Bay Area to Yale to Italy and Back Again: A Chat with Miriam Hitchcock

Miriam Hitchcock is a California based artist, mother and teacher, who has had a fascinating and prestigious career that has taken her from San Francisco, to Yale to Italy and back again. We dig into the "boys club" that was present in the east coast art scene when she was there, living in Italy, the east coast vs. west coast critiques, the "camp" of abstraction, motherhood, and more.

Miriam primarily makes paintings often using eccentric shaped formats. She uses a hybrid visual language that is both abstract and figurative, fusing domestic and landscape elements. To me, her work is simultaneously quirky and elegant. Her shaped substrates have an animated quality that magically work with her simplified forms and colors.

Miriam's home and studio are on an Arroyo and Santa Cruz, California, where she lives with her spouse, two cats and an Australian shepherd, a bay area, native Merriam completed her BFA at the university of California, Santa Cruz, and received her MFA in painting from Yale.

She began teaching, painting, drawing, and design at Brown and Rhode Island school of design. She was also an assistant professor at Cornell university led studio courses in Rome ,Italy through both Cornell and the American university. Returning to live in Santa Cruz in 1990, she taught drawing and painting courses at Stanford and San Jose state. She was a continuous member of the art faculty at university of California, Santa Cruz from 1992, until 2012.

Miriam's website: http://www.miriamhitchcock.com

Miriam's work on Jen Tough Gallery: https://jentough.gallery/collections/miriam-hitchcock

Miriam's work on Artsy: https://www.artsy.net/artist/miriam-hitchcock/works-for-sale

Transcript

Jen Tough: 0:00

Welcome to Tough on Art, the podcast for artists interested in ways to get ahead in today's art market. I'm Jen Tough owner of Jen Tough Gallery and the Artist Alliance community. Join me for some down to earth. Talk about the best ways for artists to navigate this new and different landscape. I'm very excited today to present this interview. with Santa Cruz, California based artist, Miriam Hitchcock. But before we get started, I want to personally invite you to become a member of the Artist Alliance, where we're one month into our stay at home winter residency, the Artist Alliance offers emerging and mid-career artists of any medium and style, a community of like-minded friendly and supportive artists. of all levels. We also offer a ton of informative workshops and meetups promotion on our Instagram channel challenges and exhibitions where members earn a hundred percent on any sales membership is only 36 bucks a month. You guys cancel any time. So join us. Sign up at Artist Alliance membership.com. Miriam primarily makes paintings often using eccentric shaped formats. She uses a hybrid visual language that is both abstract and figurative, fusing domestic and landscape elements. To me, her work is simultaneously quirky and elegant. Her shaped substrates have an animated quality that magically work with her simplified forms and colors. Miriam's home and studio are on an Arroyo and Santa Cruz, California, where she lives with her spouse, two cats and an Australian shepherd, a bay area, native Merriam completed her BFA at the university of California, Santa Cruz, and received her MFA in painting from Yale. She began teaching, painting, drawing, and design at Brown and Rhode Island school of design. She was also an assistant professor at Cornell university led studio courses in Rome,Italy through both Cornell and the American university. Returning to live in Santa Cruz in 1990, she taught drawing and painting courses at Stanford and San Jose state. She was a continuous member of the art faculty at university of California, Santa Cruz from 1992, until 2012, you can find Miriam's work on the Jen Tough gallery website on Artsy and on Miriam's website. All links of course are in the show notes. I can't wait to get started. So, hi everybody. Welcome to Tough on Art. I'm Jen, and today I am talking to the infamous Miriam Hitchcock and Mariam you're in Santa Cruz right now, right?

Miriam Hitchcock: 2:29

Yes, I am

Jen Tough: 2:30

And you're in a cold studio. I understand.

Miriam Hitchcock: 2:33

It's it's gradually warming up.

