From Policy to Protest and Persistence: Dr Socorro Reyes:

From classroom to courtroom, from policy rooms to protest lines, Dr. Socorro Reyes has spent decades fighting for women's rights across Asia and beyond. In this captivating conversation, she reveals how personal experiences – watching her mother navigate a patriarchal household and later becoming a solo parent herself – laid the foundation for her feminist journey.  Her insights challenge us to examine where our movements have flourished and fallen short - and how intergenerational feminism must continue, grounded in work with women at the grassroots, where real change happens at community level.

If you enjoy this podcast, let me introduce you to another:  Older Women and Friends, hosted by Jane Leder, janeleder.netor or wherever you listen to podcasts!

Transcript

Introduction to Dr. Socorro Reyes

Speaker 1 0:00

I'm Ilana Landsberg-Lewis, your host of Wisdom at Work. Older women, elder women and grandmothers on the move, the podcast that kicks old stereotypes to the curb. Come meet these creative, outrageous, authentic, adventurous, irreverent and powerful disruptors and influencers older women and grandmothers, from the living room to the courtroom, making powerful contributions in every walk of life.

Speaker 2 0:24

The living room to the courtroom, making powerful contributions in every walk of life. Welcome back everyone to Wisdom at Work. I'm your host, Ilana Landsberg-Lewis. It's lovely to have all of you back to hear a wonderful friend and mentor, or femtor, Dr Socorro Reyes. She's a policy analyst, a governance advisor, a legislative specialist and women's rights advocate. She's an international consultant on public policy and governance, social development and gender equality. At present, she is the regional gender and governance advisor of the Center for Legislative Development and she's also a senior research fellow at LaSalle Institute of Governance.

Speaker 2 0:59

Sikora was the chief of the Asia-Pacific and Arab states of UN Women in New York for six years, where she directly supervised four sub-regional offices in East and Southeast Asia, South Asia and the Pacific, Arab States and North Africa. She was UNDP Senior Gender Advisor to the Government of Pakistan for three years, where she designed the Capacity Development Program for 36,000 women councillors. She was also Director of Gender and and governance of the New York-based Women's Environment and Development Organization, WIDU, and spearheaded the global campaign called 50-50 Get the Balance Right. She taught political science at De La Salle University for over 20 years and was the first chairperson of the Department of Political Science. She has just completed a study of gender relations and the extrajudicial killings in the Philippines, in collaboration with the Women and Gender Institute of Merriam College. She is also co-convener of One Sambayan. She is also an active member of the Movement Against Disinformation and the Committee for the Freedom of Philippine Senator, Leila de Lima. Welcome, Socorro, it is wonderful, beautiful to have you on Wisdom at Work.

Speaker 3 2:08

Thanks, Ilana, and thanks for that very generous introduction.

Early Feminist Awakening and Activism

Speaker 2 2:12

Well, I know it just scratches the surface. Of course, it isn't everything, but I think it gives a sense of the vast experience and expertise and commitment that has defined much of your working life. And I thought, though, that I would start by going back in time. What led you to these passion for women's rights, the fight against tyranny and dictatorship, and the violence that comes with it? Were there formative or transformative moments in your young life that led you on this path?

Speaker 3 2:38

Yes, certainly, perhaps. In terms of my personal life, my feminism stems from seeing my mother in a patriarchal household where women are to keep house and take care of the children, while the father would be the one, you know, earning the money. And I remember very well my mother telling me never, ever, allow your husbands to stop you from working, because it's different when you have an independent source of income and that will make you more free, more who you are. So that stuck in my mind. Professionally, when I was teaching at De La Salle University, we've organized a group called WISE Women's Issues and Endeavors. It's a university base but the men were laughing about it, mocking and making light of it, and I said, come on, I mean, these are serious issues.

