Community Possibilities
Community Possibilities
Building Bridges Between Research and Community Voices with Dr. Dawn X. Henderson
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Dr. Dawn X. Henderson makes research accessible for marginalized communities. From her beginnings as a middle school science teacher, to founding We Claim Research, Dawn's journey is filled with inspiring stories and groundbreaking work. Dawn’s commitment to amplifying the voices of racially and ethnically marginalized groups offers a fresh perspective on fostering environments where all narratives are valued.
We share our identities as community psychologists, spotlighting system change and community engagement. Join us as Dawn shares her innovative approach to research collaboration, emphasizing community initiation and leadership. Dawn describes her work with Black mothers who, during the height of COVID-19, reshaped research protocols and presenting their findings at a major conference. Dawn emphasizes humility, openness, and a healing-centered lens. We invite you to embrace the wisdom of communities and the healing potential of curiosity in creating spaces where everyone thrives.
Guest Bio
Dr. Dawn X. Henderson is a Community Psychologist, founder of WeClaim Research (weclaimresearch.com; https://weclaimresearch.com/), and the Director of Participatory Research, Power Building at Village of Wisdom, a nonprofit in Durham, NC. She models making “science and research” accessible to those who have been the most underrepresented and marginalized. As a research scientist, she has used an interdisciplinary lens to position the narratives of racially and ethnically marginalized communities and young people at the center of how science and research happen. Her research has focused on identifying the ecological systems and structures that support and promote positive development for young people and adults. She is the recipient of the American Evaluation Association Graduate Education Diversity Internship, Faculty Select with the Expanding the Bench Initiative sponsored by the Annie E. Casey Foundation, the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation’s Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Fellowship, Division 27, Society for Community Research and Action Leadership Development Fellowship, Division 27’s 2023 Distinguished Contribution to Practice in Community Psychology Award, and 2023 Research-to-Policy Collaboration Scholar Award, Research-to-Policy Collaborative with Pennsylvania State University. As a Community Cultivator and Space Creator, she envisions creating more dream cultivators so that Black and Brown people, their children, and communities thrive.
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Hi everybody, welcome back to Community Possibilities. Today, dr Dawn X Henderson joins me. Dawn, like me, is a community psychologist and we have a quick sidebar on how do you answer that question at the cocktail party. What the heck is a community psychologist anyway?
Speaker 2Dawn is the founder of we Claim Research and the director of participatory research and power building at the Village of Wisdom, a non-profit in Durham, north Carolina. She models making science and research accessible to those who've been the most underrepresented and marginalized. As a research scientist, she uses an interdisciplinary lens to position the narratives of racially and ethnically marginalized communities and young people at the center of how science and research happen. Her research is focused on identifying the ecological systems and structures that support and promote positive development for young people and adults. Dawn is the recipient of many awards, including APA Division 27, otherwise known as the Society for Community Research and Actions Distinguished Contribution to Practice in Community Psychology Award in 2023. As a community cultivator and space creator, dawn envisions creating more dream cultivators so that Black and Brown people, their children and communities thrive. Dawn and I had a great conversation. Can't wait to hear what you think about it. Hi everybody, today we have on the show Dr Dawn Henderson. Hey, dr Henderson, how are you?
Speaker 3I am well, I'm super, super excited to, like you know, engage in this conversation right and be here with you.
Speaker 2So well, I am. So thank you. I'm so glad that you are here. I'm so glad that folks in our mutual orbit put us together. I feel like we've already known each other for a million years, even though we have never met in person. And you guys can't see Dawn, because I have yet to put the podcast on YouTube.
Speaker 2I don't know if I'll ever do that, yeah, but she has the most fun black I think they're black and white polka dotted glasses. That just gave me a grin that I really needed and made me realize I need a little more fun in my life, which led us down to talk about funk music and Earth, wind, fire and how we need to add joy in our life. So anyway, all that to say hi, dawn, how are you hey?
Speaker 3I actually intentionally put these glasses on for this podcast, and also these are my computer glasses. So you know I am someone who needs progressive lens and I refuse to buy those because, I don't know, I feel kind of off. So these are actually my glasses that I use when I'm on the computer. It helps me kind of just see better, and so I was like, oh, I'm so excited when someone invites me to like a Zoom interview.
Speaker 2Well, we'll have to have that conversation later, because I definitely have computer glasses and I don't use them and yeah, yeah, and I'm of a certain age Dawn so these are definitely progress. Yes me too. But nobody came here to talk to hear about that. But so let's jump into our conversation today. I always like to start with tell us who you are and how you came to be.
Speaker 3Don't read us your resume, just kind of tell us who you are? Geez, you know. So I am Dawn X Henderson. I really want to say how I came into this work and more recently, you know, I've been thinking about like this story. So I really I do. I want to. I want to start off with my first career after I finished.
