James Laughlin 00:00

Welcome to lead on purpose. I'm James Laughlin, former seven-time world champion, musician, and now an executive coach to global leaders and high performers. In every episode, I bring you an inspiring leader or expert to help you lead your life and business on purpose. Thanks for taking the time to connect today on investing yourself. Enjoy the show.

James Laughlin 00:39

How much time do you invest in your brain? Well, look, our brain dictates so many things. It's our largest asset. We've got to look after it, right? But often we're putting things on our skin and we're doing all these other things that care for our bodies, but our brain dictates so much. I came across a product a week ago called Flow State and it's made such a difference. And look, they offer functional mushrooms that sharpen cognition, they really boost energy and definitely strengthen immunity. And they actually use one of the key ingredients, it's lion's mane. Right? So, the lion's mane is popular among really peak-performing athletes and those wanting an edge. It's known as the brain mushroom. And it's currently being studied extensively for its nerve growth factor potential as a means to ease the symptoms of Alzheimer's and for treating inflammation in the body. Look, the thing I love about these products, they don't taste like mushrooms, you can mix them in with your tea. They're a great replacement for coffee, but I actually love the P.M. Mushroom Blend, the evening one. It helps me sleep. And to know that my brain is getting extra nutrients is just the next level. The one thing that's really important for me is what's in there. So, they've tested heavily at Hill laboratories for heavy metals, pesticide residue, and microbial, and also at Massey University for active compounds. So, I urge you, if you love your brain, and want to go the extra mile to nurture it, head on over to flowstate.nz and you can use the coupon code lead on purpose to get 15% off.

James Laughlin

I don't know about you, but sometimes I get home. And I think what I am eating tonight is the last thing I want to do. I don't know what to cook, I don't know what's in the cupboard or in the fridge. And it often leads to poor choices like ordering some takeaway. So recently, Carolyn and I started eating green dinner table, and it's absolutely amazing. After a long day, when I'm knackered, I know that when I get home, there's going to be a great recipe and all the ingredients I need right there in the fridge. And look, I absolutely love it. I've been doing it for several months. And it means I don't have to think at the end of the day. And I just know that I'm going to get good, nutritious, wholesome food. And look, it's plant-based, which has so many benefits. So, if you're a meat eater, perhaps you might want to start on maybe just three, a three-day plan. So, you've got three evening meals for you and your partner or you and your family depending on what option you want to go for. But the food is delicious. It's so nutritious, and it means we don't need to think. And as leaders of families, teams, and organizations, what we put in our bodies is just so crucially important, so I urge you to go and check it out and I want to give you 20% off your first order. So, you can go to greendinnertable.co.nz and use the coupon code purpose.

James Laughlin 03:51

Why are there only two black women CEOs in the top 500 companies in America? Well, Angel Henry and I sit down today, and she expresses why there are just dents in the concrete ceiling for black women in corporate America. Angel is the author of dents in the ceiling tools women and allies need to break through which provides a firsthand account of women of color working in tech and corporate America and how they navigate sexism, racism, bullying, forging allies, and rebounding resiliently throughout their careers. The book has sold 1000s of copies and is a 2022 book excellence first-place award winner. It was incredible and our conversation went deep. I learned a lot as a white male. I am constantly trying to seek input and understanding of the world around me and different people of different gender, different ethnicities, different backgrounds, and today was just a phenomenal conversation with Angel so I know you're going to love it. So please, sit back and enjoy the show.

James Laughlin 05:13

Angel, a massive Welcome to the lead on-purpose podcast.

Angel Henry 05:18

Thank you so much.

James Laughlin 05:19

I'm so delighted to connect with you got such an incredible message, I want the masses to hear it. And once we get into it, I think it's going to become apparent that you know what we have a lot of work to do, less talking and more work as leaders when it comes to diversity when it comes to inclusion. So, before we do get started, I'd love to ask you, when you think of leadership, what comes to mind,

Angel Henry 05:44

The image that comes to mind is actually that of an eagle, a bird that's flying pretty high. And they have a vision, they have a viewpoint of the area and where they want to go. And then they have to, they have to fly down and come down and share that vision with others that don't quite have the same perspective. And so, if they, when they depart when they fly away when they move on in the future, wherever life takes them, that they have left that vision, that perspective with others to carry on.

James Laughlin 06:26

That's beautiful. I've never heard it described like that. That's so incredible. I love it. I can just picture it. It's incredible. And what has shaped you as a leader, you know, what, what have been some of those pivotal moments in your life, and the experience that has shaped you as the leader you are today?

Angel Henry 06:41

Oh, my goodness, absolutely. The first person that comes to mind when you ask me is my grandmother. I am her namesake. And her name was Lavora. And my real name is Lavora. But I went by Angel. And she helped raise me. And she was from Kentucky in the, you know, Southern mid part of the United States. She grew up in Jim Crow, South Kentucky, segregated south where she had to sit on the back of the bus and drink from different water fountains and use different facilities. And that experience of growing up as a little girl, as well as the war that she went through, really shaped her. And all of the little things that she says and how her perspective of the world and how she treated people, she ended up being a nurse. And her love for and caring for people just was imparted to me and really helped to shape me in terms of how I treat others and that servant leadership. We didn't know the name of back then obviously, but now I look back and like yeah, Grandma was the one that taught me how to be a servant leader.

James Laughlin 07:59

It's incredible. And what I love about that is, you know, some people go straight to the big names and the big, famous, you know, historical people, but actually, it's the real true role models, the people who influenced us our parents and grandparents, right?

Angel Henry 08:13

Absolutely, absolutely, yes. And I was blessed too when I think about my career, because I'm like, I've got 20 years in tech. And I look back over those special folks that were either supervisors or peers of mine, that really just maybe saw something in me and pulled it out or helped get me an opportunity or helped advise me and groom me. There's a handful of those people that have left the mark and left their mark to this day. And it was so cool. A couple of years ago, this was years after I left this company, I was at a pharmaceutical company. And a lady sat down with me. And as I was talking, she said, you know, you remind me of this lady named Joanne, like how you talk and how you express yourself and even the words that you use. Did you ever work with her? And my face just lit up because I'm like, yes, she was my supervisor for years. And she was the lady who was such a, you know, pivotal role model for me and helped change the trajectory of my career. And for you to say without knowing that we knew each other for you to say that I remind you of her was such a compliment.

