Dealing with Rejection

Dealing with rejection after rejection for artists can be demoralizing and depressing and sometimes can even cause an artist to lose all hope and stop creating altogether. In this podcast, I'm going to break down this process and discuss ways to cope, feel stronger and weather rejection storms just a little bit better, and we'll touch on why certain outdated expectations for pathways into the art world are not only irrelevant, but can also cause a lot of grief for artists.

My guest today is Dee Tivenan. Dee is an artist and psychotherapist from the Bay Area of California. She established her therapy practice almost 40 years ago and at the onset of the pandemic she closed down her office and moved everything home, continuing to see patients via zoom.

Dee's venture into painting came about 15 years ago and she now has a beautiful art studio in the back of her home that her husband, Kevin built for her. These paintings are primarily abstract expressionist, non-representational works that are buttery and often filled with violets and fiery reds. She shows her work both locally and nationally and has made her pathway into the art world by primarily making connections... and this is something that we talk about in the podcast.

Dee is also one of the most supportive and involve members of the Artist Alliance, the online membership community that I started when my gallery closed down due to COVID. She runs a group on there called Head Talk, where members can discuss getting unstuck and all of the other things that artists are dealing with right now, including rejection.

I hope you enjoy this hour long casual conversation with Dee and I, and as usual, a small world word of caution that a few profanities are shared (of course by me!). Enjoy!

__________________

We've opened up enrollment into the Artist Alliance!
We have annual and 6 month membership subscriptions available. Membership includes juried exhibitions with no entry fees, earn 100% on sales, art challenges, resources, a growing video library, and also the complete BASIC Method, a self study 20 module course that breaks down the FIVE ESSENTIAL areas artists need to focus on to achieve their goals. 

Join today at ArtistAllianceMembership.com

__________________

Would you like to ask a question for Artist Q&A for this podcast? Go to the gallery website to get the form: www.JenTough.gallery

__________________

Thank you for listening! If you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe or leave us a review!

Transcript

Jen Tough: 0:00

Welcome to tough on art, the podcast for artists interested in ways to get ahead in today's art market. I'm Jen Tough owner of Jen Tough gallery and the Artist Alliance Community. Join me for some down to earth. Talk about the best ways for artists to navigate this new and different landscape. Dealing with rejection after rejection for artists can be demoralizing and depressing and sometimes can even cause an artist to lose all hope and stop creating altogether. In this podcast, I'm going to break down this process and discuss ways to cope, feel stronger and weather rejection storms just a little bit better, and we'll touch on why certain outdated expectations for pathways into the art world are not only irrelevant, but can also cause a lot of grief for artists. If they're not met. So I could think of no better person to be on this podcast about dealing with rejection as an artist than Dee Tivenan,Dee is an artist and psychotherapist from the Bay Area of California. She established her therapy practice almost 40 years ago and not the onset of the pandemic. She closed down her office and moved everything home, continuing to see patients via zoom. Dee's venture into painting came about 20 years ago and she now has a beautiful art studio in the back of her home that her husband, Kevin built for her. These paintings are primarily abstract expressionists non-representational works that are buttery and often filled with violets and fiery reds. She shows her work both locally and nationally and has made her pathway into the art world by primarily making connections. And this is something that we talk about in the podcast. Dee is also one of the most supportive and involve members of the Artist Alliance, the online membership community that I started when my gallery closed down due to COVID. She runs a group on there called Headtalk where members can discuss getting unstuck and all of the other things that artists are dealing with right now, including rejection. I hope you enjoy this hour long casual conversation with Dee and I, and as usual, a small world word of caution that a few profanities are shared of course by me. I hope you enjoyed the podcast anyway, Hi Dee!.

Dee Tivenan: 2:07

Hi Jen, It's nice to see you.

Jen Tough: 2:11

It's nice to see you too. Well, we, I wanted to invite you on, because before we did a webinar together where we talked about a lot about vulnerability, like you just mentioned, and When it comes to juried shows. And so I talked a lot about as a frequent juror, what that's like from my perspective. And I wanted to bring you on to let's further elaborate on the idea of rejection as an artist and what an artist goes through with it and how they can, how they can cope with it, because it definitely, you know, it can freeze careers. It can keep people from moving forward.

Dee Tivenan: 2:48

Well, first of all, I'd like to say I don't like rejections myself, you know, I don't get one and say, thank you very much. I'm feeling so good. That's a pretty universal feeling. And we always get rejections. We've gotten rejections our whole life. Like, did we not get picked in gym class? Did you know, did that girlfriend or boyfriend not want to be with us? I mean so the reality is we have survived rejections for a long time. Now, the difference is if we. When we feel rejected. If we make it a character assassination about ourselves, then we're going to get depressed and feel worse and get stuck. Or if we look at rejection in the big picture that it it's, it is part of happiness. It's part of loss. It's part of, you know, taking risks with things. But you know, when one is rejected and I can speak about myself, my first thing is like, ouch. You know, feel that little throughs and people can feel angry, you know, I should have, or look at the people that got in there. Why did that person, not me feel heard. You know, be critical of themselves. Like, God, I never keep getting or whatever. Okay. So we have the feelings that parts good. We want to feel if we repress our feelings are going to come out in another way, come out in a headache, stomach, ache, whatever. So I get a rejection. Okay. I have these feelings. I feel kind of crummy and disappointed. Okay. If what happens to people a lot, that's really self-destructive destructive. If then they take that and make it about their character and their personhood. Okay. I didn't get to in this show, that means I'm not a good artist. I'm not a good mother. I raked the leaves poorly. You know, we can throw any darn thing in to make ourselves feel bad about ourselves. So then the feelings and become irrational thinking of that's not healthy, irrational, negative, thinking about ourselves, we all have the self-talk where we're talking to ourselves all day. I know I should get up or I want to go to sleep or put the dishes in the dishwasher a better way, or I forgot to call someone. So we all have this self-talk. So the first red flag awareness, it's not healthy about rejection is okay. I am not good. I shouldn't be doing this. No one likes my work, et cetera. So the tools for that is within our self-talk realize that that's negative. Self-talk irrational self-talk. And if I do it with art and if anyone else does it art we know they're doing it in other areas, I shouldn't have lost my temper with, you know, my child. I should be perfect. I should, should, should, it's the rational thought. So the way to deal with that is come back to our self-talk and say, well, you know, this has nothing to do with my character. Rejection is part of life. Do I like it? No, but it doesn't mean I'm not a good artist. It doesn't mean I'm not good at everything. It doesn't mean that, you know, I'm a bad person. What it means is I didn't get in and I don't know why. And there are a lot of reasons why, and Jen states, which is so good with all the reasons why, and then Jenny may want to add, you know, maybe I didn't get in because there were thousand entries in 50 spaces. Maybe I didn't get in because my pictures were blurry, you know, especially pre cataracts, you know, that that could have been in, you know, you know, maybe I didn't get in because it was the wrong fit for me. My opinion really didn't fit for that show. And I didn't know it. I don't know other things you want to add about why people don't get into shows.