Jen Tough: 2:36

Yeah. Everybody thinks that California's always so warm. Like when I was living in Ohio, you know, I remember the first time I went to San Francisco, it was like in, you know, I was maybe like 14 and I thought, oh, you know, you always just think of LA or San Diego. Right. If you think it's always going to be, you know, beachy and, and it's not, it can be cold. It can even be cold in LA and Southern California

Miriam Hitchcock: 2:58

and San Francisco famously gets very, very cold. Well, my studio is a converted garage, so. There's a cement floor and I've got a rubber a rubber floor covering the cement, but you know, it's slow to heat up. It's actually great in the heat of the summer. And we really do have a lot of those days. So this is a really great place to be in the warmer months.

Jen Tough: 3:22

Yeah. So how long have you been in Santa Cruz or California? Tell me about your background.

Miriam Hitchcock: 3:27

Well, I was born in California. I was born in San Francisco and grew up on the peninsula and and then I went see, I went to college in Santa Cruz. I love Santa Cruz early on. So this is going back a ways. This is like the seventies and. You know, I love this place. It's a, it's a very special sort of location. You know, there's a surf and sand and there's a beautiful Redwood forest and great hiking paths and good birding. And it's just a lovely place. And back when I originally was attracted to the place, it was very counter cold. Yeah. I was at like a hippy campus and you know, plop right down in the middle of this beautiful Redwood forest. So you know, that I would just kind of grew up as a kind of quintessential say hippie, California girl. And I didn't really get a perspective on that at all until I moved east for grad school. And so I went to grad school, started teaching, tried to stay in and around New York bounced back and forth a little bit. But I moved back here after teaching my job at Cornell, which was a three-year job. And part of that three-year job, I got to go to Italy and teach. I was teaching Cornell students in Italy, so that was. But I I felt really pressed upon the the full-time faculty duties were really rough on me for various reasons has three year old. And I decided to take a year's leave of absence and come back to Santa Cruz. And my partner had a little house here. So once I got here, I really didn't want to go back to academia in that way, in that same role. So I stayed and my partner started making work, making some money so that we had a two working household. And he's an electrician or was an electrician. And I started teaching part-time and that, that worked great. So I taught, I've taught in this area. Part-time it was really like coming home and you know, I've realized that home is important to me and my daughter. I love the idea of raising my daughter in California and having her be at California. She was starting to develop a strange accent. So I just had to get back. You know, I knew it would come with sacrifices because the art world was very, even more monolithic back then and around New York and even the LA scene was really up and running. So I knew it'd be in an isolated location, but my, my academic duties had kept me in a very isolated place anyway. So I decided to just. Go back and regroup. And I stayed. So for, you know, since 1992 to 2012, I was just sort of teaching in and around this area, mostly at UCSC back at UCSC very different department, very different environment than the one that I studied in. I loved teaching. But then the time came to sort of step away. And when I could step away, I did, that was in 2012. So now I have I don't have to juggle, you know, my life in the classroom and the moneymaking. With my studio life. When so many years was the big issue, you know, from a raising my daughter and grabbing hours between naps. All that picking her up from school last year. So you know, I have really had three jobs for a long time. Like, I mean, this is pretty typical, probably. So I had raising a daughter, even though I had a partner helped me with that and I had the teaching for money and then I had, you know, trying to get in my studio every minute. And it's nice to have a more relaxed. You know, own your own time now. I mean, it's an amazing luxury. I wake up and, you know, I look on my partner and say, isn't it pretty? We don't have to go to work. You know, I do work and I always get sort of bristled when people say I'm a, a woman of leisure or something because I do work very hard as GM. I love, I love being in here. I put in a lot of hours and and it's great. I finally have a nice kind of. Versatile space so that I can work on paper. I can work on the floor. I have an animation table, which is a very kind of crude set up with an overhead camera mount and I can move between works on paper and paintings pretty easily. So all that, an answer to the question of how long am I going to Santa Cruz?

