Discover U Podcast with JD Kalmenson

Discover U Podcast: Art Therapy- How Creativity Can Heal with Sarah Gallop

July 11, 2022 JD Kalmenson, CEO Montare Behavioral Health Season 2 Episode 13
Discover U Podcast with JD Kalmenson
Discover U Podcast: Art Therapy- How Creativity Can Heal with Sarah Gallop
Show Notes Transcript

Montare Media presents Season 2, episode 13 of the Discover U Podcast with JD Kalmenson: Art Therapy- How Creativity Can Heal, with Sarah Gallop, LMFT, ATR

JD Kalmenson interviews Sarah Gallop, LMFT, ATR, a psychotherapist and registered art therapist, and owner of Creative Space Art Therapy, with practices in Los Angeles and Denver. Learn about how the act of creating art with color, line and shape can reveal hidden, unhealed aspects of unconscious material. Once brought to consciousness, these dynamics can be seen, understood, and worked with therapeutically.

Sarah received her MA in Marital and Family Therapy with an emphasis in Art Therapy from Loyola Marymount University. She uses a strength-based approach to work with both children and adults, addressing barriers and encouraging growth. Before starting her private practice, she was Clinical Director of La Ventana’s Adolescent Intensive Outpatient and Partial Hospitalization program in Santa Monica, CA.   Prior to that she worked as a clinical art psychotherapist at Destinations for Teens, where she often used art making as a tool to provide adolescent clients with an alternative form of communication, to help them bypass defenses, and to provide a tangible record of change.  

Sarah has also worked with adults struggling with a range of mental illness, trauma, and addiction, both at Didi Hirsch and The People Concern in Los Angeles, often using art to help them grow, thrive, and live their best lives.

She specializes in anxiety, depression and relationship issues, and offers clients tools to help clients not only feel better but also discover their authentic selves.   She works within various theoretical orientations including psychodynamic theory, cognitive behavioral therapy, and narrative theory. She truly believes in the power of art to uncover truths and to help clients make the changes they’d like to see in their lives.  
 
Host Kalmenson is the CEO/Founder of Renewal Health Group, a family of addiction treatment centers, and Montare Behavioral Health, a comprehensive brand of mental health treatment facilities in Southern California. Kalmenson is a Yale Chabad Scholar, a skilled facilitator, teacher, counselor, and speaker, who has provided chaplain services to prisons, local groups and remote villages throughout the world. His diverse experience as a rabbi, chaplain, and CEO has inspired his passion and deep understanding of the necessity for effective mental health treatment and long-term sobriety.
Learn More about Montare Behavioral Health: https://montarebehavioralhealth.com/about/digital-library/

JD Kalmenson: Welcome to another episode of Discover U, our podcast exploring innovative and effective solutions to issues in mental and behavioral health. I'm JD Kalmenson, CEO of Montare Behavioral Health, a family of dynamic and comprehensive mental health treatment centers in Southern California. I'm honored and excited to introduce you to our wonderful guest today, Sarah Gallup. Sarah is a licensed marriage and family therapist and a registered art therapist. She received her master's in marital and family therapy with an emphasis in art therapy from Loyola Marymount university. She currently has a private practice in Los Angeles called Creative Space Art Therapy. Sarah uses a strength-based approach to work with both children and adults addressing barriers and encouraging growth. She specializes in anxiety, depression, addiction, and relationship issues, and works within various theoretical orientations, including psychodynamic theory, cognitive behavioral therapy, and narrative theory. She truly believes in the power of art to uncover truths and to help clients make the changes they'd like to see in themselves. Welcome Sarah. So happy to have you with us today and thank you for taking the time to talk with us about art therapy and your clinical work. 

Sarah Gallop: Thank you, JD. I'm honored to be here. Thank you for having me. 

JD Kalmenson: To start off with, I would love to hear a little bit about the origins and the history of the field of art therapy. 

