New Ways of Leading with........Latha Poonamallee

This week on the podcast I am joined by Dr Latha Poonamallee .  She is an Associate Professor, Chair of the Faculty of Management and University Fellow at The New School, tech founder and diversity equity and incusion expert. Her  research, teaching, and practice have been singularly focused on creating radical change to build a more just world.

Expansive Leadership: Cultivating Mindfulness to Lead Self and Others in a Changing World: A 28 Day Program (Routledge, May 2021) is Latha's new book that disproves and dismantles the old, white ways of leadership, reimagining it as an inclusive lever that serves organizations better.

But it wouldn’t be A Dog Called diversity if we didn’t start with a more personal story about Latha’s upbringing, her move the to US to study and her decision to have a baby alone, complete with all the challenges this brings in a conservative Indian family. These experiences inform her purpose and her work.

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:08

Welcome to the fourth series of A Dog Called Diversity, a podcast where we explore the themes of diversity, equity and inclusion through sharing stories of personal and powerful lived experiences. I'm your host, lisa Mulligan. This week on the podcast, I'm joined by Latha Poonamalli from New York City. She's a professor and diversity, equity, inclusion expert, with a new book that dismantles the old ways of leadership, reimagining it as an inclusive lever that serves organizations better. That serves organisations better. She is an Associate Professor, chair of the Faculty of Management and University Fellow at the New School, as well as being a tech founder.

Speaker 1 0:51

Latha's PhD research, teaching and practice have been focused on creating radical change to build a more just world. But it wouldn't be A Dog Called Diversity if we didn't start with a more personal story. We learn about Latha's upbringing, her move to the US to study and her decision to have a baby alone, complete with all the challenges this brings in a conservative Indian family. These experiences inform her purpose and her work. Welcome to the podcast, latha. It's so great to have you. Welcome to the podcast, latha. It's so great to have you, thank you.

Speaker 2 1:26

Thank you for having me. I look forward to this after our first call.

Speaker 1 1:32

Yes, yes, and I love that you're joining me from New York, which is one of my favourite cities. It's so cool. Yeah, I'd like to start by learning a bit about you. It's so cool, exactly. Yeah, I'd like to start by learning a bit about you and where you grew up and how you grew up. I wondered if you'd talk a bit about that first.

Speaker 2 1:54

Sure, you know, I grew up in India and I grew up in Chennai, in the south. I grew up in Chennai in the south in a traditional household and family and, of course, chennai is really close to Singapore. Yes, yes, it's quite close to Singapore, and it's kind of funny because I think the first time I ever saw a VCR was someone who brought it from Singapore.

Speaker 1 2:39

Oh, wow, wow. Singapore often leads the way with some of the techie things.

Speaker 2 2:46

Yes, yes, and also there is I think there used to be and there still is a lot of Tamil people from India in Singapore.

Speaker 2 2:59

And so there has always been people working there or, you know, coming back or travelling or something like that. And so, yeah, so I grew up in Chennai when it was still called Madras so it was the name before it was decolonized or reclaimed for its pre-colonial name, and so, and then I, you know, I worked there. I was there for a little while and I was working in a company and for a couple of years, and then I decided that I wanted to get a PhD in organizational behavior, and so I came to the USS and I got my PhD at Case Western Resolve University in Cleveland, ohio, and afterwards I have actually lived here and while I was in the program I also had my son, who is now 19.

Speaker 1 4:05

Now hold on. You've got to tell me about your son because you I guess you you're a bit different in in how you decided to have a child, so tell us about that I did.

Speaker 2 4:15

it was kind of interesting, actually, because when I was, you know, I had a, I had a birthday I don't remember it was 30th or something and I had gone out to you know grab a drink with a friend of mine, and he had said so, now that he's, like you know, some years older than me, so I had just entered the 30s. He was what do you want to do now that you are are like in your 30s? What is it going to be? And it was kind of a surprising thing when, uh, you know I the answer just popped out of my mouth. Like you know, I actually learned about it after I said it. I said I wanted to have a, I wanted to have a baby, by which time I was actually married and divorced, and so I chose to be a sole mother by myself.

