Dr. Heather Glogolich, Captain, NJ Instititue of Technology Police

The CopDoc Podcast - Season 9 - Episode 169

EPISODE SUMMARY:

Steve Morreale sits down with Captain Dr. Heather Glogolich of the NJIT Police Department in Newark, New Jersey, for a candid, deeply personal, and professionally rich conversation about what it means to lead in policing today. Heather brings more than 22 years of law enforcement experience, an EdD focusing on domestic violence and higher education, and a hard-won perspective on what it takes not just to survive in a male-dominated profession, but to thrive in it and bring others along.

Heather speaks openly about her journey from the Morris County Sheriff's Office to patrol officer, lieutenant, and now captain, including having to sue her agency to secure a promotion she had earned. Rather than letting that experience define her bitterness, she channeled it into a commitment to mentorship and transformational leadership. Her story is one of accountability, growth, and choosing to lead with love, even when the institution made that difficult.

The conversation ranges widely, from the real reasons women remain underrepresented in law enforcement leadership, to the operational risks of empathy, to why she believes the first day on the job should include leadership training. Heather challenges comfortable assumptions, pushes back thoughtfully on conventional DEI narratives, and delivers a message that will resonate with anyone trying to grow as a leader, regardless of rank, gender, or years on the job.

KEY TOPICS DISCUSSED:

• How Heather's path from the Morris County Sheriff's Office to NJIT shaped her leadership philosophy
• Women in policing leadership, the 30x30 initiative, and the real reasons representation remains low
• Balancing being a great cop and a great parent without sacrificing either
• Her personal experience as a survivor of domestic violence and how that shaped her doctoral research
• The difference between sympathy and empathy, and why empathetic policing carries operational risk
• Suing her agency to earn a promotion and what she did with the chip on her shoulder
• Culture change within your sphere of control when you cannot change the whole organization
• "Lead with love," servant leadership, and transformational leadership in practice
• Why the first day on the job should include leadership training
• How to mentor others while still seeking mentorship yourself, including her work with Simon Sinek's curve.org

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com 

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Transcript

Intro/Outro 0:00

Welcome to The Cop Doc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The CopDoc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing, communities, academia, and other government agencies. And now, please join Dr. Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on the Cop Doc Podcast.

Steve Morreale 0:28

Hey everybody, back at it. Steve Morreale coming to you from South Carolina, and we're heading to the Garden State, New Jersey. And we're going to talk to Captain Heather Glogolich. And she is also Dr. Glogolich. So two cop docs talking together. So let me get started. Heather, welcome, first of all. Glad to have you. And this came from me watching you from afar because you're not afraid to post what's going on in your life and how you're trying to help others on LinkedIn. But also, I got something. It's not unusual for me to say. If you know somebody I should be talking to, get in touch with me. And I got an email from somebody who has been impacted by you. And I got on the phone with her and she said, You've got to talk to Heather. And I said, No, I don't. And then she said, Yes, you do. So here we are. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Tell us about how how long you've been in policing, what you've been doing in policing, where you are now.

Heather Glogolich 1:26

I have been in policing a little over 22 years. I started at the ripe old age of 23 with no knowledge of what police work was because no one in my family really was in any kind of first responder capacity. And when I took a criminology class in high school, I kind of just fell in love with that I started at the age of 23, went through the police academy, was hired by the sheriff's office. I had absolutely no knowledge of what law enforcement really involved because no one in my family had ever been in anything first responder related. You know, my mom was a stay-at-home mom that worked jobs at home. And my dad owned an auto shop, an auto repair shop. Walking into this life was interesting, especially considering I had no idea where I was going and what I was doing and what I was really interested in as far as law enforcement.

Steve Morreale 2:14

You ended up starting in New Jersey. So tell us about that. Who hired you first? What did you do for a while? And what was your path as you moved towards it? Because now you're a captain at NGIT in Newark. But tell us about that transition.

Heather Glogolich 2:29

So I was probably like a lot of people and just got hired as like wherever I could get hired first. And that was the Morris County Sheriff's Office. And they put me through the police academy. And when I graduated in June of 2004, I started out with courts and transports. And while I was super excited to be in law enforcement, I felt as though I had a bigger purpose that wasn't being fulfilled. I was seeing the side of law enforcement where it was more reactive and the follow-up, and it wasn't necessarily the proactive boots on the ground aspects of what I felt I wanted to contribute to law enforcement. So I was there about a year and I transferred out and I went to Morristownship Police Department, where I started as a patrol officer and moved my way up in the ranks. And I resigned in August of 2023 as a lieutenant in the patrol division of Morris Township Police Department. I was offered the job at NGIT by the chief to come in and transfer in as a captain in charge of patrol and some other various units that we have here. And I jumped at the opportunity, not because there was a pay increase, because there wasn't, but there was obviously a status change. However, I was really going to be given the opportunity to make the change within an agency that I had always wanted proactive, transformational leadership on every level to try and give back more to this profession than I was ever given.

Steve Morreale 3:54

So let's talk about that. I've said on this podcast so many times that I've been at this since 1970. And when I first jumped in, even in the military when I was in the Army, we were the first company to allow women to become police officers in peace, which was very unusual. And it was very uncomfortable. And I had sisters and now I have three daughters. And so I watched that and I came as I came out, they were beginning back home in Massachusetts to allow women not to be matrons, but to actually be police officers. And there was tremendous resistance. So I have lived through what you have lived through, although not in the same way by any means. But clearly there there is this this started as a male-dominated profession, and you've experienced some of that. So how did that impact you? How did you have to prove yourself? How did you have to how did you survive?