Speaker 3 3:37

And then, shortly after the restoration of our democracy after the martial law regime, I organized the Congressional Research and Training Service and I thought that, aside from capacity development of committee members and their staff, I would also like to track gender-related legislation in the House of Representatives and the Senate and I saw that there's really very few legislation on women and marginally addressed in all other bills. Then I said that we cannot be just monitoring legislation, we have to be actively involved in the enactment of legislation, and the first that we had was the Anti-Rape Act, which basically redefines rape from a crime against chastity to a crime against persons. We formed a group to reform and introduce and initiate legislation. And then, of course, that defined my career path and also my personal journey, and so from then on, my work had always been on women's rights, and maybe I should add, ilana, that I was also a solo parent, so a personal experience of it is to be both mother and father to my son, and how women can really do it, you know, by themselves and touch other people's lives.

Speaker 2 5:04

As I was reading your bio and I was thinking about what I know of the work that you've done. It must take an extraordinary amount of fortitude to do work on extrajudicial killings and at the same time, you really brought a feminist analysis. I really wanted to hear more about that. It isn't always a feminist journey to get involved in the tyranny and violence of oppression.

Fighting Extrajudicial Killings in Philippines

Speaker 3 5:24

You see, extrajudicial killings left widows, left children, left mothers, grandmothers, ancestors behind. So there's still the feminist perspective there. It's not only like the police report 6,000 killed or 30,000 killed. Multiply that by at least three people. You know the mother and the children, and more, you know they don't have only three children, they have three to six. Then you will find that, as a feminist, you need to work with them. You cannot just ignore them, because these women's rights were as violated as their men who were killed, and so what we did was get together some now there are so many of them some of these widows and their children, and held family camps for them. It's a three-day camp where you get together the women, where you ask them to tell their stories, engage them in some activities that will really make them not only feel better but make them realize that the change in their lives can happen, but it has to start with them. There is a lot of crying, but there was also a lot of laughing, but there is also a lot of heartbreaking stories.

Speaker 3 6:41

By the way, these extrajudicial killings targeted the poor, you know, those who lived in the slum areas, in the informal settlements. None of the big drug lords were really caught, were really put in jail. So there's just no justice, no accountability. And when was this exactly? When all of this was happening, he said, oh my Lord, and they started these extrajudicial killings. Also, this guy says tokhang, which means tokhang, is you knock on the door? This tokhang is different. They don't knock on the door, they just push themselves in and then they start shooting drug suspects even the sight of their children, of their wives, their partners, their grandmothers. And then it went on until he finished his term, and he's proud of that, by the way. He's now at the International Criminal Court waiting for his trial.

Speaker 3 7:48

Another thing that I should mention is, during this time also, he arrested a staunch critic and opponent then Senator Laila de Lima. Senator de Lima was my former student at De La Salle University, so there was that personal tie already. But I wasn't really close to her when she was a student and, by the way, she was a shy, laid-back student. But then I thought, oh my Lord, you know, if I am true to my calling as a teacher, I should be able to stand up for my students, especially this one who seven years later was proven to be innocent of all drug charges against her. So that was really a big turning point and I would attend all her court hearings whenever I'm in Manila and I would visit her at the detention center and I really promised her that I will walk with her in her journey to freedom and I believe you were part of starting the committee to support her.

From Academia to Global Advocacy

Speaker 2 8:43

Yeah, who was at your side? Who were you mobilizing to come to her support? And, of course, it was support of her as an individual, but it was also a political statement of support for those who were wrongfully detained.

Speaker 3 8:54

The women really rallied behind Senator DeLima and midday sun they would come to the court and rally outside. Of course we were not allowed inside. I managed to get in, you know, by just speaking English and by wearing my suit. So the women's groups, they're very, very important. The human rights organizations, her staff, her colleagues in cabinet, then the former justices of the Supreme Court, so all the progressives really bonded together.

Speaker 2 9:26

You've been in policy and program and funding and multilateralism and diplomacy and activism on literally on the streets and outside the courthouse. I'm always fascinated by activists like you who haven't just made their life in one lane but have really explored the full panoply of human resistance and feminist resistance, and I just I wanted to hear from you a little bit more about that. How do you think about it?

