Guru — Disciple | Thus Spake Babaji, online Q&A #81

Babaji answers questions on the beautiful concept of Guru and Disciple.

Thus Spake Babaji, online Q&A #81 recorded on 12 February 2022 with worldwide participants.

0:20 Is it only the ego that needs renouncing?
3:01 What is real renunciation?
4:27 What is Guru's Grace?
8:24 What are the qualities of a true Guru?
10:24 How can a Yogi or Guru teach in silence?
14:43 Having total faith in the Guru
16:48 Babaji's training under Swamiji, working without mental chatter
19:22 The Guru may appear inert but is compassionate
23:06 What can a devotee give to a Guru?
24:00 The toughness of a Guru's training
27:05 Authorising a Guru to test you
28:59 A sincere seeker should be tired of this world
32:07 Having the right intention to go to an Ashram

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Transcript

Guru — Disciple Thus Spake Babaji, online Q&A #81

12 February 2022, Worldwide Participants, 36:27

Questioner:

Today's topic is looking at the Guru and disciple, and the questions are based again on what You've written in the commentary on the Viveka Choodamani. 

So in one of the places You say, 'When there's a real renunciation of ego, and when it's eligible to obtain the Guru's Grace, only then one can get Liberation.' So, when You talk about renunciation of the ego, does that mean really it's only the ego that needs renouncing - no other thing?

Babaji:  

Because the problem started for the Soul somewhere time immemorial with an idea of - 'me' - means 'I', then things start as 'mine.' So when you are there with an idea of this is 'I am', so for that you want to have everything; 'this is mine, this is mine,' because you want to have happiness. So thus you become egoistic to own the things for your physical body. So if that ego is sacrificed - the idea of 'I' itself is sacrificed - that is the real renunciation. 

So then Guru's Grace automatically comes, and you will have that total tremendous faith and the actual surrender of the consciousness. Means now the mind is consciousness with a purity as there is no imagination of the 'I' itself. So there's no question of anything for me, 'I am happy with myself.' So like that. 

So that is why that point is written as sacrificing the ego. That is the base. That is the root cause. Once you get rid of that, you become receptive and you get connected to the Grace of the Divinity, Guru, which is flowing in all directions, and you get that one. That's the basic meaning. That's what you have to renounce actually. 

Nothing else. Means you can remain in a home, you can keep doing your business, job, everything - just mentally. So then what happens, you become happy with whatever you get. No craving.

Same Questioner:

Thank You Babaji. So you also refer to 'real renunciation'. So that suggests that there's renunciation which isn't real, where perhaps many of us renounce things, or think we're renouncing things, but it's not really renunciation?

Babaji: 

So many things. Like, holding in the mind but we try to renounce from outside. Like, "I renounce any other type of cloth and just try to wear the orange saffrons." That itself doesn't mean that I have renunciated. If I am holding the ego in the mind, simply by changing a cloth you don't become renunciated, that's what it is. So like that. 

If we simply renounce the home and go to a forest or a cave, as Swamiji said, we will be carrying our mind also. The mind’s ego, and the mind’s wanting to have, all this will continue. So then a real renunciation doesn't happen. So that's what real surrender, a renunciation happens when the mind becomes quiet into purity of its consciousness. Then, when there is nothing that we need, the idea of 'I' itself also gets dropped.

Same Questioner:

And can You explain the term 'Guru's Grace'. You say Guru's Grace is always flowing, could You explain a bit more about what that might be, please?

Babaji: 

The Grace is the nature of the Ultimate Truth that is Self - it is also known as Divinity. Right. Now, with the mind, with the consciousness, if you are able to go into introvert and touch that Divinity then the Grace automatically flows. 

Grace means your renunciation will become successful and eventually you gain the Awareness of the Self and you merge with the Self in fact. That's when you achieve the Self Realization. So once that is achieved, you are totally contented, you are just in peace with yourself.

Same Questioner:

So the Guru's Grace is automatically flowing. So whether somebody receives it is dependent on us and our state of mind and behavior?

Babaji: 

Yeah, it's flowing in all directions say, let us state. As Ramakrishna said, "You have to raise the sail to catch." And Swamiji used to say, "The Grace is flowing like Ganga, you have to raise a dam to catch the Grace." So then you become receptive, you have to surrender. 

That's why Guru-disciple relations comes very important here. You have a Guru, and you have to consider that as a Guru. And then you need to have reverence - then you become serious, then you surrender. Surrender means, mentally you won't analyze. What the Guru teaches you take it in good faith, and then start doing sadhana. 

