Bruce O'Brien - From New Zealand to London: Policing Without Borders

The CopDoc Podcast - Season 8 - Episode 159

When criminal networks operate across continents, police must work beyond borders. In this compelling conversation with Assistant Commissioner Bruce O'Brien, we explore the critical world of international police collaboration from the perspective of someone building these vital connections daily.

As New Zealand Police's Senior Liaison Officer in London, O'Brien bridges law enforcement across four regions: the UK, Europe, Middle East, and Africa. He reveals how these partnerships function in practice – from facilitating evidence gathering in transnational cases to sharing intelligence about emerging threats. "Criminal networks are very well connected and know no boundaries," O'Brien explains, highlighting how technology enables criminals to coordinate sophisticated operations remotely.

The discussion delves into the methamphetamine trade threatening New Zealand and Australia, requiring close cooperation with Pacific partners to intercept shipments. O'Brien offers fascinating insights into the UK's approach to facial recognition technology, balancing effective crime-fighting with transparent ethical frameworks that maintain public trust.

We explore O'Brien's leadership journey from frontline supervisor to strategic leader, examining how policing leadership evolves while its fundamental purpose remains constant: "delivering good services to the community and holding those who create harm accountable." His perspective on what future police leaders need – technological fluency paired with unwavering integrity – provides valuable guidance for anyone in law enforcement.

For those interested in global security, criminal justice, or leadership development, this conversation offers rare insights into how international police cooperation works in our increasingly interconnected world. What emerging threats might travel from one continent to another? How do police agencies share information across different legal systems? Listen to discover how these critical relationships protect communities worldwide.

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com 

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Transcript

Introduction to Bruce O'Brien

Intro-Outro 0:00

Welcome to the CopDoc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The CopDoc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia and other government agencies. And now please join Dr Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on the Cop Doc Podcast.

Steve Morreale 0:30

Well, hello everybody. It is early morning here in Boston and I'm headed over across the pond where it's just afternoon time in London and we're talking, ironically, to Assistant Commissioner Bruce O'Brien Our second discussion with Bruce. We talked to him a few years ago while he was down under and now he is a Senior Liaison Officer for the New Zealand Police in London. So good afternoon, Bruce.

Bruce O'Brien 1:00

Thanks, Steve, and good morning to you and nice to be back having a chat.

Steve Morreale 1:03

It is, and thank you. We were talking a few moments before. You were going to be involved in the new book that will be coming out, voices in Blue, and this interview, without question, will end up somewhere else in another book of the series. But let's talk about you. You have left New Zealand for a special detail and you are now working in London and you're responsible for a number of countries big countries so I presume there's some travel involved, but tell us that job now.

Bruce O'Brien 1:34

So I've been based in London now at the New Zealand High Commission for the last couple of years and my role, as you've just said, is the Senior Liaison Officer for New Zealand Police. So I sort of oversee and have responsibility for New Zealand Police's footprint in the UK, europe, the Middle East and Africa, so quite a large geographical area. I've got a small team of colleagues here that look after different aspects of the work that we do, focusing on transnational organised crime and counterterrorism, and I've also got a colleague that's based over at Europol, so there's a small team up here. We have a large area to cover but we work closely with our partners and work on a number of different investigations and intelligence sharing to keep our respective countries safe.

Steve Morreale 2:22

So you must be enjoying it. And one of the first things, let's talk about the complete difference in your responsibility. It's a liaison, and I know the DEA does this all over the world. So does the FBI and other agencies DHS now and Sue, you're a representative, as you said. You've got a team working for you, but I presume the first thing you're doing is glad-handing. You're going out, you're meeting people, you're creating a relationship as the new person overseeing New Zealand's responsibilities in these three continents. Talk about that.

Bruce O'Brien 2:57

Yeah, so it is all based around relationships, because we obviously don't have jurisdiction in the area that we're responsible for. So it is really about relationships and working with close partners on mutually beneficial issues, be it crime or intelligence sharing or policy and practice that we want to understand how each is working on, be it training or be it on firearms training or whatever the issue may be. So it is very much about relationships, being a good, trusted partner, having respect for those jurisdictions that you're working in and understanding that they work within different legal frameworks. So sometimes things take longer than they would if you were working in that domestic sort of scenario.

Bruce O'Brien 3:49

So, yeah, it's really interesting and I've just finished up well, coming close to 26 years in the police, which has gone really quickly, but what I would say is, working in that international space, I've learned a lot in the last couple of years. So you really one understand how other organizations are working and some of those challenges that they have that are similar to your own home organization, but you're also learning how different organizations are doing things, be it training, and there's a lot to take away, there's a lot to share. So it's been a fantastic experience for the last couple of years and I'm really enjoying it.

Steve Morreale 4:27

Well, I think anytime we do this and we travel and we find out exactly what you were saying, how different agencies work, understanding the nuances and then applying them and explaining what your situation is very valuable, because I think you have a tendency to grow. Without question. A great opportunity for you. But let's go back to your home country and the home police department. What is the interaction, without giving away any secrets, what is the interaction between New Zealand and your office in terms of saying we've got this, we're curious about this. Can you give us some information? Right, We've got some phone calls back to London. You understand how that game is played. We've got some phone calls coming out of Africa or the Middle East. How can you help us, Tell us how that happens, how that communication happens?

