Mike Kroll, HSI - Exploring Compassionate Leadership in Law Enforcement

The CopDoc Podcast - Season 7 - Episode 141 

 Ever wondered how a business student becomes a leader in federal law enforcement? Join us as we uncover the career journey of Mike Krol, the special agent in charge of Homeland Security Investigations (HSI) in Boston. From a family rich in law enforcement and military service history to navigating the rigorous transition from the private sector to federal law enforcement, Mike shares his compelling story. Listen to how his mother’s suggestion to pursue criminal justice at Northeastern University changed his life path, despite initial doubts, and discover the personal challenges he overcame, including imposter syndrome during his training at Quantico.

In a world where agencies merge and leadership styles evolve, witness the transformation through the eyes of Mike Kroll, from HSI's New England Field Office. Gain insights into the complexities of aligning diverse missions under the HSI umbrella and the significant growth the agency has seen since its rebranding in 2010. The conversation goes beyond managing a team, delving into how these leaders navigate inter-agency conflicts and maintain productivity, all while championing innovation and effective management. Their stories are a testament to the balance needed between management and leadership.

Explore the expansive investigative mandate of HSI and how it stands as the second largest federal investigative agency after the FBI. With jurisdiction over 400 federal criminal statutes, HSI tackles a variety of issues, from global trade to cybercrime. Discover how the agency adapts to emerging threats and the importance of national coordination and public-private partnerships. Mike Crow and Mike Kroll share their leadership philosophies, emphasizing the importance of compassion, empowerment, and accountability in high-pressure environments. This episode is a deep dive into the personal and professional decisions that shape a successful career in federal law enforcement. 

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com 

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Transcript

Intro/Outro Announcement

00:03

Welcome to The CopDoc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The CopDoc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia and other government agencies government agencies. And now please join Dr Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on The CopDoc Podcast. 

Steve Morreale Host

00:32

Hey everybody, Steve Morreale here, coming to you from Boston, just outside of Boston actually. My studio is out in MetroWest and I am headed to the federal building in Boston talking to the special agent in charge, Mike Krol, from HSI, Homeland Security Investigations, an integral part of the Department of Homeland Security. Hello there, Michael. How are you? Hi Stephen, Good to be here. Thanks for coming. I want to get started. This is such an unusual interview because I don't talk to a lot of feds Every now and then I do, or I think it's important, and I understand and I know that you understand, having been in the business that you can't operate independently anymore. You have to work with state, local and other federal agencies in order to make things work. So you are in charge of Homeland Security Investigations, but what I want you to explain is how did you get into it? You're a Northeastern guy. How did you get into it in the first place? I know you were a colleague from DEA, so let's talk about that. 

Mike Krol Guest

01:25

Sure, well, let me just say thanks for having me on. Really appreciate it on this international podcast day. Ironically enough, so started as a young lad Grandfather was a Boston cop, both my parents were corporate executives and my uncle was a Navy SEAL, retired from the Navy SEALs to become an FBI special agent. Something in me always was very intrigued by his job and, my grandfather being a Boston cop, it was kind of innate inside of me that I was just curious about what they did and how they worked. I actually went to college, I applied to colleges, got into Northeastern and BU, both for business, and I think my mother she had the sixth sense, if you will, and she said why don't you maybe try to apply for criminal justice and try to do what Papa did? 

02:10

And I did and honestly I think that changed my life forever. 

Mike Krol Guest

02:13

So I went to Northeastern, had the opportunity to meet some phenomenal people, some phenomenal professors and instructors who kind of guided me along the way, got out of Northeastern and went into the private sector Didn't know at that time that I really wanted to be a federal agent. But I knew I didn't want to be uniformed police. It just for some reason didn't appeal to me. So I started to do what every new kind of prospect does and that's apply to different federal agencies, started with the former US Customs Service, DEA, FBI, Air Force Office of Special Investigations and the like, and that was about a three-year process. I actually applied to DEA. My uncle always said you know, every federal agency is great, don't go to the DEA, it's too dangerous. Ironically, coming from a Navy SEAL, an FBI agent. 

03:01

So of course, what did I do? I went to DEA. I got called from Jane Giandana, who was a crew at the time I was in private business, working for an emerging growth technology company and she said you got to be at JFK building tomorrow at eight o'clock, whatever it was, to do your final PT test before you go into the academy. I was married about four months at that time. That was kind of a coming to reality day for my wife and I. Knowing that this could potentially change our lives forever, I knew I wasn't going to be a special agent at Boston. That was like a pipe dream. So DEA called, I took the offer and I went off to Quantico. So I think one of the best moves I ever made. I'll say probably a million times today DEA has an amazing and important mission and some of the best investigators on this earth and truly some of my best friends to this day still are DEA special agents. 

Steve Morreale Host

03:49

So you get on and I know that call and it's all of a sudden you wait, you wait, you wait and all of a sudden we need you here tomorrow, like what. You've been waiting for three years and I never even thought it would happen. Now what happens is right in front of you you've got to make that choice and that chance. 

Mike Krol Guest

04:10

Going home I know that's a great conversation to say, hey, honey, I may be leaving next week or what. It's crazy, isn't it? And we just bought a house. We literally bought the house three months before, so our lives were just starting. Luckily, we didn't have children at the time, so that wasn't part of the equation. 

04:18

But you know, talk to my wife, as always completely my corner and supportive my parents, the same brother and sister. So, yeah, I took a leap of faith and showed up at Quantico, Virginia, in November of 2004 with what I felt was a caliber of trainee that I wasn't. I didn't have the same background and experience that so many had, so I really felt that I was kind of a fish out of water, coming from the private sector, no military background, but I took to it from day one and I loved it from then on. 