Speaker 2 5:19

When I was in the program and I was very fortunate I had a really good community of friends, and my professors were just like, really supportive too. They were wonderful. Actually, my advisor used to keep a little basket of toys, because I used to bring my son when he was little to the campus all the time until, of course, he started, like you know, running and opening doors, then he I couldn't keep him. He was used to come and, and so that that was I's, I would say, a really wild choice, as you know, like my, because it was very difficult for my family and my parents to kind of like deal with this because it's such a unconventional kind of a decision and it was very difficult for them to deal with. And I've had, like you know, I mean like we started it over time, but I've had several conversations where, like the thing is that, how you know, and for them it's more like because I think it really comes with the territory of being a kind of a person that pushes a boundary right.

Speaker 1 6:48

Yes.

Speaker 2 6:50

You push it and then that doesn't mean necessarily like your closest people are ready to take that step, and then it's kind of almost funny. It's like I always tell my parents that I don't know how you never realized that you raised me in a certain way. I mean, they raised me with a lot of traditional kind of Indian culture, yet at the same time, to really be independent, to you know, to acquire education, to value education, to acquire financial independence and to value that, then how do you not expect me to be independent?

Speaker 1 7:27

Yes, Do you? Know I have a similar, different situation. But my parents, you know, told my sister and I that as long as you know we worked hard, we could do and be anything we wanted in life, you know. But you know my parents are not happy that I live overseas from them and it's like, well, hold on, you can't teach me one thing and then expect another.

Speaker 2 7:55

And I think it's kind of like one of those things that I think it took them and me trying to understand that you know a lot of things that they gave me actually set the foundation to go for who I want to be and at the same time, it's obviously there's a lot of growing pains in these situations when you are breaking boundaries and when you are kind of you know the first person in your cohort to say to do something very different and because, like my mother would say, not even celebrities do this and I think you know so. So, yeah, no. But at the same time, I think it's also a testament to the fact that sometimes you really have to listen to your own intuition, not like I was. You know it was, it was not. I won't say it's a risky because I had an education, I mean of I was an immigrant here as a student. So there are a lot of financial resource challenges.

Speaker 1 9:07

Yes.

Speaker 2 9:08

It's not like I had money or like you know, the way the US system works is that if you're a student, you cannot actually work off campus, and so it limits the opportunity that you can. Actually, you know how much money you can make, and if you're working student jobs, you can only make so much money. And then to be a kind of a parent of a young child in that time with not much family support, since I didn't have any family here and so you know it's not risky, but it was definitely a stretch. Yet, at the same time, when I look back and I think that you know, obviously I'm very glad I did that, but also I draw a lot of times the strength from that when I kind of, like you know, run into something that is challenging or I feel very overwhelmed, I always look back, think like, hey, you know what, like you did this and you know so it's definitely so.

Speaker 2 10:08

It's a everybody doesn't have to do these choices. But I think that some things that you think are really overwhelming or challenging or difficult, but if you really strongly go for it, because you're kind of honoring your own intuition and your own need to be who you are, and and if you're willing to then put the work. It doesn't mean, like you know, things just happen. There's a lot of work and I remember, yes, and my son John won, and somebody like a friend of mine was chatting and she was asking how is it going? I said, like you know, I think with kids is that the year is quick, the days were very long.

Speaker 1 10:55

I think that certainly applies when your kids are little, and I remember that saying all the time when they were little yeah.

Speaker 2 11:03

But I think it's true for almost everything, right, anything that's worth doing is not going to be instantaneous. You want to build a business it's going to take time. You want to build some creative engine it's going to take some time. You want to build a community effort it's going to take time and it sometimes feels very long while you're going through it. But I think you know, if you feel that you're truly, if you're truly kind of honoring and responding to your own calling and what you want to do, and I think that is like because I look back and I think I cannot imagine, like how did I do that, uh? But I think, uh, it's, it's really truly, because when it is, when you're aligned and when you're kind of listening to what you need to do and what you're called to do, uh, I, I think that you do get kind of some superhuman strength, uh, yeah yeah, I really liked when you were talking about.

Speaker 1 12:09

You know, if you have a calling and I'd I'd love you to talk a bit about um, how you decided to do your PhD and and and what topic you chose. Could you talk a bit about that?