James Laughlin 09:31

That's incredible. And it says a lot about Joanne in terms of her leadership influence that she influenced you in such a powerful way that you walked talk and thought like that. It's incredible. Yeah. Love it. Now, let's talk a little bit about that say that Jim Crow era and segregation. We know look at this a lot of people go okay, well, that was then. But this is now, and we're all good. And everyone's got equal opportunities and the workplace is so diverse and equal, right? I love that you're laughing your head off right now. Because it's the exact opposite, right? So, tell me a little bit about your experience coming through the tech industry as a black female.

Angel Henry 10:15

Oh, James, we don't have enough time. Let me share with you the highlights, okay? So, it's so varied and so vast that as I started writing it one night, I couldn't stop. And that's actually what led to the premise of the book dense in the ceiling. Because of all the different experiences that I've had, many were pretty negative, and in some cases, blatant discrimination and very toxic. So overall, when I look back at my career in tech, it truly is. It mimics the industrial area that my grandparents went through in the United States. They're like I said, my grandmother and my grandfather met in Kentucky, but their families were actually from deeper in the south. So, Georgia and Alabama perspectively. Their families migrated north to the coal mines of Kentucky to you know, what are the different industrial complexes and factories in the northern part of the country, and what they found was a two-sided coin. One, it opened up an opportunity, it allowed for safer areas, and the opportunities lead to more money, which allowed them to get their first house and their family, allowed them educational opportunities, it opened up social and other economic areas for them to you know, own maybe own their own small businesses and things like that. So, that was a good part, the not-so-good part, the part that they really chose not to talk about and to ignore and keep silent or push down. Were the unfair practices that the inequities in pay, which we absolutely still have not just in the United States, but worldwide where you have the same person with very similar experience and background doing the same job but being paid vastly different. And when I say vastly people think when they think the wage gap, they think, oh, well, every white male makes $1 every female makes maybe a percentage of that maybe 70 cents, but that starts adding up to where it's 1000s of dollars difference over time, especially over one's lifetime. So, when you think about all the disparities, the blatant racism, the inequities in advancement in the company, you think, okay, that's the industrial age. That's the 40s 50s 60s. That's over. Well, no, James, we just hit the repeat button. We literally have just repeated everything when it comes, especially in tech and in the software space. That's where I come from. It's mostly software development. And when you really take a step back and look at it, what you see is the majority of underrepresented populations, that means LGBTQ that means brown folks, black folks, women, we are traditionally coming in as analysts, associates, entry-level workers, right? In droves. So that's where you get all the girls can code and black girls can code, and you know Latin Mex girls can code and all these different associations and nonprofits that are really doing their best to try to attract and then bring in women and underrepresented populations. Great. The problem, James, is that these organizations have no clue what to do with us once we get there. I mean, you have to think about it, those that they're bringing in. And I don't mean to toot my own horn, but we're the cream of the crop. Were the ones that got A's in school, were the ones that were doing extra, right? We're the ones that went to grad school at night and worked in sacrifice in order to get the degree or get the technical certification, which did not come easy. And now once we have it, guess what, that just gets us an interview that just gets us looked at because we are a part of the fraternities and the golf club associations and some of those informal networks that allow traditional straight white men, that gets them closer to the proximity of power and closer to those that make hiring and promotion decisions. We just don't have that proximity. So, we have to get in, right straight on our own true merit, which is degrees certification, and varied experiences. Once we get that interview, and we get looked at and they hire us, and they're like, oh, my gosh, yes, he or she is top of the field. But where have you been all my life? I can't tell you how many times I have heard that in an interview with a white guy. Where have you been? Oh, my goodness, we've been looking for someone just like you. Really? Okay. There's like, 10. Me, I need it but okay. So, then I get in, and they have no support, no mentorship, oftentimes we are scraping together if we're lucky enough to scrape together a budget and a team to enact the ideas and make the changes that we want. And that whole pipeline that I just described, it's just chock full of bias, right, some of its conscious, some of it, a very good amount of it are unconscious. And so, where we make the mistake, where the mistake has been made in the past, I think, is there's been too much a little bit of an over-rotation on the focus of the individual hiring manager, the individual person, that person has bias. So, let's train the bias out of them. Let's bring in someone to do a keynote or workshop or training, let's help our people managers attack their personal bias. And then once they do that, then we won't have any issues. Well, that's just one piece of it. The true piece, the real piece, James is the infrastructure, the processes, that the HR meaning the human resource processes, the financial processes, those are the true pillars of when you start to peel back the onion and look at how we attract our talent, how we hire, how we promote, who is a part of the interview panel, if there even is a panel or if it's just down to one person? And oh, by the way, how do we retain our employees, even if we're not able to give them extra money or an extra promotion? How are we maintaining and retaining them during the years that they're enrolled, when you really look at the structures that are in place and the decision-making criteria that are in place? That's what's flawed. That's what we need to change. Here's a great example. I just heard this on a panel literally just a couple of months ago, a top executive was looking through the questions that they asked interviewers, as they are seeking to go from maybe director mid-director level to VP level or vice president level. And one of the questions on there was, how committed are you to the necessary changes in training and personal advancement that you will have to make in order to succeed as a vice president? How committed, right? Like, give me a range? Give me a number, right, like, like, and they're looking for somebody to be all in. So that the answer is the right answer, in case you didn't know, James is 100%. That's the right answer, right? Unfortunately, what was happening is women who were married, and mothers were not answering that question correctly. Because in their mind, they're thinking, why I'm committed, but not 100%. I don't want to lie and tell them that I can give 100% because I have two kids at home, or I have a husband that travels. So, you know, I'm 60% all the way there, right? They were being truthful. And that was actually screening them out. And so long story short, what you had over time, is an inequity of men at VP in this company at that level. And women just kind of languishing at that mid-director level, they really weren't getting past that point.