Jen Tough: 6:42

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Most of the shows that I've juried there's around, I'd say 10 to 25% that get in out of all the entries. That's the first thing. Usually it's around 10% of all the entries. And when you're creating a show, when you're during a show you want to create, I think I'd mentioned to this to you before the, you want to create a whole symphony. You don't want, you want all the art to be different, but also adhere to the theme. So, you know, you don't want to build a symphony with all violence, for instance, or just like you don't want to build a show that has all abstract expressionist paintings and abstract expressionist paintings, by the way, are the number one paintings that I see when I'm jurying so it makes your competition much stiffer. The other thing that's really important is, you know, when you're creating a show, you, you, you, you also, you know, you are creating the show through jury. You're creating the whole look of the whole entire exhibition and. So that's one thing that artists really have to keep in mind because you're playing one small part in a big symphony. Let's say you're one instrument out of a whole symphony and you really don't know what the juror is trying to create. You know, you really don't know the kind of show or exhibition that they want to create an entirety. So that's something to keep in mind that will prevent artists from, from, you know, saying to themselves, Oh, my work sucks. Or, you know, I shouldn't be an artist, you know, going down that path that you were just talking about. And the other thing that's super important is you're usually only seeing two or three pieces of that artist, entire body of work. And, you know, maybe the artist just made not a good decision as far as which piece to send to submit, because, because it's not, it just doesn't meet with what the juror's trying to create as far as the whole entire show. And you know, one of the things that I've noticed is that. The most important thing with artists. When, when I'm looking at artists' work, I have to look at a ton of their work one or two or three pieces, never speaks to an artist entire body of work. So when an artist gets rejected from a show and they say to themselves, you know, Oh, I suck. I'm never doing this again. And they, you know, they go down that really bad path and, and worse, not ever entering into another show, they need to keep in mind that, you know, the it's not about how, you know, how good they are as an artist or then themselves it's, you know, the person is looking at one or two or three pieces and how that works in that particular show and creating that symphony. So it's really important for artists to keep that in mind. And, and the most important thing for an artist to do is to. Keep going and be persistent because the worst thing, you know, the absolute worst thing that can happen is you take one rejection or two or three or a hundred even, and say, I'm a terrible artist. I'm not, you know, I'm not doing this anymore. You have to be persistent. You have to be, there's so many creative people who've been rejected for what they've created in the beginning. But the key is to, you know, to keep going. I mean, look at JK Rowling, you know, how many times did it take before somebody published Harry Potter? Right.

Dee Tivenan: 9:59

And I think what helps to keep us going is our community because coming back to getting an ID and people and connection, because you know, my, my group of friends, we call each other. Did you get rejected? You know? Oh, me too. Okay. Or, and, or we're happy if someone got in, but taking that negative self-talk, I'm never going to paint again. Or I'm the worst. I suck, whatever, what. I try to teach people to do is reframe that to a more rational, positive self-talk. So I can say, you know, I didn't get in and I'm never going to paint again. And I'm discouraged in my rational self topic in the one of the same to myself. And this actually helps to say it out loud is, well, I don't remember what Jen said. You know, there are a lot of reasons that I didn't get in and to keep painting now this negative side, the self-talk in so many of us takes over and again, that leads to withdrawal, depression, whatever. It's like a really strong muscle and it's darn annoying. So the images to build our rational, our positive, self-talk not, not something that's not true, but rational, positive self-talk and visualize it. We're lifting weights with it. We're getting stronger and we're setting a boundary with a negative self-talk. So I like to visualize a stop sign, like make it like 10 feet tall. So in my negative sides start saying oh, Dee, you shouldn't or you suck, or, Oh my God, why'd you do that again? I visualize a stop sign and reframe it. And one thing I say to myself, that's a big thing. So life and death, you know, this is rejection in an art show, get a grip. And I add all the other things that you say, you know, maybe my photo was bad or whatever. And with all, even a painting when I'm working on it, I'll use that model because my, my negative self-talk is present. You know, everybody has that insecurity. The question is, do I want it to ruin my life or not? And I don't. So don't expect not to have it, but retrain yourself to pair it with a logical sign in the, with the logical side. And the thing about the South side, it's just a visual stop. This nonsense. This is goofy. Come back to the rational side. And again, it's universal for everything in our life. And I've always told Jen, I love the image of the symphony. I love that. And you know, people that are artists like myself, don't understand how to put a show together. And if you really that's a whole different skillset, and if you really understood that, and then you would have more empathy for yourself and the juror and more understanding of why you didn't get in possibly.