Exploring Leadership and Organizational Change

Speaker 2 12:21

Sure, you know, I mean like, of course, like it'll date me. It's a long time back, right, and so before my PhD, I had my, I had an MBA and I worked in, you know, in a consulting firm and then in a company which was really a good place for me. I had excellent bosses in India, and. But then I was looking at, kind of like you know what's my future trajectory, and what I realized was that that was not the ladder that I needed to climb. I really looked at, like you know, what does my future growth look like and where does I think I'm going to get my fulfillment, and feeling the meaning of you know what contribution means for me. And you know I support CEOs and I'm a CEO because I started a company. But in terms of, like you know, I looked at the past and I'm like you know, I really have no major desire to kind of climb the ladder become a vice president, become a CEO. I think that was just not something that appealed to me. Become a CEO, I think that was just not something that appealed to me and I realized that I really wanted to kind of create a space that I was able to also have the opportunity to reflect on things and kind of, you know, think some theoretical things that can have an impact that's very different, that can have an impact that's broader in terms of you know, I think growth can happen in several ways. Like you know, some people like to grow up the ladder and have a magnitude of impact that looks different, that you know, instead of managing 100 people, they will manage 20,000 people or they will have 20,000, you know employees and things like that, and I think it's a very personal choice. I really absolutely respect people that make the other choice and, you know, climb the ladder and really fulfill their potential and make amazing contributions. Because I really do genuinely believe that. You know, being a good manager, at whatever level, being a good manager, it can be a very noble profession because you actually affect lives, right, yeah? And even if you're not affecting lives as in like, you're not going and starting like a non-profit philanthropic foundation or anything, just the people that work with you you're creating a non-toxic, good workplace and a place that they kind of come and collaborate and work together and enjoy their lives together, their working lives together, and create something meaningful and take back home the same kind of attitudes and good values. I think it's an amazing contribution to be able to build something of an organizational culture like that if you're a manager. So I think it's an amazing contribution to be able to build something of an organizational culture like that if you're a manager. So I think it is a very noble profession that way.

Speaker 2 15:10

But it didn't seem to be the one that I was very interested in in terms of the administrative ladder. So I wanted to kind of that's kind of how I went to my PhD and I was very interested because before the PhD program I had led a huge change initiative in the company and so I was very interested in understanding change and kind of using my own experience to guide my study. But as I more and more got immersed, then I realized that what I was very interested in is like how do you make change happen that is fundamentally, radically different and I don't know if it's because I am a kind of a fundamentally radically different person from the culture that I grew up in possibly challenge the fundamental assumptions of how anything is organized. And and from a theoretical perspective, if you're going to challenge the fundamental assumptions, you need to actually understand what the fundamental assumptions are in any organizing system right, like what are the values and what are the processes, what motivates people, how do you? And so, in that sense, like the organizational behavior is a really good field for me because it allowed me to kind of move from a macro to the micro, to understanding the dynamics, versus looking at like a psychology degree, for example, in individual level analysis, and so my research was based on basically asking that question of, like you know, understanding radical organizing for fundamental change.

Speaker 2 16:43

I looked at three social movements in India and in three different settings, and so I came up with some theoretical models and research questions that I answered, and so then I started building some work in that and then from there, like you know, I was also because part of change is obviously leadership and right.

Speaker 2 17:08

So, you know, I think to me is like they're kind of tied together so deeply that and it doesn't have to be like a leader, as like the great man, but in terms of understanding, like how an organization can create a culture where people are motivated, they cohere around some values or vision, they cohere around creating a certain kind of outcomes for betterment of all, and so that is kind of what my PhD research was, and over a period of time I think my research has evolved into where I think of two things, which is like I think you cannot change the outside world without changing the inside worlds of people in terms of people's own beliefs and mental models and behaviors. So that's been one stream of my research in looking at you know, how do we, what kind of mental models do people hold, and how does that shape their way of engaging with the world? And then the other piece is that you really do need structural changes in the world too. Structural changes, right, like you cannot just like get everybody excited about like you're going to change, you're going to change.