Jen Tough: 8:08

Well, let's go back a little bit to when you said that you first went to the east coast in California, when was that? Was that when you went for grad school?

Miriam Hitchcock: 8:18

Yes, I went to grad school

Jen Tough: 8:19

at Yale what year was that., that

Miriam Hitchcock: 8:23

was 79.

Jen Tough: 8:24

Oh, cause you know what I remember hearing, I was in college in the eighties, early eighties, and I remember hearing or sorry, mid eighties. What am I saying? I remember hearing how sexist and boys' club Yale was in their painting department. Yeah. Yeah.

Miriam Hitchcock: 8:40

I mean, they they were, they were aware of it. I think that, you know, I mean the whole context for art making was still very by. It was really pronounced and it wasn't. I got to the east coast and to grad school that I had female teachers in painting. So they had a very predominantly male faculty, but they made sure that they had visiting artists that were women and some visiting artists came in and stayed for a year and taught classes, you know, so it was like a temporary position. And so in that. I got to work with Judy Fath and Elizabeth Murry and that, that was just like amazingly great for me, you know? And like just to yeah, I mean, in so many subtle and big ways talking to a woman and seeing how they navigate seeing how they teach to, because. The model of teaching that I'd sort of gone through, I wasn't particularly happy with. So, you know, it helped me find my feet and it was an exciting time to be there, although it was a very polarized sort of a scene there, there was the figurative artists and there was the abstractionists and I Kind of, you know, I have been happy sort of bridging both in undergrad. And when I went to Yale I sort of joined the abstract camp. And and I did that for the full time I was there actually for about 10 years I painted abstractly. And it was a nice way for me to sort of. Understand formal issues. You know, it was kind of a, it was kind of a path clearing for me. Everything kind of laid bare so that I could concentrate on the formal issues. I really hadn't heard even heard the word formal until I went to graduate school. So I had a lot of catching up to do. My, my peers, there all seemed more. In tuned with what was going on. A lot of them had gone to art schools. A lot of them were from New York. It was a big culture clash for me, and I didn't feel it so much as a sexist environment as just a huge culture class coming from you know, my free love hippie hippie days to you know, New Haven is a pretty harsh urban. I dunno if they've improved it, but you know, you had to really be on guard. I was living in the city for the first time there.

Jen Tough: 11:16

Yeah. I. When I lived in Los I lived in Los Angeles most of my life. And even just going in the nineties, I moved to Philadelphia for a job. And the, there was a culture clash for sure. I mean, I remember, you know, first I gave up my car, you know, which was, that was enough, but it just, even just the you know, just the. The sort of the interactions that you have with people in stores or you know, everybody honked, you know, like even if you're a red light car, cars are honking, you know, and it was just this sort of, this there's like this compared to California, there's like this aggression kind of, you know,

Miriam Hitchcock: 11:53

and there, there is people feel each other out and just interact. Differently. I mean, I don't know to what a scent is still like that, but it was, it was very conspicuous to me and I I sort of just shut up and watched for awhile. And my unlike a lot of people who sort of found graduate school could be kind of a finishing school and they bounce out on the art scene. For me, it was a very turbulent time of self examination in terms of art-making and you know, it was very disruptive and there's a lot about people in my work. I didn't really make good work there, but I it was, you know, really critical to my development, you know, and I really loved the fact that I can go there. And I can go and listen to critiques where people cared about painting. They cared about painting so much that they argued and they, you know, they argued with you know, Gusto. It was exciting. Because part of the difficulty of that I found I'm being a painter out here and being an artist in general. The isolation had finding people who care as much as you do about it. So it really gave me that. And I just ate it up I ate it up. It was a huge growing period for me.

Jen Tough: 13:10

Yeah. There's the difference in current between east coast and west could somebody could write a book on that because people on the west coast, I think are like, they're afraid of hurting feelings. You know, and so there, you know, I'm not really sure how constructive sometimes crits can be, because there's just this general culture of, you know, not wanting to hurt feelings. And so, you know, there's just, there's a lot of priority put on expression versus like more of those formal things that you touched on, you know, in, in in school It's it's interesting, but I mean, it sounds like you're, you know, just basically stressed out while you were in grad school. It just, this cultural difference. Right?

