure approach to leadership, and that's something that I will never be able to recreate. But the officers were expecting me to spend a little bit more time getting to know them than I actually did. And so, because I saw the biggest issue as preventing additional protests, but they saw the biggest issue as wanting to get to know me, wanting to know that they're supported by me. And so, I probably spent 60% of my time with the community and then another 20% with elected officials who were trying to defund us.

[00:13:52.110] - Shon Barnes

And then I probably spent 20% of my time internally, and I should not have done that. I should have balanced my time a little bit more. And so, I've had to, since things have calmed down, kind of reinvent myself with the officers. But that's one thing that I learned from my experience as a teacher, had someone say, if you have a bad day, erase everything on the board and go home. You come home, guess what? The board is blank. You can put whatever you want on it. And so, I look at that. I look at things that I've been successful at, things that I have not been so successful at, as another opportunity to get it right. The next thing.

[00:14:30.560] - Steve Morreale

That's quite an admission. And I appreciate you being so candid, because as you work, part of it's not your fault. That was a horrible time that we went through and it's not completely behind us yet. But I think what I was hearing you say is that external relationships and external communication and building trust was so important at that juncture. And so, talk about relationships, trust and accountability inside and outside.

[00:15:02.210] - Shon Barnes

Yeah, absolutely. So, I'll talk about inside. So inside at this time in policing, police officers want to know that they are supported, but what they have problems doing is defining what that looks like. And so, when you talk to police officers and you say, well, tell me what it looks like. Well, I want you to go to battle for me. I want you to fight for me. I said, okay, well, if there's nothing to fight for, then you don't see me out there fighting. That doesn't mean that you're not supported. Right? And so, one of the things that I try to do is ride along is a constant theme of what I do. I did a ride along. I actually went out and patrolled an entire weekend. And I had the media came out and they rode with me for 1 hour. But then I had the entire weekend to myself. And some officers saw that, but some only saw the news clip. So, it's like he's just doing it for publicity. That was 1 hour of 48 hours of a weekend that I spent. They didn't see the foot patrols on Stage Street that Saturday night.

[00:16:10.480] - Shon Barnes

They didn't see the call that I took at the AC Hotel or a hotel where there was a disturbance, and they didn't see all of that. And so, it's really difficult sometimes when you're playing from behind on establishing relationship. But when it comes to the external, I look at it like this we have to be vulnerable. We have to be able to admit where we've made mistakes, but then show how we're working to improve those mistakes. And we can't pretend that we're perfect. I certainly don't do that. And people see through that. And it begins with just being a human being. I always leave with my personality. I do a lot of public speaking around town and almost every week I'm speaking to one or two groups. And I was kind of living with who I am. I talk about an experience with my father. I talk about my mother coming here. I talk about my children. I talk about who I am? Because before, I'm Chief Barnes, I am Shon, right? That's who I am. The person that was raised by two loving parents, two hardworking parents. My father was a small businessman, mechanic, tow truck driver.

[00:17:21.400] - Shon Barnes

You won't find a harder working person than a mechanic that owns their own business. And my mother was a first one of the most noble professions that there are. And so, I try to lead with that. Then I did get into, hey, what can we do to build a relationship? I really think that it's time that police leaders in America acknowledge some of the issues that people are experiencing. We have to acknowledge mass incarceration. In 1974, when I was born, there were about 600,000 people in prisons in the US. Now there are 2.3 million people. And it doesn't just affect that person. It affects at least five other people who love them in some way. And we haven't acknowledged that. And this war on drugs, these tough on crime things, and not embracing restorative justice, not embracing evidence-based policing, not embracing the fact that it's easier and cheaper, by the way, to prevent crime than it is to respond to it, has really hurt us in policing. And so having a PhD has given me the opportunity to learn more about culture, about people, about planning, and being able to bring those things to my leadership style as a Chief of police.