International Liaison Role and Responsibilities

Bruce O'Brien 5:18

So part of my role is that conduit. So be it an investigation that's happening back in New Zealand where investigators need access to be it evidence, they may need a statement taken from a witness that's based now in the UK or somewhere in Europe. It could be a small piece of evidence that they require in regards to a transnational organised crime shipment of illicit commodities, be it drugs or firearms or whatever the case is. So part of my role is that conduit between our organisation and our partners. The other thing that we work closely with is both Interpol and Europol, so they're two large organisations that again they help coordinate those international requests for assistance or evidence sharing. So a lot of it is really putting the right people in touch with each other.

Steve Morreale 6:15

Yeah, so in a lot of ways you're a connector Connector, I think you're right.

Bruce O'Brien 6:20

And also the other big part of my role, which I think is really important in these liaison positions, is scanning the horizon for those threats that might be occurring in Europe, for instance, that are either going to impact New Zealand or one of our close partners, be it Australia, the US, uk, canada or any of our other European partners. So sometimes I may see a trend that's happening somewhere in my area of responsibility and I will bring that to the attention of either our intelligence part of the business or it may be one of our investigators that may be working in that area. So a lot of it is about future scanning, horizon scanning and making those connections. So yeah, it's quite a varied role, but I do see us a large part of our work is coordinating those connections that investigators need to get the right results back in the domestic situation.

Steve Morreale 7:19

So we're talking to Bruce O'Brien. He's an assistant commissioner and now detailed in London with responsibilities of liaison, senior liaison officer and I wonder if there's a reciprocation. I presume that there is as much as you're looking to share back with New Zealand and get information for your home country. I can't imagine that there aren't some outreach to say, hey, we're looking at this that's tied back to New Zealand. Can you help us in that way? So there's a lot of reciprocation, would you say.

Bruce O'Brien 7:50

Oh, definitely, and look. New Zealand's a long way away from the rest of the world. However, our criminal networks are very well connected, like most countries.

Bruce O'Brien 8:00

They know no boundaries right Exactly, and the way technology is now, these people can coordinate, be it a large shipment of methamphetamine, as an example, via phone. They can do it remotely. It's a very, very interconnected world now, so a lot of the time there are those inquiries that need to be done back in New Zealand on behalf of partners up here, either in the UK or Europe. So, yeah, again, it's reciprocal and that's all about being a good partner, working within our legal frameworks to ensure that the information that we are providing meets all the obligations that we have to meet, but also ensuring that we're assisting our partners where we can to keep their respective countries safe and hold those accountable that are doing harm in those communities.

Steve Morreale 8:50

So, with a potential posting of four years, how often will you be back in your mainland? Do you go back?

Bruce O'Brien 8:58

Yeah, so the majority of my traveling is within my region of responsibility, so a lot of travel into Europe and down to the Middle East, etc. So that would be the vast majority of travel. I do go back to New Zealand on occasion. I was back there earlier this year for a, for a conference, which was great to connect back to what the priorities are back home. But you know, as I say, modern technology there's probably not a day that goes by that I'm not connected back to a colleague or back to our executive leadership team on the areas that they want to focus on, which is really good.

Bruce O'Brien 9:34

We had a new commissioner appointed in November, commissioner Richard Chambers, who's very focused on that international space. Richard was based at Interpol up until about October last year, so he's got a really good understanding of the importance of working with our international partners and the fact that crime is very, very global, now very interconnected, and those trends that may not have, you know, historically may have taken six months, 12 months to get to New Zealand. You know, because people are so well connected these days it's pretty much instantaneous. Be it child exploitation or be it drug importation, this stuff can happen really, really quickly and that's why the value of those partnerships is so important.

Steve Morreale 10:21

So, with everything you've done in your 26-year history in policing here in this new post, how have you found yourself growing?

Building Cross-Border Relationships

Bruce O'Brien 10:33

Well, I think I look at that continuous improvement perspective because I think, if you're very focused domestically, in my previous roles I was very fortunate in the sense that when I had national responsibility for intelligence as an example, I used to work with intelligence partners in different parts of the world, as I did with deployment as well. So you did get that exposure. But probably the big thing that I've taken away here on that personal growth is looking at how other jurisdictions do things really well and then taking those back to my home jurisdiction. I think that's been one of the big value points. Secondly, being offshore, I also think it helps you appreciate and understand some of those challenges that other organisations are facing that if our organisation doesn't take some deliberate steps, we could be facing in the future as well.

Bruce O'Brien 11:30

So the big one is around trust and confidence. That's always at the forefront of policing. How you ensure that you're staying ahead of that and making sure that those decisions that you're making as an organisation are transparent and have the integrity and ensure that the community trusts those decisions on what the police are doing. So being at the other end of the globe does allow you to see some of that take place and being able to go back to the New Zealand police and sort of say, hey, this is what we're seeing in this particular area. It allows our colleagues to consider that as part of their deployment and future planning as well.

Steve Morreale 12:08

So let's talk about the island that you were on and the impact of so I take you back home the impact of Southeast Asia on your country and on Australia.

