All artists know the importance of showing their artwork. But what about showing themselves? Ask most artists, and you'll get.... "ugh".
Today Jen talks with therapist and artist Dr. Dee Tivenan, EdD, MFT about the anxiety of showing up online, showing ourselves, selfie culture, and how it can cause, well.... dread. Dee presents easy to follow tips and tricks to help alleviate this dread and anxiety, soften any blows that may come, and how to keep moving forward.
Dee Tivenan is an artist and therapist in the Bay Area of California, has been in private practice for over 35 years, and hosts "Head Talk" in the Artist Alliance community. Check out her art on her website: https://deetivenanartist.wixsite.com/home
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All artists know the importance of showing their artwork. But what about showing themselves? Ask most artists, and you'll get.... "ugh".
Today Jen talks with therapist and artist Dr. Dee Tivenan, EdD, MFT about the anxiety of showing up online, showing ourselves, selfie culture, and how it can cause, well.... dread. Dee presents easy to follow tips and tricks to help alleviate this dread and anxiety, soften any blows that may come, and how to keep moving forward.
Dee Tivenan is an artist and therapist in the Bay Area of California, has been in private practice for over 35 years, and hosts "Head Talk" in the Artist Alliance community. Check out her art on her website: https://deetivenanartist.wixsite.com/home
JOIN THE CONVERSATION ON KINDLING our free art marketing community!
www.Kindling.community
BECOME A MEMBER OF THE ARTIST ALLIANCE:
www,artistalliancemembership.com
JEN TOUGH GALLERY:
www.JenTough.gallery
JEN TOUGH'S BLOG:
www.JenTough.com
Welcome to Tough on Art, the podcast for artists interested in ways to get ahead in today's art market. I'm Jen Tough owner of Jen Tough Gallery and the Artist Alliance community. Join me for some down to earth. Talk about the best ways for artists to navigate this new and different landscape. Hi everybody. Welcome to Tough on Art, This is, Jen, and today I'm super excited to have Dee Tivenan back with me again, and Hi Dee, how are you?
Dee Tivenan:Hi Jen, it's good to be here. Thank you.
Jen Tough:Where are you right now?
Dee Tivenan:Well, right now I'm at Katie Korotzer's house because I don't trust my computer skills to get this right. So good old Katie, we need friends.
Jen Tough:Katies' One of your artists, friends.
Dee Tivenan:We're here in Orinda, California. Yeah.
Jen Tough:And how how's the weather there right now? It's February, 2022.
Dee Tivenan:Yes. It just got a little chilly, but that's okay. And we're hoping for.
Jen Tough:Nice. So we were just talking. Yeah, no, he, no February, but everything's blooming west coast stuff starts coming up so early, so nice. So we were just talking about before we started recording that we were kind of in recovery from Trump and everybody is sort of, I don't know. What do you think? You're the therapist?
Dee Tivenan:I think we are traumatized to various degrees. I think we have everything that's been going on in our own lives personally. And then the Trump years you know, shocked me. I didn't know that we could lose democracy. I didn't know the extent of racism really. I knew it was there. I didn't know the extent of antisemitism and then the adjustment of COVID. It doesn't appear to be over. I heard that this one, there's another strand. So we're, we're reorganizing our lives in a way, and our children's lives and our grandchildren's lives in a way that we've never known. So we, we have a big loss of control. We don't know what the next thing is. Even though we never have control. Sometimes we feel like we have more than we do now. We've lost social interaction to a certain degree and that loss, we're seeing a lot more anxiety, a lot more depression. It's really hard to get into therapists these days. Everybody's overbooked. I'm seeing a lot of suicides, even though the research is not in my clientele. I got, but even though the research is saying that suicides are up, maybe they're more public. I don't know, but people are strained and there's a lot of semantic things that are coming with that. Like headaches, not sleeping. Et cetera. So boy, is it a time to take care of ourselves and take care of each other and be aware of this? Is a hard time.
Jen Tough:Yeah. Yeah. There's a little, I mean, it's kind of like the whole country sort of, or the whole world even has a little bit of PTSD, you know, I don't mean to make light of that at all.
Dee Tivenan:No, you're not. I think we do. And I think there's a lot starting to be written about that. For healthcare workers, you know, for therapists, but we really don't know longitudinally what it's gonna look like for the kids that have been wearing masks or the kids have been home from school or the millennials that were just getting launched and now are back home or can't get jobs or can't buy houses. So longitudinally, we don't really know. And. I think there's a fear of the next election. So people have to be aware of that. We're much more hypervigilant, you know, like we get anxious work quickly, we startled more quickly. We're more reactive. And so that's where the mindfulness comes in in this moment. I'm safe. Oh, now I'm in the next moment. I'm still safe versus thinking ahead, like what if, what if, you know, but our minds go there and so bring ourselves back to the moment and, you know, make sure we exercise and I'm not talking about anything but health and help with anxiety and depression and, you know, pay, pay attention to ourselves. And we're cranking. I I've never sworn so much in my head as I do that
Jen Tough:really. I swear aloud all the time.
Dee Tivenan:I know you're good at it. You know, I sailor mouth. I know that. And your parents weren't even sailors. I don't know. I'm always worried in my head. It's always coming out, but I'm surprised what's going on in there, but yes, it it's it's a really unsettling time for all.