Heather Glogolich 4:48

You know, this question has so many layers to it.

Steve Morreale 4:51

Tendency to ask many multiple layers of questions. So I apologize for that.

Heather Glogolich 4:57

Don't because as I've grown into who I am, my perception has changed, my reality has changed. And there can be a couple different things that are true, depending on the circle that you're in, the agency that you're part of, the situation that you're a part of, what your role is within an agency. So I think on my level, for me, I mean, this is still a male-dominated profession, right? Nationally, we are about 12 to 14% as far as representation in law enforcement. And the leadership level, that's really only about four to five percent of women that represent a leadership role. And when we say leadership role, I believe universally the best way to say that is sergeant and above.

Steve Morreale 5:32

Yes.

Heather Glogolich 5:32

Some other some agencies have corporals, some don't have sergeants. It just, I'm just kind of using the average of what is utilized across, you know, the nation. And I always just push really hard to be one of the guys. That was my goal. I never wanted to be seen as different just because of my gender. And I do feel as though I constantly had to prove myself, but not because of the way the men that I worked alongside made me feel. It was because of the rhetoric about how women weren't strong enough, women were too emotional, women weren't tactical enough. And there were other issues that came along with it. And now listen, I'm a tall girl, I'm five, nine, I'm a bigger girl, I'm strong, I'm taller than most of the, not most of the men, but a good amount of men. So it wasn't my stature that was an issue. It was my experience. It was my own personal beliefs, my own life experiences that came in. And I think that's where policing gets it wrong. We don't develop the person and their strengths. We try to develop these checkboxed cops that all fit a mold. And so as women, we start to have this narrative in our head about what we aren't instead of showing what we are and what we can bring. And yeah, maybe we are emotional. Well, maybe that helps lead to more empathetic policing. And maybe the way that we respond in the way that we overanalyze things because of how we are brought up and and and who we are, both biologically, foundationally, emotionally, all contributes to less use of force. Or the people that we work alongside having the ability to feel as though they can come to me, or us as women, in a resiliency aspect without judgment. So there are all these beautiful aspects of every single person that come into this profession. And for me, I think the biggest difference is really wanting to be a mom and being a cop and being a cop and being made to feel like you couldn't do both well, that you had to pick one over the other. That if you chose to be a great mom, that your law enforcement career would suffer. And if you chose to be a great cop, that your home life and being a mom would suffer. And I don't think that it's the same with men for the pure reason of men still get to decide what their priorities are and how it comes across, but they don't have to worry about nine months of pregnancy where they're off the road potentially, not involved in the situations where people are getting awards and commendations and the things that all help you get promoted and seen and worry about that sick times. That's really for me been the biggest foundational issue and difference between men and women on this job as far as what separates us and where the real issues lie.

Steve Morreale 8:02

So when you said empathy, I wrote a few words down. I'll tell you what they were nurturing, caring, multitasking, and detail-oriented. I think women have an awful lot of those things. So empathy becomes important. Humility and vulnerability are things I'm talking to leaders about now and how they have to show their that side of them. And I'll say this I just I just came from a command training where I spent the day with 60 different from chiefs to to to lieutenants. And there were, I think, five women in there. But I've walked into rooms where there's none. And it pisses me off. It pisses me off. I really I mean that sincerely. And I'll kind of chastise people to say, where are the women? And here's what I get a lot is yeah, well, it's got to be the right woman. Oh, okay. So you don't have a wife, you don't have a daughter, you don't have an aunt, you don't have a sister. What do you mean, the right woman? What's your job, gentlemen, in finding people who have leadership opportunity and abilities and potential and helping them along, just like somebody helped you? And then it begins to soften them a little bit when I say that. Tell me your reaction to that, me sort of chastising a group of people where I'm trying to get them to think broader, differently, think about leadership future, what that means, helping others.

Heather Glogolich 9:18

So, unpopular opinion, that is a little bit against what you just said. Granted, I hate when they say we have to find the right woman. Well, do you say that about the right man? Let's take the gender out of it. I really do believe we should take the gender out of it. But, you know, everybody is so against the term DEI. When we really talk about what that means, it's about diversity, right? Say the word out loud. It's about equity. And don't we all want to be treated equitable? I mean, that's the foundation of what we all want. We want to treat people equitably and we want to be treated equitably. And inclusivity. I mean, why wouldn't you want to be included? So listen, I walk in a room and I'm usually one of the only females in there, especially when it comes at the leadership level. And I actually don't get pissed off because so many people foundationally want to blame it on the men that have come before us. And yes, there is some truth about them keeping us out of the room because they're concerned regardless of what that might be, whether it's they don't want to hear our voice, they're worried that we're gonna push envelopes that they're not used to having to open. It could be a myriad of reasons. But for me, we have this discussion all the time on why do we still only have 14% representation of women? And I think what a lot of people need to understand is that as you move higher up, your ability to be home is shortened. There's a lot of mom guilt that comes along with that. So it isn't always just about leaders not looking for women to be in the room that represent that aspect of leadership. It's about not wanting to balance the way that men kind of naturally gravitate to that balance of being like, listen, if I had a wife at home and I say that with uh humility, like, man, I feel like my husband and I would be living the dream, right? Like it is a very hard balance one to have two working parents, especially both in the first responder network, and to be at everything. So you've got line officers that say, hey, listen, why move up and be a junior supervisor and go back to shift work and go back to this? More opportunities to maybe stay as a school resource officer and work Monday through Friday and have off when my kids do, or be that senior patrol officer because I've been there, or senior sheriff's officer and be able to maintain my holidays off, my weekends off, the better shift.