Bruce O'Brien 12:25

Yeah. So you know, it's a really big region down there. We've got the Pacific, obviously, and, as you say, we've got, you know, very close to Southeast Asia, although New Zealand, you know, you're still sort of 10, 12 hours away by plane ride, Closer than we are. Closer than we are, yeah, definitely closer. The big thing there is, again, it's all about relationships. So we have a very, very strong relationship with our Pacific Island nations.

Bruce O'Brien 12:50

We've got a very, very strong relationship with Australia and also our Southeast Asian partners, and I've got colleagues based in Bangkok and I've got colleagues based in Kuala Lumpur and we work very closely with our colleagues there as well. And, be it issues around drug importations, there's a big cooperation amongst all of the countries to prevent, you know, drugs getting into our respective nations that cause so much harm. There's a big partnership around that Capacity building, capability assistance, capacity building capability assistance that's maybe required in that region. Also, sometimes it's that mutual sharing of resources if there's a large disaster that's taken place, and you know, both New Zealand and Australia at times have shared policing resource for various natural disasters, such as the wildfires in Australia or earthquakes in New Zealand. We had the White Island eruption a few years back as well that Australian counterparts assisted with. So I see it as again, you sort of come back to your earlier point around relationships and partnerships. It's very strong in that region.

Steve Morreale 14:04

I am assuming that human trafficking becomes a potential issue and certainly terrorism becomes an issue, as you're sharing with each other and looking for hot spots and, as you say, trends. Is that fair?

Bruce O'Brien 14:18

That is fair. That's right. Unfortunately, we do see human trafficking in different parts of the world, and not only trafficking but exploitation of people that are trying to get into certain parts of the world. So that is an area that we contribute to and focus on as well. Counter-terrorism is obviously a global issue that really to combat, that is, intelligence sharing, to ensure that we are sharing intelligence where we can to prevent these things from happening, working with our closest partners around, supporting them and in various investigations that they may have ongoing. So, again, it's that collaboration piece that's so, so important and, as I say, the world is is is getting smaller with technology, the way people are able to coordinate this illegal behavior, which has such significant impacts and so harmful on certain communities.

Steve Morreale 15:16

How much of an impact does the continent of Africa have on your work?

Bruce O'Brien 15:22

Yeah, so it's an area of my responsibility. I don't get down to that continent very often. We still have trusted partners down there that we work with on issues as they arise, if needed. If needed, I would say the vast majority of our focus really is that global transnational organized crime. New Zealand unfortunately still has a very lucrative market for methamphetamine primarily, and methamphetamine is moved globally from different parts of the world the precursors- and such the DEA comes out and you talk about that.

Bruce O'Brien 16:02

Yes, Exactly so. New Zealand and Australia work very closely, as we do with our Pacific partners, around combating methamphetamine shipments getting down into our respective countries, be it by sea or air. So that's a really big focus of ours because we know the damage it does once it gets into our community.

Steve Morreale 16:22

It must be a bit easier for New Zealand to control its borders. Is that a fair assessment?

Bruce O'Brien 16:29

Yes, it is in the sense that we are, as I say, we've got a large distance between us and neighboring countries, but these organized crime groups are always evolving, always looking for new ways to exploit, be it the borders.

Fighting Global Drug Trafficking

Bruce O'Brien 16:46

They're always looking at new ways of getting illicit commodities into countries. So that's why it's so important to be very contemporary around new trends on smuggling, new trends on certain areas that may be getting exploited that we need to work with our partners on to ensure that we're mitigating those risks as best as possible. And sometimes, steve, police don't have the levers to pull, so we have to rely on other parts of either government agencies, be it the custom services or our immigration partners. So you've got to look at all agencies, and sometimes non-government agencies, to combat this type of offending, be it illicit drugs or people trafficking. So that's why those relationships and partnerships that I keep coming back to is so important in these roles. And even domestically, you see that playing out in a community level, be it family violence as an example, police have only got so many levers that they can pull. You have to work with a vast range of agencies to prevent, disrupt and obviously hold people accountable for behavior.

Steve Morreale 17:57

Yeah, and that's certainly a very important point. Back to you, we're talking to Bruce O'Brien and he is with the New Zealand.

Intro-Outro 18:03

Police and working as senior liaison in London for the Middle East UK.

Steve Morreale 18:10

Europe and Africa. Are you having fun in this new post, Loving it?

Bruce O'Brien 18:17

Tell me what you're loving. Well, like I say, the opportunities that are presented around going to places and meeting people that you traditionally would never get those opportunities and the role certainly enables that to happen. It's a fantastic experience living offshore for a period of time. I'm quite fortunate my family get to experience it as well, so they're obviously living up here with me as well, so they're getting to experience that as well, and I love the UK. It's a fantastic place to be and our colleagues that we work with in the UK are great partners, always willing to help, and they're doing some fantastic work up here, especially around technology and AI. They've really, really embraced it and I'm seeing some excellent stuff happening up here in the UK.

Steve Morreale 19:07

So when you're watching, looking, learning, understanding, asking questions the curious guy that you are, it troubles me this way, here we are in policing. We are trained to investigate right, who did it, what happened, where were you? All that stuff? But sometimes we lose our way in investigating. What are the tools we could use, that others are using, that we could adapt and adopt for ourselves? And I think it's that personal interest and curiosity and willingness for lifelong learning that not only helps what you're seeing, but bringing it back to your shop. Is that a fair assessment?

