Dr. Robin Engel, Ohio State University

The CopDoc Podcast - Season 10 - Episode 174

Unlock the secret to transforming police leadership from the front lines. Dr. Robin Engel shares how dedicated research and real-world experience are reshaping police training and community trust—yet the journey is anything but easy.

In this powerful conversation, Robin reveals how her personal history fuels her relentless drive to improve policing—highlighting pivotal moments like her role in Cincinnati’s reform after a tragic officer-involved shooting. You’ll discover her innovative approach to data-driven policing, the critical importance of first-line supervisors, and why understanding and empowering the backbone of police organizations can prevent crises before they happen.

We break down:
How accreditation standards and evidence-based practices guide meaningful reform

• The role of a national consortium, CAPS, in strengthening frontline supervision across diverse agencies
• Why a police officer’s most vital asset is the support from their superior, and how training gaps undermine safety and morale
• The surprising insights from body cam analysis, AI, and administrative data that actually improve decision-making in the field
• Robin’s leadership lessons on uniting community, academia, and police during moments of crisis

There’s a stark warning here: neglecting frontline supervisors and evidence-based strategies leaves departments vulnerable to the chaos of the next crisis. Conversely, building a culture of continuous learning and local leadership means resilient, safer communities. Robin’s heartfelt story of overcoming skepticism and her unwavering commitment to impactful reform is an essential listen for anyone determined to make policing better.

Perfect for police officers, administrators, researchers, and community advocates eager to innovate and bridge the divide between theory and practice. Robin Engel, a renowned professor at Ohio State University and a leader in policing reform, exemplifies the power of knowledge turned into action, making this episode a vital blueprint for meaningful change.

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com 

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com 

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Transcript

Intro-Outro 0:02

This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The cop dock shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia, and other government agencies. And now, please join Dr. Steve Morielli and Industry Thought Leaders as they share their insights and experience on the Cop Doc Podcast.

Steve Morreale 0:28

Well, hello again, everybody. Steve Morielli coming to you with the Cop Doc Podcast. I'm in Boston today, and I am headed to Ohio to talk to another scholar, Dr. Robin Ingle, who is out there from the Ohio State University. Hello, Robin.

Robin Engel 0:45

Hello, yes, the Ohio State University stands for tradition, honor, and excellence. It's actually a real thing, and you learn that a new employee or which was so funny to me that after two going on three decades, when I moved to Ohio State two years ago, I had to be a new employee.

Steve Morreale 1:04

That's interesting. I learned something today, too. So for a long time, you have been a well-respected and a renowned scholar in policing. And I'm curious to know, spending most of your time at the University of Cincinnati, I I want to know how and what drew you to focusing on police.

Robin Engel 1:23

Well, that's a long story, but I'll start you back at the beginning. I spent two days in law school. I spent two days there. And on day three, day three was you could turn back your loans without penalty and not owe a dime. Or from then on, you had you would incre penalties, et cetera. I'd taken out massive loans. I'd put myself through undergrad and was uh prepared to put myself through law school. I was only interested in criminal law. And for that matter, I was really more interested in policing and why officers made the decisions that they made. And I thought this is probably not right for me. So I went back to my undergrad program at the University of Albany, and they said, next week, we're starting our PhD program. We'll put you in and we'll give you a stipend and pay your tuition.

Steve Morreale 2:19

Well, that's a little reversal, isn't it?

Robin Engel 2:21

I don't know what getting a PhD exactly means, but I'm all in and the rest is history.

Steve Morreale 2:26

Well, where did you go to law school?

Robin Engel 2:27

University of Albany. and I grew up in upstate New York. I grew up in a in a pretty humble home. Neither of my parents actually had graduated from high school. So thinking about, you know, getting an education and even going to college was a major adjustment for my family. Uh so I went to a state school, right? That's what I could afford. And even then I still had to take out loans.

Steve Morreale 2:50

that's a great story. And certainly where you ended up at at at SUNY Albany is is an amazing program that you that you graduated.

Robin Engel 2:58

And I fell into it and I didn't even know that they were ranked that high in the country, and that they had all these amazing scholars that came out of that program. So I was blessed.

Steve Morreale 3:08

Aaron Ross Powell There are an awful lot, and and some of whom I know. So you you go through I obviously you were attached to a mentor, you're doing work up there, obviously you're doing work towards it, you've got to figure out what kind of a dissertation you're going to write. Talk about the field experience that I presume that you had that sort of whet your appetite for police research.

Robin Engel 3:35

Yes, absolutely. Well, I will start with this. I was in an undergraduate class at Albany, and it was an intro to criminal justice class, and we were being taught about police decision making. And you know how you have the shoot, don't shoot scenarios, right? Now it's part of officer training with VR and other techniques. Well, back then, actually, it was one of those reel movies, okay? And they would play it and then you would hit your hand on the desk if you thought when you thought you should shoot. Okay. And the moment one of the students hit their hand on the desk, they'd stop that movie and then they would play it through to see, did you shoot the right person or did you shoot someone with a wallet, et cetera? And I I was captivated. Oh my gosh, this is such important work. How do we know when that's appropriate? How are officers trained to do that? And so it was just from then on, I was just amazed by all of the decision making that officers have to do on a daily basis and wanted to better understand that. And in order to do that, you've got to be in the field, right? I can't be a researcher sitting in the ivory tower. I actually have to go out and ride with cops and go where they go and see what they see to better understand how to best research that. And it's not to make judgments on their decision making, but rather how to enhance their decision making so that you can have better outcomes. And that's the type of work that I ended up dedicating my career towards.