Miriam Hitchcock: 13:53

Well, I was just immensely stimulated, you know, I mean, it was, it was really thrilling. It was really very exciting, more than stressed out. I mean, I suppose I was, I remember that I'd lay in bed at night and I would have like a slideshow of images going through my head. I was just being bombarded with. New ideas, new imagery. I was working really hard, long hours in studio and arguing and talking with other, with my peers and yeah. It's kind of nice that what used to be more, maybe more so it's nice that the academic setting can give the the person who is the faculty member, the. Permission to be critical, you know, and that's a lot harder to get among your peers. I mean, it's, it's rare that you can never friendship. I do have some thankfully where you can actually say, you know, that's not working and this is why I think so, you know? And that's, that's so important.

Jen Tough: 14:53

It is important. How was it when you were in Italy teaching? What was that? What was that like?

Miriam Hitchcock: 15:00

Well, it was my first time in Italy, which was kind of odd. I, I was asked to teach there. Actually, I volunteered to teach there after the person who was supposed to, who was in line to go, who is. Also a fairly new faculty member, but she dropped out. She had sort of a personal issue. And so I was really the only choice of the faculty and I was really green and, you know, I'm never having been to Italy. So I was in the art and art in an art and architecture program and we were right in central historical in the plotso of Masimo and I had a group of about 10 students. So really small compared to the classes I was used to teaching, I took only 10 students over with me. And a lot of what we did there was just interfacing with the city and learning about architecture on the side, because we had this very strong architectural program that we were attached to. And it's just obviously the thing to do when you're in Rome, because it's a monumental place with such deep history. And I, I got along pretty well there. I've S I've since taught in Italy, so it's hard for me to remember back to my Cornell time in Italy. I had, we had a little studio in the basement. And a pretty good group of kids Cornell students in general, or well-prepared to concentrate on their work. And so that wasn't an issue. It was, it was great experience. Hardest thing was having a three-year-old daughter. So thankfully I took my partner with me and he was kind of my wife. But he put our three-year-old daughter on a bus out of town every morning where she goes to the American school and she learned to count with her thumb first. You know, she displaying some real at times. She's got a great accent still, even though she doesn't really speak it. So that was, you know, teaching and having you know, demands of the job and the workplace while you have young kids is stressful. So. It was without a doubt, stressful, but also just, they're very cool, very stimulating, very eye opening. I mean, Rome was a place where you can stand on a corner and really see the layers of history. And for California, you know, just about knocks you down, it's, it's phenomenal, you know, to get that tangible glimpse time, really the evidence. So I kind of craved that as a California and I think it, it has informed the fact that when I travel, I like to go to ancient places. And so in general, when I think back on teaching for Cornell, the first time it was, it was great. The chair of the Italian segment was you know, Roberto Ionadi. And he was in charge of restoration of monuments. He had this he's from a very prominent family and he had this great sort of entree to the sites. So for instance, when we went to Pompei, he had the keys and he would open the doors that were usually locked to them, to the public. There were field trips, almost involved in it. And Yeah, again, that whole immersion and a new culture was exciting and stimulating and wonderful life. I've gone back many, many times seem to go back just better chance I get. And if I'm planning a trip, I usually try and put a few days in Rome there. Cause I've gotten to know it pretty well. It's nice. It's a place that. Land, and don't have to look at a map, you know, which is kind of great, you know, cause when you try to be so stressful and I have, you know, favorite places to visit and it's good. I've had a lot of chance to draw from a lot of the collections there now. It's a great place and I didn't want to come back to Ithica and New York where Cornell is cause that's there in the cold Northeast part of the Northeast and they are, they still have jackets on and have freezing ice storms in March sometimes. So again, being in California and then that was so. Difficult. And actually my life at Cornell was far more difficult than my life when I was teaching in Italy or at Cornell, that was kind of a nice vacation, although there's plenty of work to do vacation from colleagues. I mean, those that's sort of Ivy league and the schools can really have a lot of tension between faculty members and. Yeah, there were lawsuits between faculty members. There's a lot of unpleasant drama. I mean, he wasn't involved, but there was a lot of a lot of tension kind of