Steve Morreale 11:21

Yes, and this plays a big role in that, right?

Heather Glogolich 11:24

Yeah.

Steve Morreale 11:25

Because as soon as you, as soon as you raise your hand to become a sergeant, captain, lieutenant, whatever it might be, you're at the back of the bus. You're starting over.

Heather Glogolich 11:32

Yeah, and you know what? When you're in charge of things at home, sometimes you want to come to work and only be in charge of you. And this is a conversation I have with a lot of people in regards to whether or not they should promote, because I'll see something in them and they'll be like, Cap, thank you, but that's not where I'm at. I am not willing. And that's this newer generation. And honestly, there are so many people that will sit here and they will chastise this newer generation of police officers, like the why generation. But man, they have this ability to really disengage from work and have that outside life and balance things better and not hold on to the guilt of not having to be the best at this job. They do their best without having to be the best because they make their priorities about their home life and their social life and their connection outside of the police world. So there's this envy that I have for them in that aspect.

Steve Morreale 12:21

So I I want to ask a couple of questions. And we're talking to Heather Gloglich, and she is a captain doctor. She is a captain of the New Jersey Institute of Technology Police Department in Newark. And uh, you went back to school as I did for a doctorate. Why?

Heather Glogolich 12:40

Multiple reasons. First, my first husband was not a good man, and very much throughout our very short-lived marriage made me feel as though I did not need to advance and that I should hold myself back and make sacrifices personally in order to be a part of the family. So when I went back to get just my bachelor's degree, it was kind of like to do it in his face, which is, you know, I was young and that was the motivation I needed, and it was enough. But then when I started, I realized, man, I really love this. I'll go back for my master's. I'm only a few credits away from having a secondary master's, so I'll do that. And then I was like, I got four kids and they're expensive. And I really love the idea of instruction and teaching. And I found out that being able to work at a university, which I thought was very much in my wheelhouse as far as that generation of students where they're adults and they're understanding consequences and really starting to get in that phase of transition of taking some self-accountability for their life and their choices and their future, really wanted to be a part of that. And so, in order to do that, you kind of have to have your doctorate. So, twofold, I wanted to have that opportunity, but I really knew that working at a higher ed institution would allow me the opportunity to send my kids to college for free. So it was my plan B because I know more than most, and maybe not more than most, but I think I had articulated it more than others out loud that this job is very much like a marriage and you're gonna get divorced someday. And you don't always get to choose when that divorce happens. So I just I wanted to be prepared with a plan B in case, you know, it was taken away from me because you just never know what's going to happen.

Steve Morreale 14:09

So that's interesting. And so as you're as you're engaged in in this area of study, and I know that you work, your work and your dissertation had to do with domestic violence. What drew you to that? The dissertation topic?

Heather Glogolich 14:22

Topic. So I am a survivor of domestic violence, a pretty horrific incident of domestic violence. And I I talk about it publicly. But when I was going through it, I felt as though no one else would understand me because I wasn't your quote unquote, if for anybody who can't see what I'm doing, I'm like air quoting typical victim, right? We always put these bias and these prejudices on what we believe based on our own experience. I'm not saying those in negative terms, those two words. I'm just saying that's part of who we are. We build those things. And for me, I just I came from a good home. I am somebody who seems very strong, very, very strong-willed, somebody who wouldn't be nobody, nobody looks at me and thinks, wow, how did she let that happen to her? Or they maybe they do think that because of who who I portray myself.

Steve Morreale 15:04

So I'm watching a little bit of emotion come out of you as you're telling me because it's hurtful. I can see that. And and I can hear it in your voice. But so you're telling me and us that this domestic violence that you experienced happened while you were in policing?

Heather Glogolich 15:19

Happened in two, well, it happened throughout my marriage. We got married in 2006 and ended in October of 2008. And he ended up getting arrested for domestic violence, and he was also a police officer.

Steve Morreale 15:31

Wow. Okay. So having had that experience and come through it, which is very important, but come through it and be able to talk about it publicly, then you then you said, hey, maybe policing is not doing as good a job at at dealing with victims of domestic violence. I want to study that. And that's as I read a little bit about you, that seems to be what what you did. And I don't want to linger on that. This it's it's important, but but what I what I want to know is how it was. I presume that as you got into it, it was cathartic.

Heather Glogolich 16:03

Using it as an as a mode of being cathartic, that's a better way to say it. I think for me, I saw a really big disconnect. Working in Morris Township, we had St. Elizabeth's University there, and we worked in a lot of schools. And with the Cleary Act in Title IX and holding people accountable, that might not be that that way. But I feel as though there's a disconnect between law enforcement and higher ed because, you know, there are rights and there are privacy concerns and confidentiality, and then there are cleary stats. And so there is a different process in higher ed regarding how domestic violence is not just educated upon, but also reported. And so, because there isn't this education and this partnership when it comes to domestic violence, I feel as though they're some of the most vulnerable populations when it comes to domestic violence. This is where people are losing, you know, safety net of being at home. They're going out on their own. They may not have seen it at home as far as domestic violence, or maybe they did. They're getting into patterns of dating. There is sexual assault that's higher on college campuses, starting to drink and potentially do drugs and have there's all these things that come into play that could promote an environment where domestic violence could occur. And not a lot of people bring recognition to it enough. So, what I wanted to do through my dissertation was try to find a way to connect both entities, the higher ed and the law enforcement, on a way that was not argumentative. It was more of an enhanced partnership to prevent and then respond to it in a way that would help the college campus for years to come.