Steve Morreale Host

04:48

You know, that's interesting. One of the things that I write and I'm writing a book called Choosing to Lead and one of the pieces I put in there is the imposter syndrome. You know, we sit there, we do these jobs Even when you became the special agent in charge, wherever it was. Like me I'm in charge, right. It's one of those things and you sort of grow into the job. I mean, obviously somebody sees or saw something about you that was a value that you may not have seen yourself, but again, you can't. It's the stick-to-itiveness. It's not an easy thing. 

05:12

I remember, I can tell you that I remember my time at DEA and I had already been through an MP school, an MP academy. I had been through a police academy and here I am at DEA. I'm in week nine and I'm calling home and saying I don't think I can handle this. You know the stress of trying to get an 80 every, every single week, or you're going to, we're going to get you drummed out. And here you already went to college. I see you shaking your head. Same feelings. 

Mike Krol Guest

05:34

I mean, it's true, I, I um, for some reason I took to the structure very well and I and discipline has always been the special sauce for me and it keeps me going every day and it lets me, you know, stay prepared, I do it, you know, every day, you know, wake up, you know kind of the same. Everyone says I put my shoes on the same way every day, and that's really true. But the structure and the discipline of the academy was really something I took to and I made some amazing friends who I really leaned on and what you realize in the academy is that everything is a test. 

06:06

It's a test of your integrity. It's a test of your physical and mental strength, but it's also a test to see if you can work collaboratively with other people under stress. And I think it took us all a few months to really realize what that was all about. And once we did, it became a very boring academy because we were locked on. We knew what we were doing. We were shooting, moving, doing everything we need to do as a group, and it just prepared us what I thought. DEA and Quantico did a phenomenal job of preparing a new special agent with no background experience. Never shot a gun day in my life before. Really, yeah, to come out of the academy getting to shoot for the possible club shooting in the top 2% of our class. 

06:47

It's a testament to the training at Quantico. To be able to say when you get out of the academy, of course, you're not ready to go? You think you are, but to the best of my ability and to my confidence. I felt really, really prepared, as much as I could, to start as a special agent in the field. 

Steve Morreale Host

07:01

So I want to get to the work you're doing at HSI. But there's one more little area because obviously you were I know we talked before you were stationed in New York city. It's crazy busy, traffic aggravation galore and, I think, in frustration. I think, if you can master what goes on in New York to make a case, coming from the office, going out to one of the boroughs, wherever you have to go, or traveling all over the world following that case, it's an amazing bit of trust that they give DEA agents, as you know, and certainly HSI agents. But you did an awful lot. You spent some time out in New Jersey, I know. So, just really quick, what were the jobs that you were doing that ended up and I'm curious to know why you would have left. So let's get to your time at DEA and then consideration for, I presume, a lateral transfer and quickly moving up the ladder. 

Mike Krol Guest

07:51

So I started. I went to D43, which is a division group, which is an all special agent group. We did have one NYPD task force officer and an Amtrak police assigned to our group. We were predominantly a Colombian heroin group. The group I went into was senior by four or five, six years to me. We had gone a few years in DEA and the federal government without a large hiring push. So coming in at 25, 26 years old, I was the youngest by far. So of course you need to have thick skin and my father always said if they don't make fun of you, they don't like you. And I learned that very quickly. That is true in policing, yeah. So I went into a group of phenomenal agents and I do remember an agent, Chad, I won't say his last name who was a wiretap phenom, him and another guy. 

08:36

Joe Lee, Tommy there was a bunch that I really, really respected. But they taught me wiretaps and that was really DEA's bread and butter, and so I did that for a couple of years, ended up writing my first wiretap. Get transferred to a mobile enforcement team. My partner at the time, toby, was a former D1 college football player and took me under his wing. I'd never been a local cop. 

08:59

Street safety was something that he was extremely adept at tactics, so he took me under the wing and he asked if I wanted to go to the mobile enforcement team, which is a traveling enforcement team, and I said absolutely not, and of course you know the transfer memo comes out a week later, but I said no, you're going anyway, kid, right, we move. We live in Hoboken, we moved to Northwest Jersey. 

I'm traveling Monday to Friday. Life is good and about a year and change. 

Mike Krol Guest

09:24

Later they transferred me back into the division office so I'd moved out. I was working out of White Plains. I thought I had retired on duty, you know pretty much. It was a great gig and I moved back into the city to a predominantly money laundering group, but we also did Jamaican organized crime. 

09:39

So myself and my partner at the time used that experience in wiretaps and we started working a consolidated priority organization, target CPOT, called Christopher Michael Cope and his stage name was Dudus and he was one of the most prolific Jamaican organized crime figures in Jamaica and obviously huge Jamaican population in New York. We ended up working that case for a couple of years, indicted and arrested and brought him back to face justice, which was phenomenal. And kind of in between that I was the case agent on a lot of the South Florida money laundering strike force investigations in New York. So really I think foreign corruption, money laundering, narcotics, transnational crime was always my foray and I felt that was very good at it. So that was about six years into my career and I started looking at promoting and possibly going overseas. 