Jen Tough:Yeah, which kind of is a good segue or not a good segue into talking about what we're going to talk about, which is putting yourself out there on social media. And, you know, that's a huge thing, you know, so you have all this stuff in the background, you know, this sort of anxiety, this like post-Trump, you know, PTSD COVID stuff. And then on top of it, you know, artists have to need to you know, market themselves. And one of the best ways to market themselves is, you know, is to put their face on Instagram, put their, put their selves on Facebook, you know, whatever that might be, but putting yourselves out, putting yourself out there a little bit more. And that's so hard,
Dee Tivenan:you know, when I started painting like 12 years ago, it, first of all, I never thought I'd be. Selling or anything else, but I had no idea of the business, part of this. I was still kind of completely shocked and yes, that is a big part. This marketing that I'm realizing. And the thing is, this is a whole socio-cultural thing. That's happened with women and men over the years. Now it's more men than it used to be, but that's been self-conscious, that's been body shamed us feeling not good about ourselves. Let's looking at magazines and feeling like, even though we know they're Photoshop, we don't look good enough or whatever. So it's a whole nother step in terms of being aware of that exists. I don't know any woman that unfortunately, that can say I just love every part of my body. We're trying to get there, but I don't know anyone. Eating disorders away up body dysmorphic disorder is way up and body dysmorphic disorder is when we don't see our bodies accurately. For example, anorexic person would see themselves being overweight. And now, you know, in the last number of years, we've seen men have more anorexia and body dysmorphic disorder because they're into fashion where they're on magazines, more, their looks matter more. So now here we are just kind of normal people putting ourselves out on Instagram, Facebook, and I was kind of the last person in the universe to have a cell phone. And so then as it was Jennifer Perlmutter and her galleries and Lafayette, and is a friend of mine and she said, you need to go on Instagram. I go no, no. And then she grabbed my phone, took a picture, put it on Instagram. And she said, get over it just like that. And then went on her busy way. Right? She kind of forced me into it. And it's not as easy as just getting over it, but it's not a bad way of looking at it in terms of what's the worst thing that can happen and get over it. Don't focus so much on yourself because in reality, most people aren't looking at ourselves the way we look at ourselves. Yeah. And that's important to remember. I just had an interesting thing because I was kind of lucky an Orinda living magazine came out and I'm going to be on the cover of it in March and a story and same thing. I'm going like, oh my God cover. And I looked at all the pictures they were maybe taking in about man, how did I get to be 71? How did this all happen? But using the same tools of one, a positive thing, I'm lucky that they're doing it. That's a nice thing too. You know, what's the worst thing that could happen. Three. This is the worst thing that happen is really nothing. Unless I don't stop myself, talk for this might be good for art and I'm growing and experience, but whether it's you know, photos on Instagram or on our website or speaking, it's all the same thing in terms of embracing ourselves using positive self-talk and the self-talk is like, we're always have a dialogue inside of our heads and we can really run ourselves in the ground with it, like, oh man, I'm going to be terrible on this podcast. And Jen's never going to ask me again because I always get the time wrong. But by the way, everyone, I did get the time wrong. But or I can say it's fun to banter with Jen. This isn't a rehearsed thing, and this is a good experience. I can turn it around and kind of make the, you know, it is what it is. It's another moment in my life. So in all these situations, we really have to be aware of our self-talk our perspective, what expectations are we setting for ourselves? My expectation isn't that I'm going to be perfect on this podcast. I don't even know what perfect means. I don't even think it exists, but if I set that expectation up, or if I set an expectation, I have to sell this many paintings or I have to paint like Gogan this year, you know, I'm setting myself up to fail versus again, coming back to the moment I am, where I am, and this is a good place to be. So I, I, I just want to tell you this study, that.
Jen Tough:You're getting out the papers. I hear the paper.
Dee Tivenan:I won't do that.
Jen Tough:You have something written down, which is more than I've got. I'm just,
Dee Tivenan:I can't find it on all these sheets, but anyway, but the study was, it was like in 2002 that women, and this is so tragic would rather like have a leg amputated or whatever. Then the fat shamed,
Jen Tough:majority who rather have Jesus. Really.
Dee Tivenan:I know that's why I wrote it down,
Jen Tough:but oh, that's so awful.
Dee Tivenan:You know, all these other things instead of being fat shamed. And so that says has how deep it is. Yes. And I worked with eating disorders for 40 years. Sorry that made a little noise. I'm drinking everyone water. And it, it is so deep. These girls look at magazines and say, I don't look like that. We look at older people. I just saw that Courtney Cox said, I don't look good with these fillers, which I'm happy that she realized that because she look like those lip fillers. I hate that. I didn't see the lip, but the cheeks, but it's not normal looking, you know?
Jen Tough:Yeah. There's like a weird look with people who get too much plastic surgery or like much like those lip injections, those things.
Dee Tivenan:Those are a little scary to me.
Jen Tough:Yeah. It doesn't, it's really awful looking,
Dee Tivenan:but it is about that. We are not okay. I'm not telling anyone that there isn't going to be some struggle. You know,
Jen Tough:struggle is real.
Dee Tivenan:Yeah, but what end did we come out in it for me? Do I let my hair go gray or not go gray? I'm thinking about that. How I've never been this age before, and that's probably fits for everyone else with their ages. And so how, how do I deal with this? How do you deal with getting older and respecting yourself, respecting your body? Yeah. And still having confidence. And what people say is that confidence just happens. It's not true. I've never seen a baby come out and say, it's not true. I'm feeling really good about my, yeah.
Jen Tough:You know, you remember like, COVID of course you remember COVID. But when my gallery closed and I needed to do this pivot and it needed to be online. And, you know, in order to sort of let people know what I was doing, I was doing all these free webinars. Oh my God. Holy shit. The first few I did, I was so nervous. I mean, I was real, but I forced myself to do it and I just, you know, I just kept doing it. And, and it's true what they say, like the more you do that kind of thing, the easier it gets. And now, now I'm not nervous at all. Now I enjoy it. Like it's because it's simple and I can connect with people. And but I was really, really nervous
Dee Tivenan:at you're raising a really good point and that's called exposure. The more we do something, the easier it is. Like if you're afraid to drive across the bridge, you go in little baby steps, go to the bridge, do some deep breathing, go home, then go to the bridge and you go a little bit farther and go home. And so it's the same way as our selfies or our marketing on Instagram or Facebook or whatever the first time, you know, Jen Perlmutter just hijack me God. And now it's like, okay, I put it on. You know, I don't really spend that much time looking at myself. And this is part of what it is. And the self-talk is no one really cares. I look at people all the time and it's just nice to get to know them. I'm not really judging them. So it's exposure and confidence. Confidence is like a muscle. Like I said, the baby comes out and is, oh, I'd feel so good about my new belly button or something. I know kids are born with different temperaments, but confidence is like a muscle that we have to practice. You have to practice it with that. Self-talk I did that pretty well. You know, another tool is writing in journal, a journal or writing down all the things we did well today. Overdo it on being the self, being self critical on anything like on everything. I didn't get enough done or I burnt my toast or whatever, but we don't focus enough on what we do do well. And that does erode our competence. So being positive self-talk about ourself and I'm not Pollyanna. I'm not saying like, you know that I cleaned the house perfectly, but I did get the laundry done. And that's a good thing, you know? So we want to focus on the positive. I think everybody that's listening. If they asked ourselves when the last time was, they appreciated themselves, I think it might be awhile. We want to say it out loud. It's interesting. When we say
Jen Tough:difference, instead of
Dee Tivenan:waiting for it, you can write it, but it's very impactful. If you say, like, I felt good about that painting versus just thinking about it. It's a little bit more impactful. Even if you're in bad mood, if you smile, you start to feel better. You know? So we want to say it out loud. We want to recognize it. I'm exercising my confidence today. And that's important because I want to be happier. I want to feel better about myself. I'm sick of putting myself down and, you know, and with these whole selfie things in the marketing, I I'm, everybody's at a different degree with this. Everybody's in a different place, you know, I'm okay where I am. And I left Lauren A. Crane statement. She's an artist in Australia by Bartis and her, her line is perfectly imperfect. And I use that and I think about it all the time. And that's really what we are. And do you want to say something I'm just chatting away here? I've had my coffee.