James Laughlin 19:37

And that's much to me, it's such a shame for everyone. Not just the individuals who miss out, but the company, that people that are the customers of the company, because when you've got a bunch of the same people and in this case, it's lots of white males. Literally, it's an echo chamber, and they can hear each other, and they echo back to each other to confirmation bias constantly. They can't see blind bots, diversity is the answer to discovering our blind spots, right?

Angel Henry 20:04

Yes, yes. And what's, what is a conundrum for us that we really got to try to crack the nut on why this is happening? There's plenty of data. There are plenty of stats, there are plenty of reports. I mean, McKinsey CTI lean, in each Harvard Business Review, the list goes on. It's an alphabet soup of organizations and companies and Ivy League schools that have done this. And the answer is always the same, more diverse and inclusive environments simply make more money. And so what I struggle with what the assumption that I made going into this that I was woefully wrong about James is that I assumed, and I think when I look back on it, I was probably told this wrong information. But I assumed that men and white men in particular, were, were 100% focused on making money. I thought that if you could do something to bring more customers to get more wins, save money for them, whatever, it was something to do around something financial, that that was what made them tick. And if you got good at that, then you were golden. And so I couldn't understand why I was saving money or you know, helping to win deals or E&M Looking at my counterparts, they're doing the same. Why are we not advancing? And the truth of the matter is that what makes them tick isn't the financial peace or the money. I have absolutely seen and witnessed it with my own eyes. Men step over, you know, contracts or not go with working with someone. Because James, they weren't comfortable with them. It's actually their comfort level that is really what makes them tick. And so, the more comfortable you can make their business, professionally, the better off you're going to be. But if you come as a change agent, if you come in the door talking about, I'm here to make a change, I'm here to make things better. I'm here to turn this ship around, you actually are just kind of putting something on your forehead to just say, I'm about to make you uncomfortable. And they're going to move away from that. They'll talk about a good game, they'll shake their head, and they'll say yes, and organizations and leaders will say yes, yes, we want that we want this change. And I'm sure the diversity, equity inclusion leaders and the HR leaders that are listening to this right now are probably all shaking their heads vigorously because they're the ones that have been charged with leading the change. And then they turn back a year or two later and they're so frustrated because they're thinking, well, the board or the C suite gave me this charge to make the change. But we haven't, we haven't really seen it statistically significantly move the needle. Why is that? They said they wanted it but every time I go to ask for money or go to ask for approval for an extra headcount or go to actually make a difference and make this real, I get pushback, or it becomes less of a priority. Why is that? Even though they're the very ones that asked me to go do this work. Well, it's because it's going to make them uncomfortable. And once they realize that they themselves are going to have to change, then that's where you start seeing the resistance.

James Laughlin 23:50

Yeah, I can totally understand and relate to that. I mean, when you look at the six core human needs, certainty is one of those and most male high ego leaders’ certainty is like one of their key drivers, when there's anything that presents uncertainty or variety that they don't like, they push back because they want to be, as you say, comfortable. They want to be in control.

Angel Henry 24:15

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's all an illusion. I mean, we know that right? We all know that, but it doesn't stop people from striving for it. So, I think the name of the game that I've come up with that I've leveraged seems to be really working very well. And I'll give you an example of how this can work for your listeners I'm leveraging all of my change management and IT project management background that I've amassed in an area called Agile and agile for all the techies out there. Yes, if they're thinking that's software development, or that's a project management methodology, what is she talking about? Well, when you really break it down, after you get through the ceremonies and processes in technical terms, it really is just about a mindset. It really is just about how we take a big change a big mammoth change like culture, and changing someone’s culture is a mammoth change, right? I mean, if you're talking about an organization that is hundreds or 1000s of people that maybe it's been around for decades, that culture did not become what it is right now. Overnight, it's not going to change overnight. So when you think about how I change my culture, automatically, my anxieties, I'm just saying it, right? I'm starting to get nervous about where you start. And it's like, oh, no, just take a step back, change your perspective. Instead of trying to do something big. Let's just pick one thing. Let's pick one area, out of all the things that we can do, pick one. So, for example, let's say we want to pick recruiting, hey, we need to recruit differently. And we need to figure out how we can attract more women or more ethnically diverse or culturally diverse or racially diverse people into our organizations to even apply for the jobs, right, we're not talking about hiring, we're not talking about changing the interview process. We're just talking about how we can attract them so that we can have a diverse candidate pool from which we can select. Okay, well, let's take a step back and think about where we are currently recruiting from. And usually, do companies have schools, universities, and associations that they're comfortable with, that they have established a relationship with? Well, we know the types of students that come from these associations or universities. So, we like how they shape grooming and molding them. We like what they teach them, they're a perfect fit for our culture and our organization. So, let's just keep, let's just keep fishing out of that same pond. Well, if you keep doing what you've always done, you're going to get what you've always got. So, let's do it differently. Let's make connections and associations with different schools and different universities that attract and promote and retain more women or people of color, or those that are, you know, different from a religion, race, or ethnicity standpoint, let's focus on connecting with them. And let's see if we can bring in some of their students to do internships or entry-level positions, and just try out to see if there may be a match, right? And if there isn't right away, you don't abandon it. You just iteratively and incrementally tweak it, right to say, to give them feedback to say, hey, that first group that you bought in that first five, they were great, but they weren't. What a great piece of feedback we usually get they weren't technical enough, we usually get that, especially in the technology industry, right? They just weren't technical enough. What does that even mean? Oh, well, it means that we want them to learn more about engineering and processing. We need them to take more classes there. Okay, great. The university would love that feedback. I know because I'm an adjunct at a university here in the States. We love to hear feedback like that from our local employers because now we know exactly what classes to put into the coursework. We know exactly what feedback to give the students to say, hey, you know what, you may want to drop that marketing class and take a technical class if this is the type of job that you want to get when you graduate because this is what employers are looking for. And now the next group of students that come through, they're the ones that maybe have a stronger engineering background or developing or coding background. So now we have the type of profile of students that we like and that we need. Great, right? So that that's one little tweak, that's one little thing that you can do that literally just takes a matter of weeks. And then once you bring them in there, again, you just tweak after every internship or every summer, every phase that you bring in students. Now you, that's just one thing. Okay, now we've done that now we've connected with different universities and associations. Now, let's start looking at our interview process. Okay, now we can focus on that. What I find the issue is that in organizations and offices like diversity offices, there's so much work to be done, James that the initial thought is that we got to boil the ocean. And there are just too many initiatives to focus on. And it's just too much. It's too much for senior leaders to really wrap their hands around and really focus on one change and make a, like I said, statistically significant difference in one area. And it's a psychological trick. I wish in hindsight that I majored in psychology, by the way, because all of this is just all it's just all Psych 101. It's just a trick. Once I had one win, once I did something, well, once I got a phenomenal hire from this new organization, or university that I did, guess what, I'm going to keep doing it over and over again, of course. And so now we're just leveraging all the good stuff that we're we've done. And now it's kind of like us a little psychology trick to say, hey, that thing worked. So, let's just do more of that.