10:26

That's when kind of the change in life happened. My father got really sick with cancer and we had to make a decision, my wife and I, whether we were going to stay four hours away from family or I was going to try to get back home to Boston to be with my family and help my mother and brother and sister. It just so happened that the special agent in charge and deputy special agent in charge here of HSI. They had a program going on which is an internal lateral transfer. If you were a GS-13 with a federal agency and you had specific skills and abilities, they could bring you over on a lateral transfer and you'd have to go through an abbreviated academy down at FLETC, which is our Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. It's our training facility. And that call came and I called my wife and I said what do you think? Just got the offer to go back to Boston. She said well, if you don't take it, I'll see you back home in Boston. So you know we took it. 

11:17

It was what I thought at the time and I didn't see it at the time. I thought it was the worst decision I was making professionally. Looking back on it now, it was the best personal decision, but also the best professional decision I ever made. 

Steve Morreale Host

11:30

So let me interrupt you. We're talking to Mike Krol he's the special agent in charge at Homeland Security Investigations and we've been talking. We've actually been going down memory lane to his time with DEA and certainly that became your foundation. And now you're moving into HSI and let's just talk about the history of HSI. It's a relatively new organization that is growing, that is morphing. So let's talk back, because right about the same time you joined DEA it was the development of HSI. Right, and it has changed and it caused mergers and issues along the way. Who's going to be in charge? Customs, I mean, I lived it, I saw it. But tell me from your perspective how that happened and when you were walking in, what were the things that were being done to try to sort of get a handle on this new organization and push the mission forward pointed in the right direction. 

Mike Krol Guest

12:18

I had just limited interaction, which was ICE at the time in New York City. It's funny that a few of those agents now work for me here in Boston. So it's funny how tangled the web we weave. 

12:29

Listen I think being in New York City experiencing 9-11 from the outside, but also seeing DHS established. Hsi has borne itself from the legacy US Custom Service and all of their authorities, which are broad and expansive, and then the legacy Immigration and Nationality Service, INS, unique authorities in and of themselves. I come back to Boston. I don't know anything about really the history of the agency, so what I do see at that time is really a bifurcated structure of your INS special agents, kind of trying to stick together and continue their immigration. 

Steve Morreale Host

13:05

That's their tribe and you've got another tribe and we're trying to merge them together. But it has its issues, right. 

Mike Krol Guest

13:10

And then I go into the Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Strike Force here in Boston, which was my first assignment out of DEA, so it was basically going into a drug group with all DEA agents. But, our ghost coming back for me. Exactly. 

Steve Morreale Host

13:23

Look at this guy, you know he's got a different badge. 

Mike Krol Guest

13:26

Now I did see the same passion for the job, just different experience and different understanding. The INS agents that I knew were more focused on single scope, whereas the former customs agents that I was working with aligned a little bit more with what I basically envisioned, which was long-term, complex conspiracy investigations, international multinational yes. 

13:51

So of course, we need to find that medium there, learn how to work together and I think over the ensuing couple of years, when HSI got our name, we were always called ICE Immigration and Customs Enforcement and I think the name never really properly defined our mission. So in 2010, Jim Jenkins was the head of HSI, worked with the front office at DHS to get HSI its name, so Homeland Security Investigations is born in 2010. And I think that's really a rebirth of really the former US Customs Service, but also where people can align themselves under one unique umbrella rather than saying I'm Legacy Customs, I'm legacy INS. 

We're getting to a point now where you're not really legacy anymore. 

Mike Krol Guest

14:29

Now we're having, like true born HSI special agents out of the academy. So that structure is really changing. 

Steve Morreale Host

14:36

So can I ask a question Again? We're talking to Mike Krol, special agent in charge of the New England. Do you call the New England division? What is it? 

Mike Krol Guest

14:44

Yeah, New England Field. 

Steve Morreale Host

14:45

Office, field Office. Okay, so you're handling all of New England, which is a little different than it's the same as DEA, but a little different than the FBI, because the FBI doesn't handle Vermont because New York, that's correct. It's very strange in that regard. But you're beginning to climb the ladder. You're involved in this new agency, you them with DEA and an OSDEF task force, right, and ultimately you move up the ladder. I understand when you are working cases, you're not thinking about bigger picture. You're thinking about gett the guy, get the person, get the group, break them down, all of those kinds of things. How are we going to do it? How are we going to travel? 

15:16

But ultimately, when you become a boss, you start to look a little bit bigger, a little broader, and your responsibility certainly grows. You need to make your agents productive. You need to make sure they're doing it properly. You're putting out fires where some people say naughty things to other agencies and you got to unruffle ruffled feathers. I see you smiling. It happens all of the time. I know what were you thinking when you said that. So I really want to think about leadership. This really is about leadership, innovation and what you bring to the table and how you develop others and how you help people see their roles. When you move up, when you're a boss, you're no longer responsible for yourself. You're responsible for 10 or 12 agents. When you move up the line, you're responsible to be the boss of bosses. And when you are in your job, you're responsible to work with. How many different offices or field divisions are them with HSI? 

Mike Krol Guest

16:09

So we have 30 special agent in charge offices throughout the United States, 235 domestic field offices and 93 offices international. So we have about 10,000 personnel spread throughout the United States and the world Abroad. 

Steve Morreale Host

16:21

Okay, so you understand what I'm saying. Along the way you're getting training, You're beginning to understand more of the mission. They are tasking you with making things happen. Now, as the special agent in charge, we're jumping through years, but tell me how you have evolved. Tell me how you have taken on this mission about minding the store. I want to say this just to plant the seed. 