[00:18:41.530] - Shon Barnes

And all that is important if you're going to establish trust, you know, you establish trust by voluntarily giving information about what's really going on. You don't establish trust by not giving information. And so, we're trying to create a police department here in Madison that is transparent to our community. We're trying to create a police department that is responsive to the needs of our community. And I always go back to Bobby Kennedy. Every community gets the criminal it deserves, but they get the law enforcement that they insist on. And so, when people talk to me about why are we doing things a certain way, you should have an answer to that question. And that answer should be rooted in some type of evidence based policing strategy.

[00:19:27.690] - Steve Morreale

Terrific. Good to hear. And using data and all that stuff. And we'll get to that in a minute. But one of the things I'm hearing, and I'm quite curious because I want to stay on the leadership track for a moment, I'd like you to share, if you would. And by the way, we're talking to Shon Barnes. Dr. Shon Barnes, who is the chief of police in Madison, Wisconsin, originally from North Carolina. And I do apologize as you're listening, that the audio is not as good as we would normally have because we're operating on a cell phone because of technical difficulties they have. But Shon, back to you. Your command staff meetings, talk about how you set those up in the beginning to almost set expectations. My sense is you don't know at all. I don't know it all, and that you're only as good as your people. And if you ask questions, I like Mark Watts work, leading through questions, leading with questions. And I'm curious to know what a staff meeting is like now at Madison as opposed to when you first started and how you began to steer it with your command staff.

[00:20:36.410] - Shon Barnes

Yeah. And so, to leaders listening, you got to understand that every meeting there's three meetings right there's the meeting before the meeting where you set your agenda and people talk about where they are. They align themselves. There's the actual meeting, and then most importantly, there's a meeting after the meeting when people get together and go, what is this guy talking about? I don't know if I want to do this, you have to know that. So, what we do is if there's a hot button topic, if there's a restructuring that we have going on, or we're looking at promotions or whatever, I try to spend time with key personnel. We have a Monday meeting where it's just me and senior command staff, assistant chiefs and the director, and we talk about a few things. And then during the management team meeting, the command staff meeting before that, I will let captains know where I stand on a few issues to see where they are. The main thing is, don't surprise me if, you know, I'm supporting a particular direction. Don't surprise me with hey, Chief, I don't understand this. You have an opportunity to do that before we get in a public setting, and then we give everybody, everyone an opportunity to talk about it.

[00:21:48.930] - Shon Barnes

Number one, you have to make sure that you're following policy. That's the first thing. Number two, if there's a union contract, you need to make sure that you don't violate the union contract or that you understand that you will have to have an MoU in order to get this thing done. And then number three, giving them an opportunity to have input. And then most importantly, how will this decision affect the people who are on the streets? How will this affect your noncommissioned staff? How will this affect your officers who are on the beat? And then that is what should guide your decision-making. Oftentimes leaders make decisions that don't affect them, but certainly affect the people on the ground without considering that. And I try not to do that. I remember what that was like. When decisions come down, it's like, okay, you're going to do this, you're going to do that. Then you look and it doesn't affect them. That's an easy decision to make, but it should be a hard decision to make because you're considering them. And then the meeting, after the meeting, let's talk about that. When you get out of that meeting, you have to know for those that are listening that they're going to talk.

[00:22:58.140] - Shon Barnes

They're going to go have coffee with each other. They're going to see each other in the hallway. There's going to be a text. There will be a meeting after the meeting. What you want is to have a representative in that that can say, hey, I understand how you feel. Let's at least give a shot. Let's at least give it a try. We know the old jokes. You've heard it a thousand times. Two things. Cops don't like the way things are and change. So that tends to be the case in every police department I've ever been on. But what helps out tremendously is giving them some voice in your decision making.

[00:23:34.610] - Steve Morreale

Well, so I think when you're speaking about that, sometimes and often in our repertoire of trying to figure out how to make a decision is to understand what intended consequences might come from a change in policy. But one of the things that strikes me as a professor in teaching strategic planning or policy, and such is my guess again, Shon, you would not survive if you did not believe that policies are not etched in stone, that as new information comes up that we have to be able to be nimble and recognize oops. There is a clause missing about that, I think, about body worn cams and how that might have come. Do you have it in Madison BWC.