Jen Tough: 19:45

lawsuits with would teachers have it gets, I mean, don't give names, but

Miriam Hitchcock: 19:51

there was one I remember. Yeah, I think that was the big one. And then there were other, there was always, people were very private, you know, there was always I think it was very compartmentalized. Like it every, every action was political, but that again was very uncomfortable and very new for me. It became like a political issue. If you said hi to somebody in the It was kind of very, very hard.

Jen Tough: 20:18

It wasn't competitive. Was that the thing like the,

Miriam Hitchcock: 20:21

jostling for advancement within the faculty? I mean, I dunno if this is very interesting, but usually there, the entering younger faculty get pressed upon to do a lot of duties. They're sort of proving themselves. So I did, I had, I had a lot of, this is partly why I had to leave in three years. So I've had a lot of extra stuff to do. And they had a small graduate program. So I was teaching classes of very serious, big classes of serious art students. And then I was teaching grad school. And I had a very young daughter and I had all this unpleasant colleagues.

Jen Tough: 21:01

It sounds pretty awful.

Miriam Hitchcock: 21:03

Yeah. I mean, I always kind of I was kind of an idiot about the fact that you need alliances and you need to make alliances. I only gradually became the everybody else around me was thinking very strategically about who was on their side, if a boat came to the faculty table and that sort of thing. And I tried to avoid it and it was only to my detriment really, because I didn't really have strong Allegiances

Jen Tough: 21:30

also where people were professors sort of, did they advance through the ranks based on how much, I mean, I'm just talking about art professors, you know, based on their reputation outside of the school or was it yeah.

Miriam Hitchcock: 21:48

And you know, like a lot of academic jobs you advance as soon as somebody else wants to hire you. And that happened if you were exhibiting and yeah, you're always, I mean, I was always, I was driving to New York, which is a long and horrendous drive, especially in the weather or the world. And I'm trying to keep and develop you know, a network there. Right. So it was a lot to do. It was, I burned out really

Jen Tough: 22:18

that's a lot. Cause I mean, plus you're dealing with all this sort of subtle or not so subtle sexism for sure. You know, and just trying to be taken seriously, you know, sort of not looked at as highly as a, as a white male, you know, just in society. That's a lot, that's a lot to deal with and being a mom.

Miriam Hitchcock: 22:43

Yeah. I mean we were aware, I was aware that I was one of the early female. I was a very young female faculty member. But honestly I spent more time thinking about. You know, advancing myself than I did about the fact that I was being looked down upon because I was a woman. I, there definitely was a sense that you had to prove yourself. And maybe that was greater because I was carrying a lot of baggage about, you know, imposter syndrome, you know, can I do this? And that's right.

Jen Tough: 23:16

Yeah. I mean, isn't it weird? I don't know if you found this, but like, I think back in like the eighties and nineties, like when I was, you know, when I was working or when, you know you know, sort of advancing through my career, you don't really like, you know, it's there like the sexism and stuff, but I didn't really notice how bad it was until like, I look back on it 20 years later and then I'm like, holy shit. How, what, you know, You know, and I don't know if that's because I've changed and matured or if it's because the world's changed and it's like, okay, to talk about it now, or I don't know. What do you think,

Miriam Hitchcock: 23:56

talk about it now without being immediately label the problem, right? Yeah, no. I mean when I was first getting interviewed for jobs, I was asked if I was married. And if you were, that was a problem, you know, that then they'd sort of say, well, you know, they sort of feel out how much your partner made and was he willing to move? And that sort of thing. I know lots of questions that are off limits. I also had the uncomfortable feeling of going through all the interviews with all male faculty. One time being asked out, like ambiguously asked out right after the interview.