Speaker 3My undergrad degree was a science teacher, middle school science teacher, and I remember really working to try to figure out how to make science exciting and fun. I was in a school that had, like about 98% of you know student population, free and reduced lunch, and there was this really special, beautiful Black young man named Wilson who, to be quite honest with you, all the teachers used to go. You know he was tough, he was tough, was tough. He had been in, you know, foster care settings and you know, being diagnosed with, you know, adhd, had a, you know behavioral, emotional health issues or whatever. You know he was that student, right, I don't want to really go too much into that story. So I gave these students a task where they had to research biomes and the idea was that they were research biomes, you know, and be able to do a presentation. So you know, told the students, you know, be creative in your presentation or whatever what you want to do. So, day of presentation, you know, I get in front of the class. I'm like, hey, hey, you all, we're getting ready. And Wilson's in the back, like you know, he was constantly, you know, telling jokes and all those kinds of things to class. I'll be honest with you. He's raising his hand. Like you know, ms Henderson, choose me. I wasn't a doctor. Then, you know, choose me. And I was like in my head I was like, oh, I don't want to. I already know what this is going to be. You know he's going to make jokes. I'm going to probably get upset, he's going to be disrespectful, all those things. So I took a deep breath. I said, okay, come on.
Speaker 3So Wilson gathers his papers. It's a pile of notebook papers that you could tell that he wrote some things on, he did some drawings on. And I want to put the context here because I want to say you know, students have brochures. Somebody had a PowerPoint presentation. He had none of those things.
Speaker 3So he gets in front of the class and he starts talking about it was a tundra and he starts sharing facts. You know, he's pulling up, like you know, rumpled, crumpled pieces of notebook paper. He's showing these pictures and I'm going to be honest with you, I'm sitting in the back and I feel my emotions starting to boil up and I start crying. I cry because I actually did not believe that he did the assignment right, like he did the research. And I was crying also because he had done research and he had translated that research in a way that was accessible to him.
Speaker 3It may not have been what the other students did, but it was so powerful, right, been what the other students did, but it was so powerful, right. And so that resonates with me. Resonated with me not just thinking about that, but thinking about how did I work to create the conditions for Wilson, in that moment, to feel enough power, or feel empowered enough to say Enough power of feeling empowered enough to say I'm presenting my research, ms Henderson, at the time, and to translate. And so for me, that is a moment that sits in my heart, sits in my soul.
Speaker 3As a community psychologist, you know, I like to say how am I making research and science accessible to communities and how do I make that in a way where they feel like Wilson? You know, I'm taking, I'm empowered, I'm taking over this and I'm translating it in a way that makes sense to me and how do we ensure that people kind of bear witness to that and the power of bearing witness to that right, the power of that as an individual to be able to witness folks who may have been told or who may have believed at one point that this is not something that they could do? And so when I think about that, as a community psychologist, I think that's what I really love doing, particularly working with youth and their communities, and I really believe that's what I've been called to do, you know. So this is how Dawn came to be. I have so many, you know I could tell you about my family history, but that is one of the stories that I continue to go back to.
Speaker 2Yeah, and I can feel that emotion still. You carry that with you still.
Speaker 3Yes yes, yes so so powerful, so powerful and, of course, again seeing this kind of. You know he was 13 years old. This young person just be excited about it. So I was like if I can relive those moments over and over again.
Speaker 2yeah, I don't know if you can relate to this Dawn, but, um, and a lot of folks uh, who know me this, but a lot of people don't know that I started out as a clinician, I wanted to be a clinical psychologist and I started working in treatment centers. So I have, like similar stories of kids that just you know, just impacted me that I still carry with me.
Speaker 2And I often wonder do you ever wonder what happened to him? Because I wonder like what happened to, because I wonder like what happened to those kids and he was a. He was a black young man, so the possibilities yes, yeah, today.
Speaker 3It's so funny because I told myself I, I've been, you know, I've been on facebook, um, I try to find him. I didn't remember his last name, um, and so you know I looked in alumni groups and he has. He is somebody that's kind of right there, I'd say, in the back of my memory, and I'm always wondering, and I think every time he comes across my mind, I always just say, like a meditation and prayer, right, like, let him have, you know, let him have overcome the social barriers that he was, he was experiencing. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2Yes. Yes. I do, yeah, I do. I wish I didn't, but yes, I do.
Speaker 3Yes, yes, yes, so that you know.
Speaker 2So you described you're a community psychologist, I'm a community psychologist and I would love to know, at the dinner party or wherever you are at, when people say, well, what do you do? And you say, well, I'm a community psychologist, I bet that you get as many blank stares as I do, like what, what's that? Blank stares as I do. Like what, what's that? Or you get oh you see families, right, or you?
Speaker 2oh, you're a therapist like, yeah, I don't do that anymore, so I would love to know what is your cocktail dinner party? Answer to what's a community psychologist asking for a friend?
Speaker 3asking for a friend because you are so right and then when I tell people, they're like, oh, that's like social work, and I'm like, no, um, so I will say where I landed. And where I landed is is really saying that what I care about are, or is, the wellness and the well-being of young people in the neighborhoods and schools that they are a part of. And because when I say care, I'm really working right to improve the way these settings, the way their families and the way schools are able to thrive and build positive relationships with not only themselves but with young people, so that young people can thrive right.