Bruce O'Brien 19:46

I think so, and I think you're spot on in the sense that for policing to stay ahead and have the best opportunity to reduce crime and harm, you've got to be contemporary, and that may mean well-read, it may mean looking at the newest technologies and the newest investigative methods to stay ahead of the game, because we know criminal networks are always evolving.

Bruce O'Brien 20:11

They're always looking at new ways to beat the system, so to speak. So that's why it's so important for police and policing to remain contemporary. And I look at technology at the pace it's moving. Policing really needs to be at the forefront of this, because there's so much efficiency that we can make with using technology, and I think about some of the examples that I see here in the UK on how they're using facial recognition technology as an example. The Metropolitan Police here in London have had some fantastic results in not only preventing crime but also resolving and solving crimes that they may not have been able to solve without the use of facial recognition. So again, that goes back to taking every opportunity that you can to reduce crime and harm in communities, and technology is a big part of that.

Steve Morreale 21:07

Now, that's interesting, you say, because, as you're saying that, I'm thinking I presume there is so much CCTV in, especially in metropolitan London, new York and other places that just the trigger of facial recognition saying, hey, this guy's here, right, what's he doing here? It's sort of a trigger to say we've got to pay attention because this guy's a bad guy. Is that a fair statement?

Technology and AI in Modern Policing

Bruce O'Brien 21:38

The way that they've done, as an example, facial recognition technology in London is they balance the use of it with a really good ethical framework. They've done it transparently with the community and they're very transparent about reporting the results that they've had as well. So I think they've really provided a great blueprint for other jurisdictions to use, especially around facial recognition. Yeah, I think people would be naive to think that the use of facial recognition, as an example, is not going to be a common police practice in the future. But you've got to balance that with bringing the community along with its use and, as I say, have that ethical framework to ensure that you're complying with relevant pieces of legislation in certain jurisdictions, but also being really transparent with the community about how you're using it and why you're using it. And when you've got a significant crime problem and you've got intelligence to suggest that there's certain people going to be committing serious crimes and you've got the ability to combat that with facial recognition, I think there's an expectation from the community that you would be using it.

Steve Morreale 22:49

Yeah, Well, thank you. So there's so many questions that come from this, but there's a couple of things I'm thinking. Technology we spoke about technology. Ai we spoke about technology, that technology and its value that can be utilized. So what is your use of AI? Are you beginning to adapt and adopt? Are you using it to try and out? Try it out.

Bruce O'Brien 23:17

Yeah, so New Zealand police have adopted aspects of AI to assist police officers to be saving time. So there is some work underway in that space and it's like I say, there's a really good governance framework around how we consider policy, right, yes, yeah, so that's been really important. We're obviously always looking at how other jurisdictions are using it as well, and you'll know as well as I do that AI if you had said AI two years ago, three years ago, there would have been a very, very limited understanding. Now you look at our fast platforms such as ChatGPT and Copilot and the likes have come online and pretty much people are using it as part of everyday life now. So that's only going to be amplified and it's going to grow even faster. So, as an organization, we're certainly looking at how we can adopt it, make use of technology, but, as I say, balance that with the expectations of our communities and looking at ways that we can hold those committing the worst offenses in our communities to account, and it's just another really good tool to be able to do that.

Steve Morreale 24:30

So you're big on evidence-based policing. That's what we talked about the last time. There's a unit there which was very unusual in New Zealand. I presume that's still standing and probably evolving. Is that a fair?

Bruce O'Brien 24:42

statement. So the evidence-based policing team are still working really hard with the wider organization on different problems that the organisation's facing. The use of data is still a big part of decision making within our organisation, which is fantastic. There's been obviously a lot of personnel change since I had responsibility for it, so you've got some fantastic colleagues back there doing some great work and constantly looking at ways that we can be informed by good research and good data. So, yeah, and it's still very operationally focused as well, which is really important.

Steve Morreale 25:24

Are you taking a look at what's going on and how it's being used in the UK, especially in the Met?

Bruce O'Brien 25:33

Yeah, so EBP is still very strong. In the UK They've got the Society of Evidence-Based Policing, yeah they're meeting this week or last week?

Bruce O'Brien 25:41

yes, that's right. So it's definitely at the forefront, and I would say that not probably every force uses the term evidence-based policing, but what they do do is look at good, robust research and good data to inform their decisions, which I think is really important, and also the use of data to hold an organisation accountable. There's a really good framework up here His Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary where they have an agreed set of criteria that each force in the UK is reviewed on, and I think that provides a really good framework around that accountability piece. It also allows county forces to look for ways that they're going to improve services to the community. So again, it's all based off data. It's both qualitative and quantitative data that they're looking at. Definitely in the UK they've been in an early adopter and are still using EBP and the concept of EBP in daily work.

Steve Morreale 26:49

But no listen, I've done my share of walking around agencies and what strikes me, when I spent time in Ireland and I'm going to Scotland in October and I hope to see you in London in October Also, I'll be there for a few days but I wonder, when we walk in in other words, somebody like you and I who have a lot of experience but are curious you're walking in. I'm sure part of what you're doing is they're trying to brief you on what they're doing, but you've got as many questions you want to cut right to the chase. Well, how are you doing this and what are you doing with that? My question is that as you walk in with the experience, you have that quick introduction. They know who you are at first. But understanding that you understand that you've done the job, doesn't it instantly break down many of the barriers that we put up around us as cops?