16:42

The title of my book I have changed from ingredients to leading to choosing to lead, Because it seems to me, when you promote somebody, the first thing that you expect them to do is manage that group. Make sure there's no trouble, Make sure people are doing their job. You know the whole thing. When they're task force people I used to deal with this Like Mike says he's over at DEA and when he's at DEA. And when he's at DEA he says he's over at HSI, but he's in neither place. I see smiles because people will take advantage of us that way. You understand. But it's about getting work done. Manage first and then choose to lead, choose to take the group forward. I see you shaking your head. Tell me how that resonates with you, Mike. 

Mike Krol Guest

17:18

It's really been kind of iterative you know starting from a first line supervisor doing my first headquarters tour being a type A personality, being a special agent. You think you are the best agent that's out there. You think you're doing the best and most innovative cases that the world has to offer, until you go to headquarters and you start managing the organizational programs and then you realize that there are other agents out there doing what you thought you were doing is the most cutting edge, complex investigations the world has to offer. It humbles you, doesn't it? 

17:50

Humbles you very quickly, and the first time you're briefing executive level God forbid you're unprepared. At the headquarters kind of forum, if you will, that's also failure as a great teacher as I go through headquarters into kind of first and second line supervision. 

18:06

You realize that people look to you for everything. You need to be that kind of mentor, you need to be their peer, and then you also need to be that person that can tell them and straighten them out when they need to be straightened out. I really love being a first line supervisor because it's still let me be involved in the everyday operations and enforcement operations that we did the investigations to impart some of my experience onto our agents and analysts and support staff. 

18:32

You know that changes as you become an assistant special agent in charge. You need to pull back from your everyday being out on surveillance with the groups, helping them get up on wiretaps or whatever it may be you're trying to achieve as an assistant special agent in charge. You then become more of the cheerleader and the liaison to get resources to your agents, to your bosses, to those that really need your help. So that was certainly a learning experience for me Leadership in law enforcement. 

19:00

I think, as you see to this day, Steve is really a difficult thing. In law enforcement, I think, as you see to this day, Steve is really a difficult thing. There's no perfect recipe for success, especially when our agents don't get large-scale bonuses, we don't get stock incentives, we don't get anything that your private sector companies would get. So what you get is trust those agents and analysts and mission support specialists, seeing you as somebody they can go to and that they can trust, not only with their life but also with their personal issues, their family issues and their professional issues. So I've loved being a mentor to people, but I never asked. I know it sounds kind of cliche, but I've never asked anyone to do something that I either haven't done myself or won't do for myself. 

Maybe I'm a little bit different. I'm not a heavy-handed leader. 

Mike Krol Guest

19:43

I don't think that works. Especially agents and analysts and staff to try to do their best and be their best. I can never sleep with myself. God forbid if something happened here in the office due to a lack of training, if somebody got hurt. I think that's the one thing that I always preach to our folks is pay attention, be smart and be safe. Go home every night to your wife, your kids, your partner, whoever it may be. 

Steve Morreale Host

20:09

So we're talking Mike Krol. He's Special Agent in Charge of HSI Homeland Security Investigations with DHS in the New England field office. You know one of the things that I wonder as we came up through the ranks there are generational differences which you experienced and I experienced. You're right, it is a different world now and I think it's about empowering others, giving them a little bit of latitude, not micromanaging them, and certainly there's not a lot of micromanaging them and certainly there's not a lot of micromanaging that goes on federal agencies, although there are some that require a little bit of extra attention to kick in the ass. I understand that, but you don't want that to be everyone. 

20:43

I have a lot of respect for those who were 1811s federal agents, but I'm sure you saw sort of a more autocratic approach, some of the meetings you went through where people didn't give a shit what you had to say, could care less what you had to say, just do don't give me an excuse get it done. And it was top down, and I know you experienced it. But I also know that there has been almost a I call it an unfreezing of that approach In many cases. You know the best way we can do is who are our best boss or our worst bosses, and what did we learn from each? And what did we learn not to do, not to repeat, right? So you're chuckling. Tell me what you're thinking. 

Mike Krol Guest

21:20

I think one of the best learning experiences I've had. I was in Boston as an assistant special agent in charge and our former director came for an all hands meeting and at the end of the all hands meeting he said to me I'd love to have you come down to DC as the chief of staff for HSI. And I politely chuckled and said no way, no, thanks, I can't move my family again. We just got back from DC and he laughed and he said you know it's not really a job you can decline. So I said okay, can I talk to my wife? Is there a way we could work this out for flexibility and, of course, fast forward? Yes, I do accept the job. I go down to DC. That director then retires, another actor comes in, that one retires and another one comes in who I ultimately become the chief of staff for. 

22:04

But what I see as the chief of staff is you're dealing every day with a workforce of 10,000. Every single solitary problem issue that comes up is going to come through you, up to the director. But you also see the political influence from Congress asking questions, your traditional questions. For the record. You learn very quickly what's important, how to multitask, but also how to soothe very fiery issues that could flame up very quickly and if you don't do it effectively and diplomatically, it's going to cause much more of an issue, not only for you but for everyone involved. So I spent two years as chief of staff dealing with Congress, dealing with all of our executives. But also chief of staff you're not a senior executive level position. You are basically right under the director and in a straight line from that, but you're not. Quote unquote in SES. 

Steve Morreale Host

22:56

Right. So you're not on equal footing with the people you're interacting with and asking for answers, except you're representing the. I've had that kind of position myself. You're representing somebody extremely high and you've got to answer me. But you don't have to respect me, but you're going to have to answer me. 