Speaker 3And so when young people thrive, their communities thrive, and so that lands a little bit better than the other one, because I've tried to use like oh, so we look at systems and someone says, oh, this is like social work or sociology, and I'm like no, not the same.
Speaker 2Yeah, you know, and I try to talk about systems change in a very accessible way. Right, people don't get that either. I mean, it takes a lot of examples and we could ask ourselves why yeah, I'm asking myself. Why don't we get that? Well, because we probably want to blame, you know, the individual for all of their problems, but that would be my guess.
Speaker 2But yeah, I say something like um I, I probably start out with what they're familiar with. Well, you know how a clinical psychologist might see children and families. Well, I work with communities and community-based organizations to help them figure out what is it that they want to change in their communities and how are we going to do that and how are we going to know that we're really lifting up our community members? I say some version of that thing. Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 3That's good. That's good. I think you're right, though, you know, I think it's also just again. You know popular culture, right, and we as community psychology, you know we're not in popular culture because it's not exciting. You know, I think when you think about shows, Frasier and all these things, it's easy to put someone on a. You know, I think you think about shows, frazier and all these things, it's easy to put someone on a on a. You know, on a chair right, and have someone on the other side of the chair and and kind of that. The visual of that, right, the visual of that is very easy. I think too many people have that. You don't have that kind of iconic representation whenever you even say psychologist. So it's like, okay, how do I take that same visual and tell them that we're about systems and neighborhoods and communities?
Speaker 2yeah, yeah, exactly think. Think about community groups and a round table. It's a round table, it's not a couch.
Speaker 3That's good, that's a good visual. So you also play in, I think, another space that I play in, which is evaluation. Is that right? Again, I think, as community psychologists, it's about the aha moments that happens when you are supporting organizations with evaluation for them, the learning. You know that happens, and then you know the other part is not just the learning, but you know whether it's a small impact or big impact, and I like to say, actually a small impact is always a big impact when they're really able to see wow, you know what I mean, this is how we're changing. You know the folks that we care about in our work. That always sits like again, it sits on my soul, right.
Speaker 3And so, yeah, you know I've been doing that actually while still pursuing my PhD, you know we had to take program evaluation as part of our degree requirement, and so I remember actually taking a class and the professor was talking about evaluation. I said, well, can we actually do this? I was like this sounds really exciting. Can we actually do a project where we're going out and finding people to do? He was like, oh, he scratched his head. He's like, yeah, that's a great idea.
Speaker 3I was like what, don't talk about it and so he shifted the class, which I loved you know his adaptability and kind of, you know, challenged us to find a project. You know what I mean. That kind of spoke to a lot of the theory that he was speaking to and so that was one of my first big projects was worked with the North Carolina Department of Public Instruction where we were evaluating like governance structures and charter schools and really really was excited again being invited talking to schools, talking to young people, talking to parents and talking to teachers and I was like man, I love this work right when you kind of create those conversations and I think even for the Department of Public Instruction at the time, you know no one's really examining that. So, yeah, it was useful, you know on both sides myself and also you know the organization and some of the schools that we were interviewing.
Speaker 2Yeah. So I wonder if that was kind of like a turning point or a light bulb moment for you, or like the doors part and the pathways, like oh, I see what I was supposed to do with my life.
Speaker 3That's great. It's kind of going back to the story and this is the thing. I believe that one of the things that I find meaning in, you know, as an individual in this world is less about me and the way that the presence of myself and my knowledge or my skills or whatever, is really supporting people. You know what I mean. Even in my position now, you know it's called Director of Participatory Research and Power Building. I'm like that is something that means so much to me to build power, to ignite personal power in individuals and organizations where actually they don't, you know, need to depend on me. It's like they realize that they have this within themselves or they realize, with these small changes, that they can do these things on their own, and to just see that, you know again, to bear witness to that, and I think it kind of reminds me of like purpose, right, as sometimes we're just conduits in this world, mediums, as we say. You know where folks are working, where the Spirit is working through us in order to reach, you know, the people.
Speaker 2Yeah, amen, sister. So what is that? So what does your work look like? You made this like you definitely had series of aha moments, not just that one, but you know whether it be Wilson or that experience that's kind of led you to your work. What does your work look like? Talk to us about you. Know some, maybe some concrete examples, because I think people still, you know they have a hard time wrapping their head around what you and I kind of do in communities and I know you feel very strongly about community-based participatory research and I have that in air quotes folks, because I don't do research anymore.
Speaker 2Although I have those three letters behind my name too. I don't really do research, and I know you feel really strongly about that, so I don't know which one of those I get. I just gave you a big mouthful to tackle.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 2Go where you want to go.