Speaker 2 18:16

And then, like you know how many programs that people have been there, where they go and get a very excited two days of like exploration and things like that, like team building and everything, and then you come back really nothing changes in the organization. Nothing changes because, because they haven't resourced it appropriately, they haven't changed the structures they are not putting in, say, for example, like you want to make it a more hospitable place for women to flourish. And then, are you actually changing the way you hire people? Are you changing the way you look at job, patient, job sharing, career paths, and what do you value in the organization and and so so you know. So I think to me those things kind of go together, but both the outside and the inside, and and that's kind of how I also landed on the, on the book, yeah, so tell me about your book so I've been teaching.

Speaker 2 19:15

you know I trained under some really fabulous professors in my, you know, my PhD program, like Dr Richardatzis, who is kind of like very well-known in emotional intelligence and formal leadership literatures, and so one of the things for me was that you know, I was trained in this model called competency development model for leadership training, and the competency development is like, very much like behavioral model, right, like you know, like what kind of behaviors do people demonstrate?

Speaker 2 19:50

and and I think that I really love that model, uh, for one particular reason that it was the first one that actually made leadership development democratic. Right, it is egalitarian, it's acceptable to everybody. You are not necessarily, like you know, the leaders are born versus made. Uh, competency model is like you can make people can choose to become leaders, developing their own style and with an understanding of it is that you need to do big to become a better leader. And so, combined with the emotional intelligence and competency models, were what I was trained in.

Speaker 2 20:29

So one of the things, even as a PhD student or late stage PhD students, I kept asking was that, you know, everybody knows by now that emotional intelligence is so important, but how do we actually train people in emotional intelligence? There's not much for it, right? Most of our academic curriculum across everywhere is very much focused on just cognitive development and not on emotional development, and it is not like all of us are equally endowed with it and we all were. You know, not all of us have emotional intelligence naturally and some of us need to actually develop it and there are not that many tools for developing it. So I actually did like another research project with another company that actually uses like a, you know, cognitive restructuring, using an app model, to develop some emotional intelligence.

Speaker 2 21:21

So I tested that and when I was doing that it's one of those weird things that when I was doing that and it was actually a pretty decent, good model, it's a good tool to do this and I suddenly realized that, you know, like, many of these models are very much focused on changing behaviors, not actually hearts and minds. Yeah Right, come across a certain way, not necessarily have compassion or have empathy in your heart, but to show up as if you have compassion, as if you have empathy. And so because it becomes a cognitive skill, it's not an experiential skill, it's not an experiential quality of a person, it's a cognitive skill that I know if I have to come across emotional intelligence, I have to ask xyz questions of lisa so that she will think that I'm emotional intelligent. And so when emotional intelligence gets disconnected from the heart and any kind of morality, it can become a pretty, you know, effective tool for basically instrumental ends to manipulate people.

Speaker 1 22:47

Yeah, yeah, I was thinking as you were speaking. You know, when, in organisations where we're trying to build inclusive cultures, you know we're trying to change behaviours, we're not necessarily trying to change hearts and minds. I mean, I always want to change, I want to change people's belief systems, but you know, I sometimes think that's not for me to do, it's for that individual to think about what they're doing. So often in organisations we have, know, behavioral frameworks, we have codes of conduct because of how we want people to behave in workplaces and and to build inclusive cultures, we want them to demonstrate respectful behaviors. Um, but I have I don't. I don't know if we always try to change people's hearts about something.

Speaker 2 23:42

So your research is really interesting. I don't think that I'm not, like, against behavioural change. I think it's very important, yeah, and in fact I say sometimes like I have trouble with when people say, like, like, be authentically who you are.

Speaker 2 24:01

because what if the person is authentically a misogynist? What is the person? Yes, that's so true. Okay for them to be fully who they are, no, I don't actually care. I want them to treat everybody respectfully, even if that means, like, that's what they are, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, that's such a good point.

Speaker 2 24:21

Yeah, but the problem is, I think that when there is no inner change, the outer change alone, uh, will slip back.

Speaker 2 24:32

Yeah, in right condition, right, in a different condition, in a different organization, for people that behave a certain way will slip back to what their comfort zone is.