Jen Tough: 12:59

Yeah. And you, you mentioned photography as well, and that's a, that's a huge thing. I mean, I can't even tell you how many times I'm like, Oh, that piece looks really interesting, but it's photograph so poorly. I can't even tell what's going on. And. If you can't and here, here, here's what it's like from a juror's point of view, if something's sort of blurry or dark or something like that. And you're just not sure. You're like, Oh, this looks really interesting. It could be a really good painting, but you really don't know it's too much of a crap shoot because you could get that painting that comes in. And this has happened to me at the gallery. Actually, and then when I, when I see the piece in person, I'm like, Oh God, you know, this is so that's why it's so important to get really, really good bright, crisp photographs. So there's no guesswork on the juror's part because of the, if the juror has to guess about what's going on, they're not going to put the piece in. And that has absolutely nothing to do with how good it is. You know, they just can't guarantee if there's any question, they'll just pass it by.

Dee Tivenan: 14:01

So recognize and you know, not, I don't have a graphic design background, but these are all other skillsets that affect your entry into a show. You know, your JPEG, the DPI, photographs, not, yeah, most of us didn't, don't naturally know how to do that. And so you apply to a show and 11 years later you can see, Oh boy, that was a bad photograph. Now I get it. You know, the longer that you persist, the better skills that you get. But none of this, just none of this is just intuitive. There are learning tools and skills to do to get better, you know, and I guess I want to add this one thing about getting in shows. People put a lot of pressure on themselves about getting into galleries or being represented by a gallery. Now you're better to talk about this on your end, but on my end, It's like find a lot of ways to enter the art world. You are not just a gallerist or a gal or in a gallery. You are an artists put yourself out in lots of different ways. And it's surprising. It's been really surprising to me what has worked and what hasn't worked in it. And I'm a little bit shocked by it, my trajectory, but I just kind of threw it out there thinking, you know, really what do I have to lose because, and I guess we can have the demarcation between someone that's trying to support themselves as an artist and someone like me that is taking a loss as an artist, but I never tried to support myself. I knew that would cause anxiety for me and wouldn't work for me. And it would take away the joy of painting for me. But. Put yourself out there, try these different things. You know, most of us really don't know the, art business, like you, you know, the art business and those risks. I don't know what to say to that.

Jen Tough: 16:13

That's such a great point. I love what you said that there's different ways to get into the art world. There's and there are, and I think after COVID with so many galleries, you know, still continuing to shut down some, some that have been around for 40 years, like Metro Pictures that just closed in New York. I mean, it it's really, it's going to keep going because I, I, you know, having a brick and mortar gallery I think is, is, is not, unless you've been in business a really long time, it's not the best business model. You know, artists are going to have more and more control over their career, which is great. You do have to learn a few more skills, but, you know, but overall it's a wonderful opportunity in a lot of ways, like, you know, people are going to be able to do art fairs. Artists are gonna be able to do art fairs. There's not going to be this sort of stigma or you're not a good artist if you're not, if you're at an art fair on your own and not, you know, with a gallery, which is, which is silly, that's been, that's silly. And I'll tell everybody why that's silly because people rather buy from the artists and from a gallery when you're doing an art chair, absolutely positively. And, and this whole idea About getting into a gallery and that sort of gives you this, you know, not trying your belt or a step up or something to who like who, who does that matter to nobody like regular people don't understand the difference between a gallery or an artist selling art out of their studio. They really honest to God don't they don't know the difference and they much rather connect with the artists directly. So the only people who really care about like, Oh, if you have a gallery or not, is other artists, you know, regular people don't understand different kinds of art, let alone different kinds of galleries. And you're like, Oh, this gallery sort of lower tier, and this is like a really hot shot gallery, regular people don't know that. I mean, big, huge art collectors might understand that, but you're talking about not even 1% of the population. So when you really think about. The value system that's sort of in place for artists, it's kind of all bullshit.

Dee Tivenan: 18:23

It's I think it's antiquated and it fits into this negative self-talk that we were talking about that fuels rejection.

Jen Tough: 18:32

Absolutly.