James Laughlin 31:03

I love that. And it's interesting when I think of the S&P 500. So, lots of people globally invest, because there are top 500 companies in North America. So, it's diverse, it's a great thing to invest in, and it kind of mitigates a lot of risks. So, when I think of that, I'm like, well, it must have a very diverse range of CEOs. So, I don't know, do you know, do you have any input? Okay, I love you. You're laughing at me again, like James, that's a crazy question. So how many do you know that are the stats around the diversity? How many black female CEOs do we have in the top 500 companies in America?

Angel Henry 31:38

Wow. I mean, you were really hitting up my alley here, James. My whole talk, I have a signature talk called ceiling shattering tools for women. That's my signature talk. And that's what I dive into. And you must have checked this out on YouTube. I don't know how you knew this. But yes. And on one of the decks, I have a slide that shows. It's funny, but it's so sad but true. It shows about the late 18th, I would say maybe the early 1900s, a group of the US, top company leaders, and of course, the picture has all white men and one white female, and she's in the corner holding a tray. So obviously, she's the secretary, right? Wow. Fast forward to a picture that I show that is of 2022. And it's a picture and it's an heir, literally an heir more diverse in terms of folks that are from, you know, South Asian descent. A few more women, right? Most when I say women, I mean, white women. Right, so we've got about a 4 to 8% increase there. To African American women. Wow. Wow, TIAA-CREF, and Walgreens too.

James Laughlin 33:07

that's mind-blowing. What? How does that even happen in this day and age?

Angel Henry 33:15

Exactly. There are so many variables. But I personally lump them all together. In the bias category. It's biased. And so, what happens is you have to think about how we define leadership in the corporate and pour from for proctor sector as well as non for profit, athletics, all these associations and industries that are traditionally male-dominated, and that absolutely includes health care, because I even had that thought again, my grandmother was a nurse. So, I'm thinking most females are most nurses are female, right? Yes, yes, they are. A lot of the techs and nurses and support staff in a hospital system are female. But when you start looking at the doctors, when you start looking at Chiefs of Staff, when you start looking at who's on the board that's making decisions around salary, around promotion, around who gets paid what. I had a female doctor tell me that as an OBGYN, she could take out someone's pancreas or kidney. And if that someone is a man, she's going to get paid almost twice as much as if that patient was a female, same organ, the same body part being touched, the same amount of time, same doctor. Same degree, and the same procedure, but if it's a male patient, the reimbursement is going to be more than if it's a female patient, so I digress. So, when we talk about bias in our decision-making system, the first thing that we start talking about is leadership and how we define a leader and when you close your eyes, and back to that first question, you asked me, What is it when you think of a leader now I personally happen to think of an animal. I personally think of an eagle or a bird flying high. But that's rare. Unfortunately, when people close their eyes and think of a leader they think of in the US, Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos, or Steve Jobs of Apple, right in the tech sector we think of the big guys is what we call them that lead these huge monstrous tech companies like Dell and Microsoft and others. So that means okay, typically, we're talking about straight white, heterosexual, white, Christian or Protestant, maybe Catholic men. Okay, great. So that's now my mental archetype of a leader. So, if someone comes across my proverbial table, and I'm looking at a resume, or I'm interviewing someone via zoom or Google meet, and I see them, and they automatically don't look like who I'm expecting them to be the role that I'm trying to fit, I just triggered bias, right? Another thing that biases play in is if you look at leaders, if you look at HR, if you look in marketing, if you look in communications, a lot of those leaders, a lot of those chief heads are female. But those are what organizations consider support roles. Still, they can have a chief in front of them all they want they can be VP of whatever. But if it is a “support role” and not a cost center, excuse me, if it's a cost center, which meaning which means that they are costing the organization money, if they're not making money, which means that they're not a leader of product, if they're not the leader of sales, if they're not the leader of making money. Ah, how are they going to get to the CEO if they don't own their own budget? Or what we call P&L Profit and Loss Center? If they don't own that? How are they going to make a CEO? And let's put in one more hoop. Let's put in one more hoop. Let's say you do have you're lucky enough to be a female and you have run your own P&L. Oh, sorry, Lucy, it wasn't enough gems to run a $2 million P&L, yours was only 500,000. So, we're going to go with him, because he's managed more money. We're not going to ask if Jim ran that into the ground, we're not going to ask if he started off with a million and just you know, he grew it to two whereas you started off with nothing, right? And grew to what you have. Now, we're not going to ask those hard questions. We're not going to look at the past any deeper or peel back that onion. We're just going to go with our bias, notions, and decision-making criteria.

James Laughlin 38:31

I believe we should all be taking shots. Yes, you heard me right. Every morning, I take a double shot of nutrient rescue. The reason is the harmful Western diet of heavily processed food, combined with our busy stressful lives means that 60% to 70% of people are missing out on their five a day of fruit and veg. This micronutrient per diet has contributed to the modern epidemics of obesity, diabetes, heart disease, cancer, and dementia. The studies prove it. Look, 7% of people who take the nutrient rescue shots reported feeling better within the first month. That's because 100% of the ingredients in nutrient rescue products are 100% grown in New Zealand. But look, don't take my word for it, give it a try yourself using the code purpose, you will get a 15% discount, so head over to nutrientrescue.nz. And that 15% Discount goes across any of their superfoods, including their starter pack. So, cheers to you joining me for some shots.