Speaker 2 24:50

They don't actually change inside, and so that is kind of, you know, combination of like there are no tools to teach emotional intelligence to students, because I've been teaching leadership and emotional intelligence for a long time, but most of the time I'm saying that this is very important and that this is going to be the one that's going to, you know, distinguish, like extraordinary performers from average performers, and it's class, culturally proven that it's important.

Mindfulness Beyond Corporate Instrumentalism

Speaker 2 25:11

But how do you actually develop it? There's not much education or tools in that, and then also, I think you know that's not been the focus of most education anyway, that you're not talking about any education, and so that is kind of how I thought oh, you know, like I have been a personal mindfulness practitioner for a very long time, uh, and so it took me a long time, kind of like to think, oh, maybe I should try putting some mindfulness aspects in my leadership development curriculum, and so I started trying that like a while ago, and then people are responding to it really positively and very positively actually, and so some of the students would start like, you know, like bring their girlfriends, bring their roommates to the class because they wanted them to experience that, and I thought, oh, there is a real kind of a hunger and a need for people to do this.

Speaker 2 26:18

Uh, yet at the same time, uh, you know, around the same time as when many of these companies had gotten into the mindfulness bandwagon- yeah for, like you know, google has something called search inside yourself, uh, and many of these corporate type of mindfulness programs that are happening, and one of my challenges with those uh was that um, um, that a, that were, um, mostly focused on like just instrumental ends, like, can you be more focused, be more, you know, develop more focus, develop more attention, which is very important, you know, be less stressed and whatever. But it was not really about, like, for instance, like, did Google really change their culture because they implemented mindfulness, or like individuals who were kind of feeling less stressed, which is very important, but it's not necessarily, like you know, enough to make an inclusive culture, for example. And so that is kind of how I started developing these models and frameworks and I've been teaching this for a while in different contexts, these models and frameworks, and I've been teaching this for a while in different contexts, and both in terms of in the classroom, but also with the clients and and in workshops and for different types of people. And so I figured, like you know, I just wanted to share that where I didn't want I'm not like very interested in kind of making that into a training or a consulting business I wanted this to be available for people that want to use it for themselves. For you know, like some people have, like, for example, I can adopt the book for people that run leadership circles, because the book kind of lays out the foundations, but it also provides kind of like a 28-day plan that you can put out in an organization or in a book club or a leadership circle or a part of an OD intervention or a part of a leadership development intervention, and so I wanted to kind of lay it open and to some degree demystify it so people can actually use this and without necessarily having my presence or uh yeah, yeah, you know, like you don't need, like really, a mediator. You just take the book and start reading it and try something on your own, practice it and then try it in your practice, like if you're a consultant use a couple of exercises, take a couple of exercises, take a couple of frameworks and see what works for you and where do you encounter resistance.

Speaker 2 29:04

And usually, like you know, like you know, and I think to me one of the key things I talk about in the book is that I advocate for kindness and curiosity, right, because when we are raising some very difficult questions or when you're sitting down to kind of meditate, then you're coming to kind of face you cannot really escape, but you have to face your own dark side, uh.

Speaker 2 29:30

You have to face your own emotions that are not very pretty, uh, and and you have to come to terms with it or you're part of, you know. If you're thinking about like a diversity, inclusion type of initiative, then you are looking at who you are in your own context and what your heritage is, and sometimes, like our heritage is kind of muddled up with a lot of shame because you belong to an oppressive, oppressor group, or shame because you were in an oppressed group, or fear or you know so many different things. And I think what happens with mindfulness practice is that you start at least, like you know, developing a bit of a kindness and and I call it curiosity, because you want to really observe your own mind, yeah, and to look at okay, what are we? What's going on with me? And so without what's going on with me and the self-awareness, it's very difficult to be emotionally intelligent.

Speaker 1 30:35

That is so true when, when you speak about mindfulness, do you mean meditation or what do you mean? A concept that's broader than that?