Bruce O'Brien 27:41

Completely, and I think it's really interesting that when you do meet police from other countries and jurisdictions, it doesn't take long for those barriers to break down. Policing is policing right, we talk the same language.

Steve Morreale 27:55

And once we realize that you got it, you're in. I mean, I've walked into places where they tell me stuff that I should never know. This is what we're working. Isn't that happened to you? It's crazy.

Bruce O'Brien 28:06

Well and I know it's a bit of a cliche, but I think that saying it's one big family is really true.

Bruce O'Brien 28:13

Because you meet people, those barriers are broken down pretty much instantaneously, no matter where you are on the globe.

Bruce O'Brien 28:25

You know that EBP question or even research and in policing is I still always come back to that important question about how would this work at two o'clock in the morning for a couple of frontline police officers dealing with frontline policing, and I think that's really, really important and that's was always my ethos back in New Zealand is research is only good if it's going to enable police officers that are at the front end to do their job better, using their experience, plus whatever the research and data can assist them with. I think that's really, really important and I do see that sort of thinking here in the UK that it needs to enable the frontline and support the frontline to be able to do their job, either easily for the officers that are out there, but also delivering a better service for the community. So I think that's still really, really important is understanding that operational environment, the challenges that our colleagues face on the frontline, and looking at ways to enable them to do their job better.

Steve Morreale 29:32

So, bruce O'Brien, let's go back a bit and talk about you as a rising leader with different assignments that you've had, thinking back to the first time you were a sergeant, senior sergeant in New.

Bruce O'Brien 29:49

Zealand.

Steve Morreale 29:50

So you're there, you've got a new job, you come out of the line, you're now in charge. You're sort of making your bones, you're deciding how you want to lead, how you want to interact with people, and you find your pace right. You made mistakes, I'm sure. Maybe you were a little bit, I'm guessing. We all get this power and this authority and these stripes, and now we're in charge and we want to prove ourselves and sometimes we make some mistakes, some overreaches. But over time, I think we evolve as leaders. Talk about your evolution as a leader. Do you lead differently today than you did 15 years ago?

Leadership Evolution in Policing

Bruce O'Brien 30:33

Oh, definitely, I think, your style of leadership, in the sense that I always try and reflect and mirror the best leaders that I've had. I think what hasn't changed for me is being empathetic to people and understanding that sometimes people make genuine mistakes.

Steve Morreale 30:53

Imagine Bruce O'Brien being empathetic. I just don't see it, Bruce.

Bruce O'Brien 30:58

Because you know we've all made mistakes along the way, even as leaders, and you know to be able to learn from those you need empathetic leadership above you. So that probably hasn't changed at all for me. Probably where you have, I suppose, matured in your leadership journey is you've made mistakes and you've learned from them. I still think to this day the big leadership jump is from constable or officer to sergeant. That is, you know. I still think the sergeant is the most important and influential leadership role in any organization or policing organization. But there is definitely a step change between being an operational leader and then being a strategic leader. There's different pressures, there's different considerations, be it political, financial, those relationships with other agencies that you probably don't have as a frontline supervisor. You know you have your operational relationships with the fire department or paramedics.

Steve Morreale 32:02

So whatever right yeah.

Bruce O'Brien 32:03

Yeah, and then there's the political side of things as well, to be you've got to be aware of as a strategic leader, and I still think that at times policing needs to take a step back from that and understand that you know we have a, we have a role to deliver to the community, and sometimes those politics need to be put aside and you actually deliver the services that we're actually there for, and sometimes we're the only organisation that can do that. Yeah, you've got to be aware of all those things at a strategic level versus an operational, but I still come back to the premise that police leadership fundamentally is delivering good services to the community and holding those account that create harm in communities. I think that's still our fundamental job.

Steve Morreale 32:58

So, as an assistant commissioner, how do you find, let's say, you're back or even here in the UK, in London? How do you find a way to keep your finger on the pulse? How do you find a way to understand what's going on the street today, not 15 years ago when you were on the street? What are the opportunities you look for to figure that out, to understand what's going on and understand the human element of policing?

Bruce O'Brien 33:26

Well, I think it all comes back to visibility and being available to people. You can't lead from an office and I've seen that, unfortunately, people that do try and lead from their office. You've got to be out, you've got to be visible. You've got to make time. You've got to be deliberate about that no-transcript oh yeah, we'll do something about it and do nothing. So for me, you've got to be visible. You've got to stay contemporary, you've got to understand the issues that our colleagues are facing out on the front line and you can never sort of forget the reason why you're there either. And I go back to policing is all about delivering a very good police service to the community, preventing crime and harm, holding those to account that create the harm and holding the organization to very high standards and having that integrity. It hasn't changed since the concept of policing started, really.

Steve Morreale 34:52

Are the people in London understanding you and your accent?

Bruce O'Brien 34:58

At times I have to repeat myself.

Steve Morreale 35:02

Teasing. By the way, I love your accent.