Dee Tivenan: 18:32

Oh, I'm not represented, therefore I'm not good enough. Okay. Period. Again, with the rational side, a lot of people aren't represented by galleries and are doing very well and moving to, you know, goals a little bit more, or a little bit more of an existential way of thinking about this. Why am I really painting? I mean, people are really painting because they're getting something out of it from their heart, their mind, their soul, you know? And do I want reinforcement and allacades sure. I'll take those. I'm not about that. But I think for most artists. If, if they never sold something, they feel a little bit bummed out, but they're not going to start, stop being artistic. This is something that's in oneself. And I, and I think we have to remember that. And we met, remember to be careful with these negative self talk expectations. I should, I should be this far by now. You know, I should be represented by a gallery. I should be making more money. Someone should have noticed me. Those kinds of thoughts just lead us to feel like failures or whatever, versus, you know, I am where I am and this is where I should be there. Your, your trajectory is different than mine. And you line up a thousand artists in the room and we're all different. I see that with my friends, we're different ages. We have different needs. We have different time availabilities, different incomes, and that all plays into it. So again, we can, we do this in our lives, so I'm not separated being a person and an artist, you know, where, how we can exacerbate or rejection or hurt by our expectations and our self-talk. So I I've been thinking about this since our last talk and I, you know, I, I, my first words were rejection, ouch, that I'm adding the piece rejection opportunities. Now I think there are a lot of opportunities with rejection, and it's important to focus on that too, because we're going to be rejected again. You know, I mean, that's just life, but. One thing about rejection is we get desensitized to it. It's like being exposed. The more that it happens, kind of the less that it hurts, if we are in our rational kind of adult mature minds. And if we go to our re irrational minds, just get that stop sign and hit ourselves on the head and bring ourselves back. But, you know, it's like anything else that, you know, if I'm afraid of driving on curves, the more I do it this does have a personal story because I had poor depth perception and Kevin thinks I'm going to fall into the ocean, which has a possibility. But anyway, but the more I do it, the more I get comfortable with it, the more rejections. And I know, you know, you're doing something with a hundred rejections. It's good to kind of have some humor with it and realize it doesn't have to hurt so much. Again, it's part of life we've been rejected. Our whole life also, I think there's a lot of opportunity to grow and learn from rejections. Okay. So I didn't get rejected. I'm looking at this other work. And a lot of times I say, God, it started good work. I can see why I didn't get rejected and or why did get rejected then? Okay. There's some things I can learn to do different with that and an opportunity to maybe I'm applying to the wrong places, you know? So, you know, depersonalized, you know, feel the rejection at first, feel your feelings. I'm annoyed, I'm angry, I'm sad. I'm mad, blah, blah. Okay. Deal with them. Because the only way with our feelings, we need to go through them to let them go. So feel them, and then come back to the rational, thinking about rejection. It happens. It's not catastrophic. It's not a deadly illness. And what's the opportunity for me here. What am I going to learn? And if we love, we're going to learn something. You know what I mean? Any thoughts? What do you think?

Jen Tough: 23:05

Well, I think with COVID and after COVID, but the art world's going to be like afterwards. I mean, I have some guesses, you know, a lot of galleries are gonna close, artists, gonna you know, need to take these different paths that you mentioned. There's all these different ways sort of into the art world. And there's also all sorts of different kinds of art worlds. You know, it depends on if an artist wants to sell more to interior designers and sort of go in that path if you know, an artist, you know, wants to be, you know, strictly, you know, exhibition and sales and that way, and sort of take a more traditional path. But a lot of these, you know, these trajectories. Of the, sort of the idea of the, you know, the path that you're going to go down, this sort of regular trajectory where you're going to, you know, enter juried shows you're going to get into more and more as you, you know, as you get better. And then, you know, you get a gallery, maybe another gallery in another state and you sort of keep, you know, that's the sort of normal trajectory and those are those are going to change dramatically because a lot of galleries are going to be closing. But the other thing is, is that artists are going to have to sort of let go of that expectation of that normal trajectory because the world is now changed. And without letting that go, there's going to be a lot more sense of rejection or loss. And, you know, beating yourself up. If you're not sort of following this path, if you're not getting signed by a gallery, if you're not getting representation. And you know, like you said, in the beginning, there are so many different ways into the art world and social media and the internet has completely changed the art world, you know, for galleries in particular. This idea that selling directly is a bad idea that putting art for sale on your website is a bad idea as an artist and putting prices on there as a bad idea. That's, that's, that's crazy. That's like following, you know, falling into that normal trajectory that normal idea that someone else is going to do all that for you being, you know, a gallery, right.

Dee Tivenan: 25:05

Who would make those rules? I don't know who was there, Mr. Mrs. Gallery in the 1800 to make us up.

Jen Tough: 25:12

Exactly. And the only people, the funny thing is, is that the only people who really. Sort of put any value or weight in that sort of normal trajectory are other artists. And when you realize like your market, isn't other artists, your clients, your customers, your collectors for the most part are not other artists, it's people, other people in the outside of the art world, basically. So, you know, when you, when I think when people, if people were to understand that and artists were to sort of, you know, embrace that idea, There's not going to be as much rejection or this feeling of, you know, I suck and I shouldn't be an artist and blah, blah, blah, and, and really you know, understand that there's all different trajectories that you can take. You know, when we, when we moved to Santa Fe, when we first started looking for a house, this will, this will have a point in a second. We there's a lot, you know, there's a lot of artists here and there's a lot of older people here, a lot of people come here to retire and a lot of retired, you know, retiring artists. And we saw so many houses when we were looking to buy a house that were filled with artwork. You, people had died and they had piles and piles of artwork and it was so upsetting to me, because I felt like, Oh, you know, and the family was saying, Oh, well, you know, we don't even know what to do with all this artwork. I'm talking like garage full, you know, garages full of artwork, storage areas, full of artwork. And it was the most sad thing to me. And I really worry in all honesty..

Dee Tivenan: 26:50

It was all left or what was so sad about it for you?

Jen Tough: 26:53

I was sad because I felt like, you know, why isn't this art out into the world where they holding themselves back, because maybe they were afraid of rejection. Were they waiting for a gallery to come along and swoop them up? Because that was the only trajectory that they thought that they could take, which is usually what happens. And so, you know, people, I think use items, maybe sometimes artists use that as an excuse, like, Oh, well I don't have a gallery. So, you know, I'm just gonna I mean there's a whole bunch of reasons I'm sure, but I just found it so profoundly sad, just the sheer amounts of art. And I just think it's, it's such a shame that if people hold onto these ideas, like this is the only way that I can sort of get into the art world, like through a gallery or through representation and not go out and do it themselves because somehow doing it themselves as like lower or something like that. And then what happens when you take that approach? You're going to end up. Dying basically with, you know, storage spaces full of art and

Dee Tivenan: 27:48

they have to get rid of it.