Steve Morreale 5:10

What a way to start. And obviously. So you you must have worked with Rob Warden and uh was Bailey still around?

Robin Engel 5:18

Yes, he's at Albany still. And yes, he was one of my mentors, uh chair of my dissertation committee as well. And I got to work on this project called Popin. It was the geez, what did Poppin' stand for? Uh you don't have to remember. Project on Policing Neighborhoods. Project on policing neighborhoods. And so uh they sent me to Indianapolis in the summer of 1996, and then they sent me to St. Petersburg, Florida in the summer of 1997. And I rode with first line supervisors, sergeants and lieutenants. I went everywhere that they went. I wore a vest, I had a radio, um, and I was part of a larger project on systematic social observation. And that's where I learned literally so much. I learned more in those two summers about policing than probably my entire career.

Steve Morreale 6:08

And and and doing it not once but twice, that's a great experience and exposure. Yeah, it was great. So thank you. So there there were a couple of things that went on in your career. So let let's let's fast forward. Be curious to know what your dissertation was on. First line supervision. Okay.

Robin Engel 6:25

So I took that, I took the observations that we were collecting and gathering in the field and matched that with surveys, looked at different supervisory styles of first line supervisors, and then paired it with officer performance to see is there a difference? First, are there different supervisory styles, which I did find empirically, I found four different styles at the time. And then does that connect to officer behavior? And it did. And that was my dissertation.

Steve Morreale 6:56

It's interesting. In about 2001, my dissertation was on transformational leadership and the impact on job satisfaction from sergeants to to officers. So there's some similarity there. But but but it but it it it seems to me too what I said at the beginning before before we started taping was it always causes me to struggle and I become very frustrated. I do a lot of training for sergeants and and others, and it amazes me how little training they receive, how ill-prepared they are to take that step from line officer, senior line officer to sergeant, and how many departments don't pay attention as much attention as they should. And I know you are still working in that arena. Uh, and I want to talk about that, but I want to I want to go back to your time after dissertation, finding a job, working in criminal justice. Was your first stop, Cincinnati?

Robin Engel 7:52

No, I was at Penn State as an assistant professor in their crime law and justice program, and I was there for four years. It was a a wonderful time. I lived really close to the university, so I could walk to work and you know, the whole Penn State knitting lion, all that, going to the games. It was Happy Valley. It was a great and beautiful intro into my career. I really enjoyed my time there. And then I was recruited to go to the University of Cincinnati. And so they sort of pulled me away.

Steve Morreale 8:24

Probably that's crazy. No, that's so good. I mean, another great school. So you're at the University of Cincinnati, you're there for a while. And then something happened. And it it's a story I know we talked about it before. Mm perhaps the listeners don't know. Talk about that and what what happened, what your thoughts were, what the faculty thoughts were, what the student thoughts were, and how you ended up in a position that changed your whole view.

Robin Engel 8:50

Yeah. Well, actually, it was a half mile off campus, which added all kinds of complexities. And this was an officer-involved shooting. So let me back up just a little bit. I had spent my career actually embedded and working with law enforcement agencies across the country, but in particular the Cincinnati Police Department. So I spent so much time with them. They had been going through what they called the collaborative agreement. It was essentially a consent decree in the early and mid-2000s. So I was working with their command staff so directly. I was there every single week. And so fast forward to 2015 is when this shooting occurred. And it was a University of Cincinnati police division officer that shot and killed an unarmed black motorist about a half mile off campus in the city's jurisdiction. So the first phone call I got was actually from the assistant chiefs in the captain's site from Cincinnati PD. They were calling me actually from the from the incident itself, saying, We got a big, you got a big problem. Like one of these officers, this there's been a shooting, et cetera. And from that moment forward, my career completely changed. The city changed, the university changed. It was such a dramatic, tense time for our community. And imagine, recall that uh Ferguson, the killing of Michael Brown was in 2014. In 2015, we still had all of this chaos and crisis related to unarmed black males being shot and killed by police. And here we are, a little campus community. Most of the folks in Cincinnati didn't even know that the University of Cincinnati police existed or that they were armed. So this was shocking to many in our community. That officer was tried for was charged for murder, tried twice, two hung juries. And all during that time, I became part of the face of that tragedy because within about a week, I found myself as the new vice president for safety and reform at the University of Cincinnati and in charge of the police department.

Steve Morreale 11:13

Wow. Isn't that and unsworn, but a lot of experience in the field, uh obviously an academic understanding faculty and what was going on, and I understand how the dynamics there. But but imagine that. And a week later or a couple of weeks later, you're appointed. Anointed. So let's talk about that experience because that experience sort of changes it, a changed the trajectory of your of your career, number one. But number two, I I think it changed perspective. It had to change perspective. All of a sudden now you're inside and you're responsible. What happened? What changed? How did faculty view you?