Bruce O'Brien 35:05

I know you are, but New Zealanders have a tendency to speak quickly as well. So do New Yorkers and bostonians right yeah, well, that's good to know.

Steve Morreale 35:15

So here you are, back at the mecca. You earned your master's in applied criminology. Have you been back to cambridge? Have you talked to some people who who you were affiliated with there, and how did that educational opportunity change your perspective in policing?

Bruce O'Brien 35:36

So I do stay in touch with people that I attended Cambridge with, but also some of the people that I still really look up to and reach out to on occasion for advice on different aspects of my career, be it problems that I'm dealing with in the crime space. So you know, larry Sherman, peter Nehru, people like that I've interviewed them both.

Steve Morreale 35:59

I know you know that, yes.

Bruce O'Brien 36:00

I still keep in contact with the both of them how it changed me, I think.

Bruce O'Brien 36:05

Last time we spoke a couple of years back, I think I mentioned that I'd been in the police about 16 years at that point and you know you're very well-rounded from an operational perspective.

Bruce O'Brien 36:14

But what going back to university taught me anyway, there were different ways to think about problems. That critical thinking process, the methodology around problem solving that you could really unpick and understand a problem, I think was probably the best thing that I got out of the Cambridge programme. Things that historically I probably would have done what I'd always been doing, whereas the Cambridge programme gave me a really good framework to work through different problems in a different way but also complement my own experience, because I think that's really important that as police officers we have a vast amount of skills and experience that we've gained from the various roles that we've had. The academic side of things just complement it really, so it gives you another way to consider a problem. I still feel very fortunate that I had that opportunity and it certainly, I think, allowed me to consider and respond to problems differently than I would have if I had not done it.

Bruce O'Brien 37:40

That helped you bring back potential new ideas not just yourself but others who were like-minded to bring some new ideas to consider doing things differently. In the New Zealand police it did my master's that we had a police commissioner it was Mike Bush at the time and one of my supervisors, mark Evans who are both at that stage very open to using research and data to complement and inform decision making at the strategic and the operational level, and they were both heavily invested in setting up the evidence-based policing center, which I was fortunate that I was the inaugural director. So you've got to have that operating environment where the executive of the organization enables that type of approach to happen, because without it it's virtually impossible.

Steve Morreale 38:27

I think you need a champion to give that a shot. If you have a new idea and it seems to me so. This is a question that comes from me. Here you are in europe, in the uk, and you may be there for another year, maybe two years. Your kids are getting a worldly knowledge right, so that's helping them too. They don't have the. If you're on an island, you don't have the blinders on because you understand. Yeah, you've got a bigger view now, and how is that going to help the new zealand police? You're not the only person who's been posted here, but when you go back, how is it going to help you, help the agency continue to grow?

Bruce O'Brien 39:11

well, I think the first thing is those relationships that you've built in various jurisdictions, that you now have a network of colleagues that you can call upon to unblock a problem that might be occurring that you need some assistance on. You've got the ability to reach out and ask them how they're dealing with a particular problem. The ability to reach out and ask them how they're dealing with a particular problem. So I think you've got that aspect. I think that you have gained a new perspective on how good things are. You've seen the best and the worst sometimes of policing and policing practice. So you're able to take those lessons learnt back to your organisation. And for me, on a personal level, I feel very lucky and privileged to be given the opportunity to be based here in London. So there's a piece of me that says I've got a responsibility back to my organisation about doing everything I can to bring all the learning that I've had and those networks back to the organization for us to evolve as a police service.

Cambridge Education and Global Perspective

Steve Morreale 40:19

Yeah, that's always a problem with training or posting. When somebody comes back and somebody doesn't give a damn what you learned and doesn't want to hear like we've got somebody else there, we don't have to do it. It's those open-minded people and especially your commissioner now who was at Interpol who understands the benefit of those relationships, I would think, and so that's a value added in my mind. Let's talk about this post. You show up, you're elated, you're excited you got selected. You're coming to the UK excited, you got selected. You're coming to the UK and you've got a small team who's already preceded you. They've got some information. What does Big Shot Bruce do when he shows up to help people understand? I don't know at all. I need you to help me understand the job so I can help you do the job and help our organization. Tell me what your first meetings were like as the new leader.

Bruce O'Brien 41:20

Well, I think the first thing is to sit and listen, because you are coming into a new environment that you don't have those natural relationships, to sit and listen and understand the structure, who those relationships are with and understand their priorities as well. But for me, I was quite fortunate in the sense that I'd already had a lot of networks up here because of my study. So I was quite fortunate in that sense and I sort of understood how the UK system worked from my time here as well. So I was quite fortunate in that sense and I sort of understood how the UK system worked from my time here as well. So I was quite fortunate to be able to sort of hit the ground running.

Bruce O'Brien 42:00

But, like any role, I think the most important thing is to sit back, understand the role, understand those people that you're going to be working with, understand the priorities. I think is really really important, not only from our organisation's perspective on what our priorities are, but what our partners' priorities are, and you can sort of see those mutually beneficial opportunities that will exist to work closer together. And to enhance that, I suppose the approach that I've always taken is to not rush in. You don't know everything. That's really important. Sit back and work with all your colleagues that you're going to be working with and, from a New Zealand perspective, we work closely with a number of other New Zealand government agencies that are based here in London as well, so that's really important. We support each other depending on what the priority is, so it's a great team up here. That's great to hear.