Mike Krol Guest

23:08

Correct. You learn very quickly how to be smooth of the tongue, if you will. You know to make sure that you're asking appropriately but you're also respecting whatever position they're in. But also you'll be dealing with staffers from the White House or staffers from the Hill or members or doing briefings on behalf of the director of private sector counterparts. But also seeing from the director which kind of gets to your point is, when we go around the world and we meet with our workforce, you see directly from that person what makes them tick. 

23:39

And our director at the time was very much a man of the people and listened to people and wanted to help our agents, our staff. It didn't matter who you were, he would take your call, he would listen to you, he would respond. That's very unusual and he would make sure Right. Extremely unusual. But you learn he is the most important but also busiest guy in the whole entire agency. If he can take the time to send a quick note of thanks to somebody for a job well done, that just goes without saying that it makes people feel good about the job they do. But it also gives them kind of that embrace of leadership that they care and they're listening and they're watching and they know what it is that matters to you know as a line agent as a line analyst. 

24:20

So I took that really back into the field here, locally, and especially now with you see our law enforcement officers every day. Of course they're not going to highlight the great work we do. They're just waiting for you to trip and fall so they can highlight that issue. So I really just want to make sure that I'm invested in our people, that I'm doing everything I can to make their job easier, that I can give them everything they need to be successful. But honestly, it's all about going home at the end of the day. 

24:46

As you well know, Steve, I feel like the crazy just keeps getting crazier, just keeps getting crazier. So and I say that it's kind of a pun because it's just feel like what we deal with every day has grown in complexity and threat posture from the time that I started, and really that's where I've come to HSI is having such an expansive investigative mandate. We're really involved in everything, so our agents are consistently on the wheel, if you will, for TDY, for travel. I want to make sure that wellness and their well-being is at the top of the list for leadership. 

Steve Morreale Host

25:19

So I want to talk about the work of HSI, but I want to talk a little bit about ego. But, more importantly, I want you to take me into meetings that you have your command staff meeting or your staff. You're sitting, you've sat through meetings with various directors. You watch the way they handle it, they posture. It can be top-down, it can be tactical or it can be. Here's what we've got. I need your feedback. 

25:41

You know that you, as a leader, making a decision unilaterally is not always the best decision. Sometimes you have to In some way. You have to gather information before that decision can be made. And what strikes me with leadership is that when you make a decision it doesn't have to be final, but you've worked for people who have done exactly that. We're not talking about that again. We've already made the decision and yet there are so many changing variables that if you don't make a change because something happened, then you're a damn fool. So tell me how you tend to set the stage for meetings I mean sometimes it's tactical meetings, but planning meetings that you need their feedback and you're not going to let them sit there on their thumb. 

Mike Krol Guest

26:22

You know I'm very lucky with our management team and our leadership team. They're phenomenal and I've worked with them over the years, so I have trust with them, which I think is probably the most important thing that we can have as a leadership team. But I would say, during our meetings, you know, I try to as best I can get everybody involved and hear everyone's point of view. I know I'm not the smartest guy. 

Steve Morreale Host

26:43

I think that's obvious just by looking at you. I'm kidding, I'm kidding. My wife will tell you the same Mine too, buddy they humble us, don't they? 

Mike Krol Guest

26:52

Everyone comes to these jobs. You know, if you're a supervisory special agent, analyst, data scientist, whatever your job series is, or if you've come to the ranks as an ASAC or a deputy special agent in charge, you have life experience. You have very specialized experience that got you to this point. You know, gone are the days of I'm Joe's buddy, I'm just going to promote right through the ranks. I mean, we have career boards. We have those checks and balances on who gets to sit in these seats, so I'd be crazy not to listen to them with the authority that they come to the room with. 

27:29

And really for the complexity of our mission. I really rely on them for and we have five assistant special agents in charge and Kay Poe from public affairs and external engagement. We're talking about all these people with such unique and expansive purviews that I really need to hear from them, and what we deal with on a daily basis changes. It changes by the week. So every week we do a management meeting. If we need to cancel, we try to make it up if we can, but it's really going over top line issues and concerns to our office and our agency and then also hearing from them about what works and what doesn't. We have strategic meetings, which we try to do, leadership meetings often, or do trainings, and that's also where we try to work together to achieve a common goal as a management team. 

28:06

Because what we see is our special agents, our employees, look to the front office as a stern for their every day. If they see turmoil in the front office and they see dispute and conflict, they're not going to have any confidence that we can lead this agency or this office effectively. So I really try to show through our actions rather than our words that we mean what we say. We mean if we're going to help you, if we're going to try to make this job easier on you, that you will see the resulting action that gets you to that point. So listen, I rely on our staff every day. It's a must. 

Steve Morreale Host

28:42

So I recognize that it's impossible for any of us to know it all. I don't know it all. You don't know what you don't know, and it sounds to me like one of the things you're doing is you're not a specialist in all of these areas and you're relying on others to say what are the issues, what can be done, how can we fix, how can we make it easier? Part of that, in my mind, is understanding how to lead through questions, posing questions and listening. Your job, in my opinion, is really more important to listen and then make decisions, but get as much information as possible. What's your thought on that? 

Mike Krol Guest

29:11

I try to lead exactly as you say. You know, reading leadership books, I've seen some interesting schools of thought. I think Simon Sinek probably said it best where leaders should talk last and I really appreciate that approach. Sometimes it's hard, especially when you're dealing with operational posture and things that need immediate response, but to listen to input is to allow our staff to feel heard and to feel respected. 

If they don't feel that way, they're never going to talk. 