Robin Engel 11:55

Oh, it was a it was a major change for me. And I did not anticipate at the time how dramatically this would change my career and my personal life as well. So let me give you an example. So I was called into the war room. This is where out, you know, all of the senior executives and some of the leadership from the police department have gathered. They're trying to decide what to do. They've hired a crisis communicator out of New York City who's on his way. He's going to be flying to Cincinnati. This is this is only just a couple days after the event. I had already met with the family of Samuel DeBoes, who was the individual that was shot and killed by former officer Raymond Tenzing. And so I had already sort of been called in to help. I'm sitting in this meeting and I said, okay, this is what we need to do. Short term, XYZ, here are the things you have to do immediately to handle this crisis. Long term, you really need to look at this agency and set up a series of reforms and investment and training and all these other things, or you're going to lose this police department. Because there were calls in the city to just disband the university police department altogether and just have the Cincinnati police take over. Nobody wanted that. The Cincinnati police did not want it. The UC police did not want it. So then I said, This is how you're going to have to save this. And as I'm talking, Steve, if you can imagine, I'm laying this plan out, and the room gets real quiet. And the consultant from New York, he's on the phone because he's on his way there. And he said, Exactly what she's saying. That's exactly what we have to do. That's exactly how we move forward. And everyone's staring at me. And then I realize they're all staring at me because they think I'm the one that's going to do this. As part of it, I said, you need a high-level person, not the president of the university, because you need to shield that person. You need a high-level person that reports directly to the president so that you're demonstrating that this is very serious. It's going to be, and they need to be the face of this tragedy for the university and handle all these things. And that's when I realized they think it's me. And someone pulls me outside, a senior leader pulls me outside and said, We need you to do this for the university. And I called my husband and I said, I don't know what to do. And he said, If not you, who's going to do this? You need to stand up for the university and the community and step in and use your expertise and do this. And so I came back in and I said, Okay. We worked out the details later. It was announced weeks later, but that was the moment that I took over. And it was surreal.

Steve Morreale 14:42

no one's prepared for that. Well, no, I know, of course not. so when you when you walked in, you didn't necessarily fully understand the rule. Not to that extent, where you walk in, there's been a shooting, and now you you're going to bring your expertise and your point of view to the game. But there I I guess they're wondering, like, who is this?

Robin Engel 15:06

Yeah.

Steve Morreale 15:07

Why her? What I would say that Oh, outside of that room?

Robin Engel 15:11

Oh, yeah.

Steve Morreale 15:12

Yeah. What does she know? She's not a cop, and yet you were the closest thing because you had such experience and the embedded or opportunities you had. So let's talk about because this that we talk all the time about leadership here. And boy, was that a leadership moment for you inadvertently, right? You're on. Let's talk about how that began to take shape, where you were trying to build a coalition and get buy-in from those that crew and that you were going to lead it, but you had to lead it together. It wasn't you're gonna do it, because Robin said, I'm guessing, but I'm seeing you shake your head. So expect explain that.

Robin Engel 15:53

So here's here's my disadvantages to start with. I'm not a sworn law enforcement officer. I'm female, I have a PhD and I'm white. All those things combined, regardless of what stakeholder group you go to, I'm not the right person for this job. Okay. And so because the community is saying, what can she possibly do to help us, right? And particularly the African American community. And the police department is saying, they're talking about disbanding our police department and our colleague is being charged with murder, and you're giving us an academic to lead us through. It's almost comical to say it out loud. And then all of the business folks and the donors, right? A university is a business. People don't understand that academia is a business. How am I going to make sure there's calm that people keep donating to the university, that this continues to function, right? So all the business leaders in the city who know, of course, writing's bad for business, right? It's bad for the entire city. And everyone's looking at me going, this is the pick?

Steve Morreale 17:03

And then it's not even a first round draft pick, for God's sake.

Robin Engel 17:08

Exactly. And then I have the faculty and students that I've taught or that I've been a part of this university. I have them showing up on my first day protesting me. I'm not kidding. Robin Engel has blood on her hands. Those were the chants, those were the, you know, the signs, etc. And so the folks in academia felt that I had abandoned them. And so I had a lot to do in the first few months to try to meet with all the different stakeholders. I went to the churches, I sat with the ministers, I went to the faculty meetings and to the provost office and all those other things. I met, I met with the donors, I met with city officials, I met with the cops. And the cops were the most important thing, to be honest, because I had to bring this agency up and with me. And I also made some strategic hires right away. The first thing I did was I created a new position, director of public safety, and I stole the assistant chief from Cincinnati, James Whelan, and I brought him in. So they could immediately see here's an operational guy, and he's known as an operational guy. He knows policing. And I'm gonna let him make the day-to-day decisions of policing. Okay. So that was that really, I think, spoke well to the law enforcement community.

Steve Morreale 18:31

And then also, if you don't mind, it also brought the two organizations together: Cincinnati and UC, who was having some issues with the way UC police were operating at that time.

Robin Engel 18:42

Yes, exactly. The other strategic hire I did was a director of police community relations, and I brought in Gregory Baker. Greg Baker had been in that capacity as a civilian rank of assistant chief in the Cincinnati Police Department when they were going through their reforms in the 2000s and early 2010s. So he was very well known in the African American community, but also in the police community. His wife was the president of the Urban League. So I brought him in, and the three of us worked together to reform that agency.

Steve Morreale 19:22

What an amazing experience and opportunity. That lasted for how long?

Robin Engel 19:27

I was there for three and a half years. And I told them when I first committed to, I said, I'll give you one year. It's gonna take you longer than one, but I'll commit to one and then I'm going back to faculty.

Steve Morreale 19:38

let's just ask that question and then I'll move on. What caused you to renew your time there? Was it that you had not yet achieved what your goals were?