[00:24:20.510] - Shon Barnes

I am trying to get a body worn pilot. It's been eight years in the making. I have city council agreeing to allow me to do a pilot, but I still have a little way to go.

[00:24:31.020] - Steve Morreale

I understand, but in terms of policymaking and policy revision, is that a part of your approach? Bring forward any problems we have with a new policy so we can tweak it to make sure that it doesn't have unintended consequences that would hamper the ability of the police department and police officers to follow those policies?

[00:24:52.540] - Shon Barnes

Yeah. So, first of all, for anyone listening, every policy should have an expiration date that forces leaders to review those policies and make sure that they are currently up to date and that it's not being inequitable to anyone who may be violating that policy. That's the first thing. Additionally, I would add that policies are a guide. And just like the Bible, there's not a day that goes by that you don't violate something that's in it. And you have to know that as a leader, is this a mistake of the mind or is this a mistake of the heart? But the culture that you set is the most important thing. And so, we do a lot of special events here, a lot of got Iron Man here this week. We had CrossFit games, and we have these briefings. We set out what the policy is for everything from traffic being shut down, you name it. But what I always leave this is the last thing that I always say to them. I get the last word when they're leaving briefing. I say critical thinking is more important. I want to establish an organization that understands that, yes, we have a policy, but you are allowed, under my leadership, to bring your brain to work.

[00:26:08.430] - Shon Barnes

You are allowed to make critical decisions when you need to. And if you do that, I think you're going to be okay. Because, again, we can't write a policy for absolutely everything. But some of the major things that we do, we just revise our policy around protests. I think it's very progressive. I think it gives officers a lot of autonomy not to intervene and to use other mechanisms to prevent people who may be thinking about disrupting protests and demonstrations. And so, we're just trying to improve. That's one of our core values, continuous improvement. And I think we do that probably better than any organization I've ever been a part of.

[00:26:50.140] - Steve Morreale

So, as you have evolved as a chief and in a number of different police departments, it seems to me one of the things we brushed on a few moments ago was the importance of mentoring others and coaching others. And so, you have new people who you've decided to promote never mind hire but promote. And how important our conversations with you setting expectations, helping to frame their thoughts, how important as a leader listening becomes and coaching becomes, and adopting a more 21st century perspective in the way we interact with others. What's part of your repertoire?

[00:27:41.660] - Shon Barnes

Part of my repertoire is meeting with people and giving people an opportunity to talk. So, I have skip level meetings with every rank. I have skip level meetings with just me and captains, just me and Lieutenants, me and sergeant. I have two Bianca meetings with the detective rank, which is a rank. Here we have what's called chat with chiefs, where we have them sometimes in the day, at night, where officers can come on the Zoom call with us and just chat about things that are thinking about. We did recruitment, retention, and morale meetings in every district who just finished meetings in every district to talk about our five-year strategic plan, specifically the SWOT analysis that came about from that, things that we identified as key for us and how we're working on them right now as immediate needs before the plan are even implemented. And so, we tried to do that, and then we tried to also get information through our command staff. Now we'll admit we have some work to do with that. We're doing a commander's retreat in December to talk specifically about resilient leadership, leadership training, specifically about communication. How do we speak with one voice and make sure that every district, we have six districts hear the same message.

[00:29:07.870] - Shon Barnes

So, if I pull an officer from the street in every district and put them in my office, we sit on the couch and talk. Excuse me, what? They tell me the same message. And so that's the work we have to do on that. I don't think every police department I've ever been in has struggled with that. Every police department struggles with communication from the chief message all the way down to the line officer. For some reason, it gets filtered out somewhere. And so, we can't accept that anymore. We have to ensure that that is important, that we understand that communication feedback loop.