Steve Morreale 17:31

And to call it what it is rather than to deflect and downgrade.

Heather Glogolich 17:35

Yeah.

Steve Morreale 17:35

I know happens an awful lot. I know I'm on campus myself. So let's move forward. You're engaged in presentations. Clearly, the the young woman who reached out to me was impressed by what you had to say. It seems to me that you see yourself as a mentor for others where people are interested in moving up. But you're being realistic about what it means when you move up and what it will take from you when you move up into leadership positions. So talk about that. Talk about how you gravitated towards that willingness to help others.

Heather Glogolich 18:13

Most of my mentors were men and they were great men, but I would have loved to have a female mentor who could have navigated some of the or helped me navigate some of the struggles that I went through, especially when it came to promoting and feeling as though I was an island. I ended up having to sue Morris Township in order to get promoted because I was dropped from second or third down to the bottom of the list. And I was protected under family leave and I had used sick time to have babies. And there were just, there was nothing in my record that should have prevented me, right? There weren't, you know, IA write-ups. There, I had commendations and awards and all of these things. And I worked my butt off for that promotions. You know, that was a tough time for me. And in my own mind, I was like, man, I don't want everybody to look at me and think that I only got promoted one because they felt that they shouldn't promote the first female ever and promote that. Because that's what ended up happening. They took the lawsuit after, and then me getting promoted, and they were like, let's talk about how you're the first female ever to get promoted. I'm like, please don't do that. Because I feel like at the time I felt as though it kind of cut my credibility down that people would be like, Oh, they only promoted her because she's a female.

Steve Morreale 19:18

You're the token. Right. Yeah. And then the other one was, well, she only got it because she sued. So I had a big old chip on my shoulder when I got promoted until I realized that I had a bigger responsibility to those that were, you know, behind me in my footsteps that could promote later. I wanted people to see that there was a possibility. So I took on the role of, you know, I'm an informal mentor. I'm really just a friend. I'm somebody that people can lean on if they have questions. And I don't have all the answers, but you know, I get it a lot. And it gets to the point where it gets frustrating because people are like, I just don't know how you do it all. And I'm like, I just do it. Like I make a choice for myself in order to fill up my cup because I'm always filling in others. I wake up at 4:15 in the morning and I go to the gym at five. That's for me. So I don't feel guilty about missing out on time at home when I'm not missing out at work. It just makes me a better person throughout the day if I get that in. So I try to promote to women that you can be both a great mom and a great cop and dads too, and that you shouldn't feel guilty about utilizing time that you're entitled to, and that people are gonna have their opinions about you, but their opinions are not gonna pay your bills. And so look for that balance in your life and whatever that looks like, it does not have to be the same as anybody else's. Because at the end of the day, you really are just a badge number. And your impact is so much more than that one spot on a roster of a police department. It's the way you engage with your family, it's the way you engage with people. It's the people that reach out to a host of a podcast and say you're the person that I should be spoken to. You know, people are gonna remember how you left them feeling, not not necessarily who you were and what you did. Was there a moment where you said enough? I don't want to do policing anymore.

Heather Glogolich 20:54

Oh my gosh, there are millions of moments. Like try yesterday. Yeah, no, that's that's how do you overcome that?

Steve Morreale 21:01

How do you overcome that? Because you're still hanging in there.

Heather Glogolich 21:03

That's such a great question. I have to dig in. It's a lot of self-reflection, self-awareness, personal growth, but you know, it's like a golf game for those of you who golf. You could have 17 really horrible holes, and then you get one really beautiful drive and it brings you right back. It's, you know, I filled my life with faith lately and I see the impact that my children have because of the things that I do. You know, they realize the sacrifices we make as a team. You know, I have people reach out in moments that maybe I'm feeling weak, and maybe that's God, maybe that's the universe, maybe it's a higher power, maybe it's all of the things that I put into the universe that are coming back. There are days that I'm having a bad day, and all of a sudden someone will reach out and be like, Hey, I just wanted you to know that I was thinking about you and thank you for this. And you know, I see the purpose and there is a lot of sacrifice, but it's worth it. And I'll make it to the end. I know exactly when that end date is. It is January 1st, 2030, unless something happens before then. And it's close and I'm almost there. And I just have to have faith in all of the things that I'm doing right. Again, we we don't work a job or a career where it's all great. And the higher up you get, the bigger target you are sometimes, the more exhausted you are because taking care of your people matters. And there isn't a night that I don't go to bed and I don't pray for my team and I don't worry about them as individuals and I don't worry about their safety and their family's safety. And it's like having a, you know, an 85-member family at work on top of my family at home and my friends. So the exhaustion gets to you, but I just keep doing things for me and for my family that matter. And I I see the light at the tunnel and I know that I'll be in a good place to step away, which I can't say for a lot of people.

Steve Morreale 22:42

What is on your work bucket list? What do you want to accomplish that you haven't been able to yet?