Jen Tough: 27:50

Yeah. And it's, it sucks for the family too. Right. But but mostly that they just didn't try. They're afraid of rejection in one way or another, or doing things differently or afraid of doing things on their own or it, you know, it was one, it was that holding themselves back, not allowing, you know, maybe because some of the work I'm telling you, like, I remember this one house that this woman, it was like the woman who died and her artwork was every, it was incredible. And I was like, geez, you know, this is really, why haven't I heard of this artist? What did that, you know, anyway, there's I know there's a lot of moving parts to that. It's not quite as simple as what is, as what I'm saying.

Dee Tivenan: 28:26

It does tie into what we're talking about, Actually and fear of rejection. So what one point that you're making that I think is really good. What, whoever made up these rules, that we don't even know who they are anymore. They're not fitting. For these times, you know, so let's toss those out and use rules that fit for me, that fit for you as a gallerist. Fit for me in my stage of life and take that risk. The other part is, you know, Y Y you might see a lot of garages full of paintings, as people are afraid to take the risk. You know, again, because rejection hurts. It doesn't have to hurt that much. It hurts, but there's a way to work through it. And there's a way to think about it differently. And yeah, I always say what's the worst thing that can happen if I get rejected. Okay. The very worst thing is I'm going to get hurt feelings for a little while. Then I'm going to talk to my friends and I'm going to make some bad jokes. And then I'm going to go paint in the studio, get to make a mess. Really big things are life and death. Rejection is an inconvenience. You have to put it in perspective like that. So you try all these things. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't, it's not different than anything else in life. I mean, you wouldn't think of dropping out of graduate school cause you flunked the course when of course you're going to get a tutor and whatever. So it's not different in life than really, it's helpful to say what's the worst thing that can happen. And really it's kind of goofy because nothing bad. And it's helpful for me also to think, okay, on my death bed, will I be sorry that I didn't take that risk? You know? And you know, I'm not trying to be morbid, but you know, I don't want to have regrets about that because nothing bad is gonna happen if I take that risk. And this is, and again, it comes back to opportunity, opportunities through the self to take risks and grow. And feel good about ourselves opportunities to can connect, opportunities, to sell and opportunities, to become a better, artist paradoxically through rejection,

Jen Tough: 30:42

right. And there's all kinds of rejection that artists take and need to take. And I totally agree with you that, you know, when I'm very, very old, it's one of the things that keeps me motivated. I don't want to regret something. I don't, you know, I don't want to not take this chance because I don't want to be, you know, a hundred years old or whatever. I mean, hopefully, and, you know, look back and go, Oh geez, I should have, I should have tried that. I much rather have a failure or a rejection or, you know, a complete, you know, explosion of, you know, and then, then the regret, the regret is something.

Dee Tivenan: 31:18

Yeah. And the regret is constant. It's not just on our deathbed because every day, if it's talking to themselves, should I, or shouldn't I, then they don't, there's a piece of their, self-esteem get thickets chipped away a little bit. So it's an, it's an every day kind of rejection. And that that's, that hurts. You know, the other piece about rejection, is it self? We are doing this for reasons other than, you know, selling really, or, or, or galleries. And we have to remember that. And that's, that's where our heart is, you know, that's, that's why we're doing it. Or someone else's like, you know, crocheting. 18 million hats or something. There's something that they're getting out of it. And there's something that we are getting out of this that has nothing to do with sales rejection or anything. And we have to remember that.

Jen Tough: 32:24

So we should talk about as well touching on that, the idea of, you know, external and internal validation. And when you put a lot of weight on external validation of your art, whether it's acceptance, acceptance into a juried show, or, you know, getting an email back from a gallery really how much weight should you put in those things? I mean, of course people are going to do that and you sort of need to do that to a certain extent, but I really think that a lot of times why rejection can be so hard. For artists or creative people in general is that they're putting too much weight on that external validation. I mean, really? What does the one show that you didn't get into? And the one juror who didn't select your work, that's one person's opinion at the end of the day, how much weight are people going to put into that? You know,

Dee Tivenan: 33:16

I want to introduce a term interjection and it's a defense mechanism. And what it means is we take everything in and make it about ourselves and fit whether it does or not. And the analogy that I use is if I went to a buffet and ate everything there, I would probably be sick. And I wouldn't even like half of it. But if, and I would be interjecting taking it all in the buffet without discriminating, what fits for me or not. So someone can say to me, Dee, your art is this, this and this. And I can take in the good things and the bad things. But if I don't agree. If I take everything, if you said to me all this stuff, and I believe everything unconditionally I'm interjecting, but I might say, Jen, you're right on this and this, but no, actually that was, I think that was a good color for that. What you're saying doesn't fit for me. It may be right for you though. I'm not making you wrong, but it doesn't fit for me. I need to still use these blues for whatever reason. So we w why that is so important is we separate ourselves from other people's opinions. And again, most choices we make, come down to who we are. We interject all the time to create depression for ourselves. This person says we should have a nicer house, a nicer car. You know, I should get my haircut. You know what, whatever people are always making judgments. And we pick up on that. And that's extrinsic feedback sometimes. It fits, but when it doesn't, we have to literally not take it in, throw it out, whatever we do, because that doesn't fit for me. And that's really important. So coming back to the art world, if I took my paintings to five different people, I'm probably going to get five different responses and that would be fascinating for me. And then at the end of the day, I'm still me and I can only do what I can do. So I have to decide what fits for me. Like someone could say to me, you are such a messy painter, which apparently I am, but I just kind of get in the flow. You saw that at Carol Dalton's workshop, you know, and you know, then I think, Oh God, am I too messy? What's wrong with me. Then my rational side kicks in, this is my moment. This is how I do it. And so you don't want to like work too close to me cause you'll get paint on you, but it's okay. The way I'm doing it. And using, I know this is kind of a goofy example, but. Coming back to what someone says to me may not fit for me. And I'm only going to be happy if I'd follow what fits for me. And I might get advice that I want to integrate because that'll help me grow. And it fits for me. But intrinsic extrinsic, we have to be careful of, you know, shaping ourselves to extrinsic feedback because then we lose who we are and when we're depressed and we don't make the work that fits for us.