Jen Tough:Well, you know, I think that it's really easy to just sort of, for artists to just ignore the idea of putting themselves out there on, you know, let's just use Instagram, for example, you know, not even just a live, but like a picture of yourself next to your painting or whatever. It's like when we, you know, it's difficult, it's easier to just say I'm not going to do, I'm just not going to do that. I'm just going to post pictures of my work. It's safer. You know, oh, I'm an artist. People should just pay attention to my work and not me, but there's been a shift. And I think part of it's COVID part of, it's just, you know, how powerful social media is now that their needs, people want that connection with the artist. I see this time and time again, you know, people rather buy from the artist directly. They rather know the artists, they want that connection. They want that artist's story. And the only way to do that is to put yourself out there on Instagram, go to art fairs and stand there and talk about your work. You know, when we did the Instagram challenge and the Artists Alliance last year, And I gave like a, it was a challenge. So I gave a whole bunch of different ideas and prompts for people like this one. You're just going to show your hands in the shot, the next shot you're going to, you know, have it's going to be you with a painting. You know, you don't have to show your body. You can hide behind your painting if you want, but show your face, you and that kind of thing. And the ones that were more personal, like people's pets, the artists inside their studio, stuff that gave context to that person, to the artist as a person, remember it did so well, people got the best response from it, you know, because I think when artists just post their work, there's this underlying understanding from the viewers that, oh, they just want me to buy their painting. It's just another thing to buy. It's just another that, you know, they want that connection with people. So it's really powerful to be able to show yourself.
Dee Tivenan:I think so, too connection is a basic need. Yeah. You know, a primal need and I can see you now. And you can see me, and this is better than just talking on the phone because we have more of a connection.
Jen Tough:Yeah.
Dee Tivenan:So that's why I agree with you. It is important, but do it in ways that you feel comfortable.
Jen Tough:Sure. Yeah.
Dee Tivenan:No, you don't have to where, like, you know, where, where what's comfortable, you don't have to worry about anybody else's wearing, be in a setting that's comfortable.
Jen Tough:We start with just showing your hands, right. Lego. You're saying like going to the bridge and just doing the deep breathing. If you're afraid to cross a bridge in your car, you know, like same thing, like just, just maybe in the beginning you show your hands working on a video or how you clean your brushes or, you know, really simple things. And then when you're ready, like just kind of work up to it. It's like, you know, it's like when people learn to swim and Jen Perlmutter just like basically threw you in the water. Just swim or you can take lessons and, you know, you start in the shallow area and then you go deeper and, you know, cause the theme of the uncomfortableness is, is it's real. It's so real. I mean, I don't put myself out there on Instagram. Like, you know, I I'm, I'm wanting to talk, I'm learning all this from you as well. You know, we can, we can learn this together. It's hard as women, as older women once you're like sort of God, I hate to say this, but you know, past your prime culturally, you know, not can't bear babies anymore, I guess is, is the is the thing then it becomes like a whole other world, right?
Dee Tivenan:Yeah. But part of, yes, I I I've told you this before. I'm just learning how to be older. I've never,
Jen Tough:now it's weird, isn't it?
Dee Tivenan:Yeah. And I'm a lot older than you, but. You know, there's support there. A lot of people my age, but the plus side honestly, is it is easier to let go of things like, okay. So I post my picture. Okay. Really big deal. Right. I said to myself, the big things are life and death. Everything else is an inconvenience, you know? So what do I have to lose really? And that's not a bad statement for when we're younger. Like, oh my God, this was a horrible picture or whatever. Well, it's gonna pass those. Aren't the things that are really important in our lives. And so again, reframing our expectations and you know, that this might not be great, you know, but I'm learning. So lowering our expectations and reframing what's important. I want to, I'm saying this for all of us. Good about myself. I don't have to feel great. Life has ups and downs.
Jen Tough:I feel decent right.
Dee Tivenan:And be able to retrieve that. I mean, when I look at the photos I took for that magazine, and this is my insecurity, I had Millie in my hands the whole darn time now she's oh, no, he's my dog pound dog. That I'm a little nutty over. But she was a security blanket, you know? And in some ways in thinking of that is so pathetic, but on the other hand really well, I mean, I couldn't have a picture without a dog in my hand, probably not, but, but on the other hand, and this was part of compassionate, rational thinking versus irrational. I could say it like immature enough just to have a photo shoot without your dog. And then my rational. So I said, well, apparently not let it go. So what, you know, if that made me feel more comfortable, just like do it in the clothes. You want the settings, whatever. And in the big picture, it doesn't matter. And I do think what you're talking about those connections. Why do people want to see your house or your studio? Because it feels a big picture and I understand you more and we feel closer. And especially right now in the last year, it's, everybody's a bit lonely.