Robin Engel 19:50

I did also something else that was a little bit controversial, but turned out to be the right call. I had a top-to-bottom investigation, it's not the right word, but sort of a top-to-bottom right, outside inquiry of sort of w what our agency was the status of our agency. Okay. And then I put us under voluntary consent decree. And I hired an outside team to evaluate the job I was doing. And that team actually included, it was led by Jeff Schlanger, but it included folks at the time that were part of the 21st century task force on policing, Obama's 21st century task force. So so we had Chuck Ramsey who was my monitor, and Roberto Silv Villasignor and some others. So I brought in heavy hitters in policing to judge whether or not we were making the progress we should. And we rolled up our sleeves and worked together and wanted to get together. And in three and a half years, we had there were there were hundreds of recommendations. I said, Did you think I paid you by the recommendation? My goodness. But we were in substantial compliance of every single one when I walked out the door.

Steve Morreale 20:59

Who were they reporting to? Was this a voluntary to Fed or state?

Robin Engel 21:03

This was a voluntary to the board at the University of Cincinnati. The community. Yeah. To the Cincinnati community.

Steve Morreale 21:10

It's unusual. Wow. But obviously it solidified the organization and it improved the organization. So three and a half years later, what do you do? Go back to faculty?

Robin Engel 21:22

I did. I went back to faculty. I forgot to mention Judge Andrew John West. They call him Skip. Well, everyone calls him Judge, Judge West. Um, but he was also he was instrumental in that he set up, we had a community advisory council, and he ran it. And he was very good and really important in our work, and I should mention him. But yes, I went back to faculty and it was a shocking change when I went back. It was at this point, it was just before 2020. I could sense changes in just in the my university. Grouping to begin with. We'd had some retirements and some changing of the tenured folks. So that was a little bit different. But then right as soon as 2020 hit, I felt like uh truly, it felt like PTSD. It was all over again. I had my own faculty signing letters of students signing letters demanding that I end my relationship and work research with law enforcement.

Steve Morreale 22:24

But did you have been if you're part if you're part and expression some saying you were sleeping with the enemy, which is just horrible.

Robin Engel 22:30

Yeah. And I just put my entire career on hold to save this university and this community or to help, right? And to our credit, we went through a whole series of events. And we never had the city didn't burn. We didn't have riots. We did the hard work. We rolled up our sleeves. We worked with people. We talked to them. We did everything preventative that we could going into those trials and other things. I'm gonna brag about my folks that were surrounding me and the police department and the work that they did. We did a great job. And then when I get back, you know, the disconnect between the very far left academics and more of the mainstream academia was so disconcerting. I felt like I didn't belong there anymore.

Steve Morreale 23:21

Well, I understand that and I've seen it. Look, Robin, as an academic myself now, with so many years in policing before that, there are times when I feel like I'm not wanted there because I'm seen as an apologist for the police. Because we're exploring the police and trying to help them do better and train them better and change mindset and de-escalation, all the things that we try to do. So it's it's sometimes uncomfortable. But when you when you got to that point and had been there for so long, it it would seem that you started looking for another place to be, and you landed quite well. Tell us that story.

Robin Engel 24:02

Well, first I did I did a little stint outside of academia. I went to the National Policing Institute, a nonprofit, focused on research. It wasn't exactly the right fit for me. I missed academia in certain ways that I didn't think that I would, right? I was so disgusted and frustrated with the way that academia was turning. But at Ohio State, I'm at the John Glenn College for Public Affairs. It's a different type, it's not criminology. So it's a different lens and a different look. The things that I had missed about academia was being able to research what I thought was important and be able to be the truth teller, regardless of political influence or other things. But you work and you're an organization directed solely on soft money. There are different issues that you have to deal with than in academia where you have sort of more protection a little bit. So there were certain things about academia that I really missed. And I'm enjoying my time now. I'm working with so many agencies. I'm I'm glad to be back, right? Rolling up my sleeves and doing exactly what I did at the beginning of my career. And that is working directly in agencies and communities to help reduce violence, to help make those conditions better, improve public safety, and make things better for the cops. And that's that's what I'm desire.

Steve Morreale 25:20

Are you bringing students along with you? Is that is that one thing?

Robin Engel 25:23

Yeah, we have a we have a couple of students that are working with us, and I have a few staff. We're a small group right now, small but mighty, and we're doing amazing things.

Steve Morreale 25:33

That's great. What a great opportunity. And because you never seem to have strayed from where you wanted to be in the first place, and that frontline supervisor is so important. And I've heard you say over and over again at conferences that I've been at, uh and even some of the things that you put out. And I always believe that it's the backbone. It's the frontline supervisor, the backbone. And and uh I'll say this th there was somebody, Dean Esterman had said this a long time ago when he was with Providence, and what he said was look, uh as you as you look through policing, I am the chief. He was the chief in Providence at that time. Most police officers do not see me as the boss. They see the sergeant as the boss. That's the person who's going to block for them, nurture them, counsel them, coach them, those kinds of things. But but again, what troubles me, and I'd love your take on this, is that it's almost that when you get promoted to sergeant, we'll think about training you after the fact, not before. And that's a problem. And that training is one and done in a lot of ways, and yet it's so important. Now I know that you're starting CAPS, so I'd like you to explain that, but you've been at it for a while, and what that means. When you started CAPS, I was watching from afar, and I started to see that you were saying we're looking for a number of people who would want to be a part of this. And boy, did you fill that pretty quickly? Because it it seems like it seems like there there was a cry for this is what I've been waiting for. I want this kind of help. I want to belong, I want to understand it better. So please tell your story about CAPS.

Robin Engel 27:10

Yes. Well, the first thing I will start with is a quote from Chuck Ramsey. He said, in policing, we regularly train, but we rarely educate. And that's always stuck with me. What is the difference between training and education, first of all?