Navigating Diversity and Inclusion Challenges

Speaker 2 30:46

I, I do mean a concept that is broader than that, even though I came to the practice through meditation, uh, from my own cultural background, and uh, and and, and you know so and so that is, like you know, for me the easiest place to start is actually in breathing meditation. I am like you know, I was trained in the mantra meditation, but in meditation and mindfulness space, I think it is much broader than just the one meditation and even with that you have, like you know, one is the open awareness meditation and the other is the focus. So the open meditation allows you to be present to everything in the environment, whereas the focus meditation is asking you to kind of focus on one thing, whether it's your breath or whether it's. I joke sometimes saying that the mantra can be like you know your best friend's name, because it is a kind of a tool for you to come back to the present moment. So broadly, the mindfulness and contemplative way of engaging with the world is to be able to pay attention to the present moment.

Speaker 2 32:07

Right, because we are so caught so many things all the time. And can we actually pay attention in the moment, to the present moment? Because this is like the one real moment that you can see again, and again, and again, even if you make mistakes because we are all human, we're going to make mistakes and and, and you know, most of the spiritual traditions for mindfulness come from the understanding that we are all one, that we are united in this tapestry of life, that both the oppressed and the oppressor are in me. But those are very difficult questions to contemplate and I think we need a bit of self-compassion and a compassion towards others, because it's very easy, I think, especially in today's kind of a climate where there is an urgency and a need for justice and restoration, and I think it's very important at the same time that urgency can become reactivity, yes, right, where we are not discriminating of the nuances, and it's much easier to kind of like you know, and then you know, for example, like, since you're an organization consultant working in DEA cultures, the reactivity sometimes shows up as like tokenism, right, oh yeah, no, like people are complaining that we don't have, say, enough women at senior level positions. We'll just hire one person from outside and make them a vice president of something or a executive of something, and there we solve the problem. And that, to me, is a reactivity. That, to me is the inability to actually look at the systemic issues in a patient way and understand the nuances and saying like, for instance, in the US statistics right, the African-American population is 12% of the population, and if you look at entry-level positions in corporations, that's actually representative, they have 12%, but as you go up the ladder it's much, much less. Level positions in corporations that's actually representative, they have 12 percent, yeah, but as you go up the ladder it's much, much less. And so then you know you really need to then ask you don't solve the problem by just bringing one black woman and calling her the chief diversity officer. You really then have to look at how does the whole system work?

Speaker 2 34:38

Where is the pipeline leakage? Right? Like, if there are 12% in the entry level, and why is the same 12% not reflected at the top levels? Why is the 12% not reflected at the board level? And where do these people go Because they aren't coming in? And there are some actually, that is such a good question. Where do these people go because they aren't coming in? Yeah, right, and there are some.

Speaker 1 35:00

Actually that is such a good question because a lot of the research. So there's a big piece of research that happens in the US every year over this very problem, that entry level. We're getting diversity and I think it's Lean In and McKinsey who do the research and they show that then the first level of management diverse people drop out of organisations, but where do they go? Because they're not going to another organisation. Otherwise we wouldn't have this problem, right.

Speaker 2 35:33

I agree. No, I think that one is what I at least like from the women's research on women in organizations, I think, is that many of these women start their own businesses. Yeah, because they, you know, they want a certain kind of comfort in lifestyle.

Speaker 1 35:57

Yeah.

Speaker 2 35:58

In terms of, by which I mean, like you know, the ability to work-life integration, to prioritize family, even necessary, and things like that. So I think I have read statistics that women-owned enterprises in the US actually employ more than all the Fortune 500 companies combined, because there are lots of small businesses they want and I think that you know there is, there is like you're absolutely right, where do they go? And? And then there is a definite trend that we see also in the Gen Z, that they are willing to give up, they're willing to leave money on the table for autonomy.

Speaker 1 36:44

Yep Right, and we're seeing Gen Z and millennials not even really going into these big organisations. They're going like I don't want to be part of that. I don't see how my purpose links what they're doing. They don't want to be part of that. I don't see what how my purpose links what they're doing.