Empowering Communities Through Research Collaboration
Speaker 3Yeah. So I think where I want to go is really lifting up what has been probably another significant transformative experience in my life and that is in my role. So, again, as I said, I currently serve as director of participatory research and power building at a nonprofit in Durham, North Carolina, called Village of Wisdom. The organization's ability to do community-based participatory research, working across not just the organization but with partner organizations to increase their own knowledge around CBPR and really driving a vision right for CBPR, particularly in the organization. And I will say that it came at a time where I had I think it was about two months before the executive director said would you be interested in applying? I had done a presentation called reimagining research and I was presenting it at Duke University with some folks from their medical school and one of the things that I said was reimagining research from doing CBPR to doing community-driven research. And so when I came into the organization I said, yeah, you know, this is a nomenclature issue, you guys are not doing CBPR, You're doing community-driven research. And he was like yeah, we are.
Speaker 3And why do I say community-driven? Because I think that to me it's really basic that it begins with the community. It's really basic that it begins with the community. The community asks the questions, the community says we care about this issue and we're going to engage in quote unquote the necessary steps and processes to not just answer the question but to create a solution right for our community. And um, it is driven by them, it's driven by those who are not in higher education, not in the ivory tower, whatever um, and they're driving. You know everything, every single phase of of the, of the process.
Speaker 3And so when I came to the organization, that was that was my task create vision, think about a strategic plan for what community-driven research is supposed to look like. And so it wasn't just me creating that vision and that plan, but I like to say I had to live the experience. So I came in immediately and I was working with a group of five black moms and they were co-leading a community assessment during the height of COVID to try to understand the implications of remote learning on Black students, on parents and teachers, who were predominantly serving Black students. And we called that the dreams assessment, right? So instead of like a needs assessment, we called it a dreams assessment.
Speaker 3Oh I love that yeah yeah, how's that it's amazing.
Speaker 3Because it's strength-based Exactly, that's true. It's amazing because it's strength-based, exactly, exactly, exactly strength-based. So already I was like this is the work you know I want to be doing and working with these five black moms and during so that was what 2020, going into 2021, during, during that process, man, it was like bi-directional reciprocal learning, right, I was learning so much. You know, I was working with another researcher by the name of Dr Robbiato Barry, who's at the University of Maryland, university of Maryland. We were working together to think about their training, right? So you know ethics and research, all this good stuff. You know how we were going to prepare them to conduct these focus groups analysis, but it was during this process and working with them that they were interrogating some of those processes. Well, why do we have to do it this way? Uh, we want to change the protocol, these things. And again, being receptive to that, right, and so to me, my own receptivity allowed me to learn about research in a different way. You know what I mean, and I felt that I was learning about the needed healing, was learning about the needed healing that I needed, right, in order to change my relationship to research and my relationship to community, my relationship to these Black mothers, who again were not you know, they didn't have 50 million degrees or whatever you know behind their names.
Speaker 3And so, walking that path, we produced the dreams. It was called the dreams assessment. So we were produced the report and then it was like the moms were like, oh, this is great, you know we, we, we like that. But what is next? You know, they didn't want to just produce a report. So the organization like, convene education leaders and teachers and community folks and these parents were presenting to these individuals on, you know, their findings. And then the parents kept saying, okay, yeah, what's next? You know? So then we were like, oh, yeah, okay, what are you gonna do next? So I remember working with, uh, tom Wolfe, dr Tom Wolfe, and I was telling him about this challenge and he was like, well, maybe you should do, maybe think about some policy statements or whatever. So went back to the parents and we came up with this term called dream mammoths, like the 10 commandments, right, or the black 10 point plans. So in these dream mammoths they took the findings from the DREAMS assessment and kind of came up with these 10 points on what are the conditions that will allow young people and their families to thrive in the education system, right? So again we presented these dream mammoths. It was so powerful, like the people you know, this is still height of COVID. Right, we're still doing Zoom. We did some Zoom presentations and I will say another a powerful moment in there Ann was, I was in, we did like what we call speed dating, so we had the five black moms kind of like hop around from one breakout room to the next to kind of, you know, tell about their experience and share the findings.
Speaker 3And one of the mothers was in there and someone was just asking her well, can you tell me, why did you like the process? And she said, she said, had I known research could be like this, I would have done research a long time ago. And this is a mom who you know maybe started college first semester, didn't finish right, and she was like I would have done it, and that saddled me again. Another moment that saddled me and I was like see how we can change people's relationship to research. And then she took on this identity, this research identity, right, and believe that she was a researcher. So that was powerful. So we co-presented with these parents at Division 45, you know, with the American Psychological Association. And then I continued to work with these parents and another group of parents and we created what we call a Keep Dreaming Toolkit. So this was like taking the findings in taking some of the dream amendments and saying how can we make tools like strategies right, instructional strategies or strategies that parents can use at home, that teachers can use in a classroom? So then we created a Keep Dreaming Toolkit and I like to say that it didn't end there, like to say that it didn't end there.