Steve Morreale 27:26

And two educators should know that, right?

Robin Engel 27:28

Right, exactly. So that's step one. But then step two, we regularly train. We do regularly train on particular topics for particular ranks, and we don't regularly train for some of the most important. And that's those, and in my perspective, those first line supervisors. And this did bring me all the way back to where I'm a grad student again, watching the power and the influence that that first line supervisor has over the daily work of subordinate officers. But now I'm watching it in the context of we have people leaving the profession. Recruitment and retainment is such a critical issue. And we know that empirically, we know that officers that have what they perceive as a supportive first-line supervisor are less likely to burn out and less likely to leave the profession. It has such an important impact on officer safety wellness as well as organizational health, right? I I just this week I went and visited Minneapolis. They are so short of officers. I've never seen an agency that is so deplete. And what that does to an organization, right? So thinking through the role of first line supervisors is so critical. And so I was thinking about that a lot. And Steve, you know this, I'm sure. When you first see the videos that come out, the controversial shootings, or the, you know, the next thing that could put us all in riots across the country, right? The next video, we're all holding our breath. The first thing I always say is, where are the bosses? What what happened here? How did this break down at the first line level? And oftentimes it breaks down at the first line level because we do not prepare our first line supervisors for the transition from buddy to boss. Do such a poor job of that across the country. So what I wanted to do is start looking at where are we doing it well? And what does what does doing it well look like? How can we model that? And I want to better understand where are the gaps, what are the challenges for first line supervisors in a contemporary setting, right? I looked at that in the 1990s. It's not, it's relevant, but not. We need to update and better understand what are the challenges and gaps right now. So I thought the best way to do that is to ask the supervisors and how can we do that at scale? And that's what CAPS is all about. Happy to tell you more about it and how we did it.

Steve Morreale 30:02

no, it's really important. before you go down that road, people listen from all over the world, really. I I'm I'm shocked by that. But 137 countries are listening. And when you or I say empirical, those who are in policing who do not acquire a higher degree, I'm not sure that doesn't make them feel uncomfortable, empirical. But but tell me, because you're around it all of the time, tell me how we distill that into words that they understand. What what do we study? How do we study it? How do we come up with uh findings based on observations or or data?

Robin Engel 30:43

There's a lot of different ways that we can look at it, right? We can look at it quantitative data. So think about everything that an agency collects, administrative data, how many arrests, how many uses of force, how many citizen complaints, right? Officer performance metrics. A lot of people can understand, you know, uh early warning systems. Well, what are you flagging to see if an officer has problematic performance, right? That's the quantitative data that we look at. We also do surveys. How do officers feel and what do they think about particular topics? The same thing with supervisors as well. So we'll do their surveys and then we see do the surveys match what we're seeing in terms of their productivity or their activity in the field looking at the administrative data. But then we can also do focus groups. Literally bring a group of officers or supervisors together and talk to them and ask them, really, you know, probing questions, kind of like what you're asking me here, Steve. If there were a few of us, it'd be a focus group. And then the one-on-one interviews, and you can gain so much information and then, of course, go out in the field, ride, find out what's happening, ask people, and then we have those body cams. Look at the body cam footage, and then you can code from that body cam footage. And AI is making all these things so much easier, so you can generate your own data. So all of those things together are the data sources that we pull to see what works. And I think the best way to describe this is I'll go in to a training academy and they'll tell me they've got the best training, and I'll say, okay, how do you know that? How can you train what works if you don't know what works? We did the same thing with de-escalation training all across the country. People are chanting in the streets for reform and they're demanding that officers have de-escalation training. Do you know when all that was going on? Until I published an article in 2020, we had no evidence that de-escalation training actually worked in the field. No evidence. But we were demanding it. Why? How can we expect our law enforcement officers to be at their best if we don't even have a body of evidence that we're using to help them get there?

Steve Morreale 33:10

And one of the things that I say in in training and in some of my writing is we understand and we want evidence-based medicine. You want the doctor to prescribe a certain drug that is proven to be to have efficacy. And yet that was that was the genesis in some ways of evidence-based policing, which is growing, but we're lagging behind. And I know you're one of the people who are out there providing some of that evidence-based. And the way you explained it was good because I think it's important. The problem in many ways is that we as academics write so densely sometimes that most people can't understand. And for God's sake, some of the stuff that my colleagues write, I'm not sure I fully understand. You have to read it a couple of times. But that translational or that applied research, that's the sweet spot for us because it can be utilized and understood in the field. Isn't that really what you why you do what you do?

Robin Engel 34:11

Absolutely. And I forgot a little part of my career path. For five or six years, I actually led the research center for IECP, International Association of Chiefs of Police. Many of your listeners will be familiar with that organization, over 30,000 members across, I don't even know how many countries, maybe as many as you on your podcast. And so I led that research center. And one of the things that was very clear is you have the academics, they have to have rigorous methods and statistical design, you know, research designs and statistical analyses that are very rigorous. And you need other academics to judge whether or not that research is legitimate. It's not that it's not junk science. So there's all of that going on, and that needs to happen, and academics need to write for other academics. But then once it's been through peer review, we need to translate that into something that can be used in the field. And that's what we were doing at IECP at the time. Take all this research and now translate it. And there are some folks that are doing that really well, some of our colleagues from across the country that are starting to really invest in the translation piece so that we can bridge this gap between research and practice.