[00:29:47.170] - Steve Morreale

So, tell us a little bit about the Madison Police Department in terms of the size the size of the city. Are the. Things that keep you busy.

[00:29:57.190] - Shon Barnes

Yeah. So, Madison is probably one of the greatest cities in America. We have about 250,000 people, with the university about 271,000 people. We are the capital city. We have two great lakes here, Monona and Mendota. We are consistently ranked by Livability magazine as the best place in America to live. We're also ranked as the fittest city in America, hosting the CrossFit Games. And this week we have the Ironman. I will not be competing in Iron Man. We'll be cheering people on. I was afraid, Doc, when I moved here, I said, I hope we don't drop to be number two. So, I started working.

[00:30:40.090] - Steve Morreale

Understood.

[00:30:40.750] - Shon Barnes

But it's a good city, it's a very giving city, a lot of philanthropy. It's here. I feel like Madison is a place that if you move here and you had nothing, by the end of the day, you'd have somewhere to stay, you'd have food, you'd have clothing, and you wouldn't feel guilty about it. And also, it's a very educated city. More law degrees and PhDs per capita than any other city. Of course, the university has something to do with that. I have a very educated staff. I have patrol officers with law degrees, patrol officers with master’s degrees. And so, we just tend to attract and collect people in Madison who are not afraid to ask questions, who are inquisitive, who are smart and who value education, which is one of the things that really drew me here.

[00:31:31.600] - Steve Morreale

How many in your department?

[00:31:34.310] - Shon Barnes

We have about 500 commissioned officers and about another 200 non-commissioned employees. I didn't speak a lot about that, but I just want to make mention that through my leadership style, I do not ignore our non-commissioned staff. I have meetings, skip level meetings with them as well. I go and see what's important to them. I go in and cubicles, we talk. They know who I am, I'm visible to them. And I would just encourage every leader to do that and don't do it only when it's a contract negotiation time. You need to do it all the time because they keep everything running and they're processing paperwork and they're reading cases and they experience trauma through that and oftentimes no one ever stops by to check on them. I make sure that I do that at all six district substations. And then here where the majority of our staff is in records. I went by earlier when the weather changed to being warm here and was talking to processing clerk, he was saying how the windows? He appreciates them, but it gets extremely hot, and they don't have the ability to control the air conditioner.

[00:32:54.940] - Shon Barnes

It seems like something small that's important to him. He has to sit there; he can't go anywhere else with the sun beaming down on his neck. And so, we work to get better control of the AC, which took almost an act of Congress. But in the meantime, I went, and I bought him a fan $15. I was like, here, you know, here's something for you. And he really, really appreciated that. A small gesture, but, you know, for leaders and police organizations, do not forget the non-sworn noncommissioned staff. And you need to make sure that they have a voice as well. And decision making. When you put together committees to look at community policing committees, to look at crime reduction, you need to include them as well, because oftentimes your strategies could mean increased work for them and they should have a voice in that, if that's truly the case.

[00:33:45.260] - Steve Morreale

Well, I mean, one of the things you're showing is care and empathy, and that's a pretty important element of leadership. So, I appreciate you saying we're talking Shon Barnes, and he is sitting in Madison, Wisconsin, today, the chief of Police. He is Dr. Shon Barnes also. So, I appreciate what you've been saying. So many things have been going on in policing, and there are so many moving parts, and I understand that. And how you as a chief and your colleagues keep up with it is mind boggling sometimes to me. But mental health is a major issue. Many of the calls are now mental health related. I'd be curious to know how Madison is handling that. Do you have some correspondence? Do you have a group of people who can help from the outside? In other words, clinician? And as important, the wellbeing of police. You talked about trauma and those kinds of things. Tell us what's going on out there.