Sarah Gallop: So the interesting thing about art therapy is it's really been around forever. If you think about petroglyphs, if you think about cavemen, if you think about the universal language of art in terms of different cultures and religions, and the way they used symbols to communicate, and it was part of their sacred practice. So when we're looking at the history of art therapy, as it exists today, I like to talk about people as pioneers of art therapy. They really brought it to life.  So there was a man named Adrian Hall who coined the term art therapy as he kind of painted his way through healing from tuberculosis. The two pioneers that we as art therapists really refer to most often, one is named Edith Kramer and the other one is Margaret Naumburg. And they started working with art, together with clients in the way that we recognize art therapy today… 

JD Kalmenson: Around when was that?

Sarah Gallop: That was in the 1940’s. 

JD Kalmenson: And the first fellow Adrian Hall who used it with tubercules. So that is fascinating because that's, you know, using this as a therapeutic intervention for a medical condition.

Sarah Gallop: Yes, art therapy is frequently used in children's hospitals and with cancer patients. It can help you to really work through, difficult, layered, nuanced feelings around physical health problems. 


JD Kalmenson: So would you say that it's helpful and it's effective for some of the ancillary behavioral health, psychological challenges that surround medical? Or would you say that it is actually helpful at a physiological medical level? 

Sarah Gallop: That's a great question. And I would say both. Because art is inherently self-regulating. So if you're experiencing any kind of pain, any kind of chronic pain, it can really tone down your nervous system. It can kind of separate mind from body a little bit if you get totally absorbed in the art. In addition, if you're working one on one with an art therapist, it's a way to really explore what's going on for you in terms of these difficult feelings that you may be having. 

JD Kalmenson: Wow. So since the 1940s, has it evolved tremendously until we're the stage where, you know, we currently is in terms of how it's practiced? 

Sarah Gallop: Yeah, it has gone through a lot of evolution. Even probably 20 years ago, art therapy was in its infancy as far as working one on one with people. There were, it was more about maybe analyzing the art or trying to interpret it. So there was a theory that if you put the sun in the drawing, that meant your father, or if there was a hole in the tree that meant trauma, and we've evolved since this sort of analyzation of client's art to the point where we believe that the client knows what's best for them on the inside. And so working with them, one on one in an art therapy session is more about understanding what the art means to them, helping them to interpret the symbols and the metaphors that came from within.

JD Kalmenson: That's fascinating. And I wanna really get to that a little bit later in our time together. 

JD Kalmenson: Before we jump knee deep into this amazing topic, can you share with us what the actual art session art therapeutic session might look like and how would it differ from an art class? 

Sarah Gallop: Yeah. So an art class is usually run by a teacher and the focus is on the product, not the process, as well as there's a certain way to do it. There's a certain way to make this sculpture. This is a technique used for painting. This is what you do with the charcoal. An art therapy session is confidential. So I treat their artwork as I would a clinical file.  I don't show it to anybody else and I let them know that. So they feel safe creating.  It's about like any other therapy. It's about the relationship. So it's about the relationship between me and the client and building rapport to the point where they feel safe. mm-hmm, sharing through art. It's not about making pretty pictures. In fact, sometimes the pictures are pretty intense and powerful and not pretty at all. It's not about being good at art. It's not about the product. It's about engaging in the process and understanding the way it's making your body feel, understanding its impact on your emotions. And being able to reflect upon it when you're finished and looking for metaphors and looking for latent content within that art. 

JD Kalmenson: That's amazing. This is about a process. I love that line. It's about a process. It's not about the product. 

JD Kalmenson: So would you say that it's helpful and it's effective for some of the ancillary behavioral health, psychological challenges that surround medical? Or would you say that it is actually helpful at a physiological medical level? 

Sarah Gallop: That's a great question. And I would say both. Because art is inherently self-regulating. So if you're experiencing any kind of pain, any kind of chronic pain, it can really tone down your nervous system. It can kind of separate mind from body a little bit if you get totally absorbed in the art. In addition, if you're working one on one with an art therapist, it's a way to really explore what's going on for you in terms of these difficult feelings that you may be having. 