Heather Glogolich 22:47

I want to attend the FBI National Academy and I will get to do so this July.

Steve Morreale 22:52

Great. That'll be a change, and then you'll be on away for 10 weeks. But it is a great, it's a transformational opportunity for you. So that's that's wonderful. I'm glad for it. Thank you. What's harder for Heather, proving you belong or helping others belong?

Heather Glogolich 23:05

Helping others feel as though they belong by far. I know I belong. That's that's a self-awareness. That's me not, that's growth.

Steve Morreale 23:12

It's a lot of growth because I You probably feel you belong because you've you've you've had the proven track record, regardless, right?

Heather Glogolich 23:19

I've always felt like I belong in police work. And no matter what anybody else thought, no matter what level I was at, that's something that I really held on to. Like I belong here. I know what I'm doing. I know my why. I've always had a very, very strong why my entire career. And once I was a survivor of domestic violence, it became even bigger. The criminal justice system is very much a justice system for criminals. And I knew that I needed to be there for other people to make them see that law enforcement is a positive profession that can really enhance people's lives and the safety of others. But there are so many people that want to be a part of this profession and don't have that why. So I think convincing people that they need a bigger why is probably harder than me knowing my why.

Steve Morreale 24:00

So we're talking to Heather Glogolich, and she is at NJIT in Newark, New Jersey. You just said something and it goes back to something you said earlier: empathy. Can empathy ever become an operational risk in policing?

Heather Glogolich 24:14

Oh, it 100% is an operational risk if you do it the right way.

Steve Morreale 24:17

Tell me what that means.

Heather Glogolich 24:18

We focus so much on this buzzword resiliency, but I don't think we do enough of actually making people have the opportunity to be resilient. And this career lacks that opportunity, especially for people at a higher level, or those that are the ones that are the resiliency police officers or the people who everybody turns to. How about our ICAC, which is for those of you who don't know what that is, that's internet crimes against children, or our sex crimes detectives, or the domestic violence liaisons, we're taking on a lot of people's trauma all the time, regardless of it being secondary. And that's not even including all the things that we see primarily when we're the ones that are the first responders. So that empathetic approach to policing, I mean, there's a difference between sympathy and empathy, right? So say there's somebody listening who likes cats. I'm a dog person. It's just I gravitate towards dogs. It's not that I don't appreciate cats, but I just don't have them. I don't like litter boxes. But if somebody came to me and they were sad one day and I was like, hey, man, what's going on? And they're like, oh man, my cat is not doing well. And I was just like, oh man, I'm sorry. Let me know what you can do. That's like an example of sympathy, kind of just letting them know that you could be there. But that empathy would me be turning around and trying to feel how I would feel if it was my dog. And it's taking that on. And it's it's really bringing that emotion into who you are as a person and feeling it, which has an entire impact on your sympathetic nerve system, how your brain acts and reacts, all of the emotions, all of the things of us being hyper-vigilant all the time. That does so much against our system. So yeah, empathetic, empathetic policing, 100% is a hazard of this job. And that's why we need to do even more to promote what actual resiliency is, not just use the buzz term so people feel okay, maybe coming forward if and when they're having a problem. We need to be more proactive in helping people work on it right now.

Steve Morreale 26:06

So I want to talk about culture, the culture of police organizations, and clearly it's different and from one place to the other. And I do believe that one person, two people, three people at the top can impact culture, one way or the other. Right, one way or the other. But if culture stays the same, what impact it does it have with women in the workforce unless there's some market change towards culture, towards the acceptance of women, the the acceptance of the blend of men and women on the job. Tell me how you react to that.

Heather Glogolich 26:37

There's not a clear-cut answer for that, because again, what is the culture? And that very much depends on what part of the country you live in or work in. So I feel like New Jersey is a very forward-pushing state, forward-looking, inspiring, as far as giving women the opportunity. I I don't believe that the way to change the culture is to drop standards. I'm very anti-that, especially when it comes to physical standards. A criminal is not going to be like, she's a female, so I'm not gonna go as hard on her in order to get away. That gender needs to be taken out of it as far as physical requirements. You know, most people will argue that there are a couple people that can change the culture and that they're the ones that are important. The people at the top are the ones that are really the driving force in that. And I would argue against that. Culture isn't just about an organizational whole, it's about the individual team as well. And so I really put the culture within our agency, I put the accountability in regards to the culture in our agency on every single member of this agency. If we've got people that don't feel comfortable being here because of their gender or potentially other identifying characteristics that they possess or that they I self-identify as, that isn't an agency-wide culture issue. That's an individual, individually based issue and a team issue and a cohesion issue and a socialization issue. But yeah, I mean, I worked at in Morris Township when we had a leader or two in there that I did not see eye to eye on in regards to how they ran that agency and the culture that they produced. It was very fear-based. Everybody's very worried about getting in trouble instead of feeling supported like they should have. And so what I took on as a leader of my team, my squad, was like, yeah, there are things that we have to do in regards to the way this leader is running the culture. But within our team, who we are, how we show up for each other, we're in charge of that culture. I don't care what your religion is, I don't care what your culture is, I don't care what your gender is, I care about none of that. I care about the person you are and how you interact and react with the people that you spend more time with than your family. So when we see culture change and specifically regarding gender, there are a lot of things that can take place. And New Jersey Women in Law Enforcement is an organization that I'm very proud to be the president of. And we push for that culture change on a daily basis. But I get a lot of pushback, especially from these keyboard warriors on social media, that are like, why do you need an all-women's conference? Why didn't why do you need an all-women's defensive tactics training day? And I have a really good answer for that. We don't run an all-women's conference. We, as a women-based organization, run a conference that is inclusive of all people that anybody can attend. We just tend to have a large amount of women come. And the reason we are holding an all-female cadre of instructors and an all-female attendees for 120 women to get certified in defensive tactics in New Jersey is because in that room, different conversations can be had. However, we're not promoting that that is the only kind of training we should have. It is one arena or it is one room in an arena where everybody should be training every way. It's not us, New Jersey women in law enforcement, that make the gender the issue. It's the people who constantly will be like, oh, look at that female cop instead of that cop. You never see in the headlines that male cop did this. It's always a female cop, or we'll even take it one step further when it's race, right? When it's one race against another race. It's always the other people that are bringing in that dynamic when we're just looking to be equitable in everything and show up, but give different arenas for people to develop themselves. I'm not going to sit here and talk to a man about what it's like to have prostate prostate cancer. I'm never going to experience that. Could I talk to a man about breast cancer? 100%. But I'm also not going to go and talk to my male superior about, hey, what was it like the first time that you put a gun belt on after you had a C-section? How did you get through qualifications that way when it was only eight weeks later? Or what is it like to come back to work and have to put on a vest when you've decided to continue breastfeeding for the first full year of your child being born? Is there specialized equipment? What about a belly band if you want to wear, you know, leggings at when you're with your off-duty? Like there are different conversations based on what's going on. And that's not us trying to be better or fit an arena that most people don't think we belong. But it's not us that try to segregate ourselves and make us better. It's it's the outside public that loves that narrative, that loves the clickbait just to push things and create the drama that's there.