[00:34:28.560] - Shon Barnes

Sure. The newest thing that we have in our city is that we have a group called CARES, which is obviously based on the Cahoots model from Oregon and whatnot. But even before that, almost eight years ago, our department established mental health officer. And so, the Bureau of Justice Assistance has designated our police department here in Madison as a learning center for other police departments that want to do correspondent models of mental health. And so, we have a mental health officer in every district, and we have three clinicians who work with us as well. And when those calls come out, those mental health officers will take some of those calls. But more importantly, they do a lot of follow up, kind of like a detective would trying to investigate taste to make sure that the person we dealt with has the services he or she needs in order to improve their mental wellness. And so last week, we had a police department here, a major metropolitan police department, come to visit to learn how to adapt our model of mental health officers. Now, it's important to note that as we deal with that, we also have to deal with the mental health of our staff.

[00:35:29.520] - Shon Barnes

And so last year, we established our mental wellness days or checkup days. And so, every staff member commission and non-commissioned will get a day to spend an hour with a clinician, unless you have your own, and then they get the day off. And so, we call it our mental wellness days, our mental wellness checkup. And it's just an investment that our city is making into our police. As you know, the 21st Century Report on Policing speaks specifically in pillar six about officer Safety wellness. And under the Obama administration, I had an opportunity to work on that particular pillar and go to DC and share my thoughts on officer faith in wellness. And really, it begins with understanding how the job affects us and understanding that it's not normal or natural to see and hear and smell and touch some of the things that we do on the job. And if we're healthy, we can better serve our community. And I think we have one of the best things going when it comes to the way we treat our officers and understanding that this job does take a toll on you, and we want you to be helpful.

[00:36:27.960] - Steve Morreale

I'm glad to hear that. Shon Barnes in Wisconsin. Madison, Wisconsin I want to talk about a couple of things before we wind down. And at the end, I'd like to talk about your experience with the Leads program for NIJ. But racial and cultural issues. I don't want to broad brush that. I want to dig into that. How are you addressing that in a major city, in a capital city?

[00:36:48.060] - Shon Barnes

Well, I think the first thing to realize is that racial disparities are real. My dissertation was in racial disparities, which is a measurement, right? It doesn't show how people were treated, but it begins with understanding how to measure and acknowledge that Wisconsin is probably one of the worst states in America for racial disparity, and that includes Madison. But we have to begin in policing to acknowledge that what people are feeling is real and understanding that police have not always stood on the side of justice as we define it today and understanding that. And part of my understanding was in 2020, I took an opportunity with two other police leaders, Obed Magney, who was in Sacramento at the time, I think, you know, yes. And Tartma, for all these scholars. We went to Selma, Alabama. We spent the day at Brown AME Church and we learned about Sunday. And then we walked 54 miles from Selma to Montgomery. And that experience really was life changing. Helped me to understand what people were going through. The number of people who stopped to check on us white, black, Spanish truckers, police officers, it really showed me that America is not a divided country.

[00:37:54.720] - Shon Barnes

I want to say that again. America is not a divided country. When you see someone walking down the road and you don't know what's going on, and you stop to check on their well-being, that's who America really is. We are a deal. A caring and understanding country. And despite what the news media may want to show us. I have walked the walk two and a half days and there was no rhyme or reason to the people who stopped to give us water or make sandwiches in the middle of a pandemic. And so, I've seen the real Americans. So, I try to bring that experience to my leadership style, and I try to ignore all the voices out there that say divide, divide, divide. And I try to look at how we can bring people together. I have tough conversations with employees. I have tough conversations with the community, and I'm respected for that. When people say, man, I can't believe the cops did that, I say, well, what happened? If you dig deep, you'll see that there's probably a middle ground there, right, as to why that interaction happened. And I'm not afraid to do that.