Like for example, though we will give clue for meditation, or about Self, about the renunciation, all these things, you will understand only when you yourself achieve. For that you have to do sadhana as recommended by the Guru. 

To do sadhana you need to have faith, otherwise you will not be serious. "Well”, you tell, “I don't know what Babaji talks, it doesn't happen so I'm not going to do any meditation. I don't believe Him, I'm not convinced." So then you don't get anything. You are unable to have that faith, then you don't become receptive. That is necessary, you surrender.

Then you pay apt attention. I keep telling ‘apt attention’ when I'm teaching, when I am answering a question. Everybody there will have the apt attention if they are surrendering. Otherwise, many people may think in the class or in here, "This is not for me, so I already know all these things, I don't have to listen to this." Like that they become egoistic again. And then they don't listen. So they don't practice. Time simply passes by like that.

Just like the rabbit. It's running fast, and it starts thinking, "I can run fast and reach the goal any moment, not like the tortoise which has to go so slow it cannot move, so let me rest," and it went into deep sleep, it couldn't get up. The tortoise slowly went on going, going, going, and reached the goal. Like that, steady and consistent practice is necessary. This happens only when you have reverence, when you have that seriousness, when you are able to surrender. So that is when you have that faith. If you have faith - you will go for that - you won't keep thinking, wondering, analyzing, anything. You will simply take it in good faith.

Same Questioner:

Thank you. And You also use the term 'true Guru'. So what are the qualities of a true Guru?

Babaji:  

You see, first it is important that that disciple has that total faith. Acha, from our side, if you want to know what is a true Guru, a Self Realized Guru, first thing - he will not bind the disciple as a client. He will not try to exploit the student in any way. He will give the teachings. He will be happy, he will try to make the student stand on his or her own feet, like independent, achieve. 

He will tell, "This is my opinion, this is my experience. Now you adopt these methods if you are willing to, if you have faith - and then you practice - and then you will know the truth. Then you tell your opinion, what I am teaching is right or not. You don't have to simply believe like that. Just you need to have faith at the moment so that you can keep moving." That is the real Guru. 

So also, many things comes. In Guru Gita it talks, 'A Guru shall impart the knowledge and wisdom to the student without entering into any business contract type.' Means “If you give me five hundred dollars I will give you this knowledge” - not like. The ancient Indian practice hasn't been like that. There was no fixing of any rate. Only the disciple on her or his own wishes, capacity, contribute a certain amount so that the Guru can sustain his life and the institute that he would have established. That is what is known as Guru dakshina, that is the donation type. 

Otherwise no demand, the Guru will impart the knowledge, it is free of charge. You don't have to pay anything to get initiated, to practice meditation, to listen to what the techniques of meditation, all these things. That is the true Guru actually. So a Guru will not demand or plan to rob the property of the disciple, that is the real Guru. 

Same Questioner:

Thank you. How can a Yogi or a Guru teach in silence?

Babaji:

That's what you have to achieve. When the Master is silent, that is the message. In the mind you have to achieve silence - that is all needed. Once you achieve that one. So the Guru is conveying the message, “Become silent in every way. Quiet.” 

So that's what Ashtavakra gave the order to King Janaka. When he was about to sit on the horseback, that was the condition Janaka was keeping; “See, just before I sit on the horseback” - normally you put your left leg and then take up the right leg onto the horse body and sit- “Before that, in that moment, if anybody can give me Self Realization, Liberation, then I will accept them as Guru.”

So, so many learned people came, they tried to talk this, that, this, everything. But there are certain finer points - until that doesn't happen, Guru cannot do anything. Surrender. 

So that's why three conditions, Ashtavakra says, “First you come down the throne. As long as you have that ego, you will consider me as your servant and you will not surrender to me, and you won't like to learn anything. Then you will demand whatever it pleases I teach only that thing. That is not possible. You come down the throne. Sacrifice. You are no more king. I will be the king now, I will order.” 

“And then second condition, just follow me.” He followed, long distance he went. While on the way he went on teaching the philosophy also. “So now, as you have surrendered to me, you have to obey my orders. Is this okay for you? If you obey my order, I will give you Self Realization. If you do not obey, it's not my problem. Out”.

So then he said, "Okay, now you sit on the horseback." So he tried to sit on the horseback with left leg, and just the right leg was about to be placed on its other side, so then Ashtavakra shouted, "Quiet! Become quiet." 

So Janaka was ripe by then, he had really surrendered. Master orders ‘quiet’ - he became quiet. Bodily he became quiet. Mentally he became quiet - he did not bother anything, he did not think anything, did not analyze anything - totally silent. So then his consciousness went to Samadhi, he achieved that Self Awareness, "Oh, this is 'That'." 