Jen Tough:Yeah, totally. And I, I love personally, I was loving the news during COVID like when we were on lockdown, when you'd see like the journalists or the reporters house, you know, and I loved that. I love seeing how people decorated their house and what was, you know, in some of them were kind of like, there was one guy on PBS news hour. I can't remember his name, but he always had like all this booze sitting on his counter
Dee Tivenan:on our channel seven, I really want to talk to him about his paintings. They were so dull in the background, but oh God, I know it was more intimate.
Jen Tough:Yeah. Yeah. I loved it. I was like, so bummed when they started going back to the studio, I was like, oh, God really gave me the zoom with the shitty picture. And at least I get to see, you know, connect with other people. You know what they really are. You don't feel so lonely, you know, or isolated, I guess is a better word.
Dee Tivenan:And I think it's good. The momentum cause all of us, you know, a lot of us as artists are trying to push the envelope a little bit in marketing, which we're really not trained for. Right. So there's a big learning curve, but you know, we throw it out to our friends, like, I'll say to Katie, or, you know, Marjory or Valerie or whatever, like what do you think? And they'll say, well, I like this picture versus that picture, use that one. And I'll tell you extra, send out some of these pictures for the magazine. Everybody liked a different one by the way. So that just says you can't please everyone. Right. Do what you're comfortable with. And again, it's a small piece in the, you know, in the longitudinal piece of all of our lives and no one looks at. Anything have we look at it,
Jen Tough:right. And people are spending like 0.2 seconds or something on, you know, on anything. They're just doing a rapid scroll. They're not like picking apart how your hair like looked in this pit, you know, only we're doing that. No, one's paying attention to us. Really.
Dee Tivenan:That's really important. Half of us don't even have our reading glasses on when we're looking. So we're looking at porpuses or something. I don't know. Yeah. You're in the, you
Jen Tough:know, you're in the passenger seat or whatever, hopefully not driving, but you know, you're not, you're always doing something else. You're always multitasking. Usually when you're scrolling through instant. Yeah, which is something to think about. Yeah. You know, cause I get, I get a lot of comments from artists who say, well, I don't want to inundate people with pictures or, and it's like, you're not, there's, you know, there's billions of images that are going through it. You know, people are absorbing so much stuff now. They don't absorb it. Is that the whole thing?
Dee Tivenan:There's so much information we're taking less.
Jen Tough:So you're never going to eat. There's no way you could compete in a sense or overwhelm someone with tons of stuff. They're not, they're not paying that much attention.
Dee Tivenan:Yeah. Anything that's listening to this podcast write in and tell us where you might be stuck with this or where you're having a hard job or
Jen Tough:better yet go to Kindling, which is free. If you go to Kindling like kindling when making a fire, dot community, and you can post in there talking about this podcast, if you want. And it's totally free. You can go on there and talk with other artists about how it, you know, any uncomfort you might have with promoting your art or yourself, especially on Instagram. So let's, let's talk about one thing. One of the main reasons people are afraid and myself too is you know, putting pictures of yourself or videos of yourself. Is it, you know, you're afraid of the hate that might come, you're afraid of those nasty comments, you know, that's, that's, I think especially when you're putting yourself out into the wide world, as opposed to just your network of friends, like, you know, your friends, when you showed them the photos and they all had different ones, they like, but you know, if you're putting stuff on Instagram, it's, it's the whole entire world, and there are people out there who will say awful things.
Dee Tivenan:What kind of things have you heard that people have said?
Jen Tough:Well, people will be, you know, they'll critique your appearance. They'll, you know, tell you it's a dumb idea or this is stupid or whatever, you know what I mean? Like they'll build, they can really pick it apart, which I found actually, you know, as, as an advertiser, like for the gallery or for workshops that you might have coming up or something like. I mean, it's any kind of, there's a sales angle to it. People are hypersensitive to it, which I understand. But they, they sort of take Liberty in critiquing or criticizing you know, what you're doing and blah, blah, blah. And you've kind of opened yourself up for more of a world of
Dee Tivenan:I mean, are there some examples you can think because you're a big fish, I'm a, like a minnow.
Jen Tough:I wouldn't say that
Dee Tivenan:that's not a bad thing. You know, you're really marketing. Let me,
Jen Tough:let me, let me, I can't think of any specific examples, maybe that, because actually, you know, I, I, those things are, they're hurtful. They're really hurtful. And I think, no, no, no. It's, it's like Well, I remember when I was advertising for a show and there was a call for entry fee. I had one artist. I'm assuming they're an artist right in, there was on Facebook right in that, you know, artists shouldn't have to pay for anything you're fucking ripping artists off. You know, you get a lot, you, you get that. I think, but I think part of that was because it was a, you know, it was an ad, it was a promoted, you know, call for entries. And people feel, they, I think they feel like they have more license to criticize and be mean, you know, I mean, it's really unnecessary to do that.
Dee Tivenan:I think there are a couple of things with that. One is this my
Jen Tough:therapy session on my pocket?