Speaker 3I talked to the parents and I said hey, you all, there's this opportunity for us to publish in a peer-reviewed journal and many of them hadn't had that experience. We had to have conversations on getting through what I call writing traumas, particularly as Black women, and the process. Again they forced me. I had an outline, I had been doing published stuff, so I had an outline and they started interrogating the outline why are we doing it this way? Why can't we have what about this? I don't agree with that and again, I was receptive to it and I will tell you I was nervous about it. Right, because the publication is called Black Genius Flexing. It was in the Journal of Participatory Research Methods and you know, I was nervous about submitting it.
Speaker 3And then, once I submitted, actually some of the reviews were not necessarily favorable and actually one of them you could tell that there was some racial bias in their review because the moms wanted, like some of the I would call like slaying me, slaying some of the language that they use right in their community, and you could tell that the reviewer was biased, you know. So I contacted the guest editor and I was like no, you know, we're going to hold on to this language, and the guest editor supported us, and so the publication has these parents' art. They wanted to do poetry. One of the parents is dyslexic and she said well, I want to paint my feelings right, and so it has her paintings in there and it was so beautiful.
Speaker 3And again it reminded me of my own healing journey around how I needed to continue to push and wield change right Instead of me, kind of right instead of me, kind of trying to um what I would say compromise, you know myself, in order to fit right into the system. It's the other way around. How do I get and wield the power to get the system to change, you know? And so it was like my own healing of my own agency, um, but also in that it reminded me of the power of love. You know what I mean like loving on oneself, um, you know they talked about spaciousness. They talked about being in situations where they had to. You know they did focus groups and interviews with some of the teachers and some of the teachers again were not were white teachers and they had expressed like some negative concepts around some of the parents and not, and they talked about like having to hold that space as a black parent and to be open and to lean into, continue to push, you know, this teacher to go in the direction they talked about afterwards, how they all needed to like huddle up together in the way that they decided to dance right as a way to kind of get through some of the inner turmoil around what they heard from that teacher and their sort of negative disposition, you know, towards black parents.
Speaker 3And so to me, when I say what I do, you know it is again building powers. It's like sitting and watching the life cycle of research go from not just the research but going into practice, right, and then leading to like systems change. So, for example, you know the toolkit had been downloaded by more than 12,000 folks know the toolkit had been downloaded by more than 12,000 folks and people were saying I'm using it. You know, I'm using it in my classroom, I'm using it in my home. Somebody talked about how they were over diversity, equity and inclusion, was putting it in the university. You know, using it in the, using some of the strategies in the in the university. I mean some of the what I you know, because we had a survey.
Speaker 3Some of the testimonies were really powerful, these collective women, these five mothers, being a position where they were perceived as experts. When they um, they allowed, they allowed, they informed research in a different way. They forced me to not force I don't want to say force they held me. They held me in a way where I saw how we could write differently, right, and the power of that writing differently, feel. Well, yes, they did, you know. Did they feel loved, affirmed, valued? Yes, they did. You know what I mean, and so that to me, is kind of this eminent piece around. Are we really promoting, you know, wellness and wellbeing? And I say yes, you know. Yes, yes, we are.
Speaker 2Dawn, before I forget, I just want to ask you would you mind sending me links to all of that, because I would love to put you know the toolkit and the article. I don't imagine that. Maybe I'm wrong. Is the article accessible, or is that something?
Speaker 3you have to.
Speaker 2Oh wow, that's a nice you know that doesn't happen in our world very often.
Speaker 3It does. I'm so thankful it's the journal participatory research methods, and so they do use open access and so, yeah, I'm going to send all of that to you.
Embracing Community Wisdom and Healing
Speaker 2That would be awesome, so you can share that with your listeners. Yeah, because if you were talking about like that, what did you call the manments? What were they? Dream manments, dream manments, right, that can only come from a community. Right, that can only come from a church mother sitting in the room. That's not going to come from somebody you know who's been like, socialized a certain way. In terms of research and how and how our research methodology should be designed, how an article should be written.
Speaker 2Oh my gosh, dream amendments. I love that. So what you've described is that not community-based, participatory?
Speaker 3research. How's that different? Well, this is the thing we actually did a presentation for Division 27. And I tell people, the way that we think about CBPR is that the community base is the language right and so community base, if you think about it, it's really denoting that someone is not immersed in that community right. Immersed in that community right, someone is coming within that community and basing their research within there right and then, of course, you know, depending on the continuum that they subscribe to, then there may be like different phases in that research process. That community, uh, members are a part of right gotcha um.
Speaker 2So it's like an outsider, like you know, coming in. Yes, yes, yes, yeah to me.
Speaker 3I say community driven is the opposite. Right, it's actually someone, within someone, deeply immersed um, folks that have more rootedness in the neighborhoods that exist, um, and so they are the ones saying this matters to our, to our, to our folks.
Speaker 3You know this matters to our community and what is that question that we begin to generate so that we can again not just answer for the sake of answering, you know, because that's kind of the research thing you know you produce for generalizability. But we're talking about answering this because we want to develop the solutions our community needs to make change here.