Jen Tough: 36:34

Yeah. And I think that what you were saying in the very beginning earlier about the more rejections that you get, you know, that the easier the next one and the next one becomes because you've lived through it. You survived it, you know, you'd been, you've been down this road before it becomes easier and easier. And you know, the challenge that we have coming up in the Artist Alliance to get a hundred rejections and five months, and this was inspired by life coach, Tiffany Han, who we had a conversation with over the summer. And I thought this is such a great idea. And with the community we're going to be able to, and I'm going to be putting my rejections in there too. You know, they might not be like art that art related, but it really is. It's I think it's so beneficial, like a great way to, for the community to help each other be supportive, because it really does sort of take that rejection off the pedestal because rejections are things that we don't, you know, we don't talk about because they're embarrassing or humiliating or, you know, and it really, you know, takes away the power of those. Just talking about it.

Dee Tivenan: 37:46

I mean, I love that one. We should talk about rejections because that's just part of life. You know, my car broke down and I got five rejections today. Yeah. I'm going to talk about it with safe people and we're going to be supportive and I did too, or I didn't or whatever, but you should talk about rejections. Yeah. Take the power out of them. We ju that's just manmade created. The other thing is about the hundred rejections and some people have made collages out of the rejections, add humor to it, lighten it up, you know, and I think humor is important always to laugh at ourselves, laugh at the situation, laugh with others, you know, so yeah. It's, you know, it's part of the deal and it's not catastrophic and yeah. So I, I love what you're doing with that. And I can see like an Artist Alliance, big collage of all the rejections, you know, someone, someone should put that together or whatever, but yeah, it's, it's not catastrophic.

Jen Tough: 38:50

It's. Yeah, it's not an, and actually the truth is, is that the more as an artist, the more rejections that you get, that's great. That's a badge of honor, because that means you're out there hustling. You're working, you're trying, you're getting past those rejections. You're getting stronger. You're developing your thick skin, your learning how to cope with that. And that's all part of it. There isn't one artist or creative person in this world who hasn't dealt with extensive rejection. It's the failure is when you let the rejection freeze, you paralyze, you keep you from moving forward or applying for another show. That's that's the failure that that's where the shame is. The shame. There's no shame being rejected, you know,

Dee Tivenan: 39:39

But let me just jump in a little bit, just taking out. The words, failure and shame. Cause they,

Jen Tough: 39:50

Well, I meant if you don't, you know, it's more shameful to like stop pursuing things, you know, then getting rejected for something you tried for. Do you know what I mean?

Dee Tivenan: 40:05

Yeah, no, I, I know what you're saying. I just want to reframe those words. Well, what, my trigger words, you know, when people get rejected, it feels shame.

Jen Tough: 40:16

Yeah.

Dee Tivenan: 40:17

No, I would reframe it. The sad part is if you stop trying, it's sad for you. You know? I mean, I don't want, I don't want anyone to feel badly because they didn't try, you know, because that's a whole, you know, filled with all sorts of psychological issues, you know? Good. And some self-sabotaging. So I would hope that if someone. And again, there is no failure in the moment we're doing what we're doing and we're learning now. Oh, now I'm in the next moment, but there's no failure in the, there shouldn't be in this process unless we're self imposing it, there should be no shame unless we're self opposing impulsing and that's our irrational, critical parts that, you know, we want to minimize, but the sadness would be if I'm not taking that risk and I want to, then I would suggest for people to talk to someone or talk to a therapist or talk to whomever you can dialogue with and see why you're stuck and what do you need to do to get unstuck? And that doesn't necessarily mean 10 years of therapy. I can see everybody going, Oh my God. But we get stuck all the time, whether it's fear or anger or whatever. And so why aren't they doing it? Okay. I'm I'm uncomfortable doing it, but I'm uncomfortable not doing it. So now I'm going to be miserable. So I think about changes in little baby steps. Okay. Little baby steps. Cause no one takes big leaps. So let's say I want to, I see two shows. One's like a big show and one's a local little show take a little babysit part or the local little show again, what's the worst that can happen. And then take another little baby step. I don't know what that looks like. Maybe it's a new color, you know, maybe it's trying collage you know, the, the shows or, you know what one, I'm making up a number one 10th of this whole process or, you know, there's so much more into it, but no shame, no guilt, but recognize we get stuck. We get stuck in all areas of our life. How to communicate with someone or hard decisions. So this is this isn't any different. Do I want to get unstuck? What do I need to do about that? And I'll do it usually in small, safe ways. Not in scary ways that yes. Okay. Circling back. The sad thing is not to try that's the loss.

Jen Tough: 43:00

Yeah, it really is. And I see that so much, so much our artists being really angry if they didn't, you know, like when I've juried shows and you know that I've had some experiences Dee, where artists were yeah. Really angry and that they didn't get in to a show. And it's, I think it's, it's just putting a lot of value or a lot of weight in one. Event one, you know, putting it in perspective.

Dee Tivenan: 43:39

This is external.

