Lynn Gilbert, Documenting life's unseen layers: what we see and what is really there...

Lynn Gilbert, a celebrated documentary photographer and author, shares her extraordinary six-decade journey capturing often-unseen truths through her lens. A rich, moving and layered legacy: unusual photographs of children in the 1960s, portraits and unexpected stories from feminist icons, rarely seen interiors of traditional Turkish homes, iconic photographs of Denise Scott Brown and Louise Nevelson, and more.  Lynn reveals how her diverse projects are connected by a singular vision: revealing what lies beneath the surface. Poignantly and powerfully, Lynn speaks with great humility and reflection about her own journey, exemplifying an artist’s vision and vulnerability, persistence, and the courage to say ‘yes’ that can lead to extraordinary places – often when we least expect it. 

Transcript

Introduction to Lynn Gilbert

Speaker 1 0:00

I'm Ilana Landsberg-Lewis, your host of Wisdom at Work. Older Women, elder Women and Grandmothers on the Move, the podcast that kicks old stereotypes to the curb. Come meet these creative, outrageous, authentic, adventurous, irreverent and powerful disruptors and influencers. Older women and grandmothers, from the living room to the courtroom, making powerful contributions in every walk of life the living room to the courtroom, making powerful contributions in every walk of life.

Speaker 2 0:26

Hello everyone, welcome back to Wisdom at Work. Elder Women, older Women and Grandmothers on the Move. So today I have a really delightful and what promises to be a delicious conversation with Lynn Gilbert, who's a documentary photographer and author, perhaps best known for her portraits of illustrious women from the 1920s to the 1980s and her documentation of the interiors of traditional Turkish homes and the beautiful book published in 2015, the Silk Road Then and Now. Lynn grew up in New York and graduated from Sarah Lawrence College and the Fashion Institute of Technology, and began her career documenting the lives of her children in the 60s, and then a series called Children in Repose, capturing images of children from 100 families, using her camera to document the lives of children in diverse socioeconomic contexts in New York in the mid-70s, and I'll let her tell us the story of how she came to create the photographic series Illustrious Women that led to her first book.

Speaker 2 1:25

Particular Passions Talks with Women who Shaped Our Times, including the rich oral histories of 46 trailblazers from the second wave of the women's movement, to name just a few, from Betty Friedan to Gloria Steinem, julia Child, billie Jean King, and the Washington Post called the book, published in 1981, revolutionary In 2018, lynn's work was the subject of an exhibit Women a Time Capsule of the American Feminist Movement, and then in 2024, her photographs were in a solo exhibition called Time Capsule in the Elon Art Gallery in Harlem.

Speaker 2 2:03

Her works are held in the permanent collection of the National Portrait Gallery of the Smithsonian, the New York Historical Society, the Smart Museum of Art, the University of Chicago and far beyond. On Lynn's website, she starts by saying I am a photographer who documents areas of society that have not been recorded before, and there's a fascinating story I'm eager to hear from Lynn and share with you about her 60 years of this pursuit and the power of documenting and observing elements of the human condition in a myriad of ways through Lynn's lens, figuratively and literally. This podcast is intentionally called Wisdom at Work, and there's a reason for that the conviction that now more than ever, we need the wisdom, the intelligence, insights, moxie, reflections and power of older women, and today we have a wonderfully interesting woman who exemplifies this.

From Fashion Design to Photography

Speaker 3 2:51

Lynn Gilbert, it is such a pleasure to welcome you to this Wisdom at Work conversation today, and it's a pleasure for my being here, because when I listened to some of your other podcasts, I was overwhelmed by the wisdom that these people shared and also their experiences, and I felt I don't belong there, but I'm delighted to have been invited in. So here's the thing that I found with age that makes a difference. You start with something that interests you and you pursue it and you don't know where it's going. And people talk about life in flow. It really is in letting life go. Let it take you where it's going to go.

Speaker 3 3:39

And what happened with me? I had no intention of being a photographer. Period. That wasn't my interest. I knew from an early age I was going to be a fashion designer. There was no ifs and buts about it.