Speaker 2 37:01

They just start their own businesses, like they just exactly exactly, they start their own business or they join startups, or they join like like-minded kind of people or they want to be in the gig economy, um, and then, of course, like you know, there is like definitely gig economy. And then, of course, like you know, there is like, definitely gig economy has its challenges because, you know, you don't have a job security, you don't have union protection, you don't have other benefits, so, no, I think, but, but it's a very but I I'm, I'm an optimist, uh, despite uh, all this. Because I'm an optimist, because I think that we have an opportunity, yeah, with the pandemic, with what, as a word, that we've all gone through, yeah, that we have an opportunity to change the way we work and to change the way we lead and question ourselves and our own priorities of, like, how much profit is enough profit and how can we actually make decisions that are different, that look better for other groups that have not been always privileged in these decision-making? And also the planet, like you know. Can we actually make decisions that consider that we really do have a planetary challenge? There is no, everybody agrees that it doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 38:39

Like you know, I'm not saying that. Like you know, you have to believe that humans caused it, did not cause it. We don't even have to fight, we just have to see the data and we just have to do the right thing in terms of like you know how do we and you know how do we fix this, or how do we alleviate some of these issues, and literally, like I think that we are at this moment of kind of a liminology that you know we are in between, the pandemic isn't over in some places, it's not over in most places. We know there is a wave coming and we know there is going to be changes happening and we are kind of like you know, we cannot, we. I don't think any one country, any one organisation, any one group, any one society can be safe unless we are all safe.

Speaker 1 39:37

Yeah, yeah. And if we can't, if we can't bring diverse voices together to solve the problem and be collaborative, then we're not going to make it. You know, like that's the challenge I'm really interested. I know that you, aside from writing a book, you still teach and research. How has the pandemic changed? How you've approached your work? Has there been a shift?

Reflections on Remote Work and Leadership

Speaker 2 40:11

I think so. I mean one is that I think I have been one of those not just me, but a lot of faculty because so much of our research does not need to be done in the library anymore with Google Scholar and all the online. I think we have been doing remote work for a very long time. I remember, like in my first job, then some of the senior faculty would be kind of like not even understand. They're like, why are you not on campus every day? And because they don't have to be, and so. So my work has not changed as, like, I have taught online before.

Speaker 2 40:54

I'm teaching online now, but, uh, definitely I most, most of us, have learned that a lot of the world's work that does not involve kind of materiality, which is like you're building something, you're growing something right, or you're, you know, you're probably even growing a culture as a biologist or whatever, like you know, if it does not involve materiality, it can be done online, yeah, and that provides, like this, enormous flexibility and autonomy, and that also means that you know the traditional way of managing people. Uh, I don't know if you remember there used to be a management theory called management by walking around yes, the floor, walk the yeah.

Speaker 1 41:47

What a load of crap that is.

Speaker 2 41:49

Oh my god imagine because that that idea is that you have to put your eyes on people, to manage them, and now they're in their homes. You cannot put your eyes on them, and so either you can do like a surveillance software, which is some organizations do it right, like you have to kind of, like you know, check in, log in five minutes, come back and do this, or you have to trust imagine trusting your people.

Speaker 1 42:19

what a concept. Do you know what I've been reflecting on in the last couple of days? So you know, 2020 was a complete write-off of a year. Like you know, we had remote work, we had lots of challenges, and then I think there was some optimism that 2021 would be a bit different, and I've certainly seen in organizations this oh okay, so 2020 is gone. Everyone back to the office. Now let's get back to where we were. And we now find ourselves more than halfway through the year going. Actually, we've still got a problem, and it's bigger than it was before, and it's affected more countries that can't cope with it, and it's almost it. It feels like and this is going to be a bit woo woo, but it feels like the universe is saying humans, you didn't learn from 2020 and so we're not going to let up?

Speaker 2 43:22

I mean, I don't know the last 20 years years yeah, yeah it was.

Speaker 1 43:29

It's like the universe went okay, everyone has to work remotely as much as possible if they can, and but then organizations going okay, let's bring everyone back. And it's like, no, no, you didn't learn. You didn't learn the lesson, so we're going to bring a new variant in and you're going to have to deal with that and then we'll see if you'll learn the lesson. And, um, I'm still seeing organizations still going. Okay, you have to be in the office this many days a week, and it's like, no, that wasn't the lesson. Just I'm like what? Yeah it.