Mike Krol Guest

29:38

If I shut down everything they say, they're never going to have input on anything, and the only people that lose is our workforce and the American public. So I try to lead through asking people questions, but also just hearing their input. It doesn't have to be our leadership team, walk down the hall and talk to be our leadership team. Walk down the hall and talk to our agents or staff, and that's normally when they're most honest. When their guard is down, they see me walking to grab a cup of coffee. 

Steve Morreale Host

30:01

They're not in a meeting. Not everybody's watching them, right. 

Mike Krol Guest

30:03

That's where you hear the scuttlebutt and the general undertone of the office when people see you and say, hey, you know, on these secret service details, maybe we could do it this way, or we really need more time to prepare our families before we go. So those are just small little tokens of kind of knowledge that I take every day as we go into leadership meetings to really try to get a pulse of where our folks are at, because their job is hard I think it's much harder than my job but we disagree, but I don't and you know, you've heard the term like you're just the suits and you're in the ivory tower and you don't know what the hell is going on, and that's not true. 

Steve Morreale Host

30:36

So, basically, the old MBWA management by walking around is important. The question I would ask of you is how do you think that your work as an agent, your work in headquarters, some of the training they may have provided you, has helped you craft your own customized leadership style? 

Mike Krol Guest

30:54

It certainly has. There's so many things I can think of right now. You know, I think some of the more formal leadership training we've had, I've taken bits and pieces from it. Right, it's not a one size fits all approach. But to your point earlier, I learned from the people that I really took to as a young agent in their style. You're going to have your own style. 

31:16

I pride myself in being operationally savvy and diplomatic, I think in most situations and standing up HSI's congressional engagement portfolio kind of helped me do so, especially dealing with the politics of being part of DHS, being part of HSI and others. But I think every situation gets you to a point where you're putting it all into a circle. Each cog helps that wheel go around and I think over the years, from experiences from the Boston bombing response and investigation to Lewiston Maine to dealing with suicide and others you take a piece every time, something or some conversation or some interaction or some experience. You take a piece of each of those experiences over the years and I think you meld your leadership style based off that. 

Steve Morreale Host

32:06

So let me ask you this question. That raises another question. We're talking to Mike Krol. He's the special agent in charge at HSI here in the New England field division. Has your leadership approach and style changed over time? Has it evolved? 

Mike Krol Guest

32:18

It has evolved. I thought I knew it all as a young guy and I didn't, and I learned very quickly that I didn't. What I learned very early on was that you never know what somebody is going through that works for you, that you work with. Everybody has a story and there was one specific time I remember speaking to an agent and having to force this agent onto a detail Very high performer, phenomenal agent and little did I realize that he was dealing with a significant personnel issue at home. Health of family kids never brought it up to me, ever, ever. And here I am thinking this guy is trying to duck a detail which wasn't like him at all. But that was really kind of the first time as a leader. I was like, hey, I really need to get much more invested in what our folks are going through If they want to talk to me about it, or not. 

33:09

I need to be keen to their senses and to know when they're not right. Unfortunately, I had two of my partners, both from DEA, committed suicide and I always say to myself should I have seen the signs or should I have known? And I think to the point we made earlier is you just need to pay attention, and that's 90% of being a leader is paying attention to your people, their needs, their wants, their desires, their requests. 

33:36

So that, to me, is probably the most important key principle of leadership is just making sure that you know the pulse of your workforce and do everything you can to make sure that work is something that they enjoy. 

33:50

Coming to work is enjoyable for them, that it's not a chore and that you're not creating more havoc within their life if they already have enough of it at home. So, yeah, I think everything that I've gone through has kind of brought me to a point of much more compassionate leading versus hey, I need to get so many stats, we need to have so many money seizures. That really isn't as important to me anymore as much as pulse surveys of the office. Are we happy here? Are we still meeting the mark? Are we still innovating? Are we still doing everything we need to do to make sure that we're kind of hitting what the American public expects of federal agents? And with that I can say yes, absolutely, we're always able to do more. But I think it's very much kind of the ebb and flow of knowing what your people need and then balancing that with what we need to do for DC and our bosses and our constituents and the American public that rely on us every day. 

Steve Morreale Host

34:42

We're going to begin to wind down We've still got some time, but there's two things that are still on my list to talk about, and one of them is the work of HSI, and I'll end with that, I think, and give you an opportunity to say some last words. I'm curious about you as one of 30 special agents in charge and the training that you go through, the interaction you go through, sac Council, whatever it might be, management Council, national management council. Tell us about that. 

Mike Krol Guest

35:08

So as one of 30 special agents in charge in HSI, we all cover a specific region. I cover all six New England states. Every single one of our special agents in charge is what is considered senior executive service. So you go through OPM. There's, you know, kind of a clearinghouse of executive core qualifications. 

Steve Morreale Host

35:26

That's in my book too, because I think the public I'm talking about outside of the government that can be very valuable. But for another day, mike. 

Mike Krol Guest

35:32

Yes, correct. But listen, our special agents in charge have come up through the ranks, their requirements for headquarters, tours and certainly areas where each of us have our unique qualifications but all kind of meld into one where any of us could eventually become the head of HSI or the deputy of HSI. Hsi is unique in that the head of HSI is not a political appointee, so it's actually a law enforcement special agent. So that for me kind of provides that clarity of mission for all of us. We're not a top-down, we're kind of a bottom-up type leadership entity where the special agents in charge have a lot of authority but also freedom to work on those threats that we see within our area of responsibility, which change throughout the country. 