Speaker 3 3:53

When my children were born, I wanted to document their lives and I photographed them all the time. And when I wanted to photograph them in school, I felt they're not going to let me in the school to photograph my kids. Why should they do that? And what I realized is that if I made this a project where I would take pictures of other children and sell them and raise money for the school, the headmaster was going to let me in the school. I ended up doing this for many years, probably for about a decade, and I was fascinated by the children, because children are seen as I hate to use the word flippity-jibbit. They're silly, they're funny, they're having a good time, they are serious and they take on aspects of character that are very similar to what an adult does. And you see the way they stand, the way they address each other.

Speaker 3 4:53

And as I did this I realized I did enough of the candidates raised money for the school and I decided I wanted to do something more meaningful. Here's another thing that I found I can't just do something. For just doing it, there has to be a reason to it. And I figured out that if I did children in different socioeconomic backgrounds, I would put together a group of pictures that had some meaning. So I took my portfolio of pictures that I had and went to schools around the city to the principal. If I could go into the classrooms and pick kids you couldn't do that today for sure and I also had five scouts looking for pictures. I wanted kids that had electricity, that had an aliveness, that connected.

Speaker 3 5:46

So when I did these pictures, then you have to have somebody see them. So I took them to two people I took them to. One was Arnold Glimpsher, who's head of the Pace Gallery, and he had been a friend and I said look at the pictures From that point. There was one other person I took them to who was Arnold Newman. Arnold Newman had done all the president's very important people my aunt and uncle were godparents of his children.

Speaker 3 6:18

It helped to get in. He looked at the pictures. He kept saying ah, ah, ah. And I went home and I said to my husband he hates the pictures. And I went home and I said to my husband he hates the pictures. And he said come to my master class. I went to his master class and when I walked in he said she's taken the best pictures I've seen since Lewis Carroll. I was going to die Anyhow when I took them to Arnie and he said do my kids? I did his kids and from that he said do Louise Nevelson? Louise Nevelson was one of the greatest artists of the 20th century.

Speaker 3 6:53

I'd never photographed an idol before, not formally and I was. You have to learn. You say yes, yes, yes, yes, but don't go in unprepared. Yes, yes, yes, yes, but don't go in unprepared. So I got a number of friends and I photographed them until I got to the point where I was photographing, you know, comfortable. And then I went to photograph Nevelson.

Speaker 3 7:16

I have to tell you a shocking moment in my life. First I had hired a car to take me there because I have a lot of equipment and it was raining and the car didn't show up. So I'm having a panic attack. Anyhow I get there and I had to drag all this equipment upstairs. I get into her studio and it's bare, except for a few things on the wall. I thought I can't do this. I need a background. And it turned out many of the things were her son's art. I couldn't use them.

Speaker 3 7:51

And then she came out. And she came out dressed in what I call a cockamamie outfit. She wore clod hoppers, you know, like sneakers. She had a riding hat on, she had a gown on underneath. That was Scotsy, who was a well-known designer. And I'm thinking I can't do this. I said I'm going to stick.

Photographing Louise Nevelson

Speaker 3 8:16

So one of the things when you photograph somebody, you have to be very calm and you have to make them feel very comfortable. And I was feeling it was the end of the world. I said to myself okay, get a hold of yourself. You know, and I don't know whether this is for everybody, but when you're in a situation, whatever it is, I'm the photographer, she's the subject. I have to make her feel comfortable, and I think that that goes for any situation that you're in, that you have to sense, collaborate with the other person that you're going to work with. Whether it's an interview, whether you're giving a talk, you know not to focus on you, you focus on the other person and by doing that and also telling her look, I want you to look the best that you can. I want you to tell me what doesn't work, what don't you like, so that I avoid it.

Speaker 3 9:12

What I did do is, before I went in, I had researched her and read and read and read. When you meet somebody that you don't know, you have to have a common bond that will allow you to link up. You can't just pick something out of the air. So by doing that and making her feel comfortable, I was able to get the picture. It was very scary for me and when I went back, I had about seven pictures and I went back and showed them. She said these are the best pictures I've ever had. Now she's been photographed by everybody who was anybody. So here's a tip. I got a compliment.

Speaker 3 9:55

I said write it. And I saved it. But it was a very important thing for me because you can say to somebody somebody said this. They're not going to believe you, and especially with one of the greatest artists of the 20th century. I had it in writing. So Arnie said to me he wanted me to do Time magazine in color and I hadn't done it. So here's another lesson that I learned from my vantage point. Now I should have said yes. So as I'm talking with you now, I can share with you a mistake that I made and understand what I should have done, because what I've learned in life there's always a way of doing something that you haven't done before.