Speaker 2 44:07

Yeah, it's fascinating it is. It is definitely I mean, I kind of you know, I do understand, but I think, instead of thinking that you have to manage by supervision and accountability through supervision, you have to manage by bringing people together and creating a shared purpose and giving room for people to actually flourish and thrive. Yeah, Nobody wants to not do well.

Speaker 1 44:42

Exactly.

Speaker 2 44:44

There's like maybe 1%.

Speaker 1 44:46

Yes, no one comes to work saying I'm going to do a shit job today. No one says that.

Speaker 2 44:55

How long do you do that? I mean, if you're doing that for 30 years, like we all have long careers, if you do that for 30, like we just have like zombies and people that are depressed, right, because how long, day after day, you wake up and you have nothing to do. You have nothing interesting you you have. You're just doing something. So sad, uh, right. And so I think that you know to kind of understand that, like you know to kind of understand that, like you know, I just had a recent article on one of these things, hrcom where I'm saying that, look, you know, trust and dignity and pride and work is not only limited to the top, no, it is for everybody. Which means, like you've you gotta understand that the people that you think need to be managed because you have to drive them, actually take pride in their work. If you create the right condition and reward them appropriately and give them opportunities to learn and grow, then you know what, like they will, they, they take pride in work and they have dignity too. It's not like only limited to, uh, you limited to CEOs or senior level executives that feel like, oh, I've created something so amazing that I will work, and even the CEOs and whatever I say, that look, you got to put yourself as human beings too. It's not like they don't have human needs. It's not like they don't have human needs. It's not like they don't have.

Speaker 2 46:33

Yes, they have a lot of money that can buffer a lot of things. Yes, but but if you scratch all that, uh, they're just people. Yeah, you know emotional needs and challenges and life issues and things like that. They don't have to be cogs in the wheel too. They could actually be more agentic and they define their sense of agency and empowerment around what is the bottom line and how much more money they can make for the company. What is the bottom line and how much more money they can make for the company. But if they also define their own role a little bit more broadly and more boldly, then they can actually bring change and really become leaders in a more people-centered and planet-centered ways.

Speaker 1 47:26

Yeah, yeah, so true, so true. Tell me the name of your book. What is it called?

Speaker 2 47:34

So it's called Expansive Leadership, Cultivating Mindfulness to Leave Self and Others in a Changing World.

Speaker 1 47:47

It sounds like a perfect book for the times.

Speaker 2 47:52

I think so. I you know. I hope so. I did not. Obviously I did write it. I thought about it for a while, but I did write it. During the pandemic the book came out. You know, I submitted the draft in 2020. So I had nothing else to do. I was teaching, but it was no life other than work and home.

Speaker 1 48:18

Yeah, do you know, I think 2020, for people who could I don't. You know, 2020 was hard for so many people, but for some people it was an opportunity to do something amazing. Some people didn't have the mental health to do that or the resources to do that, but some people did and for those people like you writing a book so cool.

Speaker 2 48:45

I was here in New York during the peak.

Speaker 1 48:50

Yes, yeah, you were the worst hit city at the start absolutely so no, I think that the trauma is very real.

Speaker 2 49:01

Uh, you know, like you said, like it's coming back and yeah, what are we learning from our past about how we? You know, how we organize things, how we manage things, how we manage people, how we create healthy organizations. Because I think that I think that senior executives have to have intelligence about a healthy workforce. Yeah, yeah, because.

Speaker 2 49:32

I will share over a million people as a planet right. We have lost over a million people. That's a large, it's extremely large number when you think about yeah yeah, and I think as a concept, people would go.

Speaker 1 49:50

that's a lot of people, but for people who have lost their family and their friends and couldn't see them before they passed away, couldn't attend their funerals, it becomes very, very personal.

Speaker 2 50:04

It is, yeah, very personal.

Speaker 1 50:07

I wanted to thank you so much, latha, for coming on the podcast. I love the work that you're doing and I will share your book in the show notes. Thank you, and your contact details if anyone wants to get in touch, because I know you're doing just fantastic work in this space, thank you. Thanks for staying to the end. Wasn't she wonderful, such an engaging speaker. If you enjoyed this episode, please give me five stars on Apple Podcasts and leave a comment so others can find it.

Speaker 2 50:43

Thank you.