Steve Morreale 35:28

Thank you for explaining it from your perspective, because I think that's so important. So let's get to the consortium to advance police supervision and how that came to be.

Robin Engel 35:39

So I was writing for at the time federal grants. I had an idea. I'd always been interested in first-line supervision, as you know, all the way back from writing my dissertation. But along the way in my career, I did a whole lot of other things. I did a lot of work in violence reduction, in reform, evaluating training, and I hadn't really gotten back to supervision. And I said, I want to bookend my career. I started with what I thought was the most important piece of policing, and I want to end with the most important piece in policing. So I wrote this grant and I did it. I wrote the grant proposal in two days. And I sent it to Department of Justice, to BJA, the Bureau of Justice Assistants, not knowing if they would take it or not. And I was awarded a grant to start a national consortium. And I named it CAPS, National Consortium to Advance Police Supervision. And my idea was to get one first-line supervisor from agencies across the country and have that one supervisor work with us remotely every month to identify the gaps and challenges that they face and to pair them with a team of researchers and trainers and other folks with expertise in public safety that could help them build tools and resources to fill those gaps. And that's what we do. And along the way, I also figured out we have these first line supervisors that are donating their time, representing their agency, donating their time. We should set up a professional development series for them as well. That's great. So we have every month, I have a different speaker, a different series, something for them specifically, just for them, as a thank you for donating their time. We started when I wrote the grant, I think I had 30 agencies. And I said, if awarded, I'll cap it at 50 agencies. Well, we have over 70 because I can't say no. Because everyone hears about we want an officer there. But the great thing about this is we have, I think it's 28 major cities. The rest are small and mid-size. We have four county agencies, four campus agencies, uh, four state agencies. So we have small agencies all the way to the largest agencies in the country. And the interesting thing is, regardless of where they're from, they're the same where the gaps are and the challenges are for these officers and for these supervisors specifically. And they are fabulous. They're rolling up their sleeves and they're building stuff, and I love it. I can't wait for these things to they have to be approved because it's a federal grant, so they have to be reviewed and approved. But then we're going to put those tools and resources out for everyone, free. Like this is what we're building.

Steve Morreale 38:35

It's a pilot, and from that it will be shared nationally. That to me is amazing. And I wonder, and and I was just with a group of sergeants, I think 25 sergeants from New England the other day. And I said, How many of you have been trained before you got here? Not many. And more importantly, is there a field uh training sergeant program? No, not one. Well, why not? We have a field training uh agent. Well, that was my DEA day, but we have a field training officer. So to me, you've got to find a mentor, and I think this is what you're creating too. By the way, a mentor doesn't have to be in the same agency, it's almost better when it's from somewhere else.

Robin Engel 39:10

That's right. This community of practice that we're building is so important. They really are embracing that. It's energetic for them to hear from their peers from around the country. But then also when we do that professional development series to have others talk to them specifically about their role and about the work that they're doing. But you're absolutely right. This is the thing that we found. There's no uniform standards for training or selection of supervisors. There's no evaluations of training curricula. There's little ongoing professional development at that level. We do a lot for the executives, but we don't do much at all at the first line level. We have folks that are unprepared to leave or to lead, and it's not their fault because we don't do any pre-promotional training. Get them ready to be promoted. We don't do that.

Steve Morreale 40:08

So my time in the military, and I talked to so many people who are in the military, uh, as an irony, I went up to Norwich University and I I rendered the first salute to my nephew's son who was in the military. And I could not become a sergeant without some previous training that would show I had an interest in that. And so it while I know we call ourselves paramilitary, we do not emulate what goes on in the military. And that's a mistake in my mind.

Robin Engel 40:38

It is a mistake. It certainly is. And I think it shows when we asked our supervisors, tell us where the gaps are and the challenges for you folks right now. And when you hear the topics, you'll realize so much of this is something that we could have prepared folks for, that we could do a much better job in doing that. So challenges that they've identified, staffing, right? Staffing is an issue across the country. Generational differences. How do you communicate? And our supervisors are younger and younger now, right? And so how do you prepare them? And also those generational differences for communication. All aspects of training and development they found as a gap or a challenge for them. Effective communication strategies, they don't. This is a generation in part that they don't know exactly how to talk to people, including their colleagues. Exactly. And then, of course, officer morale, safety and wellness. That's a big gap and a challenge for first line supervisors. Think about it, your first line supervisor, those are the folks closest to understanding what those issues are for their officers. And are they actually prepared to help officers in those very personal ways? Accountability and performance management, there's gaps for them. They don't know how to do that.

Steve Morreale 41:57

Well, and many are many organizations don't bother with it. Right. And then So how do you how do you survive if nobody ever tells you what you're doing well and what you need to improve in?

Robin Engel 42:06

Right, right.

Steve Morreale 42:07

And then you and I had to do that, right? As we as we climb through the steps from professor, from assistant to associate.

Robin Engel 42:15

But then think about the challenges for first line supervisors related to technology. Now, so some will say, we don't have enough technology. That's our challenge. Others will say, it's too much too fast. We're choking on it. We don't even know how what to do or how to use it in beneficial ways, right? So understanding what that means at the first line supervisor level is going to be really important. And and time management, we push everything to the sergeants. Well, what's the most important priority? What do you want them to focus on? How do you want them to lead? All of those are unknowns in many agencies.

Steve Morreale 42:52

Yeah, but my saying is if everything is a priority, then nothing is a priority. In other words, sometimes boss, you just gave me this that on top of the 20 other things. What is the most important right now? We don't like to push back. We don't want to challenge, but I think that's very important. And that's a skill that we could hone for them.