Dee Tivenan:Yes. Lie down. I'm not speaking specifically. Do you, I, but because you're not the only one that's experienced this, so I'm not sure, you know, but I think, I mean, none of us have gone through life without being criticized, you know? And when I'm criticized, it never feels good. You know, I asked myself what fits, what doesn't fit. And that term is called introjection, you know, like if someone says to me Dee or this, this, and this, like you're silly stupid. And short or something. I don't know. I can't think of anything. Yeah. I might say, well, I'm probably not short cause I'm five eight, but I don't think I'm stupid, but I certainly am silly. You, you have, anybody can say anything to anyone and you have to decide what fits for yourself. It's like going to a buffet and eating everything, whether you like it or not, you go to a buffet and decide what you want to eat. Otherwise it doesn't feel good. The other part is there are, will always be a percentage of the population that are angry and feel badly about themselves and deal with that by hurting others. Always, I, I wasn't aware how big it was till the last five, six years I'm even shocked, but there always as that population. And so we need to. Develop a little armor around that. And especially when it comes on Facebook and Instagram for God's sakes, it's not personal, you know, people aren't saying it to your face, people that are mad or angry can say it to you without any consequences, because you have no idea who they are. It lacks authenticity anyway. Cause he can't even dialogue with them really and explained. So when that, when that happens, we have to put it in a separate category because most of the things that we say really aren't that controversial. And if there's a fee for something, well then someone's mad at you about well where isn't there a fee. You know, if I go to Macy's, am I mad because I have to buy something, you know, businesses are businesses. So. I just try to delete that stuff. Does this fit, do they have a good point? If they're angry, I really don't want anything to do with them, but it's not a relationship for me. So just deleted. And again, I'm not people from an anonymous place. Feel like they are more powerful, but it's kind of sad because these are people that probably don't have connections are angry, lost, or whatever. So just put it in that connection, but we do need to have some armor and some resilience. Cause when we put ourselves out there, it will happen. So again, just, you know, is this something I can learn from? Or I'm just going to let it go because it doesn't have to do with me and you know, our brain, we get stirred up or anxiety, whatever. So then I'm not saying that if that happens to me, I don't have any feelings about. So then how do I de-stress myself? One is a self-talk one is just taking a walk. I can't I'm so surprised I get like the hugest serotonin boost, you know, just get outside, get outside, see a tree, run it by someone else, you know? Yeah. And, you know, use a visualization. Sometimes I visualize like what someone said to me that hurts or bothering me, like, I've got to drop it off a cliff, so I can't connect with it. You know, whatever visualization works for you in terms of letting go more, I'm going to bury it. Or, or if I mad, I'm going to just like stomp on it, you know, and actually visualization too is helpful in putting ourselves out. And a picture like I'm visually visualizing myself having a successful picture. I'm visualizing myself looking confident. So it works both ways, but you know, that kind of stuff who needs it and none of us deserve it. It doesn't matter, you know, whatever we do, we don't deserve to be treated poorly. Right. You know, someone could say, Jen, I'm kind of concerned about your price. Can you tell me the reasoning?
Jen Tough:Oh yeah. Let's totally different.
Dee Tivenan:None of us deserve to be treated poorly. So, yeah.
Jen Tough:Do you remember Bernay Brown's cause we both love Bernay brown. She was talking about when she first, the first time she was sort of exposed, you know, to the world, was that Ted talk? She did. And. They they told her at first, oh no, one's going to see it. You know, it was her first talk on vulnerability. And then do you remember her retelling what happened as soon as she realized that like hundreds of thousands of people had watched this on YouTube and she said, then the comments started coming. There was just awful, you know, like lose 20 pounds, blah, blah, blah. You know, just these whore, you know, really awful, you know,
Dee Tivenan:very critical.
Jen Tough:Yeah. And, and then, but then she, you know, she's also talked about, you know, when there's people who are in the ring, you know, in the, in the, you know, in the fighting ring or what, what, what was the term she used when you're like in the Coliseum or whatever. That's what I was envisioning maybe when she's talking about being brave. And then there's the people who are like in the stands or whatever, just sort of throwing things at you, but living bravely is about Yeah. Yeah. And there's, there's something to that. Like the bravery and vulnerability. It's it's,
Dee Tivenan:I mean, we're all vulnerable. That's what we have the way intimacy is connecting to your vulnerability. Like if, you know, like you just told me how you were harassed a little bit and felt badly. I was, I was vulnerable when I said, you know, I was insecure about the pictures and held Millie the whole time, you know, so, but that lets us be closer and we're when we're closer, we support each other. It's, you know, it's a relationship now, the people in the stands you know, those, those are people that, you know, kind of make a profession out of being critical, you know, like she has those 20 pounds. What does that have to do with their head talk? Right. Got her head talk. Her Ted talk. Oh, that's unique.
Jen Tough:That's 20 pounds.
Dee Tivenan:That has something to do with in there. These people that just want to be critical. And there's some, one of us that is isn't triggered by that. Yeah. But it's what we do with it and compartmentalize it. Remember those are people though. They don't even know us. You know, she just had an interesting thing with the Spotify stuff and she went off and, and got back on it. And if you guys want to listen to her new things, she got a lot of criticism either way, but how she made her decision. And, but the point is, you know, you can't put yourself out there without having some risks, but what's the alternative. The alternative is I'm going to, you know, live all by myself with my dog and Netflix, you know,
Jen Tough:which sometimes sounds nice.
Dee Tivenan:Yes. But not 24, 7 for 70 years. Yeah. Putting ourselves out there and taking risks also builds confidence, build confidence just in our head. We can visualize it. We can think it, we can plan it, but it has to be the experience. Like, how do I want to get better at running? It's just not thinking I have to practice. So for everyone that's listening. If you've put yourself out there, feel good about yourself.
Jen Tough:Heck yeah,
Dee Tivenan:it's a risk. And the first time I was in a painting show oh my God. You know, and all these baby steps of risks, but it's good. It makes us feel alive. It makes us feel proud. And it's a stepping stone to doing more. So I'm encouraging, you know, you, everyone take those risks. You know, the selfie thing, this is been socio-cultural for centuries. Judging women. Yeah. Everything, bodies, hair, whatever. This is centuries old. We, we, I mean, I, I'm not going to change the world. I know that, but remember, there's no basis to it except judgment.
Jen Tough:So, and we live in a very patriarchal society.
Dee Tivenan:So, you know, we talk about expectations, but think about judgment. There's always ex extrinsic judgment, external judgment, but another tool is be aware of how much you're judging yourself and do something different with that. You know, every time we go, Ooh, that's a horrible picture. We're judging ourselves versus it's. Okay. Yeah, it's okay. And I'm proud that I took the risk turn into something positive, but we are usually harder on ourselves than anyone else's but the good news is we can change that by how we think, how we think affects how we feel. If I think, you know, I'm being crummy at something, I'm going to feel crummy. If I think I'm doing okay with something I'm going to be okay. Yeah. So that's, self-talk, that's winding in our head all the time. Meditation of breathing can help that we can learn some tools to help that, but we want to visualize that stop sign when it goes down that negative road. And like, even with whatever people say to you, Jen, you know, because you do put yourself out there, you know, it's not true. It hurts. And then. Again, then you recover and, you know, we can't be authentic without a vulnerability.