So that is the Guru's Teachings one has to obey. Silent achievement. So then automatically you gain that Awareness. 

Until you don't achieve the silence you keep blaming the Guru. It's not the Guru's wrong thing, you have not surrendered properly. You are not listening to me in the class, and you are not following my orders, commands. You are wasting every week - after I go away after this class, the next one week you keep sleeping, and eating, and just going, 'Next Saturday let me see when this Master comes, then I will again sit for meditation, until then nobody is watching me.' So that cannot happen. So that's what the surrender, a real surrender.

Same Questioner:

Thank You. In fact this follows on this next quotation. You said, "Quality is important. If it is less in one place and strong in another place, still it would take one to the goal of Liberation. If longing for Liberation is moderate but one has total faith and devotion to the Guru, then Liberation is possible. 

So was that the same for You?

Babaji:

Yeah. When total faith is there your mind will recede and become quiet, it will not analyze. The Master orders, "Take the duster and dust this hall." You just take the duster and dust, you don't think, "Why I have to dust?" You take the duster and dust it. 

You look after the mentally challenged, you just look after the mentally challenged. You won't bother, "Why I have to do this? Why is that I have not been given the saffron monk, who dare? So everybody should call me Maharaj, Maharaj." No such demand, nothing. We are ordinary, we wash utensils in the Ashram, that's it. 

So like that your mind will not analyze. When it doesn't analyze it becomes silent. When the silence happens, then that awareness automatically comes, because consciousness has that awareness. Wherever it gets applied…if it gets applied to itself then it knows what it is. Or it gets applied to something else, whatever it imagines. So that's what happens. 

The moment you imagine, your awareness goes to that imagination. The moment you stop your imagination - so your awareness is on yourself. That is all the simple. Yet we have made it so complicated. Simply if you can listen and become quiet mentally you will have Liberation here and just now. You have to listen. That's what is faith.

Same Questioner:

So in Your twenty years serving Swamiji, you were peaceful, happy, mentally content, because you just got on with your work without thinking; the mental chatter wasn't there.

Babaji:  

Yes. The awareness had come. The Self Awareness was there. It was peaceful. Only the outside world didn't see me. Because outside world saw this physical body with a round, clean shaven head, and with a dhoti and going to market, bringing vegetables, bringing groceries and washing utensils, trying to cook rotis - and people demanded, "You cook for me, you do this for me." Mm... some elder big devotees were there, big guns what you call [Baba chuckles]. They expected that the Ashram people are like their servants, "So you do this for me, you look after this for me," like that. Went on doing, went on doing simply, never bothered, never analyzed. So that's how it went on. Simply the time passed by. 

Only in the five years that I sat in one room in this physical body, the form of the body changed. The hairs became a little bit matted and beard came up and all these things happened. So then people suddenly got to see, "Oh, this man has become a Swami now. There is a beard, there is a matted hair, all these things." Even then, nobody could see what was inside that was achieved. That Peace, that contentment, that Supreme Awareness of the Self. So it was already there, always there. 

Only so that I could teach. People will accept me as a teacher or teachings only when the outside form also changes. Otherwise nobody would have listened to me. Nobody would have bothered to sit for meditation or understand.

Few of them, one or two, like Ambaji had understood before even I went for a five years Tapas. She had accepted me as a Guru and she had listened to my answers, she was drawn so much and so much, and she simply started calling me superhuman. I thought this girl is mad, stupid. [Baba chuckles].

Same Questioner:

You also said that, "The Guru might appear inert, but they are compassionate. Such Pure Souls would share their experiences and help others to Realize the Self." Is that the real compassion, that You help people to become Liberated?

Babaji:

Like I spoke, the Ultimate Truth has the Grace in its nature, so if only you can touch in your consciousness the Grace flows. 

Like, electricity is there in the wire. If you touch then the electric current gives you a shock - that's automatic because the electricity is there. So because that compassion and that awareness is there, Grace automatically flows. That Grace is there, you see. 

So whatever I have - suppose in the mind I create some characters and I start thinking of a tragic story and all those characters suffering. Suddenly if some awareness comes, "Oh God, unnecessarily why have I made my own mind into these characters, and why do they have to suffer unnecessarily? There is no need. If at all I have to imagine, let me imagine all these characters having peace, Supreme Peace, at peace, Self Realization." So that is how. That's how I pray to God also, "So all this creation, please, bless them that everybody have this Supreme Peace, contentment, happiness, Self Awareness." Isn't that necessary? That should be the purpose. 