Jen Tough: 24:37

Oh my God.

Miriam Hitchcock: 24:39

I mean, just stuff that I think women knew not to do, but yeah.

Jen Tough: 24:48

Yeah. So how do you think all of these sort of experiences, all these, you know, Italy and this sort of, you know, rough, I mean, it sounds rough like this east coast rough, right? Like we would have been for me too, I think for anybody, any woman, I think in that position. I mean, I remember when I first saw on your resume that you, you know, you got your master's at Yale and I was like, whoa. Cause I just remember hearing stories about the painting department in particular.

Miriam Hitchcock: 25:16

Oh, did you? Yeah. What might've generated that? I mean, there was some Bruno. Yeah, you're tough guys. And yeah, there was a lot of sexism for sure.

Jen Tough: 25:28

So how do you think, do you think that all, I mean, it has to have informed your work at this point. Like just all of these experiences have sort of fed into what you're producing now, but do you see any like direct. Sort of correlation or response to those experiences?

Miriam Hitchcock: 25:47

Particular. I mean, it's interesting. I am not an artist who can take on a. Political or social issue straight on. I started doing incrementally and sort of choose my places and it's become apparent to me that my work has really filtered through autobiography. And I, I think I could have consciously made a choice to to use a lot of female characters in the, the figures that I've used. I had a strange experience when I started to the figure again, I really just sort of felt like I had to learn how. If I would do it, if I would just sit down and generate a figure, it would be a male figure which was really weird. And so I felt like I had to sort of, well, I had to learn the figure and I felt like in particular, I needed to figure out the female figure and how that could be used and should be used. Especially since it was so charged. Thinking back on sentences in the art, it can feel within models who were always female nudes and that was never discussed really. And that was my experience, you know, I learned to draw female nudes and I think I've kind of found my comfort and greatest area of interest in the clothed figure. And I love the female clothed figure. I mean, it's, it's endless wonderful, really. And that's, that's been kind of an evolution it's kinda hard to track, but I know initially my sort of breakthrough moment when I found myself unable to avoid the figure anymore was after having my daughter and drawing her head. And it sort of evolved from there. I didn't really embrace figuration again until I moved back to Santa Cruz in 1992. So I have. It's history on the east coast where people knew me as an abstractionist and a. And because of that sort of hard polarity and sort of two camp system that I, you know, that was really visceral back then. I mean, it, it does exist in some form. Now there was a sense that, you know, you were leaving the clan or, you know, you're, there's some portrayal there by, by breaking it up and leaving. And I, you know, I have good female friends who are abstractionists and I know. Difficulty and them accepting this. You know, there's a sense that, and I really had strong conviction that abstracting is a complete language and I loved it a lot. And so for me, the process of embracing figuration and putting that in the mix was you know, finding a way for them to come and say you know, overtly, I certainly there's a lot about the tradition of figurative painting that doesn't interest me in the least. So that's why I say sometimes if I'm an abstractionist who ran out of reasons to have eliminates figure. Yeah. I still think very abstractly then. I don't know. I can't even remember your original question at this point.

Jen Tough: 28:54

Well, it doesn't matter. What is, you said that you found that, that you find the female form endlessly. Wonderful.