JD Kalmenson: Wow. So since the 1940s, has it evolved tremendously until we're the stage where, you know, we currently is in terms of how it's practiced? 

Sarah Gallop: Yeah, it has gone through a lot of evolution. Even probably 20 years ago, art therapy was in its infancy as far as working one on one with people. There were, it was more about maybe analyzing the art or trying to interpret it. So there was a theory that if you put the sun in the drawing, that meant your father, or if there was a hole in the tree that meant trauma, and we've evolved since this sort of analyzation of client's art to the point where we believe that the client knows what's best for them on the inside. And so working with them, one on one in an art therapy session is more about understanding what the art means to them, helping them to interpret the symbols and the metaphors that came from within.

JD Kalmenson: That's fascinating. And I wanna really get to that a little bit later in our time together. 

JD Kalmenson: Before we jump knee deep into this amazing topic, can you share with us what the actual art session art therapeutic session might look like and how would it differ from an art class? 

Sarah Gallop: Yeah. So an art class is usually run by a teacher and the focus is on the product, not the process, as well as there's a certain way to do it. There's a certain way to make this sculpture. This is a technique used for painting. This is what you do with the charcoal. An art therapy session is confidential. So I treat their artwork as I would a clinical file.  I don't show it to anybody else and I let them know that. So they feel safe creating.  It's about like any other therapy. It's about the relationship. So it's about the relationship between me and the client and building rapport to the point where they feel safe. mm-hmm, sharing through art. It's not about making pretty pictures. In fact, sometimes the pictures are pretty intense and powerful and not pretty at all. It's not about being good at art. It's not about the product. It's about engaging in the process and understanding the way it's making your body feel, understanding its impact on your emotions. And being able to reflect upon it when you're finished and looking for metaphors and looking for latent content within that art. 

JD Kalmenson: That's amazing. This is about a process. I love that line. It's about a process. It's not about the product. Sarah Gallop:   Yes. Yeah. At its core. And it's not about other people looking at it, especially for my clients who are people pleasers. It's about making it just for themselves. No one else is gonna judge it. No one else is gonna have a comment about it. No one else is gonna criticize it. It' just yours and it's safe and protected. 

JD Kalmenson: Maybe you could just give us the Sarah version of art therapy. We'd love to hear in your own words, what art therapy is, what it does, who it's most relevant for and who it can help, you know, whether it's best, practiced and done in a group setting or an individual setting. So what would be the description? 

Sarah Gallop: I've worked in art therapy, both in groups and one on one. And we're when we're going through the program at Loyola, we learn the benefits of both. And so when I was working at, I was working at a treatment center, running groups, and it was so powerful working with adolescents. It bypasses defenses. Adolescents are traditionally kind of bottled up and not wanting to share their deepest fears, their deepest hopes, their deepest desires.  For example, I might say to them, if you were an animal, who would you be? If they're not wanting to talk about themselves, and I'll put out clay, and some of them might make, you know, they don't know what they're gonna make. They start playing with the, clay a little bit. It becomes a felt expression of what they're trying to say. And one of them might make a turtle. And so where she might not say outright, especially in a group I'm, I'm struggling with social anxiety, I'm shy, I'm scared. But when she's talking about this turtle, which serves as a metaphor for herself, she can talk about why it feels safer to be in her shell, why it's so difficult to pop her head out of the shell and interact with other animals on the table, so it's particularly useful with adolescents in bypassing their defenses. 

JD Kalmenson: Interesting. So it's really harping on a lot of the subconscious observations that we are not necessarily accessing and in tune with for various reasons, whether it's a defense mechanism or the fear of being vulnerable or the amygdala, you know, being activated. So we tend to live in denial or to ignore those aspects of ourselves. And in this safe space, non-threatening sort of environment of creating art, that ends up coming out. And all of a sudden we look at and we say, wow, here is something that I never knew about myself. 