Jen Tough: 43:40

Exactly. And it's, it's, it's impossible for a juror to know. First off you don't even know who the artist is that submitting it's totally blind and you don't know their whole body of work. You're looking at two or three pieces. And, you know, to, to take that as like life crushing or career ending is, is it's really unfortunate and that's, that's the loss. That's the sad, that's the sad thing,

Dee Tivenan: 44:07

Because it's still sabotage and it's hurting themselves. And I'd like people to know is if they feel angry about something, which is a normal emotion behind that, anger is the vulnerability and the vulnerability is the place of change, not the anger that I'm so mad. I didn't get into that show. I worked so hard and I, you know, it took me five hours to get on entry thing a but, okay. So I just like complained. But the vulnerability, the heart is like, your hands are kind of hurt. I really wanted to, and no, I'll take a risk again, but behind anger is that vulnerability. If you want to connect with yourself and or someone else, you know, instead of anyone lashing out at a juror, who's really kind of an anonymous person in this whole thing. You know, the statement is I'm hurt or sad that I didn't get in. I really want to get in. Okay. The next opportunity. Okay. But again, it's not in terms of mental health, that's not healthy for us to hold onto this anger, hold on to this rage, put all the weight on external people, feedback. It's not healthy to interject, to take suggestions that don't fit for me because it won't be authentic, you know? And, and. Recognize that we change in little baby steps, not leaps. And so take that little baby step and ask yourself, what's the worst thing that can happen. Rejection is, you know, it's kind of like brushing my teeth. I'm gonna brush my teeth. I'm going to have rejections, but reframe that in terms of an opportunity. And I think people will find the opportunity and just feel better about this whole process.

Jen Tough: 46:00

Yeah. And sometimes it might be good to just take a break for a little bit, you know, give yourself a little bit of a sabbatical if you're feeling really beat up, you know, and you're feeling kind of weak and squishy and not so good.

Dee Tivenan: 46:16

I like the squishy I'm going with that. It looks let go of expectations. One thing I loved about COVID I didn't love this year of COVID don't misunderstand me, but. I just decided to paint. I wasn't thinking about series. I just want to paint and get better and play and enjoy it. You know, the year was terrible for everyone in so many ways, but I loved the painting part. I took a lot of pressure off myself, you know? And so, yeah, that's where you take a break. We want to enjoy this and maybe applying for shows isn't for you, you know, maybe doing an outdoor, you know, art fairs find what fits for you. Again, there isn't a right way or a wrong way, and you know what status anyway, it's usually from the external and it's fleeting, you know, what's important is how are we feeling good about ourselves and our community. You and I want to put in a plug for the Artist Alliance because the Jen and Todd started because I find so much about different artists and their processes. And I've learned to appreciate different kinds of art that I've, you know, hadn't really seen before and understand it. And there is a lot of support. There's a lot of ability to learn from other people besides the workshops that you put on, you know, so again, that community and getting a real reality check. Look, I, I might see an artist that, you know, it's been an artist, their whole lives and it's wonderful work and they got rejected. Oh, well, you know, okay. Back to the norm, you know,

Jen Tough: 48:04

It's really normal. It's part of the process and. You know, you, you know, like you just said, there there's so many different ways into the art world. You don't even have to do jury shows. I mean, I think when you mentioned rejection and artists in the same sentence, of course, people obviously think, you know, a gallery turning them down or a jury show turning them down, but there's, there's some, you don't even have to do that as an artist anymore. There's there's no, there's no need. I mean, there's you know, there's the, you can go, you can do art fairs on your own. Now there's outdoor art fairs, there's indoor art fairs. There's all different types of art fairs. There's you know, stuff that you can do online. There's, there's so many different ways. There's I don't, I mean, like in all honesty, I really don't know, except for maybe the really big, super prestigious jury national or international exhibitions All these other jury shows that are kind of coming around or exist. I don't, I don't really know how much weight they carry in any, in any sense. I mean, usually, especially with online exhibitions now, usually it's only other artists that are looking at them. I mean, it's, I just think everything's going to so radically change that after Covid.

Dee Tivenan: 49:10

I think is positive. And what you said with Jennifer Perlmutter has said, you know, she's a gallerist that we all know is it's really the connection, the relationship, you know, that helps people. And if the gallery likes their art or whatever, but the relationship, they're not, they don't want to put people in their gallery that they don't have a relationship with. So,

Jen Tough: 49:34

absolutely.

Dee Tivenan: 49:36

You know, so remember that you know, You've always set this it's about the connections. Connections. And so we want to focus on the right things to help, but, you know, overall, we want to feel good about what we're doing, not 24 seven, cause that's not real life, but you know, a lot of this stuff has just manmade created, you know, these rules and expectations or self created, which, and so we should just reevaluate them and see, do we want to go that route? Do they fit for me? No. Maybe for someone else. And what do I need to do to get better as a painter and enjoy this process and enjoy the people. And even if you look like at Artist Alliance, all the members there isn't, the work is so diversified and I think everyone's doing well and I'm not even referring to whether they're in a gallery or they're selling, you know,

Jen Tough: 50:39

Yeah, we actually, now that I think about it, we, that really rarely comes up if someone's in a gallery or not. I mean, sometimes it does.

Dee Tivenan: 50:48

I don't think anybody said that the representative in gallery or, and I don't think anyone's asked.

Jen Tough: 50:55

Yeah. I mean, it's more just about you know, professional and creative development there, that's what everyone's focusing on for the most part. Yeah.

Dee Tivenan: 51:07

So if we can throw out a lot of these expectations that we have for ourselves that don't work and we're, we're rewriting, well, I'm not, but you are, and you're rewriting the world of art and galleries and, you know, different ways of doing it and throwing out some of the old ideas, you know?

Jen Tough: 51:33

Yeah. It's so key because I think COVID is going to really just completely throw a bomb on this normal trajectory idea. So it's, you know, it's, it's going to be interesting. So, so, you know, artists should just try to forget about, like, I should do this. I should do that or should get on this show. I should get in that show. I, I should never be rejected. You know, that's just, you know, that's, it's, it's all do whatever after COVID.