Steve Morreale 30:57

Wow, you've said a mouthful on that. And I and I really do appreciate that. It makes some sense. And but going back to what you talked about was culture of your unit. And I speak about this all of the time, that most of us, when we're in lower positions, do not have the specific impact that you would like to have for the culture of an organization. But that doesn't mean that you can't handle you can't deal with the culture within your sphere of control, the 10 or 12 people, the five or six people who are in your unit to try to change the way we or they do things together and maybe create some awareness from outside. Hey, what's going on on that shift? How come they're getting along? How come they're being productive? How come, in other words, when you when you're in a position, realize you may not be able to control the whole organization. Don't worry about that. Exactly what you said. Handle your sphere of control. Do that very well. So thank you for that point of view. So now let's talk about. I am a woman. I'm not, but I'm a woman, and I have uh I have been impressed with your message and your offer to help me. And I give you a call, I arrange to get in touch with you. And I say, I'm not sure. I'm a sergeant now, I'm not sure whether I should move on or take that test or put my name in the ring for the next level. What kinds of conversations do you have with women in that situation?

Heather Glogolich 32:21

It's so individualistic because you know it depends on what the opportunity looks like, whether there's a pay raise, whether there's significant change in their schedule, what their home life looks like, what's important to them. And I really will dive more into what I talked about earlier is develop your why. Like what is your purpose and your why behind this decision? What matters most to you? Um, what's the end goal? What kind of impact are you looking to have? You know, why would you want to stay? So it's it's just conversations back and forth. And it really comes down to are you looking for my opinion? Are you looking for my advice? Are you looking for me to mentor you? Or are you just looking to talk through some of the things that are on your mind? I think, I think all too often as police officers, we try to fix everything for everybody all the time. And sometimes people just want to get it out. And so they're not really necessarily looking for you to give them your opinion. They're just looking to kind of get it out. So again, it's just very individualistic based on the person, the region that they live, what their organization looks like, what their home life looks like, how old are their children? Do they have children? Do they have somebody that supports them? There's just, you know, there's all the what ifs that go along with it that I try to play out. And I ask them if they're ready for certain things, certain responsibilities, because heavy lies the crown. As soon as you start going up that that totem pole, heavy lies that crown.

Steve Morreale 33:39

And I you're right. You you were just saying that I think police love to control things because that's natural for us. And sometimes there are things that we have to recognize that are outside of our control. One thing I observed over in Europe, and especially in Ireland and England, when I was dealing with them, is that they have a whole different view of women in law, in my view. And they have many more. When I when I left the police department where there are two or three women, uh, and then I went to DEA, where DEA was made up of 25 to 30 percent women ages, which was very unusual for me. So there was there was a much more ratio. But what I saw was that they they embraced maybe with some reluctancy, but ultimately embraced job sharing. So that if somebody goes out pregnant and has a child and staying out for a while, we give away we give up all of that training to basically force them to come back full time. And so what they have done in the past over there is to have job sharing. They take a 40-hour week and you say you can do 20 and you can do 20, and we'll keep you in the mix. What's your take on that?

Heather Glogolich 34:47

I don't know how that would work. I think in my current state, I don't know how that works. But I see part-time police officers, sheriff's officers, law enforcement professionals throughout the country, and they make it work. You know, I see different states have like different they they work for a multitude of agencies. So they might be full-time at one agency and then work part-time for a couple others. That just doesn't happen here in New Jersey.

Steve Morreale 35:09

Yes, understood.