Robin Engel 43:09

Yes, exactly. So in policing, we focus so much, as we should, in in some cases, we focus on those highly unpredictable events, right? Have you heard Gordon Graham talk about the black swan versus the gray rhinos? No. Okay. It's a metaphor, of course, but basically suggesting that in policing there are these, you know, high impact events that uh terrorist attacks, mass shootings, et cetera. We spend a lot of time thinking, agonizing over these things, and as we should, right, and preparing for them. But what we don't prepare for is the gray rhino, the very big, mass, large animal that's coming right at us that we know if we don't get out of the way, we are going to get run over, and it's right there. Well, who Are the gray rhinos in policing? It's your first line supervisors. We know they have such potential and impact on the on the work, on the you know, all the things in policing and in these communities, but we don't provide them with the resources they need to be successful. And we see it and we know it and we still don't do anything about it. That's what CAPS is about. We're forcing people to see and to know and to do something about it.

Steve Morreale 44:31

So if you were clairvoyant, what would you say the end game is?

Robin Engel 44:36

I don't know about caps because you know this is a federally funded program. The federal funding will end. I hope that what comes out of this is that the field, and I'm seeing it already, the field is really starting to talk about first-line supervision again. And it's not just because of caps, right? But there is a general sense, I think, and a movement of we have focused so much on the leaders of the organizations and we have left behind this very critical rank and role. And it is time for us to do something about it. I hope that CAPS, if people hear about it, that they'll realize, hey, what are we doing in our own agency and how can we be better? And that we start doing more peer-to-peer exchanges and we let researchers in the door so that we can test what's working the best. Um this isn't to critique, it's to improve the entire profession. And if I can have a lasting legacy on that level of the police organizations across the country and around the world, I would be, I would be very content with retiring and sailing off to the sunset, just knowing that people recognize it's a critical issue that we need to pay attention to.

Steve Morreale 45:47

What a great opportunity for you at a great time because police have been under fire for a long time. I am optimistic that we're moving in the right direction. But you're absolutely right. We're one event away from a complete setback, as we saw with Minneapolis and Missouri and such. I have a couple other questions. By the way, I have not said once who we've been talking to. This is Robin Engel. Dr. Robin Engel, she's at the Ohio State University, a researcher focusing on policing. And I want to know what's the most difficult criticism you've received from policing professionals early on or now about your approach or what you're asking? And sometimes they don't like to be asked questions, right? It's interesting. Police are constantly in probative form, right? We're asking questions about investigations and what happened here. And then when they're asked questions, they're a little reluctant sometimes until you earn trust. So has there been criticism that has that you've had to explain away and get back on track?

Robin Engel 46:53

Early in my career, certainly. There was always a question of who's that in the back of the room, why is she here and what's she doing, and how's she going to use this information and how's it going to be used against us? I think that I've earned over the many decades now, multiple decades that I've been doing this work. I think that I've earned their respect in that I'm a straight shooter. I'm not here to expose or critique. I'm here to help and to help everyone be better. In our communities, too, right? I think I have that same gravitas isn't the right word, but at least an understanding from our community as well. Maybe that people know that I'm a straight shooter, the that my motives are pure. Having said that, even with starting up caps, bringing the first line supervisors in who I know police executives across the country, but I don't know at this rank and level many of the officers. And so having them be selected by their chief to come. One of the things is, what are you going to do with this? What it's one of those, are you looking to profit from this? We're going to give you all of this, and then you're going to create a training and start up a business and make money off of this kind of thing, right? Well, look, where is this going? And so they have to look at the whole record of a researcher to say, okay, what happens here? And unfortunately, many of our colleagues will go into an agency, take data, not give anything back to the agency, and years later, there will be some article that comes out, and that's it. And they're like, why did we waste our time or our effort? You gave nothing back to us that we could use.

Steve Morreale 48:34

That's in many cases been the history history and why we're why we're tainted when we walk in sometimes until we have to say that's not what we're gonna do. That's not how I'm gonna approach it.

Robin Engel 48:45

Right. Exactly. So now I'm at a point in my career where I think most people know that about my work. But still, you always have that who is she and what's she doing here?

Steve Morreale 48:58

Gotcha. I understand. What advice would you give to young researchers who are interested in studying policing but have a difficulty in understanding and building trust in police agencies? I think in some ways, what you were just saying, that the younger generation, different than ours, they're they're not as communicative. Sometimes they have social unease. And I think in some cases, we're seeing that with younger faculty. How do you go and improve yourself? And how do you how do you start? Kid, you don't have any experience. We don't want you to let you in.

Robin Engel 49:33

A couple of things. First, you got to get in with either a mentor or other like-minded folks that do have those reputations that can sort of vouch for you and help you along, right? So work in groups, that's the first thing for young academics. But more importantly than that, and I would always tell my students this as well, you need to get out and ride. You need to go and sit in the church basements and hear what the community has to say. You need to go to city council meetings and observe how and what the politics are in your communities that you're trying to serve or work in. And if you just pull data, you can analyze data all day long and you can have the most fancy statistical techniques. And this is true of the economists. They do a lot of really advanced statistical modeling and they do not know anything about real-world policing or what it's like that or what it's like to live and work in these communities that are high violence communities or high crime areas, and they have no context. They have no context. So my recommendation is get out and ride. You gotta earn it. I spent hundreds of hours riding with officers before I wrote a single sentence about them. And I also, with the Cincinnati Initiative to reduce violence, I spent four or five years working to reduce violence in the city of Cincinnati, and I got three articles out of it, academic articles. And people are like, you're wasting your time. You need to churn these articles out. Not if you're not if you're doing it right. Not if you're gonna impact communities, which is what we should all be about.