36:18

As you all know, the Southwest border has a very different threat matrix than the Northeast or the Midwest or whatever it may be. So we do get together a lot. We have leadership engagements, we have investiture programs. There's a lot that we do as an executive corps to drive our agency forward. But really we are kind of that leadership cadre that needs to keep our agents very much focused and our personnel very much focused on the end goal, which is ensuring national security and public safety for the United States. 

Steve Morreale Host

36:49

So let's talk about that mission and how it has morphed, how it has grown, and certainly one of the things you said. So I'm just teaching a course on border security, a graduate course which is extremely important and very, very interesting. Can become very political and I try to stay away from that. But we have the northern and southern border and when people look at the northern border, which you are responsible for, that's a potential threat. Many of us I mean the landmass is amazing, the geography is horrible, right, it's all of those kinds of things. But tell us what keeps your agents busy, what I will say is to your point earlier. 

Mike Krol Guest

37:21

You talk about working in today's environment and there is nothing we as HSI can do alone. So collaborative engagement, public and private sector engagement and partnerships are key to our success and really the success of the US government facing these threats. Hsi has one of the most unique and expansive investigative mandates in the federal government. We are the second largest investigative agency, second only to the FBI. So our authorities are unique. We enforce over 400 federal criminal statutes and with that certainly have our investigative mandates, which we can start from ensuring public safety, upholding global trade, investigating cybercrime, combating financial crime, protecting national security, preventing crimes of exploitation and victimization, and then obviously we have our border nexus and securing the border on the investigative side of things. 

38:11

So there is no shortage of work for us and, as you see on the news, our agents and our agency has been tasked with providing thousands of special agents outside of our traditional mission set to the United States Secret Service. So we just finished up the UN General Assembly where we had about 1,200 special agents, and on top of that we have jump teams with the Secret Service now, which boils down to about another thousand agents or so. So being able to juggle the broad spectrum of what we do is difficult to say the least, but we are doing a very good job and the best we could possibly do. Of course there's always more we can do with more resources and personnel, but I think for what we have now we're doing a very good job. 

Steve Morreale Host

38:50

So when you sit down and you assess all of these things, you're responsible for both here across the country and across the globe. I presume that you have legal attaches or country attaches at certain places. Right, we do, okay, so how many people are in New England? 

Mike Krol Guest

39:06

So we have about 300 people in New England, just under 200 special agents spread throughout 12 field offices in all six New England states, and then we have our hub here in Boston Massachusetts. 

Steve Morreale Host

39:18

So understanding both with DEA and my time with HHS, the inspector general, some offices are 50, some are two, some are three. Is that accurate? 

Mike Krol Guest

39:26

Correct. I think we try to keep it at 10 to 12 within a resident agent in charge office, but we do have some resident agent offices, which are two or three, working with our state, local, federal partner and tribal partners as well. 

Steve Morreale Host

39:38

I understand. So you're sitting around the table. You've got human trafficking, you've got drug trafficking, you've got incursion. Whatever it is that you have, are there special groups like DEA had that focus on the particular threats as they rise or they ebb and flow? 

Mike Krol Guest

39:53

In Boston. We do so. We have 10 enforcement groups here in Boston. It spans from our Eldorado money laundering task force to our document and benefit fraud task force, to our kind of proliferation and sensitive technologies group, to our cyber group, our child exploitation group. 

We have so many I can go on and on as you get out to the resident agent in charge offices, you become kind of a master of all versus a specialized. 

Mike Krol Guest

40:18

We do have people that are very specialized, especially when it comes to live streaming of sexual exploitation. Those are very specialized technical skills. But as you kind of get to the smaller offices you could be responding to a narcotic seizure or you could be working a child exploitation lead or you could be responding to an airport or the northern border, whatever it may be. So certainly we have our people that are very, very specialized here in Boston where we have the ability to do so, and then as you kind of spread out it gets a little less specialized, but people still try to keep with the threats that involve that specific AR. 

Steve Morreale Host

40:50

And that must be changing. Always, right, always. Here's a big one, here's a new one. Holy moly, we weren't ready for that. Let's get some training, let's get people on it. Dark web is a problem for us. Side web is a problem, right. 

Mike Krol Guest

•  

41:00

Crypto yes, emerging technologies it's something that I think HSI has done a very good job of, especially through our innovation lab, which is down in DC, but dark web methodologies and technology is something that we have. 

Steve Morreale Host

41:13

Can you imagine we're talking about this? Did you think about that? 

Mike Krol Guest

41:15

originally. Well, you talk about a workforce too, and you talk about the kind of expanding the workforce I never in a million years figured I'd be hiring data scientists and forensics specialists to help us in investigations, and that has become really the norm rather than the exception. It's a big portfolio Mike, I always say I'd never be hired today if I applied for this job Me neither you and I are together. 

41:38

Our new special agents and analysts and everyone that works for us. I just feel like they're so amazingly overqualified compared to what I was when I first started. I was lucky to have a break and get in, but really give them a lot of credit in this environment and with this posture for those that still want to take the leap of faith and become a special agent to work for law enforcement entities writ large, I give people a lot of credit for that public service and the service mindset. 

I feel like it's lacking these days. 

Mike Krol Guest

42:05

I do speak to a lot of colleges and schools and I love to hear from the young eager that want to do the right thing and want to serve, and my mother always said do what you love and get paid to do it. I've really been blessed that I've done that and I wouldn't change a thing about it. Of course can I make more money in the private sector? Probably Would I be as happy and as satiated with the work. 