Speaker 3 9:50

now, you know, when I was a teacher, when I was a professor, I realized after so many years of teaching that you can't just stay in the classroom. You have to make a difference, you have to go outside of the halls of the university. And I was teaching a very elliptic school where the rich send their children. So I said, nah, you know, this is too small a world for me. And then that's when I started applying for international jobs. That's where I got into WEDO, the Women's Environment Event Organization. I was a big fan of Bella Abso so I thought, oh, this is a good place to start. So I applied and I was taken as the Director of Gender and Governance. An opportunity opened for me to apply as Senior Gender Advisor to the Government of Pakistan. I was taken in as the Senior Gender Advisor to the Government of Pakistan and I was in charge of the Gender Equality Umbrella Project. I said let's look at how we can help these local women counselors and 36,000 local councils get involved. And that was really quite a task. But you know, I said, when you're young, you know you don't think of difficulties, you think of opportunities. You do not think of limitations, you think of possibilities. You know it's good when you just get into it, do not overthink, just dive in Absolutely as things happen and just you know. But you see, ilana, what happened is I got into Pakistan in September, early September, on September 11, there was a New York bombing and of course, because Pakistan is very close to Afghanistan, the UN places a red alert because we know that the US will bomb Afghanistan. I know I didn't even have a TV then because I just got in. I have to buy because I have to know what's happening. So there I was, in Pakistan during those years when the US was after the Taliban and of course they were eyeing Pakistan because Pakistan is where is the go-to for the Taliban. And I did my work. See, I didn't think about, you know, the safety, about the periods the UN was providing good security. So now, from the academe, we just talk, talk, talk. We do, we're, you know, advocate and Pakistan where the real thing is.

Speaker 3 12:10

And then my contract finished after three years, so the position for chief of the Asia Pacific and Arab States section of UNIFEM. Unifem then opened up. I applied and so they took me in. So I got there in 2005. I stayed until 2011. And because I was in charge of Asia Pacific and Arab states, and because I had regional offices, I got to move around and see for myself what really is going on. So, look, I mean it's been a ride, it's been a journey, but for a feminist advocate that's the way it went. When I came back to the Philippines, I rejoined the Center for Legislative Development and now I still do research. Now my focus is gender and climate change and especially for provinces that are badly hit by typhoons. So I'm glad you know I'm actually writing my memoirs now and I'm very happy that we're talking, because now you know I'm 76 and I said, boy, before I lose my mind, I better write. Your mind seems sharper than most. So that's my journey.

Reflections on Impact and Community

Speaker 2 13:17

Yeah, it's a remarkable journey and I also wanted to ask you we're living in such confounding and difficult times conflict and crises and genocide erupting across the globe. I actually can't resist to ask you the question sort of what patterns and what challenges when you think about all of the work that you've done and the trajectory of things that you've seen, and with women and women's equality and gender equality under such attack in this context of crisis and conflict, is there something that you see so clearly that needs to be advocated for in this moment?

Speaker 3 13:48

You know, I have to be very honest, through these years of working on women's rights, from the academe to the legislature, international organizations, through a multilateral organization, there's one thing I realize, you know to really make a difference, we have to work with communities. Because you see, we're talking, we're an echo chamber, and I keep on asking myself have I changed anything? Of course you cannot say that after working this long, we have not really made any dent. But how have I changed women's lives? And by women I don't mean women who are university educated, middle class, urban based. I do not mean those women, I mean the women who are there in the communities, the grassroots women. You know, as we talk, I am now helping our EJK widow who has, by the first partner, five children and now she is sick, quite sick actually, and she has no access to health care. So these are the women that we should be helping, because they don't have access to health care, they don't really have a source of income, they are really not receiving any of the social benefits because they were never in the form of labor force. So to me now, looking back, I think I've done enough work on policy. I think I've done enough work on capacity development. I think I've done enough work on advocacy in the streets.

Speaker 3 15:24

Now I need to concentrate, to focus on what my second life is all about. You know, I just had an open heart surgery for my 12-valve replacement Nasty, but anyway. What I was saying is that with that near-death experience, it made me realize that when you leave this world, what are you going to be proud of? What is one single achievement that you've done? Those articles that I wrote, who will read them anyway? They are good for promotion in the academy, they're good when you apply for a job, but what really changed? I think that's my realization now.