Speaker 2Yeah, absolutely yeah, and that's why I love evaluation so much, right? We we're not, you know. Am I published? Yes, do I occasionally write an article? Yes, it does not drive my life, right, it's all about. You know, to me I've really gotten away from the words program evaluation because that doesn't speak to me as a community psychologist, right?
Speaker 2So yeah, but it's all about that community level change. Whatever you know, they define it as, yeah, right, that's why I always describe it as the round table, like I have expertise, but you have expertise in your community. You know your community, I do not know your community right I'm, I'm going to be a stranger in a lot of the communities that I work in and I have to, like you know, just recognize that and understand that and come in with that level of awareness.
Speaker 2Yeah, that awareness, that humility, that willingness to be open, to be challenged, which is hard sometimes, right?
Speaker 3yeah, don't shake your head Because I'm like again. You know I talk about like a healing-centered lens right.
Speaker 2Oh, I'm so glad you brought that up. That's exactly where I wanted to go. What is that all about? What does that mean? A?
Speaker 3great segue. You are a great segue into that right and I spoke to like my own healing right. So when I say you know a healing-centered lens, I'm talking about how we're kind of disrupting and breaking down these hierarchies of human value. That's it right, because when we begin to disrupt and break down this hierarchy of human value, then we're doing the opposite. We're repairing or restoring, we're healing in a way where I see you, I see you on the other side of the table and I believe that you are again. We're equally yoked right again. We're equally yoked right.
Speaker 3Even me, like being a PhD person and knowing, you know, I got this X years of training that I had to heal from right, believing in somehow, because I have that knowledge, that somehow that knowledge is a little bit better than you know, this Black parent who was sitting on the other side of the table and I you know you talked about humility I had to quiet the voice and listen and learn, you know, from their expertise, from their lived experience, from their courageousness, I would say, around saying we're going to use our language and we're okay with that.
Speaker 3You can call it whatever you want broken English, ebonics, whatever but we're going to use it right and pushing me to also be comfortable with that as a Black woman. You know what I mean as a Black woman and that's what I really see. You know what I mean. I believe that it's the hierarchies of human value that has disrupted so many levels of our existence. You know the moment we believe that one person or one entity or one identity is more valuable than another, and then what we do with that? Because, again, we are all powerful beings, right? It's the moment that we exercise power around that belief and when we're doing that, we're disempowering someone else.
Speaker 2Yeah, one of the things I wanna share with you is and I don't know if I mentioned this when we first met Well, I remember being in graduate school and waiting for somebody to tap me on the shoulder and say excuse me, we've made a mistake. You're not smart enough to be here, because I saw some folks that came in with me that did not finish with me, and they were a lot smarter than I was right, but I was all about biting the bone and not letting anybody taken away from me.
Speaker 2But I also have always understood that there are a lot of people out there and many people out there in communities who do not have letters in back of their name who are amazing and brilliant and valuable. My mom did not go to college until she was 62. I have eight brothers and sisters Count them right. And then she met college algebra and she quit, which was really sad, but she loved to sit down with us kids and get out like boggle or scrabble because she did crossword puzzles every day, she had a vocabulary that would not quit Right and she loved to beat the stinking pants off. You know some of her college educated. You know kids and laugh about it and put us in her place. But that just goes to show right that there's always a level of humbleness and humility and you know, just accepting people as they are. The person checking me out at the grocery store or picking up my trash is just. You know they're not as valuable. They are valuable. They are a person of worth.
Speaker 3Yes, yes, yeah, thank you. I want to say thank you, ann, for sharing this story about your mom, because that was my mom. My mom did not finish college and the circumstances that she had. She loved crossword puzzles too, puzzles too. She would teach us about science and mathematics and was adamant about us writing and reading and going to the library and everything.
Speaker 3And I say that it is my mom who kind of sowed the seed, the foundation, for lifelong learning. And, same thing, like she was brilliant. You know, she was the mom who would go up to to teachers or whoever could talk about history. And then don't, don't get her started, because then, you know, we were also homeschooled a couple of times, because she was like, no, you're miseducating my child and taking my children out. So, and we were homeschooling, I tell people like every time we went back, you know, and they would say, oh, these children are homeschooled, they would want to give us tests.
Speaker 3It was three of us. We will always do well. We will always do well on these tests that they supposedly gave us, because they didn't think that, you know, my mom could do a good job. Yeah, and so, yeah, you're right, you know, and I think again, just sometimes we move further away from that because you know again, we're in these systems sometimes and they say, oh well, you know you've got to be somewhat. You know, you know more. Right, you know more. You went to our institutions, we gave you this PhD or you earned it.
Speaker 2Well, I think we earned it, but there's a lot, but there are a lot. There's a lot more. There's additional knowledge and wisdom and that humility that the community has taught me. Hey, I want to ask you about your touchstone approach. What is that all about?