[00:38:50.590] - Shon Barnes

I grew up in a community that had some issues. I grew up community housing, housing project, whatever you want to call it. And I saw my parents struggle while my father was establishing his business, while my mother was finishing school, and we struggled. And the things that I saw in my community, no one chipset. I saw my first homicide at twelve years of age. And so, I have an experience to share with people and that helps me to bridge the gap. We have a lot of work to do with the community and both, I think, with the police. And it begins with not only having a conversation. When you leave that conversation, what is it that you're going to do? I have to say, when I leave community meetings that everyone will leave with homework. What I mean by that is we're not just going to come and you're going to say, do something about traffic, do something about kids. We're going to say, what are we going to do together? And I think that's how we begin to start bridging some of the gap.

[00:39:38.650] - Steve Morreale

That's a great mantra to follow. One of the things that strikes me, and I have interactions with so many police chiefs, sometimes they're way too silent when something happens, they keep quiet, they hide. They don't want to be canceled, if you will, to use a more up to date term. But when Floyd was killed, when George Floyd was killed at the hands of a police officer, there are so many things that police could have done for their community to say, look, we don't agree with that. I'm not putting words in anybody. We don't agree with this. This is what we do differently. I can't guarantee it won't happen here, but here are the steps that we take to try to avoid that from happening in Madison or in Salisbury or wherever it is. Why is there a reluctance in your mind for some especially smaller chiefs to stand on the sidelines rather than getting out there in front of it?

[00:40:25.240] - Shon Barnes

Because police chiefs are afraid that maybe it was justified. And to be honest with you, it doesn't take much to justify legally some of the things that we've seen in the community. I got to tell you that when George Floyd happened, I will tell you, I initially didn't see the video. It just happened during one of those times where I'm working on budget because we had a physical budget at the time. I think it happened in March. You have to get stuff. I was just busy, and I wasn't watching the news. And I had a Sergeant SWAT team guy, some people may refer, he's like my Tackleberry, right? And I'm dating myself. He comes in and this is a guy who is all about kicking indoors and putting handcuffs on me. And he's like, hey, Major, did you see this? And I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. He was shocked. When he was shocked, I was like, I better pay attention to this. And it shocked my conscience. I think it shot the conscious of a lot of people when it happened. And I knew that I had to say something. So, I went to my chief and we started talking about how do we message this?

[00:41:26.910] - Shon Barnes

And so, we settled on social media, something in written form, because it's something about reading rather than hearing, I think.

[00:41:34.330] – Steve Morreale

Has a long-lasting effect sometimes, Shon. Right?

[00:41:36.640] - Shon Barnes

Yeah, I think so. I think so. And that's what we settled on. And then when the protest happened in Salisbury, we not only assisted with traffic without having to be told to do so, and we allowed people to talk, and they asked us to meal with them. That's not going to hurt anyone. We did that, but we also gave our officers an opportunity. And so, after each protest, the day after each protest, I should say, we were able to get some really nice gifts of food. And so, we brought in the officers before we started the next day. And everyone got an opportunity to decompress and to talk. And I'm going to tell you, I saw officers crying because they were upset at people not understanding how important this was. The officers knew we were in a different time period. It felt different than just your usual every day, hey, someone got shot at it. It felt different. And so, we gave everyone an opportunity to decompress. But the George Floyd thing, it forever changed policing. And I think, unfortunately, in order to do that, someone had to lose their life.

[00:42:38.740] - Steve Morreale

Thank you for that. So, as we wind down, there is a question that I want to ask about your experience with the Leads program. And it is a program that you can better describe than I that started several years ago when you were in essence one of the fellows, a practitioner, researcher. Talk about that and that experience that you had and how it influenced you.

[00:42:57.700] - Shon Barnes

Sure. The National Institute of Justice established a program. They are the research arm of the Department of Justice, and the program is called Leads Law Enforcement Advancing through Data and Science. And they take Midlevel employees who have a passion for using research to solve problems in order to reduce crime and or improve community satisfaction with police services. And I was a part of the 2016 class, I think. I don't know. I don't remember. But honestly, it changed my life because it's like, you're sitting in a room with people who are all likeminded and we all have the same experiences. I want to share some of those experiences. One, we believe that policing can be changed for the better. Two, we believe that policing can be changed for the better by using evident research and data and by understanding the scientific method. And then number three, we were all people through our police department, at one point, considered an outcast. We were those people who would volunteer for special projects, ask questions about products before we implemented them, and we were the people who got on everybody's nerves and commanding. And so, we basically developed a community amongst ourselves to share ideas and thought.