Speaker 3 10:43

Well, this picture changed my life and it opened a door for me, because what I wanted was recognition for my children's pictures, and when I would show people the pictures the dealers they'd look at them and they'd say who did that? So I wanted to say who do you think did it? They said nobody's buying pictures of other people's children. So I had to figure out what am I going to do and how am I going to move forward? The way I moved forward was to use the picture of Nevelson as a calling card and I decided, if I did a book on women, I would be able to get my children's pictures recognized. Well, the way I did the book and again, this is the way I think you have to do something with integrity. Just taking pictures that are well-known people, it's not going to work. I mean, you might get the pictures and you might get a book published, but it's not going to be meaningful. So what?

Speaker 3 11:46

I decided that there were other women like Nevelson and that I would do a book that were women who had made tremendous strides and who had changed the discipline that they were in. I didn't realize that this was going to take me on a journey that was five years, because there was no record of any of the women who had made major contributions, which is a shocker. The first record was in 1971, and that was women like Rosemary Wood, who was Kennedy's secretary, or Rose Kennedy or Jacqueline Kennedy. None of these women were recognized. The thing for me, you know, in looking back, is the thrill of discovering who are these women, and I didn't pick them. What I did is librarians are extremely knowledgeable and I went to the librarians and I figured out what are the major disciplines, and then I found three people in each field to give me the key women. Then I went after them. Now I'm nobody and I'm going to the top women in America.

Speaker 3 13:07

Lesson First of all, how do you introduce yourself? What I did was I wrote. Now I could write a letter. In those days you didn't have email. This is in the mid-1970s. I went to. I figured if I had good stationery and I presented myself that way that they would notice and that after I sent the letter I would call and speak to their secretaries. So I designed stationery and I didn't want to have it printed. It was too expensive. I did thermography, which they had at that time, which was raised print, and I found a way of doing it wholesale. I ended up going out to Queens and walking across the subway tracks to get to this warehouse so that I could get the stationery.

Speaker 3 13:50

Then I started on my journey. So I learned on anything that you want to do don't start at the top, start at the bottom and get people who will be honored and thrilled to be part of this. And then you say to the next person oh, I have so-and-so and so-and-so and you work your way up the ladder. The ones that were known at the time were Billie Jean King and Julia Child and Barbara Walters, who are in the book. Ruth Bader Ginsburg wasn't that well-known then. So I started on this journey of getting these women. Some of them turned me down 10 times and I never take no for an answer. I said you know what you have to do it because these women are in it and these are the key women. So they agreed.

Speaker 2 14:40

So tenacity is part of it, you know tenacity.

Documenting Women Who Changed History

Speaker 3 14:44

And there's another word chutzpah. One of the things that I was afraid of is that somebody would ask me do you have a publisher? Which I didn't have. And you don't approach these people without a publisher, so I would. You know, this is 50 years ago. I was prepared and I would. I always lived in dread that that was going to happen. So, as I'm working my way up the ladder, one of the women that I approached was Sylvia Porter. Sylvia Porter was the first woman to have a byline all over the country and she reached a lot of people with financial advice. With Sylvia Porter, she went in the other room and she called out who's your publisher? So I cut my ear like I didn't hear. I said what'd you say? I figured by the time she came out of the room she would have forgotten. She didn't forget and I came out with my whatever my spiel was at that time. You know that I wasn't going to have a problem, that people had seen my pictures, and I approached her that way. So when we go in to do the session in her office, she is in a foul temper and I'm thinking how am I going to do this? Because I direct people. I say sit here, move your hand here, there, whatever it is. So I said to her. I said, sylvia, you're a pro at what you do, I'm a pro at what I do. This is what I need you to do. At the end we were friends and she said I'll help you with whatever you need.

Speaker 3 16:26

I photographed these people because I knew so much about them. I researched each of them and I was able to talk to them about themselves. They told me stories that I knew hadn't been published. So I went home and I wrote everything down. I had reams of paper on each of the women what they wore, what they looked like, how they behaved, and I needed to get a writer who was going to go back and interview them and use these stories. It took me a year and a half. I went through 30 writers until I got somebody whose writing I liked and who was willing to use my stories and go back.