Transforming Relationships Through Community Empowerment
Speaker 3Yes, um. So touchstones, uh, is about a series about 14 and I can send them. I'm going to send a couple of things back to you so you can share with your community. So Touchstones comes out of Dr Gal Christopher. She is the author and probably the primary curator, creator of what she calls our ex RX racial healing circles, um, or approach, um, and I was trained in this kind of methodology because of my interest around, you know, racial healing Right, and it was my introduction to that, to that training, where I was introduced to these touchstones and I just started bringing these touchstones and then so again, this is like 2019 I just started bringing these touchstones into different rounds of my life, into research. You know, I introduced the parents to the touchstones and they wanted to introduce some of the touchstones before they did any of their focus groups. You know they were like we're gonna have have the young people, have the teachers and the parents.
Speaker 3You know, read these touchstones and I like to say like, like, like the term. They ground you. They're kind of. You know, people may call them group agreements or whatever, but to me they're very powerful and one of the most powerful ones in that and this is the one.
Speaker 3Every time we have people read it, we'll ask is there one that resonates with you? And it's called Turn to Wonder, and in the Turn to Wonder it says I wonder why I feel this way, I wonder what brings me here, I wonder why they feel this way. I wonder what brings me here, I wonder what, why they feel this way, I wonder what brings them here. And, um, you know, going back to like healing, right, when we react, um, and when we oftentimes react off a judgment, um, I think sometimes we're limiting ourselves, right, we limit ourselves, our own ability to be open and to be more understanding. And then, of course, when we engage in the reaction, oftentimes we're probably harming, you know, someone else being in being around, uh, other graduate students who, who you thought were smirking, you know so.
Speaker 3So for me, sometimes it's like dealing with what is the root of my own insecurities, and so when there is a moment where I'm like, in truth, it makes me feel insecure, right, but, but again, I'm not going deeper.
Speaker 3Sometimes I'm going going to the defense, right, the defense mode, and like, well, I'm this and I'm that, right. And so I've been practicing that turn to wonder as a parent, you know, as a researcher, as a professional, because it allows me to kind of go deep into myself, right, and to name what is really happening for me, so that I'm not on this, I'm not coming from a place of defense, you know and sometimes same thing if I'm turning to wonder and asking what could have brought them to this, what they're spewing, or them engaging in what I would consider to be a subtle jab, you know what I mean. So, again, it's allowing you to open yourself differently to relationships, to relationship to yourself and the relationship to others, and so I always think that that's really powerful. Right Again, going back to the way that we are transforming, you know ourselves, the way that we are promoting wellness, you know, not only for ourselves but the people you know that we're in contact with.
Speaker 2Yeah, I think that just that one touchstone that you shared can be so powerful for just neighbors and neighborliness and how communities and folks who live in communities get along, or who they speak to and who they don't speak to. Just think about the family, your significant other or your kids or whatever. If we would just pause and be curious and not be reactionary, which? Is hard, that takes a level of discipline right to really start putting that into practice.
Speaker 3Yeah, yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2That's why I say it's the hardest one so I guess that's probably one of the strategies that you use to help community organizations be effective. Are there other things that you like kind of your go-to, Because a lot of our listeners are nonprofit leaders, community coalition leaders, those kinds of folks who are in community and, you know, sometimes it's not fun to be, in community these days we kind of don't want to be yeah, yeah, yeah, so I use, I use that approach.
Speaker 3That really did come out of my research and and uh excuse the acronym for people who may have very sensitive ears and it's called and this is, that's my little joke in our way, so in our way, basically means name reframe that differently, right, like name, name the harm, right.
Speaker 3So again, we're talking about like research, to openly just begin to engage in a discourse around how it has been harmful, right, how it has harmed you. You know, that was actually one of the things, um, the the staff at uh val in 2020. Her name was taylor mary and she was working through like that first what what she called the orientation, right, with the parents to just kind of tell them about the work, and there was a facilitated conversation. How has research harmed you? You know what I mean For them to name? Have you been in focus groups or part of research studies and how has it harmed you? What did you see? You know what happened in that community or whatever.
Speaker 3And so what I've found is that when we can kind of engage in like the discourse, the dialogue around naming the thing, naming the harm right, talking about that, then we kind of move into this place called reframe. So let's reframe it. How can it be affirming right, how can it be about not just sitting in a journal article and really moving into the hands of the people or whatever. And so, as you reframe it, then the way we approach data analysis. We didn't use that term. We talked about meaning making. There are several authors who talk about how do you look at data whether it's numbers, text or whatever and you add meaning to that and acknowledging that, as a human being, you're going to interpret that. You're going to interpret what it means to you, what it means to your community, and what we found was that that was just while it may be, you know, a multi-syllabic term meaning making versus data analysis. We found that, again, that reframed their relationship analysis. We found that again, that reframed their relationship right. So again, when they can reframe their relationship to something called data analysis, then they act differently and so the parents themselves begin to use meaning making.