Jen Tough:Yeah, it's true. And I wonder, I wonder too. I think some people, you know, have had a history of bullying or, you know, when they were growing up and they might have more work to do around, you know, being vulnerable you know, and putting yourself out there and the selfies or whatever. You know, cause that, that can be some people carry a bigger load.
Dee Tivenan:Yeah. There's a lot of us that had normal growing up periods, whatever that is. I have that in quotes but you know, everybody has their issues including me. But when we're talking about trauma, that's a different thing. You might want to get some support with it. If you, if you really feel like it's causing too much anxiety for yourself, You don't have to put, you don't have to do a picture. Another thing is if you want to work through it to a therapist yeah. Get some support with it
Jen Tough:and start with, you know, start with baby steps. I mean, I can't tell artists that they shouldn't market themselves. I don't want to say that because I know that, you know, it's really, I don't know. I don't think you're saying that. I just, you know, I don't, I D I don't want to tell artists like, oh, don't, you know, don't put yourself out there. I want artists to put themselves out there, but you can do it in little baby steps. Like, just show your hands or, you know, show your pet, or, you know, start introducing things about your personal world with, that's not as sort of, not as vulnerable and sort of slowly work up to it when you're ready, because
Dee Tivenan:yes, I showed my nightgown with all the paint on it. Yeah. I've discovered pictures from farther away. I'm a little bit more comfortable. I didn't
Jen Tough:a hundred feet. See me by the tree over there. Yeah.
Dee Tivenan:Or a thousand, you know, but seriously there are these baby steps of tools.
Jen Tough:Yep. Yeah. I think the key is, you know, to just let people in your world a little bit, you don't have to be, you know, like Kim Kardashians, you know, showing, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, there's, it's not one or the other, it's not like, you know, not showing yourself at all or being like, you know, one of those pretentious people with a selfie stick, it's, you know, it's just letting people in your, in your world a little bit, but also one little step at a time, you know?
Dee Tivenan:And so yes. Start with baby steps. What you're comfortable with, and this is you, and this is your life and make it work there isn't a right way for everyone. There really isn't no rules. Yeah. And there might be a time that we're more comfortable putting ourselves out there in a time that we're not. So just go with, you know, wherever you are. And I, I think we don't want to have one more thing to be critical of ourselves about, and that's, that's something to be really aware of
Jen Tough:being an artist, creating artwork and putting your art out there as vulnerable.
Dee Tivenan:The first time I did it, you know,
Jen Tough:it's, that's really, you know, I like, I am so amazed and so impressed, especially with women who. You know, might've been an artist early on or had an interest in it, put it aside because they had to stay home and raise the kids, or they were doing another job to bring, you know, to support the family or whatever it is, had to put it aside. And then they come back to it. That is so brave to me, that is amazing and brave. And, you know, and then showing that work and, you know, so just know that like, if you're at that place where you're kind of coming back to being an artist or you're, you know, reemerging as I call it and you're putting
Dee Tivenan:starting at 59, like I did.
Jen Tough:Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then putting, you know, you're, you're following your passion finally, which, which in that like right there alone is so vulnerable to do that. You're putting yourself in a role vulnerable blah position, but, but then it's so brave to, I mean, I'm amazed at I'm S I love, I love when I see women doing that, I love that coming back to their passion.
Dee Tivenan:And this isn't your therapy, obviously, but even you taking risks starting this whole AA thing and the kindling
Jen Tough:We can have my therapy. Maybe we just have my therapy as a new podcast. No one would care. It would be like the lowest
Dee Tivenan:they would. They think we were like goofballs, which we actually are. You know, if it comes back to, you know, we're talking about all these things, we're talking about vulnerability, we're talking about taking risks. We're talking about pushing ourselves. We're talking about trying to get from A to B with all the resistance is resistance is a word with all the resistance.
Jen Tough:So it's a massive hill to climb.
Dee Tivenan:Yeah. Thank you very much. Whether it's art, family money, whatever. So how do we deal with that? Whether it's an art or life or whatever. Yeah, we're talking about art, but, but it's, it's our lives. So do I want to feel better about ourselves? We have to be aware of that and we have to you know, support us. We're we're good about supporting our kids or say that's a nice picture.
Jen Tough:That'd be a whole other podcast. How women ignore their own needs.
Dee Tivenan:It's like the oxygen mask on the plane. Yeah, no. And so we have to look at what we've accomplished. Have to look at how resilient we've been, which is true. We want to look at B how courageous we are every time. You put yourself out there or take a risk or try something new, like try to draw in class. And you always say you can't draw, which is not you, but it's irrational. That's what we say, oh, I can't do that. Or people that say I'm not creative, which isn't true. Every time we take that risk, be proud of ourselves. What kind of people do we want to be? We want to be kind. We want to be good. We want to be considered we're imperfect, but we want to grow. So look at this as growth. And if you're having trouble doing whatever, anything, look at that and break it down into little baby steps and maybe get some help and say, you know, if this is important to me, I want to do this in a small, safe way because you know, I mean, I don't, I I'm not, I don't want to get into anything religious obviously, but all I know is right now, you know, and this is, this is the time right now, you know, and what you bring up is the women and socio-cultural things too. And we're making a statement for everyone, but also our daughters
Jen Tough:know, wow, this is a big issue in our house right now because my daughter is 16. So you remember that
Dee Tivenan:they don't miss a thing. And if she sees you taking a risk, even though she, you know, I mean, she might, or she might, I don't know, but I I'm surprised how they don't miss a thing. I mean, that's why we tell parents, don't say it don't say anything about your kids' weight. Don't say anything about their eating, you know unless they want come to you, let's stay out of all that stuff. Let you know, don't make them feel like they're being watched.
Jen Tough:Yeah. But as women, you know, as women like putting ourselves out there, there's a whole other gigantic bag. It isn't just like baggage. It's a, it's a fucking, you know, carload full of crap that, you know, that we, because for our whole entire lives, I mean, I think especially women over 40, you know, there was a particular way that you were supposed to look, there was a particular way that you were supposed to act. There was, you know, a lot of tongue biting, you know, like don't say that don't act this way. You know, a lot of ignoring and meetings at work. You know, it, it, you know, so there's a whole other sort of level to this of not sure how to sort of navigate this, this new social media world and, you know, because we were judged for most of our lives on these very superficial.