So like that we went on thinking, the Guru thinks, compassion comes. If nobody asks me anything, if nobody wants to learn anything, silently I would sit in a corner. I do that one. Day times, many times. Occasionally some people come to meet and they are spiritually interested and they start talking. Then the answers come, when they ask questions. 

Like when I come to zoom class also, you have helped me to conduct this class. And also you have helped me to program these classes into meditation, sadhana, and also as Q&A, question and answer, right? So you start, you ask questions, then the answer comes. If after meditation if you tell, “Babaji, I don't have any questions today, You can go," I will simply go, leave the meeting. That's it, what happens. So nothing comes to me. 

But if you want, I'm compassionate. I want all of you to gain this Awareness, this Truth. There is no secret in these answers, in this knowledge and wisdom of the Self. Free of charge - you don't have to pay anything. I don't want to patent this one as 'Shiva Rudra's philosophy', or any such thing, nothing. We cannot do any such things. It is freely available. Now you all edit and do the things and put it on the YouTube also, anybody can listen.

But when freely it is available, often majority of the humanity doesn't understand its value. They understand the value only when they pay for it - unfortunate. Still we don't need any payment, means we are compassionate. Somewhere, somebody will feel inspired - understand, "This is the Truth”. 

Same Questioner:

I think that leads nicely to the next point, which is “What can a devotee give to a Guru? What is the best offering to the Guru?”

Babaji:  

So you, yourself, you do the sadhana, consistently practice, have faith in my teachings and just try to silence your mind - that's all you have to do. And you achieve. When you achieve that Truth to yourself, that is the greatest donation, dakshina, that you can give me. You will give me the proudest moment at that moment. "Ah, this accepted me as a Guru. He didn't think that I'm an idiot, He thought that I have this knowledge. He's practicing meditation seriously, and he has that peace.” That's it.

Same Questioner:

So You've talked about the compassion of the Guru giving all these teachings, and for free. But You've also said that Swamiji could be very tough sometimes, and people could sometimes get scared and run away. So compassionate, but it's also important for the Guru to sometimes be a bit tough?

Babaji:

Yeah. A person who wants to go on this path needs to have tremendous amount of courage and determination. Do or die! Even if the Guru himself wants to disturb you, confuse you, challenge you, threaten you, "Nothing doing. I will do this. I need this one. [Babaji strikes finger on table to emphasize] You might be my Guru, you might be my God, you might be anything - I'm not going to give up meditation - I want this. This here and now." 

Sometimes Yama the Lord of death became tough and started talking rudely also it says, to Nachiketa. "Enough! How long you are going to keep asking this question? Okay, I will increase another 10,000 years, you become an emperor. Go and enjoy!"

"No. Is there anything to stop me from coming back here? This body has to die and I have to come back here?" Yama said "Yes, that is inevitable, nothing can stop; this body has to go. It has appeared, it has to disappear." 

"So then why do I need the emperorship for 10,000 years? Give that Self-knowledge here and now [Babaji strikes finger on table to emphasize]. Tell me what I have to do? What is it that I have to achieve? What is it that truth is?" 

So like that one has to be courageous and determined. 

So a great Guru like Swamiji, one of the greatest Gurus the world would have seen like that. He belonged to the ancient tradition. So the old saying is there - the Divine and the Lord Shiva and the Gurus, such Gurus, they will grind you, they will cut you into pieces, throw you into the river. If you remain steadfast, devoted, fearless, courageous, never look back - then that Guru will take you onto the lap. 

I may appear as soft and not tough, but please don't take me granted, I'm a very silent killer [Babaji chuckles]. I don't give up, if a student is not behaving properly, and not doing sadhana properly. Silently I will take [Babaji twists His closed hand here, like twisting a knife, chucking lightly afterwards]. You cannot even point out a finger that I was tough or I was rude, I was shouting. Yet you will feel that pain - somewhere, something happens [Twisting hand again like a knife]. 

So, a Guru will always test. Everybody will have their own way of doing. Some Guru may have the way of shouting, some other Guru may become tough, some other Guru may not talk, some other Guru may this. So different methods are there. So when I put you into test, I must not tell what type of test. That is the secrecy [Babaji laughs]. You won't even know when the test would come for you.

Same Questioner:

So some people I've heard say to You, "I authorize You as my Guru to test me." Does it work like that or is it actually not something that's said, but something that's done in the behavior?