Speaker 3 17:02

I have to tell you, the stories are wonderful, so I have them translated into three languages and it's been a big job. I have a graphic designer who's done the covers and right now I'm working on the intros, a summary of what each one has done in 50 years. That's taunting. It's a big task, but it takes you on a journey that takes you somewhere else. So I'm looking forward and telling how this is going to make a difference.

Speaker 3 17:37

These stories that I'm researching show that women were handicapped at that era in the 70s, in the 60s, in the 50s and what they did is they turned those handicaps and rose above them to change what is happening for other women in the field. And so I'm shaping these intros to show women's histories, like today. I've been working on Billie Jean King. When you go, it's page after page after page of the wins that she had in tennis. That's not what it's about. It's about how she turned what she saw as a handicap in her life to make that possibility, open it up for other women. So that's what I'm doing with all these women right now.

Speaker 2 18:28

When I was reading about your work and I was looking at some of your photographs in your Wikipedia page or the Wikipedia page on you and your website, and I was thinking to myself at first glance, there isn't a sort of rhyme or reason to photographing children, photographing second wave feminists, photographing the interior of Turkish homes, and now there's this magnificent garden through the seasons that you've been photographing, and I was thinking that there isn't an immediate connection between all of them. But the connection is you. The thread that runs through it is what you're seeing and what it means to you and for us. For us, we're receiving what you find interesting, what you've delved into, whether it was happenstance or intentional. How do you see that when you look at just the range of things that you've brought to life and brought to us through your photographs and your stories?

Speaker 3 19:18

I am so glad that you asked that question because that's part of what I've arrived at now at this age I'm 87. I started understanding it a number of years ago, but I've lived with terror because I'd go from children to women and then you know the Silk Road. It's like what is this? And what I realized is that for me, the core of everything is truth. That's a crazy word to use, because you know what is truth, but what is the reality of each of them? That is different from what we see, and that is a thread that goes through everything for me. As an example, the children. They're always a reflection of their parents. To me, children are. They are a reflection of who they are. With the women, the same thing. How do they want to be seen? Not how we see them.

Speaker 3 20:18

What happened with the traditional houses? I have a passion for seeing houses and I went to England for I don't know, 20 or 30 years. I went to see great houses, not the great, great ones. I can't relate to that, but I'd go through the National Trust and get to these groups that want to see homes that people lived in and it gave me an absolute thrill. But I did enough of it and again, part of it is happenstance I would go to the Javits Center where they have, you know, a travel expo once a year. I was there the whole day collecting books. I've been all over the world, but I was, you know, looking for somewhere new and I saw a booth where the woman was representing Turkey. That's how I got to.

Speaker 2 21:07

Turkey. I have a fascination with houses too. When I was looking at some of the photos it made complete sense to me but how do you go from the Javits Center thinking, oh, turkey would be a wonderful place, I haven't been there before to even conceiving of the idea of taking photographs of traditional homes.

Turkish Homes and Architectural Photography

Speaker 3 21:24

Here's what happens in my life. Tell me, okay, after I did England for you know the 20 or 30 years I said, okay enough, go somewhere else. So I was going to Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan. I chose that place because somebody I knew had spent a year in Uzbekistan and he said you'd find it very interesting.

Speaker 3 21:49

When I was at the Javits Center and I met this woman, it turned out she was a journalist, who was a lapsed banker, who was also a photographer. She was a guide also. So I said I'll come to Turkey if you'll be my guide. So I went on four trips and what we did is she knew the areas to go to where they had these old homes, but she didn't know the homes. So what I did is we would walk down in the alleyways I had my cameras and I had her with me to translate, and people stood in the doorway and I would point to my cameras and I would point to going in. I only remember one person not letting me in her house and that was because she had a sick child.

Speaker 3 22:39

And when I got enough of a body of work, then I, you know, I actually found a real guide and he knew the Mukdars, like the governors or the mayors in each town and village. So we were able to go from town to town and they had set up the appointments for me. Then I have to tell you, you never know what you're going to get. And in life you never know. As, for instance, the last trip, I found a new guide. She had a sister who was an architect who knew houses.