Sarah Gallop: I’m so glad you brought up the idea of safe space, cuz that is one of the huge benefits of art therapy. When I'm working one on one with a client they've just met me. They don't know me. They don't necessarily trust me. But they can, the art serves as almost like a third person in the room and they can trust the art. And so they're able to communicate, communicate clearly with the art, and feel safe. Because they know it's, it's not me telling them what to do, who they are, it's me walking side by side with them, helping them to interpret what they put on the paper. And sometimes with art, there can be very deep and powerful content. So we, as art therapists know not to, if we see something concerning, we know not to push it until the client is ready, especially with trauma. 

JD Kalmenson: Right. Yeah. And does it help uncover memories that they might not consciously have access to? 

Sarah Gallop: Um hum, definitely.  There's something called latent content and that is the content that comes through after you've made a piece of art that you weren't even aware that you were putting on the paper. And that can be very powerful in helping us understand our subconscious desires, our subconscious needs, what's going on below the surface. 

JD Kalmenson: It's amazing. So to me, it's obvious that we all have an inner rich world that exists at the subconscious level, so we can all be helped by art therapy. My question is that being that the agent of this particular form of therapeutic healing comes in the guise of our artistic creation, does art therapy have more efficacy with those who are more artistically inclined by nature, have more talent with art, have more passion with art. Are they more of a qualified candidate for this, or would you say that it's effect can be universal, and it can help in the same regard, regardless of your preexisting talent and, interest in art in general? 

Sarah Gallop: Ironically, sometimes the trained artists are a little harder to work with in art therapy because they've been taught rules of form and ways to create, and it can be, a little less, what's the word it's spontaneous. They, they overthink it. So we really have to work with when I'm working with an artist, sometimes I only give them like 20 seconds to make something so that they don't overthink it and put too much thought into form and line and content. 

JD Kalmenson: That makes so much sense to me. It's like, I'm thinking about it, you know, some folks who are these in inspirational speakers, motivational speakers, and it's probably the hardest for them to get motivated by those speeches because they do it professionally. So I guess in a similar light, it's like, if you do this professionally, so it's not necessarily going to have that organic sort of subconscious self-expression, you're so you're so trained. Yeah, yeah. Wired to do it. 

Sarah Gallop: That's a great parallel. Yeah. 

JD Kalmenson: Are you able to use it on yourself as a way to check in? 

Sarah Gallop: Yes. I keep an art journal, and I use it every for everything from, if I'm having a client, I'm trying to understand a little better. I might simply draw their portrait and that might help me to understand them on a deeper level. I'll see things that I hadn't thought about verbally. if I'm trying to understand a layered, nuanced feeling I'm having, I'll kind of draw it out. And so it works on me just like it works on everyone else. It's self-soothing at the same time that it's giving me information and putting me back in touch with who I really am. 

JD Kalmenson: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. So my next question is if the metaphors are enabling me to tap into a deeper insight, about myself creating enhanced self-awareness in a dramatic way that I might not have ever realized that would be very effective as what I would imagine to be the first phase of healing of self-actualization, which is having an unbiased unadulterated self-perception, and allowing one to tap into previous experiences and to be able to create a sense of crystal clarity on their life story. But as far as phase two, which is what the actual healing looks like, is that something that you would have to then turn into other modalities of treatment, whether trauma based or, you know, psychodynamic, but to look for the other interventions now that I'm aware of what's going on underneath the issues, the challenges, the memories, the traumas, my fears, my insecurities.  Now that I'm aware of this problem, do I need to turn to another modality, or is there something in art therapy that would actually provide healing in and of itself in addition to the awareness of the challenge and the problem? 