Speaker 3You know we're engaging in meaning making. We're going to, we're going to do this, I want to do this project and I want to be able to, you know, facilitate meaning making, you know, with my community, and so I think that's one of the ways that we do it. You know what I mean. Again, you know people who do therapy talk about I think it's called like, dialectic behavioral therapy. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3It's like you kind of go back and have this conversation and you're reframing it. You're reframing it. You're reframing it so that you change your relationship. You know your relationship with it and so you know again. My work is I want to change community members, particularly for us you know Black families relationship to research. Because I want them to do research, I want them to conduct the research and I want them to again believe that research is not just about producing some whole you know report. Right, that research is about translation. It's about moving it into practice. It's about taking that practice and continuing to advocate for like system change and finding different ways in which they're able to do that.
Speaker 2And research is not done by people that look a certain way. They actually have power. But I can imagine having that initial conversation about how research has harmed you. Man, you're never going to get anywhere if you don't start there.
Speaker 3Yes.
Speaker 3So I'm going to give you another example.
Speaker 3So I was telling you about us writing the paper, so I'm going to send you this paper and I told you, like the first session, you know, once I gathered the moms together and we talked about, hey, we're going to organize, we had to hold space for their trauma around writing Right, and they talked about being in school and someone telling them they couldn't write right.
Speaker 3And then one parent is dyslexic and was saying how her relationship with the written language has always been challenging. And it was through there where I was like, ooh, we have to also name this in the article. So we have, at the beginning of the article where we talk about how we're acknowledging the trauma of research, like we can't get to talking about participatory research if we don't acknowledge, like this history right. And it took us time for the parents to acknowledge their own traumatic experiences around writing and K-12 experiences, to even jump past the hurdle right and to say, okay, now I'm ready, right now I'm ready to contribute to this article and to bring my perspective into this article. And that was, you know, I think, again holding space for folks to be able to do that, and not just holding space, but giving people you know the different ways in which they believe that they can work through that. You know work through that for themselves.
Speaker 2Well, dawn, I really appreciate you being with me. I should say, dr Henderson, I so appreciate your time. I got to ask you the question. The question gotta ask it because I'm really curious what you're gonna say. When you look to the future, what community possibilities do you see?
Speaker 3oh, that is such a beautiful question. Um, I do believe that we will see schools without walls.
Speaker 3We will see more borders torn down. And borders are not just geographic borders, there are internal ones, you know, those borders that prevent us from being engaged and being in relationship to each other. Um, and changing that relationship in terms of, again, how do I see you, as you know, the same as I, right. How do I see you as you know, the same as I, right. How do I see you in the same way, in the same capacity. And so I will say that my dream is children running, running and learning in their communities. And they're not behind walls, sitting in in desks in communities, learning from children. They're sitting down on the grass, they're talking about things that matter. They're working to, you know, improve their relationship to the planet. People are just talking differently to each other. People are talking differently to their children and children are talking differently to the adults and really just continuing to work in the places that they are to reconnect us back to our humanity, to love you know what I mean For each other. I would love to see that world.
Speaker 2You know? Yeah, I would too. Dr Henderson, how can people get in touch with you?
Speaker 3Well, I will say that in so many ways I unfortunately have disconnected from Twitter or now X and Facebook Me, but I am, but I am on linkedin. I am on linkedin and really using that as a great professional um network, um, so you know, I would say, you know, I'll send you that link. Uh, folks can also. I do have my own, you know, consulting business called we Claim Research and so folks can connect with me here and that's D-A-W-N-X-H-E-N at we Claim, w-e-c-l-a-i-m researchcom. You know, I would say look for me at any conference maybe some AEA down there, american Valuation, some other things I will hopefully be heading and continuing to try to spread the word. Spread the word and spread the value of the beauty that happens when we walk alongside community members and the transformation that happens within ourselves in broader systems when we do that.
Speaker 2Well, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you.
Speaker 3And it has been a pleasure and I love how we kind of connected on mama's stories as well. So you have a good afternoon.
Speaker 2All right. Hi everybody. Thank you so much for joining me on today's episode of Community Possibilities. Please like and share the episode. Share it with a community leader you know and love, or just someone who needs a little boost today. If you could take an extra minute or two and leave a review, that would be so helpful. Now I just want to remind you that my course, powerful Evidence Evaluation for Non-Evaluators, is live. We are offering a 50% discount as a pilot. Thank you to the first 10 folks who register for the course.
Enhancing Evaluation
Speaker 2It is designed for non-profit and community leaders who really want to build the evaluation capacity of their organization and maybe it's just not in the budget to hire an evaluator or a consultant. No worries, this is going to get you started. Your organization is going to learn practical insights and strategies to collect, analyze and interpret and share evidence in ways that's really going to demonstrate the outcomes of your organization. And, of course, we wanted to inform your strategic decision making. Evaluation at its best is all about making the world a better place. It includes seven modules, including one bonus module where I really give you some tips and tricks on how to share data in a compelling way. It includes five plus hours of guided video content and a beautiful 80-page workbook that walks you through, step-by-step, the evaluation process. Please reach out to me if you have any questions, and thank you so much for enrolling in Powerful Evidence. It is meant just for you, my friend. See you next time. Thank you.