Speaker 3 23:12

It didn't happen because the guide who took me at that time didn't know where to go. I got picked up by the police who thought I was coming to these poor villages to steal their gold. And I was in a village where there were only five houses. Everything was boarded up and we got to the last house. I was exhausted by that time so he said look you're here, go in. That house was one of the most interesting houses I did out of the thousands of rooms that I've seen. So the moral of the story is don't say no, just keep going.

Speaker 2 23:49

You never know what's going to happen. I mean, I'm just interested in how your mind works. Had you seen the inside of a traditional house and you thought this would make a beautiful photographic series?

Speaker 3 24:00

I've been going to houses since I was 12 years old and my mother took me through the Museum of Modern Art. They had four days during a month where they opened up houses and she took me and I got really hooked on houses because these were houses you don't go into. Now you know, like Annenberg, and the houses were gorgeous and my life is partly about aesthetics, so that when you see something at that level, it's not how fancy or how luxurious it is, it's about taste.

Speaker 2 24:43

I heard you talking on another podcast and I think they were asking a question I would never have thought of asking you, which was how do you define success? It just wouldn't have occurred to me, because you clearly have had such a rich life, but also a richness in the art that you do. You know, you said earlier that you said no to the time and I wonder, in terms of your internal life as an artist, you said no and there must've been a reason, just aside from sort of that it was in color and you weren't doing color. But now you know, looking back on it, you would have said yes In terms of how you've grown, just in yourself as a mother, but mostly in your art and through your art. What is satisfying to you at this point, at 87?

Speaker 3 25:22

I'm going to tell you something very strange and it's interesting that I brought up about turning the time down. It's only two weeks ago that I learned that I should have done it, and I'll tell you why. But let me digress and answer the question. I have never felt successful ever and it's painful because I would have liked to be successful, and it's only now that I realize I have been successful. But the sad part is that I didn't realize it, I didn't incorporate it into my sense of self. It's always. Why didn't I do it better? And that's crazy always. Why didn't I do it better? And that's crazy.

Speaker 3 26:09

Here's an example I have 23 pictures in Wikipedia and the woman that I worked with at the time said put them in there. And I said well, that's a little crazy because they can take them for free. It was the best thing that I ever did. First of all, there are 253 million people a day who look at Wikipedia. My pictures have been seen around the world. People are finding my pictures. I just yesterday found somebody from China who wanted to use one of my pictures on the cover of a book. So my lesson that I've learned, which is separate it's not about the money, it's not about who knows you. The ultimate thing is what is the pleasure you get out of what you do, and I get you know when I'm doing whatever I'm doing. You know, like today, I was working on the intro for Billie Jean King. It is so exciting because what I've done is take all the research and I've looked at it in a way that has not been looked at before, and it's not just about her, it's all the other ones that I'm doing. It's so exciting. So, you know, I end up the day I said, oh, this is thrilling. It's also like I photographed recently Denise Scott Brown, venturi. And, again because the pictures have been seen on Wikipedia, a publisher found my picture and wanted to use it in their book. This is a Swiss publisher, so she used the picture on the cover because Denise Scott Brown is probably one of the most influential architects in the world. The book is sold everywhere and the picture has become iconic.

Speaker 3 27:56

And I got invited to speak at the American Institute of Architects I think that's the label. They were all scholars there and I got invited to the dinner because I was part of the panel and the woman sitting close to me was a scholar and she said you should photograph her. Now what happens is when I wake up in the morning and this is every morning I have what I call an epiphany. I said, of course you're going to do it. So I went down, the person I work with, who's a graphic designer designer, said you know, you should really be filming her. I said good idea. Now, as for why, I said now I should have done the Time magazine cover. I'm 87 now. I just turned 87.

Speaker 3 28:40

I went to a seminar two weeks ago and one of the people who spoke his name was Smolin and he had an opportunity to do a famous conductor, sarah Caldwell, whom I also had photographed, and he was going to do it for the cover of Time, but the light was very, very bad. I don't remember exactly how. He figured out how to do it and he took the picture and it was on the cover of Time. Now he was in the same boat as I was in and he took the advantage of saying I have an opportunity, I'm going to do it and I've learned. Now, go with it. It might not be perfect, but just go with it.