Sarah Gallop: So the wonderful and amazing thing about art therapy is it works side by side with all the modalities. So I can use it with a CBT lens, and that might mean telling a client to simply, show me what your thoughts look like and show me what your feelings look like, and show me what your behavior looks like.  in order to help them understand the very basis of CBT, which is the cognitive triangle. I can use it narratively, so I might have them, we want to retell their story. We want a different outcome. So I might show them how to make a book and book binding and tie it up with string and have them tell their new story in book form. So that, that works really well with trauma and telling the news story with trauma. We might just continue to use it psychodynamically. So we're in session and someone's talking about how they keep sabotaging themselves or something along those lines. I might have them draw out what that feels like. And then what comes up on the paper is not only deeper insight, it's also a springboard for conversation. So if they're not able to say why they feel like they sabotage themselves by eating too much or drinking too much or whatever the situation is, they might just have a block. Like they don't understand more about that by putting it down on paper, it forces them to think using the visual part of their brain which accesses different parts of the brain. So different parts are lighting up, giving us more material to communicate and work with. 

JD Kalmenson: That's so amazing. , tell me if this would be accurate based on what you just described.  It almost sounds like art is this bridge that allows us to access the subconscious and so when art therapy becomes this sort of bridge and medium to in a noninvasive non-threatening non-intimidating manner, allow the subconscious to open itself up to the messages, to the content that we're engaging with at the conscious level. Then all this work has an exponentially greater chance of being felt and, and being absorbed and inculcated in our subconscious. So whether that's with CBT, whether that's with trauma or whether that's with narrative therapy, you're just really allowing an extra seat at the table for the subconscious to be present and partake in this beautiful healing experience. 

Sarah Gallop: Yeah, very well said. I love the idea of an extra seat at the table. It's another way to get a little bit deeper, into the subconscious and also there's a tangible record of change. So a lot of times in therapy, we in traditional talk therapy, people will talk about things. And then one week later they may have forgotten what they talked about. If they don't take notes or may not have really gone very deep, right. When we make art, we can go back and look at the prior week. And also, I sometimes will refer to a certain art piece that a 
client has made throughout sessions, if it's relevant to our work together. And so bringing back that visual brings back all the feelings that were associated with it. 

JD Kalmenson: Yeah, because there's an amazing correlation. I don't know the science behind it, between the visual and emotional memory. All of us would love to have emotional memory with certain experiences. Imagine everyone who has struggles with chemical dependency or other negative bad behavioral patterns would be able to have absolute emotional memory of the regret of the emptiness of all the negative ramifications of that behavior, of that experience. It would prevent us from reengaging in it, right? Yeah. But we don't have emotional memory. Sometimes a visual like can really bring you back there, not just intellectually, but you know, emotionally and psycho and experientially. 

Sarah Gallop: Exactly. I've done drawings as simple as, and if there aren't any art materials available, I can just use pen and paper, pencil and paper. but a drawing that I've used in an art directive that I've used in addiction is as simple as show me what it looks like when you're sober and show me what it looks like when you're high, drunk or whatever. And what comes out on the paper is astounding because they know their life is better when they're sober. They're tired of people, other people telling them why it's better, they know on the inside. So when they, what they come up with an on their drawing is their idea. It's not someone else telling them to be sober. It's not a family member saying your life would be better sober. This is what you're like when you're drunk, it's their own internal, ideas about it on the paper in front of them in a visual form. 

JD Kalmenson: Yes. And there's no question that the visual has so much greater influence and power than over the auditory, you know, intervention. 

Sarah Gallop: And when you asked me, does it work better for some people than others? Yes. The one thing we have noticed is for visual people, visual learners, it does work better. 

JD Kalmenson: That's right. That would make sense. 

Sarah Gallop: And also kinesthetic learners because they're working. Sometimes I have them put their trauma out on paper, rip it up and, turn it over and make a beautiful art piece out of it. And so that's when the kinesthetic somatic movement can help heal it.

JD Kalmenson: Yes. It almost sounds like, you know, what they do at some of the recovery centers with, tearing up the, you know, the trauma letters I'm putting into the fire. It's a very cleansing and sort of, you know, deep, emotional experience of releasing and letting that go.  Is this something that is recognized by the APA, the American psychological association as a considered evidence based or parts of it, more evidence based than others?  How would you describe its sort of its standing in the midst of the backdrop of all other, you know, behavioral health modalities of treatment? 