Babaji:  

Yes, they have to behave. Not simply by words - many people are very clever. They talk, they talk very sweetly but they are not at all practical in their approach. When the time of test comes they miserably fail. They are like, "Ahh, we love You so much Babaji, we love You so much. We are ready to listen to You anything, You take a cane and hit me and do anything." But that is not true. It is just the front-line statement. The introverted from the depth of the heart - it's the behavior - when the test comes you must be there. You have to stand by the Guru, never look back. When practically you do that, that is visible, not by words. 

Same Questioner:

So You also said that a sincere seeker should be really tired of this world. Could you explain more about this?

Babaji:  

Yeah, like we tell, to gain that 'vairagya', detachment, a firm conviction about the impermanence of this world needs to be there. And mind keeps running after this world for wanting happiness, pleasure, enjoyment - peace finally - base word. And so the mind doesn't come back easily, it keeps running. 

Only when it realizes - it itself realizes - not by lectures, talking, teaching. It itself realizes, “This is it, this is the world, it’s always like that”, and really feels tired, “Enough is enough Shaolin, let's go back home”. So that is when the real vairagya comes, and such a person jumps into it. 

By God's Grace, by the Divine Guru’s Grace that came to us - as a young boy I picked it up. I didn't ask Swamiji, "I feel like coming to Ashram, what should I do, should I come or not come?"[signals a refusal with hand] "I want to come." He said, "Come." I came. Finish. Never looking back. That is all. 

Because wherever in this world, in whichever path, when you start the journey, in the beginning it might be pleasurable, glamorous, something, this, a lot of imagination, but as you go on and on, it becomes tough. Test for your determination always comes - your real devotion, your real wanting that. So to face that you need to have enormous courage, strength of mind. Quietly be soft, let anybody criticize, "He's an idiot, he doesn't know anything, he's very soft, he cannot even reply to somebody, he cannot even shout." No problem. Inside - you are tough. Outside you look very idiot and soft, and fearful, you get scared very quickly appears, appears to others. But you don't give up your place, you are always there. Keep going, keep going, keep going, keep going. That is necessary.

Same Questioner:

So You've also said, referring to going to the Ashram, "Often, one could simply be going to the abode of the Guru to escape responsibilities." In other words, in the West we talk about people 'dropping out' of society. But for You it's not that. It's about going to the Ashram to really study very hard and change yourself, which is a really tough thing.

Babaji: 

Yeah. You see actually the real answer is, we came to Ashram or to the abode of Guru not to escape any responsibility or anything. Just we wanted to adopt this way of life - this was suitable to my temperament, I wanted, and just came. So whatever came here, I never regretted, I never worried, I never had any setback, nothing;  "All right, it's okay. Wanted this Guru so I'm happy to undergo anything, any test."  Like with that attitude we simply went ahead, went ahead. 

Many people have come, in my life, in Swamiji's life with big, big words, "I want to stay in the Ashram, we want to be a brahmacharya, and we want to go on this path, and..." [snapping His fingers] Very soon they lose that strength, that determination. Because inside they will always have a personal agenda - to escape this, to escape that - when it comes to do that, then they go back, they cannot take it anymore. That's what happens. 

So adjustment and management - remember? Always my teachings. So if you have that, no looking back. I used to think like, Swamiji was made to sit for Tapas, then if He wanted He could have got up, and go back home and do business, everything. Nobody was there, nobody would have stopped Him finally if He wanted to go. But He didn't go. He came. He continued with for twelve years. This was said by the Jangama Sage, and He said, "If that's it no problem. Twelve years I will sit. Only death can stop me from doing. Nothing else." That is the final straw, you see? So like that. 

The same thing Swamiji tried to tell some of His other disciples. No, they couldn't take it. Couldn't take the pressure of the mind wanting to break open and run into this world. So as Vasistha talks, “The mind runs into the wilderness of this forest called world. So aimlessly it keeps moving, moving, moving, moving. It binds itself with its own attitudes, temperaments, doing this, doing that. So wants the whole world to adjust to it.”

The world has its own, the creation has its own script. We want - this has to happen like this for us, this Ashram has to be like this. It doesn't happen. Because the Divine has scripted in a different way. Finally we salute [Babaji saluting here], “Okay my Lord, whatever You want You do it, but inspire my wisdom that I don't lose peace.” Surrender. 

So like that, things happen, but your determination is necessary, never look back. It's very tough. But if you are tough, you can go very easily. It becomes very ordinary, you don't mind for anything. When you want the Guru... like you have a best friend - so when two people are best friends, they let go many things, small, small things never become an issue at all. One tells something to the other, another tells something to the other, one did this thing, another did this thing, one didn't come. "We are friends. It's no issue. No problem." Like that it you keep on happening. Like that you forgive and forget, and keep things.

36:16