Miriam Hitchcock: 29:01

Yeah. Well, the figure in general, but the female form, especially yeah, I mean the sense the opportunity to deal with drape. Yeah. The, the sort of S social signaling and history of fashion is is a part of it. And you know, that's, that's kind of wonderful. So that becomes a part of a mix. I did a series this is a little bit of a tangent, but it reminds me a lot of my use of the female figure. I experienced a very tragic death in my family 1995. And I became really obsessed with the afterlife with people who were meeting deaths unprepared. And I was thinking a lot about this kind of limbo state I obviously was in crisis and I was also in therapy and reading Realta cause he helped he's really one of the few authors I could find that kind of when at it yes, an afterlife. And so in that. And sort of time period. Let's see. That's like the 1990s, late 1990s. I was I started the painting, a lot of aftermath and ruin and this kind of quasi limbo state of a person being, meeting death and being unprepared for it. And Sort of coming to terms with it and meaning how they looked. I mean, it's a great mystery, right? It is a great mystery. And because I had lost somebody very close to me and I think that person was unprepared for death. I was really consumed with this mean, it's very personal, but it was part of feeling like that person didn't need me anymore. And did that, you know, cause when something tragic happens to somebody you're close to and you weren't there, there's just a tremendous amount of grief and concern. That's hard to let go. Anyway, that project sort of culminated in. These, this body of work that was really about heaven and imagined heaven I don't really believe in the Christian idea of heaven it was after life. And I discovered that in that afterlife that I was creating, the people were really well-dressed. I mean, they were fashionable and and that was really fun. So I was just I sort of gave myself permission to. You know, from this having been in this very abstract territory and sort of rudimentary, really rudimentary, really dealing with the figure and as quasi abstract way, then suddenly I was dealing with the details of fashion, you know, the curve of a collar and, you know, the length of the dress. I was looking a lot of thirties and forties women. Yeah. So I sort of the dike broke there about that being that being possible for me, you know, cause I'm aware that I'm still you know, I'm still really rooted in that abstract language and also in that kind of polarity. It's hard for me to I'm always asking myself questions about it. So, anyway, that was an important body of work. I was glad to step away from it when I could. But I found that at that point, I, you know, it was obvious to me that I was interested in the draped figure and that, you know, I could look at fashion magazines for God's sake and I could enjoy them and I could bring them into my paintings and. You know, that we were talking about before, about sexism and you question about the female body, you know, it was so difficult, such a very difficult subject because I'd seen it dealt with so poorly. So I, I sort of kind of found my way through the draped to figure and through really lifting from fashion.

Jen Tough: 32:51

Do you think that, you know, sometimes I think there's always, you know, even though artists are sort of known as rulebreakers and in, in one sense they're told you need to be a rule breaker to, you know, To sort of make your mark in a way, but yet at the same time, there's always these rules of art school and rules of the art world. Like you're sort of touching on, you said you gave yourself permission to explore this other.

Miriam Hitchcock: 33:18

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's hard to admit, but that's, you know, where I sort of developed. This, these notions about rules was also a really critical period of growth where I really got attached to what I was making in a, in a deep way. And I didn't want to lose sight of that. You know, my, a lot of my heroes are abstractionists and certainly Elizabeth Murray. So I I always ask myself, you know it's always a question. And I think that slows me down. I see artists who don't have that sort of, they don't have to check in with their history in that way. And it looks like it's a lot of fun, but for me, I always, I always make changes very incrementally. And I always question, I, it reminds me of that. Painful period outside, just outside of grad school, where I went in the studio and it was literally like I had 10 artists sitting there, 10 famous artists, you know, there'd be Hans Hoffman. There'd be L hell, there'd be Elizabeth Murray. There'd be Monet there'd be, you know, just out read David Smith and I was so sort of critical. And so I'm concerned with the you know, with the tradition, I guess really I'm finding my place in it and And I was so isolated, actually that it took me a long time to get those people out of my studio. And so they wouldn't beat me up and keep me from doing things, but it was really like that for, for a while for me. And it's not anymore, which is nice. Now I can, I can think about that angle. You know, like there's this big Joni Mitchell show here and San Francisco, and it was easy to project myself back to the seventies and eighties and abstract, especially as I'm of course I'm the sort of aftermath or the sort of second generation abstract expressionists. And it was interesting to look at that work that was so. Central to my thinking and so much part of my my initial sort of growth and development is. No. I really thought of myself as a expressionistic and accent, especially as to the extent that I, you know, started smoking, you know? So it was weird and really interesting to get some perspective on that work. I may have felt very far away from it. There was, I admired the work but I didn't love the work. You know, there was occasional paintings that I felt like I really loved, but. It's funny. I mean, that, that's kind of a wonderful, ongoing thing where artists look different to you at different times. So it was, it was fun just recently to check in with abstract expressionism in that way with Joni Mitchell.