Steve Morreale Host

42:27

Did you say satiated? Yes, I love that. Yeah, I don't think so. I understand, I understand. I mean, I think it's duty bound and so that's really special. So, as we wind down, a couple of things. I know that you collaborate with other people. Is there a task force associated with HSI? 

Mike Krol Guest

42:41

Yeah, so we have six national coordination centers. So we have six national coordination centers. So we have our Counterproliferation Mission Center which is in Huntsville, Alabama. That's also our new national academy. Then we have our Innovation Lab, which is public and private sector partnerships, working on all emerging technologies and kind of the emergence of cyber-enabled crime. We run DHS's Cyber Crime Center, which is called C3, so that HSI Secret Service and others. We have our Forensics lab and then we're a partner to the Special Operations Division in the National. Intellectual Property Rights Center. 

Steve Morreale Host

43:15

It is HSI's lead, just like DEA had and the FBI has the JTDF or whatever task force officers does. Hsi do that. So we have our Border. 

Mike Krol Guest

43:23

Enforcement Security Task Forces is our national task force model. I see we have about 4,500 state, local, tribal and foreign and then our transnational criminal investigative units overseas. I think we have 15 now which are vetted, polygraphed foreign nationals that work on behalf of HSI in the foreign environment at US embassies and consulates all over the world. 

Steve Morreale Host

43:45

That's great. You're proud of this organization. 

Mike Krol Guest

43:47

So proud. Listen, I love the job, I love the mission. Every day is a new day here. Of course, sometimes you lose sleep, but other times you feel really, really confident that the people that are protecting the American public are some of the best and most committed public servants that I've ever met. So really, really proud of HSI and where we've come. We've grown leaps and bounds and I think a lot of that is due to kind of our branding of the HSI name and mission so people understand what it is that we do. 

Steve Morreale Host

44:13

I think it's come a long way. I mean, you haven't even hit 15 years yet, right? True, wow, that's just amazing. It is amazing and you've been a part of it growing, which is what an opportunity for you. Huh, yeah, I love it. It's great you hiring. How do young people get in touch? Where do they find you and the other jobs that are available with HSI so you can go? 

Mike Krol Guest

44:29

HSI.gov is our website. Every resource should be available to you on that, and then also always advise people looking for jobs in the federal government to go on usajobs.gov probably the best resource for jobs, but for HSI you get to see some of the work we do every day press releases from all over the country, some of our national initiatives, but also you get to see what we're hiring for and where we're hiring and just get to know us a little bit better. So really proud of that website. It's new as of April, so hopefully people get a chance to check it out. 

Steve Morreale Host

45:00

Well, this has been very informative and very fun to talk with you, Mike, and it's nice to meet. I really think it's inspiring in a lot of ways. It seems to me that the only way we can meet the need is by working together, not having and you understand what I'm about to say not having jurisdictional vanity. That it's ours, we did it, that kind of stuff that it's sharing, that the best way to do it is to collaborate, and together, because we all have our strengths. Whether it's the FBI, the DEA, it could be the Marshal Service, the local police, state police, whatever that is, you have the last word. What's your sense of the future of policing? 

Mike Krol Guest

45:32

I think it's the ebb and flow, Steve. People will always want to serve and will always want to do the right thing. Politics aside, our police officers you know, formed or not are some of the most committed people that I've ever met, including military and others in that. It's a noble profession. You'll never be rich doing it, but I think it's one of the best careers you can have where you feel that your work matters. You're not worried about meeting a sales goal at the end of the month. You worry about making sure you're doing everything possible to make sure that the person to the left and the right of you is taken care of and that the American public is safe. 

46:08

I have confidence in kind of where the law enforcement sector will go in the future. We went to a hiring event in DC and we had nearly 10,000 people show up for that event in person. So that gives you hope. And to see it personally and firsthand, I'm glad I went because when I was interviewing some of the people I couldn't believe that they wanted to be special agents with their qualifications and backgrounds. So I feel very confident. I feel certainly willing and able to help anyone, as I was helped along the way. So I open that to anyone. I try to help as much as I can, especially in speaking to students, but we need to stay invested in this career. We need to pay attention, but, most importantly, we need to ensure that our people are doing the right thing every day, all day, and that they're staying safe, because the American public deserves nothing less. 

Steve Morreale Host

46:55

So I was drawn to my guest, Mike Krol, who is the special agent in charge from LinkedIn, because he is using LinkedIn and I use LinkedIn an awful lot to sort of rally people behind the job that his people are doing, that he's telling everybody that people are working hard on behalf of the public, and so I thank you very much for being here taking the time. I can't say enough it's great to talk to a former DEA colleague that has now risen up and being as successful as you are, Mike. Thank you so, so much. 

Mike Krol Guest

47:22

Thank you, Steve, thanks for your service and obviously, whatever I can do to help you or anyone else listening, I'm all ears and ready to do so. That's great. 

Steve Morreale Host

47:29

Well, it's been another wonderful conversation with somebody I feel is innovative and a thought leader himself. We've been talking to Mike Krol. Another episode of The CopDoc Podcast is in the books. Stay tuned. I keep hearing from people about the things they are gaining from the conversations that I am lucky enough to have with all of these wonderful people who are trying to make a difference. So thanks, stay safe, have a good day. 

Intro/Outro Announcement

47:53

Thanks for listening to The CopDoc Podcast with Dr Steve Morreale. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager, turned academic and scholar from Worcester State University. Please tune into The CopDoc Podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.