James Laughlin 39:43

Oscar de la Renta put it perfectly. Fashion is about dressing according to what's fashionable. Style is more about being yourself. And that's one thing I always try to do is try to be myself whether I'm interviewing a former head of state, hanging with my family on the weekend, or working with some of my incredible clients. I try to always just be myself as much as possible. And part of that is dressing accordingly. But every now and then, a special occasion will call for some special fashion and I am by no means an expert on fashion. And that's why I'm delighted to partner with Munss. Munss is back and it's better than ever. Located in the beautiful tannery Emporium on Garland's Road in Christchurch. It offers a huge range for men with suits for hire and sale, ties, jeans, waistcoats, hats, sunglasses and more. So, for all of your mandatory needs, head along and check out at munss.co.nz 

James Laughlin 40:48

It’s just mind-blowing. And it's interesting, the whole idea of bias. I mean, I understand at a very basic level that we have bias built in to protect us. And that's centuries old. But actually, we don't need that bias. It's there and it's we can't remove it, but we can respond. And I think that the biases at some microsecond that when we see someone instantly we have this judgment “Am I safe”? And while they're attacking. How can we start to respond to our inbuilt bias in a way that actually gives people a fair opportunity?

Angel Henry 41:24

Absolutely. So, the first thing that I recommend everyone to do, well let me back up. So, I am blessed and favored to be in the space of linking arms, quite literally, globally, and certainly across the US and Canada with a plethora of other consultants and inclusion experts. And folks that have been doing this work for years, some folks that have just now gotten into space, but they are phenomenal people and we share information and exercises and you know background all the time in order to just help move the space. I mean, this is truly a space where people are absolutely in it. A good portion of folks that I've met is in it for the right reasons. And so, she won't mind if I share this, I tell her to do it all the time. Her name is Amy Waninger. And she's the author of bias. And I think I even have her book up here, somewhere on my yep, there it is right there. Hire beyond bias. And she has another book called network beyond bias. And she did this exercise with me. And so now our little group in the area, we do it all the time. And we call it the paper napkin exercise. And all you have to do is just grab literally little post-it notes or a piece of paper or even a napkin and just write down the people that are closest to you and your professional network. And so you’re the criteria, the things that you think about our who's the person who I helped get the job, who I help recommend for a job, or I may be made a recommendation for them, or I vouched for them, right in a job interview. Who was the last person that I helped do that just write down their name, who is the closest customer that I have a client, somebody that I really love and enjoy working with all the time just write down their name, who's my direct supervisor, who's a peer of mine that I love to work with, right? And you just jot down, and the last person, which is really critical, who's somebody that I mentor, right? Who's somebody that I pour into and share my experiences with and hope to help advance in their career, just jot down their name. And then you look, and you think about, is it all male? Are they all female? Are they all the same ethnicity? Do they all have the same background as me, meaning if I went to a four-year university, then did an internship, and then got a job in a corporation? Do they all have that same kind of story for the most part? Or did these people come from a different side of the tracks or poverty, or don't have a four-year degree at all? And they've never set foot in a college? What's their background? Do I even know what their story is? How well do I know these people? Do I even know if they're married and have kids or not? Or what side of town do they live on? How close are these people? How well do I know them in their background? And what are the general characteristics of them of these people who are in the network that's closest to me? And all it is James is that if you see where you're just a little bit heavy on one side and not the other meeting, oh my gosh, I wrote down all these names and I'm a male and everybody in my close network is male or oh my goodness, I'm Asian. And I realized that everybody in my close-knit network is Asian as well. Oh, my gosh, you start to see where you're missing, you have maybe had a blind spot in your area and your network and now you get the fun job of filling on that. So, I did this exercise when I first did it. Every single person was female, every single one yes, they may have had different ages, age ranges from young to seasoned professional. But for right, everybody was female. And I got to be intentional about making some closer connections with my male colleagues and male counterparts. And I did just that. But guess what, I was intentional about it, right? So, the next time I had a conversation with a gentleman at work, I actually set up a separate time after our work call to just get to know him. I learned so much that I had no idea how much we had in common. And now fast forward to this day, we're good friends.

James Laughlin 46:05

It's amazing.

Angel Henry 46:06

That's what we just that's all you need. Just to be intentional about being open to having a conversation with someone who has a different lived experience than you. Most white men become allies what I like to call active allies, right? Because there's a controversial term here in the United States ally ship, like, Are you really an ally? Can you call yourself an ally? Well, if you're an active ally, you are purposeful and intentional about helping someone that is different than you, right? And you're doing that on a very active regular basis. Well, I found the majority of straight white men who are active allies. It's because they brought someone that had a different lived experience close to them and sat down and really got to know them. And I again, I have been blessed with just by coincidence, there's a couple of times where I was intentional, but I've actually had more white men intentionally reach out to me to say, hey, let's grab a cup of coffee, let's have a conversation. And they're just authentic about their story to say, hey, I grew up in the Midwest in the United States. And I went to church with white folks, I went to school with white folks, I work around mostly white people, I really don't know much about the African American culture. And that's a problem for me. That shouldn't be that's kind of nuts. So, you know, hey, let's just say how did you even get to be here? How are you working at this company? How did you get to be in this space? How did you get to be speaking, you know, on this stage or speaking on this panel? And that's, and that leads, obviously, to not only a closer connection, but it can lead to my network being shared with their network. And now we have career opportunities. Now we have you know, and again, it's not just, it's not just those that ”have the privilege” are lending their privilege to those that don't know, it's a transfer of privilege, because I have privilege too I have connections too I know CIOs and CEOs as well, that if you're a consultant, I can get you in front of them and they can you can get some business from my network as well. So, this is an exchange. And so, it's not unequal in any way, shape, or form. And I think that's where people have that misnomer. So yeah, so I just love that exercise where it brings to bear, hey, I've got some work to do. And we all do. And, now I'm going to be intentional about filling the gaps in my network.