Speaker 2 16:07

Yeah, it's a profound realization. It's very profound coming from you because you've really worked in every conceivable area of making a difference or having an impact. I didn't know you'd had such a serious health challenge, but you know you could just retire, take care of yourself, take it easy. But that's so clearly not who you are and not where you've arrived, lana.

Speaker 3 16:28

I was thinking of that. I can just you know. I have a pension. I can just you know. But no, I think the reason why I had a second lease on life because I still have something to do, yes, and you just want to be lethargic. You want to be a couch potato and I'm very particular about my mind, because if your mind goes, you go, and to keep it working you've got to be involved, you've got to be engaged, maybe no longer what I did before. I travel, pure joy from adventures, reminding you're still alive. I still have lunch with friends, I attend meetings, I go for workshops. I'm more selective now, not like before, I take everything. I go for workshops. I'm more selective now, but like before, I take everything. I can't do that anymore. We have to learn how to hand it over. Intergenerational feminism the feminist world will collapse, you know, if you don't pass it on. I'm also interested in feminization of aging.

Speaker 2 17:25

Yes, I was going to ask you about that because I have a deep belief that we can't afford with the state of the world the way it is. We actually can't afford to lose the intelligence and the insights of older women.

The Feminization of Aging

Speaker 3 17:40

Ilana first, yeah, I don't really care what people say about me, and that's very important. Yes, I don't really care what people say about me, and that's very important, because in the past you were there to impress or you were there to make people recognize you, this, and that I think I'm no longer bothered by what people think about me and I think that I have made my own dent in the feminist world. I don't really have to speak for myself. I don't matter Whatever you say. Go, go, go. And I tell the young women we have failed you, because look what world you have inherited. Look, even with CETO, even with the Beijing Platform for Action, even with Beijing, even with Women Peace and Security Resolution, even with that Security Council Resolution 1820, even with all this. So I tell the young women where we failed. You should really succeed. And so my role is really to be in the background. I really am more into telling you my experience, where the pitfalls were what you should avoid. But that doesn't mean that you should be constrained by my own experience. There is a lot of work still to be done and I hope that what we did not do you do it Like, for example, where is patriarchy? It's deeply, deeply, deeply rooted. What has really changed with patriarchy? And don't contribute to that. My, you know, looking after your man as God, you know, as a savior, as the income earner, as the strong one in the family, and also, unlike us, as I said earlier, you have to engage more with women who are not like us, in other words, women who are in the countryside, women who sell food in the streets, the women who are deprived of any kind of social pension, any kind of health care. We focus on that. I was always telling them about legislation, about policy. We have so many of those. What we need is implementation, but more than implementation, it is really monitoring of outcomes. You know how did it change the world? Yeah, I have a very rich experience as far as women's rights are concerned. I think my tapestry is quite colorful and dramatic. Yeah, but that's for me. What about you? What has it changed?

Speaker 3 20:07

When we came up with Beijing, bfa plus 30, I was asked to write the chapter on feminization in Asia. And, ilana, don't you find it strange that this Beijing platform for action didn't include the aging woman as one of the critical areas of concern? I mean, every woman will age the situation of elderly women, of aging women, is the result of the accumulated disadvantages throughout their life cycle. Yes, started with choosing when to give birth, how many to give birth, how you will give birth. You know your rights over your own body, not even birth, just choosing what you want to be.

Speaker 3 20:50

And there is intersectional view, because we're not all the same. There's the intersection of class, of ethnicity, of religion. Look at it as, as I said, accumulated disadvantage to alter life, which means that you have to start with you know the basic sexual and reproductive health care, and then you have education, you have economic opportunities, you have health care and I said, oh, but there are laws. You know many laws about the seniors, about this, I said they're not silver bullets, right? You know the many laws about the seniors, about these, I said they're not silver bullets, right? You cannot just tell a woman at 76 who is poor, who has no after-tales care. You can just tell them, oh, but there's the law which will give you, you know X amount of money which will give you health insurance. No, it's a life cycle approach, absolutely.