Steve Morreale 42:57

So what do you do to keep up to date? What are you reading? What keeps you on track?

Bruce O'Brien 43:09

Well, I have converted to audio books, which I find I use a lot on the tube to and from home, so I listen to a lot of audio books Podcasts. I still listen to a lot of podcasts, which I find really interesting.

Steve Morreale 43:26

Are you one of the listeners from down under once in a while?

Bruce O'Brien 43:29

Yeah, I certainly listen to you, steve, thank you. Thank you Once in a while, I see.

Steve Morreale 43:33

Oceana on there, Like who the hell's listening down there?

Bruce O'Brien 43:37

Yeah, so, and I'm fortunate in this role as well I get to go to a lot of conferences, so you do pick up both from a policing perspective. But we have a lot of private partners that attend conferences as well, so it's a combination of both. From a reading perspective, you know you're on different mailing lists, so I get you know, be it think tanks or university or alumni networks that are constantly putting out new research, so, but it's finding the time to sort of put it all together, and sometimes I find myself putting an article into ChatGP and get it to summarize it for me. Me too, me too, so that's really good. So there's a range of different ways that I sort of take in information, but it's all about linking it back to the organization's priorities as well, outside of my wider interests in policing understanding what our commissioners' priorities are and the organization's priorities as well, outside of my wider interests in policing understanding what our commissioner's priorities are and the organization's priorities are, and looking for those opportunities to see what's out there.

Steve Morreale 44:42

That's great. So, as we begin to wind down, what are you doing while you're there to take advantage of being in a different country, especially with the family? Are you taking in the sights? Are you taking in some of the travel? Are you getting around? Are you taking advantage? I know that when I lived both in Italy and I lived in Ireland every weekend was doing something. So are you taking advantage with your family?

Bruce O'Brien 45:10

Oh, definitely Fortunate from a work perspective. I travel for work, but as a family we've done travel as well. From a cultural perspective, I suppose football is like a religion in the UK.

Steve Morreale 45:24

What football the one that we play or the one that you play?

Bruce O'Brien 45:28

The round ball the original one. So and my my seven-year-old son, um, has become obsessed with football, so he's he's playing it and that's been a really good opportunity, because rugby's the big sport back in new zealand, but he's fallen in love with football and everything's about football, so that's been fantastic. But the uk itself you know there's some amazing places to visit here, so we've been quite deliberate about that. We've got a car here so we travel a lot on the weekends to actually have a look around the UK and take in everything it offers here.

Steve Morreale 46:04

Yeah, that's great, great experience, and you're creating memories that you could never do anywhere else, which I think is great. I want to ask about the role of a leader from your perspective, and my take on it is I say it, it's all on you, but it's not about you that once you become a true leader not a manager, but a true leader in my mind part of your responsibility is to mentor others and develop others for the future. Do you agree with that?

Bruce O'Brien 46:40

Oh, 100%, and I think that's part of that maturity piece as you become a leader, understanding that is a significant part of your role. So, doing your day-to-day job, you've already proven that you can do that because you've got to that position. But when you actually look at what you want to leave behind when you move on or finish up, is that succession planning. And I don't know if we always get that right. I always think about those people that have had reporting to me and have subsequently gone on and had really successful careers, which is fantastic. But you've got to be really deliberate about it and you've got to find the time to do it.

Bruce O'Brien 47:22

And you do sometimes look at organizations that get to a point where they need to appoint a senior leader to either run the organization or the deputies or the assistant commissioners, and sometimes that succession planning hasn't been done. And you know it's really disappointing when you see a role being advertised and only one or maybe two people apply for it. You should be, especially for the head of a police organisation. You would like to think that you'd get a good range of people applying with a whole range of different backgrounds and skill sets, that you can appoint the best person for that role and I know it's an ongoing challenge, but I think you have to be really deliberate and you have to make time for it and identify people and work with them and support them to have that wide ranging backgrounds and experience that will allow them to get to where they want to go in their career.

Steve Morreale 48:19

And to me I think that's important. I had an interview with somebody who was a police chief, who was a coach for 30 years on a Division.

Personal Growth and Family Experience

Steve Morreale 48:27

I basketball team and the first question I asked him was how do we better understand your approach as a chief? Do you use your coaching abilities? Yes, was the answer. But number two, what is the lineage you've left behind? And you understand what I'm saying. In other words, who have you left in your wake that was watching you, was mentored by you, was helped by you, was pushed by you, that basically replaced you, because we all have a shelf life right, and I think you've addressed that and I'm sure that you've left many in your wake. One last question what skills do you think future leaders in policing need that are not there now? What are the things that you have learned, that have become important in your leadership journey, that others need to take advantage of and to understand?

Bruce O'Brien 49:26

I think the big one at the moment is understanding technology, because it is moving at such a quick pace that there's going to be skills within the organization that we're going to require. So I think there's going to be a requirement for leaders, now and into the future, to have an understanding of the technologies that are out there and the skills that we will need to bring into the organization to be able to deliver that technology to the organization for us then to deliver the service that we need to do for communities. So technology is a big one. We're going to have to be very quick to adopt different parts of technology, be it large language models, be it facial recognition, you know, even drone capability.