James Laughlin 49:03

That's so great. I really admire you for that. And I do truly agree that we all have that challenge. I spoke with Nabeela Ixtabalan. And so, she was at the time she was the CPO for Walmart, Canada. She's a 38-year-old Muslim, female, and just an incredible leader. And she talked about her challenges and struggles as a female leader. And now she's the COO of Walmart, Canada. But on our call, she said gyms tell me about the people you hang out with. Tell me what car to drive, and what neighborhood they live in. What are their interests I started talking about it while I literally, for the most part, hanging out with a mirror of myself? And so after that, I sat down and I said, Okay, I need to be intentional. I want to be around people that are much older and much younger than me, of different genders, and different ethnic backgrounds, and that's been a big intention this year alone just making sure I do that. And it's been enlightening. It's been exciting, it's been challenging. And I love it. So, to me, an ongoing challenge for me is to ensure that I'm not just surrounding myself with people that are going to echo back what I think and feel.

Angel Henry 50:14

Exactly, exactly, and that is happening amongst those of us that are underrepresented in our area as well. So, there's this assumption, I mean, you know, you're African American, you understand the African American experience. But you know, as I just being a Christian, and growing up that much I was kind of in a bubble and didn't really have a lot of relatives or friends, or those that I knew of that were of a different sexual orientation. I just didn't know that that space, or, what challenges or considerations they dealt with growing up in their lives now. And so, you know, being intentional about, you know, sitting down and having real, authentic conversations about, you know, what are the challenges, what are the great things that are not all bad, it's not all negative by any stretch of the imagination? I was joking with my friends, and they were like, oh, who do you have lunch with? And I was like, oh, I had lunch with, you know, this, this male friend of mine, they're like, oh, you have lunch with him during the day, I was like, oh, don't worry about that, honey, his bag, and high heeled shoes were better than mine. And it was just such a funny conversation. But that opened up the door, because again, in my personal network, we just did not have a lot of folks that were of a different sexual orientation than us. And so, I am learning so much, right in terms of just the vocabulary and the difference. And so, I'm learning this, while I'm trying to teach as well. So, this is definitely a whole lift as we climb things. We all have a ton of work to do, and a lot to learn. But my cat, my thing is that it can be fun. It doesn't have to be overwhelming. It doesn't have to be this thing. It doesn't have to be the oh my god, we're going to training and you got a pit in your stomach. It's like, no, these relationships and connections are phenomenal. And it opens up a whole world of possibilities when it comes to work and personal, right? And that is just, you know, recreation. I mean, it just and your mind, your mind your life expands when you think of diversity and inclusion. So, I really want to change the way that we look at it and the feeling that you get when you say those words, that it's not negative, it's not hand slapping. It's like, no, I get to do this. I get to help other people. I get to have a human and human connection. And oh, by the way, work and make money to joy win, win, win, win.

James Laughlin 52:59

hundred percent. I 100%. Agree. And I love your mindset on it. We've talked about the agile mindset before, but it is a perspective on it. There's a mindset approach to and recently I believe the DEI recently had an edition which is “B” DEIB. So, diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. And I just think a lot about belonging. I'm an immigrant here in New Zealand. And for a long time, I didn't feel like I belonged. And in saying that, you know, I was a white male, and I was around many other white males. But yet still it took a long time to feel like I belonged. And I chatted about this with Todd Corley recently from Carhartt. And it was around being othered. And I'd never thought about this term. But it actually felt this feeling of I am another like, I'm a strange little Irish guy living in, in New Zealand 12,000 miles away. So, when do you think of being othered or being another? What comes to mind for you?

Angel Henry 54:00

Ironically, for me personally, being othered the first thing that comes to mind is not my gender or my race or ethnicity. It's my leadership style. So, what I have found is that I have traditionally not by any stretch of the imagination or all of this, but traditionally I have been surrounded from a work perspective by people, men and women who just think a certain way about business and how to get stuff done, right? Whatever it is, whether it's the project or the task at hand, or how to make more money or how to save money, whatever the case may be, whatever problem it is that we're working on. There's very much a system approach. There's very much we’ve always done this way. So, let's just start there. And my leadership style and approach are very inclusive, which means let's ask the people who we are, who we are enacting this change on, or who's going to be most impacted by the change, let's bring them into the conversation. Let's not reinvent the wheel, I always love to start with, well, who else has done it? That's where I start, I start with what company, what team, what organization, and what person has done this before, because my grandmother always said, there's nothing new under the sun. So, that means that whatever change it is that we're trying to do, someone somewhere has done it before or tried it. So, let's start there and get their lessons learned. And we either repeat what they did, hoping to get the same good outcome, or we take their lessons learned and tweak them, and use them for our benefit. I will distinctly remember; it was an internship. And when I was given feedback at the end of the internship, the guy his name was Mike. Mike was telling me that he was concerned that I was trying to take shortcuts. And that I wasn't willing to take the time to learn to do things myself. I was always asking other people how to do a task that he had given me to do. And I was crushed. I mean, that was the first piece of constructive feedback I had ever had, right? I'm a little, you know, internet in university. And I'm probably maybe only two years in. And when he said that I was thinking, Oh, my gosh, and then I sat there and I was struggling, thinking, I don't know how to do it any other way. If someone gives me a task, and I don't know how to do it, the only thing I can think to do is to ask someone who's done it before. And try to, you know, again, repeat it, try to try to do the same and learn that way. And I was so thankful. This is where advocates and sponsors come into play. I was so thankful to the lady who was representing me, in that internship from the company who plays me, she just very politely she was another African American female, and she was a bit older. And she just looked at him with the most confused face, right? And she kind of turned her head to the side, which is where I get that from whenever somebody says something stupid, I automatically kind of turn my head to the side, like, did you just say that? And she said very sweetly. She said, well, what's Angel supposed to do? Waste company time reinventing the wheel? If you give her a task to do and a senior executive or a senior developer, or someone else has already done it, why wouldn't she have learned from them? Isn't that what you hired her to do? He was silent. He said nothing else. But I struggled with that because that's not the first time that was not the only time that was the first time. But that was not the only time that I got feedback like that to say, hey, we just want to see your work a little harder.