Jen Tough: 36:17

Well, you know, you're not the only one who said that in some ways art school can ruin you, you know, like, right. Like you always have those voices in your head and you mentioned. You know, you see other people who are abstract expressions now, and they don't have those voices. They don't have those rules. And those, those, those interior critics that are always, you know, to break free from that to a certain degree, that's like an art in itself. Right.

Miriam Hitchcock: 36:46

It's a process. And some people seem to do it more easily than others, but you know, I think that I I generally want to behave well, I'm not a re I'm not a rebel, you know? So it was hard for me. I wanted those heroes of mine to be comfortable with what I was doing. So I was always checking in. I mean, it's kind of a imposter scenario that I'm talking about, but it took a while.

Jen Tough: 37:09

Yeah. I mean, I think it, it, I think, especially for women who go through that, absolutely. You know, because you went through that very traditional, very prestigious, you know, path of the way things should be quote unquote and. It takes a lot of liberation, I think.

Miriam Hitchcock: 37:28

Yeah. Oh yeah. And then of course there was a period late, late nineties, early two thousands. When people really weren't interested in painting. But the art world is showing exibit exhibiting marketplace seem to be shrinking to two painters that just like, and there was an academic had, there was a lot of our open hostility to painting as a privileged, medium, and. Yeah, that was a big political overlay. There always is. But especially in academia. So as I continue to teach, I had to sort of deal with that. And you know, their isolation was very miserable. It's hard to be in Santa Cruz. You know, I show there's almost no place to exhibit here, so I. Yeah, I can go outside of the area, which I, I try and do. Often Yeah, it's like kind of got lost in my thoughts.

Jen Tough: 38:31

No. That's okay. This has been, so I love this conversation with you so much.

Miriam Hitchcock: 38:37

Oh my gosh the time.

Jen Tough: 38:41

Was, it was, it was really, I really valued this time with you Miriam a lot. It was great. Thanks for sharing so much. And I, I have so much admiration truly for. You know, for not only for your work, but for what you went through, you know, as a woman, I mean, not saying you're like, you know, a victim or anything, but I mean, that's a lot of shit to deal with back then.

Miriam Hitchcock: 39:06

Yeah.

Jen Tough: 39:07

And you know, you definitely deserve a lot of, you know, you got my respect for

Miriam Hitchcock: 39:13

that because there were role models. Thankfully. I mean, there were out there. Yeah,

Jen Tough: 39:20

but those are rough days for women in art, especially painters

Miriam Hitchcock: 39:26

feel they're getting better. And yeah. And people like you, I think are immediately taking those biases head on, which is really wonderful to see biases of gender and age and even geographic region.

Jen Tough: 39:41

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, what the, what the eighties and seventies, eighties, and nineties, you know, for women, like, you know, that sort of discrimination and, or, you know, I was never blatant. It was just, you know, it was quiet, but it was there, but now it's, it's it's to me. Biggest issue is is age-ism. I mean, it's just, it's really? Yeah. Yeah. It's really, it's really bad. So anyway, thank you for joining me.

Miriam Hitchcock: 40:09

It's really nice to have a chance to talk to you.

Jen Tough: 40:15

Yeah, thank you so much for listening and supporting this podcast. Your support means everything. If you'd like to learn more about the Artist Alliance community, send me a question or learn about other events or projects coming up, please visit my website at www.Jentough.gallery. See you next time.