Steve Morreale 50:18

Oh my goodness, yes, yes, body worn camera reviews and all that stuff, right.

Bruce O'Brien 50:22

Yeah, all of that stuff and you can't be across all of that because a lot of it is very specialist skills that are going to be required, but being aware of that is going to be critically important. So I think it's a responsibility on leaders to be across technology and have an understanding of what it can do for the organisation, and then looking at the skills that we're going to need and there's going to be a shortage of skills as well, because everybody's going to be after the same sets of skills, especially within government organisations as well. So, yeah, it's going to be a challenge, but there's a lot of really good private companies out there at the moment that are willing to collaborate and work with law enforcement on this. So, yeah, it's exciting and it's a massive opportunity.

Steve Morreale 51:07

I think about the deep web, which we haven't even touched. But imagine not knowing what the deep web was, because I didn't. But I will say that, using AI and if I could share this with others who are listening, if I'm working out I'm watching a YouTube video and I'm really not watching does this offer something to me? And then I will grab that video link and I will put it in and ask for a summary and that's how I can understand. What are the lessons here? But what I'm realizing is and many people don't understand that you can begin to ask and it's all about prompt engineering. You can begin to ask what do you need to know?

Steve Morreale 51:45

I'm this, I'm a police chief, I'm this and I need to do this. What do you need to know from me? This is almost interrogating AI. What do you need to know from me to give me the best output? And it will come up with a number of questions to say well, I'd like to know this and this and this and this. I mean it's instantaneous. You understand what I'm saying and by having AI interrogate you and giving it that information, it gives you better output. So that's one way to understand. It can help me understand what AI is, what an AI agent is, what the dark web is. All of those kinds of things can help us learn quicker. What's your take on that?

Bruce O'Brien 52:27

Yeah, I think you're right and I think there's so many use cases and opportunities out there for policing. But I think the challenge is being really clear on what your priorities are, because you could be going down all sorts of areas.

Steve Morreale 52:44

We go into a rabbit hole. Yes, I'm sure you've been stuck on AI for a long time. It's like when Google first came out like oh my God, look at this and you're down on page 12, 12, and this thing does all of that for you almost instantaneously.

Bruce O'Brien 52:58

Yeah, exactly. So I think sticking to the priorities of the organization, sticking to the priority of the community, are really important, and being quite selective and deliberate about that as well because I say it's such a wide, wide area and you could certainly get lost pretty quickly and you could waste a lot of money. Police has got finite budgets as well, so you've got to be very, very careful on what you're investing in is really important. The other thing, steve, I just touched on you talked about the important piece of what we need for police leaders in the future. I still think making sure that we are recruiting and training the right people is so important for policing and where you're seeing where people have let themselves down within organisations, I still come back to that recruiting piece making sure that we're recruiting the right people at the front end that have values that we all want integrity, professionalism, all of that sort of thing. So I think we can't lose sight of that, because technology can't replace those things.

Steve Morreale 54:05

No not at three o'clock in the morning, with a call for help.

Bruce O'Brien 54:09

No, exactly the other thing that I just wanted to touch on alongside, you know, being across technology is making sure that we're still being very true to the values of the organization.

Future Leadership Skills in Policing

Steve Morreale 54:20

Meet the mission and provide the service people expect Exactly. That's a great way to end. We've been talking to Bruce O'Brien, a New Zealander, in London serving as the senior liaison for the UK for Middle East and for Africa, and so I really appreciate you coming on a second time. It's very interesting to see what you're doing and how you continue to help personally grow and help New Zealand police and establish relationships in those countries you're at. So thank you so much. Bruce you have the last word.

Bruce O'Brien 54:56

Well, thank you, stephen, and fantastic to catch up again. Looking forward to your book coming out as well. I think that would be fantastic.

Intro-Outro 55:03

We're in it.

Steve Morreale 55:04

And I may just say listen, I may just sound smarter than you are, so you owe me for that, my friend.

Bruce O'Brien 55:11

That wouldn't have been hard to do, steve. Thanks very much. Keep up the great work and, like I say, I really I love listening to uh your guests and hearing about their policing journey as well. It's fantastic listen so thanks again.

Steve Morreale 55:23

Thank you, I love doing it. I just hope to see you in a few months in your new hometown and have a cup of coffee, or maybe over there it'll be tea. You tell me what, what or maybe something a little stronger who knows Bruce.

Steve Morreale 55:36

Something with bubbles in it?

Steve Morreale 55:37

That's a good one. Thanks very much. That's another episode of the Cop Talk podcast. In the can Appreciate hearing from my New Zealand friend, bruce O'Brien, assistant commissioner and now in a post in London. Thanks very much to everybody. Keep listening. Can't believe there's people from 96 countries and 3,300 cities and towns. We're approaching 160 episodes. So keep listening and let me know if there's somebody. I'm missing somebody, you think, who is innovative, a thought leader and creative in delivering police services to talk to.

Steve Morreale 56:11

Thanks very much. Stay safe, keep your people safe. Have a good night.

Intro-Outro 56:17

Please tune into the CopDoc podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.