Speaker 2 21:45

I often think about this now, that if you look at older women and you see the marginalization, the greater impoverishment, what some people call the invisibility, all of the different intersections that happen in their circumstances, their lives, their identities, you think about the life cycle, but we're really not working as a community of a community where age is not what defines how we come together, our solidarity, our seeing one another and including one another. So for me, looking at older women, it's like a magnifying glass shows us where have we arrived, really, if older women are in so much trouble in terms of their rights, their visibility, their inclusion? So to me, it's a powerful. It's a powerful way of thinking about it, because we start so often, as we should, with girls and young women. Of course, as you say, you have to start at the beginning, but the end of the story of our older lives tells us something yeah, you put it very well you've done and you've seen a lot in very challenging and often heartbreaking circumstances the situation of women's lives in all its diversity in many different places.

Working with Grassroots Women

Speaker 2 22:55

So you carry a lot of stories, you carry a lot of women with you and it's so interesting to hear you're writing your memoir. I'm so happy to hear this. By the way, now that you're older and you've you've had this quite extraordinary life experience and career, how do you think about it? How do you feel it just carrying so many women with you?

Speaker 3 23:13

I guess my realization is that I've not done enough. You know, I have been in touch with all these women and I have heard their stories and I have approached it more really from top bottom. You know it's not bottom up. We have programs, violence against women, we have all this livelihood programs for women. I carry that with me. Yeah, I was good at policy and normative framework. I was good at that. I was good at research. I was good at that. I was good at research. I was good at writing. I was good for advocacy.

Speaker 3 23:51

But the path I took was a little bit different, because I know their stories and I thought policy will change their situation. But no, it does not. You know, I did a research on the women combatants. I realized, oh my Lord, all this comprehensive agreements, all this normalization process, all this basic law didn't really change their life situation. You say that, though the normalization calls for paying 100,000 pesos for a combatant that's about maybe $2,500. They were given to the men, not to the women combatants. But we worked hard for those agreements, we worked hard for those laws. But where is it? You carry those stories, you research in them. You tried and said, oh, maybe it is through legislative reforms, policy reforms, no, no, because anyway those were not implemented. So that's why I told you at the start that if there is any realization for me now, it is that, well, you better work with the community women, with the grassroots women. You know they always say about that. In the Philippines you have a rice cake called bibingka. There's fire below and there's fire above to cook it Now.

Speaker 3 25:13

If you don't need putting the fire above and the fire below is not rekindling, you will not come up with a good rice cake. You will only come up with a half-baked rice cake cake. You will only come up with a half-baked rice cake. So if I were to live all over again as a feminist, I'd rather work with aggressors rather than work with the legislators, or this official Work with them maybe, but you shouldn't neglect the base. It's really more listening and learning from them rather than talking to them and teaching them.

Speaker 2 25:49

So it's clear that it's the fire from underneath. That's the next chapter. You're not finished. No, not yet.

Speaker 3 25:59

Not ready to say goodbye world no thank goodness, because we need you.

Speaker 2 26:03

We need you. You can't say it yet.

Closing Thoughts and Reflections

Speaker 3 26:07

Not ready to do that. No, and thank you, Ilana, for this conversation. I need it. I need it to really, you know, not really wrap up, but to put my work in perspective. I like the way you put it. I mean, at least somebody now understands what I've done, you know, from working in the university to advocacy, to monetary policy. At least somebody frames it that way. So, thank you so much, I really enjoyed it.

Speaker 2 26:37

Thank you. I do too, and I feel like it's very special to talk to you and to hear about all of this. I'm going to go away and reflect a lot about the things that you've said, because for all of us, we get the benefit of your life story and all of your insights. We can carry it and integrate it into our own thinking and our own pursuits.

Speaker 3 26:55

Thank you, thank you, thank you very much. I really love this.

Speaker 2 27:00

If you enjoyed this podcast, let me introduce you to another podcast that I think you might really like to tune into Older Women and Friends, hosted by Jane Leder. That's L-E-D-E-R. It takes a deep dive into the joys and challenges of being an older woman. You can listen to it at janeledernet or wherever you like to get your podcasts. Enjoy.