James Laughlin 58:23

That's so interesting, that that's that perspective. So fixed. Wow. And here's something to think about a lot over the last few years, there's been this whole movement around, you know, we stand with black people. And we've seen a lot of tech companies say that. And there's been some things talked about some, you know, some programs brought on board to try and actually show that we stand with black people. But are we seeing great massive progress over the last couple of years?

Angel Henry 58:56

No, and that's not surprising. That was expected. Because for me, and again, I gotta quote grandma on this one. I told you, she's one of my she instilled this in me, the best predictor of future performance is past performance. So, I looked back, all the way back-to-back when the United States the North won the Civil War against the south, and we were supposed to go through reconstruction, and my ancestors were supposed to get 40 acres and a mule. And none of that ever happened. Not in my family. I think that, to my knowledge. There have been some families that have long gone back and found that they did get their 40 acres and a mule, but that was very rare. By and large, there were a lot of promises made to indigenous people in our country and to African Americans and to other immigrants and minorities that have come over in terms of what they are, what they're due to get, and what the powers that be are going to do for them. And it has very rarely come to fruition. So, those of us in the space knew that there was a small window of opportunity for us to strike to get as much as we could in terms of dollars in terms of making a lasting change in terms of getting as many browns, black, LGBTQ, underrepresented minorities or populations into senior leadership positions as we could. But we knew that the talk was the talk. We knew that. I was disappointed that I think I was teaching this back as far back as maybe 2018. If memory serves where the state of California and the United States had passed a bill or legislative act where it was a requirement that if you were a publicly traded company in that state, you had to have and I believe if memory serves, there were at least two females on your board at least two. And I was disheartened to find out that this past year, I guess they just seemed that as being unconstitutional. They just weren't going to force publicly traded companies to have a certain population on their board. Even though again, back to what we already talked about James, even though we know that having a diverse group of leaders, decision-makers, and change-makers, advising you from a business perspective, absolutely increases revenue time over time, over time we see those studies, we see those statistics. And again, it makes no common sense why that would even be a concern to say, well, yes, if we bring more women, and if we bring more, you know, brown and black folks, and we're going to make more money, yes, let's jump to that. Still no. Back to that, it's not comfortable. Back to those old habits and bias, that is proving to be the biggest challenge that we have to break through.

James Laughlin 1:02:27

Yeah, and it's our kids and our grandkids and the generations after that, that need to have a different experience in it. It starts with us having uncomfortable conversations, and taking uncomfortable actions. And I guess we need more leaders who you know, we take the S&P 500 that we need more of those white male leaders to actually go, hey, I want to get uncomfortable. I want to be really comfortable being uncomfortable. And I need to make changes and you need to start from the top down.

Angel Henry 1:02:57

Yeah, and being purposeful about not handing the legacy over to a mini-me. So, for those of you that are not in the United States, there's a pretty famous movie back in the day, the Austin Powers movie, and there was a villain an evil villain. And he had a little mini-me who was a duplicate of him, only a little person who absolutely was just as evil but just as funny. And oh, my goodness, we love our mini me's. We love those folks that are clones of us so that we can just be the next oh, we're going to the next generation, right? That he reminds me so much of myself. We went to the same university, we're a part of the same fraternity. His dad golfs with, you know, my brother’s club, right? Literally, we're a part of the same club. And on a surface level, there's really nothing wrong with that, per se. I mean, inherently, there's nothing wrong with that to say, hey, there's somebody that looks like you that reminds you of you, and you want to help them? Well, there's nothing wrong with that. But the problem is that there are too many of the same kind at the leadership and top executive ranks and decision and it had decision-making power, which is not an acceptable practice. I can't allow these individuals to continue to grow more and many me's because again, we will just keep getting what we've always got. If we want to disrupt if we want to change if we want to do it differently. We're going to have to be intentional about looking outside of our own personal network, diversifying it, and then grooming sponsoring, hiring, promoting recommending, advising, and guiding all of those things that fall under mentorship and sponsorship, we're going to have to be purposeful about doing that for somebody that doesn't look like us.

James Laughlin 1:05:12

Good advice. And I'd like to, just before we wrap up, ask a few more questions if that's all good. I've got one that I'm thinking about here. And we fast forward 10 years. And you and I reconnect, we're sitting down chatting, and you are so excited about the state of the nation. You're like, James, oh, my god, the diversity, the equity inclusion, it's just, it's the way it should be. I'm so delighted we're here. What would you be seeing around you for you to be able to say that when you look around, what would you see?

Angel Henry 1:05:41

Oh, my goodness, James, no one's ever asked me that before Oh, envisioning a utopia. I think, oh, my goodness, I think what I would see what I would love to help create and foster and bring forth in our Well, number one, let's change the slide, my slide would be different, right? I would be, I would be in a job, where I would get to be a history teacher. That's what my colleagues and those that do this work, we get to say, all the great things that we've done, and share those lessons learned with the world, right? With other countries and entities that are trying to do the same work. And so we wouldn't be saying, Here's how we've done it. And the first thing is, my slide would be different, I would say, hey, for the last 10 years, I've been looking at the same slide of the leaders of the S&P all looking the same. And now I've got this new slide, where everyone is different. There's, you know, people that are neurodivergent on this slide, there are people who are wheelchairs on this slide, there's brown folks, black folks, women, you know, folks from different countries, there's, it's truly a melting pot, right or Cornucopia whatever analogy you want to give of different people. And as a result, these companies have changed with which have been, you know, melded over into other industries. And also especially moved into the education space right into our schools. And the utopia for me personally would be that my son and daughter, won't have to have conversations with them. I won't have to sit down with my little girl and my little boy and explain to them what they're going to have to do in order to prepare themselves for a world that is not ready to receive them. That does not value them. I won't have to have that conversation. And other parents like me won't have to have that conversation.

James Laughlin 1:08:02

That's beautiful. I cannot wait for that day. And as you share that, how will you feel? When you can feel like that what are the feelings that are going come up?