Steve Morreale 51:13

So we're talking to Robin Engel and we're gonna wind down. But I wonder, Robin, how satisfied you are with how your career has where your career has taken you. Are you satisfied that you're helping the right group of people? I'm presuming that you had a new earned respect when you walked into the Cincinnati, U Cincinnati Police Department and understood them behind the scenes and up close and personal and and how much they sacrifice and how much they help they need and how much they're willing to risk. And you see that today. Are you satisfied?

Robin Engel 51:55

I'm never satisfied. It's just my personality.

Steve Morreale 51:58

So that's I say the same thing. I say the same thing, yes.

Robin Engel 52:01

Well, that's step one. But I'll tell you, there was this one moment, and I'll I'll never forget it, actually, when I took over UCPD, and I was gonna change the use of and I did change the use of force policy and change their training on use of force. And we brought in de-escalation, brought in the ICAT training. And one of the officers said, You're gonna teach us to hesitate and you're gonna get us killed out there. And I realized I had no evidence to suggest otherwise. I'm a researcher, I had nothing to say to say that's not true. This training that I'm gonna put you through is actually gonna make you safer. Now I have that evidence because I generated it, but at that moment, I felt like our profession as researchers has let this profession, public safety officials, down because we haven't been researching the right things that really matter for them and we haven't done it in the right way. And for that moment for me, actually was a turning point yet again in my career, where I need to do research and and use my skill set to really help this profession that I'm not satisfied at where we are in that work. And so we got a lot of roll up your sleeves, we got a lot of work to do.

Steve Morreale 53:27

That's great. What question did I ask you that you would like to answer?

Robin Engel 53:33

Oh my gosh, you've asked me a lot. And so that's all good.

Steve Morreale 53:38

What would you like us to understand about where you're going and what drives you?

Robin Engel 53:44

Well, I didn't tell this story, and it's a story about my childhood. So I grew up in a in a rough home. My rough is not exactly the right word, but my father was an alcoholic, and he was also, when he drank, he was very violent. And uh my mom and my siblings and I took the brunt of that sometimes. And the officers would sometimes be called to my home. And this was the mid and late 1970s, and they would come and they'd say to my mom, hey, take the kids to your mom's house and let them sleep it off. And that was the intervention. And those cops, I don't think that they were trying not to help me. I just think that they didn't know any better, and that that was the culture of what was accepted in policing. Until one day an officer came and he arrested my father. And that day changed my life. That decision changed my life in very positive ways. And my mom to this day, she's in her 80s. I said, Mom, someday I want to be able to tell our story. Is it okay if if I do that? And she said, Sure, honey, do you need the paperwork? She's in her 80s. She toddled off to her arts and crafts room. She's moved three times, and she within five minutes had the copy of the incident report handwritten of the day my father was arrested. It was the first time that someone in authority believed her and said, This is not acceptable anymore. Now we know from evidence 1981, we know from the domestic violence, Minneapolis domestic violence experiment, and from others, that there are other alternatives to just not doing anything that are more helpful. And that for me was like, okay, someone built the evidence and changed the field. And chain and that was Larry Sherman and and his colleagues, and changed the field of how we deal and handle this particular crime. And that changed my life. I would love to think that someday I'm able to change policing in a meaningful way. That changes just one life.

Steve Morreale 56:03

Well, I have to tell you, I am so gratified that you would share that. And as I'm watching you, I know you were digging back into history and the hurt came back, Robin. But thank you for humanizing because to me that's a full circle moment right there. Where you're helping the police today based on the action of one person who used their discretion to help you and your family. Thank you, thank you, thank you. That's amazing.

Robin Engel 56:36

Yes. Well, I've been speaking about it more regularly recently. Every time it's a little bit difficult, I thought, well, everyone's talking about what's your why. And I had to ask myself, what is my why? And then I realized it's always been there.

Steve Morreale 56:48

Well, we just found out Robert Engel's why. And I'm so so grateful. How amazing is it to finally connect with you. I appreciate that. And I think this has been very meaningful. I always talk about people who are who are leaders who uh assert themselves and make change and reform, and I'll call them thought leaders. Without question, I have talked to a thought leader from a different dimension. So thank you, Robin Engel. I very much appreciate it. Thank you very, very much.

Robin Engel 57:17

Well, thank you. And thank you for all that you do so that we can get these messages out, right? You volunteer your time to create this amazing podcast. You have listeners from all over the country and around the world, and that's the best way to get this out. And I appreciate the time.

Steve Morreale 57:34

I wish the best of luck in the future. So thank you so much. Well, that's another episode of the CopDoc Podcast. In the can, we've been talking to Robin Engel, Dr. Robin Engel from the Ohio State University. A pleasure to talk with her and to get her perspective. Thanks for listening. Keep listening. And if you have somebody in mind that I should be speaking of that is of notoriety, of doing some great things out there in the policing world or academic world, scholar world, give me a jingle. All the best. Take care of yourself, take care of your people.

Intro-Outro 58:07

Thanks for listening to the Cop Doc Podcast with Dr. Steve Morreale. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager, turned academic and scholar from Western State University. Please tune in to the Cop Doc Podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.