Speaker 2 29:22

And there's something, too, about perfection. I was reading something the other day that said it's not about perfection, it's about persistence. I was really thinking about what you're saying take the chance, take the risk. I was thinking about the book where you were photographing the women and I was thinking I would have been completely intimidated.

Speaker 3 29:40

I felt near death each time.

Speaker 2 29:43

It's not what I expected you to say.

Speaker 3 29:45

Was it really that scary? It was so scary. You know. Here's what happens. What I realized in my life I didn't have a profession and I was going to be a fashion designer.

Redefining Success at 87

Speaker 3 29:56

I had tried it, hated it. I just absolutely hated the work I had. I was going to study art history and I went to Columbia General Studies after and I realized I'm not a scholar and I said what am I going to do? The opportunity that I had was an Evelson card. It was a card, it was a calling card. So the choice was that or nothing. So I said, go with it. And I was so sick inside. Each time I would get on the phone and I would call each assistant or secretary and I would wait three days till they had had the letter. And I presented myself. And you know, I had a woman who worked for me and she used to make me hot milk and I'd get the hot milk and then she'd put her arms around me so that I'd get the courage to call, but they said yes, I mean, you did photograph these women.

Speaker 2 30:54

Can I ask you this? There's an intimacy. I would imagine to photographing someone as you say, like not staging it so that it's not genuine or authentic, but taking the care to make sure that they're going to be happy with what they did and they're going to feel good about the whole experience. So that intimacy must lead to a moment between you and the women that you were photographing. Do you have a sense of connection? Do you continue a sense of connection?

Speaker 3 31:20

Absolutely. What happens? You ask me, do I continue? The answer is no, I don't continue with them because their lives are. You know, my life is different.

Speaker 3 31:30

I was 38 at the time and these were women who were successful in their careers and were focused on what they were doing, and I wasn't looking to make a personal connection after that. But what I did find and it's something that I feel all the time is that I always try and make somebody feel comfortable. One of the things that my father had taught me is let them talk about themselves. They're going to feel comfortable, but you have to be genuinely interested. I care about people. I love hearing about their lives. You're looking at somebody. They're looking at you. What do they see? What I realize as a photographer, I'm going to get in the picture that I take of them how they are looking at me and what I realize. I take the risk and what I am continuing to do is I take the risk. I don't let anybody knock me down and I'm not aiming, because I've never felt successful and it's only recently that I realized I am successful. You know, like you mentioned that article in the Washington Post. I said what.

Speaker 2 32:45

They speak to so many women who say very similar things, and I think it's really interesting women who are older looking at their lives and what they've done and what they've accomplished, what they're proud of. It's not always the most obvious achievements, it's something that was a very personal achievement for themselves to overcome something or to get somewhere and realizing, as women get older, just how much they actually have accomplished, and it redefines the sense of what a successful and well-lived and rich life is, and I find that very interesting and sort of edifying to hear older women talk about the richness of life as sort of a successful and well-lived life, as opposed to, when you're younger, the things that are the traditional, more conventional benchmarks of what we think of as success. I wonder, though, when you add in as an artist, do you think of yourself? Do you talk about yourself as an artist? Your questions are terrific, I have to tell you.

Speaker 3 33:45

I'm going to add this aside you have to go with what you're doing. It's fabulous what you're going to get out of it, you don't know, until you'll reach a point where you say I've done it and people have to realize you have to live a life and get to a point where you can look back on it. And my horror always was I went from children to women to you know houses and a garden. What is this? You know? What am I doing? I have no focus in life. The focus has always been the same thing what is something that is really there that you don't see? That you look at the layer and the underneath layer of what is really there and it's exciting that what you're doing, that other people will begin to understand. They're not going to understand until they get there later.

Speaker 3 34:37

Now, one of the things that I've seen I'm in a group Toastmaster, which I love, and I realized that in looking at groups or looking at what people have done, they don't understand how you know some of them, how successful they are, because they're too young. The satisfaction of achieving a goal that you're setting out to do and getting it done, you know, make making it work and what I realized like doing these intros because I can't publish them until I get the intros done that it's like climbing Kilimanjaro, but I love a challenge. I know that I can do it. It's a killer and I've worked on one of them. It's not that I work on it all the time. I've worked on it. It's a killer and I worked on one of them.