[00:44:09.720] - Shon Barnes

And some of the best trainings in my professional career being able to sit in a room with Cynthia Alum, being able to sit in the room with Lori Robinson. I absolutely love Lori Robinson. She is, like, an amazing person. She co-chairs the 21st Century Task Force on Policing. And when I see her, I kind of feel like it's like a second mom to me because she's so intelligent, and it just gives us an opportunity to advance in our career. Maureen McGough, who was a senior policy adviser Maureen is just just amazing. And before it slips out of my mind, the 30 by 30 initiative, I want to talk about that. And so, the 30 by 30 initiative is a national initiative that's gotten a lot of support. Now they're at a conference now in DC. But the initiative state that we want to have 30% of policing as women by the year 20, 30%. And so, across the country, it's about 12% of people in the country who are police or female. In Madison, 28% of our police are women. And our campaign is called We Are the 28. And we're working to support them.

[00:45:11.380] - Shon Barnes

We're working to make sure that they feel supported and that they understand that they have a great role to play. And we're very proud of that. I will tell you that we will be the first department to reach 30.

[00:45:21.690] - Steve Morreale

Well, because you're so close, right? You're almost at the finish line.

[00:45:24.630] - Speaker 3

It doesn't matter. You're going to be number one. You're right, we're close. But I think we're close to the finish line. And when we get there, we want to be able to sustain it, not just get there and say, hey, we're at 30%. And then five years later, we're back to 4%. No, we want to sustain that, and we want to be able to see that diversity in our leadership rank, in our detective rank, and in the rank of officers who are significantly contributing to what we're doing. So that's one of the things that's come out of leads as well as lifelong friendships with people and just staying current on research so I can better help my police department.

[00:45:58.740] - Steve Morreale

So, talking to Shon Barnes again. He's in Madison, Wisconsin, as the chief of Dr. Barnes. And it's interesting. We could talk for an awful lot longer, but you're busy and I'm busy, and so we've got to cut this off in a few moments. But one of the things that strikes me is that first of all, you have a passion for learning, a passion for passing that on. What troubles me as a pracademic, which you would be in that realm, is that we call ourselves a profession, and yet in many places, all you need is a high school or GED. And so how do we move forward to professionalize and increase the entry level without stepping on people who have been disenfranchised? What's your thought about that, Shon?

[00:46:38.730] - Shon Barnes

You know, my thought is I don't know that the two are mutually exclusive. I was in the Marine Corps, and I was in with people who had high school diplomas, who were amazing leaders and would have made amazing police officers. I think we can create a way to translate your life experience and your continuing education outside of a degree into policing. And I think there are other things that make a particular occupation or professional. Number one, what is the governing body that says you're doing things the right way? If I'm a dentist. Maybe it's the American Dental Association. If I'm a doctor, maybe it's the American Medical Association. What is the equivalent of that for police? There isn't one. And so, there's no real organization or institution that says you apply the right treatment at the right dosage to solve this problem. That's where it has to be. We don't establish that and establish that quickly, either through federal government or through Perth or through ICP or some other group that we all respect. We can't really call ourselves a professional if we don't commit ourselves to continuing education and not just in training. Can you pull a gun?

[00:47:42.180] - Shon Barnes

Do you know how to use mase? No. Are you looking at the most current research every year about how to do your job? That's what makes you a professional. And then most importantly, where is the accountability when police officers can pull their wetsuit and unarmed resign from their job in lieu of termination and go to another department and start working? We can't call ourselves a profession because I can't leave a hospital at their malpractice lawsuit, at the malpractice lawsuit and go to another hospital in Boston and expect to pick up a scout the profession won't allow. So, we still have some work to do if we truly want to call ourselves a profession, I believe we are. But we can't call ourselves that until we put into place the things that are necessary to be a profession.