Angel Henry 1:08:15

I will not have to run from a life that I don't want. Right now, James quite transparently, I seek to escape the world that I live in. Because of the world I live in, I wake up and have sales calls and conversations with organizations that are struggling, that are seeking to mature their inclusion practices. And I hear time after time frustrated individuals and leaders that are trying to make a change and it's not going anywhere. And they're looking to me to help them make it real, make it stick. And that's weighty, that's kind of weighty. This is emotional work because I'm dealing with a lot of negative emotions. And I'm dealing with I'm hearing a ton of stories; I can't tell you how many stories I hear on a daily basis of women or underrepresented folks that have or currently experiencing some form of discrimination or being in a toxic work environment. And I have to seek to escape that. And I actually have to get better at figuring out ways to do that in a positive way. So, at night, I don't carry that with my family or carry. You know, they know right away. My daughter is an empath. So, she knows immediately if I've had a rough day. I mean, she just walks in the door from school and she's like, Oh Mommy, what happened? You see it on my face. And it's because I had just got off the call with a rough you know, with a rough call with maybe an African American woman who was passed over for promotion or who was fired from the company for a minor infraction or from nothing at all, she doesn't know why she was let go. And so, she's now coming to me for coaching services on what to do next. After I hear something like that, it takes me back to when it happened to me. And so, it's a little bit of like, I guess, like PTSD, right? Where it's like, oh, my gosh, I gotta relive the time that that white manager yelled at me when I was eight and a half months pregnant, or I'm reliving that time when I was passed over for something where I was a shoo-in for and they really didn't give me a good explanation for why. Or it took me twice as long to get that promotion to people manager because there were more hoops that I had to jump through. As I hear stories like that of women and minorities on a daily basis, it automatically takes me back to that space and that feeling that it had when it happened to me. And so, I don't want to carry that energy into my family when I step outside these doors. But sometimes I do. So, I really need to think about and I encourage other practitioners to really think about creating safe space creating, you know, you go in and you meditate or you do yoga or count, you know, what is it go light some candles and you know, have a hot cup of tea, whatever, whatever positive thing that you can do to help restore your energy, where you don't feel like you have to escape the world that's out there. And right now, James, I feel like there are many days where I feel like I just want to escape.

James Laughlin 1:11:37

Well, I'm looking forward to when we can fast forward and the world is different. And you've got an incredible movement of people that are moving with you and creating that difference. I look forward to celebrating that with you. And I want to be a part of that journey and support it in any way that I can. So let me start by you know, there's going to be a listener right now that's listening, going, how do I connect with Angel, my company or my organization, we need to work with her. We need her to come and help us. So, what's the best way for someone to connect with you?

Angel Henry 1:12:06

Absolutely. So, I joke and say I'm on the internet Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, you'll find YouTube you'll find me everywhere. But I live, which is probably bad. I shouldn't say this. I live on LinkedIn, that is my home, and that's my space. But if you just go to www.angel-henry.com, you'll find me you can also find me at www.dentsintheceiling.com, that'll take you to my book page, which will still take you to my website. And if you get to those, if you get to the website, you'll be able to, you know, pop in your information, and we'll send you a little freebie there. And you can also you know, kind of do a contact me to reach out that way, the email address to get directly to my AA is going to be info@angelsspeaking.com. And that's two s's in the middle. So that'll get you right into my inbox super-fast. Or just reach out to me on LinkedIn, L. Angel, Henry, and you again, you know, you've got the right person, because I'll have more initials after my name than in my name.

James Laughlin 1:13:29

I did notice that. My partner Caroline said, so what is this initial name? And I was like, I don't know, I'm going to find out. What about this one? I don't know. I'm going to find that I just love it. You're committed to growth, excellent education, like Yeah, more than anybody I've ever met. So, it's so cool. But I'm going to put all those links in the show notes so that people can go, and I know most people are listening on their phones right now. So, if you're not driving, just hit the button, go, and buy the book. You got to get the book, you got to understand at a deeper level what angel is doing and her mission that she's on. And he'll just ask one last question. Before we wrap up. So, we were too fast forward many, many years into the future. It's your last day on earth. You know, it's your last day. And like, you know, it's your last five minutes. And a very, very young person in your family, maybe a grandchild or a great-grandchild comes up to you and asks, what can I do to lead my life on purpose? What advice would you give them?

Angel Henry 1:14:34

Follow God, follow your heart. Don't listen to what men tell you to do. Don't listen to those outside voices that will distract you from your purpose. Just close your eyes and listen to that still quiet, small voice that's going to guide you because you don't have to be afraid of big as your gifts will make way for you, your gifts are something unique that God has given you to fulfill your purpose on this earth. And you absolutely are expected to make a living off of your gifts. So, whether that's a musical ability, training, teaching, hospitality, or whatever gift God has given you use that to live out your purpose.

James Laughlin 1:15:34

That's amazing. That's beautiful. Well, great advice. Thank you so much. And I'll be sure to get the team to take that little clip and send it to you. So, you can keep that for those loved ones in your life. It gives beautiful advice.

Angel Henry 1:15:45

Thank you hard, hard-earned, because I tell you 10 years ago, Angel would have never said anything like that. But I have been on a journey for probably the past five-plus years now. Of looking inward and being very introspective and following my heart. And that is it's all about inclusion, it's all about treating people like humans. And we absolutely can do that in business and make money as well. They are not mutually exclusive. It's not an either, or you can treat people with respect and dignity, and love them and be human and be vulnerable and be empathetic, and still do business and make money and make a profit. They may not either-or proposition. So, you got to work to dispel that.

James Laughlin 1:16:46

100%. I'm on a mission with you. And thank you for letting me into your world. And for all of the listeners as well, I know that the listener that's listening right now would have just enjoyed it so much. So deep gratitude.

Angel Henry 1:16:57

Thank you, thank you so much for your platform and for all the work that you do. I really, really love your work. And I'm so happy to be a part of your network now.

James Laughlin 1:17:06

Thank you so much. We will talk soon again; I think this is the first of many conversations. 

Angel Henry 

Awesome, thank you!

James Laughlin 1:17:29

Thanks for tuning in today and investing in your own personal leadership. Please hit that subscribe button. And I'd love it if you'd leave me a rating and review. I've got some amazing guests lined up for you in the coming weeks. And leaders. It's that time to get out there and lead your life on purpose.