Dee Tivenan:And I think that's. Yeah,
Jen Tough:I think, I do think it was worse though, you know, for people who are women who are over 40, I think, I think it's a little better now. Like, especially after me too. And you know what I mean? It's, it, it feels maybe I'm totally wrong, but it feels a little better than it was. You know, it's even talked about more, like, I remember when the whole me too thing started like, oh my God, people are talking about this? You know, like I remember meeting I went to visit some of my girlfriends from high school and North Carolina Marie and Toby, my dearest darling friends. I love them so much. And you know, we were talking about the whole me too thing and the Kavanaugh hearings and all that. And one of my friends said well, it was just another Saturday night. Like you're just, you know, like getting groped or whatever, you know what I mean? Like you
Dee Tivenan:just have a Lear about it. Cause it happened so much.
Jen Tough:It just was like, you know and you know, her comment kind of took me back a little bit, but she's right. You know, it's like, we didn't talk about that stuff. It's just was what was expected. So I think when women of our generation, your generation, you know, et cetera, are dealing with these, you know, exposing themselves, which is the way it kind of feels it's, it's, you know, putting yourself out there like that, you, you, you sort of carry that past, you know information experiences, you know, or color, all of that, even more, you know, like how you should behave, what you should do, what you should say, what you can say that kind of thing, how I'm going to be judged for what I'm wearing. You know, like I remember when I was the art director at Warner brothers records and it was a big job and fancy job and you know, but like the, the male designers or whatever who worked there, they didn't have to worry so much about their clothes. Right. Like, there was always like and, you know, since I was blonde and blue eyed and younger for having that position, there was always that sort of, there was just like,
Dee Tivenan:yeah, I really feel from my mother's generation. Oh my God. And my grandmother's, I mean, yes, holy shit. I, you know, obviously I can't speak for everyone, but my mom was the perfect housewife and had dinner on the table and horderves from my father and volunteered. He didn't want her to work, you know, just really in this box. And you know, it's funny since, and this can go both ways since mostly I've been in private practice and I never felt that too much. It may have been judged or whatever. That's great. Being a female. I mean, I was judged on other things, but but on the other hand, when you do things outside of the box, you can be judged too. You know what I mean? But I I'm pretty lucky or else I completely repressed it, but I think that's, in some ways why I went into private practice because I really felt for my mother and, and they got divorced when she was 56 and she had to go back to work and, you know, she was a Wellesley graduate who, you know, had horderves for my father, you know, I mean, but that was the culture. So I think I always pick something that I could kind of control and yeah, but I know it's there and you see it everywhere. So that's the other thing too. You know, it is vulnerable to take a stand to it. And the more you do that, you, you pick where you're going to take a stand. Like, you know what I, you know, I mean, I don't know your background that well, but like take you to stand at Warner brothers. Might've been too vulnerable for you, but taking a stand with an artist that wasn't being kind to you. Yeah.
Jen Tough:Well, you know, it's funny because I think with age comes obviously more wisdom and you know, if I was to have that job now, there's no effing way I'd put up with the bullshit. Right. Like it would be, you know, but when you're, you know, I think I was only like 30, so really young.
Dee Tivenan:Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm sorry, but
Jen Tough:I remember when my mom, I have one little story about my mother who was a real, she's a real feminist, she's still alive, but you know, she was involved with legal women voters and she, you know, was really, you know, involved with all these things. And I remember one time I was probably about five and we went into the local hardware store. We walked in there and my mom was, I don't know, let's say it was a hammer. I have no idea what she was asking for, but she couldn't find it. So she went to the counter. And of course it was all men and they laughed at her. They laughed at her. And I remember this moment being, so, you know, I remember it clearly, you know, Laughing at her because, you know, what would you tell your husband to come in here and get it? They told her and she flipped out
Dee Tivenan:Good for her.
Jen Tough:She flipped out. I mean, of course as a little girl, I was like, what's happening. You know, it wasn't really sure what was going on, but that's how bad it was. So this was probably like, I don't know, 19 73, 72, something like that. Wow. So imagine was like in the fifties, or
Dee Tivenan:as you could see the, the very descript roles for people, it's my parents, grandparents. And when we talk about trauma, the effect of the war on these generations, we had the Vietnam war, but we have the COVID war. And so, you know, that is having an effect on. Whether we want it to, oh yeah, that's enough. The orange nightmare. Get this stuff we're talking about where we're, you know, we're heading this podcast in terms of helping people feel better about themselves with the things that are uncomfortable with particularly selfies or putting your paintings out there or, and how to do it and come to terms with it and feel okay about it. But the bigger picture, all these tools are life tools, whether it's a selfie or you're standing up to your boss, I, you know, you're applying for a job or, or. Trying to bobsled for the first time I watched a little of the Olympics, but it's all the same, very little cold there for me, but it's all the same stuff. You're just holding this with selfies. It's all the same stuff in terms of, you know, what am I want to do right now with my life in this moment? And what's my plan and yes, will I be uncomfortable? Sure. While I lived through that. Sure. How can I break it down and baby steps. So I don't take too much at once. And how can I acknowledge myself and appreciate myself over and over again? Again, it's like a muscle, all this stuff over and over again. And when I get too stressed, what are my tools? I'm going to listen to a meditation tape. I might put on music and dance. I might take a walk. I might call a friend in vent I might, for me, I'm a, like really big on naps you know? So, so we're, we're embracing that, you know, like I said, a piece of cake, but everybody that's listening probably likes challenges. That's why they're listing everybody. That's an artist or anything else. We're, we're, we're driven to take on new challenges. So expect we're going to be vulnerable, expect that it's not gonna work out well. Every time expect that we love the results.