Sarah Gallop: Yeah, it is. Like you said, more it’s an experiential therapy. It's not considered evidence based just because it's so hard to quantify the research on healing for art therapy.  There's a journal that comes out. I believe it's bimonthly and there is always quantitative
and qualitative research going on, but it's really hard to codify. How, you know, in numbers, how art therapy helps. However, it is recognized as, I don't know what the adjective would be. It's recognized as a legitimate therapy by the APA. We have our own governing board, which is the, ATCB that's the art therapy credential aid board. And you can go onto that site to make sure an art therapist has the letters ATR behind their name, which means registered art therapist and BC, which means board certified art therapist. 

JD Kalmenson: That's very helpful to know, because I think that there are so many people who artistically inclined and go through certain experiences in helping others and it, they call it art therapy, but why they might not necessarily have that credentialed and that, that, that, you know, basis of a curriculum and content that has been certified. 

Sarah Gallop: Right? Yes. And so we don't own the patent on art as art therapists. So we don't, we never say to a therapist, you can't use art if you're working with a client in therapy, however, it's not considered art therapy. So in order to be an art therapist, you have to have, a graduate program. And as we were saying before, a thousand hours of supervised, treatment before you become registered, and then you take a test to become board certified 

JD Kalmenson: That's, that's interesting. And that's very helpful. I wanna ask you a question that's been on my mind, cuz it's something that you referenced earlier in our discussion that the art therapist is not there to interpret the art for the client. Their role is to simply be a guide or be there as a witness and not necessarily jumping to offer analysis of the client's creative output. 

Sarah Gallop: Exactly. 

JD Kalmenson: What, I'm struggling with -- is when a client's coming and they have some type of a distorted thought process, negative bias and that's why they need cognitive behavioral therapy, right? So their thought patterns and their perception is somewhat clouded and obscured, how can they accurately excavate what their unconscious patterns are telling them without an intervention of the therapist's analytical lens, which would lend a certain amount of objectivity to the interpretation. 

Sarah Gallop: A lot of times art is used in the initial stages as assessment. So we're able to see, for example, if a client is always making really small drawings, not taking up the page, to me that indicates depression. Clients who come in, who are depressed, rarely fill the page with bright color, but I'm not gonna tell that client they're depressed. I'm going to keep that in my head and work with that and ask them more questions, stay curious, ask them, you know, what it's like going through their day. Do they have moments of joy in their day? And then I might reference the artwork again and say, “Hmm, can you add any, what do you notice about your art?” Does this say they drew a stick figure of themselves in a house or something I would say, does this image make, how does this image make you feel?  And so their answers are gonna be the springboard for conversation, for me to help them with their depression and then, apply interventions for that depression once it's out, in the talk space, for lack of a better word. And so if I were to say to them, especially teenagers, kids you're depressed, like they would, that would do nothing for them in terms of healing. And so to really help them walk side by side with them to understand themselves that what they're feeling when they don't wanna go out with their friends is depression. That what they're feeling when they go in their room and isolate is depression. So I want them to come to that re realization on their own. And then there's more motivation for change because it's coming from them. 

JD Kalmenson: Right. So you're guiding them. You're not doing the analysis for them, but you're creating the conditions by asking certain questions and creating a safe space for them to be able to uncover these truths on their own 

Sarah Gallop: Yes. And that comes after building rapport. Of course they have to feel safe enough to admit that they're isolating in their room. A lot of clients won't admit that until, you know, several sessions in. 

JD Kalmenson: Right, right. 

JD Kalmenson: As far as the group, the group art therapy and individual art therapy, I know that you said you've done both and it is done in both. Would you say that in a group setting, some of the effectiveness would be stifled given the fact that we're really trying to create a space in which we feel uninhibited in which we feel unhindered in our ability to be paint, to be vulnerable and to tap into some of the things that might scare us on a regular basis. Would you say that being in a group setting might undo some of that or does the group sometimes with the right group create such an intense ambiance where it's, you know, the opposite, like you'll find in a psychodrama group, where the energy of the group sort of escalates the effectiveness. 