Heather Glogolich 35:10

You know, this is such a common question, especially when it comes to not really a common question, but an issue that is somebody who's now the captain in charge of patrol who pushed really hard to reach the 30 by 30 initiative here and hire women for our team, which we did. We we reached it in two years when we had, or like three years earlier than we were supposed to. Four years. I'm sorry, four years earlier than our pledge. Now I have all these women who are going to be pregnant. And that's out of 12 women, eight of them can be pregnant at the same time. And then having men who use family leave too. It's a balance for administrators to understand, you know, budgetary and manpower issues and the safety of our community with also allowing our team members to be able to enjoy being a parent. We I think in law enforcement, we hold on to those things, right? We we gatekeep our certifications and our specialties because we're so worried about taking our position. So I kind of love that idea. I just wouldn't know how to make it work, but we should be always training like the military does, where if somebody goes down, somebody could jump right in and run their role. We don't do that here. Again, we gatekeep until it's time to formally promote you or formally put you into a specialized unit.

Steve Morreale 36:22

Yeah, I espouse the idea of developing bench depth because clearly if the secretary, I'm just saying your secretary, executive assistant, chief goes down, goes out, half the things that we take for granted that that generally she knows are not gonna happen. Where do we get the paper? How do we how do we get these things repaired? We're just not ready. And because because exact exactly what you just said that you gatekeep and you kind of keep it to yourself, you don't want to share. Bench depth is is very, very important, I I think, and developing people with training. So Heather, what I understand that you've almost created a small company to help women, besides being the president of New Jersey while. Tell us about that and tell us how people get in touch with you.

Heather Glogolich 37:06

So I have my own LLC, and that's really just so I can teach throughout the country, but I am certified as a career coach as well. It's called Empowered Policing. And, you know, I utilize it more in order to go across the country and teach. And it's not just for women. It's I actually have more men that reach out for mentorship. It's just this ability to connect with people in whatever way they need. And we've actually set up a mentorship program through New Jersey women in law enforcement as well for any stage of career that you're in. So I have a multitude of women as far as my team under that. And then I have my own company that is more part of a training company called the Justice Academy. You know, it's really a way to get in touch with me is through LinkedIn. It's Heather Glow Glitch. I am on Instagram, which is pretty much where I'm the most active, which is Heather underscore empowered policing. Heather at empoweredpolicing.com is my email. It's, you know, I try to give my time where I have the time. So if somebody needs something, I may not be the answer, but I'll find it for you.

Steve Morreale 38:01

Great. So what are the things that you are trying to improve in your agency now?

Heather Glogolich 38:07

It's a lot of basic stuff. It's allowing them to feel in New Jersey. I like to say, I would, I would say that the majority of people who work for college and education, higher education institutions feel as though that they're not real cops, that they don't have the same respect as other law enforcement professionals throughout the state of New Jersey. Sometimes it's used as a stepping stone. So I'm I'm very lucky to have a chief that very much pushed so our salary base is competitive. So now it's about allowing them to feel as though they can go out into Newark, our community, and do proactive policing that prevents crime. And, you know, being out there, you're never going to get a true gauge of how your actions are preventing crime. You know, our stats are up, our crime stats are down while our proactive stats are up. But it was really a lot of letting them feel, and I think this is universally as our newer generation of police come in because of political climate and nationwide incidents that have happened, allowing cops to feel like they can be cops and that they're supported. That is the biggest challenge in law enforcement altogether. And it very much rings true here at NJITPD too, also. You know, we see things like George Floyd and we know that there's always an opportunity to be better, especially when I feel as though New Jersey was doing a really good job regardless of what happened in Minnesota. But, you know, that changes the narrative. It changes the way people look at you, changes the way people come to you for help. And so it also changes the way that we react. And we're bringing in a generation of police officers that are nervous to go hands-on or to have that ability to show a police presence by just showing up on scene. They don't want to understand that they have police powers that, when justified and reasonable, can be used in response to other things. I think empowering our generation of police officers to understand that, you know, you can do good while still enforcing our police powers is the biggest struggle in policing right now.

Steve Morreale 39:56

With more than two decades of policing, remembering when you were a sergeant, now you're a captain. What are the steps you took to change and improve your leadership abilities and your leadership practices?

Heather Glogolich 40:09

I looked inward. Very transparently, I was not a great sergeant. I had a very big chip on my shoulder from having to sue. I just I went from leading or being on the same team of people to leading them. Culture in the agency wasn't great. I was very much more concerned about making sure my team did things right instead of making sure that my team was all right, if that makes sense. It does. And so I just, it was just, it was on me. It was on me to change that and prove that, to build my credibility internally and extrinsically, to allow my team to see that I was going to support them. Even if they did something wrong, I would be helpful there to help them get through it, even if that meant holding them accountable. I learned to allow myself to lead with love. And that's a big deal because we don't use that word in policing. And I very much tried to build a foundation of hope and tried to sustain that hope instead of it being punitive and autocratic leadership. It was about transformational leadership for me. It was really about empathetic policing. It was about getting to know my team and who they were and what their strengths were and what their why was, because not everybody does this job for the same reasons. So, you know, finding out what their why is and what their strengths are and developing them, and then stop pointing out their weaknesses, but giving them room to grow in areas that they need to. That really was something that started to drive my leadership level. And that's where I grew as a leader and how I grew my team. And I just I tried to be the person I would want as a leader, but it's been it's been a long journey. It's been a lot of I'm sorry. It's been a lot of I've messed up. And it's been a lot of me showing that I've failed but stepped forward anyway, and allowing my team to know it's okay to fail as long as they learn from it.