Jen Tough:You will. And you know, the other thing that I want to add to your list of things that you can do to make it a little easier, a little better is you know, find your community of artists. Cause I know in the Artists Alliance, we're so supportive of each other that has turned out to be such an amazingly supportive, yummy community. And you know, everyone is, you know, when someone is vulnerable, you've got like, you know, 15, 30, 40, 50, even more comments of people, they are supporting each other because everyone's kind of going through the same thing everyone's trying to, you know, make their career, you know, better advance their career, you know, or get feedback on a painting or, you know, we talk about everything and it's just, it's turned into such a supportive place.
Dee Tivenan:It's been a life saver for so many people.
Jen Tough:I think so too.
Dee Tivenan:Yeah. It, and it's authentic everybody. That's listening. Jen and I have talked about artists lions from the beginning. And I write a column head talk in there where we talk about some of the emotional issues or just goofy things. And the whole, the whole Alliance is about support and that's not easy to come by. And I think Jen has set a precedent, you know, really no politics in here, no putting each other down. And I feel like it's authentic. Not only is there support, but also people like I was having trouble with my paper. People gave me ideas that it, it's not just emotional support, it's technical support,
Jen Tough:it's all sorts of stuff.
Dee Tivenan:And what's cool about it is that there are people from all over the country. And I know so many more people. Than I ever met in my life that I really like. So yes, the tool of support is really important. I mean, for me, I actually say every week I'm quitting painting, you know, I'm not, that's my go-to frustration.
Jen Tough:Yeah. I'm running away. I'm quitting
Dee Tivenan:my fleet response, you know, which is kind of my, my thing. You know, that that's my vulnerable thing. But I know I'm not going to buy that gives me a little safety for a little bit. And then I go back to, well, you want to hear a funny story? It's kind of pathetic, but it's funny.
Jen Tough:I love pathetic funny
Dee Tivenan:because I was a kid. Divorced. And I'm not angry at my parents and I never knew if someone was leaving or whatever. I was kind of scared to get married. I knew I wanted to be with Kevin. That was no question. And I broke out in hives on our wedding day. Okay. So then whenever we have a tif I put on I'm from Chicago, but now we were in California, my down big down coat that went down to my ankles,
Jen Tough:like a sleeping bag.
Dee Tivenan:I'm leaving. Of course it's like 90 degrees. So we worked out you gotta imagine this. It was blue. It was really one of those big ones. So we worked out that. I mean, obviously I couldn't leave, obviously I didn't want to leave, but I could put on my down coat, say I'm leaving and go to the door and that out the door in the, in the first year of marriage, you can imagine, you know,
Jen Tough:so this is something that you guys set up.
Dee Tivenan:Okay. Yeah. I mean, it got to give Kevin some credit, cause he's probably. God, why did I marry her? Oh, that's the worst. But that, that was always my thing. This kind of to flee before it hurt or something. So we we'd have a little Tiff and go and buy. Now. It was kind of funny. I'm leaving, put on this down coat down to my ankles, 90 degrees and go to the door and then, but I can't go out the door. So you standing at the door and pretty soon you're thinking this is kind of silly, but we, so my point, which I kind of lost anyway. But my point is we have to have our ways of working things out where we really aren't hurting ourselves or her hurting anyone else. And I'm big on humor. I'm big on laughing at myself and laughing at whatever. I can, cause I think we are all pretty darn goofy and that's another thing to embrace like, oh man, I just spent 10 hours obsessing about this, you know, selfie or whatever, what a waste of my time for God's sakes. Yeah. Yeah. That is the goofiest thing, you know? So yeah, so you need your people, you need the support, you need your own tools knowing you, you know,
Jen Tough:all that stuff.
Dee Tivenan:I mean, when you get hurt or attacked or something with AA, what do you say first? I mean, cause you're resilient,
Jen Tough:Artist Alliance with AA with we call Artists Alliance AA for short, but it's not really,
Dee Tivenan:we're not drinking
Jen Tough:what you mean when someone like,
Dee Tivenan:Get upset that.
Jen Tough:What do I do personally? I try to put it in perspective. I try to understand that the person who is, you know, coming at me, if they come at me in a nasty way that they're, you know, they're probably, they're probably hurting. Right. They're probably, you know, and you've said lots of times that I'm kind of like mom in that group. Right. So kids just like, I don't have feelings. I think a lot of people think that, you know, like, oh, you know, so they just feel like they can just kind of throw stuff at me. And I don't know it is what it is. It's it's.
Dee Tivenan:So you try to understand that and that's mature and understand it's not all about you. Yeah. And that's another tool I know I'm throwing out tools intermittently more about,
Jen Tough:it's more about the other person. If the, depending on how they go at you, right? Like if they're hurting people, hurt people, right? Like there's something, some reason why they want to, you know,
Dee Tivenan:and so they're vulnerable and they're turning into anger and it's not about me. I don't like it. It's uncomfortable. Yeah. But it's not about me. If it is about me, then I have something to learn. But you know, it's not about me, but we're again, bringing this back to life. These are all the tools we use in life. You know, who hasn't been hurt, rejected,
Jen Tough:and you survive.
Dee Tivenan:We're surviving even though. I got the time wrong three times for this part, but I love what Jen said. She kept saying, no worries. No worries. I'm on, I'm on California time. She's in New Mexico time.
Jen Tough:Yeah. It's no big deal,
Dee Tivenan:but, but I like, and this is something you guys can integrate to. Jen says no worries. And I think that's another line to integrate also. Yeah. But again, if people have stuff with their stuff with it or feedback about this podcast, let us know. we like to chat.,
Jen Tough:which makes me think that we should wrap this up. Okay. But it was great because, you know, we started talking about Trump and how messed up things are. And we talk, we talked about so many things and I hope people got something out of this. I'm sure they did. And I really thank you for coming on and chatting with me. Oh. Because we could go on forever.
Dee Tivenan:I know. And we have, you should see some of our phone calls, but thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. And, and I love learning from you too.
Jen Tough:Well, I love my virtual therapy sessions.
Dee Tivenan:No charge. The thank you so much. Thanks, Jen
Jen Tough:Thank you so much for listening and supporting this podcast. Your support means everything. If you'd like to learn more about the Artists Alliance community. Send me a question or learn about other events or projects coming up, please visit my website at www.Jentough.gallery. See you next time.