Sarah Gallop: I don't think one is better than the other. I think they're different. The advantage of group art therapy is you've got that connection. You, it encourages connection. It encourages the collective consciousness that we're all going through difficult times together, and it strengthens relationships when I'm doing art therapy in a group. I always tell them if there's something sensitive, you don't have to share it. You don't have to tell us what this means. You can add a symbol. That means something only to you. But the magic of group art therapy comes when clients start giving feedback to each other and supportive comments to each other about their drawings. And that doesn't mean, oh, that's beautiful. Art is not art therapy is not about making pretty pictures. It's about saying, oh, wow. I noticed that bird that you put in your drawing almost looks like it's flying away from the trauma or whatever. The other clients notice. And it's amazing the amount of insight they're able to give each other. 

JD Kalmenson: Wow. That's, that's heartwarming. And it makes a lot of sense as well. So what would you like to see for the art therapy and the modality as a whole, in the next few years? What would you like to see as the future of art therapy?

Sarah Gallop: I would like it to continue to get the recognition it deserves. I would love to see it covered by insurance. They're working on that in some states. 

JD Kalmenson: When you say covered by insurance. So you're referring to in, as far as art therapists, private practice, being able to accept a client and engage in art therapy and have insurance cover that? Right? 

Sarah Gallop: Right. So I'm in my private practice, I take insurance because I'm also a therapist. There are art therapists who are not licensed counselors or licensed therapists and they, have a difficult time because they can only accept private pay. 

JD Kalmenson: Sure. So, but, but the interesting thing is that you are a licensed therapist and you're able to charge insurance in the sense that insurance recognizes the work that you do, even though you're doing art therapy. So they're saying that's an acceptable modality as long as you're a licensed therapist. 

Sarah Gallop: Yes. And I, and to be fair, some of the, we don't always use art therapy. It depends what's going on for the client. 

JD Kalmenson: Right. Right. Of course, of course. But, but it makes sense that they are, they're not necessarily currently challenging the, the modality as a whole. They're just saying that this is not any type of an independent, therapy where, you know, even in the absence of a traditional licensed clinical degree, this would be an independent therapeutic position.

Sarah Gallop: Yeah. I would love to see an increased recognition and respect for art therapy as its own unique, modality. 

JD Kalmenson: Amazing. And last but not least, would you suggest any resources for folks out there listening who might wanna learn more about art therapy? 

Sarah Gallop: Yeah. I would recommend going on the American Association of Art Therapy's website. It's full of information about art therapy and how to find an art therapist. If you're looking for an art therapist, you can also Google art therapists near me and see what comes up. And as I mentioned earlier, you can check and see if they have, the letters ATR and or BC behind their names. And that means they're credentialed. There are art therapy groups. There are some art therapy Facebook groups. And so it's really just kind of Googling in your area. 

JD Kalmenson: Sure, sure. This has been amazing. 

JD Kalmenson: Thank you so much, Sarah, for joining us on the discovery you podcast, we really appreciate you taking the time to share your expertise and wisdom with us. How can people find out more about you and the wonderful work that you do?

Sarah Gallop: Oh, thank you. It was a pleasure to be here, JD. I have a website it's Sarah Gallup, LMFT dot com, and I have a profile and on Psychology Today, and I have a Facebook page, Creative Space, Art Therapy and an Instagram account, Creative Space Art Therapy. 

JD Kalmenson: Awesome. And thank you audience for joining us too. I hope you enjoy today's episode of Discover U. At Montare, we want you to know that you're never alone on your journey, and to find out more about our innovative treatment programs, you can find us@monteerbh.com and you can listen to our discovery. You podcast on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Wishing all of you vibrant health in a safe and peaceful day. See you next time.