[00:48:25.210] - Steve Morreale

So, I wrote three things down. There are things that's kind of skirt around that you have post in some states. Police officers stand in training. We have accreditation both at the state and Kalia in terms of accountability. But what also strikes me is that there is no although they're talking about it, there is no group of people that comes in and does an inspection of the department. How are we doing? What's going on? What are the numbers, those kinds of things. And we have no National Police University that could create some national standards. We want local control, right? So, each state does it differently. Each state trains differently. So, we could go on with that for a long, long time. But let me give you the last word again. We're talking with Shon Barnes as we wind down. He is the Chief of Police in Madison, Wisconsin. He is Dr. Shon Barnes with a specialty in leadership studies. What do you say to people who are on the sidelines about getting into policing, given what's going on and what the temperament of many people is about policing? Should they come in, or shouldn't they?

[00:49:23.950] - Shon Barnes

They should definitely apply. It has to start. They have to fill out an application. What I tell people is, if you think you might want to do this job, fill out the application and forget about it when they call you. Now, you can make a decision about if you want to move forward, but if you don't, put in the application. And then six months from now, you realize, hey, I think I can do this. You've wasted six months of application time. I tell people that you have to change from within. I can't stand outside your home and say, doc, you need to make your bed. You need to make your bed. You're going to say, who is this person telling me how to operate in my home? But if I'm a part of it, then maybe I have some say in you making your bet. That's just an analogy to say, change comes from within. And if you think things could be better and you want to contribute to that, then join them to the police department, see what we do. Do a ride along, talk to an officer. And what you will find out is that 90% of this job is still relationship and communication.

[00:50:23.800] - Shon Barnes

And I think it will always be that. It's one of the most rewarding jobs you will ever have. It's one of the toughest jobs that you will ever have. It will challenge you every day. There's no monotony here. Every day, every call will be something different. And I think that there are a lot of talented people out there, women, minorities, people of color who should be a police officer. They have to learn to take that first step to get over your own fear of what your friends are going to say, what your family is going to say when you're making good money, that good health insurance and working for a job and you see the respect that you get when you do it right. There's nothing more rewarding than that. And so, we are having a big push for recruiting now. We have a program called the Moore program. Multicultural officers’ recruitment effort. And so, if you're interested, go to our website, fill out an application. I am trying to have the first minority majority police first time. I want to have more minorities in our police academy, a multicultural candidate than majority. I think we can do that, but people have to give us a chance.

[00:51:25.410] - Shon Barnes

You can always leave if you don't want, don't have a contract. But I think if you take that first step, you're going to find that this is a rewarding profession, still a good profession. There are still people here who want to do things the right way. They should come and be a part.

[00:51:38.380] - Shon Barnes

Of that great salesman, Shon Barnes, the chief of police in Madison, Wisconsin. I don't know who are going to show up in Madison for you, but listen, you have been a pleasure to talk with. And I would say that one of the things we try very hard to do is to grab hold of some thought leaders. And I would say you're right there at the top. So, thank you so much for being here.

[00:51:57.730] - Shon Barnes

Thank you, sir, and thank you for having me on. It was a pleasure to meet you and listen to your podcast. And for all my law enforcement leaders and friends, please listen to the Cop podcast. And for me, being a good leader is about surrounding yourself with good thoughts, good thought leaders. And thank you again, Doctor, and I can't wait to hear.

[00:52:17.520] - Steve Morreale

Thanks very much. So that's another episode in the can. This is Steve Morreale from Boston. Shon Barnes has been talking to us in Madison, Wisconsin. We'll be back for another episode. Thanks for listening.

[00:52:29.660] - Outro

Thanks for listening to The CopDoc podcast with Dr. Steve Morreale. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager turned academic and scholar from Worcester State University. Please tune into The Cop Doc Podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.