Steve Morreale 41:49

Do you see yourself as a servant leadership in addition to being a transformational leader?

Heather Glogolich 41:54

I do.

Steve Morreale 41:55

Okay. What does that mean to you? How it means people first. Okay, good, good.

Heather Glogolich 41:59

That love it's that simple. It's people first, you know, and people are people. And I don't get to dictate who they are, how they act, how they react. I just get to dictate how much I prepare, how much I plan, how much effort I put into individual people. And so again, it's so much about self-reflection at leadership and trying not to leave people out just because it's easier to not deal with certain personalities, uh, not avoiding the crucial conversations that need to be had and addressing problems at the base level instead of allowing them to get bigger. It's just serving leadership is so much more when you can.

Steve Morreale 42:35

But yeah, that's fine. Where do you find mentorship for yourself? If you are a mentor, who do you turn to? And I don't need names, but where do you find mentorship through the all give you names? Yeah. Okay.

Heather Glogolich 42:47

Tom Rizzo, who's a captain in Howell Township, is a very big mentor for me. I I love him beyond. He's one of my great friends. I've looked at past female chiefs. I am a part of the curve.org, which is led by Simon Sinek. And I just, man, when I'm when I met him and got to work alongside him, I turned to him and I'm like, Simon. And he's like, Yeah, I go, thank you for not letting me down. And he like looks at me and he's like, What do you mean? I'm like, I was gonna be really disappointed if you weren't the man that you appeared to be. I was like, and you are everything that you like, you are getting exactly what you see on all of the things he posts. He is one of the most authentic people I have ever met. And so he's someone I really look to.

Steve Morreale 43:27

And that team, I mean, you want to talk about a great man I I know I know the most I know a Jack Cauley and on and on and on. Jack Caulie. I know.

Heather Glogolich 43:36

Love me some Jack Collie. So yeah, they're all just great. So yeah, I'll look to them and I need them. And listen, I have some people that work in this agency that don't have formal leadership or elsewhere, and I will a hundred percent turn to them because they have the boots on the grounds. They see things that I may not see. And like I'd like to tell my team, you might have not have a vote, but you a hundred percent have a voice. And that voice is a huge part of mentoring me. On how I can help lead them better. Like, what are their expectations of me? So my mentorship is 360.

Steve Morreale 44:06

And you're willing, I'm glad to hear that. And when you're willing to understand other perspectives, it helps you make better decisions in a lot of ways. Absolutely. And it helps you see your blind spots. Yes. If you allow it. So you have the last word. We're going to wind down. And thank you so much. We've been talking to Captain Heather Gloglich, and she is a an EdD Dr. Glogolich. And you're teaching at times?

Heather Glogolich 44:29

I don't teach at a university right now, but I have training courses and then I instruct for FBI Lita.

Steve Morreale 44:34

Gotcha. I'm actually going to Princeton to lead it down there.

Heather Glogolich 44:37

Oh, very nice.

Steve Morreale 44:39

In June. So no, thank you. It's been a pleasure to talk with you, but allow yourself to leave some ideas, some thoughts for women who are listening, men who are listening, about the future of policing, the importance of finding a mentor, and the importance of if it feels right, stepping up, raising your hand, and getting into leadership position.

Heather Glogolich 45:02

I think foundationally, what I like to say is that the very first day on the road as a rookie, you should be getting leadership training. And that our our biggest leaders within law enforcement are that base level. There's the most of them, and they're the ones that are making decisions for the people within our community when they don't want to make decisions for themselves. And by building that leadership on our frontline officers, our boots on the ground officers, you're gonna develop better leaders in the formal role of leadership within pro within this profession. As far as women and men and and where they are and where they want to be, seek out somebody who leads the way that you want to be led and seek out the bad leaders as well to learn what not to do. And I don't think that we focus on that enough. We look at them and we try to separate ourselves from them. And yes, there's a way to protect ourselves and create those boundaries, but learning what not to do is equally as important as learning what to do. Don't tell, don't let anybody define who you are as a police officer or as a leader, unless it's somebody that you respect that might have good insight. And be open to not always being right and to learn from anybody that you can. Leadership should always be about self-development and evolution. None of us are a finished book. There's always a next chapter. And so realize that once you've arrived in this proficient profession, that's all you've done. You've arrived. And you have to grow through it. You have to go, you have to grow, grow through what you go through, is one of my what one of my sergeants likes to say. And I just love that term so much. And just continue, grow. Like that's what we should do. Just grow through all of it.

Steve Morreale 46:33

Yeah, being a lifelong learner is very, very important. I appreciate having you on. And I'm grateful for the listener who reached out and suggested I get in touch with you. I appreciate that. I hope that we will cross paths again. We've been talking to Dr. Heather Gloglich, captain at NJIT in Newark, New Jersey, where I used to work with DEA a long, long time ago. So I know Newark. And so it yeah, I'm grateful to have had the time. Thank you, and I wish you the best of best of luck in your in your time down at the Academy. You're starting in July. It is hot ass down there in July. So good luck. Thanks very much. That's another episode in the books. Thanks for listening. Feel free to reach out to me. We're being listened to now by people in 114 countries. This blows my mind. So thank you very much. Have a good day. Stay safe. Take care of you people.

Intro/Outro 47:25

Thanks for listening to The Cop Doc Podcast with Dr. Steve Morreale. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager, turned academic and scholar from Worcester State University. Please tune in to The Cop Doc Podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.