Speaker 3 35:25

It's not that I work on it all the time. I've worked on it. Actually, it's a year and it was Nevelson's and I worked on it for a year and I'm friends with her granddaughter, so I had her go over it and she said you nailed it. But I've changed it subsequently because I'm going for the goal of what somebody accomplished in their life, what their background was, what influenced them and how they influence our society. As I'm doing it, I'm saying, oh my God, this is fantastic. When I'm done, I will have the joy of having done something that is very gratifying and a real contribution.

Speaker 2 36:03

I hope so. I think I heard you once in another conversation talking about the difference between looking and seeing A big difference.

Speaker 3 36:11

As a photographer, first of all, when I pick up a camera, it's a totally different experience, and when I was younger and I was going to all these houses in England, I didn't take pictures. I said you have to experience what you're looking at. This is crazy that I did this, because it wasn't with later that I realized that by picking up the camera and focusing on what I was doing, I looked, but then I saw because you have to look at all aspects of it, whether it's a landscape, whether it's a person or even a cat. I always start with a blank canvas and I take four areas that I'm going to photograph a person in, just take pictures till they get comfortable and we're talking and talking. Then I do two more different backgrounds so that, as a photographer, I have the option of more different backgrounds, so that, as a photographer, I have the option of using different backgrounds. We're sitting in a different way. The fourth one I pick before I start photographing I said I'm going to end up there and I give them a break, and I know that I'm going to get it, because it's like somebody's going to sneeze and I know I can see the tilt of the body. I also watch the shoulders that they're relaxed. You know it's in the eyes and it's in the hands and I know I'm going to get it. By that time somebody is relaxed with me and knows that they can trust me. And it's meeting somebody halfway.

The Art of Seeing vs Looking

Speaker 3 37:44

You know, like I did this series of Denise Scott, oh my God, I got fantastic pictures. I got her with different moods and I got the sense of dignity and empowerment, sadness, humor. I got the whole range. You know, when I did her actually she's the only person in 60 years that every picture I did of her was a bullseye. And I did it again this time I got one picture of her that is so, absolutely so gorgeous. It was the first picture that I took when I walked in and I'm standing on a stairway and I just got an amazing, amazing, amazing picture. You know, when you get something like that, it's nirvana.

Speaker 2 38:27

Now that you're older. What is the pleasure of getting into your 80s and still telling stories I don't really need to set up as a juxtaposition of being younger. Is there something different about it now that you're in your 80s? Better Good, that's a good answer. It's so much better.

Speaker 3 38:46

It's Only really just come gelling. Now I'm at a stage and this sounds crazy I'm 87. And it sounds terrible. I'm preparing myself so that I can die and I'm not afraid of death. I've had a very wonderful life. I want to prepare things to make it easier for my kids. My papers are in order, my will and you know I have a lot of work to finish.

Speaker 3 39:13

I photographed this garden. It was over a period of four years. I have 8,000 pictures. It took me half a year to be able to understand which angle I should get to get what I call the essence of the garden. The garden evolved into a. It's a hub for the whole family. They're 30 and they come together once a year and they also travel together. The garden is the background. So I have the background and can put together the story of their family. So I have that job to do. I can't even think of all the things I said. You know you got to get it done and even like right now, and you hit at the core of life. What is life about? Life is about, for me now making the most of whatever is happening, taking advantage of it, not looking back that I didn't do this or I didn't do that, but realizing you did something and you can still make things happen.

Speaker 2 40:17

I can't think of a better ending to this conversation than that. It's so beautiful, that's just a perfect book and, for those who are listening, when I post this conversation, I'm also going to post your website. I'm sure that people will now go and look at the books and the photographs. They're just just marvelous, and it's exciting to think about what comes next. Thank you so so much, linda. We'll talk again. I'd love that. Okay, I would love it too.

Speaker 1 40:44

Thanks for listening. I'm Ilana Lansford-Lewis, your host of Wisdom at Work older women, elder women and grandmothers on the move. To find out more about me or the podcast, you can go to wisdomatworkpodcastcom, formerly grandmothers on the move, and you can find the podcast at all your favorite places to listen to them. Tune in next week. Thanks and bye. Bye for now.