Dee Tivenan: 52:00

Find their way there. Lots of women do it group group with your friends, get together with your friends and do it that way too. That's fun you can put on own art show with friends, you know, you know, you can rent a space, you know, you can do a newsletter, you don't have to do a newsletter. You can, you know, find your way. And that's the way you'll be happiest. Stop comparing yourself to others. I mean, You know, we were probably told that in, in first grade, for some reason, you know, I mean that never works. We always find ways to feel badly about ourselves, which you know, and that's what we don't want to do anymore.

Jen Tough: 52:43

I'm still hurting about the comment about getting rejected from gym class.

Dee Tivenan: 52:50

I want to talk about that later. We might have extra time to work through that. I cheerleading cheerleading. Of course I had a torn cartilage. This podcast is going to go to a whole nother topic Jen and Dee's rejection from cheerleading and the traumas that have ensued soap opera. TV show, We see rejections and opportunities here we are.. You see us next as the world turns.

Jen Tough: 53:29

Yeah, I know Dodge ball. I never got chosen for Dodge ball. I was always, I was, I was always the last chosen. I know I was, I was not a very athletic kid. I don't think, I don't think sports and art go together too well, maybe, I don't know. Were you athletic?

Dee Tivenan: 53:52

I'm very athletic and I've had nine knee surgeries. Oh, one chest surgery, two feet surgeries. Yeah, I was, I was a nutcase because I always over practiced. And did too much. I want to be an ice skater when I was small. And then I got frostbite and turn my cartilage, practicing cheerleading. And then I was training for a marathon. I mean, so I don't have that much trouble with rejection. I do have trouble with like setting too high expectations for myself. And this is kind of funny. We were a friend of mine. We were running and golden gate park training for a marathon. I was on mile 17 and a half and I go, Oh, I feel this lump in my leg. So to make a long story short, the next day I was in surgery and was told I could never run again. I go wait wait a minute. But it, it was actually I'm really back to dealing with loss rejection. It was, I had to, you know, kind of reframe who I wasn't, what I was able to do as in my late twenties, but it was like taking a, a leg off a table and I was out of balance. So. Again, tying it to rejection or loss. Okay. Well, you know, people are dying of cancer. I think I could probably live without running. I was depressed, mad, angry. Why me, you know, and then took up tennis and then hurt my back. But I love play tennis, but yes, I was very rejected or not rejected, very athletic, but I have rejections in other areas, you know, like I said, everybody does, but see, this is what's the early therapist in me. I was a first picked on dodgeball. And then I would pick the last person because I was afraid their feelings would be hurt.

Jen Tough: 55:47

That's because you were sweet.

Dee Tivenan: 55:49

I, you know, these hypersensitive personalities, you know, No, actually, we should do that sometime, you know, have people write down all these rejections that they've had their whole lives and we're, we're really not focusing on it that much. And that's case in point here, you know, do I have my first rejections when I started applying to art shows? No, I can't even remember where my keys are. So, you know, it really doesn't have to stay with us.

Jen Tough: 56:23

It doesn't

Dee Tivenan: 56:25

do you know, do you know where my keys are by the way,

Jen Tough: 56:31

I'm still hurting from my gym rejection.

Dee Tivenan: 56:34

I'm calling you later.

Jen Tough: 56:36

I'm just kidding. Totally.

Dee Tivenan: 56:38

No, you're not. I know. I'm so sorry. That was, I hated the way they did that. Yeah. Okay. Well, yeah. If I ever come to New Mexico, we will play Dodge ball.

Jen Tough: 56:53

I think, you know, when, when you're a kid, I think things affect you a lot more. You don't have that rational thinking.

Dee Tivenan: 56:59

You don't have the maturity for it, and you don't have the life experience and resilience.

Jen Tough: 57:04

Right. And you know, so when people have a rejection when they're older, you know, for an art show, they're adults and they're entering it into an art show. I mean, you know, take it with a grain of salt. It's not going to be like, you're the last one left or something really embarrassing happened to you in high school, or, you know, it's not going to be something like that. I mean, if we could regale each other, I'm sure with thousands of, you know, humiliating stories and yet we still grew up and we're still okay. And we're functioning and you know, so,

Dee Tivenan: 57:31

and. This is where humor's important. Did I ever tell you how to lisp? And in second grade I was, I had the best time with it. I got to be pulled out in second grade with a really nice speech person, but I, you know, it was kind of cool, I thought, but, you know, but so let's just like really move on to the next thing. And laugh about it and have support again, the big things in life and our life and death, we know them. If we're not reminded of that this year, I don't know how we're, how we're going to miss that. That's others inconvenience. So I couldn't run the whole marathon. It was an inconvenience, made a lot of jokes about it, you know, that's annoyed for a while, but you know, so keeping that in perspective is really an important thing and keeping it in perspective. With our artist friends, and this process is really important. We want to have fun. Well, thank you. And I am really sorry about gym class

Jen Tough: 58:46

and it's, I've gotten over it. Play Dodge ball anymore.

Dee Tivenan: 58:54

We won't have you be on a Dodge ball team. Thank you for inviting me.

Jen Tough: 59:01

Thanks for coming. It's good to see you.

Dee Tivenan: 59:03

Oh, it's so good to see you.

Jen Tough: 59:05

All right.

Dee Tivenan: 59:05

Tell Todd. Hi.

Jen Tough: 59:07

I will.

Dee Tivenan: 59:08

Thanks Jen.

Jen Tough: 59:11

Simultaneous waving. That's so good. In know, Bye Dee. Thank you so much for listening and supporting this podcast. Your support means everything. If you'd like to learn more about the Artist Alliance Community, send me a question or learn about other events or projects coming up, please visit my website at www.Jentough.gallery. See you next time.